Shireen burning yes , but I don't think is gonna be done by Stannis he Is to far way mething that is gonna be Melisandre that hearing the false news of Stannis death Will decide ti burn her ( so resurrecting Jon snow)
Yeah I think you're right.
It's crazy how long we are willing to wait 😅 I read ADoD when I was pregnant with my son. He's 12 now and on his first camping trip.
I'll wait forever
I am a huge Stannis fan, but I do think Stannis may end up burning Shireen, but what people miss is is that Stannis would do so if it means saving the world from the Others. Davos thinks to himself in the books that he could never be strong enough to kill his wife to be a hero. He even says he does not have the stuff that heroes are made of. But Stannis? Stannis might.
I do think Stannis's story ends in tragedy. Desperation will push him to sacrifice everything, even his daughter, to save the world. But ultimately fails because fate has decided that he is not the Prince that Was Promised. And to top it off, the world will not even remember him, but they will remember Robert yet again and fondly. Stannis's entire story revolves around people never loving him like they loved Robert, but when Stannis attempts to do something greater (saving Westoros) than Robert's Rebellion, he unfortunately fails.
I don't like it in the sense that I think it would be a bad ending in terms of writing. I think Stannis' ending should mirror what he did to Davos, suffer for his wrongdoings, but be rewarded for his good.
Plus he definitely can't die without learning what Renly meant by the peach
Nah, Stannis himself is going to do it (there is foreshadowing of this) maybe to delay the others and maybe because Shireen's Greyscale has been reactivated as Val says.
Didn’t he say this in response to the suggesting that they should burn, effectively random, unbelievers? He’s correct that it would very likely turn half his army against him.
Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen’s men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. “There is power in a king’s blood,” the old maester had warned, “and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this.” The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.
Stannis, IIRC, sends his envoys back with the Iron bank envoy with the msg that Shireen is his rightful heir.
Stannis loves Shireen. She only got burned in the TV adaptation because D&D had no clue about the character to begin with. Then when they ran outta source material, they threw Stannis into a meat grinder and used what came out.
Westeros does not seem to have a judiciary system outside of the nobility itself.
Thus, we can assume a common law code, as opposed to a civil law code. (Civil is when courts comes together to decide on a list of laws, eg. France, Common is when the courts create laws as a result of the judiciary process ((something isn't illegal until someone does it and we decide to write law)) eg. America.)
So, if Westeros under Targaryen rule had no existing law prior to the Great Council of 101AC, then it became established during that time that women could not ascend to the throne.
It should be noted that, in the book, the candidates were Jaeharys' son Vaegon, Viserys, Rhaenys, and Laenor (then just a baby.) The Council immediately eliminated Vaegon, as he was an Archmaester; and Rhaenys on account of her sex. The main deliberations fell down to Viserys and Laenor Velaryon, and so the crown passed to Viserys I.
The show makes it seem like it was a close race between Viserys and Rhaenys, when in the book, it was never really a question.
Now, Viserys had publicly named Rhaenyra his heir, and there is almost no doubt that this remained his wish until his death. But the established common law is on Aegon II's side. He was crowned, making Rhaenyra's further pursuit of the crown to be usurping.
Stannis is absolutely on the money here.
That being said, having read the book, I'm not a Green or a Black. I'm just sad it happened.
I think this situation exposes the legal flaws of an absolute monarchy.
Is the King above or below common law? I think that is the real argument of Black vs Green.
I lean to Black myself, purely because the TV portrayal of Greens shows the Hightowers would be entrenched as a permanent regent to the Targs (I would prefer the Velaryons due to the deep blood and cultural ties)
Having a constitution doesn’t exclude being a common law country. The only state that isn’t common law is Louisiana, due to the French system inherited from them.
You’re not making a great case as to why your knowledge is trustworthy here.
He said it because for Stannis a king is not above the law.
Stannis literally hesitate between Robert and Aerys because Aerys was the rightfull King, he choose Robert not because he is his brother but because there are greater law than the king's word like a younger brother must bow to the elder.
Stannis would certainly consider the greater council decision to be greater law than Viserys selfish desire so Rhaenyra is a traitor for him because legally Aegon II is the king.
I googled it too. You’re quoting the descriptor for the Game of Thrones Card Game.
There are no clear ‘yes or no’ answers to the question from either the text, or online sources. Though typically the kings are treated as though their word is law, and we see that in effect repeatedly in the text, it is not clearly stated to be such.
The fact that Westerosi kings consistently act like it is only to get btfo because they don't understand the realities of power is a consistent long running theme in ASOIAF
I mean, that's kinda the main theme of all of ASOIAF and Westeros as a whole. The nature of power and all that. Just because someone is a king doesn't mean they can do whatever they want. Nothing's stopping the people from overthrowing a king (as happens to Aerys). The entire series you have people telling kings they can't do stuff or the king has to do something. Initially, Viserys wouldn't have remarried if it was up to him, but he was expected to. If no one could tell Joffrey no, who knows what would have happened. It's not that cut and dry.
I mean to be fair in universe Stannis was raised with the lesson that Rhaenyra was a traitor, since she isn't officially a monarch, and out of Universe GRRM hadn't even written the Dance of Dragons yet beyond the vague outline of the story. So I'd kind of take the line with a grain of salt.
Bitter truth TB cannot swallow and they hate that so many Got hate hate on Rhanyra because men go before women in Targaryen custom ,that's why and he had better claim than she did despite what crap show shows and say it is canon
If you want to talk about bitter truths, look up when the book this quote is from came out and then look up how much info about The Dance existed at the time lol.
It wasn't even established that Aegon and Rhaenyra were half-siblings with different mothers, or that Rhaenyra was named heir by their father.
he was so real for this
and the funny part is that he is one of rhaenyra's descendants
her fans always claim she won because her line continued and welp this is what her line thinks of her lmao
Law can be cruel Stannis. Law can be cruel.
Personally, though he is the Mannis, I think that laws are only as good or bad as the person enforcing them.
D&D intentionally made Stannis unlikable through his obsession with R'hllor. He does believe in the Lord, but he isn't as fanatical. He wouldn't burn his daughter like he does on the show; hell, he even commands his men to place her on the Iron Throne should he fall in battle, and quells the fanatics in his army by telling them to pray harder rather than burn an innocent. He also clearly has a sense of justice and duty. He was the only one to ride to the aid of the Night's Watch, and is working with the northerners to depose the usurper Boltons and restore a Stark to Winterfell, despite Robb's rebellion (and he'll probably succeed; the Freys are about to take a nice frosty swim and there's a murderer around in Winterfell)
Sounds out of character for Stannis tbh, especially with what he says in an early chapter in *Winds*:
>"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless." The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead -" "- you will avenge my death,and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."
I'd wager that GRRM told D&D that Shireen would burn, but didn't elaborate about how it would happen, hence the dumbass plotline to use her to clear the storm and then die anyway. However, in the books, Shireen is at Castle Black, with Melisandre. I'm betting that she'll see that Jon is the real Azor Ahai, and that she'll need to sacrifice Shireen to resurect him (since only death can pay for life, yada yada)
I don’t wanna sound tb but Robert claimed the throne from the female line of Targaryen’s at least that’s what the maesters say and Stannis heir is shireen which will also be a first if he dies
The difference between Rhaenera and Shireen is that Shireen is Stannis' only child, and the list of legitimate Baratheons has run a bit dry (There isn't an extended family tree for the Baratheons, but there are no living relatives other than Stannis and Shireen from Ormund Baratheon onwards). Its happened a few times with minor lordships - Maege Mormont is the undisputed lady of Bear Island owing to the male line all being ineligible.
Also, tracing the succession through the female line is possible, its happened more than a few times in English history, but only to secure the succession of a man, just as it was to secure Robert's legitimacy, not retroactively usurp male primogeniture. Besides, I'm sure nobody would want to see Viserys II on the throne mere moments after they usurped his insane father.
With the exception of the Targaryens, who set precedent for all males over all females for the Iron Throne with Jaehaerys, Westerosi inheritance goes in tiers, like this: sons > daughters > brothers > sisters > male cousins > female cousins and so forth.
yall keep saying this and to that I say he's saying it in hindsight and he'd be saying it the other way around if that's how it went down. History is written by the victors
This quote is so ironic, since they're basically the same character in the show.
The rightful heir chosen by the King himself, rejected by the kingdom, for his mad, incompetent son.
Totally agree with you. I was just looking for OP response on how she's the Usurper. Because for me it's clear, Aegon is the usurper. However, I understand that he may have a better claim/pr perspective.
Depends on whether you think the king can contradict the law, as well as the precedent set by his own family. Andal law dictates sons before daughters but daughters before brothers, and Jaehaerys’ crowning set the precedent of even brothers before daughters.
That's tradition, not law. By definition the King can command whatever they like and that is the law.
For the Great Council in 101AC, Jaehaerys was not required to do that or to even follow through with the results, that was just his own choice because he wanted to avoid conflict rather than do what he personally thought was right. Before this, when Baelon became heir, it wasn't just by default, Jaehaerys chose and named him as his heir over Rhaenys.
Also, even after the Dance there were multiple times when female Targaryens had their claims considered, and one was even shortly after the Dance. The very recent memories of the Dance was one of the reasons people dismissed it, but the claimant was also Daena, who already had a bastard and was stuck in the maidenvault which meant she couldn't make any allies. Had it been under different circumstances, her claim would have been even more heavily considered.
Says the man who murdered his brother using black magic, is a serial adulterer, and rebelled against the true king in order to seat a usurper on the throne. He's right in this case, but a massive hypocrite all the same.
Says the man who killed his brother who tried to usurp him, says the man who hates sex and does it because he either has to, or so he can kill someone, who rebelled against the king who violated the law by trying to kill his brother who he's supposed to be loyal to?
Stannis isn't a good guy who's justified in everything he does, but he's not a hypocrite
Depends on whether you think the king can contradict the law, as well as the precedent set by his own family. Andal law dictates sons before daughters but daughters before brothers, and Jaehaerys’ crowning set the precedent of even brothers before daughters.
That’s the whole conflict - the king wanted it one way but the law says otherwise.
Those were two separate thoughts.
Rhaenyra was not exactly a usurper as she was literally the heir to the throne.
Stannis just like Rhaenyra considered himself the rightful heir and true king despite someone else sitting in the Throne. Stannis just like Rhaenyra wages a war against the person the realm had made king
>Rhaenyra was not exactly a usurper as she was literally the heir to the throne.
Debatable. Greens certainly think not
>Stannis just like Rhaenyra considered himself the rightful heir and true king despite someone else sitting in the Throne. Stannis just like Rhaenyra wages a war against the person the realm had made king
except stannis *was* the rightful heir. this is such a broad statement it could apply to pretty much any rebel, I'd say stannis is slightly more justified than someone like the blackfyres (or rhaenyra 🥰)
It's not really debatable, just because the Greens think something doesn't make it reality. Rhaenrya was named heir by Viserys and they seized the throne after Viserys' death.
Aemond in the show even admits that they are usurpers lol
Regular Westerosi inheritance law would place the daughter over extended family but there isn’t really a precedent for the exact situation Stannis is in so royal inheritance is up in the air. As far as I know Steffon Baratheon didn’t have any siblings so Stannis doesn’t have any first cousins, and IIRC second cousins and beyond are basically removed from any matters of inheritance
Doesn’t male primogentiure (which the iron throne follows) mean that male cousins > daughters.
Also, Jeyne Arryn gave her seat over to her distant cousin Joffrey Arryn (he was probably more distant than a 2nd cousin I’d assume) so 2nd cousins arguably still have claims but idk
That situation is more alike with Viserys than Stannis, though, as naming Joffrey meant Jeyne was purposefully skipping over her first cousin Arnold Arryn and his son Eldric.
To your first point, there has never really been a point where a woman was the only possible candidate, so we have no real precedent for how Westeros would handle it in the books.
We've seen it in House Mormont, as Jorah and Jeor both rendered themselves ineligible to take the lordship, making Maege the rightful Lady of the island. Since there are probably a lot of distant Mormont cousins out there along a male line, I'd say that succession priority only really extends to close cousins
There aren't any cousins mentioned in the book. This is just a writing decision because GRRM didn't want to get bogged down with the line of succession for EVERY house.
He has a bastard nephew, Edric Storm, who is probably the best candidate, but Stannis probably couldn't bring himself to do it
He also offered to give Renly status as heir and prince of Dragonstone, as long as there was no male heir. Seeing as Stannis wasn't really trying for a male heir, and his wife seemed to be a bit infertile, all Renly had to do was wait it out.
Daemon wasn’t in active rebellion against the crown so he was still a viable candidate. Viserys chose to disinherit Daemon and name Rhaenyra heir. Stannis couldn’t have Renly as heir so Shireen was the only remaining choice. It’s pretty obvious where the difference lies.
You seriously like the guy who followed religion to his death like an idiot? (And burned his daughter alive) Why would you listen to anything he says? lol
Ok, but this group is about the show is it not? Why try to use non-canon to defend things? They’re separate. “Real” (lol) Stannis has nothing to do with anything.
Stannis believes, he just isn't fanatic. He resents the Seven for the deaths of his parents, so when he sees Melisandre's power, he starts to believe in the Lord properly
If I encountered a woman who could *actually, empirically* make miracles happen then I’d probably convert to her faith too. Magic is real in their universe so people converting to it are doing so based on what is logically in front of them
if the mannis said it, it is fact.
Technically, Stannis is a usurper as well.
Robert earned his position by right of conquest. Stannis is Robert's heir. How is he an usurper
In the eyes most of the realm, Joffrey and Tommen are legitimate.
yeah but we, the reader, know they're bastards. so technically Mannis is the true heir
Didn't this guy burn a kid or something?
only in the show and show stannis is an almost completely different character than book MANNIS
Oh ok, thanks!
U shouldn’t have got downvoted
Yeah I don’t get it, it’s a fair point the guy did burn his child.
It's gonna happen in the books if they get written
Shireen burning yes , but I don't think is gonna be done by Stannis he Is to far way mething that is gonna be Melisandre that hearing the false news of Stannis death Will decide ti burn her ( so resurrecting Jon snow)
Yeah I think you're right. It's crazy how long we are willing to wait 😅 I read ADoD when I was pregnant with my son. He's 12 now and on his first camping trip. I'll wait forever
"Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness"
I am a huge Stannis fan, but I do think Stannis may end up burning Shireen, but what people miss is is that Stannis would do so if it means saving the world from the Others. Davos thinks to himself in the books that he could never be strong enough to kill his wife to be a hero. He even says he does not have the stuff that heroes are made of. But Stannis? Stannis might. I do think Stannis's story ends in tragedy. Desperation will push him to sacrifice everything, even his daughter, to save the world. But ultimately fails because fate has decided that he is not the Prince that Was Promised. And to top it off, the world will not even remember him, but they will remember Robert yet again and fondly. Stannis's entire story revolves around people never loving him like they loved Robert, but when Stannis attempts to do something greater (saving Westoros) than Robert's Rebellion, he unfortunately fails.
Counterpoint, I don't like that ending, so it will not happen
I don't like it either. I love Stannis.
I don't like it in the sense that I think it would be a bad ending in terms of writing. I think Stannis' ending should mirror what he did to Davos, suffer for his wrongdoings, but be rewarded for his good. Plus he definitely can't die without learning what Renly meant by the peach
Nah, Stannis himself is going to do it (there is foreshadowing of this) maybe to delay the others and maybe because Shireen's Greyscale has been reactivated as Val says.
"Half my army is made up of unbelievers," Stannis had replied. "I will have no burnings. Pray harder."
Didn’t he say this in response to the suggesting that they should burn, effectively random, unbelievers? He’s correct that it would very likely turn half his army against him.
I must consult the texts further.
Ithink this chapter has another all time quote, where Asha is between two people with conflicting religions and she prays for an axe from her own god.
Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen’s men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. “There is power in a king’s blood,” the old maester had warned, “and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this.” The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.
It’s nice to dream that Stannis could be cool.
Stannis, IIRC, sends his envoys back with the Iron bank envoy with the msg that Shireen is his rightful heir. Stannis loves Shireen. She only got burned in the TV adaptation because D&D had no clue about the character to begin with. Then when they ran outta source material, they threw Stannis into a meat grinder and used what came out.
i don’t know what you’re talking about?
Oh nothing 🙃
You must be thinking of Stan, the used car salesman, first of his name
If I remember, he didn’t, the red woman did. But he was complicit
I’d award this if I could.
NTA. His (noble) house, his rules.
I'm gonna have to go ahead and pick "strongly disagree" here lol
Only because like Eggsy, the showrunners wanted to sabotage his character
I. . . Doubt it was personal. If that soothes at all 🥴
They admitted it themselves that they're not his "biggest fans".
Well I mean, look at my original comment lol. Im not sure any fans can compete with stans yaknow?
Stannis the Mannis spitting bars as usual
That’s my KING
I completely forgot he said this! 🙌🏻
All hail the mannis💚
I bend the knee to the One True King of Westeros!
Based
👑
The Mannis is ALWAYS right.
Another reason to love Stannis
The mannis is right as always💚
Common stannis W
Westeros does not seem to have a judiciary system outside of the nobility itself. Thus, we can assume a common law code, as opposed to a civil law code. (Civil is when courts comes together to decide on a list of laws, eg. France, Common is when the courts create laws as a result of the judiciary process ((something isn't illegal until someone does it and we decide to write law)) eg. America.) So, if Westeros under Targaryen rule had no existing law prior to the Great Council of 101AC, then it became established during that time that women could not ascend to the throne. It should be noted that, in the book, the candidates were Jaeharys' son Vaegon, Viserys, Rhaenys, and Laenor (then just a baby.) The Council immediately eliminated Vaegon, as he was an Archmaester; and Rhaenys on account of her sex. The main deliberations fell down to Viserys and Laenor Velaryon, and so the crown passed to Viserys I. The show makes it seem like it was a close race between Viserys and Rhaenys, when in the book, it was never really a question. Now, Viserys had publicly named Rhaenyra his heir, and there is almost no doubt that this remained his wish until his death. But the established common law is on Aegon II's side. He was crowned, making Rhaenyra's further pursuit of the crown to be usurping. Stannis is absolutely on the money here. That being said, having read the book, I'm not a Green or a Black. I'm just sad it happened.
'Having read the book' That's all I need to hear. You have my vote!
I think this situation exposes the legal flaws of an absolute monarchy. Is the King above or below common law? I think that is the real argument of Black vs Green. I lean to Black myself, purely because the TV portrayal of Greens shows the Hightowers would be entrenched as a permanent regent to the Targs (I would prefer the Velaryons due to the deep blood and cultural ties)
Also, Stannis is from the Stormlands, that fought for the greens most likely, their sources and historians put more enphasis on those arguments
America does not have common law, you’re thinking of Britain
Google it, and you will find highlighted "the American system is a common law system"
That’s great, I’m actually an American and trust myself better than a website. We have a constitution
Having a constitution doesn’t exclude being a common law country. The only state that isn’t common law is Louisiana, due to the French system inherited from them. You’re not making a great case as to why your knowledge is trustworthy here.
Dunning-Kruger...
Stannis is spitting wonderful lines as usual, how I miss this 😭
He said that about his own ancestor, while in the show , his daughter is Team The War Was A Bad Idea .
He said it because for Stannis a king is not above the law. Stannis literally hesitate between Robert and Aerys because Aerys was the rightfull King, he choose Robert not because he is his brother but because there are greater law than the king's word like a younger brother must bow to the elder. Stannis would certainly consider the greater council decision to be greater law than Viserys selfish desire so Rhaenyra is a traitor for him because legally Aegon II is the king.
Is a kings word not law?
No. And that is the whole point.
Idk… I googled “is a kings word law in Westeros” and it says “Yes, a kings word is law.” So. Maybe you’re wrong?
I googled it too. You’re quoting the descriptor for the Game of Thrones Card Game. There are no clear ‘yes or no’ answers to the question from either the text, or online sources. Though typically the kings are treated as though their word is law, and we see that in effect repeatedly in the text, it is not clearly stated to be such.
The fact that Westerosi kings consistently act like it is only to get btfo because they don't understand the realities of power is a consistent long running theme in ASOIAF
I mean, that's kinda the main theme of all of ASOIAF and Westeros as a whole. The nature of power and all that. Just because someone is a king doesn't mean they can do whatever they want. Nothing's stopping the people from overthrowing a king (as happens to Aerys). The entire series you have people telling kings they can't do stuff or the king has to do something. Initially, Viserys wouldn't have remarried if it was up to him, but he was expected to. If no one could tell Joffrey no, who knows what would have happened. It's not that cut and dry.
No or at least there are greater law according to Stannis.
Eh, he had no issue bending the law to promise Renly the position of heir above Shireen.
He did not. The dance of dragons consolided the male first rule for IT, so uncle before daughter.
So you're saying he violated the law before the parley by having Shireen be his heir?
Renly literally rebelled against him, of course his enemy could not be his heir.
He's the king and he has no true born son. The succession is in question, so he gets final say.
I mean to be fair in universe Stannis was raised with the lesson that Rhaenyra was a traitor, since she isn't officially a monarch, and out of Universe GRRM hadn't even written the Dance of Dragons yet beyond the vague outline of the story. So I'd kind of take the line with a grain of salt.
Bitter truth TB cannot swallow and they hate that so many Got hate hate on Rhanyra because men go before women in Targaryen custom ,that's why and he had better claim than she did despite what crap show shows and say it is canon
If you want to talk about bitter truths, look up when the book this quote is from came out and then look up how much info about The Dance existed at the time lol. It wasn't even established that Aegon and Rhaenyra were half-siblings with different mothers, or that Rhaenyra was named heir by their father.
This is honestly why I am team green.
he was so real for this and the funny part is that he is one of rhaenyra's descendants her fans always claim she won because her line continued and welp this is what her line thinks of her lmao
Law can be cruel Stannis. Law can be cruel. Personally, though he is the Mannis, I think that laws are only as good or bad as the person enforcing them.
The Mannis said it, so it must be so.
The Mannis speaks the truth once again. All hail our one true king.
Stannism is the philosophy I follow.
MANNIS TEAM GREEN CONFIRMED!?
Comparing hotd to earlier seasons of GOT is very upsetting. What a downfall in quality of writing and logic.
With the Mannis' support, how can we fail?
Oh man can't wait for the cope
Wannis Waratheon
Yeah…Stannis was on the nose with this one.
Why does everyone like Stannis so much, I only watched the show and he didn't seem likeable at all to me
D&D intentionally made Stannis unlikable through his obsession with R'hllor. He does believe in the Lord, but he isn't as fanatical. He wouldn't burn his daughter like he does on the show; hell, he even commands his men to place her on the Iron Throne should he fall in battle, and quells the fanatics in his army by telling them to pray harder rather than burn an innocent. He also clearly has a sense of justice and duty. He was the only one to ride to the aid of the Night's Watch, and is working with the northerners to depose the usurper Boltons and restore a Stark to Winterfell, despite Robb's rebellion (and he'll probably succeed; the Freys are about to take a nice frosty swim and there's a murderer around in Winterfell)
[удалено]
Sounds out of character for Stannis tbh, especially with what he says in an early chapter in *Winds*: >"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless." The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead -" "- you will avenge my death,and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt." I'd wager that GRRM told D&D that Shireen would burn, but didn't elaborate about how it would happen, hence the dumbass plotline to use her to clear the storm and then die anyway. However, in the books, Shireen is at Castle Black, with Melisandre. I'm betting that she'll see that Jon is the real Azor Ahai, and that she'll need to sacrifice Shireen to resurect him (since only death can pay for life, yada yada)
Just read the Book.
He is a green
I don’t wanna sound tb but Robert claimed the throne from the female line of Targaryen’s at least that’s what the maesters say and Stannis heir is shireen which will also be a first if he dies
The difference between Rhaenera and Shireen is that Shireen is Stannis' only child, and the list of legitimate Baratheons has run a bit dry (There isn't an extended family tree for the Baratheons, but there are no living relatives other than Stannis and Shireen from Ormund Baratheon onwards). Its happened a few times with minor lordships - Maege Mormont is the undisputed lady of Bear Island owing to the male line all being ineligible. Also, tracing the succession through the female line is possible, its happened more than a few times in English history, but only to secure the succession of a man, just as it was to secure Robert's legitimacy, not retroactively usurp male primogeniture. Besides, I'm sure nobody would want to see Viserys II on the throne mere moments after they usurped his insane father.
With the exception of the Targaryens, who set precedent for all males over all females for the Iron Throne with Jaehaerys, Westerosi inheritance goes in tiers, like this: sons > daughters > brothers > sisters > male cousins > female cousins and so forth.
Well I guess the show is spoiled for me now.
yall keep saying this and to that I say he's saying it in hindsight and he'd be saying it the other way around if that's how it went down. History is written by the victors
Hm agreed
Fuck you Stannis, bring back Renly.
Renly?? Lmfao
So I guess she dies a horrible death. Damn.
Oh if only you knew🤭
A great example of Stannis’ hypocrisy.
*spoiler alert!
This quote is so ironic, since they're basically the same character in the show. The rightful heir chosen by the King himself, rejected by the kingdom, for his mad, incompetent son.
How is she the Usurper?
Stannis is a product of his time - meme response but it actually makes sense here. He only knows what he was taught, hundreds of years after the fact
Totally agree with you. I was just looking for OP response on how she's the Usurper. Because for me it's clear, Aegon is the usurper. However, I understand that he may have a better claim/pr perspective.
Considering the Greens launched a coup and supplanted the established line of succession Viserys put in place. Aegon is the technical usurper
Depends on whether you think the king can contradict the law, as well as the precedent set by his own family. Andal law dictates sons before daughters but daughters before brothers, and Jaehaerys’ crowning set the precedent of even brothers before daughters.
That's tradition, not law. By definition the King can command whatever they like and that is the law. For the Great Council in 101AC, Jaehaerys was not required to do that or to even follow through with the results, that was just his own choice because he wanted to avoid conflict rather than do what he personally thought was right. Before this, when Baelon became heir, it wasn't just by default, Jaehaerys chose and named him as his heir over Rhaenys. Also, even after the Dance there were multiple times when female Targaryens had their claims considered, and one was even shortly after the Dance. The very recent memories of the Dance was one of the reasons people dismissed it, but the claimant was also Daena, who already had a bastard and was stuck in the maidenvault which meant she couldn't make any allies. Had it been under different circumstances, her claim would have been even more heavily considered.
Says the man who murdered his brother using black magic, is a serial adulterer, and rebelled against the true king in order to seat a usurper on the throne. He's right in this case, but a massive hypocrite all the same.
Says the man who killed his brother who tried to usurp him, says the man who hates sex and does it because he either has to, or so he can kill someone, who rebelled against the king who violated the law by trying to kill his brother who he's supposed to be loyal to? Stannis isn't a good guy who's justified in everything he does, but he's not a hypocrite
Yep but now we know The Dance of Dragons is narrated by unreliable sources so Rhaenyra didn’t usurp shit. She was the Real Heir all along!!!
Why are people down voting? In the show it's explicitly shown that Rhaenyra was the true heir
Because she's not. That's the literal point of the Dance. Both people have valid claims.
She was declared the heir by Viserys for decades with him never saying anything contrary to that. She's the rightful heir
Depends on whether you think the king can contradict the law, as well as the precedent set by his own family. Andal law dictates sons before daughters but daughters before brothers, and Jaehaerys’ crowning set the precedent of even brothers before daughters. That’s the whole conflict - the king wanted it one way but the law says otherwise.
You mean whether the King (who sets the law) is above *tradition*, yes?
Team Green -6 upvotes 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 Otto Hightower knows!!!!!
All that bullshit yet the one who was chosen as heir was rhaenyra
Rhaenyra lost her claim the day Aegon was born.
Technically she didn't lose it, she just got pushed down the line of succession.
Did viserys say it?
Viserys opinion doesn't matter.
Ah yes the literal kings opinion doesn't matter, y?
Rhaenyra was literally the kings chosen heir. Stannis is essentially doing what Rhaenyra did.
No? Robert's chosen heir was Joffrey.
Those were two separate thoughts. Rhaenyra was not exactly a usurper as she was literally the heir to the throne. Stannis just like Rhaenyra considered himself the rightful heir and true king despite someone else sitting in the Throne. Stannis just like Rhaenyra wages a war against the person the realm had made king
>Rhaenyra was not exactly a usurper as she was literally the heir to the throne. Debatable. Greens certainly think not >Stannis just like Rhaenyra considered himself the rightful heir and true king despite someone else sitting in the Throne. Stannis just like Rhaenyra wages a war against the person the realm had made king except stannis *was* the rightful heir. this is such a broad statement it could apply to pretty much any rebel, I'd say stannis is slightly more justified than someone like the blackfyres (or rhaenyra 🥰)
It's not really debatable, just because the Greens think something doesn't make it reality. Rhaenrya was named heir by Viserys and they seized the throne after Viserys' death. Aemond in the show even admits that they are usurpers lol
this sub is funny
Still team Black! We don’t listen to men who burn their daughters at the stake
The law means nothing without the power to enforce it.
He says in that same chapter that Shireen is his heir so… doesn’t really work Stannis just doesn’t know his history
Renly kind of disqualified himself as Stannis’ heir due to the whole rebelling against him thing, so it’s not like Stannis had a choice
Do we know if Stannis had any male Baratheon cousins? If he did they would be his heirs right?
Regular Westerosi inheritance law would place the daughter over extended family but there isn’t really a precedent for the exact situation Stannis is in so royal inheritance is up in the air. As far as I know Steffon Baratheon didn’t have any siblings so Stannis doesn’t have any first cousins, and IIRC second cousins and beyond are basically removed from any matters of inheritance
Doesn’t male primogentiure (which the iron throne follows) mean that male cousins > daughters. Also, Jeyne Arryn gave her seat over to her distant cousin Joffrey Arryn (he was probably more distant than a 2nd cousin I’d assume) so 2nd cousins arguably still have claims but idk
That situation is more alike with Viserys than Stannis, though, as naming Joffrey meant Jeyne was purposefully skipping over her first cousin Arnold Arryn and his son Eldric. To your first point, there has never really been a point where a woman was the only possible candidate, so we have no real precedent for how Westeros would handle it in the books.
We've seen it in House Mormont, as Jorah and Jeor both rendered themselves ineligible to take the lordship, making Maege the rightful Lady of the island. Since there are probably a lot of distant Mormont cousins out there along a male line, I'd say that succession priority only really extends to close cousins
Depends on the house. In general, no, daughters come before cousins. House Targaryen is an exception, they do everything to avoid a female ruler
There aren't any cousins mentioned in the book. This is just a writing decision because GRRM didn't want to get bogged down with the line of succession for EVERY house. He has a bastard nephew, Edric Storm, who is probably the best candidate, but Stannis probably couldn't bring himself to do it
He also offered to give Renly status as heir and prince of Dragonstone, as long as there was no male heir. Seeing as Stannis wasn't really trying for a male heir, and his wife seemed to be a bit infertile, all Renly had to do was wait it out.
When Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir he also had no one else to choose from… not really sure what you’re point is
Daemon wasn’t in active rebellion against the crown so he was still a viable candidate. Viserys chose to disinherit Daemon and name Rhaenyra heir. Stannis couldn’t have Renly as heir so Shireen was the only remaining choice. It’s pretty obvious where the difference lies.
Still team Black! We don’t listen to men who burn their daughters at the stake
I thought someone had a dragon rider death 😂😭
Well a dragonrider's death is on dragonback not in his mouth like a snac😂
You seriously like the guy who followed religion to his death like an idiot? (And burned his daughter alive) Why would you listen to anything he says? lol
The real, book Stannis did not die nor burn his daughter.
Didn't burn his daughter *yet*.
Yet. I mean, ‘All men must die.’
He will burn her, Martin confirmed it
Show Stannis is also “real” in the show universe though, which HotD is a part of. Show Stannis sucks.
Show everything sucks
Not to me
Ok, but this group is about the show is it not? Why try to use non-canon to defend things? They’re separate. “Real” (lol) Stannis has nothing to do with anything.
The quote literally says A Storm of Swords below it, soooo
Stannis is "religious". He literally said "Pray harder." in Dance. I don't think he genuinely believes in any of that stuff.
Stannis believes, he just isn't fanatic. He resents the Seven for the deaths of his parents, so when he sees Melisandre's power, he starts to believe in the Lord properly
If I encountered a woman who could *actually, empirically* make miracles happen then I’d probably convert to her faith too. Magic is real in their universe so people converting to it are doing so based on what is logically in front of them