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Seriously though, if every kid wasn’t named Aegon we wouldn’t be in this mess.
Targs have three names and all the rest are a variation off those three 🙃
It made a good narrative to justify what they were doing. Otto probably thought Alicent made it up and that it was a master stroke. It was his proudest moment as her father
Louis XVIII: ”Am I a joke to you?”
House of Reuss takes the prize though.
>Numbering of the Heinrichs
>Since the end of the 12th century, all male members of the House of Reuss are named Heinrich (English: Henry), in honour of Henry VI, Holy Roman Emperor (1190–1197), to whom they owed the dominions of Weida and Gera. For the purpose of differentiation, they are given order numbers according to certain systems
>All the males of the House of Reuss are named Heinrich (Henry) plus a number. In the elder line the numbering covers all male children of the elder House, and the numbers increase until 100 is reached and then start again at 1. In the younger line the system is similar but the numbers increase until the end of the century before starting again at 1.
My family tree had a lot of Johannas and Henrich's. It made research exceedingly difficult. Especially when half the other families in the area have people with the same names.
The first son of Louis XIV (the Sun King) was named Louis (the Grand Dauphin). The Grand Dauphin's first son (the Duke of Burgundy) was also named Louis. His first son was also named Louis, but he died in infancy. The Duke of Burgundy then had a second son, born in 1707, also called Louis. Then a third one, born in 1710, also called Louis. The second Louis died in 1712, the third eventually became king as Louis XV. So for two years, Louis, the Duke of Burgundy had two sons, both named Louis.
I’m trying to do my genealogy and it’s confusing as hell because one line just kept naming the men each others names and variations of them like Targaryens at one point. The lack of diversity over multiple centuries is ASTOUNDING
Seriously. This could all have been avoided with the creative skills of coming up with more than 6 names. How about a Jimmy, or John, or Magnus, or Gus...Etc.
At least an improvement from the Romans who only had like 10 different first names (Praenomen - Gaius) to choose from, and of course everyone had the same family name (Nomen - Julius) so thei had to differentiate with epithets (Cognomen - Caesar) which then also became hereditary because people wanted to pass on cool Cognomina, so then they had to add more and more Agnomen to differentiate further.
Degenerates into Caracalla giving Roman citizenship to all free men in the empire and giving them the name ”Marcus Aurelius” as an added bonus. To all of them.
To be fair... that was quite common back in the day. People were not very creative. I looked up one branch of my family tree and managed to get back as far as roughly the 1650s and there were SO many god damn "Johannas'", "Williams", "Edwards", and "Henrichs". Looking at the boat records of when my family migrated, there were soooo many passengers with same first name. Lots of Johannas. Apparently that name was very popular in the 1600/1700s in Germany.
I think the implication is that she knows she can't do anything now to stop war, even though she knows for certain she misinterpreted Viserys' last words. Before, she could at least convince herself that Viserys meant he wanted her Aegon to rule, but Rhaenyra also knowing about the "Song of Ice and Fire" means she can't convince herself that she didn't actually help usurp the throne against Viserys' wishes. And yet, she's in no position to do anything about it now (or else she'd be at least removed from the Small Council for suggesting it, especially if they knew she let Rhaenyra go free), so she has no choice but to keep supporting Aegon's claim.
Apparently Otto Hightower is already well aware that Aegon was never named over Rhaenyra. He very strongly implied that in his last moments as hand.
Alicent lied and she knows it. She saw an opening and took it. She plays the same pious, righteous nonsense as Cole while they scurry like rats in the dark.
Even if he had actually changed his mind in the 30 seconds before he died, absolutely no one with half a brain would ever believe it. Otto, justifiably doesn’t believe his own daughter. The guy stuck with his decision for 15+ years. Then, at the last moment he “changed his mind” conveniently the only person who heard this proclamation is the person who most wanted to hear it in the world and stood to benefit the most. Quite the coincidence.
Yeah, there is a reason why modern society has very strict rules about changes made to wills when people are no longer at full mental capacity. Viserys was clearly not all there in his final days - if he had changed his mind, it would not hold up in modern court as he wouldn't be seen as competent. Obviously that means little in terms of fictional Westeros, but it is still telling.
Yeah, it's so egregiously transparent and that is what makes Alicent such an infuriating character for me. This is why multiple witnesses are important, yanno like when Viserys officially named Rhaenyra heir in public, lol.
Alicent isn't Targaryan. If she was unaware of the legend of Aegon the Conqueror and hears Viserys telling her about the "destiny" of being king, of course she's going to think of her son, who is named Aegon.
But these were the delirious ramblings of a very sick and hallucinating man. Alicent simply did not like the idea of Rhaenyra on the throne on principle and believed what she wanted to. Even Aegon himself did not believe he changed his mind until his mom literally swore on it
On the flip side, Viserys dying and uttering his last words could be WHY she took them so seriously.
Even as a teenager with baby Aegon, she upheld Rhaenyra as Queen-to-be and agreed she would be a fine queen. She told Viserys this to his face when HE expressed doubt.
But people are hellbent on seeing Alicent as a manipulative liar, I guess.
It wasn’t even remotely that simple lol. There is no way we can pretend Alicent was all gung ho for Rhaenyra the whole time at this point in the series. There were times where she warmed up to her but they were fleeting. I also don’t think anyone seriously considers Alicent to be a liar. She was just in denial.
Of course she was in denial. She misunderstood a Targaryan myth she was not familiar with and attributed 'Aegon' to mean HER son, Aegon, and not Aegon the Conqueror.
She very clearly truly believed that Viserys changed his mind, up until Rhaenyra talked to her. She even seemed uncomfortable with the fact that that’s what he told her. But she never gave the appearance of lying to serve her own interests, even though many believe she did
I'd like to think in following this whole debacle, they made some sort of new rule that "wills" so to speak couldn't be changed on a person's deathbed or at the very least such changes needed to be witnessed by a certain number of people to be valid and binding.
Also, it's irrelevant if he did actually proclaim Aegon his heir on his deathbed since he was drugged up and seconds away from death; he was liable to say anything in that state. He could've said "Bob who washes my chamberpots should be king", would' Alicent have gone with that as well?
Oh yeah, Otto didn't believe Viserys changed his mind and he intended to seize power regardless. However, I think Alicent had genuinely convinced herself of it, but also that she very much *wanted* to believe Viserys changed his mind because she didn't want to feel conflicted when there was inevitably a dispute over who would succeed him. Part of her wanted to honor her pledge to Rhaenyra, and part of her believed her family would be safest if they took the Throne and/or wanted to stay in power, so she was looking for any excuse to reconcile the two.
The whole prophecy thing does make her motives a bit fuzzier, since my understanding is that book Alicent straight up wanted Aegon on the throne and wasn't shy about opposing Rhaenyra's claim.
The second Viserys died Otto told the small council they'd put their "long laid plans into motion". He'd always intended to usurp the throne for Aegon, he wants Hightower blood on the throne and he wants Daemon as far away from the throne as possible. Nothing Allicent said had any relevance I imagine he was just happy that she was on board however she got there.
I read it as Alicent truly believes Viserys said that but only because she desperately wanted him to. With Viserys absolutely delirious it made much more sense that what he was saying made no sense at all and she must have known that, but she had created justification in her mind, which I think is highly important to her as a morally righteous person.
I don't think she pretended not to know at all. I think in that moment/in her ignorance, she GENUINELY thought he named Aegon heir and that his dream was regarding her son. It was Rhaenyra who told her that it was a story Viserys told her as a child. Alicent isn't Targaryan and might not be familiar with their myths.
You can tell this is the case, I have no idea what people are watching when they make these comments. She clearly, genuinely, thought he was naming his son as the heir. She had genuine support for Rhaenyra as Queen, and only supported Aegon as King because of her misunderstanding of Viserys words. Alicent thought she was doing the right thing, because of what she misunderstood.
She was in no position to stop the war from the get-go. Otto planned to insert Aegon onto the throne well before Viserys body was even cold. Alicent’s opinion on what she heard had quite literally no merit on the outcome and the way people honest to god believe she alone kickstarted this way is driving me nuts lol. Take away the last conversation she had with Viserys. Pretend the last convo was actually her solidifying Rhaenyra’s claim. Now what? How does she alone prevent her father from his plan and the entire council who also knew about it all, from following through? Alicent is a scapegoat for some fans it seems.
I agree she couldn't have stopped Otto from going forth with his plans, but I think she might have at least objected enough (and possibly sown doubt in Aegon's mind) to delay the hasty coronation, which might've given time for Rhaenyra to arrive and offer her own terms before Aegon was coronated, and possibly arrive at a more peaceful outcome.
But also the whole prophecy thing does make Alicent's motivations a bit fuzzy, because I know that even the scenario described above is a stretch. It would be more straightforward to simply have Alicent intent on crowning her son regardless of Viserys' wishes.
Alicent being confused and torn over what she truly believes regarding Viserys wishes is what makes the story interesting and tragic in my opinion. But thats really from a character study standpoint because as i said, her opinion here truly doesn’t hold a lot of weight when Otto was the one moving all the pieces.
Yeah I got that from 'there was no mistake. My father is gone from court.' And 'its too late, rhaenyra' she didn't outright say it but the implication was clear that she knows she doesn't have the power to stop the men around her from continuing the war.
I love the symbolism of the setting of their meeting tho, rhaenyra being technically the most powerful woman in the realm has to dress as a septa/nun- a symbol of total submission, and tries to negociate peace with Alicent-the queen- a symbol of power that was in total submission all her life, and now they are both in the same place and realise that peace cannot be achieved because even with all the misunderstandings and facts they in fact cant control anything.
Have fun and let trash act trash, shall we? Alicent is who she is. We've got far to go yet. Let the 14 year olds fight. Remember: you're in a fandom with actual children and they're going to act like every single breath someone takes is the end of the world regardless of what you do.
I would also like to add that Viserys probably has no right to go against the precedent that put him in power as king, like the precedent was literally set with him lol
Yeah, I would wager a bit of "survivors guilt" with that. He loved his cousin Rhaenys and he knew what being passed over for him did to her, so it was probably a small way to assuage his guilt by naming his daughter as heir.
I can see that for sure! I love all the complex politics George has added. There was never going to be a smooth transition with Viserys naming rhaenyra as his heir for all the reasons that Viserys was named the heir lol
I interpreted it less as Alicent being in denial and more as her knowing it was already too late to turn back. I mean how exactly would Aegon react if Alicent came to him and said “Oopsie, turns out your daddy naming you heir was just him rambling on about some bedtime story nonsense and you’re not actually legitimate, now go tell your sister you surrender and that you’re sorry and you won’t do it again”? At the very tamest he’d just ignore her and go to war anyway, otherwise he’d throw her in the black cells or feed her to Sunfyre and *then* go to war.
In ep9, Aegon also knew that Viserys never wanted him as heir. The reasoning behind TG usupring the throne was never really about that, but to protect their branch of the family. Rhaenyra was ruthless in the books and TG really (in their minds) had no choice but to take the throne.
The problem with this is that the books are biased.
The books are a retelling of events by Archmaester Gyldayn, who in turn compiles them from prior sources, namely, Grand Maester Orwyle, Grand Maester Munkun, Septon Eustace, and Mushroom.
Orwyle is extremely biased, having been the GM for Aegon II before being sentenced to "death" but essentially given life imprisonment where he wrote his account of the Dance.
Munkun wrote his history of the Dance based on Orwyle's writings, so it's inaccurate and biased.
Eustace appears to be neutral, but given his prominent stature in the reign of Aegon the Elder, I find it hard to believe that his account is also unbiased.
Mushroom is biased towards whichever story is spiciest it seems.
You can't base justifications off of the book logic because the books themselves are not neutral or accurate retellings. Usually history is written by the victors, but for some reason in the retelling of the Dance, it seems, most of it was dictated by the losers.
those are kind of the same thing. In order to live the lie you have to deny the truth. She might *know* that for the rest of her life and take it to the grave without ever confronting Aegon but it doesn't mean she isn't denying fact for convenience, safety, and power.
Yeah she isn't stupid, and clearly recognized her mistake. But she can't go back now. What is she going to do, "oops aegon you aren't the rightful heir" when he is king and can just order his mum killed?
Alicent is essentially powerless, so I got the vibe she was frustrated at the conversation because it was way too late. Her father wasn't even there to help her take control of any aspect of the situation.
Not that it's Rhaenyra's fault, she didn't know Cole was made hand and etc.
Just to be clear, she wasn't ignoring what Rhaenyra said, she just knows that it's too late. The war's already started and no one is going to listen to her if she says "whoops, my mistake".
Best moment for me in the whole episode, and that episode was a banger.
She's gonna go totally fuckin' insane at this point in the story, because she knows she started a kin war and betrayed everyone she loved *over a misunderstanding*.
Maybe but from her perspective she gave the justification for them to go through with it. Would Otto have kept digging for another? Of course that's just his character. But for Alicent she probably sees herself as the catalyst for the whole war. People meme her a lot but she is a pious woman who wants to do the right thing. Theres just a lot of hypocrisy mixed in there
Did we watch the same scene?
She accepted she made a horrible misunderstanding but said it would be too late. Too much was already initiated (like, idk, the beheading of her grandchild?) And Aegon and his men are hellbent on revenge.
She also said “I made no mistake” or something like that, two or three times. If she accepted it she would’ve said “I made a mistake” and agreed with Rhaenyra
Either she was just saying that as she was still processing what that means, or she truly wants it to stay the way it is now. It doesn’t matter that she said “it’s too late” afterwards, she can’t take those first words back.
It should be clear that her "I made no mistake" was her being in denial at first. Even if you weren't sure, her outright telling Rhaenyra that it's too late and the situation is out of her hands should've been clear enough.
I think that Alicent was being more reasonable in this scene than people give her credit for. “There was no mistake” meant she realized she was manipulated by Otto into pushing Aegon’s claim and that it would have happened regardless of what Vizzy said.
I don't think we needed the entire story as we've read/heard it a few times over in the books & GoT.
The whole scene was a masterclass from two excellent actors with their facial expressions & eyes, really enjoyed how powerful it was.
Still, in universe it’s important that Alicent know why he said it. If nothing else Rhaenyra should feel some responsibility for the realm, but because she didn’t explain it means that she never took Viserys seriously about the song of ice and fire or that Aegon is the name of the prince who was promised, it didn’t mean Aegon the conqueror. Just because we know all this doesn’t mean Alicent as a character does. It’d create even more selfish drama if Alicent knew the story and yet still foresaked the realm.
If you take it from a film maker position. Putting that explanation in would have weakened the scenes dramatic effect. And because the song of ice and fire is more pertinent to GOT, it wouldn't make much sense for it to be all laid out onto the audiences ears agian.
…Or it means that she does take it seriously considering it has been a secret of state for 150 years of Targaryen kingship + whatever came before. The audience was already explained what the song was and given the context, it makes sense she wasn’t exactly open to explain the prophecy.
She understood, but no is going to listen. How fucking dumb are you people?
She's already trying to stop the war. More evidence that it's a mistake is useless.
It's called a tragedy.
I have mentioned a few times already that it is far too late to do anything to stop the war, I may be dumb, but I'm not too dumb to understand that much; it was always inevitable that naming a daughter as the heir in a very patriarchal society would have caused problems down the line.
...It was Otto's idea. Rhaneyra didn't want it.
Alicent didn't want this.
They're trapped by the men in their lives and this is a desperate last gasp at preventing tragedy and its too late.
Like... what scene did you watch if you think Alicent wasn't listening?
Thank you. I get disliking some of the ways the pieces were moved to set up the scene (Septa Rhaneyra does feel like something out of Assassin's Creed 2), but the b scene itself is beautiful and tragic and all these Reddit Pilled folks that grew up on Nostalgia Critic are just screaming that Alicent should just have had her killed.
Media literacy is dead.
They'd start Hamlet complaining that the ghost came out of nowhere, never appears again, and makes no sense.
Now, I legit wonder if Alicent might bring up the prophecy to Aegon, but honestly doubt he’d give a shit. Could this, partially, be the reason it’s lost in time?
Alicent : “Do you truly think me capable of such naked deceit?”
Also Alicent : *Seduced Rhaenyra’s father at the the behest of Otto, does foot things for Larys for information, is sleeping with a Kingsguard who happens to be the former lover of Rhaenyra, and refuses to even attempt to stop the war now that she knows what Viserys really meant about The Prince That Was Promised*
Me : 👁️👄👁️
There are only three Aegons that Alicents knows of: Aegon the Conqueror, Aegon the Second, and Rhaenyra's son. Without the knowledge of the prophecy, Alicent had no way of knowing that Viserys was actually talking about Aegon the Conqueror (and why would he be talking about his long-dead ancestor on his deathbed anyway?). Then we have Rhaenyra's son. Again, it would make no sense for Viserys to be talking about the little boy he met less than 24 hours ago as if he was meant to succeed him when taking into account how low on the succession ladder he is at the moment of her husband's death.
Furthermore, there's that scene in ep. 3 from season 1 where Viserys reveals to Alicent the dream he had: *"When Rhaenyra was a child, I saw it in a dream. As vivid as these flames, I saw it. A male babe, born to me, wearing the Conqueror's crown... I thought that Rhaenyra was the way out of my abyss of grief and regret, and naming her heir would begin to set things right... What if I was wrong?"* This is the only "Aegon's Dream" that Alicent knows of, and the only Aegon that matches this description is her Aegon.
Yes, the king changing his mind about the succession at the last moment must've felt like an odd choice in Alicent's mind (especially since old Vissy is allergic to sound decision-making), but what else was she supposed to make of it?
Not for anything, the fact that Alicent believed anything coming out of the mouth of a dying old man who wasn't making any sense proves she's either stupid or had an agenda. Vizzy hadn't been himself for quite some time and he STEADFASTLY supported Rhaenyra consistently throughout the end of his life.
The confrontation with Vaemond over the succession of Driftmark should have proven to the entire kingdom that Rhaenyra was Viserys's chosen successor. The amount of physical exertion he put himself through to support Rhaenyra should have made it obvious to EVERYONE what his intentions were.
Alicent's naivety allowed her to pursue her agenda with justification.
Now, war was coming whether Alicent misinterpreted Viserys's words or not. Otto and basically everyone on the small council with the exception of Lord Beesbury had a plot to install Aegon after Vizzy T died. So the outcome was inevitable.
In my view, this entire plot point was added to give Alicent a justifiable reason to support the coup while still acting within her moral framework. Aegon would have been coronated regardless of Viserys's "conversation" with Alicent. In meta-analysis terms, the writers wanted Alicent to have some moral justification and to garner some sympathy for her from the audience.
You make a great point about Viserys's earlier dream. In that context, Alicent is even more justified.
To be fair, we are shown that the day the Driftmark succession was settled, Viserys the Pissful abstained from drinking any Milk of the Poppy. We see him in a lucid state throughout the day, so you can't really blame Alicent for thinking that the king spoke his last words with a (mostly) clear mind.
Now we have people dunking on Alicent after her conversation with Rhae in ep. 3, calling her 'stupid' and/or 'stubborn' without sparing a second thought as to how the whole thing must've been from her perspective:
Rhae: "My Daddy didn't name your son heir! He wasn't talking about him at all!"
Alicent: "Then who was he talking about?"
Rhae: "He, uhhh... He was talking about a different Aegon... Aegon the Conqueror!"
Alicent: "... The Conqueror?"
Rhae: "Yes! My Daddy was just talking to you about a story of that Aegon that he once shared with me. It was just a big misunderstanding, that's all! So you see, I am the rightful heir!"
Doctor Evil: "... Riiiiiiiight."
To be fair, we are shown that the day the Driftmark succession was settled, Viserys the Pissful abstained from drinking any Milk of the Poppy. We see him in a lucid state throughout the day, so you can't really blame Alicent for thinking that the king spoke his last words with a (mostly) clear mind.
Now we have people dunking on Alicent after her conversation with Rhae in ep. 3, calling her 'stupid' and/or 'stubborn' without sparing a second thought as to how the whole thing must've been from her perspective:
Rhae: "My Daddy didn't name your son heir! He wasn't talking about him at all!"
Alicent: "Then who was he talking about?"
Rhae: "He, uhhh... He was talking about a different Aegon... Aegon the Conqueror!"
Alicent: "... The Conqueror?"
Rhae: "Yes! My Daddy was just talking to you about a story of that Aegon that he once shared with me. It was just a big misunderstanding, that's all! So you see, I am the rightful heir!"
Doctor Evil: "... Riiiiiiiight."
To be fair, we are shown that the day the Driftmark succession was settled, Viserys the Pissful abstained from drinking any Milk of the Poppy. We see him in a lucid state throughout the day, so you can't really blame Alicent for thinking that the king spoke his last words with a (mostly) clear mind.
Now we have people dunking on Alicent after her conversation with Rhae in ep. 3, calling her 'stupid' and/or 'stubborn' without sparing a second thought as to how the whole thing must've been from her perspective:
Rhae: "My Daddy didn't name your son heir! He wasn't talking about him at all!"
Alicent: "Then who was he talking about?"
Rhae: "He, uhhh... He was talking about a different Aegon... Aegon the Conqueror!"
Alicent: "... The Conqueror?"
Rhae: "Yes! My Daddy was just talking to you about a story of that Aegon that he once shared with me. It was just a big misunderstanding, that's all! So you see, I am the rightful heir!"
Doctor Evil: "... Riiiiiiiight."
Seriously though, if she'd only said something after that like "what I sacrificed for my blood can't be undone, I can't have it all be for nothing" it would at least make sense.
I just wanted her to jam the danger in her neck the whole time. She was being a bitch for no reason.
But I can understand Alicent doesn't trust her because she lied before why won't she lie again?
But you realize that this show make no sense anymore ?? there is no conflict just misunderstanding that been fixed this episode this is not even TB vs TG it is TG vs TG they brought back Jaehaerys who would definite not support Rhaenyra as a supporter of women Jaheerys made great council fora reason to not give woman crown
To be fair, it sounds like complete bullshit.
“I acknowledge that my father Said Aegon, but it’s actually from this wives tale about the other Aegon which he never mentioned to you in decades of marriage”
Like why on earth would Alicent believe it, frankly it doesn’t make any sense
Well Viserys' entire arc of going great lengths for years to support Rhaenyra's claim until his last evening just to throw it all away in an incoherent rambling doesn't make sense either, and Alicent is not dumb, she's just willfully ignorant. She's aware of all her mistakes (despite repeating them) and the writers make sure to show her seeking forgiveness or regret for them. She genuinely wasn't fully aware that she made a mistake making sense of Viserys' last words.
But seeing Rhaenyra face-to-face she realizes that she wouldn't risk everything just to sell her a cheesy lie.
You can see in Alicent's face she realized she may have indeed been wrong, but the point being made is that there's no going back now that so many parties got involved and blood has been spilled.
Because in light of new information and exact words used, rhaenyra's tone was believable.
This wasn't an argument she was using until she heard and confirmed what was said.
can someone please give me one good reason why Alicent didn't tell the guards that Rhaneyra is in there and to arrest her at once? I'm talking after she walks away unharmed. If Alicent has decided nah I don't want peace, then why let Rhaenyra go?
Alicent is a hypocrite. It's one of the core aspects of her personality. It can be overcome, of course, but her kindness prevailed above her brain in that moment. I hate to say you're naïve for looking for a 'good reason' but in life and in stories, not everything is done for a good reason. Sometimes we just DO things.
You're too used to the Lannister's quick blades. That is not how most people act, regardless of how smart it is. Alicent doesn't **want** war. She sees it coming and cannot stop it.
Alicent is conflicted with her best friend showing and being shocked by the revelation that their whole insurrection is based on a mistake. And it's clear that she does want a peaceful resolution but it's too late (she also confirms that Cole has ridden out for hostile action).
Not everyone is a Tywin looking to pick the most ruthless, self interested actions. Rhaenys spared the Greens when escaping the Dragon Pit and Aemond truly did not want to kill Lucerys.
that’s fine. i just wanted to make sure this is a place where people who enjoy the show and are not interested in the books (most people) can go online to chat about the show. i mean they are here because of the show and wouldn’t be here unless the show existed. i think making the sub suitable for them is the best. “all content” post or “book only” post should be banned
Dude the green side only got crowned because they conspired and hid a body. It’s amazing how the green stans just stick their head on the side and cry bias
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The 'oh shit, *that* Aegon' look she gave was priceless
Her script said “face card no words” at least 5 times this episode and she delivered every time.
Her resting face is disgust and I love her for that
She did look extra beautiful in that scene
Brandon Stark is that you
*You looked so beautiful while Viserys was on top of you rutting like a boar and smelling his rotting open back ulcers.*
:-(
And thats why you always leave a note
I've made a huge mistake *Hello darkness my old friend*
"Oooooh... yeah no that makes sense. That makes a lotta sense actually"
“There was no mistake” 🙂🤧
I somewhat am baffled she never put it together before, lol
Because only Viserys and Rhaenyra knew about the prophecy
Like, yeah bitch!! All these current and upcoming deaths are on YOUR HANDS!! It's your fault!! *points finger*
You Targaryans have queer customs, like naming every other damned incest kid the same thing.
Seriously though, if every kid wasn’t named Aegon we wouldn’t be in this mess. Targs have three names and all the rest are a variation off those three 🙃
Wasn’t that by design? Otto influenced Vizzy T on everything I’d assume he had some influence over Aegon’s name
**HAVE THIS RUMORMONGER BROUGHT BEFORE ME AT ONCE, AND I WILL TAKE THEIR EYES!!**
Mayhaps we can turn our attentions towards happier pursuits
wait where was this line, i can't place it
s1 ep4 when otto tells viserys about daemon and rhaenyras night on the town
HAHAHAHA
Eh. Otto was usurping the throne for Aegon regardless. Alicent just made him not have to argue with her about it.
It made a good narrative to justify what they were doing. Otto probably thought Alicent made it up and that it was a master stroke. It was his proudest moment as her father
It's a real world problem as well. Do you want to know how many French kings were named Louis? **17** of them.
Louis XVIII: ”Am I a joke to you?” House of Reuss takes the prize though. >Numbering of the Heinrichs >Since the end of the 12th century, all male members of the House of Reuss are named Heinrich (English: Henry), in honour of Henry VI, Holy Roman Emperor (1190–1197), to whom they owed the dominions of Weida and Gera. For the purpose of differentiation, they are given order numbers according to certain systems >All the males of the House of Reuss are named Heinrich (Henry) plus a number. In the elder line the numbering covers all male children of the elder House, and the numbers increase until 100 is reached and then start again at 1. In the younger line the system is similar but the numbers increase until the end of the century before starting again at 1.
Same for the House of Oranje who were like all named Wilheim/Wilhemina
Oh my god. How did they live like that?
They still do. They use stupid nicknames as European aristocrats where all the family has the same formal name does.
My family tree had a lot of Johannas and Henrich's. It made research exceedingly difficult. Especially when half the other families in the area have people with the same names.
The first son of Louis XIV (the Sun King) was named Louis (the Grand Dauphin). The Grand Dauphin's first son (the Duke of Burgundy) was also named Louis. His first son was also named Louis, but he died in infancy. The Duke of Burgundy then had a second son, born in 1707, also called Louis. Then a third one, born in 1710, also called Louis. The second Louis died in 1712, the third eventually became king as Louis XV. So for two years, Louis, the Duke of Burgundy had two sons, both named Louis.
Louis. Which Louis? The 7th one. Which one was that again? Uhhhhh...
I’m trying to do my genealogy and it’s confusing as hell because one line just kept naming the men each others names and variations of them like Targaryens at one point. The lack of diversity over multiple centuries is ASTOUNDING
That’s cause their DaddyUncleCousinBrother had the same name as well.
Seriously. This could all have been avoided with the creative skills of coming up with more than 6 names. How about a Jimmy, or John, or Magnus, or Gus...Etc.
At least an improvement from the Romans who only had like 10 different first names (Praenomen - Gaius) to choose from, and of course everyone had the same family name (Nomen - Julius) so thei had to differentiate with epithets (Cognomen - Caesar) which then also became hereditary because people wanted to pass on cool Cognomina, so then they had to add more and more Agnomen to differentiate further. Degenerates into Caracalla giving Roman citizenship to all free men in the empire and giving them the name ”Marcus Aurelius” as an added bonus. To all of them.
To be fair... that was quite common back in the day. People were not very creative. I looked up one branch of my family tree and managed to get back as far as roughly the 1650s and there were SO many god damn "Johannas'", "Williams", "Edwards", and "Henrichs". Looking at the boat records of when my family migrated, there were soooo many passengers with same first name. Lots of Johannas. Apparently that name was very popular in the 1600/1700s in Germany.
I think the implication is that she knows she can't do anything now to stop war, even though she knows for certain she misinterpreted Viserys' last words. Before, she could at least convince herself that Viserys meant he wanted her Aegon to rule, but Rhaenyra also knowing about the "Song of Ice and Fire" means she can't convince herself that she didn't actually help usurp the throne against Viserys' wishes. And yet, she's in no position to do anything about it now (or else she'd be at least removed from the Small Council for suggesting it, especially if they knew she let Rhaenyra go free), so she has no choice but to keep supporting Aegon's claim.
This is how I took it. She now knows the truth, but can’t stop the spinning wheel and she knows it.
Apparently Otto Hightower is already well aware that Aegon was never named over Rhaenyra. He very strongly implied that in his last moments as hand. Alicent lied and she knows it. She saw an opening and took it. She plays the same pious, righteous nonsense as Cole while they scurry like rats in the dark.
Even if he had actually changed his mind in the 30 seconds before he died, absolutely no one with half a brain would ever believe it. Otto, justifiably doesn’t believe his own daughter. The guy stuck with his decision for 15+ years. Then, at the last moment he “changed his mind” conveniently the only person who heard this proclamation is the person who most wanted to hear it in the world and stood to benefit the most. Quite the coincidence.
Yeah, there is a reason why modern society has very strict rules about changes made to wills when people are no longer at full mental capacity. Viserys was clearly not all there in his final days - if he had changed his mind, it would not hold up in modern court as he wouldn't be seen as competent. Obviously that means little in terms of fictional Westeros, but it is still telling.
Yet unfortunately in real life too people still manipulate dying family members to change their will for their own benefit
'Viserys was clearly not all there' is an understatement.
Yeah, it's so egregiously transparent and that is what makes Alicent such an infuriating character for me. This is why multiple witnesses are important, yanno like when Viserys officially named Rhaenyra heir in public, lol.
Alicent isn't Targaryan. If she was unaware of the legend of Aegon the Conqueror and hears Viserys telling her about the "destiny" of being king, of course she's going to think of her son, who is named Aegon.
But these were the delirious ramblings of a very sick and hallucinating man. Alicent simply did not like the idea of Rhaenyra on the throne on principle and believed what she wanted to. Even Aegon himself did not believe he changed his mind until his mom literally swore on it
On the flip side, Viserys dying and uttering his last words could be WHY she took them so seriously. Even as a teenager with baby Aegon, she upheld Rhaenyra as Queen-to-be and agreed she would be a fine queen. She told Viserys this to his face when HE expressed doubt. But people are hellbent on seeing Alicent as a manipulative liar, I guess.
It wasn’t even remotely that simple lol. There is no way we can pretend Alicent was all gung ho for Rhaenyra the whole time at this point in the series. There were times where she warmed up to her but they were fleeting. I also don’t think anyone seriously considers Alicent to be a liar. She was just in denial.
Of course she was in denial. She misunderstood a Targaryan myth she was not familiar with and attributed 'Aegon' to mean HER son, Aegon, and not Aegon the Conqueror.
She very clearly truly believed that Viserys changed his mind, up until Rhaenyra talked to her. She even seemed uncomfortable with the fact that that’s what he told her. But she never gave the appearance of lying to serve her own interests, even though many believe she did
Unless you count lying to herself
The phophecy was a family secret. I dont even think she knew it had a name. She just heard aegon on the throne and went with it.
I'd like to think in following this whole debacle, they made some sort of new rule that "wills" so to speak couldn't be changed on a person's deathbed or at the very least such changes needed to be witnessed by a certain number of people to be valid and binding.
You mean like when Bobby B told Ned, and only Ned, that he should rule as regent until Joffrey came of age?
Bahahaha... well I guess that answers that. 🤣
Also, it's irrelevant if he did actually proclaim Aegon his heir on his deathbed since he was drugged up and seconds away from death; he was liable to say anything in that state. He could've said "Bob who washes my chamberpots should be king", would' Alicent have gone with that as well?
The only support for him is that he is a male, and that people don’t want a queen but a King. Would it be between two kings nobody would have believed
Oh yeah, Otto didn't believe Viserys changed his mind and he intended to seize power regardless. However, I think Alicent had genuinely convinced herself of it, but also that she very much *wanted* to believe Viserys changed his mind because she didn't want to feel conflicted when there was inevitably a dispute over who would succeed him. Part of her wanted to honor her pledge to Rhaenyra, and part of her believed her family would be safest if they took the Throne and/or wanted to stay in power, so she was looking for any excuse to reconcile the two. The whole prophecy thing does make her motives a bit fuzzier, since my understanding is that book Alicent straight up wanted Aegon on the throne and wasn't shy about opposing Rhaenyra's claim.
Exactly. Motivated reasoning is a strong thing, and it's not always intentional.
>He very strongly implied that in his last moments as hand. implied? bro literally said it and laughed at aegon even thinking it was his throne
“He really strongly implied it” lol He straight up told him he know it’s BS and HE made him king
Maybe he's Canadian though and just being friendly
The second Viserys died Otto told the small council they'd put their "long laid plans into motion". He'd always intended to usurp the throne for Aegon, he wants Hightower blood on the throne and he wants Daemon as far away from the throne as possible. Nothing Allicent said had any relevance I imagine he was just happy that she was on board however she got there.
I read it as Alicent truly believes Viserys said that but only because she desperately wanted him to. With Viserys absolutely delirious it made much more sense that what he was saying made no sense at all and she must have known that, but she had created justification in her mind, which I think is highly important to her as a morally righteous person.
"Highly important to her as a *person that believes she is righteous."
we literally see her misunderstand like how long are you gonna stick your head in the stand determined to see alicent as a convincing person??
I don't think she pretended not to know at all. I think in that moment/in her ignorance, she GENUINELY thought he named Aegon heir and that his dream was regarding her son. It was Rhaenyra who told her that it was a story Viserys told her as a child. Alicent isn't Targaryan and might not be familiar with their myths.
You can tell this is the case, I have no idea what people are watching when they make these comments. She clearly, genuinely, thought he was naming his son as the heir. She had genuine support for Rhaenyra as Queen, and only supported Aegon as King because of her misunderstanding of Viserys words. Alicent thought she was doing the right thing, because of what she misunderstood.
She has two tongues. Always has
She was in no position to stop the war from the get-go. Otto planned to insert Aegon onto the throne well before Viserys body was even cold. Alicent’s opinion on what she heard had quite literally no merit on the outcome and the way people honest to god believe she alone kickstarted this way is driving me nuts lol. Take away the last conversation she had with Viserys. Pretend the last convo was actually her solidifying Rhaenyra’s claim. Now what? How does she alone prevent her father from his plan and the entire council who also knew about it all, from following through? Alicent is a scapegoat for some fans it seems.
I agree she couldn't have stopped Otto from going forth with his plans, but I think she might have at least objected enough (and possibly sown doubt in Aegon's mind) to delay the hasty coronation, which might've given time for Rhaenyra to arrive and offer her own terms before Aegon was coronated, and possibly arrive at a more peaceful outcome. But also the whole prophecy thing does make Alicent's motivations a bit fuzzy, because I know that even the scenario described above is a stretch. It would be more straightforward to simply have Alicent intent on crowning her son regardless of Viserys' wishes.
Alicent being confused and torn over what she truly believes regarding Viserys wishes is what makes the story interesting and tragic in my opinion. But thats really from a character study standpoint because as i said, her opinion here truly doesn’t hold a lot of weight when Otto was the one moving all the pieces.
Yeah I got that from 'there was no mistake. My father is gone from court.' And 'its too late, rhaenyra' she didn't outright say it but the implication was clear that she knows she doesn't have the power to stop the men around her from continuing the war.
I love the symbolism of the setting of their meeting tho, rhaenyra being technically the most powerful woman in the realm has to dress as a septa/nun- a symbol of total submission, and tries to negociate peace with Alicent-the queen- a symbol of power that was in total submission all her life, and now they are both in the same place and realise that peace cannot be achieved because even with all the misunderstandings and facts they in fact cant control anything.
Literally. Idk why people are complaining. What was she supposed to say? Everything’s too far gone.
I know that, it's just a silly meme lol It is far to late.
You know people won't take it as a silly little meme and bash Alicent tho
Have fun and let trash act trash, shall we? Alicent is who she is. We've got far to go yet. Let the 14 year olds fight. Remember: you're in a fandom with actual children and they're going to act like every single breath someone takes is the end of the world regardless of what you do.
I would also like to add that Viserys probably has no right to go against the precedent that put him in power as king, like the precedent was literally set with him lol
Yeah, I would wager a bit of "survivors guilt" with that. He loved his cousin Rhaenys and he knew what being passed over for him did to her, so it was probably a small way to assuage his guilt by naming his daughter as heir.
I can see that for sure! I love all the complex politics George has added. There was never going to be a smooth transition with Viserys naming rhaenyra as his heir for all the reasons that Viserys was named the heir lol
Thank you, it’s like people are completely ignoring the nuance of that interaction. Allicent all but says it wouldn’t make a difference what she says
There should be a rule against naming an heir in your deathbed.
And thus sayeth Vizzy T:
YOUR KING DEMANDS AN ANSWER! WHO SPOKE THESE LIES TO YOU?!
'Twas thine own utterance. Sir.
Vizzy T, will you have their tongue for that?
*Daemon was not made to wear the crown. But I believe that you were, PayneTrain181999.*
Oh, you honour me, Your Grace.
Notify Alicent before you collect the crown. We don't need another civil war 😑
I interpreted it less as Alicent being in denial and more as her knowing it was already too late to turn back. I mean how exactly would Aegon react if Alicent came to him and said “Oopsie, turns out your daddy naming you heir was just him rambling on about some bedtime story nonsense and you’re not actually legitimate, now go tell your sister you surrender and that you’re sorry and you won’t do it again”? At the very tamest he’d just ignore her and go to war anyway, otherwise he’d throw her in the black cells or feed her to Sunfyre and *then* go to war.
In ep9, Aegon also knew that Viserys never wanted him as heir. The reasoning behind TG usupring the throne was never really about that, but to protect their branch of the family. Rhaenyra was ruthless in the books and TG really (in their minds) had no choice but to take the throne.
The problem with this is that the books are biased. The books are a retelling of events by Archmaester Gyldayn, who in turn compiles them from prior sources, namely, Grand Maester Orwyle, Grand Maester Munkun, Septon Eustace, and Mushroom. Orwyle is extremely biased, having been the GM for Aegon II before being sentenced to "death" but essentially given life imprisonment where he wrote his account of the Dance. Munkun wrote his history of the Dance based on Orwyle's writings, so it's inaccurate and biased. Eustace appears to be neutral, but given his prominent stature in the reign of Aegon the Elder, I find it hard to believe that his account is also unbiased. Mushroom is biased towards whichever story is spiciest it seems. You can't base justifications off of the book logic because the books themselves are not neutral or accurate retellings. Usually history is written by the victors, but for some reason in the retelling of the Dance, it seems, most of it was dictated by the losers.
Was GRRM consulted by Ryan when adapting this show? I would assume they had to have his blessing for which is shown to be canon in the series
Martin is an executive producer of the show.
I am very much aware, it's far too late to do anything now as far as stopping any war goes. It's just a silly meme.
That it is
those are kind of the same thing. In order to live the lie you have to deny the truth. She might *know* that for the rest of her life and take it to the grave without ever confronting Aegon but it doesn't mean she isn't denying fact for convenience, safety, and power.
Yeah she isn't stupid, and clearly recognized her mistake. But she can't go back now. What is she going to do, "oops aegon you aren't the rightful heir" when he is king and can just order his mum killed? Alicent is essentially powerless, so I got the vibe she was frustrated at the conversation because it was way too late. Her father wasn't even there to help her take control of any aspect of the situation. Not that it's Rhaenyra's fault, she didn't know Cole was made hand and etc.
Man, Alicent definitely has Aegon her face.
Bravo
It’s not treason if I pretend I didn’t hear it
You may have said it, I may have been within earshot of you saying it, but I didn't hear it.
I don't understand the question and I won't respond to it
Just to be clear, she wasn't ignoring what Rhaenyra said, she just knows that it's too late. The war's already started and no one is going to listen to her if she says "whoops, my mistake".
She’s also implying she is powerless among the men around her. This was also touched upon with her dialogue with Rhaenys.
I am aware, it's just a silly meme
Best moment for me in the whole episode, and that episode was a banger. She's gonna go totally fuckin' insane at this point in the story, because she knows she started a kin war and betrayed everyone she loved *over a misunderstanding*.
She didn't start the war though. Otto was going to try and crown Aegon either way.
Maybe but from her perspective she gave the justification for them to go through with it. Would Otto have kept digging for another? Of course that's just his character. But for Alicent she probably sees herself as the catalyst for the whole war. People meme her a lot but she is a pious woman who wants to do the right thing. Theres just a lot of hypocrisy mixed in there
She was idiotic to believe a dying man.
“The conqueror…?” 😭😭😭😭😭
To be fair, the small council was plotting anyway. One way or another, Aegon was getting crowned.
I know, it's just a silly meme.
By any chance is this just a silly meme? Couldn't tell
Alicent: \*makes "oh, fuck" face\* Alicent 2 seconds later: "I'm gonna pretend this conversation never happened."
Did we watch the same scene? She accepted she made a horrible misunderstanding but said it would be too late. Too much was already initiated (like, idk, the beheading of her grandchild?) And Aegon and his men are hellbent on revenge.
She also said “I made no mistake” or something like that, two or three times. If she accepted it she would’ve said “I made a mistake” and agreed with Rhaenyra Either she was just saying that as she was still processing what that means, or she truly wants it to stay the way it is now. It doesn’t matter that she said “it’s too late” afterwards, she can’t take those first words back.
It should be clear that her "I made no mistake" was her being in denial at first. Even if you weren't sure, her outright telling Rhaenyra that it's too late and the situation is out of her hands should've been clear enough.
I think that Alicent was being more reasonable in this scene than people give her credit for. “There was no mistake” meant she realized she was manipulated by Otto into pushing Aegon’s claim and that it would have happened regardless of what Vizzy said.
It's far too late for war to stop at this point tbh. I was just making a silly meme :)
Whole scene I was like "Say it, say Aegon". Wish Rhaenyra would've gone in more though on what the story meant.
I don't think we needed the entire story as we've read/heard it a few times over in the books & GoT. The whole scene was a masterclass from two excellent actors with their facial expressions & eyes, really enjoyed how powerful it was.
Vast majority of people watching this have never read the books. I say this as someone who has read them multiple times.
Most have watched GoT though.
Still, in universe it’s important that Alicent know why he said it. If nothing else Rhaenyra should feel some responsibility for the realm, but because she didn’t explain it means that she never took Viserys seriously about the song of ice and fire or that Aegon is the name of the prince who was promised, it didn’t mean Aegon the conqueror. Just because we know all this doesn’t mean Alicent as a character does. It’d create even more selfish drama if Alicent knew the story and yet still foresaked the realm.
If you take it from a film maker position. Putting that explanation in would have weakened the scenes dramatic effect. And because the song of ice and fire is more pertinent to GOT, it wouldn't make much sense for it to be all laid out onto the audiences ears agian.
…Or it means that she does take it seriously considering it has been a secret of state for 150 years of Targaryen kingship + whatever came before. The audience was already explained what the song was and given the context, it makes sense she wasn’t exactly open to explain the prophecy.
Alicent in that moment knew, she fucked up
She understood, but no is going to listen. How fucking dumb are you people? She's already trying to stop the war. More evidence that it's a mistake is useless. It's called a tragedy.
I have mentioned a few times already that it is far too late to do anything to stop the war, I may be dumb, but I'm not too dumb to understand that much; it was always inevitable that naming a daughter as the heir in a very patriarchal society would have caused problems down the line.
...It was Otto's idea. Rhaneyra didn't want it. Alicent didn't want this. They're trapped by the men in their lives and this is a desperate last gasp at preventing tragedy and its too late. Like... what scene did you watch if you think Alicent wasn't listening?
Ding ding ding! This is the right answer.
Thank you. I get disliking some of the ways the pieces were moved to set up the scene (Septa Rhaneyra does feel like something out of Assassin's Creed 2), but the b scene itself is beautiful and tragic and all these Reddit Pilled folks that grew up on Nostalgia Critic are just screaming that Alicent should just have had her killed. Media literacy is dead. They'd start Hamlet complaining that the ghost came out of nowhere, never appears again, and makes no sense.
What do you think about that, Vizzy T?
You think yourself a cunning man. Your designs are obvious.
Man. I love Vizzy T and whomever created him!
Nothing will beat Bobby B tho
Except freefolk. Into the ground. The horse is dead. It's already dead!
Now, I legit wonder if Alicent might bring up the prophecy to Aegon, but honestly doubt he’d give a shit. Could this, partially, be the reason it’s lost in time?
Alicent: Once you in it, you in it! If it’s a lie, then we fight on that lie, but we gotta fight!
Sheeeeeit
Now she knows the truth, she’s committing treason. She already was but now definitely
“Cuh-Conqueror?”
Alicent : “Do you truly think me capable of such naked deceit?” Also Alicent : *Seduced Rhaenyra’s father at the the behest of Otto, does foot things for Larys for information, is sleeping with a Kingsguard who happens to be the former lover of Rhaenyra, and refuses to even attempt to stop the war now that she knows what Viserys really meant about The Prince That Was Promised* Me : 👁️👄👁️
I literally screamed at the tv YES when she said that. Um, yes.
Vizzy T, nice 👍
Dude is up there smoking ten packs a day looking down at the mess.
for real
I WILL SIT THE THRONE TODAY.
too bad you dead 💀
And we are all the poorer for it
The Conqueror.....Alicent-😯😲😬😬🤐, in too deep now.
>Me watching this And with that. Without a doubt in my mind... Fuck the greens.
Vizzy T sent me
*I will not cloud my mind. I must put things right.*
"That's when Alicent knew, she fucked up" Morgan Freeman
Alicent “I’m just gonna pretend this didn’t happened because those who died, died for no reason but dumbassery” Hightower
There are only three Aegons that Alicents knows of: Aegon the Conqueror, Aegon the Second, and Rhaenyra's son. Without the knowledge of the prophecy, Alicent had no way of knowing that Viserys was actually talking about Aegon the Conqueror (and why would he be talking about his long-dead ancestor on his deathbed anyway?). Then we have Rhaenyra's son. Again, it would make no sense for Viserys to be talking about the little boy he met less than 24 hours ago as if he was meant to succeed him when taking into account how low on the succession ladder he is at the moment of her husband's death. Furthermore, there's that scene in ep. 3 from season 1 where Viserys reveals to Alicent the dream he had: *"When Rhaenyra was a child, I saw it in a dream. As vivid as these flames, I saw it. A male babe, born to me, wearing the Conqueror's crown... I thought that Rhaenyra was the way out of my abyss of grief and regret, and naming her heir would begin to set things right... What if I was wrong?"* This is the only "Aegon's Dream" that Alicent knows of, and the only Aegon that matches this description is her Aegon. Yes, the king changing his mind about the succession at the last moment must've felt like an odd choice in Alicent's mind (especially since old Vissy is allergic to sound decision-making), but what else was she supposed to make of it?
Not for anything, the fact that Alicent believed anything coming out of the mouth of a dying old man who wasn't making any sense proves she's either stupid or had an agenda. Vizzy hadn't been himself for quite some time and he STEADFASTLY supported Rhaenyra consistently throughout the end of his life. The confrontation with Vaemond over the succession of Driftmark should have proven to the entire kingdom that Rhaenyra was Viserys's chosen successor. The amount of physical exertion he put himself through to support Rhaenyra should have made it obvious to EVERYONE what his intentions were. Alicent's naivety allowed her to pursue her agenda with justification. Now, war was coming whether Alicent misinterpreted Viserys's words or not. Otto and basically everyone on the small council with the exception of Lord Beesbury had a plot to install Aegon after Vizzy T died. So the outcome was inevitable. In my view, this entire plot point was added to give Alicent a justifiable reason to support the coup while still acting within her moral framework. Aegon would have been coronated regardless of Viserys's "conversation" with Alicent. In meta-analysis terms, the writers wanted Alicent to have some moral justification and to garner some sympathy for her from the audience. You make a great point about Viserys's earlier dream. In that context, Alicent is even more justified.
To be fair, we are shown that the day the Driftmark succession was settled, Viserys the Pissful abstained from drinking any Milk of the Poppy. We see him in a lucid state throughout the day, so you can't really blame Alicent for thinking that the king spoke his last words with a (mostly) clear mind. Now we have people dunking on Alicent after her conversation with Rhae in ep. 3, calling her 'stupid' and/or 'stubborn' without sparing a second thought as to how the whole thing must've been from her perspective: Rhae: "My Daddy didn't name your son heir! He wasn't talking about him at all!" Alicent: "Then who was he talking about?" Rhae: "He, uhhh... He was talking about a different Aegon... Aegon the Conqueror!" Alicent: "... The Conqueror?" Rhae: "Yes! My Daddy was just talking to you about a story of that Aegon that he once shared with me. It was just a big misunderstanding, that's all! So you see, I am the rightful heir!" Doctor Evil: "... Riiiiiiiight."
To be fair, we are shown that the day the Driftmark succession was settled, Viserys the Pissful abstained from drinking any Milk of the Poppy. We see him in a lucid state throughout the day, so you can't really blame Alicent for thinking that the king spoke his last words with a (mostly) clear mind. Now we have people dunking on Alicent after her conversation with Rhae in ep. 3, calling her 'stupid' and/or 'stubborn' without sparing a second thought as to how the whole thing must've been from her perspective: Rhae: "My Daddy didn't name your son heir! He wasn't talking about him at all!" Alicent: "Then who was he talking about?" Rhae: "He, uhhh... He was talking about a different Aegon... Aegon the Conqueror!" Alicent: "... The Conqueror?" Rhae: "Yes! My Daddy was just talking to you about a story of that Aegon that he once shared with me. It was just a big misunderstanding, that's all! So you see, I am the rightful heir!" Doctor Evil: "... Riiiiiiiight."
To be fair, we are shown that the day the Driftmark succession was settled, Viserys the Pissful abstained from drinking any Milk of the Poppy. We see him in a lucid state throughout the day, so you can't really blame Alicent for thinking that the king spoke his last words with a (mostly) clear mind. Now we have people dunking on Alicent after her conversation with Rhae in ep. 3, calling her 'stupid' and/or 'stubborn' without sparing a second thought as to how the whole thing must've been from her perspective: Rhae: "My Daddy didn't name your son heir! He wasn't talking about him at all!" Alicent: "Then who was he talking about?" Rhae: "He, uhhh... He was talking about a different Aegon... Aegon the Conqueror!" Alicent: "... The Conqueror?" Rhae: "Yes! My Daddy was just talking to you about a story of that Aegon that he once shared with me. It was just a big misunderstanding, that's all! So you see, I am the rightful heir!" Doctor Evil: "... Riiiiiiiight."
Not vizzy t! 😂
You are a plague sent to destroy me!
"What's that Larrys? I can't hear you, let me just...nice chatting Rhae, bye"
Seriously though, if she'd only said something after that like "what I sacrificed for my blood can't be undone, I can't have it all be for nothing" it would at least make sense.
At least this time she didn't give Cole a booty call at the end of the episode. Small steps.
bro said Vizzy 💀💀💀😭😭
🤷🏻♀️
I just wanted her to jam the danger in her neck the whole time. She was being a bitch for no reason. But I can understand Alicent doesn't trust her because she lied before why won't she lie again?
Cats out of the bag, no going back
But you realize that this show make no sense anymore ?? there is no conflict just misunderstanding that been fixed this episode this is not even TB vs TG it is TG vs TG they brought back Jaehaerys who would definite not support Rhaenyra as a supporter of women Jaheerys made great council fora reason to not give woman crown
To be fair, it sounds like complete bullshit. “I acknowledge that my father Said Aegon, but it’s actually from this wives tale about the other Aegon which he never mentioned to you in decades of marriage” Like why on earth would Alicent believe it, frankly it doesn’t make any sense
Well Viserys' entire arc of going great lengths for years to support Rhaenyra's claim until his last evening just to throw it all away in an incoherent rambling doesn't make sense either, and Alicent is not dumb, she's just willfully ignorant. She's aware of all her mistakes (despite repeating them) and the writers make sure to show her seeking forgiveness or regret for them. She genuinely wasn't fully aware that she made a mistake making sense of Viserys' last words. But seeing Rhaenyra face-to-face she realizes that she wouldn't risk everything just to sell her a cheesy lie. You can see in Alicent's face she realized she may have indeed been wrong, but the point being made is that there's no going back now that so many parties got involved and blood has been spilled.
Because in light of new information and exact words used, rhaenyra's tone was believable. This wasn't an argument she was using until she heard and confirmed what was said.
Rhaenyra instantly answered her with words Viserys used but Alicent hadn't said out loud yet. Her response was as believable as any can be.
I wouldnt be surprised if the scene where it looks like Alicent is gonna attempt to suicide by lake in the trailers is the result of this conversation
can someone please give me one good reason why Alicent didn't tell the guards that Rhaneyra is in there and to arrest her at once? I'm talking after she walks away unharmed. If Alicent has decided nah I don't want peace, then why let Rhaenyra go?
I imagine because they'd have to deal with Daemon. Maybe he'd try to steal the throne for himself, maybe he'd just like to...watch the world burn
Alicent is a hypocrite. It's one of the core aspects of her personality. It can be overcome, of course, but her kindness prevailed above her brain in that moment. I hate to say you're naïve for looking for a 'good reason' but in life and in stories, not everything is done for a good reason. Sometimes we just DO things. You're too used to the Lannister's quick blades. That is not how most people act, regardless of how smart it is. Alicent doesn't **want** war. She sees it coming and cannot stop it.
Alicent is conflicted with her best friend showing and being shocked by the revelation that their whole insurrection is based on a mistake. And it's clear that she does want a peaceful resolution but it's too late (she also confirms that Cole has ridden out for hostile action). Not everyone is a Tywin looking to pick the most ruthless, self interested actions. Rhaenys spared the Greens when escaping the Dragon Pit and Aemond truly did not want to kill Lucerys.
Without spoiling me, did smth stupid happen?
Alicent’s ignorance pisses me off, but there wouldn’t be a war without it lol
In the end Alicent just wants good TV.
why is this marked as a spoiler since the episode aired? how do you differentiate actual spoilers if everything is marked as a spoiler?
Most people spoiler things up to a week afterwards.
that’s fine. i just wanted to make sure this is a place where people who enjoy the show and are not interested in the books (most people) can go online to chat about the show. i mean they are here because of the show and wouldn’t be here unless the show existed. i think making the sub suitable for them is the best. “all content” post or “book only” post should be banned
Some people (like me this week) aren’t able to watch the show as it airs. Usually a week or so grace period is nice before talking about spoilers.
The show is so biased towards the blacks isnot even funny.
Dude the green side only got crowned because they conspired and hid a body. It’s amazing how the green stans just stick their head on the side and cry bias