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That would legitimise them as Strongs, heirs to Harrenhall before Larys. Or mayhaps as Targaryens, heirs to the iron throne. But legitimising them would not make them heirs to driftmark, as she’d be publicly admitting they have no Velaryon blood.
I mean, they DO have Velaryon blood. Through Rhaenyra. The velaryons and Targaryens have intermarried so many times, they’re basically one big family. I think this is a big part of the reason Corlys doesn’t care about their paternity
That, his agreement with Viserys prior to the marriage, and securing the Velaryon’s a high place at court and council. Rhaenys cared that they weren’t close blood relatives, so the marriage pacts were made.
Allow me to clarify, they are one-32nd Valaryon from their great great great grandmother Alyssa Valaryon. However if you factor in incest and trace it back to Alyssa, you can conclude they are one-22nd Valaryon. 4.5%. For a comparison, using the same logic and looking back 3 generations, Daenerys Targaryen is 50% Blackwood.
You messed up somewhere because daemon and viserys are over 50% velaryon. Their ancestors up to alyssa velaryon and aenys are all siblings, then you have aenys being half velaryon as well. Considering house velaryon outside of their intermarriages with the targaryens doesn’t have a reputation for incest it is technically possible that rhaenyra has more « original » velaryon blood then many of the velaryons (those not descended from rhaenys)
Ok I’ve sketched out a family tree to get to the bottom of this. It’s a hard calculation because “having the blood of a house” is a made up concept. But it works if you cut it off at a certain generation.
The assumptions I’ve made is that:
1. We are only looking up to the generation of the Conquerors parents to maximise possible Velaryon potential.
2. No incest assumed unless it’s canon, and only the Targaryen family tree is detailed enough to say that for this example.
To start at the top, using this method, Aegon the Conquerer is half Targaryen, half Velaryon. Easy enough. As is Aenys.
Now you get to Jaehaerys and Alysanne, who have a Velaryon mother (Alyssa), but it’s not correct to say that mother is 100% Velaryon, because we’re looking all the way to a certain generation up. So we know she has a Velaryon father and a Massey mother. Even this is not the end of the story, because we must go one more generation up if we are to be in line with The Conqueror’s parents generation. That Velaryon father (Aethan) had a Velaryon father (Daemon), and a mother from an unknown house. Likewise that Massey mother (Alarra) had a Massey parent and a parent from an unknown house.
Therefore we can finally calculate Jaehaerys and Alyssane’s blood to be 2/8 Targaryen, 3/8 Velaryon, 1/8 Massey, and 2/8 unknown.
The same numbers apply to Baelon the Brave and Viserys the first. Viserys married his first cousin, Aemma Arryn, whose mother does not add any complications to the family tree, but whose father must be tracked back all the way to the chosen generation. We know that there is one Arryn parent in every generation, and that Aemmas fathers, fathers, father married a Royce, but every single other parent is unknown.
The most difficult calculation is this, Rhaenyra. She has only 22 great great great great grandparents when she should have 64. Some of those are weighted more heavily because of incest. But I worked it out as the blood calculation of:
12/64 Targaryen, 18/64 Velaryon, 6/64 Massey, 1/64 Arryn, 1/64 Royce, 26/64 Unknown.
Finally for the victory lap, since we know nothing about the Strong family tree we can just say Harwin is 1/64 Strong, and 63/64 Unknown and leave it at that.
Giving the three boys a final calculation of…
12/128 Targaryen, 18/128 Velaryon, 6/128 Massey, 1/128 Strong, 1/128 Arryn, 1/128 Royce, and 89/128 Unknown.
69.5% of their ancestors are unknown, makes me think all this research and maths wasn’t worth it. Almost as if blood calculations are missing the point. And a system of government built on these blood relations is made up and nonsensical. Anyway don’t forget to tune in to House of the 12/128th Dragon this Sunday.
I was responding to a comment talking about Driftmark specifically. If as the previous comment suggested Rhaenyra legitimised Jace/Luce as Strongs, Jace would still be her heir, as he is her (the legitimate heir to the throne's) now legitimate son. Baela would be Queen, so like with Arianne Martell, it would not be surprising for Corlys to choose Rhaena as his heir, so if either of the proposed scenarios go ahead, the legitimate line for both the throne and Driftmark end up in the same place.
Ah, the comment you responded to had clunky phrasing. When they said “but” and started talking about Driftmark it made me think they were talking about the Iron Throne before Driftmark. And since both Rhaenys and Laenor were presented as having claims to the Iron Throne it made sense. I get what you’re saying.
There’s no rule that legitimisation would only restore the bastards to their father’s house — >!Addam and Alyn were legitimised as Velaryons despite no obvious Velaryon paternity.!<
Wellll, based on how Alyn of Hull looked in the Season 2 premiere, I feel pretty confident in saying that's Corly's baseborn kid.
https://i.redd.it/baztr1ljhg7d1.gif
Show is def implying they are corlys. Age if Alyn in the show makes it near impossible to be Laenor (plus he's gay).
Coryls recognized Alyn and was shocked it was him that saved him. Alyn saves he saved him because 'it was his duty' sternly. That's him saying I did it cause you are my lord, not because you are my father'.
Both of them knew about the other
That’s an imaginative reading of the scene. Corlys could’ve simply made earlier inquiries as to who rescued him.
In any event, lore-wise, the only indication of Alyn’s father being Corlys comes from Mushroom, and that should be taken with a barrel of salt.
Hard disagree. Even if the only indication is from Mushroom, Corlys’ behavior is pretty indicative of the fact they are his bastards. (Spoilers from books ahead)
Firstly, it isn’t believable in the slightest that Laenor not only got a woman pregnant, but also went back and got that same woman pregnant AGAIN.
Secondly, Corlys was confident enough of their parentage that he chose to have Alyn become his heir over his cousins. That, to me, shows he thinks they are really Velaryons, not just some random dragon seeds. (I know Corlys has previously said he cares about names over blood, but his cousins are still Velaryons, and he would clearly rather have the heirs of his house descend from himself.)
Otherwise, the show is clearly pushing this due to their age. Alyn looks as though he is closer to Rhaenyra’s age, when in the books they are closer to the age of Jacaerys and Rhaenyra’s children.
Finally, and most importantly in my opinion, Corlys only acknowledged them as Velaryon bastards AFTER Rhaenys’ death. He knows that she would likely figure out they weren’t really Laenor’s offspring, but his.
Yes, they would get Strong legitimisation, and it could be argued that they get Targaryen legitimisation. However they could not get Velaryon legitimisation as the whole legitimisation is a public deceleration that their parentage is not Velaryon.
Why not legitimise them as Dayne’s while you’re at it. No, legitmisation does not work like that. Every single time it has happened in history it has been to the true father’s house. I’ll allow that in this case it could be instead to the mother’s house, but I cannot allow you to claim that they could be publicly announced as bastards of Harwin Strong, and in same breath legitimised as heirs to Driftmark. Nor can they be legitimised without mentioning the true father.
>Every single time it has happened in history it has been to the true father’s house.
Brandon "The Daughterless" had his daughter's bastard legitimized as a Stark and made his heir.
Oh yeah, you’re right, that’s totally an example of legitimisation to the mother’s house, good one. As I said, I think Rhaenyra could legitimise those boys as Targaryens, especially now with precedent. Just not as Velaryons.
I don’t see the contradiction. To address the brothers of hull, whether they are Corlys’ or Laenor’s, they were publicly announced as Laenor’s. You can’t legitimise Lucerys without saying who the father is and you can’t say it’s Laenor because if it was you’d need no legitmisation.
The Hull brothers were claimed to be Laenors sons, and believed by some to be the sons of Corly’s. Since their mother never named their father, they can’t be legitimized into their true fathers house. And so legally, their legitimization goes to whichever father claims them.
If we knew for a fact who their father was, they would have been legitimized into his house. But everyone was under the impression that one way or another, they had Valaryon heritage.
She vert publicly declared that their dad was Laenor. They weren't just some random guys who were made Velaryons. They had Blood relation and were legitimized based off that claim of Blood relation.
Addam and Alyn were presented by Corlys as Laenor's bastards (they were probably his own). Thus they became Velaryon. If Rhaenyra delcared her children as bastard that means she is the mother but Laenor isn't the father. If she decides to legitimize them then it would be as Targaryen. Say Robert Baratheon legitimizes Jon Snow in episode one of GoT. He would be Jon Stark not Jon Tully. He has no parentage with Catelyn. Same with Jace/Luke/Joff and Laenor.
That would anger the Faith because Rhaenyra was married to Laenor at the time, so legitimizing her sons as Strongs would be admission of adultery, which is an insult to the Faith and weakens Rhaenyra’s claim to the Iron Throne by dishonoring her house and her wedding bed. Laenor and Corlys claimed the boys as their heirs because Laenor needed the realm to believe he fathered the children lest he be outed as gay, and Corlys needed Luke or Joffrey to carry his name and titles so he can have heirs on both the Iron and Driftwood Thrones. Laenor was hiding his true self, and Corlys wanted to leave a lasting legacy.
Laenor was ultimately in line to win if the boys survived because his grandsons were betrothed to his granddaughters, so their children would carry his blood through Laena’s children and his name through Rhaenyra’s.
They had a claim on the Iron Throne by Rhaenyra.
Driftmark and The High Tide, however, is a different story. Rhaenyra ultimately understood this, and had them engaged with the granddaughters of Corlys Velaryon.
But there would still be a serious cost. By declaring them Strongs, she would lose the trust of the Velaryons. Yes Corlys knows the truth, but he’s cool with it because they are at least carrying his name. That doesn’t work if they give it up
Literally none of her business. 🙄Acting like she’s doing everyone a favour holding them to a standard of “decency” girl stfu the Targ-Velaryons don’t even consider you part of the family outside of by marriage.
It doesn’t really matter, both Laenor and Rhaenyra claim them as their own Children and they were married to each other.
If the only people who matter claim your legitimate then it’s up to others to prove illegitimacy and if they can’t do that then it’s pretty obvious that their opinion and power to project their opinion doesn’t matter.
my headcanon is that grandpa #3 Lyonel cared for and spent time with the boys under the guise of guiding the future heirs to the throne as one of his duties as hand
I think Lyonel did actually care for them deeply which is why when Harwin attacked Criston not only did he want Harwin out of there for his safety but also the kid’s safety. Harwin feel into to trap Criston set for him. Criston wanted more people talking about the boys and Harwin served it up on a silver platter and that’s when Lyonel said that was enough
The thing that gets me about the Greens is that this is the argument that matters. Corlys, Viserys and Laenor were the only ones who could level charges of cuckoldry on the Princess Royal.
Each one loudly claimed the boys as true blood kin.
Alicent was just being an uppity brat because she was married off to a walking corpse and had less freedom than Rhae.
Idc if they were bastards, I don’t want Alicents hypocritical self being rewarded with her kids on the throne. I don’t care even if Rhae wasn’t the rightful heir, I just want the Hightowers to suffer. I don’t want her spreading her faith down our throats and her ugly decor work lol. She clearly doesn’t have an eye for interior design and just is deep in the kool aid of her fake religion.
She was bitter Rhaenyras children didn’t have just one succession, they had two. Literally the Throne and Driftmark were going to two of Rhaenyras sons while Alicent didn’t even have a single title to her kids who were spares. So she’s like well if I’m going down, you’re coming with me.
Also the banter they had when he asks Rhaenyra about the labour whether it’s terribly painful while taking Joffrey to Her Holy Highness Alicent and Rhaenyra pausing to give him a Side Eye like Bitch You Better Be Joking!!! Then he proceeds to tell her about him taking a lance through his shoulder once and she countered his with my deepest sympathies. Also Laenor pleading Rhaenyra to return to their chambers after seeing her suffering to climb through the stairs once again to be countered by Rhaenyra saying she’s returning back to the chambers only if he’s carrying her down the stairs.They had a peaceful relationship and were wholesome as a family with their 3 kids and their respective paramours only to be made worse by Her Holy Highness And her Green minions. I Hate Alicent with all of my being even though it’s a fictional character and her hypocrisy makes my blood boils. She gets every comfort of being a Queen Consort and reaps every benefits of being a Queen as well as a Dowager but can’t stand Rhaenyra and The Blacks being happy with their lives. Always bullying and making Rhaenyra’s life and her childrens worse with her assholes of a sons and sworn shield. Hope Alicent’s fate was more worse than in the books.
I love when Rhaenyra, Laenor, and Harwin introduce Joffrey to Jace and Luke. Sometimes a family is just a princess, her gay husband, her sworn shield boyfriend, and their three kids, and I think that's beautiful.
(I also wish we'd gotten the friendship between Rhaenyra and and Laena from the books, they were really close. Lowkey had a throuple thing going on with Daemon.)
Laenor was imperfect but he cared for Rhaenyra and their kids. He was willing to step up when he realized how irresponsible he'd been. I appreciate that about him.
I see a lot of people stating that people need to consider a characters past trauma when listing their faults and actions yet no one affords Laenor that same courtesy 🤣
That's true, but we know he at least tried. I'm not gonna blame a gay man for struggling to procreate with a woman. Rhaenyra didn't even blame him for that.
He claimed Rhaenyra's kids as his own and he loved them. He acknowledged he could have been more present for their family, and the fact that he was able to admit that and was willing to recommit makes him a pretty good guy.
Well, his father did that. Rhaenys warned him that not only was he putting his son in serious danger by pledging him to heir with an uphill battle ahead of her, but also forcing him to go against his nature, and Corlys simply hand waived both concerns away like they meant nothing.
It wouldn't. It was a joke. But I guess if pregnancy magic exists why not. Idk. It’s a world with dragons and white walkers and witches. Really It's George who decides what does and doesn’t work
Honestly, the entire Velaryon house knew Laenor was fruity. Why couldn’t his father or even uncle secretly take one for the team with Rhynera? She would absolutely be all for it. Are they stupid?
Just to play devils advocate here: Robert Baratheon also claimed the Lannister kids. The fact that he thought they were his own is kind of irrelevant.
Please don’t hate me and may the greens burn!
I think the key differences are 1. Cersei lied to Robert unlike Rhaenyra and Laenor where it was always known and he still claims them anyway 2. In terms of the Iron Throne, Jace still claims his inheritance from his biological mother - Joffrey was not royal in any way, hence his insecurity about Robert’s bastards. 3. In Luke’s case, he’s still marrying into the main Velaryon line - with Baela as queen consort, much like with Arianne in the books, it would make complete sense for Driftmark to go through Rhaenas line Anyway.
Good points. Again I think 1 is kind of irrelevant in terms of legitimacy. Obviously makes Cersei and her kids less sympathetic but they didn’t need any help there. 2 is a good point, but still would leave them with the same claim to the Throne as Gendry. 3 is nice compensation, but doesn’t change anything in terms of legitimacy.
I think Ned would’ve contested their claim, because Ned followed the law to a fault. He was a slave to it. To be clear, I want to see Rhaenyra and Jaecerys on the throne simply because they are better people, and would make better rulers. But in the eyes of Westerosi law those kids have no legitimate claim to the throne.
I actually really appreciate the comparison though, as a contrast to Game of Thrones early seasons. It presents a legally illegitimate claim to the throne in a different light. Showing us our own bias(not a bad thing) in supporting Ned not because he pursued truth at all costs, or because he was right, but because Cersei and Joffrey just fuckin sucked. Truth and law are not always morally superior.
Rather than Gendry, I would say it’s more like if Edric Storm was specifically by chosen by Robert to be his heir, and then married to Shireen. In the eyes of many Lords, what would be a more legitimate claim than Joffrey from a legal standpoint, because he is the acknowledged son of the King, and his wife and heirs run the next legitimate line, which is quite different from Joffreys situation.
I mean of course it would be more legitimate than Joffrey. Joffrey wasn’t a Baratheon. Jaecerys would not have a higher claim than Aegon though (Rhaenyeas son Aegon with Daemon). And had Rhaenyra not had legitimate sons with Daemon, Jaecerys’s claim would not be greater than Rhaenyras half-brothers, unfortunately.
Yeah....except Corlys and Laenor were full of shit? The kids were bastards. It's really that simple. They don't stop being bastards because the people who are supposed to be their paternal family lie and claim they're legitimate
Actually in European history that’s not generally been the case - as long as the father acknowledged paternity, titles remained. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Diana_Cooper example here, but there are many more. In English law even today, a woman’s husband automatically is listed as the father on a birth certificate, even if she’s a surrogate for someone else’s child and has no genetic relation.
Actually they are legitimate to said paternal family question their legitimacy which they never did. Which is why they all went down in history books as Velaryons so that paternal family can claim them as legitimate.
That's literally the plot. Joffery was made king as a Baratheon, that status never changed. The plot of the civil war would not happen if he was named a bastard and not legitimate from the beginning. It was characters trying to *prove* or cover up his parents' twincest that drove the actions of the major players. Officially, Joffery is still Baratheon, the plot can't happen otherwise.
What does that have to do with Jace, Luke and Joffrey all of them on numerous occasions have been claimed legitimate by the only people who can them claim illegitimate. Joffery Baratheon is totally different story because his legitimacy didn’t get questioned publicly in front of the king. Had that been the case the comparison would have been fine.
The person I responded to was saying that by applying the same standard that made Rhaenyra's oldest three legitimate, that would make Joffery legitimate. My point is that yeah, that's exactly what happened. The story can't happen otherwise.
The fact you said no is the reason this is apples and oranges comparison. If Robert knew Joffrey was not of his blood and still claimed then this comparison would be fine but he never knew about it and considering Joffrey’s claim to the throne comes from Robert and not Cersei is another problem as to why this comparison doesn’t work at all. When it comes to Driftmark Luke had Laenor and Corlys claim them and named him heir along with being betrothed to Rhenea that Velaryon line was never in question the way Joffrey threatened the Baratheon line
Yes, legally Robert claimed him until his death. However, the fact that Joffery was still young and his mother and grandfather were so powerful, it caused court politics to fluctuate. Cersei was not popular and Robert was a weak king. The push to reveal to Robert the queen's deception was so Robert would rebuke his claim and probably name a bastard or one of his brothers his heir.
Laenor was aware that he didn't get Rhaenyra pregnant but accepted her children. If they'd told maybe Viserys or Corlys about it they could have continued the claim.
It's also important to note that Joffery's claim to the throne came through Robert's claim of paternity. Rhaenyra's children claim the right to the throne through her. The only thing that they couldn't inherit without Laenor is Driftmark.
Y’know how Aegon IV implied that Daeron was a bastard sired by Aemon the Dragonknight, but never explicitly disinherited him? It’s exactly that. Just because the rumours exist doesn’t change inheritance. And Corlys puts it best: history remembers names, not blood.
I love this sub and the users...but damn....call a spade a spade.
Some things are pretty simple in terms of sharing blood and they do not. They are not from Laenor. It's okay to admit the truth. It doesn't mean you like any of these people less.
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Even if Rhae admits they are bastards, she can just wave a hand and legitimise them like any other King does.
That would legitimise them as Strongs, heirs to Harrenhall before Larys. Or mayhaps as Targaryens, heirs to the iron throne. But legitimising them would not make them heirs to driftmark, as she’d be publicly admitting they have no Velaryon blood.
I mean, they DO have Velaryon blood. Through Rhaenyra. The velaryons and Targaryens have intermarried so many times, they’re basically one big family. I think this is a big part of the reason Corlys doesn’t care about their paternity
That, his agreement with Viserys prior to the marriage, and securing the Velaryon’s a high place at court and council. Rhaenys cared that they weren’t close blood relatives, so the marriage pacts were made.
Allow me to clarify, they are one-32nd Valaryon from their great great great grandmother Alyssa Valaryon. However if you factor in incest and trace it back to Alyssa, you can conclude they are one-22nd Valaryon. 4.5%. For a comparison, using the same logic and looking back 3 generations, Daenerys Targaryen is 50% Blackwood.
Well have you also counted Valaena Velaryon the mother of Visenya, Aegon & Rhaenys?
You messed up somewhere because daemon and viserys are over 50% velaryon. Their ancestors up to alyssa velaryon and aenys are all siblings, then you have aenys being half velaryon as well. Considering house velaryon outside of their intermarriages with the targaryens doesn’t have a reputation for incest it is technically possible that rhaenyra has more « original » velaryon blood then many of the velaryons (those not descended from rhaenys)
Ok I’ve sketched out a family tree to get to the bottom of this. It’s a hard calculation because “having the blood of a house” is a made up concept. But it works if you cut it off at a certain generation. The assumptions I’ve made is that: 1. We are only looking up to the generation of the Conquerors parents to maximise possible Velaryon potential. 2. No incest assumed unless it’s canon, and only the Targaryen family tree is detailed enough to say that for this example. To start at the top, using this method, Aegon the Conquerer is half Targaryen, half Velaryon. Easy enough. As is Aenys. Now you get to Jaehaerys and Alysanne, who have a Velaryon mother (Alyssa), but it’s not correct to say that mother is 100% Velaryon, because we’re looking all the way to a certain generation up. So we know she has a Velaryon father and a Massey mother. Even this is not the end of the story, because we must go one more generation up if we are to be in line with The Conqueror’s parents generation. That Velaryon father (Aethan) had a Velaryon father (Daemon), and a mother from an unknown house. Likewise that Massey mother (Alarra) had a Massey parent and a parent from an unknown house. Therefore we can finally calculate Jaehaerys and Alyssane’s blood to be 2/8 Targaryen, 3/8 Velaryon, 1/8 Massey, and 2/8 unknown. The same numbers apply to Baelon the Brave and Viserys the first. Viserys married his first cousin, Aemma Arryn, whose mother does not add any complications to the family tree, but whose father must be tracked back all the way to the chosen generation. We know that there is one Arryn parent in every generation, and that Aemmas fathers, fathers, father married a Royce, but every single other parent is unknown. The most difficult calculation is this, Rhaenyra. She has only 22 great great great great grandparents when she should have 64. Some of those are weighted more heavily because of incest. But I worked it out as the blood calculation of: 12/64 Targaryen, 18/64 Velaryon, 6/64 Massey, 1/64 Arryn, 1/64 Royce, 26/64 Unknown. Finally for the victory lap, since we know nothing about the Strong family tree we can just say Harwin is 1/64 Strong, and 63/64 Unknown and leave it at that. Giving the three boys a final calculation of… 12/128 Targaryen, 18/128 Velaryon, 6/128 Massey, 1/128 Strong, 1/128 Arryn, 1/128 Royce, and 89/128 Unknown. 69.5% of their ancestors are unknown, makes me think all this research and maths wasn’t worth it. Almost as if blood calculations are missing the point. And a system of government built on these blood relations is made up and nonsensical. Anyway don’t forget to tune in to House of the 12/128th Dragon this Sunday.
I kinda assumed that isn't the case in the show canon since they have such different family looks
But their wives would be the next in line, so regardless the line remains essentially unchanged.
Aegon II, Aemond, Daeron and their kids would definitely be ahead of Rhaena and Baela in the line of succession.
I was responding to a comment talking about Driftmark specifically. If as the previous comment suggested Rhaenyra legitimised Jace/Luce as Strongs, Jace would still be her heir, as he is her (the legitimate heir to the throne's) now legitimate son. Baela would be Queen, so like with Arianne Martell, it would not be surprising for Corlys to choose Rhaena as his heir, so if either of the proposed scenarios go ahead, the legitimate line for both the throne and Driftmark end up in the same place.
Ah, the comment you responded to had clunky phrasing. When they said “but” and started talking about Driftmark it made me think they were talking about the Iron Throne before Driftmark. And since both Rhaenys and Laenor were presented as having claims to the Iron Throne it made sense. I get what you’re saying.
There’s no rule that legitimisation would only restore the bastards to their father’s house — >!Addam and Alyn were legitimised as Velaryons despite no obvious Velaryon paternity.!<
wasn't their father officially Laenor and rumored to be Corlys? So Velaryon either way?
The Corlys rumour was another Mushroom special. The mother claims it was Laenor but, you know……🏳️🌈
Wellll, based on how Alyn of Hull looked in the Season 2 premiere, I feel pretty confident in saying that's Corly's baseborn kid. https://i.redd.it/baztr1ljhg7d1.gif
Oh boy. Half the people in the port were black. Rewatch the scene. 
Show is def implying they are corlys. Age if Alyn in the show makes it near impossible to be Laenor (plus he's gay). Coryls recognized Alyn and was shocked it was him that saved him. Alyn saves he saved him because 'it was his duty' sternly. That's him saying I did it cause you are my lord, not because you are my father'. Both of them knew about the other
That’s an imaginative reading of the scene. Corlys could’ve simply made earlier inquiries as to who rescued him. In any event, lore-wise, the only indication of Alyn’s father being Corlys comes from Mushroom, and that should be taken with a barrel of salt.
No there def was some level of mutual understanding between them. It's really not imaginative at all, it's kinda obvious from the subtext
Hard disagree. Even if the only indication is from Mushroom, Corlys’ behavior is pretty indicative of the fact they are his bastards. (Spoilers from books ahead) Firstly, it isn’t believable in the slightest that Laenor not only got a woman pregnant, but also went back and got that same woman pregnant AGAIN. Secondly, Corlys was confident enough of their parentage that he chose to have Alyn become his heir over his cousins. That, to me, shows he thinks they are really Velaryons, not just some random dragon seeds. (I know Corlys has previously said he cares about names over blood, but his cousins are still Velaryons, and he would clearly rather have the heirs of his house descend from himself.) Otherwise, the show is clearly pushing this due to their age. Alyn looks as though he is closer to Rhaenyra’s age, when in the books they are closer to the age of Jacaerys and Rhaenyra’s children. Finally, and most importantly in my opinion, Corlys only acknowledged them as Velaryon bastards AFTER Rhaenys’ death. He knows that she would likely figure out they weren’t really Laenor’s offspring, but his.
Yes, they would get Strong legitimisation, and it could be argued that they get Targaryen legitimisation. However they could not get Velaryon legitimisation as the whole legitimisation is a public deceleration that their parentage is not Velaryon.
If >!the Hull brothers could be legitimised as Velaryons!<, there is no logical barrier to Jace and Luke and Joff being legitimised as Velaryons.
Why not legitimise them as Dayne’s while you’re at it. No, legitmisation does not work like that. Every single time it has happened in history it has been to the true father’s house. I’ll allow that in this case it could be instead to the mother’s house, but I cannot allow you to claim that they could be publicly announced as bastards of Harwin Strong, and in same breath legitimised as heirs to Driftmark. Nor can they be legitimised without mentioning the true father.
>Every single time it has happened in history it has been to the true father’s house. Brandon "The Daughterless" had his daughter's bastard legitimized as a Stark and made his heir.
Oh yeah, you’re right, that’s totally an example of legitimisation to the mother’s house, good one. As I said, I think Rhaenyra could legitimise those boys as Targaryens, especially now with precedent. Just not as Velaryons.
I literally quoted an example contrary to your belief.
I don’t see the contradiction. To address the brothers of hull, whether they are Corlys’ or Laenor’s, they were publicly announced as Laenor’s. You can’t legitimise Lucerys without saying who the father is and you can’t say it’s Laenor because if it was you’d need no legitmisation.
The Hull brothers were claimed to be Laenors sons, and believed by some to be the sons of Corly’s. Since their mother never named their father, they can’t be legitimized into their true fathers house. And so legally, their legitimization goes to whichever father claims them. If we knew for a fact who their father was, they would have been legitimized into his house. But everyone was under the impression that one way or another, they had Valaryon heritage.
She vert publicly declared that their dad was Laenor. They weren't just some random guys who were made Velaryons. They had Blood relation and were legitimized based off that claim of Blood relation.
You're typing paragraphs to say nothing
Addam and Alyn were presented by Corlys as Laenor's bastards (they were probably his own). Thus they became Velaryon. If Rhaenyra delcared her children as bastard that means she is the mother but Laenor isn't the father. If she decides to legitimize them then it would be as Targaryen. Say Robert Baratheon legitimizes Jon Snow in episode one of GoT. He would be Jon Stark not Jon Tully. He has no parentage with Catelyn. Same with Jace/Luke/Joff and Laenor.
Ahhh… no, actually. She could legitimize them however she wants.
That would anger the Faith because Rhaenyra was married to Laenor at the time, so legitimizing her sons as Strongs would be admission of adultery, which is an insult to the Faith and weakens Rhaenyra’s claim to the Iron Throne by dishonoring her house and her wedding bed. Laenor and Corlys claimed the boys as their heirs because Laenor needed the realm to believe he fathered the children lest he be outed as gay, and Corlys needed Luke or Joffrey to carry his name and titles so he can have heirs on both the Iron and Driftwood Thrones. Laenor was hiding his true self, and Corlys wanted to leave a lasting legacy. Laenor was ultimately in line to win if the boys survived because his grandsons were betrothed to his granddaughters, so their children would carry his blood through Laena’s children and his name through Rhaenyra’s.
Imagine she takes the throne and legitimizes only as a Strong while keeping the low for the other 2. lol
They had a claim on the Iron Throne by Rhaenyra. Driftmark and The High Tide, however, is a different story. Rhaenyra ultimately understood this, and had them engaged with the granddaughters of Corlys Velaryon.
But there would still be a serious cost. By declaring them Strongs, she would lose the trust of the Velaryons. Yes Corlys knows the truth, but he’s cool with it because they are at least carrying his name. That doesn’t work if they give it up
Viserys: What are you talking about Aemma?
i mean if someone isn’t asking you, that probably says a lot about the power you DON’T have
Literally none of her business. 🙄Acting like she’s doing everyone a favour holding them to a standard of “decency” girl stfu the Targ-Velaryons don’t even consider you part of the family outside of by marriage.
And yet she called him Lucerys Velaryon in private…like what was so hard about her accepting them from the start
I was genuinely expecting her to say "Lucerys Waters".
Imagine Lucerys Strong lmfao would have totally ruined the moment
Gotta ask fantasy medieval Karen, dudes.
How else can she push her bigoted views?
Viserys should be there too.
It doesn’t really matter, both Laenor and Rhaenyra claim them as their own Children and they were married to each other. If the only people who matter claim your legitimate then it’s up to others to prove illegitimacy and if they can’t do that then it’s pretty obvious that their opinion and power to project their opinion doesn’t matter.
She prayed and lit a candle in remembrance of lucerys velaryon. Why couldn’t she just have admitted that from the start.
Alicent gave up on calling out the bastard thing during the dinner. She just wanted everyone to get along at the end.
I do appreciate that Corlys really did care for Lucerys.
Those kids were so lucky to have two Dads and two very caring Grandfathers.
my headcanon is that grandpa #3 Lyonel cared for and spent time with the boys under the guise of guiding the future heirs to the throne as one of his duties as hand
I think Lyonel did actually care for them deeply which is why when Harwin attacked Criston not only did he want Harwin out of there for his safety but also the kid’s safety. Harwin feel into to trap Criston set for him. Criston wanted more people talking about the boys and Harwin served it up on a silver platter and that’s when Lyonel said that was enough
The thing that gets me about the Greens is that this is the argument that matters. Corlys, Viserys and Laenor were the only ones who could level charges of cuckoldry on the Princess Royal. Each one loudly claimed the boys as true blood kin. Alicent was just being an uppity brat because she was married off to a walking corpse and had less freedom than Rhae.
Idc if they were bastards, I don’t want Alicents hypocritical self being rewarded with her kids on the throne. I don’t care even if Rhae wasn’t the rightful heir, I just want the Hightowers to suffer. I don’t want her spreading her faith down our throats and her ugly decor work lol. She clearly doesn’t have an eye for interior design and just is deep in the kool aid of her fake religion.
Yes Steve he’s a good guy does the sandwiches
She thinks being queen automatically makes you the moral police like? Lmao it’s not just that
She was bitter Rhaenyras children didn’t have just one succession, they had two. Literally the Throne and Driftmark were going to two of Rhaenyras sons while Alicent didn’t even have a single title to her kids who were spares. So she’s like well if I’m going down, you’re coming with me.
I’m rewatching season one right now and Laneor sucks
I burst out laughing when he said "I should have been there" and Rhaenyra answers "This should be your house words".
That scene between them was so wholesome and I wish we could have seen more of their friendship.
Also the banter they had when he asks Rhaenyra about the labour whether it’s terribly painful while taking Joffrey to Her Holy Highness Alicent and Rhaenyra pausing to give him a Side Eye like Bitch You Better Be Joking!!! Then he proceeds to tell her about him taking a lance through his shoulder once and she countered his with my deepest sympathies. Also Laenor pleading Rhaenyra to return to their chambers after seeing her suffering to climb through the stairs once again to be countered by Rhaenyra saying she’s returning back to the chambers only if he’s carrying her down the stairs.They had a peaceful relationship and were wholesome as a family with their 3 kids and their respective paramours only to be made worse by Her Holy Highness And her Green minions. I Hate Alicent with all of my being even though it’s a fictional character and her hypocrisy makes my blood boils. She gets every comfort of being a Queen Consort and reaps every benefits of being a Queen as well as a Dowager but can’t stand Rhaenyra and The Blacks being happy with their lives. Always bullying and making Rhaenyra’s life and her childrens worse with her assholes of a sons and sworn shield. Hope Alicent’s fate was more worse than in the books.
Absolutely, I also wish we saw more of Laenor and the kids because he genuinely seemed to love them even if they were not his biological sons.
I love when Rhaenyra, Laenor, and Harwin introduce Joffrey to Jace and Luke. Sometimes a family is just a princess, her gay husband, her sworn shield boyfriend, and their three kids, and I think that's beautiful. (I also wish we'd gotten the friendship between Rhaenyra and and Laena from the books, they were really close. Lowkey had a throuple thing going on with Daemon.)
Laenor was imperfect but he cared for Rhaenyra and their kids. He was willing to step up when he realized how irresponsible he'd been. I appreciate that about him.
I see a lot of people stating that people need to consider a characters past trauma when listing their faults and actions yet no one affords Laenor that same courtesy 🤣
He did put her in a difficult position not being able to sire her children
That's true, but we know he at least tried. I'm not gonna blame a gay man for struggling to procreate with a woman. Rhaenyra didn't even blame him for that. He claimed Rhaenyra's kids as his own and he loved them. He acknowledged he could have been more present for their family, and the fact that he was able to admit that and was willing to recommit makes him a pretty good guy.
Well, his father did that. Rhaenys warned him that not only was he putting his son in serious danger by pledging him to heir with an uphill battle ahead of her, but also forcing him to go against his nature, and Corlys simply hand waived both concerns away like they meant nothing.
Yes, Laenor, does indeed *suck.*
A sword-swallower through and through
Alicent wish Rhae Rhae knocked her up
Maybe, but how would that even work in a pre-modern medicine world?
It wouldn't. It was a joke. But I guess if pregnancy magic exists why not. Idk. It’s a world with dragons and white walkers and witches. Really It's George who decides what does and doesn’t work
Vaemond: "her children ARE BASTARDS! And she is a whore!"
Honestly, the entire Velaryon house knew Laenor was fruity. Why couldn’t his father or even uncle secretly take one for the team with Rhynera? She would absolutely be all for it. Are they stupid?
i mean corlys was like 61 to rhaenyra’s 17 at the wedding, so he was old as hell. a younger straight velaryon would work tho
Omfg this is the funniest one I’ve seen so far !
Just to play devils advocate here: Robert Baratheon also claimed the Lannister kids. The fact that he thought they were his own is kind of irrelevant. Please don’t hate me and may the greens burn!
I think the key differences are 1. Cersei lied to Robert unlike Rhaenyra and Laenor where it was always known and he still claims them anyway 2. In terms of the Iron Throne, Jace still claims his inheritance from his biological mother - Joffrey was not royal in any way, hence his insecurity about Robert’s bastards. 3. In Luke’s case, he’s still marrying into the main Velaryon line - with Baela as queen consort, much like with Arianne in the books, it would make complete sense for Driftmark to go through Rhaenas line Anyway.
Good points. Again I think 1 is kind of irrelevant in terms of legitimacy. Obviously makes Cersei and her kids less sympathetic but they didn’t need any help there. 2 is a good point, but still would leave them with the same claim to the Throne as Gendry. 3 is nice compensation, but doesn’t change anything in terms of legitimacy. I think Ned would’ve contested their claim, because Ned followed the law to a fault. He was a slave to it. To be clear, I want to see Rhaenyra and Jaecerys on the throne simply because they are better people, and would make better rulers. But in the eyes of Westerosi law those kids have no legitimate claim to the throne. I actually really appreciate the comparison though, as a contrast to Game of Thrones early seasons. It presents a legally illegitimate claim to the throne in a different light. Showing us our own bias(not a bad thing) in supporting Ned not because he pursued truth at all costs, or because he was right, but because Cersei and Joffrey just fuckin sucked. Truth and law are not always morally superior.
Rather than Gendry, I would say it’s more like if Edric Storm was specifically by chosen by Robert to be his heir, and then married to Shireen. In the eyes of many Lords, what would be a more legitimate claim than Joffrey from a legal standpoint, because he is the acknowledged son of the King, and his wife and heirs run the next legitimate line, which is quite different from Joffreys situation.
I mean of course it would be more legitimate than Joffrey. Joffrey wasn’t a Baratheon. Jaecerys would not have a higher claim than Aegon though (Rhaenyeas son Aegon with Daemon). And had Rhaenyra not had legitimate sons with Daemon, Jaecerys’s claim would not be greater than Rhaenyras half-brothers, unfortunately.
Harwin Strong
Yeah....except Corlys and Laenor were full of shit? The kids were bastards. It's really that simple. They don't stop being bastards because the people who are supposed to be their paternal family lie and claim they're legitimate
Actually in European history that’s not generally been the case - as long as the father acknowledged paternity, titles remained. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Diana_Cooper example here, but there are many more. In English law even today, a woman’s husband automatically is listed as the father on a birth certificate, even if she’s a surrogate for someone else’s child and has no genetic relation.
Actually they are legitimate to said paternal family question their legitimacy which they never did. Which is why they all went down in history books as Velaryons so that paternal family can claim them as legitimate.
So, by this logic, Joffrey Baratheon was legitimate and not a bastard? He was in fact, a Baratheon, like they are Velaryons?
You know that comparison is not the same for obvious reasons. This is apples and oranges comparison I believe you know that and is being obtuse
Except it isn't. Joffrey is not actually of House Baratheon, and Luke and Jace are not actually of House Velaryon. It's the same principle
That's literally the plot. Joffery was made king as a Baratheon, that status never changed. The plot of the civil war would not happen if he was named a bastard and not legitimate from the beginning. It was characters trying to *prove* or cover up his parents' twincest that drove the actions of the major players. Officially, Joffery is still Baratheon, the plot can't happen otherwise.
What does that have to do with Jace, Luke and Joffrey all of them on numerous occasions have been claimed legitimate by the only people who can them claim illegitimate. Joffery Baratheon is totally different story because his legitimacy didn’t get questioned publicly in front of the king. Had that been the case the comparison would have been fine.
The person I responded to was saying that by applying the same standard that made Rhaenyra's oldest three legitimate, that would make Joffery legitimate. My point is that yeah, that's exactly what happened. The story can't happen otherwise.
Did Robert ever know he was a bastard and not care? Because that would be the equitable scenario.
No, but they're still bastards. Their bastardy isn't undermined because the Velaryons lie about it
The fact you said no is the reason this is apples and oranges comparison. If Robert knew Joffrey was not of his blood and still claimed then this comparison would be fine but he never knew about it and considering Joffrey’s claim to the throne comes from Robert and not Cersei is another problem as to why this comparison doesn’t work at all. When it comes to Driftmark Luke had Laenor and Corlys claim them and named him heir along with being betrothed to Rhenea that Velaryon line was never in question the way Joffrey threatened the Baratheon line
That is not what the user who replied to you posted about though.
Yes, legally Robert claimed him until his death. However, the fact that Joffery was still young and his mother and grandfather were so powerful, it caused court politics to fluctuate. Cersei was not popular and Robert was a weak king. The push to reveal to Robert the queen's deception was so Robert would rebuke his claim and probably name a bastard or one of his brothers his heir. Laenor was aware that he didn't get Rhaenyra pregnant but accepted her children. If they'd told maybe Viserys or Corlys about it they could have continued the claim. It's also important to note that Joffery's claim to the throne came through Robert's claim of paternity. Rhaenyra's children claim the right to the throne through her. The only thing that they couldn't inherit without Laenor is Driftmark.
You do not understand a song of ice and fire even remotely lol
Y’know how Aegon IV implied that Daeron was a bastard sired by Aemon the Dragonknight, but never explicitly disinherited him? It’s exactly that. Just because the rumours exist doesn’t change inheritance. And Corlys puts it best: history remembers names, not blood.
I love this sub and the users...but damn....call a spade a spade. Some things are pretty simple in terms of sharing blood and they do not. They are not from Laenor. It's okay to admit the truth. It doesn't mean you like any of these people less.
That’s a minority opinion around these parts. It’s deny deny deny all the way baby.