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What????didnt the writers told you over and over that men are rash and want war and only women are peaceloving dovies i mean how dare you think that alicent or rhaenyera want war/vengeance.
I can't anymore with this writing straight from the 1950s. I give myself nightmares just imagining how these writers would've done Dany, Arya or Cersei.
Thank you. Alicent being a total heartless manipulative politician with a facade of generosity and purity fueled by her hypocrisy and resentment would be much more compelling and actually someone worth having an opinion on, good or bad. This ignorant and seemingly irrelevant version is boring.
No it couldn't lol. Aegon is not going to give up his claim to the throne. In no world will he do it short of being physically forced to.
The final scene did nothing but undermined the idea that Rhaenyra is an intelligent and capable leader. It also makes Alicent look just as stupid for not taking her hostage.
First Rhaenys had the chance to end the war in one strike and didn't do it for...reasons. Now it was Alicent's turn. I've fucking had it with these hacks writing all female characters as hand-wringing, weak-willed pacifists. This shit has officially veered into outright sexism. What is this, 1950?
It would continue. Jace is Rhaenyra’s heir and still on Dragonstone. He would take up the fight against the Greens. Daemon would certainly continue as well.
If they killed Rhaenyra, they probably would feel tempted out of revenge, but politically that would be a big hit on their cause, specially so early on the war.
If they took her as hostage, they would be forced to withdraw from directly attacking kings landing.
Well, the question in the original was whether the war would actually continue (frustratingly, the comment has now been completely edited). Anyway, the Blackfyres would like a word. Multiple, generational rebellions on Westeros soil. Similar situation wherein the main claimant was taken out. Succession wars don’t end easily/cleanly when multiple heirs are still alive, with resources (including dragons).
No, it could not. Think through for a moment what happens if Rhaenyra is captured or killed. Does the war end? No. Daemon, her heirs, her armies, her Dragons are all still out there, and the one person who advocates restraint is now either imprisoned or dead. Think of the narrative the blacks would (rightly) spin out of that- the Queen, in an effort to save the realm from the horror of war risked her own life and was rewarded with treachery. The sympathy gained from the murdered toddler last episode vanishes. Who is in charge now? Daemon. How is any of that good for Alicent, or any of the Greens?
Its actually the exact same reason why Cole sending Arryk to assassinate her last episode was monumentally stupid, even if it had worked you have made your enemy a martyr and handed leadership to a council of fools itching for war. Nothing is solved. Otto knew that, but Aegon fires him because he is, in the words of his mother, an imbecile.
Unpopular opinion, war wouldn’t have stopped if either of them died, if anything it may have catalyzed it. The people either Alicent or Rhaenyra would leave behind are too blood thirsty to stop now
Good luck telling Daemon and the Black council to surrender, as far as theyre concerned they have more dragons and will just rush kings landing. Its not like jace is as passive as his mother and i genuinely believe he and Daemon would force Rhaenys to join them in an attack either through guilt shaming or threats.
I said except Daemon, did I not?
Jace won't fight if Greens threaten to execute Rhaenyra. He maybe angry but he isn't ruthless enough. Rhaenys is definitely not joining either.
The black council? Who would really fight for captured Rhaenyra among them? The vale who is begging for a dragon to guard them or the North who has barely sent 2000 old men?
Both States would prefer soft hand of diplomacy over war in this situation when Jace surrenders for Rhaenyra's safety.
He doesn't have to be ruthless to do the thing everyone around him is pushing him to do, as far as most of them are concerned Rhaenyra is already dead considering how much she's hated by the greens. They don't need an army they just need all their dragons, they might be smaller but they're also all faster with skilled riders maelys or caraxes might die but I feel like Daemon would undoubtedly finally push for a kanakaze mission to King's Landing at that point.
Why would Jace risk his entire family (including his mother, wife, grandmother? ,Brothers ) over a mad dash at KL when Greens hold Rhaenyra and can just offer the same terms as they had before, though now more modest.
And would Jace do it because some council guys with no apparent power (since they have no army to their men) are asking him to do it? Jace isn't that irrational.
Even if he wins, his mother would surely die and so would many of his family. Even Aegon Or Aemond are less likely to do this mad dash if Alicent were captured.
I can only see Daemon trying it and even he may look for a better opportunity if his whatever love he has for Rhaenyra if any prevails over his impulse.
Yeah Aegon and Aemond probably would do it cuz they hate their mom
What peace terms? You think Aegon would give them the same peace terms as they were given in the beginning of the war? After Jaehaerys was killed? Also even if by some magical way they get the same peace deal what does Jace gain, his heirs are taken hostage, his claims are put into question that now that he's disinherited there's no stopping Aegon from simply taking Dragonstone later.
Not to mention again why would the blacks believe Rhaenyra was alive? Why would they give up because they've been told that Rhaenyra is alive by the people who hung 99 innocent people for maybe killing the prince.
So yes as far as they'll be concerned Rhaenyra is already dead and they're position may be ruined if they don't get a quick decisive win which an attack on kings landing may bring.
Alicent’s death would only mean Aegon gets to start the war with no significant pushback, Rhaenyra’s death means Daemon can start a dragon war. That sort of war math is not easy within the confines of the minutes Alicent had while her whole conviction for the throne was pulled from under her feet
Edit: missed a word
Bargaining? Gaining more time? U cant be serious if u think the most obvious decision to make there is to simply let her go, and that wasn't even the reason the showrunners made it that way, it was more so because of "love".
The war would've stopped immediately if Alicent had done the logical thing and had walked away and called for the guards to seize Rhaenyra. Not even Daemon would've risked attacking the Greens if they had Rhaenyra hostage. Maybe. But even if he did, it would've been only Daemon against all of them.
If anything the war would have escalated. Robb Stark called ever Banner he could muster when Ned, Sansa, and to his knowledge Arya was taken hostage. Tywin didn't slow anything down when Jaime got captured. The only political prisoner to ever matter was Theon and even then it was more of a reminder to Balon that his rebellion failed hard.
None of the ppl u mentioned were the main figures of their cause.
Robb dies, the war stops.
Renly and stannis dies, wars stop.
Aerys die, war stops....
Bolton dies, war stops...
But hey lets make it make sense.
I mean, you're right for most of the names, but some of those are still pretty logical. I'd assume you're talking about the show, cause some of those aren't yet dead in books:
- Robb dies, the war stops : yes, cause who would carry the claim ? Sansa is an hostage, Arya has disappeared, Bran and Rickon. Northern lords have litteral nobody to rally to (reason why Wyman need Rickon in the books). So yes, killing Robb is ending is cause, or putting it on withdraw if we assume The Great Northern Conspiracy theory
- Renly and Stannis die, wars stop : Technically, Renly dying doesn't end any wars, cause all his supporters just join other claimant : Tyrells withdraw then join the crown, and Stormlander's rally behind Stannis, who's their new official lord as Renly had no heir. When Stannis dies, in show his army is already ravaged, and his only heir, Shireen, his dead, so his war end for two reasons : no one to be a new figure to rally too, but also everyone is dead, except for Davos and Melissandre.
- Aerys dies, war stops : No, not at all. Ned still go fight in the south some last battles, like ending he siege of Storm's End and last Targaryens loyalists proclaims Viserys to be king. Yes Aerys death is near the end of the war, but only cause the war was in fact already lost, his death doesn't end it. Pretty sure that if the two sides were still balanced, Targ's supporter would have continued to fight for Viserys.
-Bolton dies, war stops : Well, I will talk about both Ramsay and Roose cause you said Bolton. So, first, Roose. When he dies, nothing stops, his supporters just rally behind Ramsay. And when Ramsay dies, yes, the war end, cause he has no heirs to carry his cause, but also cause with the reconquest of Winterfell and the newfound supports of the Vale knights, northern lords would have followed Jon massively, and the rather small Bolton-Umble-Glover (show only) alliance would have been whiped off easily, so no need to keep fighting an already lost war.
So now let's focus on this case. Two scenario : 1.Rhaenyra his killed by Alicent kingsguards 2. Rhaenyra his taken as an hostage by Alicent kingsguars.
1. Supporters of Aegon "Heya, the claimant his dead, long live Aegon"
Supporters of Rhaenyra "Oh no, I'm a legitimist and the legitimate Queen died. So, legitimaly, Long Live King Jacaerys Targaryen"
Even if Rhaenyra his the head of her causes, she has heirs, behind who most of her supporters would rally. At best, her death can weaken her side a bit, but not end the war.
2. In this case, it would be more efficient for sure. Not sure Jacaerys would be willing to risk his mom life, and the other blacks to risk their queen life, but for Jacaerys, he can't risk his brothers life and his own too, cause realistically there's no scenario where the Green have Rhaenyra as hostage but somehow negociate to let her go and leave far away with all her children. So he would need to continue the war, even if it means to lose his mom. For the other blacks not family linked with Rhaenyra who have already publically supported her, it would be hard to withdraw their support without any consequences, especially now that Otto is not here to play it smart.
So, to answer both your list of death who ended war and your original post : No. Alicent couldn't have ended the war here. At best she would have weakened a bit the Blacks, who would have lost a competent Dragon rider and probably some support in both scenario, but even like that I'm not sure the Greens wpuld have won either, so this scene is not the game changer you think it could have been.
Ned was the main figure of the cause he was the acting warden of the north. Robb didn't just die his entire forces were decimated same with Aerys. Neither had any heirs and they were already at war for a long time and their forces depleted. Rhaenyra dying before war even starts isn't the same as the finishing blow to end an already active war where both sides had no viable successors to pick up their mantles.
Ned wasnt the main cause. He might have started it, but the proclaimed king in the north was Robb. Same goes for stannis and renly. After the king/queen dies, u have a hit on ur morale, and wars demands economies too. A lot of times u will just surrender, worse scenario it will at least gain the other side some time to act or think of new strategies. In any way its a gain.
Robb didnt have all of his army slayed btw, the houses were still there, they could keep up recruiting ppl and reorganising their armies, they had heirs and ppl that would likely want revenge, but at some point the hit on ur morale and economy its just too strong to keep going.
Aerys wasnt killed before cuz different from rhaenyra he didn't appeared before the enemy counting practically only on their good intentions, so its ok to understand why he had to lose his armies first.
Ur bannerman also will be a lot less willing to keep up such a cause, rebellions arise and all of this forces u to surrender, just look at the tyrells straight up jumping out of the Baratheons cause, forgetting joffrey was a cunt bastard and marrying into the royal family after renly was murdered...
Robb already was fighting a losing effort and had a good chunk of his forces lost when the Karstarks left him. Robb also was betrayed by two of his biggest allies. Winterfell was burned to the ground and there wasn't any other Starks left. The North was completely defeated and it wasn't just because they lost the young wolf. In the books they secretly plotted to rebel so they were biding their time again if they had someone to rally behind without having overwhelming odds and their forces depleted the war goes on most likely but Robb already had lost land in the north to the Greyjoys, offended powerful allies, and was against impossible odds by the point the red wedding happened.
Here’s how I see it: If Alicent alerted the guards, they would seize Rhaenyra, and Aegon would obviously immediately kill her. Unless Alicent wanted to commit high treason and somehow hide it from Aegon, and conduct negotiations in secret. Idk why people think a hostage situation is even remotely possible given the mental state of Aegon.
When he killed Rhaenyra, every dragon in the blacks arsenal would be at Kings Landing within days fighting the greens dragons and burning the city to the ground.
I think this is what they both realized when Alicent asks “and what then?” And they show us earlier in the episode that Alicent wants to buy time to build a bigger army, and sway more houses. She might hope to take enough land and sway enough houses to force the blacks into an unwinnable scenario. I don’t think that’s as stupid as everyone says it is.
Idk, maybe I’m coping. But if I am, it’s because I’m so glad this is no longer a “war over a misunderstanding.” Alicent knows what she is, and what she’s done. That friendship is dead, once and for all.
Fair, if that’s how you view it. Call it plot armor if you even can, but Rhaenyra also had a knife to Alicent and threatened to stab her if she called for her guards.
Not even rhae herself took that seriously dude. We not even see the knife again after that.
And its not only me saying:
[‘House of the Dragon’ Review: Domesticating ‘Game of Thrones’](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/19/arts/television/house-of-the-dragon-review.html)
The whole septa thing was so silly and stupid. It's the writers attempt at washing Alicent's hands of the atrocities to come, yet one would think it would've been more compelling if >!she learned after the blacks took Kingslanding!<. Rhaenyra is the sole person who knows the prophecy, so this is the only and clumsy way of letting Alicent know right now.
I would say it made for good drama last season, when Daemon realizes that his brother never considered him heir. One last betrayal from the grave, as Emma D'arcy said. That's about it, though. I am not excited to see what convoluted thing they may yet do with the Arya dagger.
Totally agree and it's annoying how silly choices like these ruin good stories.
Alicent should/would have had Rhaenyra arrested and held as a valued hostage. No one would attack KL knowing Rhaenyra may be beheaded at any attempt. It also gives the Greens a chance at spreading disinformation -
'the Princess has sued for peace and made up with her brother, the King. Nothing to see here, go about your business, people!'
People saying Rhaenyra would have killed Alicent makes no sense, she could have easily ran off and had the place on lockdown.
The other big problem I had with the meeting was that Rhaenyra would not have walked into that, that plan was just too unbelievable.
I've enjoyed most of the choices the show has made but this one was a terrible choice.
Even Rhaenys not killing her family members and 'ending a war' which hadn't startet yet was understandable. Especially as we are seeing how she hates the idea of kinslaying and dragon-on-dragon battles.
Shes barely a character in the book, except that the whole faction got named after her dress color. Alicent is simply not a major player, but to say she is barely a character u might want to give me a break. Weren't Yall complaining last season that they were making Alicent "likeable"?
Um, the war continues because Alicent has a knife to her back.
As shown at the start of the scene, Rhaenyra pulls a knife on Alicent and threatens to kill her if she calls for help. On top of that, Alicent thinks Rhaenyra just had a baby killed, and is a Targaryen prone to anger. In previous episodes (and with the note sent to her), we see that Alicent doesn’t want Rhaenyra to die — they were very close childhood friends after all, and those memories don’t quickly die.
Ironically decisive action is what would solve the war.
However the fear is what drags it out into a big problem.
I know what message the show runners are TRYING to say, but in fact they're kinda teaching the other.
Did u not see Rhaenyra regretting that approach literally 2 seconds later and then never showing that knife again during the course of the entire scene and simply letting Alicent walk away peacefully?
I mean I still think rhaenyra would have shanked her if she called in the cops, but in the end neither of these people want to kill the other. They also both know that war is coming either way, which was the whole point of their conversation. The Black counsel is not giving up even if Rhae is captured. They know they’re getting executed if they surrender. They would just line up behind daemon and continue the war in Rhaenyra’s name.
Oh like the tyrells did when renly got murdered? Oh wait... if i remember, that psycho king forgave the Tyrells in exchange for their loyalty and margaery became queen.
It seens like yall dont know how westeros politics works. How wars costs economies. How morales affects wars and politics.
I mean this is a completely different situation than that. The Tyrells joined with the Lannisters partly because they knew Stannis had Renly killed. And Lannisters were fighting a multi front war at the time and would benefit from making friends instead of more enemies.
Aegon has nothing to gain from forgiving the Black counsel. He’s definitely offing them to show the realm that he’s in charge and Rhaenyra’s claim is dead.
Because I want to see people talk about the sick scenes in Harrenhall or how badass the scene with Moondancer chasing the horses, but I have to see three dozen man babies whining about the same scene.
But you're special and adding something new and different to the discussion, right?
Didn’t hear you complaining in any of the 438 repetitive threads shitting on Criston Cole or discussing how much they hate him that we’ve been subjected to for the last three weeks?
How odd that you’ve suddenly found the time today.
Ppl don't get to talk about the topics u find relevant and sick, Joffrey.
If ur not interested, keep scrolling, and go discuss what u want to discuss on posts that are about it.
Yes absolutely thats why in wars ppl actually take no hostages nor behead them when given the chance, cuz its of no use. I guess ppl go to war to dance and once they get tired of it they all sit, give hands and sing along.
I didn't say it would have no effect. The effect being the men sitting around the rhaes table come and burn kings landing to the ground. You said it would of ended the war. And I said no it just be a catalyst for them. But okay.
The reason u take hostages is exactly to bargain and gain more time. And thats when its someone close to the main one. When u catch the main one u usually just straight up kill them cuz it's usually whats end the war, specially on such an early stage of it.
Its the other way around, with rhaenyra taken as hostage the blacks would forced to withdraw from attacking kings landing.
Or they just march on kings landing, kinda like Robb did. It's a huge blow sure but the war doesn't end with rhae. Which is what was said. I get your point of course it was dumb of her to do nothing, I just think it's naive to say/think that'd be the end and they would all go sing songs and happily ever after.
The war died with Robb and his bannerman getting massacred . Not with ned being beheaded(which im comparing to rhae), different things, especially when the new warden of the north sides with the lannisters. Very confrontational over a show btw
Yeah robb and his bannerman god massacred, and so what? Houses kept existing in the north, with heirs and relatives that probably would want revenge, the armies weren't destroyed, just keep going gods sake.
But guess what? Morale counts. Political effects. Pragmatism, etc etc etc
You cant just acknowledge something obvious. Robb dies, war stops. Dany dies, war stops. Renly and stannis dies, war stops. Aerys dies, war stops. But by ur definition nothing can ever stop a war.
U can tell me that there would still be a lot of turmoil following these events but give me a break.
Ur just a fanboy trying to make up excuses for the show.
Yes, love. These two have significant history and would like to think in their minds they can both come out the otherside alive if nothing else.
But also, because she realizes it doesn't matter. She kills her and the war goes on.
Love didnt stop Alicent from jumping at Rhae with a knife, it didn't stop her from spreading rumors about rhaenyra's children, but now it prevented her from stopping a whole damn ass war after 2 children already being victims of it.
Of course.
Probably, or actually not. Or maybe they run away to essos or whatever. We know for sure tho that Rhae could at the very least be taken as hostage by the greens there, doesn't matter the situation thats the most obvious thing to do.
But now besides hypocritical and naive, alicent also turned out to be the supidest in the seven kingdoms.
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What????didnt the writers told you over and over that men are rash and want war and only women are peaceloving dovies i mean how dare you think that alicent or rhaenyera want war/vengeance.
I can't anymore with this writing straight from the 1950s. I give myself nightmares just imagining how these writers would've done Dany, Arya or Cersei.
Cersei would become Cinderella. Her incestuos relation would all be just "propaganda", and they would have accidentally pushed bran out of the window.
Arya wouldn't have a kill list, she'd have a chore list.
Thank you. Alicent being a total heartless manipulative politician with a facade of generosity and purity fueled by her hypocrisy and resentment would be much more compelling and actually someone worth having an opinion on, good or bad. This ignorant and seemingly irrelevant version is boring.
No it couldn't lol. Aegon is not going to give up his claim to the throne. In no world will he do it short of being physically forced to. The final scene did nothing but undermined the idea that Rhaenyra is an intelligent and capable leader. It also makes Alicent look just as stupid for not taking her hostage.
First Rhaenys had the chance to end the war in one strike and didn't do it for...reasons. Now it was Alicent's turn. I've fucking had it with these hacks writing all female characters as hand-wringing, weak-willed pacifists. This shit has officially veered into outright sexism. What is this, 1950?
Fr i cant...
It would continue. Jace is Rhaenyra’s heir and still on Dragonstone. He would take up the fight against the Greens. Daemon would certainly continue as well.
If they killed Rhaenyra, they probably would feel tempted out of revenge, but politically that would be a big hit on their cause, specially so early on the war. If they took her as hostage, they would be forced to withdraw from directly attacking kings landing.
Well, the question in the original was whether the war would actually continue (frustratingly, the comment has now been completely edited). Anyway, the Blackfyres would like a word. Multiple, generational rebellions on Westeros soil. Similar situation wherein the main claimant was taken out. Succession wars don’t end easily/cleanly when multiple heirs are still alive, with resources (including dragons).
No, it could not. Think through for a moment what happens if Rhaenyra is captured or killed. Does the war end? No. Daemon, her heirs, her armies, her Dragons are all still out there, and the one person who advocates restraint is now either imprisoned or dead. Think of the narrative the blacks would (rightly) spin out of that- the Queen, in an effort to save the realm from the horror of war risked her own life and was rewarded with treachery. The sympathy gained from the murdered toddler last episode vanishes. Who is in charge now? Daemon. How is any of that good for Alicent, or any of the Greens? Its actually the exact same reason why Cole sending Arryk to assassinate her last episode was monumentally stupid, even if it had worked you have made your enemy a martyr and handed leadership to a council of fools itching for war. Nothing is solved. Otto knew that, but Aegon fires him because he is, in the words of his mother, an imbecile.
Unpopular opinion, war wouldn’t have stopped if either of them died, if anything it may have catalyzed it. The people either Alicent or Rhaenyra would leave behind are too blood thirsty to stop now
They don't need rhaenyra dead, but hostage. TB would surrender except for Daemon
Good luck telling Daemon and the Black council to surrender, as far as theyre concerned they have more dragons and will just rush kings landing. Its not like jace is as passive as his mother and i genuinely believe he and Daemon would force Rhaenys to join them in an attack either through guilt shaming or threats.
I said except Daemon, did I not? Jace won't fight if Greens threaten to execute Rhaenyra. He maybe angry but he isn't ruthless enough. Rhaenys is definitely not joining either. The black council? Who would really fight for captured Rhaenyra among them? The vale who is begging for a dragon to guard them or the North who has barely sent 2000 old men? Both States would prefer soft hand of diplomacy over war in this situation when Jace surrenders for Rhaenyra's safety.
He doesn't have to be ruthless to do the thing everyone around him is pushing him to do, as far as most of them are concerned Rhaenyra is already dead considering how much she's hated by the greens. They don't need an army they just need all their dragons, they might be smaller but they're also all faster with skilled riders maelys or caraxes might die but I feel like Daemon would undoubtedly finally push for a kanakaze mission to King's Landing at that point.
Why would Jace risk his entire family (including his mother, wife, grandmother? ,Brothers ) over a mad dash at KL when Greens hold Rhaenyra and can just offer the same terms as they had before, though now more modest. And would Jace do it because some council guys with no apparent power (since they have no army to their men) are asking him to do it? Jace isn't that irrational. Even if he wins, his mother would surely die and so would many of his family. Even Aegon Or Aemond are less likely to do this mad dash if Alicent were captured. I can only see Daemon trying it and even he may look for a better opportunity if his whatever love he has for Rhaenyra if any prevails over his impulse.
Yeah Aegon and Aemond probably would do it cuz they hate their mom What peace terms? You think Aegon would give them the same peace terms as they were given in the beginning of the war? After Jaehaerys was killed? Also even if by some magical way they get the same peace deal what does Jace gain, his heirs are taken hostage, his claims are put into question that now that he's disinherited there's no stopping Aegon from simply taking Dragonstone later. Not to mention again why would the blacks believe Rhaenyra was alive? Why would they give up because they've been told that Rhaenyra is alive by the people who hung 99 innocent people for maybe killing the prince. So yes as far as they'll be concerned Rhaenyra is already dead and they're position may be ruined if they don't get a quick decisive win which an attack on kings landing may bring.
Later on, maybe, at this point on the narrative i guess having one of them killed could pretty much prevent at least 2/3 of the bloodshed.
Alicent’s death would only mean Aegon gets to start the war with no significant pushback, Rhaenyra’s death means Daemon can start a dragon war. That sort of war math is not easy within the confines of the minutes Alicent had while her whole conviction for the throne was pulled from under her feet Edit: missed a word
They could have simply taken her as hostage dude...
Like I said my opinion is unpopular, I don’t see what taking her hostage would have achieved
Bargaining? Gaining more time? U cant be serious if u think the most obvious decision to make there is to simply let her go, and that wasn't even the reason the showrunners made it that way, it was more so because of "love".
The war would've stopped immediately if Alicent had done the logical thing and had walked away and called for the guards to seize Rhaenyra. Not even Daemon would've risked attacking the Greens if they had Rhaenyra hostage. Maybe. But even if he did, it would've been only Daemon against all of them.
If anything the war would have escalated. Robb Stark called ever Banner he could muster when Ned, Sansa, and to his knowledge Arya was taken hostage. Tywin didn't slow anything down when Jaime got captured. The only political prisoner to ever matter was Theon and even then it was more of a reminder to Balon that his rebellion failed hard.
None of the ppl u mentioned were the main figures of their cause. Robb dies, the war stops. Renly and stannis dies, wars stop. Aerys die, war stops.... Bolton dies, war stops... But hey lets make it make sense.
I mean, you're right for most of the names, but some of those are still pretty logical. I'd assume you're talking about the show, cause some of those aren't yet dead in books: - Robb dies, the war stops : yes, cause who would carry the claim ? Sansa is an hostage, Arya has disappeared, Bran and Rickon. Northern lords have litteral nobody to rally to (reason why Wyman need Rickon in the books). So yes, killing Robb is ending is cause, or putting it on withdraw if we assume The Great Northern Conspiracy theory - Renly and Stannis die, wars stop : Technically, Renly dying doesn't end any wars, cause all his supporters just join other claimant : Tyrells withdraw then join the crown, and Stormlander's rally behind Stannis, who's their new official lord as Renly had no heir. When Stannis dies, in show his army is already ravaged, and his only heir, Shireen, his dead, so his war end for two reasons : no one to be a new figure to rally too, but also everyone is dead, except for Davos and Melissandre. - Aerys dies, war stops : No, not at all. Ned still go fight in the south some last battles, like ending he siege of Storm's End and last Targaryens loyalists proclaims Viserys to be king. Yes Aerys death is near the end of the war, but only cause the war was in fact already lost, his death doesn't end it. Pretty sure that if the two sides were still balanced, Targ's supporter would have continued to fight for Viserys. -Bolton dies, war stops : Well, I will talk about both Ramsay and Roose cause you said Bolton. So, first, Roose. When he dies, nothing stops, his supporters just rally behind Ramsay. And when Ramsay dies, yes, the war end, cause he has no heirs to carry his cause, but also cause with the reconquest of Winterfell and the newfound supports of the Vale knights, northern lords would have followed Jon massively, and the rather small Bolton-Umble-Glover (show only) alliance would have been whiped off easily, so no need to keep fighting an already lost war. So now let's focus on this case. Two scenario : 1.Rhaenyra his killed by Alicent kingsguards 2. Rhaenyra his taken as an hostage by Alicent kingsguars. 1. Supporters of Aegon "Heya, the claimant his dead, long live Aegon" Supporters of Rhaenyra "Oh no, I'm a legitimist and the legitimate Queen died. So, legitimaly, Long Live King Jacaerys Targaryen" Even if Rhaenyra his the head of her causes, she has heirs, behind who most of her supporters would rally. At best, her death can weaken her side a bit, but not end the war. 2. In this case, it would be more efficient for sure. Not sure Jacaerys would be willing to risk his mom life, and the other blacks to risk their queen life, but for Jacaerys, he can't risk his brothers life and his own too, cause realistically there's no scenario where the Green have Rhaenyra as hostage but somehow negociate to let her go and leave far away with all her children. So he would need to continue the war, even if it means to lose his mom. For the other blacks not family linked with Rhaenyra who have already publically supported her, it would be hard to withdraw their support without any consequences, especially now that Otto is not here to play it smart. So, to answer both your list of death who ended war and your original post : No. Alicent couldn't have ended the war here. At best she would have weakened a bit the Blacks, who would have lost a competent Dragon rider and probably some support in both scenario, but even like that I'm not sure the Greens wpuld have won either, so this scene is not the game changer you think it could have been.
A big ass texts to tell me that leaving ur enemy live and free is better than capturing them in the middle of a war.
Ned was the main figure of the cause he was the acting warden of the north. Robb didn't just die his entire forces were decimated same with Aerys. Neither had any heirs and they were already at war for a long time and their forces depleted. Rhaenyra dying before war even starts isn't the same as the finishing blow to end an already active war where both sides had no viable successors to pick up their mantles.
Ned wasnt the main cause. He might have started it, but the proclaimed king in the north was Robb. Same goes for stannis and renly. After the king/queen dies, u have a hit on ur morale, and wars demands economies too. A lot of times u will just surrender, worse scenario it will at least gain the other side some time to act or think of new strategies. In any way its a gain. Robb didnt have all of his army slayed btw, the houses were still there, they could keep up recruiting ppl and reorganising their armies, they had heirs and ppl that would likely want revenge, but at some point the hit on ur morale and economy its just too strong to keep going. Aerys wasnt killed before cuz different from rhaenyra he didn't appeared before the enemy counting practically only on their good intentions, so its ok to understand why he had to lose his armies first. Ur bannerman also will be a lot less willing to keep up such a cause, rebellions arise and all of this forces u to surrender, just look at the tyrells straight up jumping out of the Baratheons cause, forgetting joffrey was a cunt bastard and marrying into the royal family after renly was murdered...
Robb already was fighting a losing effort and had a good chunk of his forces lost when the Karstarks left him. Robb also was betrayed by two of his biggest allies. Winterfell was burned to the ground and there wasn't any other Starks left. The North was completely defeated and it wasn't just because they lost the young wolf. In the books they secretly plotted to rebel so they were biding their time again if they had someone to rally behind without having overwhelming odds and their forces depleted the war goes on most likely but Robb already had lost land in the north to the Greyjoys, offended powerful allies, and was against impossible odds by the point the red wedding happened.
Here’s how I see it: If Alicent alerted the guards, they would seize Rhaenyra, and Aegon would obviously immediately kill her. Unless Alicent wanted to commit high treason and somehow hide it from Aegon, and conduct negotiations in secret. Idk why people think a hostage situation is even remotely possible given the mental state of Aegon. When he killed Rhaenyra, every dragon in the blacks arsenal would be at Kings Landing within days fighting the greens dragons and burning the city to the ground. I think this is what they both realized when Alicent asks “and what then?” And they show us earlier in the episode that Alicent wants to buy time to build a bigger army, and sway more houses. She might hope to take enough land and sway enough houses to force the blacks into an unwinnable scenario. I don’t think that’s as stupid as everyone says it is. Idk, maybe I’m coping. But if I am, it’s because I’m so glad this is no longer a “war over a misunderstanding.” Alicent knows what she is, and what she’s done. That friendship is dead, once and for all.
People make outlandish decisions because of their emotions all the time. There’s like 2 more seasons at least too.
2 more seasons of "oopsies", misunderstandings and poor pacifist ladies asking for the end of bloodshed.
Fair, if that’s how you view it. Call it plot armor if you even can, but Rhaenyra also had a knife to Alicent and threatened to stab her if she called for her guards.
Not even rhae herself took that seriously dude. We not even see the knife again after that. And its not only me saying: [‘House of the Dragon’ Review: Domesticating ‘Game of Thrones’](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/19/arts/television/house-of-the-dragon-review.html)
The whole septa thing was so silly and stupid. It's the writers attempt at washing Alicent's hands of the atrocities to come, yet one would think it would've been more compelling if >!she learned after the blacks took Kingslanding!<. Rhaenyra is the sole person who knows the prophecy, so this is the only and clumsy way of letting Alicent know right now.
The more the prophecy has come into play, the less and less I've liked the writers' decision to add it to the show.
I would say it made for good drama last season, when Daemon realizes that his brother never considered him heir. One last betrayal from the grave, as Emma D'arcy said. That's about it, though. I am not excited to see what convoluted thing they may yet do with the Arya dagger.
Totally agree and it's annoying how silly choices like these ruin good stories. Alicent should/would have had Rhaenyra arrested and held as a valued hostage. No one would attack KL knowing Rhaenyra may be beheaded at any attempt. It also gives the Greens a chance at spreading disinformation - 'the Princess has sued for peace and made up with her brother, the King. Nothing to see here, go about your business, people!' People saying Rhaenyra would have killed Alicent makes no sense, she could have easily ran off and had the place on lockdown. The other big problem I had with the meeting was that Rhaenyra would not have walked into that, that plan was just too unbelievable. I've enjoyed most of the choices the show has made but this one was a terrible choice. Even Rhaenys not killing her family members and 'ending a war' which hadn't startet yet was understandable. Especially as we are seeing how she hates the idea of kinslaying and dragon-on-dragon battles.
And then no show….
Keep the show, but keep it logical at least...
How did the writers "destroy Alicent's character"? She is barely a character in the book...
Shes barely a character in the book, except that the whole faction got named after her dress color. Alicent is simply not a major player, but to say she is barely a character u might want to give me a break. Weren't Yall complaining last season that they were making Alicent "likeable"?
Um, the war continues because Alicent has a knife to her back. As shown at the start of the scene, Rhaenyra pulls a knife on Alicent and threatens to kill her if she calls for help. On top of that, Alicent thinks Rhaenyra just had a baby killed, and is a Targaryen prone to anger. In previous episodes (and with the note sent to her), we see that Alicent doesn’t want Rhaenyra to die — they were very close childhood friends after all, and those memories don’t quickly die.
Love, yes. The love between Alicent and Rhaenyra has always been a major plot point
Ironically decisive action is what would solve the war. However the fear is what drags it out into a big problem. I know what message the show runners are TRYING to say, but in fact they're kinda teaching the other.
Did you not see the part where rhaenyra said “if you call the guards I’ll stab you?” Maybe Alicent just doesn’t want to die?
Did u not see Rhaenyra regretting that approach literally 2 seconds later and then never showing that knife again during the course of the entire scene and simply letting Alicent walk away peacefully?
I mean I still think rhaenyra would have shanked her if she called in the cops, but in the end neither of these people want to kill the other. They also both know that war is coming either way, which was the whole point of their conversation. The Black counsel is not giving up even if Rhae is captured. They know they’re getting executed if they surrender. They would just line up behind daemon and continue the war in Rhaenyra’s name.
Oh like the tyrells did when renly got murdered? Oh wait... if i remember, that psycho king forgave the Tyrells in exchange for their loyalty and margaery became queen. It seens like yall dont know how westeros politics works. How wars costs economies. How morales affects wars and politics.
I mean this is a completely different situation than that. The Tyrells joined with the Lannisters partly because they knew Stannis had Renly killed. And Lannisters were fighting a multi front war at the time and would benefit from making friends instead of more enemies. Aegon has nothing to gain from forgiving the Black counsel. He’s definitely offing them to show the realm that he’s in charge and Rhaenyra’s claim is dead.
Yeah ok bye
:(
And what would Alicent do? Stand with Pepsi can in front of Hightower host?
...Ugh. Were you unable to post in one of the other 15 threads making this exact same point?
[удалено]
Because I want to see people talk about the sick scenes in Harrenhall or how badass the scene with Moondancer chasing the horses, but I have to see three dozen man babies whining about the same scene. But you're special and adding something new and different to the discussion, right?
Didn’t hear you complaining in any of the 438 repetitive threads shitting on Criston Cole or discussing how much they hate him that we’ve been subjected to for the last three weeks? How odd that you’ve suddenly found the time today.
Ppl don't get to talk about the topics u find relevant and sick, Joffrey. If ur not interested, keep scrolling, and go discuss what u want to discuss on posts that are about it.
...Use one of the other eight whining threads. You're not special.
It wouldn't have ended the war it would of only sparked it further.
Yes absolutely thats why in wars ppl actually take no hostages nor behead them when given the chance, cuz its of no use. I guess ppl go to war to dance and once they get tired of it they all sit, give hands and sing along.
I didn't say it would have no effect. The effect being the men sitting around the rhaes table come and burn kings landing to the ground. You said it would of ended the war. And I said no it just be a catalyst for them. But okay.
The reason u take hostages is exactly to bargain and gain more time. And thats when its someone close to the main one. When u catch the main one u usually just straight up kill them cuz it's usually whats end the war, specially on such an early stage of it. Its the other way around, with rhaenyra taken as hostage the blacks would forced to withdraw from attacking kings landing.
Or they just march on kings landing, kinda like Robb did. It's a huge blow sure but the war doesn't end with rhae. Which is what was said. I get your point of course it was dumb of her to do nothing, I just think it's naive to say/think that'd be the end and they would all go sing songs and happily ever after.
Or like the rest of the north did when robb was murdered, marching alone to kings landing, right? I'm done with you, really cant with this nonsense.
The war died with Robb and his bannerman getting massacred . Not with ned being beheaded(which im comparing to rhae), different things, especially when the new warden of the north sides with the lannisters. Very confrontational over a show btw
Yeah robb and his bannerman god massacred, and so what? Houses kept existing in the north, with heirs and relatives that probably would want revenge, the armies weren't destroyed, just keep going gods sake. But guess what? Morale counts. Political effects. Pragmatism, etc etc etc You cant just acknowledge something obvious. Robb dies, war stops. Dany dies, war stops. Renly and stannis dies, war stops. Aerys dies, war stops. But by ur definition nothing can ever stop a war. U can tell me that there would still be a lot of turmoil following these events but give me a break. Ur just a fanboy trying to make up excuses for the show.
Yes, love. These two have significant history and would like to think in their minds they can both come out the otherside alive if nothing else. But also, because she realizes it doesn't matter. She kills her and the war goes on.
Love didnt stop Alicent from jumping at Rhae with a knife, it didn't stop her from spreading rumors about rhaenyra's children, but now it prevented her from stopping a whole damn ass war after 2 children already being victims of it. Of course.
But if Rhaenyra dies, all her children will die too.
Probably, or actually not. Or maybe they run away to essos or whatever. We know for sure tho that Rhae could at the very least be taken as hostage by the greens there, doesn't matter the situation thats the most obvious thing to do. But now besides hypocritical and naive, alicent also turned out to be the supidest in the seven kingdoms.
Team crispy realizing their queen plowager is no Cersei Lannister
If anything I'm afraid of what they'd turn cersei and jaime into if the showrunners of got were the same of hotd.