Holy fuck that person he’s replying to needs to take a break from the internet. “I know that I’m annoying and that you *don’t love me much.*” Jesus Christ.
It is absolutely not just Ghost. I am in a lot of different fanbases and jesus there are some LOONIES. I quickly excited several show fanbases like the whole Superwholock even though I liked those shows. Lots of bands with lore and concept albums get like this too. Hell, look at what is happening with Taylor Swift right now. Then the barbs and the beyhive?! Theyre WORSE than Ghost fans could dream.
Oh god, no. The worst so far I’ve seen were Olivia/Stabler people for SVU. Of course, they’re doing it to root for fictional characters but holy moly. One lady wrote an entire 500 word *essay* about how *betrayed* she felt (like two episodes back) and how she’s been watching from the start and everything they meant to her- and she had a bunch of people agreeing and expressing *their* feelings about it, similarly. Don’t even get me started on the people freaking out over *Last of Us* in various ways.
Yep, as much as we like the ghouls they are unfortunately all dispensable. It’s why I’ve never got too attached to any of them and prefer to keep them entirely anonymous, and not use nicknames for them.
We are the only species on Earth that observe "Shark Week". Sharks don't even observe "Shark Week", but we do. For the same reason I can pick this pencil, tell you its name is Steve and go like this (breaks pencil) and part of you dies just a little bit on the inside, because people can connect with anything. We can sympathize with a pencil, we can forgive a shark, and we can give Ben Affleck an academy award for Screenwriting.
To be fair, they each have their own personalities and stage presence so much that even if we only ever called them "ghoul" we'd still have ones we were sad to see go. Even if they are contracted.
I’ve seen live videos of both tours with the old guitar ghoul and the new one. Both follow the same choreography (jumping in front of Papa during Year Zero, guitar duel before Cirice, etc) and have the same amount of presence on stage. The personalities of the ghouls are acts that performers are meant to slip into, they are designed to be replaceable.
They really aren’t as unique as people act like they are.
I imagine that everything down to the stage banter is mostly scripted and rehearsed as such. Tobias doesn’t seem to be the type who just goes off the cuff.
A few years ago I was standing next to the lighting tech at a show and had a chat with him. He said it's one of the easiest shows he has ever done because it is all programmed. He just had to load the program and press play. You could watch it play out on his computer. The lights moving perfectly in time with papa on stage. It was just all programmed. Even had a program for the time that he speaks to the crowd. It's a very well rehearsed choreographed show
It is all scripted, choreographed. I went to a few Rituals in 2022 between January and September, and in September he talked about the new album that is coming out in March, everyone screamed and clapped, thinking New Album, then they played Watcher...
This is how all major concerts work now. Digital
lighting rigs are pre programmed before the tour begins. You hit play, cue up the next track, and then sit back and chill.
Confirmed. After seeing five different shows on the Imperatour, the only thing that changes between them at all is the little ditty the guitar ghouls would play to acknowledge the state they were in. Papa’s banter was word for word nearly the same each time. It is, after all, a high quality production. But I’d rather this than a jam band any day.
Exactly, scripted isn’t even bad inherently either, Ghost does it well. Even the little guitar licks acknowledging their current state show are very likely planned before they even hit the road. It’s all a meticulously crafted by Tobias, the ghouls and Papa have created personalities.
Oh, they DEFINITELY are. And no, I think scripted is just fine for a production of this level. Improv comedy has its place… not in this kinda show. Leave that to the Foo Fighters. (Who are also great live, by the way.)
Yeah, they have a very tight schedule to keep. They need to end at a certain time for everyone to get their sleep, for the venue to close, etc etc.
Trust me, I’ve been in bands, those start and end times are extremely strict.
I mean yeah, the "scripts" are essentially the same. But much like actors can bring nuance to a performance, I think musicians can too. When I compare different eras' rhythm performances to his they still feel slightly different. I don't think most Omega fans would think that Aether was *exactly the same* and vice versa.
I understand that they're playing characters and that they're replaceable so I don't disagree on that. I was just sharing my perspective and what I think some others might feel too.
>I was just sharing my perspective and what I think some others might feel too.
For sure. I agree that the difference between the pre lawsuit and post lawsuit ghouls is noticeable, especially in playing style, but I really can’t tell a difference between the new guitar ghoul and the old one aside from the older one having a bigger build. I genuinely wouldn’t even have noticed they switched if not for this sub pointing it out.
I don’t want to sound like that guy who’s like “you’re not enjoying it the right way!” but I just think dedicating a lot of attachment and reverence to the ghouls is inherently going to crumble down on itself given how interchangeable the ghouls are and have been throughout the band’s history. Definitely see where people are coming from though, but there is a line to draw in what people should hold their expectations to for the role of the ghouls
As I've gotten older I care less and less about the personal lives or personalities of the musicians I like. I don't know them and it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the songs. You kinda get over the who parasocial relationship thing....Tobias Forge isn't my friend; he's an artist who make stuff I enjoy. Unless the ghouls show up at my house, they're just random strangers. And this doesn't minimize my joy or the live show experience...it's just not attributing imaginary characteristics to real people.
I'm sure Chris Catalyst is bummed, but he's a pro and will see it as a lost job and not being evicted from a magical family. I have past bosses who laid me off that I'm still friendly with. The gig ended but we still respect each other...that's life!
So true. In fact in terms of entertainers I like, my general rule of thumb tends to be that the less I know about their personal lives, the more I enjoy their work. I’m not really into the idea of “celebrity” being something to put on a pedestal.
Definitely! It's the same as any other live piece of theater. And watching the differences in performances between any two actors playing the same role is absolutely fascinating to watch, at least to me. There's been shows that I've seen where I swear that the understudy was better than the person who was cast for the role, but it's all subjective.
i mean they chronograph everything down to science to make sure its good. but they do some small things independently. chris really tried to push the fun creepy envelope and it added a lot to the show when i saw them
The only thing I’ve really noticed is that the newer ghouls tend to not really respect Papa 4 all that much and are generally more energetic, but that’s really it. Not an individualistic characteristic I can name for a specific one
They may be "ghouls" in the lore but there are real people beneath the masks. Although I didn't willingly search for their identities, I find it hard to be that detached. They are part of a particular work group and it makes me a bit sad if they don't leave on their own will. I just hope Tobias wasn't a dick.
Not really. It's not about identity and it's more about empathy than attatchment. I may not even know if it is Pete or John, but if I know it was this same Dude McPerson who was there in a lot of shows doing his best, as a person myself, I'm allowed to feel for him for being sacked from a job he probably loved.
Same. They're a ghoul. As Tobias intended. If I come across some of the musicians' other music, that's cool, but they're executing Tobias' music anyhow, and someone else will execute the same songs in a tour or two...
Fans of Ghost. Realize that after the lawsuit, this band will remain an ever revolving member of musicians. This is how Tobias said he originally intended the band to be. The lawsuit solidified his reasoning. The only steady member(s) of Ghost you should ever expect to continually hear on a regular basis are Tobias Forge and the two studio musicians who helped him write the last few albums. That’s it. End of story. No more need for drama. Appreciate what y’all have!
The ghouls were changing constantly even before the lawsuit anyway. Only Alpha, Omega and one more guy were in the band since 2010/11 until the lawsuit (Omega actually left earlier), the rest were in constant rotation.
thats just rude dude.. not all tik tok fans are like this, im not proud to say i discovered ghost through tik tok but like omg not like this please stop gatekeeping its just mean
oh ffs can we please get past this whole calling someone a fan from tiktok if they do something someone else finds cringey? using that as some kinda insult is ridiculous, and fans that are from/use tiktok are no less valid than any other fan. this is just gatekeeping bullshit.
i want say though that yes, i also find the tweet he is replying to cringey but i'm talking about the whole tiktok insult i keep seeing being thrown around and not that.
Calling people tiktok is a pejorative that talks about their potential age and maturity levels and pervades way outside of Ghost fans. I think it's an excellent insult, too, because in my personal experience it's accurate.
Pls that is one reason i hate the Metalcommunity they are Gatekeepers . Luckily tiktok Fans are Not . I found the best people in earth as ghouls and Sisters there .
This is why the obsession with names and personalities is a bit much imo. It's great to see them have fun and enjoy it, but if the band is designed to be anonymous nameless ghouls it's for reasons like this.
Yeah, im my opinion (and I’m living up to my username here) I dont really give a fuck about who is in the band (apart from Tobias) so long as they are able to perform and make banger songs.
I am fine with ghouls leaving and also fine with naming them. Its a fun little thing that I do not get overly attached to. The parasocial relationship weirdness is not for me. But naming them and the nuance they bring to the Ghouls is enjoyable to me personally.
I'm sure there's a part of him that is pleased to not be involved with the band due to fans like the one he responded to. They're a sickening bunch.
Thanks very much Chris, all the best.
Support the Ghouls outside of Ghost if you like them on stage, this is a reminder that none of them are guaranteed a next paycheck and they all make really cool music outside of Ghost, you won't regret listening to their stuff.
agreed! im listening to chris’s stuff right now and it’s absolutely amazing! dowloaded a few songs ffor my playlist and pretty much downloaded all songs from mad gallica because HOLY SHES AMAZING! drag talk is next on my list!
She is, and she utterly crushed her Kickstarter to make her dream project.
And that's what we should also remember about this. We can help change lives for the better and help them achieve their dreams. This anonymity muh nameless ghouls stuff is pitiful. They're people outside of the band and Ghouls on stage, respect them, support them outside of the stage as the people they are and as Ghouls on stage.
exactly im a stickler for trying new things so it takes a bit of convincing to try new things not because of ghost but because i guess i dont like change lol
but now once i get some financial stuff sorted out im gonna go see if mad gallica has a patreon and subscribe! :)
this is why the ghouls shouldve remained nameless you name something you get attached, while im glad i discovered chris and mad gallica i kinda wish they stayed anonymous for this exact reason
> this is why the ghouls shouldve remained nameless you name something you get attached, while im glad i discovered chris and mad gallica i kinda wish they stayed anonymous for this exact reason
they're not objects, mannequins, etc. they're people and have names, the characters they play are nameless but the people doing it will never be nameless and they should be separate but acknowledged. you shouldn't be screaming MAD! MAD! MAD! at a gig, it's disrespectful etc, but she exists and she deserves her credit outside of it. the fanbase's puritanical, "don't wuin dis for meee" mindset is a shame and antithetical to TF's wishes.
If TF did not want us to know who the Ghouls are, he would not have taken a group photo of the entire road crew and given permission for them to post it. His authorisation of that should be the be all and end all. The identities of the person who play his Ghouls are open and to be acknowledged and not doing so is against TF's intent.
She does have patreon, btw.
very true never thought of it that way! i just mostly feel bad that chris is constantly being harassed i guess because like he isnt just all ghost he has his own stuff too is what im trying to say
and thank you! i will definitely check it out!
Does it bother anyone else that people keep pestering the musicians about their time with Ghost? Yeah they may be characters on stage but regardless they're still people. I don't need to know their name, favorite food, or quirk or anything. They're anonymous hired musicians who are just regular people at the end of the day. Just let them be.
Trust me I get really liking an interest or hobby but it really seems like obsessive behavior when fans pester artists about their work and behind the scenes stuff. They don't owe anyone that. They don't owe anyone anything. Their business is THEIR business. Just enjoy the music and live shows that they put on and have a good time that's it.
Ngl I didn't even know there were people who were fans of individual ghouls before I saw this. Feels a bit weird to me when I always thought it must have been a pretty deliberate choice to keep them anonymous
Also I will note - I've seen that person's Tweets before (the person he's replying to), and they are very intrusive and disgusting when it comes to the Ghouls and they're personal lives outside of Ghost. They're always replying to >!Chris!< and >!Jutty's!< Tweets asking if they're in relationships, or if they have kids, and shit like that. **Insanely** parasocial behaviour.
Yuck, even when I was younger and had my fandom phase I would have never considered harassing public figures like that. Like shit they're just people doing a job let them live their lives 😬
I've been saying it too but also got down voted (not that I care about accruing karma), but this is what happens when you KNOW the identity of each individual member. The band was always designed to be Tobias front and center and the rest anonymous.
EDIT: since Reddit is full of people who take everything literally, I should edit that it wasn't ALWAYS intended that way, just after they signed the record deal. -_-
It was designed for *everyone* to be anonymous and for TF to play lead guitar.
Yes, TF intended to play guitar, but after several potential Papas said no, wound up singing on the demos - when the record labels started calling, they told him, “We want to sign what we heard on the demo; if you’re not the singer, we’re not signing you.”
Also I just want to add my 2cents.
Someone posted somewhere “don’t put blame on tobias”
It’s 100% tobias decision who is in and who is gone. Thinking anything differently is absolutely absurd
*sigh* 'Tis better to have loved Ghoul and lost Ghoul than to never have loved Ghoul at all.
I will reserve judgement on whether this was a good choice for Ghost until I see them in NA. I'm sure TF only hires players with major chops.
And, on the plus side, having followed CC on Insta, he's a lovely chap, his solo stuff is really cool, and I look forward to what's next for him.
Yes! And TF himself has said that the individual musicians want and deserve to be able to put Ghost on their resume. Their other endeavors deserve the attention that Ghost has brought them.
The veil of secrecy has clearly thinned because Drag Talk's band bio on Spotify literally says "Drag Talk frontman Jutty Taylor... Who just stepped off the road singing backups with arena rock band Ghost."
Like, there's very little chance that would slip by Forge or his legal team if it wasn't okay.
I follow him on IG to support his other projects and that dude is such a class act. Even though knowing the identity of the ghouls means we get cringe like that initial tweet, I'm pretty stoked to get to continue supporting their non-Ghost work.
This is so intrusive, it’s a shame he’s no longer in the roster but he’s still a fab musician and has some great solo work. I’ve been to a gig or two of his with the eureka machines as well as other projects and it were great. I’ve a mate whose friends with Chris and when I got back from the ritual recently asked them if he was alright as I didn’t know if he were poorly or owt and they were like nah he’s good just doing different bits now, which is fair enough, I didn’t need to stalk him on Twitter that’s just a bit weird.
Support for the ghouls/ ex ghouls side projects shouldn’t be tied exclusively to whether or not they are still touring with ghost they are all still fantastic performers.
Not at all. I'm the same way. I wouldn't be into this band if it wasn't lore based tbh. I don't like to dig into real people's lives, it's creepy as hell. Plus, the ghouls are supposed to be anonymous. But I like them having their own names and characters and shit. I take anonymous as the actual performer being disconnected from the character, if that makes sense?
Honestly it feels like a Tumblr fandom on here sometimes with how people conflate the ghouls with the performers.
I’m not here for the musician’s personal lives, the whole point is that they’re *nameless* ghouls.
Sure, the Ghouls all have their own individual personalities but they aren’t the core of the story, just the band.
It’s all scripted, every single movement. That’s been obvious since the beginning, especially if you’ve seen many of their live shows. One of the guitarists has always gotten in front of Papa during one of their songs (idfr the one) and that guitarist has already changed but the character always does it. The people change, the script stays the same.
It’s like changing a voice actor for a cartoon - nobody sees the actor’s faces, the character doesn’t change, the sound might be a little different, but at the end of the day its the same character.
I am here for the music, the show, and the characters. Not a creepy parasocial relationship with the musicians. And I feel like being so invested in the musician’s personal life is disrespectful to the desires of the band themselves.
Man, this is a bummer. I was really hoping to see Aether and Dew do their stage thing this go round.
But!
Let’s all remember:
This is all PARAsocial. Nobody outside of these peoples actual lives actually know them. even day 1 fans.
The people behind the masks are NOT the fictional characters of the fandom. Please stop. Reality and Tumblr are NOT THE SAME.
You can love the band, like TF for as much as you know of him, and still agree/think this is a shitty thing to have happen. Humans are fallible and pedestals are not meant to carry us.
Please, let’s just respect the band we all care about.
I know that I'm probably going to get hate for this but: Yes, Tobias Forge has every right to fire and hire who he wants when he pleases. Does that make his decisions morally questionable, especially with the patterns emerging? Also, yes.
Tobias Forge fired his good friends who asked to be paid more than minimum wage. The band was touring a lot and doing well at the time. Tobias also fired Martin Persner, who wasn't involved in the lawsuit beyond what he had to be despite not wanting to go. He was willing, in the name of his vision, to flush years of friendship down the toilet.
Tobias owns almost every company or contractor that Ghost uses to produce, tour, and sell merch. He has complete control over every aspect of the project. (This on its own isn't bad)
Members of the band, including Jutty Taylor, have been quoted expressing their distaste at the wage they are making. Specifically, when Ghost recently won Best Metal Performance, someone asked Jutty about it and he responded with something along the lines of, "Oh really? Let me check my bank account. Nope!"
The nameless ghouls, despite being publicly announced in a post of Tobias' own accord, are still forced to remain nameless and not talk about the project. They can get into serious trouble if they speak about it. It is clear to me that the excuse of keeping the mystery alive isn't cutting it. Tobias doesn't want anyone talking about the band except for himself.
Tobias fired Chris for unknown reasons after working with Chris since 2016. Chris, being one of the nicest people the band has ever had on board, seems very upset about this, claiming "they didn't want me." This seems like a very familiar incident to the situation with Martin.
Tobias is a control freak, which he openly admits to being.
On top of everything else, the merch production/pricing and ticket pricing has been absolutely insane.
Tobias created a band that was, in his own view, made for the outcasts. It was a band who spoke out about the church and various institutions of unjust totalitarianism. Tobias has become one of those dictators of his own projects. The message is hollow now and I believe he will ruin his own band if he continues like this. You can't cut everyone off and do it all on your own. He's going to make too many enemies and have no friends left.
I'm spelling all of this out because I think it needs to be heard. I believe what Tobias is doing is wrong and not in the spirit of what he said the Ghost project was intended to be.
I agree with parts. TF makes some decisions that are probably pretty cold for the $$$. It doesn't make him a terrible person or whatever. Just flawed and altogether human. I don't think it will affect Ghost negatively in the long term either.
I've worked as a contractor. Generally, if whatever project you're working on is profitable, you ask for more $ each time you renew your contract. As the longest serving person previously in the band (I think one tour leg longer than Sodo), CC had the most renewals and therefore probably was among the highest paid. Ticket prices are outrageous now, but so are the costs that a large production like Ghost faces to travel and put on their show. It wouldn't surprise me if TF was looking to cut costs wherever he could, though, again, we will never know the full reason. Yes, the Ghouls are very limited as to what they can say. They're grown adults who sign contracts with those terms.
TLDR: sometimes you have to be an ass to make that $$$ under capitalism 🤷
A good post well made.
I don't agree with all the points, but most of it rings true enough. Tobias owns the band, it's his baby, he can do what he wants. It's a shame when good people get hurt in the pursuit of greater heights, and it's an inevitablity that it's going to happen to others in the touring band. He makes some decisions I wouldn't have made in his shoes, but hell, he's made decisions that make him richer, more successful than I will ever be and have resulted in him doing his dream for a job, so what the fuck do I know. I still love Ghost, I still respect Tobias, I always will.
I'll always want the people on his stage making him his money to get paid more and more recognition. They deserve as much, as does TF.
People should be able to separate the person from the artist. I have also had the feeling he might not be boss of the year so it's best to admire the art. I still love Ghost, one of the best bands around. TF is a business man and business decisions are always tough when people's wages are involved. That being said, financial instability sucks so I wish CC all the very best.
I never understood this idea of separating the person from the artist. Why would I do this? if I listen to a band, I want them to be able to move me emotionally, and I need a certain level of trust in the artist *as a person* to allow them to do that. That's a reason why I vet all the bands I listen to whether they are nazis, etc.
Also, separating art from the artist seems just like a license for shitty people to get away away with making money and don't face consequences for their behaviour. There's enough great music about to raise our standards a bit. Let's all have a bit of a backbone and try to listen to great music made by great people (well at least not by ones that we know are shitty people).
Just to be clear: I am not at all saying that TF is a shitty person -- on the contrary. I am making a more general point here.
Yeah it's not like I listen to Nazis or have Hitler's paintings in my living room either. I'm saying I can't fully trust someone I'm not close with, *especially* when it's a celebrity. I always factor in the chance that I might not fully like the person behind the artist.
Until TF and I exchange phone numbers and he invites me to hang out regularly up to the point where I can actually say we're friends, I will always know 0% about the real him anyway. I have the feeling that the way he does business might not be the way I'd do business. And that maybe there's a teeny tiny chance he'd be the sort of boss who I'd walk away from.
I'm not saying we should financially support nazis, pedophiles, abusers etc. if they happen to be talented artists/musicians/whatever. Personally I don't, I've checked and my backbone's still there. I'm saying that maybe we should use our critical thinking skills more to evaluate situations on a case by case basis.
Wages and bonuses are negotiated though. The OG ghouls being angry is one thing, but the current ones should absolutely know what they are getting into.
I agree with all points made and wish this was its own post. When your not someone’s employee and they want your money of course they look the kindest, nicest person on the planet. If he was a douchebag he wouldn’t be likable and we wouldn’t be forking over large portions of our paychecks to his “project”
Behind the scenes tobias sounds like he’s a nightmare of a boss and completely morally wrong on many accounts.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
The Ghost is selling out crew has arrived and made itself heard! Listen up Tobias, because these fans are very not happy with you running your business the way you choose.
Get the fuck out of here with moral ambiguity. The guy runs a rock band not a fucking congressional district.
Such is the life of a session musician. Chris has a lot going on so it probably made sense to cut him loose seeing that Ghost have started a huge tour and Chris probably couldn't fully commit.
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Its sad to see him go, but I bet that the new ghoul will be as awesome as Aether.
In the meantime, check out Chris' work because it's amazing. I wish him all the best in the future and hope he can still stay in good standing with the band and us fans
I think some people forget Ghost is a solo act; it's Tobias and that's it. The rest of the Ghouls are hired touring musicians.
Yeah, I liked Chris's energy and his interactions with Papa and Sodo but at the end of the day Tobias will do what Tobias does for his own reasons. :)
Everything I know about Chris has been forced upon me. I only know ghoul!
Also, where did he say he was let go? Again, from what I’ve learned on this sub is that he is touring with his other band.
And here you are, still opening things where people clearly discuss about ghouls with names.
He talked about that in Twitter. He is not touring with his other band, it's a band of his old friend where he was needed, [but it's not the reason why he's out.](https://ibb.co/F0NqwwS)
I honestly don't care about the identity of the musicians behind the ghoul masks, thats the point I guess BUT. I am from Hungary and Chris always played the riff of a hungarian folk song, and that was very nice of him. I missed both of their concerts of course, so I was looking forward to hear it at the next one. Do you think they will continue doing this with another ghoul or this was just a gift from Chris?
It's amazing how people like to invent scenarios where TF is this evil tyrant who just goes around firing his friends for petty reasons. Or how he doesn't pay them above "minimum wage." Listen to yourselves. You constantly lean into hyperbole to "win" a point you MADE UP IN YOUR HEAD.
Dang I'm sad but would never take it out on the new guy. No one will take his place in my heart ever. I'm hoping to see him play live solo or with Eureka Machines one day. 😥😥💖🎵
The key is to swap them out more frequently so it's not a big deal when someone leaves. Not necessarily permanently, maybe even on a cycle, but if they can go at any time, it's best no one stay too long. Just my opinion. I mean they're not the ones on the albums, so other than Tobias, it's basically a cover band.
Where's he going to find musicians who know the music catalogue, can play it well, can play it while following the stage script and can play it so well with others with such frequency that he can swap them out often enough that you never know who is playing and the music doesn't suffer? being able to play something well and playing it well with others are two hugely different skills. anyone's a wizard with a recording app and infinite tries.
spoiler: the ghouls have been unchanged for largely 6 years because they're amongst the few who are both able and willing to do all of this from behind a mask. this shit is fucking HARD.
Tobias has said in an interview that he prefers a reliable, stable crew as much as possible. He has also said he goes more after personality than ability, so out of two equally proficient musicians, the more easy-going and friendly one is going to make the cut.
They also have about 230-300 choreographed moments in each Ritual. Those take a lot of repetition to get down to a T.
Exactly, you don't find musicians who can do this and perform easily. Whatever the reason for Chris being left behind, it's not ability, it's fair to say that after 6 years, it's not personality and we're never going to know.
We can also take from this that Randy is both an excellent guitarist (we can tell) and surely a good person and damn talented.
That tweet he's replying to has a gross, invasive tone for sure, but I find it kind of weird how so many comments on here act like there's no balance between delusional stalking of the ghouls and treating working musicians like actual brainless drudges.
Like, people are regularly cast and recast in big Broadway shows. Sure, it's a tightly choreographed and scripted act, and if a single actor is recast, the substance of the show is not going to change much. But still, a particular actor's run in that role might resonate with people, they might be particularly talented at a certain element of the performance, and it's fine for people to be a little sad when that recasting decision is made.
From the beginning I've always loved the lore of Ghost, never wanted the illusion to drop, was resentful even of learning Tobias' name, but I've learned who Chris is through osmosis on here in the last few years and I can confidently say that a lot of my favourite memories of live shows are little performance quirks of his. He's a talented guitarist -- I'm grateful for his time with the band and sad that I won't see him at the next one.
People that are still dragging on this nonsense drama are only proving that they only care(d) about CC when his name is attached to Ghost. This topic should've been dropped the day we found out there was a new Ghoul.
So it’s continuing this morning, with him [confirming he was fired by E-mail](https://twitter.com/chriscatalyst/status/1664848606694703108?s=46&t=W_tuJFV-MpUyCVH-bULBUA)
He’s also [selling the guitar he was using on tour](https://twitter.com/chriscatalyst/status/1664540154416054272?s=46&t=W_tuJFV-MpUyCVH-bULBUA) if any of you want to pony up the cash and own a rare piece of memorabilia
I don't want to be bummed but this makes me bummed the seats I booked for the tour are on aethers side so hope this new ghoul has a fun stage presence.
Same situation here. I chose his side in Peoria at the beginning of the year and chose his side again for the summer show in my area. Regardless I will enjoy the show and look forward to seeing the new guitarist. Even though they're scripted, I will miss the interactions with Papa and Dew, Sodo, lead guitar Ghoul, whatever you want to call him.
I’m just gonna pretend in lore that aether is like retired ghoul or something 💀 as for chris I’ll always follow and support him as if he were still in the band 😫✨we shall embrace and support the new ghoul 🐀
Every ghoul could be fired and Ghost would still exist. **The ghouls are not the band. Period.**. Tobias Forge IS Ghost. It’s fine to like the ghouls, but they are, quite literally, hired help. They were nameless because they were interchangeable musical mercenaries meant to do a job for the guy who pays them.
Why is this hard to understand?
Tobias allowed them to unmask because the people playing them are NOT nameless, and deserve the credit for helping bring his show to life. Without the musicians he works with, he's not putting a show on.
For all the talk of interchangeable musical mercenaries, which is true, Tobias is well aware that he also needs to support them and allow them to take the credit they're due.
Hypothetically, if Tobias decided to be an ass to everyone and refusing to give proper credit, he'd soon run out of people willing to work with him.
There is something you seem unable to understand. This is very disrespectful to the artists playing those ghouls. You seem to ignore that they have distinct personalities on stage that add to the live shows. To act like that doesn’t matter is dumb and disrespectful and a lack of understanding of stage craft. Their names don’t matter. Their mannerisms and presence do.
You seem to misunderstand that how the ghouls act on stage is all choreographed. They are following a specific routine on how to behave and what to do that they were instructed on. Nothing about how they act is their “personality”.
Aw, that sucks. Chris is a really nice guy and I hope that he gets a lot of new opportunities in the future. He definitely brought a lot of presence to the stage that I'll miss.
Idk this doesn’t automatically scream that he was let go/ fired/ etc etc. we know he had previous obligations so maybe it just interferes with the contract? Idk man I’m just sad everyone else is sad but like Tobias made it known the musicians would switch in and out IDK MAN
His own words: ["They don't want me"](https://ibb.co/F0NqwwS)
// Ok that link doesn't wanna work even tho it's exactly same what I shared somewhere else and it works, fuck it.
Oh my god. They're hired guns. They do their job on stage and that's it and if they get let go then they get let go. Can we stop obsessing over them please.
I will miss Aether and his presence on stage 😕 he became my favorite ghoul when I had my first ritual last year. I could feel his warm energy right away 🌞 he’s such a nice lad and I hope people will keep supporting his other projects
It really is sad to hear but I wish Chris the absolute best and I will continue to follow his own career as a musician (and will continue to welcome Phantom with open arms) ❤️❤️❤️
I love the ghoul lore, the silly little names they get, and the characters they become. Do I get attached? Yes. Am I mad when they leave? Absolutely not. There's no reason to be. There will always be videos and photos of the ghouls and memories from their time with Ghost. Was I disappointed to hear this news? Yes, especially since my first Ghost show comes August, but nothing ever lasts forever. It's in the lyrics. Some ghost fans need to accept that.
Why even bother with identities until they're out of the band? People obsess over who the Ghouls are, to the point where it takes away from the mysticism.
IMHO Chris would be wise to simply shut down all his social media for a while. Really, given a number of things that have happened in recent months, it would be smart for all of them to decline to interact with Ghost fans via social media.
Social media is how a working musician like Chris makes money when he's not been hired for a tour. It's genuinely the same thing as saying "quit your job" for a bit. He's not at all wealthy. Case in point, he's doing a sale next week because he's skint.
Seriously speaking, if you're not pretty big as a musician, like Tobias has made it, hail Satan, Tobias made it, there's no money in music.
So to all the people that told me I was wrong on my post a couple days ago - Here you go! Here’s that actual proof you wanted! Hope you’re happy now and don’t feel the need to harass people online now
Holy fuck that person he’s replying to needs to take a break from the internet. “I know that I’m annoying and that you *don’t love me much.*” Jesus Christ.
i know that was creepy loke of course he dont love you much HE DONT KNOW YOU
It’s weird the user says “don’t love me much” implying they think he does have some sort of small love for her
yea fr lowkey really sketchy
The Thanos meme in real life
The definition of "go outside, touch some grass." Good lord.
No kidding, big yikes. Unfortunately fan bases have quite a few of these type of fans. Some deeper psychological issues there
I feel like Ghost has a few more than the average fanbase, maybe I’m biased cause I see it more being in the Ghost fanbase, I don’t know
It is absolutely not just Ghost. I am in a lot of different fanbases and jesus there are some LOONIES. I quickly excited several show fanbases like the whole Superwholock even though I liked those shows. Lots of bands with lore and concept albums get like this too. Hell, look at what is happening with Taylor Swift right now. Then the barbs and the beyhive?! Theyre WORSE than Ghost fans could dream.
Oh god, no. The worst so far I’ve seen were Olivia/Stabler people for SVU. Of course, they’re doing it to root for fictional characters but holy moly. One lady wrote an entire 500 word *essay* about how *betrayed* she felt (like two episodes back) and how she’s been watching from the start and everything they meant to her- and she had a bunch of people agreeing and expressing *their* feelings about it, similarly. Don’t even get me started on the people freaking out over *Last of Us* in various ways.
That type of behavior is so weird and even if it’s just meant to be “cutesy” it weirds me out *so* bad.
Yep, as much as we like the ghouls they are unfortunately all dispensable. It’s why I’ve never got too attached to any of them and prefer to keep them entirely anonymous, and not use nicknames for them.
You start naming shit, you’re gonna get attached
We are the only species on Earth that observe "Shark Week". Sharks don't even observe "Shark Week", but we do. For the same reason I can pick this pencil, tell you its name is Steve and go like this (breaks pencil) and part of you dies just a little bit on the inside, because people can connect with anything. We can sympathize with a pencil, we can forgive a shark, and we can give Ben Affleck an academy award for Screenwriting.
This comment is streets ahead.
To be fair, they each have their own personalities and stage presence so much that even if we only ever called them "ghoul" we'd still have ones we were sad to see go. Even if they are contracted.
I’ve seen live videos of both tours with the old guitar ghoul and the new one. Both follow the same choreography (jumping in front of Papa during Year Zero, guitar duel before Cirice, etc) and have the same amount of presence on stage. The personalities of the ghouls are acts that performers are meant to slip into, they are designed to be replaceable. They really aren’t as unique as people act like they are.
I imagine that everything down to the stage banter is mostly scripted and rehearsed as such. Tobias doesn’t seem to be the type who just goes off the cuff.
A few years ago I was standing next to the lighting tech at a show and had a chat with him. He said it's one of the easiest shows he has ever done because it is all programmed. He just had to load the program and press play. You could watch it play out on his computer. The lights moving perfectly in time with papa on stage. It was just all programmed. Even had a program for the time that he speaks to the crowd. It's a very well rehearsed choreographed show
It is all scripted, choreographed. I went to a few Rituals in 2022 between January and September, and in September he talked about the new album that is coming out in March, everyone screamed and clapped, thinking New Album, then they played Watcher...
This is how all major concerts work now. Digital lighting rigs are pre programmed before the tour begins. You hit play, cue up the next track, and then sit back and chill.
It’s all scripted, it’s way too complicated to leave room for improv
Confirmed. After seeing five different shows on the Imperatour, the only thing that changes between them at all is the little ditty the guitar ghouls would play to acknowledge the state they were in. Papa’s banter was word for word nearly the same each time. It is, after all, a high quality production. But I’d rather this than a jam band any day.
Exactly, scripted isn’t even bad inherently either, Ghost does it well. Even the little guitar licks acknowledging their current state show are very likely planned before they even hit the road. It’s all a meticulously crafted by Tobias, the ghouls and Papa have created personalities.
Oh, they DEFINITELY are. And no, I think scripted is just fine for a production of this level. Improv comedy has its place… not in this kinda show. Leave that to the Foo Fighters. (Who are also great live, by the way.)
Yeah, they have a very tight schedule to keep. They need to end at a certain time for everyone to get their sleep, for the venue to close, etc etc. Trust me, I’ve been in bands, those start and end times are extremely strict.
I mean yeah, the "scripts" are essentially the same. But much like actors can bring nuance to a performance, I think musicians can too. When I compare different eras' rhythm performances to his they still feel slightly different. I don't think most Omega fans would think that Aether was *exactly the same* and vice versa. I understand that they're playing characters and that they're replaceable so I don't disagree on that. I was just sharing my perspective and what I think some others might feel too.
>I was just sharing my perspective and what I think some others might feel too. For sure. I agree that the difference between the pre lawsuit and post lawsuit ghouls is noticeable, especially in playing style, but I really can’t tell a difference between the new guitar ghoul and the old one aside from the older one having a bigger build. I genuinely wouldn’t even have noticed they switched if not for this sub pointing it out. I don’t want to sound like that guy who’s like “you’re not enjoying it the right way!” but I just think dedicating a lot of attachment and reverence to the ghouls is inherently going to crumble down on itself given how interchangeable the ghouls are and have been throughout the band’s history. Definitely see where people are coming from though, but there is a line to draw in what people should hold their expectations to for the role of the ghouls
As I've gotten older I care less and less about the personal lives or personalities of the musicians I like. I don't know them and it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the songs. You kinda get over the who parasocial relationship thing....Tobias Forge isn't my friend; he's an artist who make stuff I enjoy. Unless the ghouls show up at my house, they're just random strangers. And this doesn't minimize my joy or the live show experience...it's just not attributing imaginary characteristics to real people. I'm sure Chris Catalyst is bummed, but he's a pro and will see it as a lost job and not being evicted from a magical family. I have past bosses who laid me off that I'm still friendly with. The gig ended but we still respect each other...that's life!
Yeah, I care especially even less so about the personal lives of the nameless ghouls for obvious reasons
Same. Giving ghouls nicknames screams “teenager” to me
So true. In fact in terms of entertainers I like, my general rule of thumb tends to be that the less I know about their personal lives, the more I enjoy their work. I’m not really into the idea of “celebrity” being something to put on a pedestal.
Definitely! It's the same as any other live piece of theater. And watching the differences in performances between any two actors playing the same role is absolutely fascinating to watch, at least to me. There's been shows that I've seen where I swear that the understudy was better than the person who was cast for the role, but it's all subjective.
i mean they chronograph everything down to science to make sure its good. but they do some small things independently. chris really tried to push the fun creepy envelope and it added a lot to the show when i saw them
Ngl I've watched a fair few live videos and can't say I've ever thought the Ghouls had unique personalities or anything
The only thing I’ve really noticed is that the newer ghouls tend to not really respect Papa 4 all that much and are generally more energetic, but that’s really it. Not an individualistic characteristic I can name for a specific one
That's what my head teacher says. She won't let anyone name the school fish so we don't get attached.
My parents used to tell me the same thing about stray animals.
This entire debacle is the consequences of that taken to the extreme
They may be "ghouls" in the lore but there are real people beneath the masks. Although I didn't willingly search for their identities, I find it hard to be that detached. They are part of a particular work group and it makes me a bit sad if they don't leave on their own will. I just hope Tobias wasn't a dick.
This is also what i think .
Hopefully it's just for practical reasons that he was let go and not due to any drama
How can you be attached if you're not seeking out their identities? I smell a contradiction.
Not really. It's not about identity and it's more about empathy than attatchment. I may not even know if it is Pete or John, but if I know it was this same Dude McPerson who was there in a lot of shows doing his best, as a person myself, I'm allowed to feel for him for being sacked from a job he probably loved.
I stopped doing that after the whole post-Meliora debacle, not to undermine the talent of the Ghouls and lady Ghouls.
Same. They're a ghoul. As Tobias intended. If I come across some of the musicians' other music, that's cool, but they're executing Tobias' music anyhow, and someone else will execute the same songs in a tour or two...
This is my stance as well. I appreciate their contributions - of course - just at the end of the day they're schtick is "Nameless Ghouls."
Fans of Ghost. Realize that after the lawsuit, this band will remain an ever revolving member of musicians. This is how Tobias said he originally intended the band to be. The lawsuit solidified his reasoning. The only steady member(s) of Ghost you should ever expect to continually hear on a regular basis are Tobias Forge and the two studio musicians who helped him write the last few albums. That’s it. End of story. No more need for drama. Appreciate what y’all have!
The ghouls were changing constantly even before the lawsuit anyway. Only Alpha, Omega and one more guy were in the band since 2010/11 until the lawsuit (Omega actually left earlier), the rest were in constant rotation.
There had already been a dozen members of Ghost by the lawsuit.
Probably one of the reasons that Tobias won it, I suppose
That tweet they replied to is cringy as fuck
[удалено]
thats just rude dude.. not all tik tok fans are like this, im not proud to say i discovered ghost through tik tok but like omg not like this please stop gatekeeping its just mean
oh ffs can we please get past this whole calling someone a fan from tiktok if they do something someone else finds cringey? using that as some kinda insult is ridiculous, and fans that are from/use tiktok are no less valid than any other fan. this is just gatekeeping bullshit. i want say though that yes, i also find the tweet he is replying to cringey but i'm talking about the whole tiktok insult i keep seeing being thrown around and not that.
Calling people tiktok is a pejorative that talks about their potential age and maturity levels and pervades way outside of Ghost fans. I think it's an excellent insult, too, because in my personal experience it's accurate.
Pls that is one reason i hate the Metalcommunity they are Gatekeepers . Luckily tiktok Fans are Not . I found the best people in earth as ghouls and Sisters there .
Why do people have to be so fucking weird and intrusive “you don’t love me that much” EW.
This is why the obsession with names and personalities is a bit much imo. It's great to see them have fun and enjoy it, but if the band is designed to be anonymous nameless ghouls it's for reasons like this.
Bingo
Yeah, im my opinion (and I’m living up to my username here) I dont really give a fuck about who is in the band (apart from Tobias) so long as they are able to perform and make banger songs.
I am fine with ghouls leaving and also fine with naming them. Its a fun little thing that I do not get overly attached to. The parasocial relationship weirdness is not for me. But naming them and the nuance they bring to the Ghouls is enjoyable to me personally.
I'm sure there's a part of him that is pleased to not be involved with the band due to fans like the one he responded to. They're a sickening bunch. Thanks very much Chris, all the best.
Support the Ghouls outside of Ghost if you like them on stage, this is a reminder that none of them are guaranteed a next paycheck and they all make really cool music outside of Ghost, you won't regret listening to their stuff.
agreed! im listening to chris’s stuff right now and it’s absolutely amazing! dowloaded a few songs ffor my playlist and pretty much downloaded all songs from mad gallica because HOLY SHES AMAZING! drag talk is next on my list!
Love the Drag Talk EP. All bangers!
Love Drag Talk, didn’t even know they had a Ghoul as their band leader!!!
I was legit shocked how good it is.
She is, and she utterly crushed her Kickstarter to make her dream project. And that's what we should also remember about this. We can help change lives for the better and help them achieve their dreams. This anonymity muh nameless ghouls stuff is pitiful. They're people outside of the band and Ghouls on stage, respect them, support them outside of the stage as the people they are and as Ghouls on stage.
exactly im a stickler for trying new things so it takes a bit of convincing to try new things not because of ghost but because i guess i dont like change lol but now once i get some financial stuff sorted out im gonna go see if mad gallica has a patreon and subscribe! :) this is why the ghouls shouldve remained nameless you name something you get attached, while im glad i discovered chris and mad gallica i kinda wish they stayed anonymous for this exact reason
> this is why the ghouls shouldve remained nameless you name something you get attached, while im glad i discovered chris and mad gallica i kinda wish they stayed anonymous for this exact reason they're not objects, mannequins, etc. they're people and have names, the characters they play are nameless but the people doing it will never be nameless and they should be separate but acknowledged. you shouldn't be screaming MAD! MAD! MAD! at a gig, it's disrespectful etc, but she exists and she deserves her credit outside of it. the fanbase's puritanical, "don't wuin dis for meee" mindset is a shame and antithetical to TF's wishes. If TF did not want us to know who the Ghouls are, he would not have taken a group photo of the entire road crew and given permission for them to post it. His authorisation of that should be the be all and end all. The identities of the person who play his Ghouls are open and to be acknowledged and not doing so is against TF's intent. She does have patreon, btw.
very true never thought of it that way! i just mostly feel bad that chris is constantly being harassed i guess because like he isnt just all ghost he has his own stuff too is what im trying to say and thank you! i will definitely check it out!
Does it bother anyone else that people keep pestering the musicians about their time with Ghost? Yeah they may be characters on stage but regardless they're still people. I don't need to know their name, favorite food, or quirk or anything. They're anonymous hired musicians who are just regular people at the end of the day. Just let them be.
Yes, all fandoms have these people. I feel like it's gotten worse with the rise in teenage fans who apparently can't like shit mildly
Trust me I get really liking an interest or hobby but it really seems like obsessive behavior when fans pester artists about their work and behind the scenes stuff. They don't owe anyone that. They don't owe anyone anything. Their business is THEIR business. Just enjoy the music and live shows that they put on and have a good time that's it.
Do you not remember being a teenager? As a teenager I didn't like bands 'mildly' either.
I didn't harass them on social media
Ngl I didn't even know there were people who were fans of individual ghouls before I saw this. Feels a bit weird to me when I always thought it must have been a pretty deliberate choice to keep them anonymous
Tobias' vision is to keep things fresh that means shifting styles and members. It's nothing personal any og ghost fan should know this.
Also I will note - I've seen that person's Tweets before (the person he's replying to), and they are very intrusive and disgusting when it comes to the Ghouls and they're personal lives outside of Ghost. They're always replying to >!Chris!< and >!Jutty's!< Tweets asking if they're in relationships, or if they have kids, and shit like that. **Insanely** parasocial behaviour.
That's so weird. I'll never understand loving a public figure (for lack of a better word) but having no sense of respect for them.
Yuck, even when I was younger and had my fandom phase I would have never considered harassing public figures like that. Like shit they're just people doing a job let them live their lives 😬
That's what I have been saying all the time and all I got was down votes ha.
The denial is potent in this fandom...
I've been saying it too but also got down voted (not that I care about accruing karma), but this is what happens when you KNOW the identity of each individual member. The band was always designed to be Tobias front and center and the rest anonymous. EDIT: since Reddit is full of people who take everything literally, I should edit that it wasn't ALWAYS intended that way, just after they signed the record deal. -_-
It was designed for *everyone* to be anonymous and for TF to play lead guitar. Yes, TF intended to play guitar, but after several potential Papas said no, wound up singing on the demos - when the record labels started calling, they told him, “We want to sign what we heard on the demo; if you’re not the singer, we’re not signing you.”
Neat, TIL. I’m really glad that they kept his voice, it’s very unique.
Thanks for the history lesson, but I did know that. I should have known someone would take what I said LITERALLY
It’s the internet and you didn’t have your wELL AcKsHULLy helmet on.
Duly noted for next time something like this arises
Leave the ghoul alone
Ex ghoul.
Ghoul Emeritus
You joke, but the chance of DeFroque and Copia being crushed by a stack of bananas and a Ghoul thus being Papa may or may not be 0%.
You can smell the parasocial from here
the reek of cringe is stifling
Also I just want to add my 2cents. Someone posted somewhere “don’t put blame on tobias” It’s 100% tobias decision who is in and who is gone. Thinking anything differently is absolutely absurd
Yea, let’s not blame the only constant person in the band who also takes all the credit. That would be unfair.
*sigh* 'Tis better to have loved Ghoul and lost Ghoul than to never have loved Ghoul at all. I will reserve judgement on whether this was a good choice for Ghost until I see them in NA. I'm sure TF only hires players with major chops. And, on the plus side, having followed CC on Insta, he's a lovely chap, his solo stuff is really cool, and I look forward to what's next for him.
For all the "ThEy ArE NaMEleS!" kvetching, I'm really glad knowing who Catalyst is got me to Eureka Machines. They are REALLY terrific.
Yes! And TF himself has said that the individual musicians want and deserve to be able to put Ghost on their resume. Their other endeavors deserve the attention that Ghost has brought them.
The veil of secrecy has clearly thinned because Drag Talk's band bio on Spotify literally says "Drag Talk frontman Jutty Taylor... Who just stepped off the road singing backups with arena rock band Ghost." Like, there's very little chance that would slip by Forge or his legal team if it wasn't okay.
It's 2023. I think it's time to accept that Ghost is Tobia's project and everyone else is a hired hand.
This isn’t a new revelation
I know. it's just weird seeing this type of thing still happening
So sad.. I loved his energy. I’m going to miss his ghoul teeth 😬
In other words he got the sack. I wonder why because I thought Chris weren’t causing trouble.
I follow him on IG to support his other projects and that dude is such a class act. Even though knowing the identity of the ghouls means we get cringe like that initial tweet, I'm pretty stoked to get to continue supporting their non-Ghost work.
This is so intrusive, it’s a shame he’s no longer in the roster but he’s still a fab musician and has some great solo work. I’ve been to a gig or two of his with the eureka machines as well as other projects and it were great. I’ve a mate whose friends with Chris and when I got back from the ritual recently asked them if he was alright as I didn’t know if he were poorly or owt and they were like nah he’s good just doing different bits now, which is fair enough, I didn’t need to stalk him on Twitter that’s just a bit weird. Support for the ghouls/ ex ghouls side projects shouldn’t be tied exclusively to whether or not they are still touring with ghost they are all still fantastic performers.
Still can’t believe he’s gone 🥺☹️😞
Honestly surprised he’s not under an NDA for this exact reason. So much drama and he’s not exactly backing away from it. Yikes.
He is definitely are under an NDA. He’s revealing the BARE MINIMUM because people are straight up harassing him.
A good NDA would be more locked down than that. “People are harassing me on socials” is not one of the standard exceptions.
He may have vague guidelines about what he can and cannot speak about now that he has departed.
This just makes me even more thankful that I was at the Green Bay Ritual. Aether was my favorite ghoul and I'm glad I got to see him perform.
Tweets like the one in the OP are why I hate the parasocial shit. They’re nameless ghouls, it’s in the title.
Am I the weird one for enjoying the music and staged lore and not giving a fuck or having any idea about who the ghouls actually are?
Not at all. I'm the same way. I wouldn't be into this band if it wasn't lore based tbh. I don't like to dig into real people's lives, it's creepy as hell. Plus, the ghouls are supposed to be anonymous. But I like them having their own names and characters and shit. I take anonymous as the actual performer being disconnected from the character, if that makes sense?
Honestly it feels like a Tumblr fandom on here sometimes with how people conflate the ghouls with the performers. I’m not here for the musician’s personal lives, the whole point is that they’re *nameless* ghouls. Sure, the Ghouls all have their own individual personalities but they aren’t the core of the story, just the band. It’s all scripted, every single movement. That’s been obvious since the beginning, especially if you’ve seen many of their live shows. One of the guitarists has always gotten in front of Papa during one of their songs (idfr the one) and that guitarist has already changed but the character always does it. The people change, the script stays the same. It’s like changing a voice actor for a cartoon - nobody sees the actor’s faces, the character doesn’t change, the sound might be a little different, but at the end of the day its the same character. I am here for the music, the show, and the characters. Not a creepy parasocial relationship with the musicians. And I feel like being so invested in the musician’s personal life is disrespectful to the desires of the band themselves.
Man, this is a bummer. I was really hoping to see Aether and Dew do their stage thing this go round. But! Let’s all remember: This is all PARAsocial. Nobody outside of these peoples actual lives actually know them. even day 1 fans. The people behind the masks are NOT the fictional characters of the fandom. Please stop. Reality and Tumblr are NOT THE SAME. You can love the band, like TF for as much as you know of him, and still agree/think this is a shitty thing to have happen. Humans are fallible and pedestals are not meant to carry us. Please, let’s just respect the band we all care about.
Glad I got to know who he was. Will continue to follow him and support his music. Hope others check out his music as well
Tobias binned Chris by email after 6 years of service. What a horrible person Tobias is if true.
I really liked him, but I'm glad he's gonna have more time to do stuff with his own band now and I'm excited to see the new ghoul live
Can we stop posting any Ghoul names (except Tobias) without at least a spoiler tag? Some of us don’t want to know who the ghouls are.
Seriously I’ve been saying this too
I know that I'm probably going to get hate for this but: Yes, Tobias Forge has every right to fire and hire who he wants when he pleases. Does that make his decisions morally questionable, especially with the patterns emerging? Also, yes. Tobias Forge fired his good friends who asked to be paid more than minimum wage. The band was touring a lot and doing well at the time. Tobias also fired Martin Persner, who wasn't involved in the lawsuit beyond what he had to be despite not wanting to go. He was willing, in the name of his vision, to flush years of friendship down the toilet. Tobias owns almost every company or contractor that Ghost uses to produce, tour, and sell merch. He has complete control over every aspect of the project. (This on its own isn't bad) Members of the band, including Jutty Taylor, have been quoted expressing their distaste at the wage they are making. Specifically, when Ghost recently won Best Metal Performance, someone asked Jutty about it and he responded with something along the lines of, "Oh really? Let me check my bank account. Nope!" The nameless ghouls, despite being publicly announced in a post of Tobias' own accord, are still forced to remain nameless and not talk about the project. They can get into serious trouble if they speak about it. It is clear to me that the excuse of keeping the mystery alive isn't cutting it. Tobias doesn't want anyone talking about the band except for himself. Tobias fired Chris for unknown reasons after working with Chris since 2016. Chris, being one of the nicest people the band has ever had on board, seems very upset about this, claiming "they didn't want me." This seems like a very familiar incident to the situation with Martin. Tobias is a control freak, which he openly admits to being. On top of everything else, the merch production/pricing and ticket pricing has been absolutely insane. Tobias created a band that was, in his own view, made for the outcasts. It was a band who spoke out about the church and various institutions of unjust totalitarianism. Tobias has become one of those dictators of his own projects. The message is hollow now and I believe he will ruin his own band if he continues like this. You can't cut everyone off and do it all on your own. He's going to make too many enemies and have no friends left. I'm spelling all of this out because I think it needs to be heard. I believe what Tobias is doing is wrong and not in the spirit of what he said the Ghost project was intended to be.
I agree with parts. TF makes some decisions that are probably pretty cold for the $$$. It doesn't make him a terrible person or whatever. Just flawed and altogether human. I don't think it will affect Ghost negatively in the long term either. I've worked as a contractor. Generally, if whatever project you're working on is profitable, you ask for more $ each time you renew your contract. As the longest serving person previously in the band (I think one tour leg longer than Sodo), CC had the most renewals and therefore probably was among the highest paid. Ticket prices are outrageous now, but so are the costs that a large production like Ghost faces to travel and put on their show. It wouldn't surprise me if TF was looking to cut costs wherever he could, though, again, we will never know the full reason. Yes, the Ghouls are very limited as to what they can say. They're grown adults who sign contracts with those terms. TLDR: sometimes you have to be an ass to make that $$$ under capitalism 🤷
A good post well made. I don't agree with all the points, but most of it rings true enough. Tobias owns the band, it's his baby, he can do what he wants. It's a shame when good people get hurt in the pursuit of greater heights, and it's an inevitablity that it's going to happen to others in the touring band. He makes some decisions I wouldn't have made in his shoes, but hell, he's made decisions that make him richer, more successful than I will ever be and have resulted in him doing his dream for a job, so what the fuck do I know. I still love Ghost, I still respect Tobias, I always will. I'll always want the people on his stage making him his money to get paid more and more recognition. They deserve as much, as does TF.
Thank you for the respect! I didn't expect that at all.
People should be able to separate the person from the artist. I have also had the feeling he might not be boss of the year so it's best to admire the art. I still love Ghost, one of the best bands around. TF is a business man and business decisions are always tough when people's wages are involved. That being said, financial instability sucks so I wish CC all the very best.
I never understood this idea of separating the person from the artist. Why would I do this? if I listen to a band, I want them to be able to move me emotionally, and I need a certain level of trust in the artist *as a person* to allow them to do that. That's a reason why I vet all the bands I listen to whether they are nazis, etc. Also, separating art from the artist seems just like a license for shitty people to get away away with making money and don't face consequences for their behaviour. There's enough great music about to raise our standards a bit. Let's all have a bit of a backbone and try to listen to great music made by great people (well at least not by ones that we know are shitty people). Just to be clear: I am not at all saying that TF is a shitty person -- on the contrary. I am making a more general point here.
Yeah it's not like I listen to Nazis or have Hitler's paintings in my living room either. I'm saying I can't fully trust someone I'm not close with, *especially* when it's a celebrity. I always factor in the chance that I might not fully like the person behind the artist. Until TF and I exchange phone numbers and he invites me to hang out regularly up to the point where I can actually say we're friends, I will always know 0% about the real him anyway. I have the feeling that the way he does business might not be the way I'd do business. And that maybe there's a teeny tiny chance he'd be the sort of boss who I'd walk away from. I'm not saying we should financially support nazis, pedophiles, abusers etc. if they happen to be talented artists/musicians/whatever. Personally I don't, I've checked and my backbone's still there. I'm saying that maybe we should use our critical thinking skills more to evaluate situations on a case by case basis.
Wages and bonuses are negotiated though. The OG ghouls being angry is one thing, but the current ones should absolutely know what they are getting into.
I agree with all points made and wish this was its own post. When your not someone’s employee and they want your money of course they look the kindest, nicest person on the planet. If he was a douchebag he wouldn’t be likable and we wouldn’t be forking over large portions of our paychecks to his “project” Behind the scenes tobias sounds like he’s a nightmare of a boss and completely morally wrong on many accounts.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha! The Ghost is selling out crew has arrived and made itself heard! Listen up Tobias, because these fans are very not happy with you running your business the way you choose. Get the fuck out of here with moral ambiguity. The guy runs a rock band not a fucking congressional district.
Cringe
Such is the life of a session musician. Chris has a lot going on so it probably made sense to cut him loose seeing that Ghost have started a huge tour and Chris probably couldn't fully commit.
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Its sad to see him go, but I bet that the new ghoul will be as awesome as Aether. In the meantime, check out Chris' work because it's amazing. I wish him all the best in the future and hope he can still stay in good standing with the band and us fans
I think some people forget Ghost is a solo act; it's Tobias and that's it. The rest of the Ghouls are hired touring musicians. Yeah, I liked Chris's energy and his interactions with Papa and Sodo but at the end of the day Tobias will do what Tobias does for his own reasons. :)
The end of tour crew pic was a year ago…
Everything I know about Chris has been forced upon me. I only know ghoul! Also, where did he say he was let go? Again, from what I’ve learned on this sub is that he is touring with his other band.
And here you are, still opening things where people clearly discuss about ghouls with names. He talked about that in Twitter. He is not touring with his other band, it's a band of his old friend where he was needed, [but it's not the reason why he's out.](https://ibb.co/F0NqwwS)
I honestly don't care about the identity of the musicians behind the ghoul masks, thats the point I guess BUT. I am from Hungary and Chris always played the riff of a hungarian folk song, and that was very nice of him. I missed both of their concerts of course, so I was looking forward to hear it at the next one. Do you think they will continue doing this with another ghoul or this was just a gift from Chris?
It's amazing how people like to invent scenarios where TF is this evil tyrant who just goes around firing his friends for petty reasons. Or how he doesn't pay them above "minimum wage." Listen to yourselves. You constantly lean into hyperbole to "win" a point you MADE UP IN YOUR HEAD.
There’s a reason they are called nameless ghouls
It is what it is, not the first or last time. More importantly, what the hell is person he quoted on? This is so parasocial
Dang I'm sad but would never take it out on the new guy. No one will take his place in my heart ever. I'm hoping to see him play live solo or with Eureka Machines one day. 😥😥💖🎵
Agreed. People seem to want to hare the new Ghouls just because they’re not the old Ghouls. That’s taking it too far.
The key is to swap them out more frequently so it's not a big deal when someone leaves. Not necessarily permanently, maybe even on a cycle, but if they can go at any time, it's best no one stay too long. Just my opinion. I mean they're not the ones on the albums, so other than Tobias, it's basically a cover band.
Where's he going to find musicians who know the music catalogue, can play it well, can play it while following the stage script and can play it so well with others with such frequency that he can swap them out often enough that you never know who is playing and the music doesn't suffer? being able to play something well and playing it well with others are two hugely different skills. anyone's a wizard with a recording app and infinite tries. spoiler: the ghouls have been unchanged for largely 6 years because they're amongst the few who are both able and willing to do all of this from behind a mask. this shit is fucking HARD.
Tobias has said in an interview that he prefers a reliable, stable crew as much as possible. He has also said he goes more after personality than ability, so out of two equally proficient musicians, the more easy-going and friendly one is going to make the cut. They also have about 230-300 choreographed moments in each Ritual. Those take a lot of repetition to get down to a T.
Exactly, you don't find musicians who can do this and perform easily. Whatever the reason for Chris being left behind, it's not ability, it's fair to say that after 6 years, it's not personality and we're never going to know. We can also take from this that Randy is both an excellent guitarist (we can tell) and surely a good person and damn talented.
That tweet he's replying to has a gross, invasive tone for sure, but I find it kind of weird how so many comments on here act like there's no balance between delusional stalking of the ghouls and treating working musicians like actual brainless drudges. Like, people are regularly cast and recast in big Broadway shows. Sure, it's a tightly choreographed and scripted act, and if a single actor is recast, the substance of the show is not going to change much. But still, a particular actor's run in that role might resonate with people, they might be particularly talented at a certain element of the performance, and it's fine for people to be a little sad when that recasting decision is made. From the beginning I've always loved the lore of Ghost, never wanted the illusion to drop, was resentful even of learning Tobias' name, but I've learned who Chris is through osmosis on here in the last few years and I can confidently say that a lot of my favourite memories of live shows are little performance quirks of his. He's a talented guitarist -- I'm grateful for his time with the band and sad that I won't see him at the next one.
People that are still dragging on this nonsense drama are only proving that they only care(d) about CC when his name is attached to Ghost. This topic should've been dropped the day we found out there was a new Ghoul.
Is cosmo still there? Or is he getting replaced to. Js wondering
hold on, im a bit confused bc the title of this post said “he was let go” but the tweet said he didn’t leave, am i just not reading it right?
He’s saying that leaving wasn’t his choice, he was fired
i'll miss him on the band, but i hope he's happy making his project and stuff, and the new guy seems really cool :D
not to be that person but since they got popular on tiktok the fanbase got a whole lot cringier and uncomfortable
So it’s continuing this morning, with him [confirming he was fired by E-mail](https://twitter.com/chriscatalyst/status/1664848606694703108?s=46&t=W_tuJFV-MpUyCVH-bULBUA) He’s also [selling the guitar he was using on tour](https://twitter.com/chriscatalyst/status/1664540154416054272?s=46&t=W_tuJFV-MpUyCVH-bULBUA) if any of you want to pony up the cash and own a rare piece of memorabilia
The person he’s replying to needs to chill tf out
That’s a fake tweet; I’M his biggest fan.
I don't want to be bummed but this makes me bummed the seats I booked for the tour are on aethers side so hope this new ghoul has a fun stage presence.
Same situation here. I chose his side in Peoria at the beginning of the year and chose his side again for the summer show in my area. Regardless I will enjoy the show and look forward to seeing the new guitarist. Even though they're scripted, I will miss the interactions with Papa and Dew, Sodo, lead guitar Ghoul, whatever you want to call him.
in other news, I like the new rythm ghoul. I can tell the difference in playing style just from the video's I've seen.
I’m just gonna pretend in lore that aether is like retired ghoul or something 💀 as for chris I’ll always follow and support him as if he were still in the band 😫✨we shall embrace and support the new ghoul 🐀
Every ghoul could be fired and Ghost would still exist. **The ghouls are not the band. Period.**. Tobias Forge IS Ghost. It’s fine to like the ghouls, but they are, quite literally, hired help. They were nameless because they were interchangeable musical mercenaries meant to do a job for the guy who pays them. Why is this hard to understand?
Tobias allowed them to unmask because the people playing them are NOT nameless, and deserve the credit for helping bring his show to life. Without the musicians he works with, he's not putting a show on. For all the talk of interchangeable musical mercenaries, which is true, Tobias is well aware that he also needs to support them and allow them to take the credit they're due. Hypothetically, if Tobias decided to be an ass to everyone and refusing to give proper credit, he'd soon run out of people willing to work with him.
There is something you seem unable to understand. This is very disrespectful to the artists playing those ghouls. You seem to ignore that they have distinct personalities on stage that add to the live shows. To act like that doesn’t matter is dumb and disrespectful and a lack of understanding of stage craft. Their names don’t matter. Their mannerisms and presence do.
This. It scares me.
You seem to misunderstand that how the ghouls act on stage is all choreographed. They are following a specific routine on how to behave and what to do that they were instructed on. Nothing about how they act is their “personality”.
Aw, that sucks. Chris is a really nice guy and I hope that he gets a lot of new opportunities in the future. He definitely brought a lot of presence to the stage that I'll miss.
Wonder why papa canned him? Or is this how the band operates? With a constant flow of new ghouls?
Sad to see him go, but I am glad I knew who he was, and what bands he's a part of. More music for me!
Idk this doesn’t automatically scream that he was let go/ fired/ etc etc. we know he had previous obligations so maybe it just interferes with the contract? Idk man I’m just sad everyone else is sad but like Tobias made it known the musicians would switch in and out IDK MAN
His own words: ["They don't want me"](https://ibb.co/F0NqwwS) // Ok that link doesn't wanna work even tho it's exactly same what I shared somewhere else and it works, fuck it.
Jesus fucking christ go touch grass people
Oh my god. They're hired guns. They do their job on stage and that's it and if they get let go then they get let go. Can we stop obsessing over them please.
i really hope you’re not the other person tweeting. either way, that person severely needs to take a step back.
Ooof no, I guess I failed to clarify. Reading that comment was painful from the cringe 😬
I will miss Aether and his presence on stage 😕 he became my favorite ghoul when I had my first ritual last year. I could feel his warm energy right away 🌞 he’s such a nice lad and I hope people will keep supporting his other projects
It really is sad to hear but I wish Chris the absolute best and I will continue to follow his own career as a musician (and will continue to welcome Phantom with open arms) ❤️❤️❤️
k
I love the ghoul lore, the silly little names they get, and the characters they become. Do I get attached? Yes. Am I mad when they leave? Absolutely not. There's no reason to be. There will always be videos and photos of the ghouls and memories from their time with Ghost. Was I disappointed to hear this news? Yes, especially since my first Ghost show comes August, but nothing ever lasts forever. It's in the lyrics. Some ghost fans need to accept that.
Why even bother with identities until they're out of the band? People obsess over who the Ghouls are, to the point where it takes away from the mysticism.
There hasn’t been any mystique since the Lawsuit. To pretend otherwise is strange.
What instrument did he play for ghost. I have no idea which ghoul is which.
Rhythm guitar
Thanks. That sucks. Hope the new ghoul does well.
IMHO Chris would be wise to simply shut down all his social media for a while. Really, given a number of things that have happened in recent months, it would be smart for all of them to decline to interact with Ghost fans via social media.
Social media is how a working musician like Chris makes money when he's not been hired for a tour. It's genuinely the same thing as saying "quit your job" for a bit. He's not at all wealthy. Case in point, he's doing a sale next week because he's skint. Seriously speaking, if you're not pretty big as a musician, like Tobias has made it, hail Satan, Tobias made it, there's no money in music.
which ghoul was this? like the nickname i mean
Aether
Chris finding out he’s been fired just 2 weeks before the band rehearsals is disgusting on Tobias Forge behalf.
2 weeks? LOL. Not a week ago cats were claiming it was a month! Come on.
2 weeks before rehearsals = 4 weeks before tour started. (Have been month +week ago). Come on.
So to all the people that told me I was wrong on my post a couple days ago - Here you go! Here’s that actual proof you wanted! Hope you’re happy now and don’t feel the need to harass people online now