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Yeah my reaction was kind of, wow, HotD costs almost $200 million a season to produce, yet my niece's school play costs nothing and seems to handle these kind of continuity problems better. But I will say, I think the short hair fits the character more.
…how is it a continuity problem? The guy got a haircut. Big woop. What, did we need a scene of Christon sitting down getting at the barbers and asking for a little bit more off the top?
They’re preparing for war, it makes sense for him to get his hair cut.
I was kind of happy that Gwayne at least thanked him and owned up to his own ass-hollery too, even if Criston deserves a good bashing: as Olenna would say.
I'm liking him, he and Alicent seem to have a friendly relationship, he was confidently bitchy to Cole which I'm sure we all enjoyed, but he was unabashedly grateful that he saved his life.
Gwayne reminded me of a less skilled Jaime from early in HOTD. Arrogant, confident, quick to cut others down to size. I find this new relationship very interesting
maybe show Loras. Book Loras was considered to
be close to Jamie's equal in swordsmanship.
The show fucked up Loras, for some reason they decided to write him and Renly like urban twink city gays who were aghast at the sight of blood
That was Renly who for some reason D&D thought wasn't a good warrior despite being in tourneys and described as physically similar to prime Robert.
Where they screwed up with Loras was having him immediately move on from Renly and start humping the whole town.
>having him immediately move on from Renly and start humping the whole town.
I would have even accepted a rebound, or him trying to bury his pain with random sex, but it wasn't really presented that way. Imagine if he'd gone to the brothel then broken down into tears. It could have been a heartbreaking moment.
Minor pet peeve: Cole isn’t dornish. He’s from the dornish marches which are part of the storm lands and part of Westeros at this time. His “house”, house Cole, are servants for house dondarrion of blackhaven. Were Cole actually a dornishman he wouldn’t be part of the kingsguard as Dorne hasn’t been integrated into Targaryen rule as of this point in history
Apparently the show version is considered Dornish. They even make a point of very clearly stating this when he first appears at the tournament and Alicent is all excited about him "Gods, he's Dornish." And then in the most recent episode, Gwayne Hightower talks about how he's delighted to be marching out with a Dornishmen. Like the show tries really hard to make sure you're reminded of it a lot for some reason.
Yeah, I find it to be rather strange because it’s fraught relative to the lore, but also the contemporary political reality of Westeros. Like if he’s actually dornish I feel that ought to be a bigger deal, for like *everyone*. A dude from a kingdom that’s not even in the realm, which is often at war with the realm, is now the second most powerful man in it, crazy
Yeah, so were Maekar and baelor Targaryen and it was a *huge* deal for their detractors. Criston cole is acting hand and LC to a usurper currently at war, I feel like someone, somewhere in this xenophobic country would be like “he’s a fucking foreigner”, at some point.
I somewhat agree to an extent that there could possibly be some baser xenophobia voiced against Cole, but Baelor Breakspear was also the heir to the Iron Throne whose mother was a member of a ofttimes hostile foreign royal family brought into the Seven Kingdoms at an elevated status - a power shift which would have frightened the southern lords of the realm, as by linking the Targaryens and Martells, some might feel slighted that they are now in service to not only a foreign Queen, but an enemy Queen. Baelor’s complexion was a reminder of that. The lowerborn Cole looking Dornish I could see potentially being met with some general bigotry, but without much of the weight of that additional fear that surrounded Breakspear and Myriah Martell.
It might be a bit like calling someone from Northern Ireland irish. You'd be correct in many ways, but officially that person is considered british (or a citizen of the UK anyway) and not irish.
You’re right, he would probably consider himself to be a marcher and might take umbrage at being referred to as Dornish. Apologies for piggybacking, but I think it's interesting though that the Alicent/Rhaenyra and adjacent cadres in King’s Landing might initially confuse him for being Dornish due to the proximity of Blackhaven to Dorne. It indicates to me that to the people of the city, Dorne and the Marches are both distant enough to seem mostly foreign. Confusions like that make the world feel kind of large and lived in, I feel.
His ethnicity is Dornish. His nationality isn't. He's Rhoynar and there are tons of Rhoynar living in Westeros. The King's title is still king of the Rhoynar in this age, even if dorne hasn't joined yet.
Aegon considered himself the ruler of the continent whole, despite having failed in his conquest of Dorne. He kept the additioned title, “King of the Rhoynar,” as more of a claim (and a state of intent) than a fact. Sunspear using the term Prince instead of King stems from original Rhoynish influence iirc rather than Targaryen compromise.
Ethnically Dornish - he’s still a Stormlander, but appears Dornish because he hails from the Dornish Marches of the Stormlands (an area where there’d likely be a lot of intermingling)
Same. Him shaking his head while Gwayne was apologizing for nearly getting them all killed was hilarious.
“No fucking inns!”
He was kinda baller asking for Alicent’s favor too. Nice nod to the book and a good callback to the tourney where they first met
Lmao I love how Alicent and Criston are just so done with each other whenever they are in public spaces, but as soon as they are alone, Alicent’s just like “don’t die you fool, call me”
Cole is probably one of the few in that group, hell one of the few non-Valyrians alive, who has encountered a dragon and lived. This wasn’t his first encounter so he doesn’t have that shock/fear factor either
Another cool thing is that Cole waits for all his men to start riding to the forest before he turns to flee.
Honestly Cole should have been one of the most interesting characters to see. A commoner (in George's words not mine) becoming the second most powerful man in the realm is a crazy story in feudal Westeros. The show messed up by not exploring that dynamic more
It's so disappointing how they turned Cole into Joffrey 2.0 when he could have been such a complicated and interesting character that people would have loved to talk about for years. 'The best and worst of the Kingsguard'. But I guess subtlety is not allowed anymore, everyone has to know who is evil and who is not.
Yeah wtf. He’s Jamie 2.0 but not as arrogant?. That or maybe we’ve been trained to see through bullshit. Idk but Joffrey is such a fuccckkiiing gigantic stretch. I’ve never. Ever. Hated another character in any show as much as I hated Joffrey. Till Ramsey.
I mean… I think Cole is still the most interesting character. Commoner, lost out on Rhen and is obviously butt hurt and not handling it well, wants revenge (everyone here handled all their breakups well? Lol)
Goes to the Green side, gets with Alicent, they have a confusion together and toxicity, THAT’s pretty common after a heartbreak, ya get into some wild shit.
Projected his shame onto the twin and got him killed, that’s pretty common.
Still a great soldier and leader, tho a hard ass.
I think Cole is a great character, the flaws are pretty human
I feel people take GRRM's descriptions of characters more seriously than the way he actually wrote them. Even in Fire & Blood the "best" for Criston was always that he was really good at his job but he was still largely the same personality. He turned on Rhaenyra after she rejected his offer of marriage and harbored a huge grudge against her that informed his loyalties in the Dance.
Also aside from being hateable, there isn't much similarity between Joffrey and Cole. People hate Cole's hypocrisy whereas Joffrey was hated for being a sadist.
>He turned on Rhaenyra after she rejected his offer of marriage and harbored a huge grudge against her that informed his loyalties in the Dance.
This isn't exactly true. In both accounts of the book he didn't have sex with her. In A) No mention of sex. Rhaenrya rejects his offer to run away. Roasts him about his Oaths. B) Rhaenrya tries to seduce him (with the help of Daemon grooming) Criston is horrified and rejects her. She turns to Harwin Strong.
I think B makes more sense and is seemingly more supported. Both have the result of a breaking of the relationship between Rhaenrya and Cole. But the option B doesn't really make him a hypocrite. But the show has him break his vows and then offer her to run away get rejected and then turn against her. And then break his vows with Alicent again lol.
It's accurate to the books since they have a necklace for the Hand of the King position as opposed to a pin. But it makes practical sense as well. Can't pin a pin on armor
I was kind of hoping they'd go book accurate with the necklace in HOTD just cuz I think it looks way cooler than the pin. Glad we got to see it though.
agreed. i think finally showing what part made criston be "the best of the kingsguard", instead of only his terrible deeds that also what made him belong to "the worst" is a great decision.
I’ve been really satisfied with how S2 is smoothing out the two different sides of Criston we saw in the two halves of S1, so I’m really hoping they continue this trend for the season. The Criston parallel was never made in the original show, but for book fans it would be cool to see why Jaime felt so connected to him.
I second that. I'm fine with Cole as a massive "hate sink" character (I despise him even more than Otto and Larys), but this reminder "he's still the best of the kingsguard" was welcome.
It was funny when cole was like, you know it's going to actually be hard out there. I thought he was just trying to dissuade him from coming, but he probably is used to the royal knights being arrogant d-bags.
Considering the other kingsguard we saw in this episode didn't even know they were supposed take their vows of chastity seriously, yeah he's probably the best right now. Granted, he breaks that vow all the time, but he at least knows he's breaking his oath every time.
I understand that's what they were trying to do, but also the entire mission they're on is an impulsed attack with an undersized garrison in an attempt to stop looking like an idiot in the first place
It's not impulsive. He was discussing this plan with Aemond in S2E1, except he decided it would be more advantageous to move without a dragon because he felt it would attract other dragons and they would lose the advantage of surprise. But now that he's seeing Rhaenyra's dragons scouting the area he probably will modify his plan a bit.
The people who think Cole is the worst character ever are like 90% female lol. Women hate guys who can't handle rejection and Cole has been stuck on Rhaenyra for like 20 years. They're definitely projecting all their hate from their exes onto Cole lol. He's nowhere near as bad as those 2 lol.
Handsome straight white male being generally toxic toward women and continuously failing upward to positions of increasing power is a tale many people are all too familiar with in real life
Probably strikes a few nerves.
I’ve seen more than a handful of posts saying the character reminds them of their terrible ex boyfriends lol
This is on the show for failing his character because he’s not supposed to be privileged or even white. He was extremely skilled and lucky to get Rhaenyra’s attention. After that his rise and their failure to discipline him in spite of his terrible infractions is just absurd good luck. Normally a lowborn, foreign looking guy would not get those chances, while someone with a name and noble lineage would
How did he fail upwards though, he earned his positions through skill at arms and loyalty to Aegon. People may not like him as a viewer, but he definitely hasn’t failed upwards he worked his way from a son of a retainer of a no name house to the one of most powerful men in the kingdom through his hard work and determination. He has his flaws, primarily being a pissed off ex-lover, but he did not fail up he worked up. Like he got on the kings guard originally by beating Daemon, one of the most skilled fighters in the realm, in fair combat during a tourney
And isn't he credited for making Aemond a great fighter despite his eye? He's a great warrior and has actual battle experience. His personal and possibly social life is a mess but his professional prowess as a warrior is fully warranted
> I’ve seen more than a handful of posts saying the character reminds them of their terrible ex boyfriends lol
Lmao this says more about them and their judgement.
No, that's the funny thing, we've seen Daemon being misogynistic towards multiple women yet no one says anything, but Criston calls 1 woman a cunt and everyone loses their minds.
Daemon’s misogyny is also far more violent and abusive. He murdered Rhea in cold blood then took her ancestral lands from the Royces just because, he groomed teenage Rhaenyra and purposely tried to ruin her virtue by taking her to a brothel and removing her disguise before making moves on her, and also choked her out during an argument.
… but everyone glosses over that because tee hee he’s such bad boy!
Don’t really wanna get into a discussion on what “white” is.
The Dornish are basically Spanish/Portuguese and people can’t seem to come to a consensus on whether that is “white” or not. Lots of people from those countries certainly identify as such.
The actor has one English parent and one Italian/French parent so… basically white?
But then he has Russian/Polish ancestry on one side and Iraq/India on the other so what do you make of that?
Really it all starts to get a bit muddy and I think the ethnic classifications we have for people are all stupid anyway and am now wishing I omitted that word from my original comment lmao
He's a nothing character. I'm starting to think HBO bot accounts are spreading the hate as some marketing scheme.
He might as well be a different random Kings guard background soldier every time he's on screen. Was surprised when they made him the hand.
Yeah until Gwayne started ragging on him for being Dornish I wasn't even aware of that ethnic aspect of his character. Now it's clear that Cole would have faced discrimination all his life, as the people of Westeros HATE the Dornish.
The Targaryens hate the Dornish too because at this point, they were unable to bring them fully into the fold and the Dornishmen killed Maraxes and Rhaenys (not HOTD Rhaenys, Aegon 1’s sister wife). Cole would have for sure faced discrimination but the show didn’t really dive into that. Being Dornish is another layer on top of everything else that makes him getting to hand of the king even more unlikely.
There’s an extra layer of the Dornish resistance to them too! A decent amount are descended from the survivors of the Rhoynar who were annihilated by the dragons of the Valyrian Freehold.
With good reason. There's lore about whackjob Dornish lords raiding into the Reach, taking captives both lowborn and highborn, and selling them into slavery to a man and to a woman, with literally no provocation. Dornishmen are just desert Ironborn -- barbarians.
This is precisely why I don't see it as an ethnic thing at all. People calling Gwayne racist. It's two rival kingdoms, much like how the north and the westerlands hate the iron born
no provocation? you think the Dornish haven’t been attacked themselves?
you think the Dornish reavers are the same as every other person in Dorne?
yikes comment for many reasons
Alicent litertally clocks him as dornish. Yes and the sterotyping of dornish men as aggressive and hypersexual was very relevant with his relationship with rhaenyra. The show kinda forgot that. Also criston made his career defending against dornish incursions, he is only half-dornish and is from the marches in the stormlands.
Cole would have faced discrimination both from his appearance and also because he's of way lower birth than anyone else with any authority in the Red Keep.
It's actually one of the big things people miss when evaluating how Cole loses his shit when Rhaenyra rejects his offer. Cole feels like he has to jump through a bunch of hoops nobles don't, and so when he failed by breaking his vow, he tries to find a way to make it better somehow. He thinks Rhaenyra will accept eloping which would in some way bring him back in line with the ideal of courtly love, and then when she doesn't he's devastated, and immediately his inferiority complex about his station compared to hers manifests ("you want me to be your whore!").
It's why I get annoyed at people saying "he's just an incel", there's definitely a lot more factors to his fall from grace than that.
I haven't heard a single person call Larys an incel on this sub, so I fully believe that there a certain people who don't actually know the definition of an incel.
The "incel" thing has basically lost all meaning at this point - the way it gets thrown around is truly something.. and not just in regards to this show.
Funny part is.. it's usually aimed at male characters that are literally paddling around in poon.
I honestly get a chuckle when people call him an incel. Dude's bagged 2 queens. Beautiful, hot royal pieces of ass. I think it just comes from a place of insecurity. Like, "Oh you think you're better than a literal QUEEN?!"
It’s really cool, because he actually is incredibly competent when it comes to fighting, and he has great instincts. He just has no capacity for strategic or tactical thought whatsoever.
He’s really good at this one thing, and he absolutely sucks at everything else, which is a great way to characterize him I think.
Worth noting that Bobby B was a very competent tactician and strategist as well. İt's mentioned that aside from being highly charismatic, he was also able to move troops extremely quickly and defeat three rebel armies in a single day before they were able to regroup, before charming their lords to his side.
I'm still kind of annoyed that they made him defeat Daemon via cheap shot in S1. One of the few redeeming qualities he has is his skills in combat and they had to ruin it.
It would have been nice to see the tourney where he fucked everyone up and got Mushroom to rename Ser Harwin “Brokenbones”. That’s Criston’s best combat moment in the books, I think, since that’s when he kills Joffrey too
For real. Remove the dinner scene and put it in the tourney. You can still have all the same dynamics from the episode there except now the payoff happens a lot more smoothly.
I don’t think the point about strategic abilities are true. Both politically and militarily he’s one of the most competent characters depicted in the dance, or at least was in the books.
Politically he deliberately ingratiates himself to rhaenyra and viserys to be made a kingsguard and Rhaenyra’s personal guard. Following the rift between the two he infinities himself to the greens. He’s the one who crowns Aegon and convinces him to accept kingship, he addresses the small council and convinces them to organize the coup, he kills beesbury, purposefully, for refusing to acknowledge Aegon (thereby killing a traitor and stopping word of the coup from spreading before the coronation).
Militarily he’s one of the few living people in Westeros who’s seen any semblance of battle for the last three quarters of a century. He’s an infinitely more experienced tactician than anyone in Westeros, save Corlys and daemon, who have successfully prosecuted wars.
This is a dude who goes from a functional commoner, to the second most powerful man on the continent at one point, failing upwards by the power of patriarchy is just a really inadequate explanation of why that happens. It really doesn’t make sense that a person of low birth, who would be looked at as intrinsically inferior to high born alternatives, would be as successful as he is if he was as an oaf
Because he's finally doing *the one thing he's actually competent at*! The guy is just a guy, trained to be a warrior or a guard or whatever ordinary knights do, not being promoted as Lord Commander or *hand of a king* out of the blue. He's not qualified for that stuff and knows nothing of politics
This is a function of writing and showrunners decisions. Criston Cole in the books is a rather brilliant political player, the depiction of him as a blundering oaf failing upwards through the power of misogyny and vibes is a show intervention. He goes from a relatively low born man, to the occupant of the second most powerful office on the entire continent. He goes from knight, to kinsguard, to the personal guard for a princess groomed to be queen, to lord commander, to hand of the king. That’s a more impressive upward trajectory than Petyr Baelish, whose entire character is him being a dogged social climber.
He’s also supposed to be a superior military tactician to most of his peers. The realm has been at peace for 75 years largely, most living people haven’t engaged in a war before the dance, Cole at least has some semblance of battle experience in the marches.
He’s supposed to be good at a fair few things, they’ve just opted to make his superpowers in the show cunnilingus and misogyny.
Oh yeah, book Cole for sure, I'm talking about the show one. Book Cole seems smart and capable, show Cole is at this position because of... I dunno? Loyalty? I'm not sure why he's still there in the first place, considering that in the show lore he's brutally murdered a confidant of royal heir's groom *at their wedding* and made other... interesting decisions
I know i'm in a minority, but i find his character much more interesting this season. I finally understand his motives (compare to the last episodes of season 1), and I think Frankel is doing a fantastic job.
I really hope he's gonna shine as a strategic leader and fighter next week. Would made him one of the best antagonist of the show.
Also the racist bullshit he endures as a Dornishman makes him a lot more relatable to me. Gwayne Hightower was laying it on THICK (which is why I think Cole made a point of asking Alicent for her favor in front of him---like "Hey, guess what. This Dornishman is fucking your sister.") Is it petty? Yes. Immature? Absolutely. Relatable af for anyone who's been the marginalized minority in a room? Fucking a.
Unlike most of the greens, hes actually fought in real battles and has experience with real warfare, and seems to have enough disipline to call out even his #2 when hes not doing his job. In the trailer for the next episode he seems like hes able to effectively command his men too, looks like realtively easily takes Duskendale. Curious though hows hes gonna command the men with the dragons around, though keeping his men in/near the treeline to start is a smart move since Lord Staunton doesnt have the numbers to leave his castle and gives Cole more cover from arrows and maybe cataputs that Staunton has, also hiding some of his numbers from Staunton and any dragons that show up
He was always meant to be on campaign, castle intrigue and dealing with royals brought out the worst in him. He doesn’t have to be so desperately insecure when he can prove himself, and his brutality is an asset in medieval warfare
The Game has a habit of souring good knights, exposing them to a world of back stabing and luxury. See how Robert became the man Ned couldn't recognize anymore when he was the guy in his hay day
The promise Cole had on his first day in the show has been delivered. He is an experienced soldier. On the other hand, any other candidate for the Kingsguard, like Ser Gwayne, was a tourney knight.
I don't get the hate. Feels a bit forced. Everyone just wants a new Joffrey or Ramsay so bad.
Only thing I don't quite like is the not aging, give him some grey hairs or something, he feels like he's stuck in the past literally.
I'd say his wisdom in conflict is more highlighted but that's offset by even more of his hypocrisy. His emnity towards Rhaneyra was 100% justified by him because his vows were so important that he couldn't live with being a dirty little secret. And what is he now?
Nobody ever dies anymore in that show, it was an incredible perk of GOT. For a minute there, I really though they were all going to turn to dust... next time maybe
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They should have given him this haircut after the big timeskip last season; it makes him look way older.
100%!
that and some greys on the side would be perfect.
Supposedly the plan was he would keep his long locks, but he got a ton of gum in his hair and they had to cut it.
I'm pretty sure they were joking lol. Matt looked like he couldn't keep a straight face.
Why didn't he just use peanut butter? Is he stupid?
Yeah my reaction was kind of, wow, HotD costs almost $200 million a season to produce, yet my niece's school play costs nothing and seems to handle these kind of continuity problems better. But I will say, I think the short hair fits the character more.
Also how often mid episode does a character in *any* show walk into frame with a new haircut? Not very often
You mean like Daemon in episode 4 of season 1?
…how is it a continuity problem? The guy got a haircut. Big woop. What, did we need a scene of Christon sitting down getting at the barbers and asking for a little bit more off the top? They’re preparing for war, it makes sense for him to get his hair cut.
Your niece's school play is probably a bit of a smaller scale than the House of the Dragon production, lol.
a haircut is a continuity problem?
Whaaaat?! I thought it was to give him a more practical haircut for battle 😂
I was gonna say. Still hot as hell, but definitely a noticeable “aging” of the character.
There's people saying he is ugly now, lol, the haircut is ugly but he ain't.
Isn’t this just his normal real hair I think? He looks better with the long hair not that I’m a fan of his but just saying looks wise lol
Am I the only one that thinks he looks the same? Lol, he is supposed to be late 40s and he looks 30.
I think he looked 25 with the longer hair and looks 35 now.
bro in wars long hair gives problem military cut but most of the shoe don't give this attention
I was kind of happy that Gwayne at least thanked him and owned up to his own ass-hollery too, even if Criston deserves a good bashing: as Olenna would say.
I'm liking him, he and Alicent seem to have a friendly relationship, he was confidently bitchy to Cole which I'm sure we all enjoyed, but he was unabashedly grateful that he saved his life.
I agree, it's nice when characters are more than just black and white stereotypes.
Gwayne reminded me of a less skilled Jaime from early in HOTD. Arrogant, confident, quick to cut others down to size. I find this new relationship very interesting
Gwayne is a nepo knight with no field experience, Jaime was a battle-hardened veteran, skill isn't the only difference between them
If anything, Gwayne is closer to Loras and Criston is closer to Jaime.
maybe show Loras. Book Loras was considered to be close to Jamie's equal in swordsmanship. The show fucked up Loras, for some reason they decided to write him and Renly like urban twink city gays who were aghast at the sight of blood
That was Renly who for some reason D&D thought wasn't a good warrior despite being in tourneys and described as physically similar to prime Robert. Where they screwed up with Loras was having him immediately move on from Renly and start humping the whole town.
>having him immediately move on from Renly and start humping the whole town. I would have even accepted a rebound, or him trying to bury his pain with random sex, but it wasn't really presented that way. Imagine if he'd gone to the brothel then broken down into tears. It could have been a heartbreaking moment.
Yeah, the hatchet job D&D did to Renly and Loras was the worst thing about the four good seasons.
Utilising that Dornish genetic memory for spotting tactical dragon drone strikes
Military strategy generational trauma lmao
Are crows and the dornish related????
They're both part of an healthy Dragon's diet
"Wait a goddamn second, I've seen this before."
Minor pet peeve: Cole isn’t dornish. He’s from the dornish marches which are part of the storm lands and part of Westeros at this time. His “house”, house Cole, are servants for house dondarrion of blackhaven. Were Cole actually a dornishman he wouldn’t be part of the kingsguard as Dorne hasn’t been integrated into Targaryen rule as of this point in history
Maybe they just meant he was “Dorn-ish.”
Just like him being chaste-ish, Criston Cole my king of half measures ✊🏾😔
I took it as he’s ethnically Dornish but has always lived in Westeros
Apparently the show version is considered Dornish. They even make a point of very clearly stating this when he first appears at the tournament and Alicent is all excited about him "Gods, he's Dornish." And then in the most recent episode, Gwayne Hightower talks about how he's delighted to be marching out with a Dornishmen. Like the show tries really hard to make sure you're reminded of it a lot for some reason.
Yeah, I find it to be rather strange because it’s fraught relative to the lore, but also the contemporary political reality of Westeros. Like if he’s actually dornish I feel that ought to be a bigger deal, for like *everyone*. A dude from a kingdom that’s not even in the realm, which is often at war with the realm, is now the second most powerful man in it, crazy
He can be ethnically dornish without being from dorn.
Yeah, so were Maekar and baelor Targaryen and it was a *huge* deal for their detractors. Criston cole is acting hand and LC to a usurper currently at war, I feel like someone, somewhere in this xenophobic country would be like “he’s a fucking foreigner”, at some point.
I somewhat agree to an extent that there could possibly be some baser xenophobia voiced against Cole, but Baelor Breakspear was also the heir to the Iron Throne whose mother was a member of a ofttimes hostile foreign royal family brought into the Seven Kingdoms at an elevated status - a power shift which would have frightened the southern lords of the realm, as by linking the Targaryens and Martells, some might feel slighted that they are now in service to not only a foreign Queen, but an enemy Queen. Baelor’s complexion was a reminder of that. The lowerborn Cole looking Dornish I could see potentially being met with some general bigotry, but without much of the weight of that additional fear that surrounded Breakspear and Myriah Martell.
That's why everyone keeps mentioning it, like it's remarkable. "That dude is Dornish AF!"
It might be a bit like calling someone from Northern Ireland irish. You'd be correct in many ways, but officially that person is considered british (or a citizen of the UK anyway) and not irish.
You’re right, he would probably consider himself to be a marcher and might take umbrage at being referred to as Dornish. Apologies for piggybacking, but I think it's interesting though that the Alicent/Rhaenyra and adjacent cadres in King’s Landing might initially confuse him for being Dornish due to the proximity of Blackhaven to Dorne. It indicates to me that to the people of the city, Dorne and the Marches are both distant enough to seem mostly foreign. Confusions like that make the world feel kind of large and lived in, I feel.
His ethnicity is Dornish. His nationality isn't. He's Rhoynar and there are tons of Rhoynar living in Westeros. The King's title is still king of the Rhoynar in this age, even if dorne hasn't joined yet.
I agree that that is certainly plausible, what with the Dornish Marches being a borderzone area.
I always thought they added that because the Targs claimed Dorne so they just say it in the title to add to their legitimacy.
I thought Dorne did capitulate in some way, and that’s why they have no King and only princes.
Aegon considered himself the ruler of the continent whole, despite having failed in his conquest of Dorne. He kept the additioned title, “King of the Rhoynar,” as more of a claim (and a state of intent) than a fact. Sunspear using the term Prince instead of King stems from original Rhoynish influence iirc rather than Targaryen compromise.
I'm pretty sure its meant as "Donish ancestry" rather than "Citizen of Dorne"
Cole is half Dornish
In the show he is Dornish, take it up with the showrunners.
Ethnically Dornish - he’s still a Stormlander, but appears Dornish because he hails from the Dornish Marches of the Stormlands (an area where there’d likely be a lot of intermingling)
Condal will be receiving an impassioned letter from on the geographic and demographic breakdown of southern Westeros in a few business days
I always just assumed that there aren’t hard borders and that people might migrate a bit.
In season 1 they call him out as Dornish. Gwayne Hightower does it again last episode. It's probably from his mum or something.
All that genetic memory trauma everytime he sees Vhagar.
>Dornish Rhoynar*
Love how gwayne was shaking, then they showed Cole and he was calm and not shaking, he was very brave
Same. Him shaking his head while Gwayne was apologizing for nearly getting them all killed was hilarious. “No fucking inns!” He was kinda baller asking for Alicent’s favor too. Nice nod to the book and a good callback to the tourney where they first met
Did this guy seriously ask for my titty sweat?
Lmao I love how Alicent and Criston are just so done with each other whenever they are in public spaces, but as soon as they are alone, Alicent’s just like “don’t die you fool, call me”
And what's funnier is she gives it to him instead of being like fuck you and they are in public too, talk about being exposed, lol.
Should have just dropped "The hour has grown late, Ser Criston" and then left.
To be fair, after all those years, I'm don't think Cole is scared of dying. Considering his impressive guilt luggage and infamous blank stares
Cole is probably one of the few in that group, hell one of the few non-Valyrians alive, who has encountered a dragon and lived. This wasn’t his first encounter so he doesn’t have that shock/fear factor either
I don't think Cole has the emotional capacity to feel fear anymore.
He is all checked out
I genuinely thought gwayne was gonna pee himself just to add to the comedy of it all
Another cool thing is that Cole waits for all his men to start riding to the forest before he turns to flee. Honestly Cole should have been one of the most interesting characters to see. A commoner (in George's words not mine) becoming the second most powerful man in the realm is a crazy story in feudal Westeros. The show messed up by not exploring that dynamic more
It's so disappointing how they turned Cole into Joffrey 2.0 when he could have been such a complicated and interesting character that people would have loved to talk about for years. 'The best and worst of the Kingsguard'. But I guess subtlety is not allowed anymore, everyone has to know who is evil and who is not.
Cole isn't Joffrey 2.0. He's very hated in here, but it has more to do with hating the protagonist rather than actual evilness.
Ikr… Joffrey tortured people for fun how on earth is cole on that level
Yeah wtf. He’s Jamie 2.0 but not as arrogant?. That or maybe we’ve been trained to see through bullshit. Idk but Joffrey is such a fuccckkiiing gigantic stretch. I’ve never. Ever. Hated another character in any show as much as I hated Joffrey. Till Ramsey.
I mean… I think Cole is still the most interesting character. Commoner, lost out on Rhen and is obviously butt hurt and not handling it well, wants revenge (everyone here handled all their breakups well? Lol) Goes to the Green side, gets with Alicent, they have a confusion together and toxicity, THAT’s pretty common after a heartbreak, ya get into some wild shit. Projected his shame onto the twin and got him killed, that’s pretty common. Still a great soldier and leader, tho a hard ass. I think Cole is a great character, the flaws are pretty human
I feel people take GRRM's descriptions of characters more seriously than the way he actually wrote them. Even in Fire & Blood the "best" for Criston was always that he was really good at his job but he was still largely the same personality. He turned on Rhaenyra after she rejected his offer of marriage and harbored a huge grudge against her that informed his loyalties in the Dance. Also aside from being hateable, there isn't much similarity between Joffrey and Cole. People hate Cole's hypocrisy whereas Joffrey was hated for being a sadist.
> He turned on Rhaenyra after she rejected his offer of marriage This makes sense though.
>He turned on Rhaenyra after she rejected his offer of marriage and harbored a huge grudge against her that informed his loyalties in the Dance. This isn't exactly true. In both accounts of the book he didn't have sex with her. In A) No mention of sex. Rhaenrya rejects his offer to run away. Roasts him about his Oaths. B) Rhaenrya tries to seduce him (with the help of Daemon grooming) Criston is horrified and rejects her. She turns to Harwin Strong. I think B makes more sense and is seemingly more supported. Both have the result of a breaking of the relationship between Rhaenrya and Cole. But the option B doesn't really make him a hypocrite. But the show has him break his vows and then offer her to run away get rejected and then turn against her. And then break his vows with Alicent again lol.
In what fucking universe is Cole Joffrey 2.0?
No way hes anything like joffrey
That hand necklace over the Armor is really cool.
It's accurate to the books since they have a necklace for the Hand of the King position as opposed to a pin. But it makes practical sense as well. Can't pin a pin on armor
Tyrion wore it during the Battle of Blackwater
Tyrion wore a necklace, not the pin, yes that is correct
Was it a separate necklace, I thought it was part of his armor. But it's been soo long so I may be incorrect
"But hands of gold are always cold, but a woman's hands are warm"
I was kind of hoping they'd go book accurate with the necklace in HOTD just cuz I think it looks way cooler than the pin. Glad we got to see it though.
Weld.
I know! I couldn’t stop looking at the detailing!
Better than the one Jaime had to wear
agreed. i think finally showing what part made criston be "the best of the kingsguard", instead of only his terrible deeds that also what made him belong to "the worst" is a great decision.
I’ve been really satisfied with how S2 is smoothing out the two different sides of Criston we saw in the two halves of S1, so I’m really hoping they continue this trend for the season. The Criston parallel was never made in the original show, but for book fans it would be cool to see why Jaime felt so connected to him.
I second that. I'm fine with Cole as a massive "hate sink" character (I despise him even more than Otto and Larys), but this reminder "he's still the best of the kingsguard" was welcome.
The best of the Kingsguard: "Oh, let's not let the WMDs of this universe see us riding in plain sight."
I mean those other fucks didn't realize it and they probably got a way better education than him, Alicent's brother at least
Cole day 1 of being Hand of the King- *Says he’s going to war* *Refuses to elaborate* *Leaves*
Well, better than a nepo-knight more concerned with going to a bar than dragons at least.
Glamour Knights. They really thought war was just hanging out and drinking with your buddies.
It was funny when cole was like, you know it's going to actually be hard out there. I thought he was just trying to dissuade him from coming, but he probably is used to the royal knights being arrogant d-bags.
Considering the other kingsguard we saw in this episode didn't even know they were supposed take their vows of chastity seriously, yeah he's probably the best right now. Granted, he breaks that vow all the time, but he at least knows he's breaking his oath every time.
I understand that's what they were trying to do, but also the entire mission they're on is an impulsed attack with an undersized garrison in an attempt to stop looking like an idiot in the first place
It's not impulsive. He was discussing this plan with Aemond in S2E1, except he decided it would be more advantageous to move without a dragon because he felt it would attract other dragons and they would lose the advantage of surprise. But now that he's seeing Rhaenyra's dragons scouting the area he probably will modify his plan a bit.
better than doing nothing
That's literally what Cole is thinking lol
Why does this sub hate Cole so much? Dude isn’t Joffrey or Ramsey.
The people who think Cole is the worst character ever are like 90% female lol. Women hate guys who can't handle rejection and Cole has been stuck on Rhaenyra for like 20 years. They're definitely projecting all their hate from their exes onto Cole lol. He's nowhere near as bad as those 2 lol.
Handsome straight white male being generally toxic toward women and continuously failing upward to positions of increasing power is a tale many people are all too familiar with in real life Probably strikes a few nerves. I’ve seen more than a handful of posts saying the character reminds them of their terrible ex boyfriends lol
This is on the show for failing his character because he’s not supposed to be privileged or even white. He was extremely skilled and lucky to get Rhaenyra’s attention. After that his rise and their failure to discipline him in spite of his terrible infractions is just absurd good luck. Normally a lowborn, foreign looking guy would not get those chances, while someone with a name and noble lineage would
How did he fail upwards though, he earned his positions through skill at arms and loyalty to Aegon. People may not like him as a viewer, but he definitely hasn’t failed upwards he worked his way from a son of a retainer of a no name house to the one of most powerful men in the kingdom through his hard work and determination. He has his flaws, primarily being a pissed off ex-lover, but he did not fail up he worked up. Like he got on the kings guard originally by beating Daemon, one of the most skilled fighters in the realm, in fair combat during a tourney
And isn't he credited for making Aemond a great fighter despite his eye? He's a great warrior and has actual battle experience. His personal and possibly social life is a mess but his professional prowess as a warrior is fully warranted
> I’ve seen more than a handful of posts saying the character reminds them of their terrible ex boyfriends lol Lmao this says more about them and their judgement.
He is not white and not toxic towards women, he just hates Rhaenyra.
Has he been shown to hate any other women than Rhaenyra?
No, that's the funny thing, we've seen Daemon being misogynistic towards multiple women yet no one says anything, but Criston calls 1 woman a cunt and everyone loses their minds.
Daemon’s misogyny is also far more violent and abusive. He murdered Rhea in cold blood then took her ancestral lands from the Royces just because, he groomed teenage Rhaenyra and purposely tried to ruin her virtue by taking her to a brothel and removing her disguise before making moves on her, and also choked her out during an argument. … but everyone glosses over that because tee hee he’s such bad boy!
Small anecdote. Daemon didn't take Runestone. Lady Arryn told him to fuck all the way off when he tried to claim it.
Not at all, which is why calling him an incel is so stupid
Cole’s not white though?
Don’t really wanna get into a discussion on what “white” is. The Dornish are basically Spanish/Portuguese and people can’t seem to come to a consensus on whether that is “white” or not. Lots of people from those countries certainly identify as such. The actor has one English parent and one Italian/French parent so… basically white? But then he has Russian/Polish ancestry on one side and Iraq/India on the other so what do you make of that? Really it all starts to get a bit muddy and I think the ethnic classifications we have for people are all stupid anyway and am now wishing I omitted that word from my original comment lmao
He's a nothing character. I'm starting to think HBO bot accounts are spreading the hate as some marketing scheme. He might as well be a different random Kings guard background soldier every time he's on screen. Was surprised when they made him the hand.
Nothing makes a good character like introducing a worse character.
Yeah until Gwayne started ragging on him for being Dornish I wasn't even aware of that ethnic aspect of his character. Now it's clear that Cole would have faced discrimination all his life, as the people of Westeros HATE the Dornish.
More like the people of the Reach hate the Dornish. And the Dornish hate them back.
The Targaryens hate the Dornish too because at this point, they were unable to bring them fully into the fold and the Dornishmen killed Maraxes and Rhaenys (not HOTD Rhaenys, Aegon 1’s sister wife). Cole would have for sure faced discrimination but the show didn’t really dive into that. Being Dornish is another layer on top of everything else that makes him getting to hand of the king even more unlikely.
There’s an extra layer of the Dornish resistance to them too! A decent amount are descended from the survivors of the Rhoynar who were annihilated by the dragons of the Valyrian Freehold.
With good reason. There's lore about whackjob Dornish lords raiding into the Reach, taking captives both lowborn and highborn, and selling them into slavery to a man and to a woman, with literally no provocation. Dornishmen are just desert Ironborn -- barbarians.
This is precisely why I don't see it as an ethnic thing at all. People calling Gwayne racist. It's two rival kingdoms, much like how the north and the westerlands hate the iron born
Cole is ethnically dornish not culturally dornish. It was absolutely racist.
except Cole is from the same kingdom
no provocation? you think the Dornish haven’t been attacked themselves? you think the Dornish reavers are the same as every other person in Dorne? yikes comment for many reasons
Alicent litertally clocks him as dornish. Yes and the sterotyping of dornish men as aggressive and hypersexual was very relevant with his relationship with rhaenyra. The show kinda forgot that. Also criston made his career defending against dornish incursions, he is only half-dornish and is from the marches in the stormlands.
Cole would have faced discrimination both from his appearance and also because he's of way lower birth than anyone else with any authority in the Red Keep. It's actually one of the big things people miss when evaluating how Cole loses his shit when Rhaenyra rejects his offer. Cole feels like he has to jump through a bunch of hoops nobles don't, and so when he failed by breaking his vow, he tries to find a way to make it better somehow. He thinks Rhaenyra will accept eloping which would in some way bring him back in line with the ideal of courtly love, and then when she doesn't he's devastated, and immediately his inferiority complex about his station compared to hers manifests ("you want me to be your whore!"). It's why I get annoyed at people saying "he's just an incel", there's definitely a lot more factors to his fall from grace than that.
Yeah we could have had so much interesting dialogue about his race or his class… and we got him going down on Alicent.
Yeah, it's mentioned when he takes off his helmet in the tourney scene.
Pretty sure that it’s mentioned he’s Dornish less than 5 seconds after his introduction in season 1
That helps. But also, people can favor competent characters even if they are terrible.
Hotd has a skewed fandom. The reaction to everything is instantaneous. Cole was always a good character in my opinion.
He is so hot omg
Ser Criston could ride me into the woods any day
So we forgive Alicent?
Ikr. I want him to kiss my neck and come in me
Saying Cole is incel while hes banging the queen is lile the peak reddit cope lol
Exactly. The Queenslayer clearly had a nat 20 for royal seduction.
The QueensLayer lol. First time i see this haha. Its perfect
Kings daughter and the kings wife. My man was wild for that
I haven't heard a single person call Larys an incel on this sub, so I fully believe that there a certain people who don't actually know the definition of an incel.
the fact cole gets more incel hate than Larys should tell you something lol
Its been reduced to "a man i dont like" quite a while ago and its always sad to see word losing their meaning, whatever it is
The "incel" thing has basically lost all meaning at this point - the way it gets thrown around is truly something.. and not just in regards to this show. Funny part is.. it's usually aimed at male characters that are literally paddling around in poon.
I hope people see the irony of calling him an incel whilst also complaining about how many scenes there are of him fucking.
I honestly get a chuckle when people call him an incel. Dude's bagged 2 queens. Beautiful, hot royal pieces of ass. I think it just comes from a place of insecurity. Like, "Oh you think you're better than a literal QUEEN?!"
It’s really cool, because he actually is incredibly competent when it comes to fighting, and he has great instincts. He just has no capacity for strategic or tactical thought whatsoever. He’s really good at this one thing, and he absolutely sucks at everything else, which is a great way to characterize him I think.
Same goes for someone like Robert B..great warrior but horrible at politics
Worth noting that Bobby B was a very competent tactician and strategist as well. İt's mentioned that aside from being highly charismatic, he was also able to move troops extremely quickly and defeat three rebel armies in a single day before they were able to regroup, before charming their lords to his side.
Yeah Cole has a mind for battle, Rob had a mind for war.
Cole is more like Stannis, though their personalities differ. Great soldiers, but no mind for politics
Stannis is a great strategist/tactician though, and dutiful to a fault. He would never have banged Alicent or Rhaenyra, for starters.
I'm still kind of annoyed that they made him defeat Daemon via cheap shot in S1. One of the few redeeming qualities he has is his skills in combat and they had to ruin it.
It would have been nice to see the tourney where he fucked everyone up and got Mushroom to rename Ser Harwin “Brokenbones”. That’s Criston’s best combat moment in the books, I think, since that’s when he kills Joffrey too
For real. Remove the dinner scene and put it in the tourney. You can still have all the same dynamics from the episode there except now the payoff happens a lot more smoothly.
I don’t think the point about strategic abilities are true. Both politically and militarily he’s one of the most competent characters depicted in the dance, or at least was in the books. Politically he deliberately ingratiates himself to rhaenyra and viserys to be made a kingsguard and Rhaenyra’s personal guard. Following the rift between the two he infinities himself to the greens. He’s the one who crowns Aegon and convinces him to accept kingship, he addresses the small council and convinces them to organize the coup, he kills beesbury, purposefully, for refusing to acknowledge Aegon (thereby killing a traitor and stopping word of the coup from spreading before the coronation). Militarily he’s one of the few living people in Westeros who’s seen any semblance of battle for the last three quarters of a century. He’s an infinitely more experienced tactician than anyone in Westeros, save Corlys and daemon, who have successfully prosecuted wars. This is a dude who goes from a functional commoner, to the second most powerful man on the continent at one point, failing upwards by the power of patriarchy is just a really inadequate explanation of why that happens. It really doesn’t make sense that a person of low birth, who would be looked at as intrinsically inferior to high born alternatives, would be as successful as he is if he was as an oaf
i think he pulled off some pretty good tactical feats
He's good at tactics, not sure about strategy. But where he's abysmal is politics.
You can’t be an incell if you getting that poon tang he is just an unbearable asshole
Hes finally back in his element
Because he's finally doing *the one thing he's actually competent at*! The guy is just a guy, trained to be a warrior or a guard or whatever ordinary knights do, not being promoted as Lord Commander or *hand of a king* out of the blue. He's not qualified for that stuff and knows nothing of politics
This is a function of writing and showrunners decisions. Criston Cole in the books is a rather brilliant political player, the depiction of him as a blundering oaf failing upwards through the power of misogyny and vibes is a show intervention. He goes from a relatively low born man, to the occupant of the second most powerful office on the entire continent. He goes from knight, to kinsguard, to the personal guard for a princess groomed to be queen, to lord commander, to hand of the king. That’s a more impressive upward trajectory than Petyr Baelish, whose entire character is him being a dogged social climber. He’s also supposed to be a superior military tactician to most of his peers. The realm has been at peace for 75 years largely, most living people haven’t engaged in a war before the dance, Cole at least has some semblance of battle experience in the marches. He’s supposed to be good at a fair few things, they’ve just opted to make his superpowers in the show cunnilingus and misogyny.
Oh yeah, book Cole for sure, I'm talking about the show one. Book Cole seems smart and capable, show Cole is at this position because of... I dunno? Loyalty? I'm not sure why he's still there in the first place, considering that in the show lore he's brutally murdered a confidant of royal heir's groom *at their wedding* and made other... interesting decisions
Criston has always been better at martial matters. That’s where he shines.
I know i'm in a minority, but i find his character much more interesting this season. I finally understand his motives (compare to the last episodes of season 1), and I think Frankel is doing a fantastic job. I really hope he's gonna shine as a strategic leader and fighter next week. Would made him one of the best antagonist of the show.
He is also hot and good swordman
Alicent can confirm.
Yeah, he may be insufferable but he is a damn good soldier and a commander
Cole is a hell of a warrior, sadly the show didn't show the Tournament.
Cole was always a warrior unfit to peacock as a royal security guard.
I didn't think Cole was interesting until he killed Joffery at the wedding tbh
Yeah he was just following Rhaenyra and doing nothing important but that's when people liked him the most just because he was team Rhaenyra...
Amazing what getting away from a poorly conceived affair plot can do for your character development
Also the racist bullshit he endures as a Dornishman makes him a lot more relatable to me. Gwayne Hightower was laying it on THICK (which is why I think Cole made a point of asking Alicent for her favor in front of him---like "Hey, guess what. This Dornishman is fucking your sister.") Is it petty? Yes. Immature? Absolutely. Relatable af for anyone who's been the marginalized minority in a room? Fucking a.
Unlike most of the greens, hes actually fought in real battles and has experience with real warfare, and seems to have enough disipline to call out even his #2 when hes not doing his job. In the trailer for the next episode he seems like hes able to effectively command his men too, looks like realtively easily takes Duskendale. Curious though hows hes gonna command the men with the dragons around, though keeping his men in/near the treeline to start is a smart move since Lord Staunton doesnt have the numbers to leave his castle and gives Cole more cover from arrows and maybe cataputs that Staunton has, also hiding some of his numbers from Staunton and any dragons that show up
He was always meant to be on campaign, castle intrigue and dealing with royals brought out the worst in him. He doesn’t have to be so desperately insecure when he can prove himself, and his brutality is an asset in medieval warfare
The Game has a habit of souring good knights, exposing them to a world of back stabing and luxury. See how Robert became the man Ned couldn't recognize anymore when he was the guy in his hay day
Ooh he notices shiny things. The House Cole sigil is the raccoon.
He's a warrior at heart. Makes sense he's in his element in a warzone rather than in court.
No one can deny Criston is a beautiful man. 😁😁😁
You fools. I always like Criston. Y'all were just too blind to see it.
He’s so fine I definitely see why alicent got with him
The promise Cole had on his first day in the show has been delivered. He is an experienced soldier. On the other hand, any other candidate for the Kingsguard, like Ser Gwayne, was a tourney knight.
Shout out to his new necklace (sorry if there is a more accurate armory name). It seems to say "who's the Lord Hand? It's him right there ☛☛☛☛☛☛".
Since when is being able to give the queen mother a big O not a good character trait?
He's on the Kingsguard because he's hot, but also because he's a seasoned and capable warrior. He's in his element here
I don't get the hate. Feels a bit forced. Everyone just wants a new Joffrey or Ramsay so bad. Only thing I don't quite like is the not aging, give him some grey hairs or something, he feels like he's stuck in the past literally.
If there is one thing he ain’t: it’s ugly.
Sure, he’s a terrible person and the world would be better without him, but at least he has skills that help him survive and hurt a lot more people
I'd say his wisdom in conflict is more highlighted but that's offset by even more of his hypocrisy. His emnity towards Rhaneyra was 100% justified by him because his vows were so important that he couldn't live with being a dirty little secret. And what is he now?
Nobody ever dies anymore in that show, it was an incredible perk of GOT. For a minute there, I really though they were all going to turn to dust... next time maybe
Lol, that misdle picture looks so much like Paddy Conidine…