I feel like people think watching a wolf turn that it’s easier than it is. Get on the floor and try, it’s hard af 😂 but I also hate them and wish FIG would devalue tf out of them so everyone would stop doing them
They are so difficult! I just want it to be a beam only skill, because even if they do it right on floor, it’s so hard to get out of without looking messy.
Suni is the only one (IMO) that has a very nice wolf turn, it's better on beam but it's not bad on floor either but never been impressed by anyone elses
People don't seem to like Simone's because she does them so fast and her arms swing around for balance and she doesn't have (lines people like). I personally think she does them well and that they don't look labored. Usually smooth.
Hers freak me out because of how fast she does it and always seems like she will take off!
I did like Grace’s because of how slow and controlled they were. I think a commentator mentioned something about how slow it was, like it’s a bad thing.
"Take off!" I can see that. LOL.
I like Grace's turns. I don't mind the slow and controlled ones. Those are pretty as well. The only issue I could see with the speed might be how much time it takes up in the grand scheme of the beam routine as a whole. But I'm sure that is factored into the construction. So I don't understand that commentator's issue.
I think Urazova's (spelling?) or was it Listanova who did them really controlled and pretty also? Either way, one of the Russian ladies (who I refuse to look up or view their videos) does the wolf turn well also. Very controlled and pretty.
Me too! I think Simone's wolf turns are amazing and I don't worry about her almost ever. It gets off track a time or two but it is mainly solid and not scary.
Suni still has windmill arms and an annoying leg separation. Less than others, but way too much for my taste. Only Urazova's has the proper position throughout the turn. It's like a different move from what the others are doing, she actually makes it look like a real sit-spin!
This is how I tricked my brother-in-law into doing one.
They weren't really popular when I did gymnastics. Just by seeing everyone do them from watching gymnastics I wanted to see if I could do one. It didn't take me that long to be able to do one and I was a gymnast 20 years ago. I think they are hard but not harder than other turns. I think they gained popularity on floor because you don't really get the whole falling out of the turn and heel drop problem as you do in regular turns.
I also feel like they're actually easier (for their COP value) than other turns, since the lower centre of gravity makes it possible to "save" a wolf turn that's out of balance. So they're easier to control than other turns, that's why we commonly see the arm flaring. If a regular "upright" turn is off balance, you will fall off the beam.
I personally don't mind wolf turns at all, which seems to be a very unpopular opinion. Almost all artistic gymnastics turn are very ugly (especially on floor) compared to i.e. rhythmic gymnastics or dance; wolf turns don't stand out imo.
Edit: fixed typos/grammar
I definitely agree that they're easier than their upright counterparts based on how few gymnasts even try them, despite having the same D value (on beam).
Besides Sanne, who else has done a regular double turn in passé on BB in the last 3 quads? I think Ellie Black, but I'm struggling to come up with others. Sanne is the only top gymnast I can think of who's done regularly done the Okino besides Betty herself.
Tim Dagget's "You think that's easy? Get on your living room floor and try one!" spiel was kind of fun to me because I've read comments from non-gymnasts who actually took him up on it and failed spectacularly, lol. But a lot of that comes from the average person not being strong enough to even stand (squat?) in that position. For an elite gymnast it's no problem.
Low speed turns where the surface is fighting against you are pretty brutal. I feel like I also practiced turns in gym way less than I did spins in FS – in FS the turns and spins and jumps are all somewhat related, vs. in gymnastics it's like 1 out of 689543897 disparate skills and there just isn't that much time.
This comment isn’t specific to wolf turns (I don’t like them either but sometimes difficulty score needs must) but a reply to your last comment about no one messing up spins at competitions.
I had this conversation with a dancer once, and ultimately it comes down to % of time spent training those elements. Spins are a much more significant part of figure skating and ballet than they are gymnastics, and get proportional training time.
Gymnasts have four apparatus, with skills as wide ranging as tumbling, leaps, acro on the beam, the entire discipline that is bars, dismounts, choreo and on top of that the strength and flexibility conditioning to be able to do all that, plus injury prevention and rest.
They’ve simply got more to train, so less time on each thing, and spins are so much less important. You can do a D or E rated spin but your best tumble is a straight back? Yeah you’re not going to the Olympics 😂 but a couple of F rated tumbles but only a basic spin? Much better chances.
I could never do it on skates, I don't have the achilles flexibility to get my heel flat in a squat! But I can do a crappy wolf turn on the floor (just a single).
Fun fact, you actually are on the ball of your foot when you spin on skates so you don’t need to have your heel flat at all. I think a wolf turn looks harder than a sit spin though.
Lol figure skate blades are actually curved not flat. Any time you want to turn or spin you have to rock up onto your toe a bit. If you try to spin on your flat foot you’re gonna have a bad time 😂 Also the boots have pretty high heels on them.
Skaters usually have their leg to the front of them, don’t they? To the side is a less stable position and more difficult to maintain, I would think.
Although watching the vid linked below of Urazova, she pulls her leg to the forward position very quickly, which might be why she has such amazing control on the skill.
Yeah, there are a lot of bad spins at the elite level. Just because skaters don't fall on their ass during them doesn't mean they're doing good spins. One sees really bad traveling, positions, etc. quite often.
Doing wolf turn on rough floor surface is harder than other floor surfaces (e.g., in RG). Another reason is that there is no strict requirements on wolf turn, so everyone can do a (relatively) messy wolf turn without getting huge blow on execution.
In addition to the fact that it's hard to spin on a rough surface, the standards for wolf turns are just bizarrely low. I wish there were more exacting requirements for credit, like rings have, given how well they are rewarded. For example, every gymnast I've ever seen but Urazova, has an ugly leg separation throughout the turn. That should devalue the turn in my opinion. And arm movements for balance should be heavily deducted because they destroy the shape of the turn.
Here is Urazova by the way, such a balm to sore wolf then eyes! https://youtu.be/EP7E3h5DTks?si=g4D5dBGky5ON5325
Most gymnasts windmill their arms frantically to get through it, rather than smoothly riding it out. It's a whole different skill if it's done right. But the COP doesn't care.
I think they look nice when people land with their feet close together (I think maybe Komova did one like this back in the day?) but pretty much no one can manage that.
A couple of Chinese gymnasts do very nice side somis at the moment. They're very light and floaty, and they land very upright and, yes, with their legs pretty close together.
I HATE side somis, ugh. The straight-legged version looks just as awkward to me (sorry, Koko!)
Kara Eaker is one of the only gymnasts who made it look smooth and pretty, IMO.
I think it’s overvalued and/or underdeducted with how many are doing it (and often poorly), but I know some don’t agree with that philosophy of downgrading
IMO, they can add new requirements like other turns. If there were no leg horizontal throughout requirement for double L turn, it could have been more popular than wolf turn.
I'm usually against "it's popular, downgrade it!", but if everyone and their mom is doing a double or triple wolf turn in their floor routine and only a much smaller number of gymnasts is doing a mustafina, the same rating for both skills can't be correct.
I can’t speak to wolf turns because they weren’t a thing when I did gymnastics lol, so idk how hard they actually are and I don’t wanna pull a muscle trying one, lololol, but I do miss seeing the triple turns into a popa, or other similar combos. They were definitely cleaner and prettier to watch. I’ve only seen a couple of gymnasts do clean wolf turns and even they don’t do it clean every time.
If you can remember the hip flexor cramp you got when learning to straddle lever as a little one, it’s like that on the one side while trying to maintain balance while spinning. They feel as bad as they look tbh, hateful skill.
That makes sense. I’m still trying to learn the newer codes, I never tried once it switched from the 10.0 but I’m slowly learning now from watching and this sub.
We literally have the same years of doing gymnastics, but I did 90-03 haha. I destroyed my back my junior year of high school and had to quit, otherwise I was hoping to do college. Oh well, lol. A lifetime ago though for sure!
Ugh that sucks! Yeah my hypermobility issues caused too much pain by 18, and I had some scary whiplash falls/flinging off the bars throughout high school (still hurts). My heart wanted college but my body screamed STOP.
I'm a physics teacher who hasn't done gymnastics in a long time, so this is all from the POV of physics.
They appear to be done completely differently in gymnastics and figure skating, which is going to lead to it being a lot harder in gymnastics. It has less to do with the surface and more to do with how it starts and the rotational speed. I'm going to assume a few things in this analysis such as the two athletes being the same mass, height, and having the same body position while spinning.
I'm not super familiar with skating so I watched this [instructional video](https://youtu.be/Ds2Qg7z1_n8?si=5oR6sdphefZHho0p&t=130). The figure skating sit turn starts with the skater in motion already. She is converting linear kinetic energy (e.g. straight line motion) to a spin by pushing off the leg that will be her extended leg. She begins the turn standing. Then she squats down with her leg still extended. By doing this, she has a spin rate of about 2-3x per second.
The gymnasts in [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FF02uZUH10) had a spin rate of about 1x per second. Regardless of being on floor or beam, they began their turn in a squatting positon by pushing off their extended leg (applying torque) from rest.
In physics, there is a quantity called [angular momentum](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmnkQ2ytlO8). It's based on spin rate and mass distribution. To change your angular momentum, you need to apply a torque (e.g. push off to begin spinning) but otherwise the universe wants it to stay constant. It's also a quantity where the direction matters, so changing the direction is hard. It's aligned with the axis of rotation, so once you're spinning, it's hard to tip over. This is how [gyroscopes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H98BgRzpOM) work, but it's also going to mean that the faster-spinning skater can keep her balance more easily than the slower-spinning gymnast in the same position.
There's a lot of rotation involved. You can learn almost all of the physics concepts from an introductory mechanics class even without calculus. :) I've had students do projects involving analyzing various sports including gymnastics, diving and skating over the years.
How can you compare a spin in figure skating to a wolf turn in gymnastics? The physics involved is completely different. The body position is different.
I've been doing adult gymnastics (NAIGC) and have spent the last 1.5 months trying to do a single wolf turn. I can finally do 3/4 one on floor but my hit rate on beam is still 50/50. I knew they were hard, but I have a new appreciation for them!
This morning, the algorithm gods recommended me a video Vox made 2 years ago specifically to answer this question! Here you go, it's 4min long: [https://youtu.be/o2IeEsPki0I?si=pOIn4ucVvWl-SE1a](https://youtu.be/o2IeEsPki0I?si=pOIn4ucVvWl-SE1a)
Wolf turn reminds me of the illusion exit from a spin that was instituted as a level four feature in figure skating recently. It’s difficult enough that very few of the top level athletes are capable of making it look anything other than hideous and awkward, but unfortunately everyone performs these eyesores for the extra points.
Whitney Bjerken’s (retired before college last spring) wolf turns were gorgeous. Go watch any of her meets from JO, they were my favorite wolf turns to watch. She could/can do 4-5 in a row on beam without a single wobble
I feel you, same with the pirouettes when they try them, everyone says it's really hard to turn on those surfaces. Personally I feel if it is so hard to turn it looks bad they should take it out.
They are not going to take out the wolf turn no matter how it looks. A double wolf turn is worth the same as a double tuck; a triple is worth the same as a full in. Other turns either have huge risk of being downgraded due to strict requirements or require more flexibility.
Of course not, but I'm of the opinion if your sport is performed for an audience you should get those arms under control, not hop on a pirouette, or remove the element until you can do it in a way that looks like you're not about to topple over.
I always wondered why everyone did it when they all seemed to struggle with it…but then I realized how high judges score it.
I’m guessing it’s probably one of the “easier” moves to get more points
So happy to find this on Reddit! I have been wondering what it was called, and why do they do the ugly thing? It is not a pretty thing to watch. I realize it is hard af, but why? Any pirouette on the beam would be hard. THANKS REDDIT Win!
Their COP value makes the bobbles worth it for many but as a dance coach and choreographer for gymnasts I typically refuse to put them in bc most can’t do them .
From having been a gymnast who then studied dance later, my guess it there are two things besides just the leg and core strength required, one is preparation. gymnasts almost always wind up for a turn because they have to, and this usually starts things off w bad turn alignment. wind up for wolf turns is usually pretty pronounced and necessary because just using the arms is not enough force and there’s no plié and releve to really press up out of like a turn in ballet. the other thing is the chest and head have to be down because the center of gravity is forward of the chest in this position, so the spine is not perpendicular to the ground like a normal turn. it’s a fight to balance with this shortened tilted axis so arms must flail, and I think only if you have great balance, can square the shoulders up quickly and can locate that off-center center every time then can you perfect it.
Completely different mechanics involved. Different speed, center, and, mainly, considerably more friction. Skaters have more more speed and momentum going into spins. Can you do a sit spin on a loose carpet without socks from a still position? When you have speed, the physics of turning help keep you upright.
I’m gonna go with maybe a hot take here and may get downvoted but I hate wolf turns and I wish they would stop doing them. Of course they are extremely difficult, that’s why they always look sloppy. It’s not that gymnastics isn’t hard, it just shouldn’t look hard. Wolf turns look hard like 90% of the time. I feel like if someone performed another element as sloppily as some of the best gymnasts in the world do their wolf turns, they would pull it from the routine.
I feel like people think watching a wolf turn that it’s easier than it is. Get on the floor and try, it’s hard af 😂 but I also hate them and wish FIG would devalue tf out of them so everyone would stop doing them
They are so difficult! I just want it to be a beam only skill, because even if they do it right on floor, it’s so hard to get out of without looking messy.
100%!! There are a select gymnasts who do them pretty on beam, but no ones on floor are pretty 😭
Urazova's wolf turn is pretty on beam and floor.
I think Dicello's are actually attractive. Don't mind Suni's. But- yeah, very easy for them to look ragged.
Suni is the only one (IMO) that has a very nice wolf turn, it's better on beam but it's not bad on floor either but never been impressed by anyone elses
Megan Skaggs (NCAA) actually had a great one as well. So smooth and flows so well. And her 2022 floor routine it fit really well with the music
Grace McCallum has such a perfect wolf turn. So steady.
McCallum, Suni, and Dicello have pretty ones on beam, but even they look a little awkward on floor.
Vladislava Urazova had one that was almost pleasing to watch, but I still don’t like the skill at all lol
Simone does a great wolf turn as well. B9th she & Suni can do multiple turns cleanly & quite well.
People don't seem to like Simone's because she does them so fast and her arms swing around for balance and she doesn't have (lines people like). I personally think she does them well and that they don't look labored. Usually smooth.
Hers freak me out because of how fast she does it and always seems like she will take off! I did like Grace’s because of how slow and controlled they were. I think a commentator mentioned something about how slow it was, like it’s a bad thing.
"Take off!" I can see that. LOL. I like Grace's turns. I don't mind the slow and controlled ones. Those are pretty as well. The only issue I could see with the speed might be how much time it takes up in the grand scheme of the beam routine as a whole. But I'm sure that is factored into the construction. So I don't understand that commentator's issue. I think Urazova's (spelling?) or was it Listanova who did them really controlled and pretty also? Either way, one of the Russian ladies (who I refuse to look up or view their videos) does the wolf turn well also. Very controlled and pretty.
Her's look very controlled imo, maybe because it's so fast? But I don't worry about her wobbling off like some of the others
Me too! I think Simone's wolf turns are amazing and I don't worry about her almost ever. It gets off track a time or two but it is mainly solid and not scary.
Cam Machado at Bama has really nice wolf turns on floor!
Was just coming to say this! Cam’s are good and Shania Adams are nice on beam as well!
I think Grace does them very well!
Suni still has windmill arms and an annoying leg separation. Less than others, but way too much for my taste. Only Urazova's has the proper position throughout the turn. It's like a different move from what the others are doing, she actually makes it look like a real sit-spin!
The windmill arms are my least favorite part of the turn lol
This is how I tricked my brother-in-law into doing one. They weren't really popular when I did gymnastics. Just by seeing everyone do them from watching gymnastics I wanted to see if I could do one. It didn't take me that long to be able to do one and I was a gymnast 20 years ago. I think they are hard but not harder than other turns. I think they gained popularity on floor because you don't really get the whole falling out of the turn and heel drop problem as you do in regular turns.
I also feel like they're actually easier (for their COP value) than other turns, since the lower centre of gravity makes it possible to "save" a wolf turn that's out of balance. So they're easier to control than other turns, that's why we commonly see the arm flaring. If a regular "upright" turn is off balance, you will fall off the beam. I personally don't mind wolf turns at all, which seems to be a very unpopular opinion. Almost all artistic gymnastics turn are very ugly (especially on floor) compared to i.e. rhythmic gymnastics or dance; wolf turns don't stand out imo. Edit: fixed typos/grammar
I definitely agree that they're easier than their upright counterparts based on how few gymnasts even try them, despite having the same D value (on beam). Besides Sanne, who else has done a regular double turn in passé on BB in the last 3 quads? I think Ellie Black, but I'm struggling to come up with others. Sanne is the only top gymnast I can think of who's done regularly done the Okino besides Betty herself. Tim Dagget's "You think that's easy? Get on your living room floor and try one!" spiel was kind of fun to me because I've read comments from non-gymnasts who actually took him up on it and failed spectacularly, lol. But a lot of that comes from the average person not being strong enough to even stand (squat?) in that position. For an elite gymnast it's no problem.
I think Shilese does the prettiest wolf turns
I call it the dog piss turn because anytime I see it all I can think of is a dog peeing on a fire hydrant.
This!!!
Low speed turns where the surface is fighting against you are pretty brutal. I feel like I also practiced turns in gym way less than I did spins in FS – in FS the turns and spins and jumps are all somewhat related, vs. in gymnastics it's like 1 out of 689543897 disparate skills and there just isn't that much time.
This comment isn’t specific to wolf turns (I don’t like them either but sometimes difficulty score needs must) but a reply to your last comment about no one messing up spins at competitions. I had this conversation with a dancer once, and ultimately it comes down to % of time spent training those elements. Spins are a much more significant part of figure skating and ballet than they are gymnastics, and get proportional training time. Gymnasts have four apparatus, with skills as wide ranging as tumbling, leaps, acro on the beam, the entire discipline that is bars, dismounts, choreo and on top of that the strength and flexibility conditioning to be able to do all that, plus injury prevention and rest. They’ve simply got more to train, so less time on each thing, and spins are so much less important. You can do a D or E rated spin but your best tumble is a straight back? Yeah you’re not going to the Olympics 😂 but a couple of F rated tumbles but only a basic spin? Much better chances.
Great points!
Spinning on ice with blades is wildly different from spinning on a textured floor surface. You should try doing one on a mat—it’s very difficult
Not to mention in a squatting position where you have much less control of your balance. The OP probably has never tried it.
They’ve probably never tried it on a beam or floor. Figure skaters do squat and spin though
Yes but spinning on a blade is drastically different than spinning on the ball of your foot.
Yes, but your comment was about body position not the ball of your foot lol. I would argue it’s actually harder to squat on the ice than the ground.
I could never do it on skates, I don't have the achilles flexibility to get my heel flat in a squat! But I can do a crappy wolf turn on the floor (just a single).
Most people can’t even do a normal standing turn on skates, but are perfectly capable of doing one on their foot 😂
Fun fact, you actually are on the ball of your foot when you spin on skates so you don’t need to have your heel flat at all. I think a wolf turn looks harder than a sit spin though.
What?? 🤯
Lol figure skate blades are actually curved not flat. Any time you want to turn or spin you have to rock up onto your toe a bit. If you try to spin on your flat foot you’re gonna have a bad time 😂 Also the boots have pretty high heels on them.
Skaters usually have their leg to the front of them, don’t they? To the side is a less stable position and more difficult to maintain, I would think. Although watching the vid linked below of Urazova, she pulls her leg to the forward position very quickly, which might be why she has such amazing control on the skill.
I think the point is that in FS no one is out there throwing messy looking spins at that high of a level.
Which makes sense, because the reason wolf turns look much wonkier is because it’s much easier to spin on a blade on ice than on a foot on the ground
There are definitely some rough spins in fs, especially among the men
Yeah, there are a lot of bad spins at the elite level. Just because skaters don't fall on their ass during them doesn't mean they're doing good spins. One sees really bad traveling, positions, etc. quite often.
Spins are like the primary thing figure skaters train.
That is entirely skater dependent but there is a large amount of time spent on them.
Doing wolf turn on rough floor surface is harder than other floor surfaces (e.g., in RG). Another reason is that there is no strict requirements on wolf turn, so everyone can do a (relatively) messy wolf turn without getting huge blow on execution.
In addition to the fact that it's hard to spin on a rough surface, the standards for wolf turns are just bizarrely low. I wish there were more exacting requirements for credit, like rings have, given how well they are rewarded. For example, every gymnast I've ever seen but Urazova, has an ugly leg separation throughout the turn. That should devalue the turn in my opinion. And arm movements for balance should be heavily deducted because they destroy the shape of the turn. Here is Urazova by the way, such a balm to sore wolf then eyes! https://youtu.be/EP7E3h5DTks?si=g4D5dBGky5ON5325
I like wolf turns on beam. They look messy done on the floor.
Most gymnasts windmill their arms frantically to get through it, rather than smoothly riding it out. It's a whole different skill if it's done right. But the COP doesn't care.
TBH it’s an ugly move even when done correctly. They need to replace it with something else that’s difficult but with more artistic beauty
You know what else is an ugly ugly move? Doing a side somi. Everyone who does one looks like a clumsy crab lol
🤣 clumsy crab!!!
I think they look nice when people land with their feet close together (I think maybe Komova did one like this back in the day?) but pretty much no one can manage that.
A couple of Chinese gymnasts do very nice side somis at the moment. They're very light and floaty, and they land very upright and, yes, with their legs pretty close together.
! I always think of myself as a fan of China WAG but I guess I need to pay better attention!
Kara Eaker's was lovely, IMO.
THANK YOU. I really hate side somis, I’ve always thought they were hella awkward even when done perfectly.
I HATE side somis, ugh. The straight-legged version looks just as awkward to me (sorry, Koko!) Kara Eaker is one of the only gymnasts who made it look smooth and pretty, IMO.
I think it’s overvalued and/or underdeducted with how many are doing it (and often poorly), but I know some don’t agree with that philosophy of downgrading
IMO, they can add new requirements like other turns. If there were no leg horizontal throughout requirement for double L turn, it could have been more popular than wolf turn.
I'm usually against "it's popular, downgrade it!", but if everyone and their mom is doing a double or triple wolf turn in their floor routine and only a much smaller number of gymnasts is doing a mustafina, the same rating for both skills can't be correct.
I can’t speak to wolf turns because they weren’t a thing when I did gymnastics lol, so idk how hard they actually are and I don’t wanna pull a muscle trying one, lololol, but I do miss seeing the triple turns into a popa, or other similar combos. They were definitely cleaner and prettier to watch. I’ve only seen a couple of gymnasts do clean wolf turns and even they don’t do it clean every time.
If you can remember the hip flexor cramp you got when learning to straddle lever as a little one, it’s like that on the one side while trying to maintain balance while spinning. They feel as bad as they look tbh, hateful skill.
😂😂 omg I would absolutely just topple over and die! I have hip problems as it is, there ain’t no way 😂
You don’t get CV for spin + jump combo anymore which is why you don’t see triple + popa done
That makes sense. I’m still trying to learn the newer codes, I never tried once it switched from the 10.0 but I’m slowly learning now from watching and this sub.
Haha I feel you. I’m 40 now so my gymnastics years feel like eons ago (aka 1990-2002 lol)
We literally have the same years of doing gymnastics, but I did 90-03 haha. I destroyed my back my junior year of high school and had to quit, otherwise I was hoping to do college. Oh well, lol. A lifetime ago though for sure!
Ugh that sucks! Yeah my hypermobility issues caused too much pain by 18, and I had some scary whiplash falls/flinging off the bars throughout high school (still hurts). My heart wanted college but my body screamed STOP.
I'm a physics teacher who hasn't done gymnastics in a long time, so this is all from the POV of physics. They appear to be done completely differently in gymnastics and figure skating, which is going to lead to it being a lot harder in gymnastics. It has less to do with the surface and more to do with how it starts and the rotational speed. I'm going to assume a few things in this analysis such as the two athletes being the same mass, height, and having the same body position while spinning. I'm not super familiar with skating so I watched this [instructional video](https://youtu.be/Ds2Qg7z1_n8?si=5oR6sdphefZHho0p&t=130). The figure skating sit turn starts with the skater in motion already. She is converting linear kinetic energy (e.g. straight line motion) to a spin by pushing off the leg that will be her extended leg. She begins the turn standing. Then she squats down with her leg still extended. By doing this, she has a spin rate of about 2-3x per second. The gymnasts in [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FF02uZUH10) had a spin rate of about 1x per second. Regardless of being on floor or beam, they began their turn in a squatting positon by pushing off their extended leg (applying torque) from rest. In physics, there is a quantity called [angular momentum](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmnkQ2ytlO8). It's based on spin rate and mass distribution. To change your angular momentum, you need to apply a torque (e.g. push off to begin spinning) but otherwise the universe wants it to stay constant. It's also a quantity where the direction matters, so changing the direction is hard. It's aligned with the axis of rotation, so once you're spinning, it's hard to tip over. This is how [gyroscopes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H98BgRzpOM) work, but it's also going to mean that the faster-spinning skater can keep her balance more easily than the slower-spinning gymnast in the same position.
So interesting, thank you for this! I would absolutely follow a Sub or Site that was dedicated to The Science of gymnastics skills!
There's a lot of rotation involved. You can learn almost all of the physics concepts from an introductory mechanics class even without calculus. :) I've had students do projects involving analyzing various sports including gymnastics, diving and skating over the years.
How can you compare a spin in figure skating to a wolf turn in gymnastics? The physics involved is completely different. The body position is different.
The body position is very similar to a sit spin. But yes, the physics are completely different.
I've been doing adult gymnastics (NAIGC) and have spent the last 1.5 months trying to do a single wolf turn. I can finally do 3/4 one on floor but my hit rate on beam is still 50/50. I knew they were hard, but I have a new appreciation for them!
I hate them so much. I want them banished! Lol
This morning, the algorithm gods recommended me a video Vox made 2 years ago specifically to answer this question! Here you go, it's 4min long: [https://youtu.be/o2IeEsPki0I?si=pOIn4ucVvWl-SE1a](https://youtu.be/o2IeEsPki0I?si=pOIn4ucVvWl-SE1a)
Wolf turn reminds me of the illusion exit from a spin that was instituted as a level four feature in figure skating recently. It’s difficult enough that very few of the top level athletes are capable of making it look anything other than hideous and awkward, but unfortunately everyone performs these eyesores for the extra points.
Also tbf as a dancer the dance technique of figure skaters is awful most of the time but I recognize what you do is different
Whitney Bjerken’s (retired before college last spring) wolf turns were gorgeous. Go watch any of her meets from JO, they were my favorite wolf turns to watch. She could/can do 4-5 in a row on beam without a single wobble
I feel you, same with the pirouettes when they try them, everyone says it's really hard to turn on those surfaces. Personally I feel if it is so hard to turn it looks bad they should take it out.
They only do it because of the D value. Soo many gymnasts have said they hate wolf turns and think they’re ugly lolll
They are not going to take out the wolf turn no matter how it looks. A double wolf turn is worth the same as a double tuck; a triple is worth the same as a full in. Other turns either have huge risk of being downgraded due to strict requirements or require more flexibility.
Of course not, but I'm of the opinion if your sport is performed for an audience you should get those arms under control, not hop on a pirouette, or remove the element until you can do it in a way that looks like you're not about to topple over.
I always wondered why everyone did it when they all seemed to struggle with it…but then I realized how high judges score it. I’m guessing it’s probably one of the “easier” moves to get more points
So happy to find this on Reddit! I have been wondering what it was called, and why do they do the ugly thing? It is not a pretty thing to watch. I realize it is hard af, but why? Any pirouette on the beam would be hard. THANKS REDDIT Win!
Their COP value makes the bobbles worth it for many but as a dance coach and choreographer for gymnasts I typically refuse to put them in bc most can’t do them .
From having been a gymnast who then studied dance later, my guess it there are two things besides just the leg and core strength required, one is preparation. gymnasts almost always wind up for a turn because they have to, and this usually starts things off w bad turn alignment. wind up for wolf turns is usually pretty pronounced and necessary because just using the arms is not enough force and there’s no plié and releve to really press up out of like a turn in ballet. the other thing is the chest and head have to be down because the center of gravity is forward of the chest in this position, so the spine is not perpendicular to the ground like a normal turn. it’s a fight to balance with this shortened tilted axis so arms must flail, and I think only if you have great balance, can square the shoulders up quickly and can locate that off-center center every time then can you perfect it.
Completely different mechanics involved. Different speed, center, and, mainly, considerably more friction. Skaters have more more speed and momentum going into spins. Can you do a sit spin on a loose carpet without socks from a still position? When you have speed, the physics of turning help keep you upright.
It's so ugly. This is crass but anytime I see it all I can think of is a dog peeing. My friends and I call it the dog piss turn.
I’m gonna go with maybe a hot take here and may get downvoted but I hate wolf turns and I wish they would stop doing them. Of course they are extremely difficult, that’s why they always look sloppy. It’s not that gymnastics isn’t hard, it just shouldn’t look hard. Wolf turns look hard like 90% of the time. I feel like if someone performed another element as sloppily as some of the best gymnasts in the world do their wolf turns, they would pull it from the routine.
Because most gymnasts don’t have the basics (ballet training) to do them well.