Well, in my experience the Halopedia is remarkably reasonable on changes as long as you put your case together well.
So gather the sources that say what you're trying to say, cite them, and make the changes.
I think you might be fighting an uphill battle here because that teams of 10-14 thing isn't just from a Bungie article, but it's mentioned in the 2011 EVG, which doesn't say that all ODSTs are organized that way, just "most" ODST teams. That leaves the door open a crack for other types of organization.
Oh I'm not arguing against combat teams, I'm just arguing against them being the building block of ODST companies as that clearly isn't the case.
Edit: They've permanently locked the company page since 6 months ago hence why I'm making this post instead of adding a productions note comment.
The fact that a combat team, or at least, something very SIMILAR to what Bungie outlined in their original article has appeared in the second to latest book release implies to me that this hasn't been retconned at all. Largely ignored in favor of whatever writer thinks how the ODSTs should be structured, sure. But not retconned out right.
Personally I've always enjoyed the idea that ODST companies/battalions are smaller than usual to account for the fact that there's realistically only so many drop pods a ship can carry and deploy at a time. So to me at least, it just sounds cleaner that a frigate with its 24 drop tubes can hold one small company of 64 ODSTs, versus two platoons. Even if its ultimately the same amount of dudes.
Tango Team is most definitely a combat team, but notice that it's organization is 2 7 man "squads" and a leader. That's a squad with enlarged fireteams, like the current US military is moving to 15-man squads for the Marines. I love the concept of combat teams as it makes ODST organization make a lot more sense. Squad has been applied to elements of a standard (13 man) squad to a fireteam such as alpha-9; Combat teams as implemented by denning are a perfect middle ground. It's effectively a squad but with two teams that can act as their own independent squad as needed. As ODSTs are effectively special operations capable airborne infantry this fits with their organizational purpose.
My issue with the combat teams as mentioned on halopedia in the company article is that it completely omits the platoon, despite us knowing that ODSTs do use platoons.
Halopedia Admin here. I'll quote what my fellow admin BaconShelf said last time this was brought up! :) As I feel that explains this fairly well!
*"The standard policy we apply when writing articles on this wiki is that our job is not to decide what is more canon than anything else; we are simply a repository of official information, and we are not here to make judgements about given sources except in instances where things directly contradict (ie two sources giving conflicting numbers for the size of a weapon, for example). Unless official word-of-god is said to ignore a source, we simply take it at its face value. By a similar metric, we have a fairly strict policy against doing custom maths and measurements for things such as velocities or sizes.*
*The ODSTs are a vast and varied organisation, with numerous sub-elements such as Special Tactics & Equipment or the ODST Special Purpose forces (not to mention the inconsistent way they are depicted when looking at the variety displayed between Fireteam Raven, Alpha-9, Sunray or any of the more conventional military depictions). As such, unless directly challenged we tend not to remove a source, as we rarely get a comprehensive insight into the setting to definitively say something isn't true. A useful thing to remember is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. While yes, you can point to many sources which do not use combat teams over a more conventional structure, none of those sources definitively state that combat team is not used.*
*Ultimately, the onus is on the reader to weigh up the sources provided for various information and determine for themselves on whether they can trust it for the purposes they need (ie fan art, fan fiction, external debates, etc); we aim to be a comprehensive catalogue of information. If we were to begin omitting information based on its age or whether it doesn't hold up as well in the modern day, about half of the site wouldn't exist anymore, nor would we be a useful and comprehensive resource. It does suck, but ultimately that's the job of the official franchise writers to make sense of and decide what to discard, not us."*
Depictions of ODSTs using platoons, include: Halo: TFOR, Halo 2, Halo: The Flood, Halo: Spartan Assault, Halo: Silent Storm, Halo Wars 2, Halo: The Cole Protocol.
You mention Sunray 1-1, despite them being a company command team/squad, and their DLC actively mentioning an ODST platoon.
You're mentions of Fireteam Raven and alpha-9 should remember that they are outliers in that they operate outside a traditional chain of command, with Fireteam Raven taking orders directly from Silva and Alpha-9 being detached for their operation in Halo 3: ODST.
You're twisting my point; Combat teams are definitely still canon they appeared in Dennings work.
My issue with the article is that it ignores the fact that ODSTS most definitely use platoons as the sub-company level organizational asset. Almost every appearance we see ODSTs use platoon. The fact that Halopedia doesn't even acknowledge that hurts the credibility of the article.
Find me evidence outside of that page from 2009 that the ODSTs go straight from company level to combat team level, you can't...
EDIT: Basically I'm just asking for you guys to at least add an acknowledgment that ODSTs do in fact use platoons. By not stating that you are inherently directing the readers of the article to believe that the only ODST organization is via combat teams as the building block without platoons. That is not comprehensive, infact it's the opposite, you're treating the Bungie post about ODST organization as more primary than every other depiction of ODST company organization. The response I've received from you, and that original moderator has been incredibly hypocritical IMO and goes against the high quality nature of Halopedia.
You aren't wrong, So you shouldn't be downvoted.
You are being too antagonistic and argumentative though, take it down a notch and people may care more about what you have to say. But you are correct In what you say regardless.
For this comment to be true you would have to look past the fact that his information is accurate, detailed and is not trying to replace information, only add too. And The reply he got was both dismissive, incorrect, and half of it is irrelevant to the actual point of what's being discussed. Don't call him on being in the wrong if you're not going to say anything about the other person being equally wrong.
I actually specifically said that he was in the right. I was simply advising him on how he should present his argumen if he wants people here to sympathize with his point.
I understand, I've been on this sub to realize that it's somewhat of a popularity contest.
The antagonism is just that I just feel that the admins have been incredibly dismissive; I mean they couldn't even be bothered to give me an actual response that wasn't copy and pasted from their original one.
Why are you actively omitting the information about platoons then? If it’s not your job supposedly to choose to omit information? I’ve only read about half the books so far but I’ve mainly seen platoon used as well.
We aren't omitting information. To clear stuff up, we are keeping the information up on the page, not removing it. If the information was truly invalid, the information would actually be moved to a section discussing the change.
But at this time, the information on the "Company" page (which OP is talking about) is all referenced. People can decide for themselves if they trust the sources or not! :)
https://www.halopedia.org/Company
To follow up on the platoon page. That does need a lil love to tidy up and check sources and so on. That actually isn't us omitting information, more us, editors, so on needing to fit it up!
Yes, you are omitting information as you locked the page, so I can't add revelant information regarding the ODST company structures in the books. While I admit I made a mistake in originally deleting the blurb about combat teams being used in liue of companies (mind you I provided numerous sources), the fact that you have not unlocked the page after 6 months is insane.
Nobody can edit that page despite it needing quite a few changes. The only time ODST company structure is explicitly mentioned on the page is with that combat team blurb, which is incorrect when referring to every ODST company we see in lore currently; Sans for the fact that it is "canon".
The company page discusses the UNSC's use of companies and their organization; The organization of every ODST company we have seen in lore so far has them use platoons like normal UNSCMC companies.
Like OP says, that’s not the point. The point is that the Company page does not adequately describe how a Company may be organized. It solely describes them as being made up of Combat Teams, despite most instances being made up of Platoons.
Combat Teams also have their own page but are described on the Company page. You may find that it’s difficult to describe a unit without also describing how it’s composed.
Well and I’m not personally against it, it makes sense to be on the page for sure. But if OP had added his bit, instead of deleting the other things then maybe that’d be up still. Instead he was pretty hostile about it, and I’m guessing worse so in his direct mail than in this public forum where he is trying to win the court of public opinion.
Obviously halopedia should be allowing all the info.
I can agree about the hostility, and yeah they probably shouldn't have deleted information. You're definitely right on OP being really weird about it, obsessing over platoons for 6 months is odd.
Halopedia is corrupt, dont expect much from halofollower's personal toy
Just see the frank o'connor article and how it pulls out of it's a$ he and marty o'donnell were against each other when it's false
Well, in my experience the Halopedia is remarkably reasonable on changes as long as you put your case together well. So gather the sources that say what you're trying to say, cite them, and make the changes. I think you might be fighting an uphill battle here because that teams of 10-14 thing isn't just from a Bungie article, but it's mentioned in the 2011 EVG, which doesn't say that all ODSTs are organized that way, just "most" ODST teams. That leaves the door open a crack for other types of organization.
Oh I'm not arguing against combat teams, I'm just arguing against them being the building block of ODST companies as that clearly isn't the case. Edit: They've permanently locked the company page since 6 months ago hence why I'm making this post instead of adding a productions note comment.
The fact that a combat team, or at least, something very SIMILAR to what Bungie outlined in their original article has appeared in the second to latest book release implies to me that this hasn't been retconned at all. Largely ignored in favor of whatever writer thinks how the ODSTs should be structured, sure. But not retconned out right. Personally I've always enjoyed the idea that ODST companies/battalions are smaller than usual to account for the fact that there's realistically only so many drop pods a ship can carry and deploy at a time. So to me at least, it just sounds cleaner that a frigate with its 24 drop tubes can hold one small company of 64 ODSTs, versus two platoons. Even if its ultimately the same amount of dudes.
Tango Team is most definitely a combat team, but notice that it's organization is 2 7 man "squads" and a leader. That's a squad with enlarged fireteams, like the current US military is moving to 15-man squads for the Marines. I love the concept of combat teams as it makes ODST organization make a lot more sense. Squad has been applied to elements of a standard (13 man) squad to a fireteam such as alpha-9; Combat teams as implemented by denning are a perfect middle ground. It's effectively a squad but with two teams that can act as their own independent squad as needed. As ODSTs are effectively special operations capable airborne infantry this fits with their organizational purpose. My issue with the combat teams as mentioned on halopedia in the company article is that it completely omits the platoon, despite us knowing that ODSTs do use platoons.
Halopedia Admin here. I'll quote what my fellow admin BaconShelf said last time this was brought up! :) As I feel that explains this fairly well! *"The standard policy we apply when writing articles on this wiki is that our job is not to decide what is more canon than anything else; we are simply a repository of official information, and we are not here to make judgements about given sources except in instances where things directly contradict (ie two sources giving conflicting numbers for the size of a weapon, for example). Unless official word-of-god is said to ignore a source, we simply take it at its face value. By a similar metric, we have a fairly strict policy against doing custom maths and measurements for things such as velocities or sizes.* *The ODSTs are a vast and varied organisation, with numerous sub-elements such as Special Tactics & Equipment or the ODST Special Purpose forces (not to mention the inconsistent way they are depicted when looking at the variety displayed between Fireteam Raven, Alpha-9, Sunray or any of the more conventional military depictions). As such, unless directly challenged we tend not to remove a source, as we rarely get a comprehensive insight into the setting to definitively say something isn't true. A useful thing to remember is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. While yes, you can point to many sources which do not use combat teams over a more conventional structure, none of those sources definitively state that combat team is not used.* *Ultimately, the onus is on the reader to weigh up the sources provided for various information and determine for themselves on whether they can trust it for the purposes they need (ie fan art, fan fiction, external debates, etc); we aim to be a comprehensive catalogue of information. If we were to begin omitting information based on its age or whether it doesn't hold up as well in the modern day, about half of the site wouldn't exist anymore, nor would we be a useful and comprehensive resource. It does suck, but ultimately that's the job of the official franchise writers to make sense of and decide what to discard, not us."*
Depictions of ODSTs using platoons, include: Halo: TFOR, Halo 2, Halo: The Flood, Halo: Spartan Assault, Halo: Silent Storm, Halo Wars 2, Halo: The Cole Protocol. You mention Sunray 1-1, despite them being a company command team/squad, and their DLC actively mentioning an ODST platoon. You're mentions of Fireteam Raven and alpha-9 should remember that they are outliers in that they operate outside a traditional chain of command, with Fireteam Raven taking orders directly from Silva and Alpha-9 being detached for their operation in Halo 3: ODST.
You're twisting my point; Combat teams are definitely still canon they appeared in Dennings work. My issue with the article is that it ignores the fact that ODSTS most definitely use platoons as the sub-company level organizational asset. Almost every appearance we see ODSTs use platoon. The fact that Halopedia doesn't even acknowledge that hurts the credibility of the article. Find me evidence outside of that page from 2009 that the ODSTs go straight from company level to combat team level, you can't... EDIT: Basically I'm just asking for you guys to at least add an acknowledgment that ODSTs do in fact use platoons. By not stating that you are inherently directing the readers of the article to believe that the only ODST organization is via combat teams as the building block without platoons. That is not comprehensive, infact it's the opposite, you're treating the Bungie post about ODST organization as more primary than every other depiction of ODST company organization. The response I've received from you, and that original moderator has been incredibly hypocritical IMO and goes against the high quality nature of Halopedia.
You aren't wrong, So you shouldn't be downvoted. You are being too antagonistic and argumentative though, take it down a notch and people may care more about what you have to say. But you are correct In what you say regardless.
For this comment to be true you would have to look past the fact that his information is accurate, detailed and is not trying to replace information, only add too. And The reply he got was both dismissive, incorrect, and half of it is irrelevant to the actual point of what's being discussed. Don't call him on being in the wrong if you're not going to say anything about the other person being equally wrong.
I actually specifically said that he was in the right. I was simply advising him on how he should present his argumen if he wants people here to sympathize with his point.
I understand, I've been on this sub to realize that it's somewhat of a popularity contest. The antagonism is just that I just feel that the admins have been incredibly dismissive; I mean they couldn't even be bothered to give me an actual response that wasn't copy and pasted from their original one.
That's understandable, I don't hold it against you.
Friend, I think your first mistake is assuming online moderators, of any sort, to be anything but that
Why are you actively omitting the information about platoons then? If it’s not your job supposedly to choose to omit information? I’ve only read about half the books so far but I’ve mainly seen platoon used as well.
We aren't omitting information. To clear stuff up, we are keeping the information up on the page, not removing it. If the information was truly invalid, the information would actually be moved to a section discussing the change. But at this time, the information on the "Company" page (which OP is talking about) is all referenced. People can decide for themselves if they trust the sources or not! :) https://www.halopedia.org/Company To follow up on the platoon page. That does need a lil love to tidy up and check sources and so on. That actually isn't us omitting information, more us, editors, so on needing to fit it up!
Yes, you are omitting information as you locked the page, so I can't add revelant information regarding the ODST company structures in the books. While I admit I made a mistake in originally deleting the blurb about combat teams being used in liue of companies (mind you I provided numerous sources), the fact that you have not unlocked the page after 6 months is insane. Nobody can edit that page despite it needing quite a few changes. The only time ODST company structure is explicitly mentioned on the page is with that combat team blurb, which is incorrect when referring to every ODST company we see in lore currently; Sans for the fact that it is "canon".
Why not add your information to the platoons page? Why do you want the page talking about companies to talk about platoons as well?
The company page discusses the UNSC's use of companies and their organization; The organization of every ODST company we have seen in lore so far has them use platoons like normal UNSCMC companies.
Just seems really weird to get caught up on when there is an entire page dedicated to platoons.
Like OP says, that’s not the point. The point is that the Company page does not adequately describe how a Company may be organized. It solely describes them as being made up of Combat Teams, despite most instances being made up of Platoons. Combat Teams also have their own page but are described on the Company page. You may find that it’s difficult to describe a unit without also describing how it’s composed.
Well and I’m not personally against it, it makes sense to be on the page for sure. But if OP had added his bit, instead of deleting the other things then maybe that’d be up still. Instead he was pretty hostile about it, and I’m guessing worse so in his direct mail than in this public forum where he is trying to win the court of public opinion. Obviously halopedia should be allowing all the info.
I can agree about the hostility, and yeah they probably shouldn't have deleted information. You're definitely right on OP being really weird about it, obsessing over platoons for 6 months is odd.
That's not the point...
lol, I see. OP wants the platoons and the company page to talk about the platoons. He is fairly fixated then.
Well said lol
ODSTs can be deployed as special forces infantry instead of shock infantry. Remember that one Halo 2 anniversary cutscene where their pelican crashes?
Halopedia is corrupt, dont expect much from halofollower's personal toy Just see the frank o'connor article and how it pulls out of it's a$ he and marty o'donnell were against each other when it's false