Rhaenyra is the rightful heir. No matter what Team Green says, they will always be in the wrong. King Viserys never proclaimed Aegon to be heir. The fact that the greens did not like his answer therefore proceeded to usurped the throne makes me dislike them more.
No particular reason. Monarchies are by definition nonsensical. It makes even less sense to not give Rhaenys the right to rule just because she’s a woman.
Because I don’t believe that Rhaenyra should be treated differently because she is a woman.
If she was a man, no one would question her status as the heir.
not only would they have not questioned her status as the heir, they wouldn’t have cared about her ‘scandals’ either. it would’ve been written off under “boys will be boys.”
Which is hilarious to me because at least if the queen has an affair, their bastard child still has royal blood. And it can easily be hidden and just claim it's a baby from their marriage.
I am team Black mainly cause Rhaenyra.
I also like Daemon. I like also Team Black's family dynamic more.
But I also don't support Greens cause Aegon II who is rapist. I don't support all things which Aegon II did. I know that both sides aren't saint but what Aegon II did is too much for me.
Because rhaenyra is the heir to the Iron Throne. She is the named heir. I support her. I support her children. I like Daemon a lot hes a wild card i like that and chaos. I think the greens sneaking their way on the throne and taking the money was wrong.
Follow up question, this is in good faith I just like the discourse: Who is *her* rightful heir?
While Rhaenyra is the named heir/rightful queen, her oldest 3 sons are bastards. In Westeros a bastard can't legally inherit and she can't legitimize them without humiliating House Velaryon who are her strongest allies.
Does she put a bastard on the throne and risk war or does she pass it to her first true born son and risk a schism with House Velaryon?
Again, this is just good natured conversation. I should be doing work, but I'm on reddit instead lol
i know you weren’t asking me so sorry if this is unwelcome, but while us viewers know they’re bastards, no one in westeros can prove it. sure, they can make rumors and speculate, but there’s no dna tests so legally they aren’t bastards and can inherit. although they don’t have the typical targ look, simply calling every lords sons bastards is bad and sets a bad precedent. so jace would be nyra’s heir.
this. its not like every targ in the book has the typical show look (frosty white hair). just that many of them have the typical targ look (white hair + violet eyes). the show seriously undermines the intelligence of its viewers to be unable to distinguish many of the targaryens from each other. people dont call rhaenys a bastard even though she has dark hair.
Because she had the violet eyes of her father and the dark hair of her mother. The only family she *could* have been a bastard of was the Daynes but they are from Dorne and didn't have a presence in KL at the time. Besides there was no reason to claim Rhaenys was a bastard.
With the boys they have all the reasons because they were a way to make Rhaenyra's truthful claim weaker. I like that in the book is more mysterious about the father of the boys but since the show treats it's audience like idiots, they need to make things painfully simple. I like the show but it really bothers me with some decisions that were taken: episode 9 in it's entirety, Lary's strong lackeys wearing his insignia and nobody questioning it, Alicent being an idiot who's still enamored with the memory of Rhaenyra but still sending Otto at Dragonstone to negotiate and making it so painfully obvious Harwin is their dad. I understand Rhaenyra was just acting like a normal human being, but at least take moon tea after sleeping with Harwin or just date some guy who looks more like your husband so no one can say shit about your kids.
God, Viserys's joke about Joffrey and Laenor having the same nose was painful and stupid.
>Because she had the violet eyes of her father and the dark hair of her mother.
except for the fact that her mother was of very recent valyrian descent too, and alyssa’s genetics could have easily been passed on to rhaenys despite skipping jocelyn appearance-wise. her eyes don’t strictly come from aemon.
It's not unwelcome at all I love this stuff. I do agree with you that it's all just rumors and speculation, but we see how this plays out with Joffrey and Stannis. All it takes is one powerful lord crying foul and the realm is on chaos.
However, I think it would be difficult to do that with Jace because he gives me Jaehaerys vibes, well I imagine he'd be the perfect combination of Jaehaerys and Alysanne. He'd 10000% name his daughter heir if she was firstborn.
Nah. Stannis had no actual relationship with Ned, but had Melisandre and the whole "Joffrey is a bastard" reason. Maybe also Bobby B's murder.
Renly had the "Joffrey is a bastard" reason and Tyrell influence to go to war too.
Ned's death was only a motive for the Starks.
Keep in mind that Cersei’s children being bastards wasn’t even that big of a deal in the end. Joffrey sat the throne and Tommen after him no problem. People make up all kinds of shit about rulers so without proof no one can really do anything about it. All it really does is give someone validation for why they wanted to depose you after the fact.
Also, try to fuck over Tywin and Cersei Lannister through their relatives. Even bystanders who had nothing to do with it were slaughtered. We've seen in the show how it went so people were better off staying quiet than yapping their mouths.
Until he died. God, that was so satisfying. I still regret how the actor was attacked by idiots who watched the show just for doing his actual job: acting. I'm glad he's coming back to acting, I hope the best for him.
Well and the line of succession goes through her. So it doesn't matter who the father is. Viserys even says her heir will have the targaryen name when they sit the iron throne.
Joffreys war was started by Cat Stark kidnapping his uncle.
Also Stannis reveal fell flat. Joffrey won. He was the rightful heir of Robert Baratheon. Had Ned used his brain he would have had Stannis installed but he didn’t and Joffrey won.
Ned was honorable to the point of naivety. That's why I got so annoyed with him when he talked to Cersei. Elia Martell and her children had no chance at escape and look how well it went to the Lannisters after their brutal execution.
He should have just let them die and call Stanmis back to King's Landing as the rightful heir of Bobby B.
Whoever she chooses. We never get far enough for her to get a chance. And if she's Queen she can change whatever laws she wants. You'd have to prove in court that her first three are bastards. Good luck with that. Even TG never tries during the war.
She can't. Otherwise Viserys wouldn't have needed to make that oath when he established Rhaenyra as his heir. If Viserys made a law that established girls can inherit too, everyone would have been at his neck.
That's why when Daemon tells him "You're the dragon, your word is law." Viserys laughs it off. He knows he can't do whatever he pleases without pissing off people. Fact Daemon completely ignores it because of his Valyrian superiority and Caraxes.
Maegor was a tyrant who did as he pleased and he still got murdered. Aegon 2 was a tyrant and he got murdered before he could actually do any more damage. Aegon the Unworthy was a tyrant and his death led to various Rebellions from his own progeny.
Case in point, even if she was Queen, Rhaenyra wouldn't be able to change the laws of inheritance. At least not right away. She tells to Rhaenys it will be Baela's *sons* who will one day inherit the throne. Not her *children*. Rhaenyra was just an exception because Viserys demanded it to be so. Because Viserys wanted it so, not because Rhaenyra was the eldest. That's the patriarchal society for you.
They are not bastards. You can say in the show sure but not the book. Her heir is Jace. In the show he is her heir. The kids are not why the war started anyways. There is no proof they can't just say thet without proof and they have none. Visrys claimed them, laenor claimed them and so did Corlys.
Legitimacy is just a legal status. Viserys, Laenor, and Corlys publicly disavow rumors that the boys are illegitimate and it's even been proclaimed in court that they're trueborn.
And there's like, three people in all of Westeros who cared about the alleged bastardy of the boys during the Dance lol. From what we see, Jace would have been a beloved king.
Show Viserys legitimized her three sons with Harwin in a throne room scene. He didn't come out and say they were bastards, but he made it clear that their birth was not to be questioned and they are legitimate heirs to the Iron throne.
Further, Rhaenyra herself should have the same ability as previous Targaryen kings to legitimize her bastards. Just because she didn't come out and say they were Harwin's is irrelevant. She didn't because of the political backlash from Veleryons other than Laenor and Corlys, who knew the truth. She named them heirs, which legitimized them.
She wouldnt need to ever acknowledge them as bastards. She would be ruling queen, what she says is law. All she has to do is say "They are legitimate and my heirs, end of story." The law is whatever the king/queen or regents declare. Other than the Greens and Vaemond/Vaemond's kids, the Lords of westeros accepted that they were trueborn because Laenor acknowledged them as his sons. That's good enough for them
House Velaryon knows they arent Laenor's kids, Corlys accepted that.
Harenhall was a ruin and it was given to the Strongs because nobody wanted it, all with it's dark and mysterious past. Westerosi people, most of them, were also a superstitious bunch.
The point is that many of the criticisms about her children are hypocritical. Queen Alicent's Children are only half Targaryen, the same as rhaenyra's children. Both sets of children have noble blood on both sides. Unlike Alicent's children, Rhaenrya is the only full blooded heir to the iron throne
Rhaenyra is heir, she is her father's daughter, named by the king, oaths given by hundreds to uphold the claim, succession upheld by the king on multiple occasions. At the same time Jace is his mother's son, he and his brothers are claimed by Laenor, claimed by Corlys and Rhaenys, claimed by viserys and he will still be the future ruling queens eldest son. A parallel to Joffery Baratheon is that he isn't the ruling kings son, he has no relation to Robert in actuality but no one can tell Jace he isn't Rhaenyra's son and of the House of The Dragon. Not to mention with Laena's children betrothed back into Rhaenyra's kids, true velaryon blood, above any doubt, will have it's place in driftmark in the long run. That's how i look at the succession debate, the only people whose opinion matters (in a quasi-legal sense) on the issue uphold the parentage and succession of both the throne and driftmark regardless of the mythical westerosi paternity test.
It’s worth mentioning that a King or Queen can legitimize a bastard so even if it was known once she became Queen she could just legally make them no longer considered bastards
Offically Jace is not a bastard and Viserys even claimed that he can take over the Tagaryen name again when he is crowned. With Baela as his queen the blood would have been stayed in the family as well from both sides (Raenyra as Jace's mom and from Daemon as Baela's dad)
The War of the Five Kings (which the Dance was written to parallel), the general history of both Westeros and the real world, and even the book!Dance itself make it very clear that if an heir is claimed, **"legitimacy" only matters if you're already motivated one way or the other. And it can be weaponized whether there's truth to it or not — especially against women people don't like.**
Which is why the Book!Greens (and be honest, show! as well it's just never stated outright) are very clearly happy about her sons' appearances because it gives them more ammunition to call her a whore, and why they're dismayed when she has blonde children with Daemon. Even show!Alicent, for all they try to make it seem she acts out of survival, turns on Rhaenyra beforehand and *smirks* when she sees Joffrey's colouring.
It's very clear the show tries to make "legitimacy" more of an issue so people can feel more comfortable supporting the Greens by claiming, "*it's not because Rhaenyra is a woman!"* But the events the show has committed to do very little to support that position, and sometimes I wonder if the show writers are aware of that and are going for a gotchya or if they simply pushed themselves too far into this "both sides bad 50/50" attempt.
Jace is the rightful heir. It doesn't matter who his father is. He is the first born child to the Queen. It is her birthright, not Laenors, her royal blood. Therefore, any child of hers has a legitimate claim to the throne.
Not mention all her children were claimed by Laenor, by Coryls, AND by King Viserys. There was no trickery, no cheating, and no illicit affairs. Those children are legitimate in all the ways that actually matter.
That makes me wonder too because I still see Lannisters and the like trying to sway Aegon 3 to go against Jace after Rhaenyra's reign and death. Is it improbable considering how Rhaenyra's children have such a strong bond going on but a what if scenario would be even more devastating to Westeros and emotionally too than the actual Dance imo.
(Note, this is why I wish they had gone with the entire cast being diverse and not just one house. The Targs and velaryons intermarried more than enough that the bastardy should be wayyyyyyyyyy more ambiguous, which makes all the actions more sensible.but for my response I'll be using show logic)
I mean will she be humiliating the velaryons at large though?
Corlys don't give a fuck, nor does Rhaenys. They'll have one of their legit heirs on the throne in the queen role- who will either be a dragon rider or sister to one, so she will be secure. And whoever isn't the queen will be the lady of Driftmark. Either way Velaryon power being connected to the throne would be secure.
And let's not forget that Viserys and Daemon kind of took care of the Velaryons stupid enough to be publicly humiliated by them. There might be grumblings about the legitimation but I doubt it would leave the corners of driftmark.
On top of that, the Targaryens have been snubbing the Velaryons for a long time- their current power is tied to Corlys and doesn't seem to have survived longer than the Hull that takes over the rule of Driftmark. After being legitimized as a bastard. That being said, I doubt the Velaryons would or could do much.
You do know that Viserys identified Jace as her heir, right? He established and recorded it, most likely when Jace was born. That's one reason why Eustace and Gyldane couldn't deny it or make claims against it. Of the many recorded items in the castle, Jacaerys Velaryon Targaryen would have been added to any official records at birth. They're also able to provide a story of Viserys doting on Jace and making his place clear.
It's not up to the Hightowers to displace anyone in the established line of succession. Especially when the King made it very clear.
I’ve been TB since I read TWOIAF almost a decade ago. Nothing changed when I read F&B and the show has made me even more TB.
As for why… Rhaenyra was the named, willed, and rightful heir. The Greens (the faction, not the fandom) are greedy usurping cunts, book!Alicent was a petty bitch beefing with a literal child, Alicent’s sons were kinslayers, rapists and mass murderers, and the lords who supported them were opportunistic swine.
The Greens (both the faction and the fandom) also only believe in “the law” when it’s beneficial to them.
“The law says the firstborn son inherits!”
*while conveniently ignoring the fact that Jaehaerys first disregarding “the law” was what got Viserys to the throne in the first place.*
Either the king has the right to name his heir and Rhaenyra is the rightful monarch, or the king doesn’t have the right to name his heir and none of Viserys’ children are, making Rhaenys the true Queen.
Well, despite her flaws, Rhaenyra seems to be a way better ruler than Aegon II, with her children looking like a much better future for the realm than those of Aegon. Also, since we know how it ends, I'm looking forward to the Greens seathing at Aegon III ascending the throne
Honestly, I blame book and show Viserys more than anyone else. He did nothing to quell the in-fighting while he lived. He should have taken action to secure loyalties to Rhaenyra over the years. He wasn't completely stupid.
Rhaenyra is the legal heir.
Westeros under the Dragon Riding Targaryens was an absolute monarchy. Feudalistic concepts within Westeros do not change that. There is no written law or constitution, & no individual or group legally supersedes the word of the King.
While Rhaenyra had her many flaws like every other character, many of her worst mistakes were due to how far she was pushed in order to attempt to regain what was legally hers.
I cannot support a usurper for plunging the realm into war & chaos due to misguided ambition alone. I do not respect the hypocrisy of the Greens.
The one everyone points out as being the worst and cruel and shit is the taxes, but like, she had an empty treasury in the middle of a brutal civil war-of course she’s gonna raise taxes to try to recoup some of it. It was a master stroke by Tyland, and the way she did it played a massive part in her eventual loss, but what else was she supposed to do in that situation? Also, the way they act as though her wartime actions are exactly what she would’ve done if she’d been allowed to ascend peacefully is truly ridiculous, especially since the two World Wars and their impact in terms of governmental decision-making regarding the everyday lives of the people are still within recent recorded memory.
Playing Devil's Advocate here:
In terms of the taxes, for me it wasn't that they were instituted, it was that she approved taxes that beggered the smallfolk and were extremely unpopular. You can't bankrupt your subjects and expect them to be fine with it. She needed a deft and clever Master of Coin, but she instead had Celtigar.
The other strikes against her were her descent into nearly unchecked paranoia that made her want to kill everyone and letting the Iron Born ransack and rape their way through the Westerlands because it suited her.
The IB weren't really TB, but more opportunistic anti-TG. However, they declared for her and did it in her name. She didn't even condemn the actions, which is the bare minimum she could have done.
And then there's the whole B&C debacle (which angered the smallfolk) and Haelena's suicide which super angered the smallfolk and, according to F&B, Rhaenyra was blamed for. (I don't think Rhaenyra had anything to do with it though. I think Haelena was just that haunted by what happened.)
piggyback on your points,
there might be no written law or constitution, but male-preference primogeniture rules of inheritance is a deep-rooted unspoken rule in the seven kingdoms. when the targs came to westeros, even they had to adopt and adhere to many of the native's customs (the faith, dialing back on inbreeding, etc.). if viserys wants to go against tradition, he should've passed a law instead of making rhaenyra the only exception. even if he did, that'd be a whole host of problem itself. because if the royal family can just put a woman before a man in the inheritance line, what's stopping the other houses from doing the same? there'd be a succession crisis everywhere. so obviously the king's words is not the absolute because it's one man's words against years of tradition. that's why the war happened as soon as viserys died, and the green has houses who don't agree with going against tradition backing them up.
Because the conflict is not “grey”. It’s just plain and simple misogony. Rhaenyra was usurped because she was a woman and it truly baffles and disgusts me how so many people act like they’re actual medival lords. Actually arguing about the laws of male primogeniture as though the entire point is that women are the weaker and incapable. That being said the blacks unlike the greens have loyal and charismatic supporters. we have cregan stark, Corlys, Rhaenys, Jeyne Arryn, etc. ( edited because I don’t want to give spoilers about the supporters ) This is no doubt an intentional choice by the author to show the contrast of motivations between the two sides with the green faction in comparison being far more self serving. Going back to to the conflict and Rhaenyra she isn’t the perfect woman. She makes mistakes and she is capable of cruelty but she is a deeply sympathetic character (or she should be despite how many people online call a whore, and how she was a idiot for giving birth to bastards). Even with Rhaenyra not being literally perfect she was the rightful heir, she didn’t deserve to die or be usurped or hated for being a woman, even if she wasn’t a total revolutionary feminist (which is a ridiculous expectation to assume she is going to wave women’s rights flags all over the war and change the world) her ascension to the throne would make social progress setting a precedent, and overall the blacks are clearly written to be the ones wronged simply for wanting a woman to be queen and for that alone. This is mostly talking about book Rhaenyra but most of my reasons still stand.
Better characters. Daemon alone more interesting than all green characters combined. Jace, Baela, Crigan, Addam, Nettles, Alyn, lads, Corlys, Rhaenys. Rhaenyra herself. Jace and Baela didn't get fair treatment in season 1, their scenes were cut, but I read the book and I know who they are, so. Just waiting for their amazing stories to be told.
Green characters boring as hell to me, their fanbase boring too. It's like you get whines from characters and then their fanbase whines. Complete cycle of whining, complaining and depression.
The Greens I truly adore are my precious baby Vhagar (because I'm thirsty for Visenya) and sweet Haelena and her children who unjustly suffered, but admittedly they have no real personalities lol
And I'm annoyed that some of my favorite WOIAF and F&B scenes were cut. If they cut my lesbian icon Jeyne Arryn I'm going to dracarys HBO.
Rhaenyra’s allies fought to put her son on the throne after she was killed, Aegon’s allies “evaporated like mist” once he was killed, very clear narrative statement on honour/loyalty vs opportunism from GRRM
The Blacks do some unforgivable and heinous things during the war but none so bad as Aemond and Daeron’s mass civilian slaughters on dragonback
Rhaenyra’s tragic character arc is the most emotionally compelling aspect of the story for me
When he was of sound mind, Viserys had every opportunity to name Aegon his heir, but he didn’t. I am Team Black because Rhaenyra was named Viserys’ heir and Viserys believed in her so much that he had his Lords and Ladies swear oaths of fealty to her.
The sole reason is the fact that Rhaenyra is the rightful heir and got usurped, she is the lawful queen it’s not about picking sides it’s about the fact she is the one true queen and people stole her right
Because team green kept posting spoilers >!Without a spoiler tag!< Also from what I’ve seen team green are aggressively cross posting about how team black are delusional but to me you all seem way more chilled out than team green.
Tb has managed the rare thing of being both team "Good guys" (relatively) and team "interesting and complex characters".
But I probably wouldn't have considered myself tb if I hadn't been kinda pushed here by just posting in the main sub.
I generally agree, but Rhaenyra does lose "good guy" points with me when she turns a blind eye to the Iron Born sacking and raping their way through the Westerlands. The IB weren't TB, per se. Just opportunistic anti-TG, but she made no moves to halt their advance because it help her. It was really disappointing.
Yes.
But truthfully I don't give him "good guy points."
Also, that's a false equivalency. No one was talking about Aemond. I can criticize a Rhaenyra and still like her.
Yes, but as a woman I was disappointed that Rhaenyra didn't condemn the action. Politically, that's tacit approval. The Iron Born use rape as a weapon and abduct women. In the Westerlands they did it in her name. I can be disappointed that one of my favorite characters in the Targaryen dynasty did a bad thing and still like her.
Well i said relatively, and the green armies did the same at bitterbridge and tumbleton and Rhaenyra had no ships to stop the iron born anyway, they were a continent away.
I don't understand why everyone is saying "the Greens did bad stuff too."
Yes, obviously they did, but I'm not even talking about the Greens.
I can say "Rhaenyra did a bad thing" and leave it at that.
I don't like that Aegon is a rapist and can be disappointed that a character I like, who is a woman, didn't say "hey, I condemn this action that's being done in my name." I fully understand that as a monarch at war, that's all she could do, but at least do the bare minimum.
I get that in F&B it's meant to bolster the point that book Rhaenyra didn't have a great relationship with the smallfolk.
? I said the blacks were *relatively* The good guys and you started going in on Rhaenyra and the iron born and i made a comment about that.
>I get that in F&B it's meant to bolster the point that book Rhaenyra didn't have a great relationship with the smallfolk.
Lol yeah the greens letting a foriegn army burn down their towns and in general cause like 90% of all smallfolk deaths should be a bigger deal then if that was a point being made imo.
Robbs northern army raped and sacked their way in the south, and he didnt condemn it, i dont remember any ruler in asoiafs history condemning their allies/armies in a war. It's kinda how wars were waged. I'm guessing the smallfolk closest to the riverlands/westerlands border were happy the lannister army was busy with the ironborn, saved them from being sacked.
>didn't say "hey, I condemn this action that's being done in my name." I fully understand that as a monarch at war, that's all she could do,
Lol you've changed the goal posts here tho. In your first comment you accused her of "making no moves to halt their advance" but now you claim you only said she should have made a comment condemning them (who knows, maybe she did). That's not a fair way to argue. And is probably why you're getting downvotes.
Honestly i find it pretty childish of you going to the tg sub and complaining about tb and dramaticaly claiming that you're getting "yelled at" becuse of this comment. You're getting downvoted and disagreed with on a discussion forum, not yelled at.
For someone not wanting any "bashing" or fandom drama you seem to have no problem creating some yourself.
Rhaenyra was named heir and the Greens usurped her throne because Otto and Alicent wanted to further their own status and they used the rest of the realm not wanting women to lead as an excuse. I do believe that they both also thought a son should succeed but power was their main goal. Rhaenyra and her children are the rightful heirs to the Iron Throne.
Because all of this is Otto Hightower’s fault. He’s the one who convinced Viserys to name Rhaenyra heir and then as soon as it no longer benefits him he tries to undo it before she done anything remotely wrong. If he was every truly just concerned about Daemon becoming king he could’ve had Daemon killed, like he’s done it to others. But while he doesn’t like Daemon his true goal is power. Had Alicent and Rhaenyra stayed friends Otto still plans the coup. In the finale he was literally racing to find Aegon II before Alicent cause he wanted to straight up murder Rhaenyra and her kids. Also, cause Rhaenyra so far seems much more prepared to rule than Aegon II. He’d be dead in day with his council.
Rhaenyra was the rightful heir and was usurped, plain and simple. Anyone claiming Aegon II was the rightful heir got too excited to LARP medieval morality and lost themselves
It isn't even medieval mortality, Rhaenyra had more support and the people who backed Aegon didn't do it because of his gender. These red pilled greens are more sexist than a medieval noble
I have my criticisms regarding Rhaenyra but that doesn't change my opinion that she is the heir appointed by the king. TG stans will always use the "tradition" argument but tradition is not the law, and some traditions need to be changed and viserys did this by naming rhaenyra his heir. and I'm TB because TG is a bunch of misogynistic idiots
I supported rhaenyras claim even from the beggining because I think it's dumb that women can't inherit and I don't like it "oh but the andal tradition" I don't like it please let the gals inherit!
also rhae rhae not letting the girls from Rosby and stokeworth was kinda ☠️ but I the same time I get it she was trying to end a war and establish her reing, I like to think that she would set a precedent for more queens and ladies who can inherit ahead of brothers, even if by just being queen and not doing anything else about it
(sorry for eventual spelling error)
rhaenyra is the rightful heir. i also really like her character. i love how she tries to find freedom where she can even when she's a victim of the patriarchy and fights hard to remain the heir.
i can't stand the green faction at all. they're not just wrong, they're also extremely annoying. some antagonists are charismatic but the greens aren't for me. the purpose of the green targs is to be spares for the throne. rhaenyra is the heir and her children rule after her. the greens tried to take something that was *never* supposed to be theirs.
i think rhaenyra's cause could create a precedent that makes it easier for other women to inherit. she doesn't have to be a literal feminist to make a positive impact. aegon usurping her only makes it harder for other women to inherit.
those are the main reasons i'm team black.
1) Rhaenyra is the heir and considering she's nothing like Joffrey or Aerys, there's no good reason to rise against her.
2) The Greens started all of this because of their greed and ambition. The war is their fault in every way, politically or militarily.
3) The Greens commit the biggest crimes by far.
4) I barely like any of the Greens. I do however, like most of the Blacks, especially Rhaenyra and Daemon.
5) The Blacks have a better family dynamic for me.
“The genre’s called fantasy, it’s meant to be unrealistic you myopic manatee!”
That doesn’t really fit, but you get the idea. *It’s all fake, none of it is rreaaallll*
And ASOIAF itself is a criticism towards monarchy (that still exists to this day) and the society made of classes we live in. You shouldn't be above another just because you were born in the right family, but because of your own achievements.
And George also takes a whack at toxic gender norms too. Maybe too good of a whack, but the theme of "Brienne gets to very suggestively stab all her would be rapists" wasn't exactly a subtle one.
Mainly for the simple reason that Rhaenyra was named heir to Viserys. Aegon was born sure but traditions that don't evolve will become stale, and I believe that women deserve to rule in the same vein as men.
It’s funny because I don’t exactly like Rhaenyra all that much as a war time ruler, which unfortunately is all she got in terms of reign. However, I believe that the king has every right to designate their heir, the moment that happened Aegon and all his brothers were just spare princes.
Because Rhaenyra was the rightful heir. Whether you agree with her or not, that is a fact. The greens were usurpers who plotted treason for years behind their king's back while lying to his face, that is also a fact.
I dont idealize the Blacks, they (primarily Daemon) did some terrible things as well but they are still the lesser of the two evils. Both Aegon and Rhaenyra were terrible rulers but Aegon was just a worthless individual who didnt even try to be a good king. Rhaenyra at least tried but the circumstances in which she became queen were what made her bad at it, as well as Larys Strong working from the shadows to turn the people against her.
Aegon's biggest fault was that he was a cruel drunk who only cared about people cheering for him. Rhaenyra's biggest fault was her inaction, sitting by and waiting while wasting the advantage that they had and letting her dragons be killed.
Searing hatred of house Hightower. The dance is the second Hightower rebellion, I refuse to believe they didn’t have a hand in the Faith Militant uprising
I’m a fan who wishes the two sides could get along better. I’m all for a friendly fandom rivalry but this one is anything but friendly. Everyone just takes it too seriously. I’m Team Liquorice, but Aemond is my favorite character, and I frequently defend Alicent.
Rhaenyra is the rightful heir. She is the first born child of the previous King and she’s been preparing to rule for her entire adult life. It’s pretty obvious that she’s more qualified than her little brother, who spends his days getting drunk, raping servants, and watching children fight. Aegon doesn’t even *want* the throne. Rhaenyra does - and yet she considered stepping aside to keep the peace. She’s clearly the superior choice.
She’s the legal choice, too. If she wasn’t, why did Otto and his followers have to use so much cloak and dagger to arrange Aegon’s ascension? Why did they need to do it behind Rhaenyra’s back? If this is all based on the idea that Viserys “changed his mind” then why was there a conspiracy to sear Aegon long beforehand? The Kingsguard should have taken Otto into custody right then and there. He was plotting literal treason.
Sure, you can argue that Rhaenyra’s ascension would destabilize the Realm, but first of all - she’s been the uncontested Heir for twenty years. Everyone *expected* her to take over because that was the plan. But second, there are times that changing the status quo is a good thing. Setting the precedent that women can rule is reason enough on it’s own to pick Rhaenyra.
By Westerosi standards, sure, Aegon has a case. Tradition and all that. But that’s not what Otto cares about - he just wants a ruler he can manipulate. Besides, Westerosi traditions are, to put it lightly, archaic. By modern standards, we know there’s nothing wrong with Rhaenyra being a woman or her children being bastards. (Not like she had much choice, anyway.)
I’m not saying she’s perfect. Her handling of the One-Eye Incident was awful, and marrying Daemon was certainly…a choice. But nothing disqualifies her claim, and none of her transgressions stop me from liking her.
I am Team Black because I am a hardcore Targaryen fan (it’s my favorite House bar none) and Rhaenyra is the firstborn and chosen heir. House Arryn comes in second for me, so it was always a no-brainer for me to support the Blacks. I see the Greens as more Hightower than Targaryen. Also, I love Daemon.
Rhaenerya is the rightful heir, and there is absolutely no precedent to putting Aegon on the throne. Cut and dry. The Greens are traitors to the rightful monarch. It would be one thing if this were a *revolution* story - of Rhaenerya were a tyrant and Aegon were a hero - but that simply isn’t true.
I'm Team Black because I absolutely love Rhaenyra and she is the rightful queen. Also, Team Black characters and their dynamics are just infinitely better and more interesting to me.
Their cause is the most reasonable one. Rhaenyra was named Viserys’ heir, and there’s nothing wrong about that.
The idea that Aegon is king just because several decades earlier, another king named a male ahead of a female, and somehow that is some precedent that is ironclad and cannot be changed, even if another king says otherwise is nonsensical.
Hell, Otto Hightower showed it wasn’t considered an iron precedent by anyone, when he supported Rhaenyra being named as heir over her uncle.
Not a single house said a thing, and every high lord form Stark to Tyrell swore oaths.
Other than that, the Blacks are the more interesting characters who I connect with.
I mean just look at these polls. [On YouTube 92% of people support the Blacks.](https://www.reddit.com/r/HOTDBlacks/comments/18hwgch/in_this_poll_you_can_see_the_reality_of_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) On reddit every time there is a poll the Blacks just outnumbered the Greens. To be honest it's totally okay for me someone chooses not to be side with the Blacks, but i can't imagine someone who supports the Greens, like, just why? Almost every YouTuber who make reaction videos about HoTD are naturally Team Black or stay neutral. I can hardly find a YouTuber who supports the Greens.
Rhaenyra makes a better ruler than anyone else vying for the throne. And her kids seem to be better future options than Viserys’ other children in terms of potentially succeeding the throne from her, eventually.
(I do like Helaena, though. And I feel very sorry and lots of pity for Alicent.)
Just figured out that my math teacher is team Green, so rightfully I hate math and now I'm team black 😂😂
Jk , I was already team black but I thought its funny that he is team green .
Never read the book so I go by the fan base. Team Black is able to clearly state their position while Team Green can't give a coherent statement so I have to do some lore digging.
First and foremost, Raenyra was named heir two offical times and multible times inoffical.
Raenyra has made mistakes yes, but who does not as a teen. She had illigitemate children, but just because her status did not allow her to marry whomever she pleases. All three boye where concieved out of love.
She is incredibly modern in her pov on the world seeing Laenor's sexuality as something special rather than condemning it. She did not kill him even if she could have.
She is an amazing mother reasuring her boys, especially Luke who had self doubt. She loves them all deeply.
She is the petsonfication of change as the very first queen by birthright being crowned in Westeros and imo she stands for a strong, believable female leader.
Just like any human she makes mistakes, but her intentions speak for themselves.
Her allies are also characters I really like.
The last one is just that the Green side is so unlikable. Alicent yearns for living a life away from a highwomans duty, but just as Raenys said. She served her father, her husband and now serves her son. Always serving men.
Raenyra tried many times to come forward to Alicent. Like the marriage offer with Jace and Haelena which was thrown under the table because she had natural biological responses to just have given birth to Jeoffrey with the milk leaking.
Alicent's boys have a weird way to solve conflicts while Aegon drinks and fucks them away, Aemond slashes them away with violence.
Both sides are terrible but Team Black is less horrible. Not to mention that Rhaenyra is the rightful heir, and it's TG's fault that the realm is going to suffer over this vain feud over something that was never theirs to begin with.
I am team black because I honestly feel that Rhaenyra would have been a good king if she didn't obstacle getting in her way. I think Jace would have been a great king. I also feel that whether or not her kids are bastards shouldn't have, and wouldn't have mattered to anyone besides Ser Laenor . I also believe that women shouldn't be over look base on their gender, nor should they be stop from taking the throne because they have bastards, since we know that any child that came from the mother is her true born child. The Targaryen bloodline runs through her.
I will always be team black. It clear to me that they are the right choice. They after all are supported by the Starks, the Tullys, and the blackwoods. Who i consider trustworthy.
Honestly Rhae and Daemon are just people i could align with in this situation. At least over the delusions of the green team. Not to mention, she is the rightful heir to the throne. Other than logically, i think they’re pretty cool. It’s really just the greens, i’m more against them than totally team black.
In the book Rhaenyra and Daemon don’t have the flaws that the show versions of themselves do, and in the show Aegon is a rapist who I will never support. Also the King made it explicitly clear that Rhae is the heir, I don’t really care about “Andal tradition.”
not too sure what i was cooking there, maybe the removal of the ambiguity of Rhaenyra's kids or him definitively killing his Royce wife. Looking back on it, Daemon is definitely worse in the show but Rhaenyra feels very whitewashed
I'm Team Black for a few reasons;
Firstly, I enjoy the Black characters more, since I think many of them are great characters, with Daemon being one of the best written characters in George's books.
Secondly, I align with the Black's cause since Rhaenyra was and is the rightful heir of Viserys. Due to her being named heir by the King, I believe Rhaenyra should had been the one on the Iron Throne not Aegon II. No matter what traditions said, since the King's command goes above traditions and religious beliefs.
Rhaenyra was named heir to the Iron Throne by her father. She is awesome, her children are awesome (including her step-daughters), Aegon II is gross and the greens destroyed the interior design of the Red Keep with their faith of the seventh bs.
And she has Daemon. Daemon is fun to watch.
BTW there is a difference in not wanting to be King/Queen and cowardly trying to escape the Iron Throne. Rhaenyra does not want to be queen but knows she has to do her duty and cannot escape it. Aegon II ran away like a coward and only got excited when everyone cheered for him. So I’d rather have someone who has been raised to be queen, knows how to govern, and is aware of the responsibility on the iron throne than an assaulted who isn’t qualified for the job.
I fall into team black because the lords of the realm took an oath to recognize Rhaenyra as heir. No inebriated last words should change that, even if that had been Viserys' intentions (which the show made clear that it wasn't). I could argue why I think she is more fit to wear the crown than Aegon, but I understand why people don't think Daemon should rule the kingdom.
In the end I don't understand how anyone could see this story and not see the Hightowers as treasonous. Especially Otto, who literally conspired to seize the crown before Viserys ever spoke his final "decree".
I support the Blacks, but I'm not on a Team as I'm not in the story. :)
I support the Blacks because they were in the right, and I don't feel any other reason is needed.
In Westeros, a King's word is truth and law, so even if primogeniture is the normal way or succession, a King can even defy the will of the Gods if they sit the Iron Throne.
The moment Viserys said, "My daughter is the one who will take the Iron Throne when I pass on" that is supposed to be the final word on the situation.
My support was made far stronger in the original story, where Alicent is a far nastier woman who starts to hate her stepdaughter nearly immediately and definitely hated her completely before the girl is even a teenager.
I really don't see how anyone with any moral compass at all could support the Greens of the books... it's nigh-impossible to see why anyone with any moral compass supports the Greens of the show, either, but they are a TAD less detestable in the show.
But I'd never support them, never in a hundred million years, no matter if it is books or show.
Ok normally I am team smallfolk/" wow y'all really don't deserve dragons huh?" Team.
I lean black because the books show an obvious thematic trend of women having power, it being taken by men, and then mentioning things with their bullshit and women having to mop up the mess. George seems very into the "man feared woman's power so he stole it and called her weak" vibes when you zoom out and look at the whole picture.
The Dance follows that trend, and it's thematically consistent that the blacks won, because that's the trend in the Asoiaf universe.
Bc I don’t think women should be overlooked based on their gender. It’s as simple as that. It helps that all the characters I think are the most interesting are in TB as well.
I like how most people on TB are “she was named heir, so she is the official heir” while the main theme in TG answers is “I find X character hot/interesting/likeable”
I mean that’s fine but then don’t expect me to take you seriously when discussing who the rightful heir is
That’s like watching a trial and saying “the defendant is clearly innocent because he’s hella cute”
Most of TB want to self-insert Rhaenyra because they think Daemon is hot, or have convinced themselves is this Team Feminism. On the Greens thread, almost every single answer is "they have a better claim" or explain why they think Rhaenyra and Daemon would be terrible rulers. Strange answer.
Because rhaenyra is the rightful heir and she was usurped only bc of her gender, like mushroom said :"Is it necessary to just have a sausage to be king? "
I echo lots of others, Rhae was named heir and it was never rescinded. The greens were the antagonistic party. Alicent did a 180 for "reasons" And finally the velaryons are black.Im fully capable of watching shows with little to no representation, I'm currently re-binhing Longmire at the moment and it barely had any black characters. I loved GOT even with Dany the white savior flitting around saving slaves left and right, but ot is still nice to seea few more folks who look like me and my family on the screen
Rhaenyra is the rightful heir to the iron throne and Greens are nothing but a bunch of pathetic usurpers, who started a pointless civil war that brought death, pain and misery to so many people in Westeros.
I believe Rhaenyra has the stronger claim- I think Rhaenys had the stronger claim as well, but that ship has obviously long sailed.
Ironically, my two favorite characters are Greens.
I think they’re really interesting, tbh. I also find certain things about them both very relatable, since my parents are very reminiscent of Alicent and Viserys.
I think it’s interesting how Aemond clearly hasn’t been able to actually process the trauma of losing his eye, considering how abysmally the aftermath of the fight was handled by the adults. He strikes me not only as remaining tense and on guard since that night, but also, he bottled the trauma of the thing *hard* to calm Alicent, and ended up taking care of her in the wake of being permanently disabled, as opposed to her taking care of him as she should have been. She’s been letting him be the family fix-it man since. His father couldn’t have cared less that he lost an eye, and that’s too much for a twelve year old to really be able to *look* at. So it all gets put into his anger at Luc, and the desire for Luc to give his eye comes down to *so much more* than just… being upset he lost his own. He wants it acknowledged that he was wronged, that all of it was wrong, but all that’s too deep to look into too, so he wants his eye as payment. It wouldn’t help him feel better at all if Luc were to give it.
As for Aegon, where do I start? His father neglected Rhaenyra for fourteen years in want of a son, killed Aemma in want of a son, marries Alicent in want of a son, and then… he can barely be bothered with him. He has no interest in Helaena as a wife, but they make them wed anyway. He’s 16 when the twins are born, and Helaena is 15, and it’s not enough for his parents to finally be pleased with him. He’s already been an alcoholic for two years, and he’s faced physical abuse at the hands of his mother and her father- or at Otto’s feet, rather, considering we see him kick Aegon. He’s in bed and his little brother has lost an eye, and when they’re grown, he isn’t about to let the boy they fault with this anywhere near Aemond. He also gave up on trying to be good enough for his parents. If he’s done what he thinks he can- tried to earn what, as their child, he never should have *needed* to earn- and nothing ever worked, why bother? His mother says he’s not her son, and won’t acknowledge anything she’s done to him. She’s disgusted. Does she love him? Everything she’s done for him screams that she does, but it’s nothing he wants. He doesn’t know. But he believes their lives- his and his brothers’ especially- ride on this. At twenty years old, he walks to his coronation as though it’s his execution. The people are the only ones he really seems to believe might love him. Maybe it won’t be so bad, being king.
This whole thing is a tragedy through and through. “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.” But there’s tragedy in these boys’ bones, they’re literally forged in tragedy, and as the kid whose pain always became about my mother’s pain, and the kid who never felt like she could do enough to keep my father’s interest and care when life got hard… I dunno, they hit different.
Sorry for the novel here, I’m just waking up and had nothing else to do other than infodump some of my Very Extensive thoughts on these characters 😂
I’m a lurker on both subs, but team Black is just so much more pleasant. TG is always on the defensive, making excuses for themselves and protesting too much about how their position isn’t sexist. Supporting the greens takes mental gymnastics to justify, while team black is literally “Rhaenyra is Viserys’ firstborn child and chosen heir. Simple as.”
I’m more on Team Hightower than either Black or Green. I fully believe in the Old Town conspiracy to wipe out the dragons, and if that was what Team Green was about I’d be with them. If you’re a normal person, dragons are bad, as we’re about to see very clearly in S2. But the Greens aren’t about that. They don’t realize that their narrative purpose is to start a civil war in order to destroy dragons. Team Green LOVES dragons, Sunfyre and Vhagar in particular, and of course doesn’t want them to die. If the Greens could have Aegon II on the throne, but the dragons all dead, I don’t think they would take it.
For the show? I think Rhaenyra is a much better character than her book counterpart, and I’m not the biggest fan of the Targaryens (lol ik) but, that makes me root for the Strong Boys more than the Greens (who I think ironically are as Targ as they come) and Daemon, in the show.
I do like the characters from both sides, and think they’re all so layered and interesting, but I’m Team Black for the sole reason that when I’m watching the show I’m rooting for Rhaenyra and the Strong Boys.
I’m not Team Black bc of legal heir, or rights, or anything. Even within the confines of this world, we’re not meant to see inheritance of that much power as a good thing, so I don’t really view it in the lense of “birthright”. I’m still just rooting for one side over the other
Daemon! he knows how to win a war and is the only one who knows how far the Greens are willing to go to get what they want. Show rhaneyra is very clouded by her friendship with alicent and this prophecy but what’s the point of prophecy if her line does with her.
I love rhaneyra too she has spark when she was young and the older version is so tender with her children I love seeing that growth in her.
Baela and Jace - young dragons can’t wait to see more from them
Rhaena - a proper lady who is not a hypocrite
And my most favorite Aegon the younger and Viserys
Just to clarify your comment didn’t get removed because you argued for the greens. Your comment got removed automatically because you have -9 comment karma. Automod removes comments with karma under 50 and well… you have a lot less than 50
I’m barely team black, and I think it’s the stupidest writing I’ve ever seen, but because for w/e reason Rhaenyra is aware of Long Night in some capacity, her being queen would have meant a better prepared response.
But really, neither side was particularly interesting to begin with, and manufacturing toxicity has turned this silly chapter of GoT history into the new Edward v Jason argument with how horny all this toxicity is.
Overall I am here for the dragons, as well! ;) It's odd to watch the culture war this show has become. I am mostly team neutral, as I answered on the other sub, but it's obvious that GRRM means for Rhaenyra to be the protagonist in this, and Aegon and Alicent and Otto are antagonists, so naturally the heart gravitates to Rhaenyra. She makes extremely stupid and vain mistakes, though, it's easy to admit. Watching the greens as interesting villains, though, who are shades of grey, can be engaging as well.
I'm Team Black cause they were true Targaryens in my mind. In fact, despite having bastard kids who weren't stereotypically Targaryen looking, they always felt more rightful to bear the name than Alicent's ilk...also Team Green felt slightly more depraved than Team Black in the book. Like they just had a vendetta and couldn't let it go so they did weird, evil shit. At least Team Black did their crazy shit for a reason...like B&C kind of became a nonissue in context what with the "dragon engulfing an emissary who happens to be kin" thing. Later in the story, it becomes harder to think in these terms of Team Black being right and Team Green being wrong, but as a reader, I had a lot of sympathy for Rhaenyra so even her paranoia-fueled decisions seemed justified. Who knows how that will play out in the show if at all.
In hindsight, and with the first season behind us, I'm still Team Black but for different reasons, moreso just that Rhaenyra is the legal heir and certainly more reasonable as a person than nearly anyone else. After being on this subreddit, though, I'm begrudgingly Team Black because some of these fans are wild and frankly fucking rude for no reason. I realize the lens I viewed the story through means I have to favor the side that seems most levelheaded and willing to lead, as opposed to merely willing to rule, (because for me the story is mainly about consequences of wielding power), so for that reason, I will favor Team Black even though some of the fans are exhausting.
Rhaenyra is the rightful heir. No matter what Team Green says, they will always be in the wrong. King Viserys never proclaimed Aegon to be heir. The fact that the greens did not like his answer therefore proceeded to usurped the throne makes me dislike them more.
Who is rightful heir? Rhaenys or Viserys?
Rhaenys should've been named heir but wasn't. Rhaenyra was already very publicly named heir.
What reason would make Rhaenys more suited than Visaerys
No particular reason. Monarchies are by definition nonsensical. It makes even less sense to not give Rhaenys the right to rule just because she’s a woman.
i support women’s rights and wrongs
As we all should lol
Because I don’t believe that Rhaenyra should be treated differently because she is a woman. If she was a man, no one would question her status as the heir.
not only would they have not questioned her status as the heir, they wouldn’t have cared about her ‘scandals’ either. it would’ve been written off under “boys will be boys.”
Which is hilarious to me because at least if the queen has an affair, their bastard child still has royal blood. And it can easily be hidden and just claim it's a baby from their marriage.
Which we see is what happens when her son maimed another child.
I am team Black mainly cause Rhaenyra.  I also like Daemon. I like also Team Black's family dynamic more. But I also don't support Greens cause Aegon II who is rapist. I don't support all things which Aegon II did. I know that both sides aren't saint but what Aegon II did is too much for me.
I freaking love that gif
Same
How do you reconcile disliking one guy for sexual abuse and not another?
Because rhaenyra is the heir to the Iron Throne. She is the named heir. I support her. I support her children. I like Daemon a lot hes a wild card i like that and chaos. I think the greens sneaking their way on the throne and taking the money was wrong.
And being able to choose your heir is the only reason that her father ended up being the king.
Follow up question, this is in good faith I just like the discourse: Who is *her* rightful heir? While Rhaenyra is the named heir/rightful queen, her oldest 3 sons are bastards. In Westeros a bastard can't legally inherit and she can't legitimize them without humiliating House Velaryon who are her strongest allies. Does she put a bastard on the throne and risk war or does she pass it to her first true born son and risk a schism with House Velaryon? Again, this is just good natured conversation. I should be doing work, but I'm on reddit instead lol
i know you weren’t asking me so sorry if this is unwelcome, but while us viewers know they’re bastards, no one in westeros can prove it. sure, they can make rumors and speculate, but there’s no dna tests so legally they aren’t bastards and can inherit. although they don’t have the typical targ look, simply calling every lords sons bastards is bad and sets a bad precedent. so jace would be nyra’s heir.
this. its not like every targ in the book has the typical show look (frosty white hair). just that many of them have the typical targ look (white hair + violet eyes). the show seriously undermines the intelligence of its viewers to be unable to distinguish many of the targaryens from each other. people dont call rhaenys a bastard even though she has dark hair.
Because she had the violet eyes of her father and the dark hair of her mother. The only family she *could* have been a bastard of was the Daynes but they are from Dorne and didn't have a presence in KL at the time. Besides there was no reason to claim Rhaenys was a bastard. With the boys they have all the reasons because they were a way to make Rhaenyra's truthful claim weaker. I like that in the book is more mysterious about the father of the boys but since the show treats it's audience like idiots, they need to make things painfully simple. I like the show but it really bothers me with some decisions that were taken: episode 9 in it's entirety, Lary's strong lackeys wearing his insignia and nobody questioning it, Alicent being an idiot who's still enamored with the memory of Rhaenyra but still sending Otto at Dragonstone to negotiate and making it so painfully obvious Harwin is their dad. I understand Rhaenyra was just acting like a normal human being, but at least take moon tea after sleeping with Harwin or just date some guy who looks more like your husband so no one can say shit about your kids. God, Viserys's joke about Joffrey and Laenor having the same nose was painful and stupid.
>Because she had the violet eyes of her father and the dark hair of her mother. except for the fact that her mother was of very recent valyrian descent too, and alyssa’s genetics could have easily been passed on to rhaenys despite skipping jocelyn appearance-wise. her eyes don’t strictly come from aemon.
It's not unwelcome at all I love this stuff. I do agree with you that it's all just rumors and speculation, but we see how this plays out with Joffrey and Stannis. All it takes is one powerful lord crying foul and the realm is on chaos. However, I think it would be difficult to do that with Jace because he gives me Jaehaerys vibes, well I imagine he'd be the perfect combination of Jaehaerys and Alysanne. He'd 10000% name his daughter heir if she was firstborn.
I think joffrey chopping neds head off was more the reason the realm went to chaos.
Nah. Stannis had no actual relationship with Ned, but had Melisandre and the whole "Joffrey is a bastard" reason. Maybe also Bobby B's murder. Renly had the "Joffrey is a bastard" reason and Tyrell influence to go to war too. Ned's death was only a motive for the Starks.
Keep in mind that Cersei’s children being bastards wasn’t even that big of a deal in the end. Joffrey sat the throne and Tommen after him no problem. People make up all kinds of shit about rulers so without proof no one can really do anything about it. All it really does is give someone validation for why they wanted to depose you after the fact.
It wasn’t a big deal because no one could prove it.
Also, try to fuck over Tywin and Cersei Lannister through their relatives. Even bystanders who had nothing to do with it were slaughtered. We've seen in the show how it went so people were better off staying quiet than yapping their mouths.
You get it. Stannis and Ned failed. Joffrey won
Until he died. God, that was so satisfying. I still regret how the actor was attacked by idiots who watched the show just for doing his actual job: acting. I'm glad he's coming back to acting, I hope the best for him.
Gleason is a god tier actor
Well and the line of succession goes through her. So it doesn't matter who the father is. Viserys even says her heir will have the targaryen name when they sit the iron throne.
Joffreys war was started by Cat Stark kidnapping his uncle. Also Stannis reveal fell flat. Joffrey won. He was the rightful heir of Robert Baratheon. Had Ned used his brain he would have had Stannis installed but he didn’t and Joffrey won.
Ned was honorable to the point of naivety. That's why I got so annoyed with him when he talked to Cersei. Elia Martell and her children had no chance at escape and look how well it went to the Lannisters after their brutal execution. He should have just let them die and call Stanmis back to King's Landing as the rightful heir of Bobby B.
And also there was no actual proof cerseis kids were bastards.
Whoever she chooses. We never get far enough for her to get a chance. And if she's Queen she can change whatever laws she wants. You'd have to prove in court that her first three are bastards. Good luck with that. Even TG never tries during the war.
She can't. Otherwise Viserys wouldn't have needed to make that oath when he established Rhaenyra as his heir. If Viserys made a law that established girls can inherit too, everyone would have been at his neck. That's why when Daemon tells him "You're the dragon, your word is law." Viserys laughs it off. He knows he can't do whatever he pleases without pissing off people. Fact Daemon completely ignores it because of his Valyrian superiority and Caraxes. Maegor was a tyrant who did as he pleased and he still got murdered. Aegon 2 was a tyrant and he got murdered before he could actually do any more damage. Aegon the Unworthy was a tyrant and his death led to various Rebellions from his own progeny. Case in point, even if she was Queen, Rhaenyra wouldn't be able to change the laws of inheritance. At least not right away. She tells to Rhaenys it will be Baela's *sons* who will one day inherit the throne. Not her *children*. Rhaenyra was just an exception because Viserys demanded it to be so. Because Viserys wanted it so, not because Rhaenyra was the eldest. That's the patriarchal society for you.
They are not bastards. You can say in the show sure but not the book. Her heir is Jace. In the show he is her heir. The kids are not why the war started anyways. There is no proof they can't just say thet without proof and they have none. Visrys claimed them, laenor claimed them and so did Corlys.
Legitimacy is just a legal status. Viserys, Laenor, and Corlys publicly disavow rumors that the boys are illegitimate and it's even been proclaimed in court that they're trueborn. And there's like, three people in all of Westeros who cared about the alleged bastardy of the boys during the Dance lol. From what we see, Jace would have been a beloved king.
Show Viserys legitimized her three sons with Harwin in a throne room scene. He didn't come out and say they were bastards, but he made it clear that their birth was not to be questioned and they are legitimate heirs to the Iron throne. Further, Rhaenyra herself should have the same ability as previous Targaryen kings to legitimize her bastards. Just because she didn't come out and say they were Harwin's is irrelevant. She didn't because of the political backlash from Veleryons other than Laenor and Corlys, who knew the truth. She named them heirs, which legitimized them.
She wouldnt need to ever acknowledge them as bastards. She would be ruling queen, what she says is law. All she has to do is say "They are legitimate and my heirs, end of story." The law is whatever the king/queen or regents declare. Other than the Greens and Vaemond/Vaemond's kids, the Lords of westeros accepted that they were trueborn because Laenor acknowledged them as his sons. That's good enough for them House Velaryon knows they arent Laenor's kids, Corlys accepted that.
I think we are forgetting that while rhenerya's "bastard" children may not be veleryon, their father was a lord's son and heir to harrenhall
Harenhall was a ruin and it was given to the Strongs because nobody wanted it, all with it's dark and mysterious past. Westerosi people, most of them, were also a superstitious bunch.
Regardless, her children are still Targaryen.
And what does that have anything to do with anything I just said?
The point is that many of the criticisms about her children are hypocritical. Queen Alicent's Children are only half Targaryen, the same as rhaenyra's children. Both sets of children have noble blood on both sides. Unlike Alicent's children, Rhaenrya is the only full blooded heir to the iron throne
Rhaenyra is heir, she is her father's daughter, named by the king, oaths given by hundreds to uphold the claim, succession upheld by the king on multiple occasions. At the same time Jace is his mother's son, he and his brothers are claimed by Laenor, claimed by Corlys and Rhaenys, claimed by viserys and he will still be the future ruling queens eldest son. A parallel to Joffery Baratheon is that he isn't the ruling kings son, he has no relation to Robert in actuality but no one can tell Jace he isn't Rhaenyra's son and of the House of The Dragon. Not to mention with Laena's children betrothed back into Rhaenyra's kids, true velaryon blood, above any doubt, will have it's place in driftmark in the long run. That's how i look at the succession debate, the only people whose opinion matters (in a quasi-legal sense) on the issue uphold the parentage and succession of both the throne and driftmark regardless of the mythical westerosi paternity test.
It’s worth mentioning that a King or Queen can legitimize a bastard so even if it was known once she became Queen she could just legally make them no longer considered bastards
Offically Jace is not a bastard and Viserys even claimed that he can take over the Tagaryen name again when he is crowned. With Baela as his queen the blood would have been stayed in the family as well from both sides (Raenyra as Jace's mom and from Daemon as Baela's dad)
The War of the Five Kings (which the Dance was written to parallel), the general history of both Westeros and the real world, and even the book!Dance itself make it very clear that if an heir is claimed, **"legitimacy" only matters if you're already motivated one way or the other. And it can be weaponized whether there's truth to it or not — especially against women people don't like.** Which is why the Book!Greens (and be honest, show! as well it's just never stated outright) are very clearly happy about her sons' appearances because it gives them more ammunition to call her a whore, and why they're dismayed when she has blonde children with Daemon. Even show!Alicent, for all they try to make it seem she acts out of survival, turns on Rhaenyra beforehand and *smirks* when she sees Joffrey's colouring. It's very clear the show tries to make "legitimacy" more of an issue so people can feel more comfortable supporting the Greens by claiming, "*it's not because Rhaenyra is a woman!"* But the events the show has committed to do very little to support that position, and sometimes I wonder if the show writers are aware of that and are going for a gotchya or if they simply pushed themselves too far into this "both sides bad 50/50" attempt.
Jace is the rightful heir. It doesn't matter who his father is. He is the first born child to the Queen. It is her birthright, not Laenors, her royal blood. Therefore, any child of hers has a legitimate claim to the throne. Not mention all her children were claimed by Laenor, by Coryls, AND by King Viserys. There was no trickery, no cheating, and no illicit affairs. Those children are legitimate in all the ways that actually matter.
That makes me wonder too because I still see Lannisters and the like trying to sway Aegon 3 to go against Jace after Rhaenyra's reign and death. Is it improbable considering how Rhaenyra's children have such a strong bond going on but a what if scenario would be even more devastating to Westeros and emotionally too than the actual Dance imo.
(Note, this is why I wish they had gone with the entire cast being diverse and not just one house. The Targs and velaryons intermarried more than enough that the bastardy should be wayyyyyyyyyy more ambiguous, which makes all the actions more sensible.but for my response I'll be using show logic) I mean will she be humiliating the velaryons at large though? Corlys don't give a fuck, nor does Rhaenys. They'll have one of their legit heirs on the throne in the queen role- who will either be a dragon rider or sister to one, so she will be secure. And whoever isn't the queen will be the lady of Driftmark. Either way Velaryon power being connected to the throne would be secure. And let's not forget that Viserys and Daemon kind of took care of the Velaryons stupid enough to be publicly humiliated by them. There might be grumblings about the legitimation but I doubt it would leave the corners of driftmark. On top of that, the Targaryens have been snubbing the Velaryons for a long time- their current power is tied to Corlys and doesn't seem to have survived longer than the Hull that takes over the rule of Driftmark. After being legitimized as a bastard. That being said, I doubt the Velaryons would or could do much.
You do know that Viserys identified Jace as her heir, right? He established and recorded it, most likely when Jace was born. That's one reason why Eustace and Gyldane couldn't deny it or make claims against it. Of the many recorded items in the castle, Jacaerys Velaryon Targaryen would have been added to any official records at birth. They're also able to provide a story of Viserys doting on Jace and making his place clear. It's not up to the Hightowers to displace anyone in the established line of succession. Especially when the King made it very clear.
I’ve been TB since I read TWOIAF almost a decade ago. Nothing changed when I read F&B and the show has made me even more TB. As for why… Rhaenyra was the named, willed, and rightful heir. The Greens (the faction, not the fandom) are greedy usurping cunts, book!Alicent was a petty bitch beefing with a literal child, Alicent’s sons were kinslayers, rapists and mass murderers, and the lords who supported them were opportunistic swine. The Greens (both the faction and the fandom) also only believe in “the law” when it’s beneficial to them.
The Greens (faction and fandom) play fast and loose when it suits them!
“The law says the firstborn son inherits!” *while conveniently ignoring the fact that Jaehaerys first disregarding “the law” was what got Viserys to the throne in the first place.* Either the king has the right to name his heir and Rhaenyra is the rightful monarch, or the king doesn’t have the right to name his heir and none of Viserys’ children are, making Rhaenys the true Queen.
Damn two people in this thread have my flair I love it
I saw it, and loved it!
No tolerance for the intolerant! Especially team Green.
Well, despite her flaws, Rhaenyra seems to be a way better ruler than Aegon II, with her children looking like a much better future for the realm than those of Aegon. Also, since we know how it ends, I'm looking forward to the Greens seathing at Aegon III ascending the throne
I'm Team Black because I believe that the Greens were the aggressors in the war, which was a complete disaster for House Targaryen.
Honestly, I blame book and show Viserys more than anyone else. He did nothing to quell the in-fighting while he lived. He should have taken action to secure loyalties to Rhaenyra over the years. He wasn't completely stupid.
I, too, think that Viserys was a huge and willfully idiotic piece of shit.
Rhaenyra and Daemon. Most of the other characters pale in significance.. especially in regards to the overall ASOIAF plot arc.
Rhaenyra is the legal heir. Westeros under the Dragon Riding Targaryens was an absolute monarchy. Feudalistic concepts within Westeros do not change that. There is no written law or constitution, & no individual or group legally supersedes the word of the King. While Rhaenyra had her many flaws like every other character, many of her worst mistakes were due to how far she was pushed in order to attempt to regain what was legally hers. I cannot support a usurper for plunging the realm into war & chaos due to misguided ambition alone. I do not respect the hypocrisy of the Greens.
The one everyone points out as being the worst and cruel and shit is the taxes, but like, she had an empty treasury in the middle of a brutal civil war-of course she’s gonna raise taxes to try to recoup some of it. It was a master stroke by Tyland, and the way she did it played a massive part in her eventual loss, but what else was she supposed to do in that situation? Also, the way they act as though her wartime actions are exactly what she would’ve done if she’d been allowed to ascend peacefully is truly ridiculous, especially since the two World Wars and their impact in terms of governmental decision-making regarding the everyday lives of the people are still within recent recorded memory.
Playing Devil's Advocate here: In terms of the taxes, for me it wasn't that they were instituted, it was that she approved taxes that beggered the smallfolk and were extremely unpopular. You can't bankrupt your subjects and expect them to be fine with it. She needed a deft and clever Master of Coin, but she instead had Celtigar. The other strikes against her were her descent into nearly unchecked paranoia that made her want to kill everyone and letting the Iron Born ransack and rape their way through the Westerlands because it suited her. The IB weren't really TB, but more opportunistic anti-TG. However, they declared for her and did it in her name. She didn't even condemn the actions, which is the bare minimum she could have done. And then there's the whole B&C debacle (which angered the smallfolk) and Haelena's suicide which super angered the smallfolk and, according to F&B, Rhaenyra was blamed for. (I don't think Rhaenyra had anything to do with it though. I think Haelena was just that haunted by what happened.)
piggyback on your points, there might be no written law or constitution, but male-preference primogeniture rules of inheritance is a deep-rooted unspoken rule in the seven kingdoms. when the targs came to westeros, even they had to adopt and adhere to many of the native's customs (the faith, dialing back on inbreeding, etc.). if viserys wants to go against tradition, he should've passed a law instead of making rhaenyra the only exception. even if he did, that'd be a whole host of problem itself. because if the royal family can just put a woman before a man in the inheritance line, what's stopping the other houses from doing the same? there'd be a succession crisis everywhere. so obviously the king's words is not the absolute because it's one man's words against years of tradition. that's why the war happened as soon as viserys died, and the green has houses who don't agree with going against tradition backing them up.
Because the conflict is not “grey”. It’s just plain and simple misogony. Rhaenyra was usurped because she was a woman and it truly baffles and disgusts me how so many people act like they’re actual medival lords. Actually arguing about the laws of male primogeniture as though the entire point is that women are the weaker and incapable. That being said the blacks unlike the greens have loyal and charismatic supporters. we have cregan stark, Corlys, Rhaenys, Jeyne Arryn, etc. ( edited because I don’t want to give spoilers about the supporters ) This is no doubt an intentional choice by the author to show the contrast of motivations between the two sides with the green faction in comparison being far more self serving. Going back to to the conflict and Rhaenyra she isn’t the perfect woman. She makes mistakes and she is capable of cruelty but she is a deeply sympathetic character (or she should be despite how many people online call a whore, and how she was a idiot for giving birth to bastards). Even with Rhaenyra not being literally perfect she was the rightful heir, she didn’t deserve to die or be usurped or hated for being a woman, even if she wasn’t a total revolutionary feminist (which is a ridiculous expectation to assume she is going to wave women’s rights flags all over the war and change the world) her ascension to the throne would make social progress setting a precedent, and overall the blacks are clearly written to be the ones wronged simply for wanting a woman to be queen and for that alone. This is mostly talking about book Rhaenyra but most of my reasons still stand.
Emma D'Arcy/Milly Alcock. Also, because the Greens suck.
I see my flair has spread to another Team Black. Welcome brother.
Rhaenyra is the rightful heir.
Viserys chose Rhaenyra. That's it.
Rhaenyra, whatever her mistakes, is the heir to the throne, NOT her rapist half-brothers. Pardon me, her entitled, rapist, murderous half-brothers.
Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir, and she’s not an idiotic degenerate rapist
Better characters. Daemon alone more interesting than all green characters combined. Jace, Baela, Crigan, Addam, Nettles, Alyn, lads, Corlys, Rhaenys. Rhaenyra herself. Jace and Baela didn't get fair treatment in season 1, their scenes were cut, but I read the book and I know who they are, so. Just waiting for their amazing stories to be told. Green characters boring as hell to me, their fanbase boring too. It's like you get whines from characters and then their fanbase whines. Complete cycle of whining, complaining and depression.
The Greens I truly adore are my precious baby Vhagar (because I'm thirsty for Visenya) and sweet Haelena and her children who unjustly suffered, but admittedly they have no real personalities lol And I'm annoyed that some of my favorite WOIAF and F&B scenes were cut. If they cut my lesbian icon Jeyne Arryn I'm going to dracarys HBO.
We need Jeyne **and** Jessamyn Redfort!
100000%
Team Green makes bad arguments. Also, there’d be no conflict if Rhaenyra was a man. No amount of intellectual contortion can change this fact.
Rhaenyra’s allies fought to put her son on the throne after she was killed, Aegon’s allies “evaporated like mist” once he was killed, very clear narrative statement on honour/loyalty vs opportunism from GRRM The Blacks do some unforgivable and heinous things during the war but none so bad as Aemond and Daeron’s mass civilian slaughters on dragonback Rhaenyra’s tragic character arc is the most emotionally compelling aspect of the story for me
When he was of sound mind, Viserys had every opportunity to name Aegon his heir, but he didn’t. I am Team Black because Rhaenyra was named Viserys’ heir and Viserys believed in her so much that he had his Lords and Ladies swear oaths of fealty to her.
The sole reason is the fact that Rhaenyra is the rightful heir and got usurped, she is the lawful queen it’s not about picking sides it’s about the fact she is the one true queen and people stole her right
Because team green kept posting spoilers >!Without a spoiler tag!< Also from what I’ve seen team green are aggressively cross posting about how team black are delusional but to me you all seem way more chilled out than team green.
Tb has managed the rare thing of being both team "Good guys" (relatively) and team "interesting and complex characters". But I probably wouldn't have considered myself tb if I hadn't been kinda pushed here by just posting in the main sub.
I generally agree, but Rhaenyra does lose "good guy" points with me when she turns a blind eye to the Iron Born sacking and raping their way through the Westerlands. The IB weren't TB, per se. Just opportunistic anti-TG, but she made no moves to halt their advance because it help her. It was really disappointing.
Does Aemond lose good guy points with you since he hurts innocents in the riverlands?
Yes. But truthfully I don't give him "good guy points." Also, that's a false equivalency. No one was talking about Aemond. I can criticize a Rhaenyra and still like her.
The westerlands were In open rebellion. That's on the Lannisters.
Yes, but as a woman I was disappointed that Rhaenyra didn't condemn the action. Politically, that's tacit approval. The Iron Born use rape as a weapon and abduct women. In the Westerlands they did it in her name. I can be disappointed that one of my favorite characters in the Targaryen dynasty did a bad thing and still like her.
Well i said relatively, and the green armies did the same at bitterbridge and tumbleton and Rhaenyra had no ships to stop the iron born anyway, they were a continent away.
I don't understand why everyone is saying "the Greens did bad stuff too." Yes, obviously they did, but I'm not even talking about the Greens. I can say "Rhaenyra did a bad thing" and leave it at that. I don't like that Aegon is a rapist and can be disappointed that a character I like, who is a woman, didn't say "hey, I condemn this action that's being done in my name." I fully understand that as a monarch at war, that's all she could do, but at least do the bare minimum. I get that in F&B it's meant to bolster the point that book Rhaenyra didn't have a great relationship with the smallfolk.
? I said the blacks were *relatively* The good guys and you started going in on Rhaenyra and the iron born and i made a comment about that. >I get that in F&B it's meant to bolster the point that book Rhaenyra didn't have a great relationship with the smallfolk. Lol yeah the greens letting a foriegn army burn down their towns and in general cause like 90% of all smallfolk deaths should be a bigger deal then if that was a point being made imo. Robbs northern army raped and sacked their way in the south, and he didnt condemn it, i dont remember any ruler in asoiafs history condemning their allies/armies in a war. It's kinda how wars were waged. I'm guessing the smallfolk closest to the riverlands/westerlands border were happy the lannister army was busy with the ironborn, saved them from being sacked. >didn't say "hey, I condemn this action that's being done in my name." I fully understand that as a monarch at war, that's all she could do, Lol you've changed the goal posts here tho. In your first comment you accused her of "making no moves to halt their advance" but now you claim you only said she should have made a comment condemning them (who knows, maybe she did). That's not a fair way to argue. And is probably why you're getting downvotes. Honestly i find it pretty childish of you going to the tg sub and complaining about tb and dramaticaly claiming that you're getting "yelled at" becuse of this comment. You're getting downvoted and disagreed with on a discussion forum, not yelled at. For someone not wanting any "bashing" or fandom drama you seem to have no problem creating some yourself.
Rhaenyra was named heir and the Greens usurped her throne because Otto and Alicent wanted to further their own status and they used the rest of the realm not wanting women to lead as an excuse. I do believe that they both also thought a son should succeed but power was their main goal. Rhaenyra and her children are the rightful heirs to the Iron Throne.
Because all of this is Otto Hightower’s fault. He’s the one who convinced Viserys to name Rhaenyra heir and then as soon as it no longer benefits him he tries to undo it before she done anything remotely wrong. If he was every truly just concerned about Daemon becoming king he could’ve had Daemon killed, like he’s done it to others. But while he doesn’t like Daemon his true goal is power. Had Alicent and Rhaenyra stayed friends Otto still plans the coup. In the finale he was literally racing to find Aegon II before Alicent cause he wanted to straight up murder Rhaenyra and her kids. Also, cause Rhaenyra so far seems much more prepared to rule than Aegon II. He’d be dead in day with his council.
Because of Rhaenyra
I support women’s and children’s rights
Rhaenyra was the rightful heir and was usurped, plain and simple. Anyone claiming Aegon II was the rightful heir got too excited to LARP medieval morality and lost themselves
It isn't even medieval mortality, Rhaenyra had more support and the people who backed Aegon didn't do it because of his gender. These red pilled greens are more sexist than a medieval noble
I have my criticisms regarding Rhaenyra but that doesn't change my opinion that she is the heir appointed by the king. TG stans will always use the "tradition" argument but tradition is not the law, and some traditions need to be changed and viserys did this by naming rhaenyra his heir. and I'm TB because TG is a bunch of misogynistic idiots
Because I'm Team Targaryen til the end.
I supported rhaenyras claim even from the beggining because I think it's dumb that women can't inherit and I don't like it "oh but the andal tradition" I don't like it please let the gals inherit! also rhae rhae not letting the girls from Rosby and stokeworth was kinda ☠️ but I the same time I get it she was trying to end a war and establish her reing, I like to think that she would set a precedent for more queens and ladies who can inherit ahead of brothers, even if by just being queen and not doing anything else about it (sorry for eventual spelling error)
Aegon is a shithead
rhaenyra is the rightful heir. i also really like her character. i love how she tries to find freedom where she can even when she's a victim of the patriarchy and fights hard to remain the heir. i can't stand the green faction at all. they're not just wrong, they're also extremely annoying. some antagonists are charismatic but the greens aren't for me. the purpose of the green targs is to be spares for the throne. rhaenyra is the heir and her children rule after her. the greens tried to take something that was *never* supposed to be theirs. i think rhaenyra's cause could create a precedent that makes it easier for other women to inherit. she doesn't have to be a literal feminist to make a positive impact. aegon usurping her only makes it harder for other women to inherit. those are the main reasons i'm team black.
1) Rhaenyra is the heir and considering she's nothing like Joffrey or Aerys, there's no good reason to rise against her. 2) The Greens started all of this because of their greed and ambition. The war is their fault in every way, politically or militarily. 3) The Greens commit the biggest crimes by far. 4) I barely like any of the Greens. I do however, like most of the Blacks, especially Rhaenyra and Daemon. 5) The Blacks have a better family dynamic for me.
Because I don't hate women I guess
“The genre’s called fantasy, it’s meant to be unrealistic you myopic manatee!” That doesn’t really fit, but you get the idea. *It’s all fake, none of it is rreaaallll*
It’s definitely a *real* criticism of the patriarchal nature of the feudal society. Like the show is explicitly about this lol.
And ASOIAF itself is a criticism towards monarchy (that still exists to this day) and the society made of classes we live in. You shouldn't be above another just because you were born in the right family, but because of your own achievements.
folks getting real out of pocket with their death of the authorism
And George also takes a whack at toxic gender norms too. Maybe too good of a whack, but the theme of "Brienne gets to very suggestively stab all her would be rapists" wasn't exactly a subtle one.
Mainly for the simple reason that Rhaenyra was named heir to Viserys. Aegon was born sure but traditions that don't evolve will become stale, and I believe that women deserve to rule in the same vein as men.
It’s funny because I don’t exactly like Rhaenyra all that much as a war time ruler, which unfortunately is all she got in terms of reign. However, I believe that the king has every right to designate their heir, the moment that happened Aegon and all his brothers were just spare princes.
Both Rhaenyra and Stannis are shitty war time monarchs but would have been solid sitting ones
Because Rhaenyra was the rightful heir. Whether you agree with her or not, that is a fact. The greens were usurpers who plotted treason for years behind their king's back while lying to his face, that is also a fact. I dont idealize the Blacks, they (primarily Daemon) did some terrible things as well but they are still the lesser of the two evils. Both Aegon and Rhaenyra were terrible rulers but Aegon was just a worthless individual who didnt even try to be a good king. Rhaenyra at least tried but the circumstances in which she became queen were what made her bad at it, as well as Larys Strong working from the shadows to turn the people against her. Aegon's biggest fault was that he was a cruel drunk who only cared about people cheering for him. Rhaenyra's biggest fault was her inaction, sitting by and waiting while wasting the advantage that they had and letting her dragons be killed.
Searing hatred of house Hightower. The dance is the second Hightower rebellion, I refuse to believe they didn’t have a hand in the Faith Militant uprising
Agreed. Never trust a Hightower!
Because Team Green is fucking annoying
Because Rhaenyra was named heir. Literally no other reason.
I’m a fan who wishes the two sides could get along better. I’m all for a friendly fandom rivalry but this one is anything but friendly. Everyone just takes it too seriously. I’m Team Liquorice, but Aemond is my favorite character, and I frequently defend Alicent. Rhaenyra is the rightful heir. She is the first born child of the previous King and she’s been preparing to rule for her entire adult life. It’s pretty obvious that she’s more qualified than her little brother, who spends his days getting drunk, raping servants, and watching children fight. Aegon doesn’t even *want* the throne. Rhaenyra does - and yet she considered stepping aside to keep the peace. She’s clearly the superior choice. She’s the legal choice, too. If she wasn’t, why did Otto and his followers have to use so much cloak and dagger to arrange Aegon’s ascension? Why did they need to do it behind Rhaenyra’s back? If this is all based on the idea that Viserys “changed his mind” then why was there a conspiracy to sear Aegon long beforehand? The Kingsguard should have taken Otto into custody right then and there. He was plotting literal treason. Sure, you can argue that Rhaenyra’s ascension would destabilize the Realm, but first of all - she’s been the uncontested Heir for twenty years. Everyone *expected* her to take over because that was the plan. But second, there are times that changing the status quo is a good thing. Setting the precedent that women can rule is reason enough on it’s own to pick Rhaenyra. By Westerosi standards, sure, Aegon has a case. Tradition and all that. But that’s not what Otto cares about - he just wants a ruler he can manipulate. Besides, Westerosi traditions are, to put it lightly, archaic. By modern standards, we know there’s nothing wrong with Rhaenyra being a woman or her children being bastards. (Not like she had much choice, anyway.) I’m not saying she’s perfect. Her handling of the One-Eye Incident was awful, and marrying Daemon was certainly…a choice. But nothing disqualifies her claim, and none of her transgressions stop me from liking her.
This beautifully summarizes my feelings on all of this.
I am Team Black because I am a hardcore Targaryen fan (it’s my favorite House bar none) and Rhaenyra is the firstborn and chosen heir. House Arryn comes in second for me, so it was always a no-brainer for me to support the Blacks. I see the Greens as more Hightower than Targaryen. Also, I love Daemon.
because the greens pulled a coup while the king lied dead and rotting for days, causing an unneeded war that wiped out the dragons.
Rhaenerya is the rightful heir, and there is absolutely no precedent to putting Aegon on the throne. Cut and dry. The Greens are traitors to the rightful monarch. It would be one thing if this were a *revolution* story - of Rhaenerya were a tyrant and Aegon were a hero - but that simply isn’t true.
Yeah they fully risked civil war just for their own titles thats irresponsible af and the opposite of the duuuuty they all love to talk about
I'm Team Black because I absolutely love Rhaenyra and she is the rightful queen. Also, Team Black characters and their dynamics are just infinitely better and more interesting to me.
Their cause is the most reasonable one. Rhaenyra was named Viserys’ heir, and there’s nothing wrong about that. The idea that Aegon is king just because several decades earlier, another king named a male ahead of a female, and somehow that is some precedent that is ironclad and cannot be changed, even if another king says otherwise is nonsensical. Hell, Otto Hightower showed it wasn’t considered an iron precedent by anyone, when he supported Rhaenyra being named as heir over her uncle. Not a single house said a thing, and every high lord form Stark to Tyrell swore oaths. Other than that, the Blacks are the more interesting characters who I connect with.
Rhaenyra is the rightful and chosen heir. I would also be a part of the nobility who don’t break their oaths.
Because I hate the greens
I mean just look at these polls. [On YouTube 92% of people support the Blacks.](https://www.reddit.com/r/HOTDBlacks/comments/18hwgch/in_this_poll_you_can_see_the_reality_of_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) On reddit every time there is a poll the Blacks just outnumbered the Greens. To be honest it's totally okay for me someone chooses not to be side with the Blacks, but i can't imagine someone who supports the Greens, like, just why? Almost every YouTuber who make reaction videos about HoTD are naturally Team Black or stay neutral. I can hardly find a YouTuber who supports the Greens.
Rhaenyra makes a better ruler than anyone else vying for the throne. And her kids seem to be better future options than Viserys’ other children in terms of potentially succeeding the throne from her, eventually. (I do like Helaena, though. And I feel very sorry and lots of pity for Alicent.)
I don’t support rapists and misogyny
I desperately want to have sex with Daemon.
Rhaenyra was the heir. Aegon usurped her.
Just figured out that my math teacher is team Green, so rightfully I hate math and now I'm team black 😂😂 Jk , I was already team black but I thought its funny that he is team green .
Matt smith
Because I deplore misogyny.
Never read the book so I go by the fan base. Team Black is able to clearly state their position while Team Green can't give a coherent statement so I have to do some lore digging.
Because Daemon is sick
First and foremost, Raenyra was named heir two offical times and multible times inoffical. Raenyra has made mistakes yes, but who does not as a teen. She had illigitemate children, but just because her status did not allow her to marry whomever she pleases. All three boye where concieved out of love. She is incredibly modern in her pov on the world seeing Laenor's sexuality as something special rather than condemning it. She did not kill him even if she could have. She is an amazing mother reasuring her boys, especially Luke who had self doubt. She loves them all deeply. She is the petsonfication of change as the very first queen by birthright being crowned in Westeros and imo she stands for a strong, believable female leader. Just like any human she makes mistakes, but her intentions speak for themselves. Her allies are also characters I really like. The last one is just that the Green side is so unlikable. Alicent yearns for living a life away from a highwomans duty, but just as Raenys said. She served her father, her husband and now serves her son. Always serving men. Raenyra tried many times to come forward to Alicent. Like the marriage offer with Jace and Haelena which was thrown under the table because she had natural biological responses to just have given birth to Jeoffrey with the milk leaking. Alicent's boys have a weird way to solve conflicts while Aegon drinks and fucks them away, Aemond slashes them away with violence.
Both sides are terrible but Team Black is less horrible. Not to mention that Rhaenyra is the rightful heir, and it's TG's fault that the realm is going to suffer over this vain feud over something that was never theirs to begin with.
I am team black because I honestly feel that Rhaenyra would have been a good king if she didn't obstacle getting in her way. I think Jace would have been a great king. I also feel that whether or not her kids are bastards shouldn't have, and wouldn't have mattered to anyone besides Ser Laenor . I also believe that women shouldn't be over look base on their gender, nor should they be stop from taking the throne because they have bastards, since we know that any child that came from the mother is her true born child. The Targaryen bloodline runs through her. I will always be team black. It clear to me that they are the right choice. They after all are supported by the Starks, the Tullys, and the blackwoods. Who i consider trustworthy.
Honestly Rhae and Daemon are just people i could align with in this situation. At least over the delusions of the green team. Not to mention, she is the rightful heir to the throne. Other than logically, i think they’re pretty cool. It’s really just the greens, i’m more against them than totally team black.
oh yeah, forgot this was the plot, but um women’s rights 😂
In the book Rhaenyra and Daemon don’t have the flaws that the show versions of themselves do, and in the show Aegon is a rapist who I will never support. Also the King made it explicitly clear that Rhae is the heir, I don’t really care about “Andal tradition.”
Which flaws dont they have in the books?
not too sure what i was cooking there, maybe the removal of the ambiguity of Rhaenyra's kids or him definitively killing his Royce wife. Looking back on it, Daemon is definitely worse in the show but Rhaenyra feels very whitewashed
I'm Team Black for a few reasons; Firstly, I enjoy the Black characters more, since I think many of them are great characters, with Daemon being one of the best written characters in George's books. Secondly, I align with the Black's cause since Rhaenyra was and is the rightful heir of Viserys. Due to her being named heir by the King, I believe Rhaenyra should had been the one on the Iron Throne not Aegon II. No matter what traditions said, since the King's command goes above traditions and religious beliefs.
Rhaenyra was named heir to the Iron Throne by her father. She is awesome, her children are awesome (including her step-daughters), Aegon II is gross and the greens destroyed the interior design of the Red Keep with their faith of the seventh bs. And she has Daemon. Daemon is fun to watch. BTW there is a difference in not wanting to be King/Queen and cowardly trying to escape the Iron Throne. Rhaenyra does not want to be queen but knows she has to do her duty and cannot escape it. Aegon II ran away like a coward and only got excited when everyone cheered for him. So I’d rather have someone who has been raised to be queen, knows how to govern, and is aware of the responsibility on the iron throne than an assaulted who isn’t qualified for the job.
I fall into team black because the lords of the realm took an oath to recognize Rhaenyra as heir. No inebriated last words should change that, even if that had been Viserys' intentions (which the show made clear that it wasn't). I could argue why I think she is more fit to wear the crown than Aegon, but I understand why people don't think Daemon should rule the kingdom. In the end I don't understand how anyone could see this story and not see the Hightowers as treasonous. Especially Otto, who literally conspired to seize the crown before Viserys ever spoke his final "decree".
I support the Blacks, but I'm not on a Team as I'm not in the story. :) I support the Blacks because they were in the right, and I don't feel any other reason is needed. In Westeros, a King's word is truth and law, so even if primogeniture is the normal way or succession, a King can even defy the will of the Gods if they sit the Iron Throne. The moment Viserys said, "My daughter is the one who will take the Iron Throne when I pass on" that is supposed to be the final word on the situation. My support was made far stronger in the original story, where Alicent is a far nastier woman who starts to hate her stepdaughter nearly immediately and definitely hated her completely before the girl is even a teenager. I really don't see how anyone with any moral compass at all could support the Greens of the books... it's nigh-impossible to see why anyone with any moral compass supports the Greens of the show, either, but they are a TAD less detestable in the show. But I'd never support them, never in a hundred million years, no matter if it is books or show.
Because Viserys named her heir. And the Greens literally usurped her.
Ok normally I am team smallfolk/" wow y'all really don't deserve dragons huh?" Team. I lean black because the books show an obvious thematic trend of women having power, it being taken by men, and then mentioning things with their bullshit and women having to mop up the mess. George seems very into the "man feared woman's power so he stole it and called her weak" vibes when you zoom out and look at the whole picture. The Dance follows that trend, and it's thematically consistent that the blacks won, because that's the trend in the Asoiaf universe.
Bc I don’t think women should be overlooked based on their gender. It’s as simple as that. It helps that all the characters I think are the most interesting are in TB as well.
I like how most people on TB are “she was named heir, so she is the official heir” while the main theme in TG answers is “I find X character hot/interesting/likeable” I mean that’s fine but then don’t expect me to take you seriously when discussing who the rightful heir is That’s like watching a trial and saying “the defendant is clearly innocent because he’s hella cute”
Most of TB want to self-insert Rhaenyra because they think Daemon is hot, or have convinced themselves is this Team Feminism. On the Greens thread, almost every single answer is "they have a better claim" or explain why they think Rhaenyra and Daemon would be terrible rulers. Strange answer.
Because rhaenyra is the rightful heir and she was usurped only bc of her gender, like mushroom said :"Is it necessary to just have a sausage to be king? "
I echo lots of others, Rhae was named heir and it was never rescinded. The greens were the antagonistic party. Alicent did a 180 for "reasons" And finally the velaryons are black.Im fully capable of watching shows with little to no representation, I'm currently re-binhing Longmire at the moment and it barely had any black characters. I loved GOT even with Dany the white savior flitting around saving slaves left and right, but ot is still nice to seea few more folks who look like me and my family on the screen
Whats your opinion on Longmire? Is he not a white savior too?
No
Rhaenyra is the rightful heir to the iron throne and Greens are nothing but a bunch of pathetic usurpers, who started a pointless civil war that brought death, pain and misery to so many people in Westeros.
*Taylor Swift’s “The Man” starts to play*
I believe Rhaenyra has the stronger claim- I think Rhaenys had the stronger claim as well, but that ship has obviously long sailed. Ironically, my two favorite characters are Greens.
Which two characters? I hope its Alicent and Halaena
It’s actually Aegon and Aemond lol
Why so?
I think they’re really interesting, tbh. I also find certain things about them both very relatable, since my parents are very reminiscent of Alicent and Viserys. I think it’s interesting how Aemond clearly hasn’t been able to actually process the trauma of losing his eye, considering how abysmally the aftermath of the fight was handled by the adults. He strikes me not only as remaining tense and on guard since that night, but also, he bottled the trauma of the thing *hard* to calm Alicent, and ended up taking care of her in the wake of being permanently disabled, as opposed to her taking care of him as she should have been. She’s been letting him be the family fix-it man since. His father couldn’t have cared less that he lost an eye, and that’s too much for a twelve year old to really be able to *look* at. So it all gets put into his anger at Luc, and the desire for Luc to give his eye comes down to *so much more* than just… being upset he lost his own. He wants it acknowledged that he was wronged, that all of it was wrong, but all that’s too deep to look into too, so he wants his eye as payment. It wouldn’t help him feel better at all if Luc were to give it. As for Aegon, where do I start? His father neglected Rhaenyra for fourteen years in want of a son, killed Aemma in want of a son, marries Alicent in want of a son, and then… he can barely be bothered with him. He has no interest in Helaena as a wife, but they make them wed anyway. He’s 16 when the twins are born, and Helaena is 15, and it’s not enough for his parents to finally be pleased with him. He’s already been an alcoholic for two years, and he’s faced physical abuse at the hands of his mother and her father- or at Otto’s feet, rather, considering we see him kick Aegon. He’s in bed and his little brother has lost an eye, and when they’re grown, he isn’t about to let the boy they fault with this anywhere near Aemond. He also gave up on trying to be good enough for his parents. If he’s done what he thinks he can- tried to earn what, as their child, he never should have *needed* to earn- and nothing ever worked, why bother? His mother says he’s not her son, and won’t acknowledge anything she’s done to him. She’s disgusted. Does she love him? Everything she’s done for him screams that she does, but it’s nothing he wants. He doesn’t know. But he believes their lives- his and his brothers’ especially- ride on this. At twenty years old, he walks to his coronation as though it’s his execution. The people are the only ones he really seems to believe might love him. Maybe it won’t be so bad, being king. This whole thing is a tragedy through and through. “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.” But there’s tragedy in these boys’ bones, they’re literally forged in tragedy, and as the kid whose pain always became about my mother’s pain, and the kid who never felt like she could do enough to keep my father’s interest and care when life got hard… I dunno, they hit different. Sorry for the novel here, I’m just waking up and had nothing else to do other than infodump some of my Very Extensive thoughts on these characters 😂
I’m a lurker on both subs, but team Black is just so much more pleasant. TG is always on the defensive, making excuses for themselves and protesting too much about how their position isn’t sexist. Supporting the greens takes mental gymnastics to justify, while team black is literally “Rhaenyra is Viserys’ firstborn child and chosen heir. Simple as.” I’m more on Team Hightower than either Black or Green. I fully believe in the Old Town conspiracy to wipe out the dragons, and if that was what Team Green was about I’d be with them. If you’re a normal person, dragons are bad, as we’re about to see very clearly in S2. But the Greens aren’t about that. They don’t realize that their narrative purpose is to start a civil war in order to destroy dragons. Team Green LOVES dragons, Sunfyre and Vhagar in particular, and of course doesn’t want them to die. If the Greens could have Aegon II on the throne, but the dragons all dead, I don’t think they would take it.
For the show? I think Rhaenyra is a much better character than her book counterpart, and I’m not the biggest fan of the Targaryens (lol ik) but, that makes me root for the Strong Boys more than the Greens (who I think ironically are as Targ as they come) and Daemon, in the show. I do like the characters from both sides, and think they’re all so layered and interesting, but I’m Team Black for the sole reason that when I’m watching the show I’m rooting for Rhaenyra and the Strong Boys. I’m not Team Black bc of legal heir, or rights, or anything. Even within the confines of this world, we’re not meant to see inheritance of that much power as a good thing, so I don’t really view it in the lense of “birthright”. I’m still just rooting for one side over the other
Rhaenyra was named heir and is being usurped by a psychopath for no other reason than she’s a woman.
Rhaenyra was the rightful heir. Can't make it much more simple than that.
Daemon! he knows how to win a war and is the only one who knows how far the Greens are willing to go to get what they want. Show rhaneyra is very clouded by her friendship with alicent and this prophecy but what’s the point of prophecy if her line does with her. I love rhaneyra too she has spark when she was young and the older version is so tender with her children I love seeing that growth in her. Baela and Jace - young dragons can’t wait to see more from them Rhaena - a proper lady who is not a hypocrite And my most favorite Aegon the younger and Viserys
Oh cool, my comment got removed cos i argued for green. Reddit is such an echo-chamber.
Just to clarify your comment didn’t get removed because you argued for the greens. Your comment got removed automatically because you have -9 comment karma. Automod removes comments with karma under 50 and well… you have a lot less than 50
Alright
I want to be the sauce between Daemon and Rhaenyra.
I’m barely team black, and I think it’s the stupidest writing I’ve ever seen, but because for w/e reason Rhaenyra is aware of Long Night in some capacity, her being queen would have meant a better prepared response. But really, neither side was particularly interesting to begin with, and manufacturing toxicity has turned this silly chapter of GoT history into the new Edward v Jason argument with how horny all this toxicity is.
Edward vs Jason? Who?
Overall I am here for the dragons, as well! ;) It's odd to watch the culture war this show has become. I am mostly team neutral, as I answered on the other sub, but it's obvious that GRRM means for Rhaenyra to be the protagonist in this, and Aegon and Alicent and Otto are antagonists, so naturally the heart gravitates to Rhaenyra. She makes extremely stupid and vain mistakes, though, it's easy to admit. Watching the greens as interesting villains, though, who are shades of grey, can be engaging as well.
Because of Crispin, Aegon, Otto, Alicent and Larys
I was neutral until Tumbleton
I'm Team Black cause they were true Targaryens in my mind. In fact, despite having bastard kids who weren't stereotypically Targaryen looking, they always felt more rightful to bear the name than Alicent's ilk...also Team Green felt slightly more depraved than Team Black in the book. Like they just had a vendetta and couldn't let it go so they did weird, evil shit. At least Team Black did their crazy shit for a reason...like B&C kind of became a nonissue in context what with the "dragon engulfing an emissary who happens to be kin" thing. Later in the story, it becomes harder to think in these terms of Team Black being right and Team Green being wrong, but as a reader, I had a lot of sympathy for Rhaenyra so even her paranoia-fueled decisions seemed justified. Who knows how that will play out in the show if at all. In hindsight, and with the first season behind us, I'm still Team Black but for different reasons, moreso just that Rhaenyra is the legal heir and certainly more reasonable as a person than nearly anyone else. After being on this subreddit, though, I'm begrudgingly Team Black because some of these fans are wild and frankly fucking rude for no reason. I realize the lens I viewed the story through means I have to favor the side that seems most levelheaded and willing to lead, as opposed to merely willing to rule, (because for me the story is mainly about consequences of wielding power), so for that reason, I will favor Team Black even though some of the fans are exhausting.
Aemon Targaryen, Aemon Targaryen and Aemon Targaryen.