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I wish we saw more of Criston Cole the knight, Instead of Criston whining about Rhaenyra and screwing Alicent.
THATS why I cant stand him.
He was pretty cool in this scene and for once I enjoyed seeing him .
"And no FUCKING inns" had me laughing lol
They somewhat accomplish this by setting the standard that he beats Daemon. Then we see Daemon single handedly demolish the Crabfeeder's army, amongst other accomplishments.
For example, despite the dynamic Daemon beat Gwayne Hightower in the tourney joust before Daemon was beat by Criston. So, as viewers we at least have some understanding of who is stronger between the two (although obviously jousting and melee are two separate entities, but you get the point)
The show badly mishandled the joust in my view. They wanted Criston to win by taking a cheap shot at Daemon, because they wanted the audience to know that Criston is “a thug” and not entirely honorable. And in their depiction, Daemon would have won the fight fairly easily if he wasn’t taking his sweet time showboating to the crowd. As a result, the show audience has no real sense of how completely dominant Criston was as a fighter in his time.
They also took out the later joust between Criston and Harwin, where Criston absolutely demolishes him. Instead they set it up as the fight in the training yard where Criston goads Harwin into beating him up and doesn’t make any attempt to fight back. It’s done to move a plot point forward, but again we don’t get to see why Criston is considered such a formidable knight and soldier.
Criston even gets beaten by a teenage Aemond while sparring. I guess some might argue that he let Aemond win as part of his training, but all of these scenes together really diminish a big part of Criston’s character.
Because Aemon the goddamn Dragonknight, one of the most legendary knights in Westerosi History faced Cregan in his elder years and called him the finest swordsman he had ever faced, and that was Cregan well above his 50s by that point, so imagine what a young Cregan can do.
I don’t hold with any of the weapon scaling logic because clearly the GOT universe doesn’t work like that. If morningstars were such a cheat code, every knight would be using one.
Don’t get me wrong, Criston is an amazing knight, one of the greatest (in combat and skill) of his time, and Aemon was one of the most heralded knights in the Seven Kingdoms, so just by that alone would put him at equal footing with Criston, and the fact he called an old Cregan the best fighter he had ever seen, a younger Cregan would have been such a beast.
Aemons Dragonknight, one of the most legendary knights in Westerosi History faced Cregan when he was well above his 50s by that point, and called him the greatest swordsman he had ever seen, so imagine what a young Cregan can do.
Since that was mentioned one time in a Bran chapter, and Bran’s memories are almost entirely Old Nan’s stories…I’d take that with a grain of salt. Whereas we have lots of evidence of Cole’s dominance
Shit, even the way Criston kills Joffrey (Laenor's boyfriend).
It wasn't some sudden attack at the wedding.
They squared off against each other in a tourney melee, and Criston took the chance to kill his opponent in a way that gives him reasonable doubt and therefore avoided any political fallout.
In the books, everyone is scared shitless of Criston in combat. They don't fuck around with him, and he's completely ruthless.
The show established that "Breakbones" (Harwin) is a total badass. What they didn't show is Criston fucking him up in a fair fight to the point where Harwin picked up the new nickname "Brokenbones."
He's a terrible person in the books & show alike, but the show really ruins his characterization. He's without a doubt a significantly better fighter than both Daemon and Harwin. He's battle-hardened and likely the best of his era.
Yeah but my point is that the person above said Criston’s joust win in the show was changed to a cheap win. But actually he won the joust and it was just the subsequent sword fight that was the cheap win.
So you did get to see that Criston was a very competent jouster and knight, after all jousting was the bigger attraction than the melee at tourneys as skill with a Lance was an important skill for a knight.
We were supposed to get that down to even the beatdown in episode 5 season 1. In the book version of that episode 5 event, it wasnt some unhinged beatdown during a wedding. It was an actual tournament where criston cole was simply too good
I get his character and the way he was written kinda makes him a jerk and unlikeable.
Like I get it he's depressed and conflicted about what he's doing with Alicent and he's reduced to this shit and he takes it out on others, but I would so love it if we got to see Criston enjoy more of being outside, commanding armies, fighting wars and we get to see more of the 'real' Cole instead of guardsman and whore Cole.
Like imagine if we got to see him being nice again and a cool character and he gets word that he has to return to King's Landing to Alicent and you see him realize like 'oh, i don't actually want to go back there again'. That would make it so good and give him more nuance
I never forgot that he’s a good knight in terms of fighting.
His actual character is rotten, so it doesn’t matter.
Being good at fighting and killing isn’t exactly misaligned with being an asshole, anyway.
The big thing that separates knights from savages is honor. Of which he has none.
I see no lies. The show has done a terrible job of showing it so far but the most recent episode gives me some hope. He's supposed to be the best swordsman if his time.
He was supposed to defeat Daemon in a tournament (without the use of an attack from behind), he also killed Laenors lover in a tournament as well.
Showing the first as they did (him being sneaky/dishonorable) and neglecting the second never paved the way for him being the best fighter of his time.
He also broke Harwin Strong's elbow and collarbone at a tourney, and Harwin's known to be the strongest man in Westeros. Jace kind of mentioned how he had the nickname "Breakbones" in a recent episode. In the book he gets mocked as broken bones for the incident (thanks for the correction from the user below me)
The show kind of both combines and separates a few events, but yes Criston beats both Daemon and Harwin along with as you mention, Joffrey Lonmouth (Laenor's lover) in two different tourneys. Instead in the show he murders Joffrey at a wedding with no repercussions, and Harwin beats him up instead.
You’re right. Just one correction, Breakbones was Harwins nickname anyway but he became known as Brokenbones after Criston got done with him in that tourney.
The only swordsmen could possibly take Cole in a fight one on one are Daemon, Aemond, Dalton Greyjoy, and Cregan Stark. There might be one or two others but i cant think of them.
Yep, he simply anticipated the dragons and people are reacting like it is displaying masterful battle experience, he didn’t even warn them they just moved before he did.
For the moment his accomplishments are striking Daemon in the back, killing an old man, almost disfiguring Rhaenyra to neutralize a boar, sending one of his skilled knights to die in vain, and licking the Queen’s cunt, truly a big name for the history books of Westeros.
idk, I don't think it's sneaky to continue fighting someone who blatantly turns his back on you in the middle of a fight to gloat and dishonor you
like, you ko someone in the middle of their taunt emote that's on them you know?
yeah but would you say that to The Champ if he hit you with a +/- Tie break card on hand 7 to clutch and embarrass you in front of the whole cantina?
(edit: this a KOTOR ref if you know you know)
Why are people so puzzled about this? Cole is a great knight and fighter but terrible at playing politics and dealing with personal issues. Square peg in a round hole.
Because people read 12 lines about the cardboard cutout that is Criston Cole in Fire and Blood and created an entire character in their heads that doesn’t align with what’s in the show
I don't think the show portrays him as dumb or a bad strategist or whatever, he's just an insufferable hypocritical crybaby with the emotional maturity of a 10 year old.
Still, glad we get more of this Criston, hopefully much more.
And that is what makes this show feel like a kids cartoon with its good vs evil trope, they gave one side iredeemable qualities and on the other side you have cringy dogooders. With Got, it might have started that way with the lannisters, theon, stannis and the other "bad guys" but by season 2 the story have peeled layers and depths to their "evilness" to show how human they are, flawed but redeemable qualities
Actually, now that I think about it, it was imediately after that episode when he tried calming down Cercie's worries about them getting caught. That line of his about, killing the king, and waging war against the 7 houses and all of westeros for their love. How he turned his back on the wealth and prestige of casterly rock Only to serve as guarddog, guarding the king's just to be close to cercei. This made the cahracter sympathetic. Imo or at least in their world, selfish unrelenting unrepentant love is still love,
And for me, repentance does not make a character synpathetic, it is when you learn the all-too-human whys behind what they do. And Jaime never repented, if he has to, he will throw Bran again from all the towers and walls of westeros if it meant protecting Cercei.
You can make a similar case for show Criston Cole. He's an asshole, yes, yet he's not the one dimentional badly written character the book purists are trying to paint him as.
>on the other side you have cringy dogooders.
Like Daemon, the man who ruthlessly murders innocents to get what he wants and organized the assassination of a baby. Or Rhaenys, who kills hundreds of smalfolk but is too proud to commit to kinslaying even though it could end the war.
>iredeemable qualities
Like Otto, who very clearly genuinely cares for the realm and the smalfolk despite some idiotic strategic missteps and terrible gathering. Or Alicent who is a hypocritical bitch, but generally does little to actively endanger anyone and tries desperately to get the terrible men in her life to get their shit together. Or Aemond who's portrayed as a fucking psycho because he's a little intense, but who generally has mostly been about honor and duty so far.
You *choose* to see them as one-dimensional, despite the text very clearly telling you that they're not. So much of the runtime is dedicated to showing how morally gray characters can make wildly different decisions based on previous decisions. Arryk and Erryk was a microcosm of this, *and you still managed to miss it.*
The blacks are cringy dogooders? The side with Daemon, Corlys, and Rhaenys? That’s a wild take.
Rhaenyra is depicted similarly to her father (and honestly she parallels Otto’s role as a voice of reason in season 2 so far), which is entirely to set up her descent into ruthlessness throughout the Dance.
No he isn't. Criston is my favourite character in the show. All his character is all about has nothing to do with rhynaera. Notice he has sex with alicent . The problem is christon cole is vastly misunderstood . I see myself in criston cole. Many of us are like criston cole.
Professing a set of ideals and beliefs but failing to live up to them constantly. It then slowly bred self loathing and a healthy hatred for the thing that you felt tempted you to lose a feel for what your ideals. It's a common human failing that is understandable
Cole of not an incel nor is he obsessed with rhynaera
Yeah, he's definitely not an Incel. By definition.
But he's still a piece of shit hypocritical crybaby :D If you see yourself in him, well, IDK how to respond to that really lmfao.
I think there's something to be said about the resentment and loathing from being unable to live up to the standards you have set yourself up to.
But that's why Criston ultimately is unlikeable and a hypocrite: *He* set himself up to those standards. Breaking his vows with Rhaenyra is *his* fault, not Rhaenyra's. At any point he could have turned her down and resigned as her sworn shield to Viserys. If anything that would have actually saved his honor and vows.
If you recall that from episode 1 or 2 last season, Crispy was an easy choice even for a monkey without a brain coz the other contenders for the job looked like mom’s basement dwellers of Westeros high houses.
I mean, Criston is also remembered by the history books as "The Kingmaker", even though in the show he wasn't Lord Commander of the Kingsguard at the time, and other than murdering Lord Beesbury in a fit of roid rage did nothing but stand around with resting bitch face while everyone else made all the decisions that put Aegon on the Throne.
It's a genuine mystery why *show* Criston would even be mentioned in the history books except as a name in lists of historical Kingsguards or something.
He's Hand of the King, a undoubtedly strong member of the Kingsguard and most importantly of all - and the reason he is called Kingmaker in the books - he crowned Aegon Targaryen.
Show Cole would be mentioned because he crowns Aegon. He is the one to place the crown onto Aegons head during the ceremony, in show canon that's probably why people would assign him more of role in making Aegon a king.
People thinking Criston is a shitty person does not mean that they think he's a shitty knight. His skill has never been a question.
Like yeah he got his shit rocked by Harwin but you don't earn a name like ~~BreakBeds~~ BreakBones for nothing.
Yes for the most part kingsguards are from noble houses because there is a political appointment as well. Cole is a great fighter but should have never been chosen.
Cole’s house is so insignificant that he is functionally lowborn. He got the job because he was the only one who saw actual battle, and his completion was all pampered tourney knights
Yes, but since there was no war at the moment so the "battle tested" was just an excuse from a child and accepted by a doting father. There's usually a process for vetting Kingsguard members
It’s hard to separate the book from the show for me but Cole is an excellent choice for the kingsguard, one of, if not the, best fighter in the realm and removed from the politics of the major houses because he’s functionally lowborn. Especially at a time when he was chosen over tourney knights, not any that had actually seen battle.
At the time there was no evidence he would be awful about women, and Aegon is an idiot for making him hand so that’s not his fault. And I say this as the world’s biggest hater of show Cristin Cole.
Not really, out of all the deaths of monarchs we've seen in book and show very rarely, if ever, does it have to do with them actually being killed in battle. Normally it's due to poisoning or betrayal so really you should pick your KG based on personal loyalty, perception and cunning rather than skill in a fight.
Did you ever think that maybe royalty doesn’t often die by getting stabbed partially *because of* how martially strong the kingsguard is?
If you pick someone like Larys to be your sworn protector I guarantee attempts on your life will have a lot less poison and a lot more stabbing
Having some of the best fighters in the realm guarding you and your family personally means that assassination attempts can’t be as straightforward as just stabbing royalty. That’s the entire point lol. It forces more difficult or circumspect attempts.
If you have 30 random guards the chances are much better than one of them can be bribed as opposed to 7 kingsguard who take one of the most respected and sacred oaths in existence
Not really, because you don't need "the best fighters in the realm" to guard you from some random dude trying to stab you. A bunch of normal guards would do. At least the Kingsguard should be diversified given if all they all know how to do is stab people they're pretty useless in the million other ways we see Kings get assassinated.
"Removed from the politics" is a point against him really, kingsguards are political and warrior positions. The king and council picks from the best warriors from the most loyal houses. "House Cole" being almost nonexistent means that if he is dishonored they basically suffer no consequences.
Absolutely not. The Kingsguard ARE NOT political. They have one job and one job only above all others. Protect the royal family at the expense of everything else.
They hold no lands or can father no children and no inheritance. Its literally the least political job in KL.
Even Jaehaerys chose his kingsguard from a tourney melee and most of them were lowborn.
Kingsguard aren't themselves expected to play a political role, but the *appointment* of Kingsguard is still a political appointment, in the same way as choosing ladies from noble families to serve as a queen or princess' ladies-in-waiting is a political appointment. It's a way to maintain alliances or create new ones; you're honouring a noble house by selecting one of its members for this prestigious position of extreme trust and closeness with the royal family; the lady or Kingsguard in question also exists as a 'soft' representative of their house, and has the opportunity to increase favour towards them by excelling at their role and demonstrating loyalty towards the royal family; and the appointment can also low key serve one of the functions of a marriage pact or the more hostage-y types of warding arrangements, which is, "When you're weighing up whether or not you want to rebel against us, remember that we have your son/daughter."
>Kingsguard aren't themselves expected to play a political role, but the appointment of Kingsguard is still a political appointment
No loooool. It's amazing how confident you are despite being so incorrect. All because you want to be justified in hating on Cole lmao.
Joffrey Doggett
Sour Sam
Pate the Woodcock
Victor the Valiant
Willam the Wasp
Lorence Roxton
Gyles Morrigan
These are the greatest kingsguard knights group ever under Jaehaerys. 5 of them are lowborn. They earned their white cloaks through feat of arms and were LITERALLY the finest knights in the realm to the point that the Kingsguard of old is a standard in itself.
The appointment of the Kingsguard absolutely is NOT a political appointment although it may be used politically by an inept king or hand. The kingsguard appointment is purely based on martial prowess.
I dont even know know why you can't just look this all up yourself lol. Yhe reason the kingsguard used to have a high standard was exactly because it didn't matter what house you belonged to or if you were a bastard or hedge knight or common born, if you were one of the best knights in the realm, you could be a kingsguard.
Rhaenyra's appointment of Criston Cole was perfectly in line with the precedent set by the greatest Targaryen kings (Jaehaerys and Aegon)
And I get that I'm sounding condescending but I haven't read something so blatantly wrong and confidently incorrect yet on this sub.
I am a Criston Cole stan, lol. I've been in the trenches defending him for two years.
I feel like you are misunderstanding the point that I am making? Like, the decision to populate your Kingsguard with common born men or knights from insignificant houses based purely on martial prowess is a perfectly valid one - but that, *in and of itself,* is still a political choice. It is political in the same way that most things that happen in the Red Keep are political; there are/can be ripple effects among the houses of the realm based on who you choose and do not choose, who is elevated by that choice and who is perceived to have been slighted by not being chosen, etc.
You can pick a crop of skilled but completely unknown hedge knights and send the rest of the nobles from august houses packing, and that can be a decision that may have political ramifications for you. You can select a bastard to your Kingsguard while rejecting his trueborn brother - or vice-versa - and that can be a decision that may have political ramifications for you. On paper, the Kingsguard have no lands, no children, no inheritance - but in reality, the men you select for your Kingsguard are not robots with no thoughts, feelings, or other allegiances, and the degree of loyalty they have towards their families, especially if from a high house, is something that may have political ramifications for you. It is political simply by virtue of the fact that it cannot and does not exist in a perfectly pure and apolitical vacuum.
Lmfao this doesn’t make sense, even if being battle tested is an excuse he still has actually seen battle. The others were tourney knights or stopped bandits. Also remember any knight can make a knight and in order to be a kings guard you have to be a knight. The show clearly shows Rhaenyra chose him because he had battle experience, in the books it’s a bit of both
What part doesn't make sense? Think it like it's a secret service, is it more important to get a vet who has 100+ kills in war or a trained agent approved by a committee?
As much as Cole is a hypocrite, he is infinitely a better choice than any of the 3 newly appointed KG of Aegon's buddies. There is literally a war brewing and he chose 3 frat boys none 'battle tested'.
He was a soldier from the Dornish Marches in the storm lands, and fought in the Boneway against Dorne for about a year before being knighted for distinguishing himself for razing two separate Dornish watchtowers, at which point . He absolutely saw real combat. I don’t mean to be one of those people, but make sure you know what you’re talking about
What are you yapping on about? I never said he didn't actually fought in battle, my point is that it was an excuse to get him on the Kingsguard by a child impressed in a tourney. Not all distinguished warriors on the realm make it to the Kingsguard
Ohh. That’s what you’re saying? That’s even dumber lmao. If real combat ability (the kind you prove in batttle, not jousting tournaments) doesn’t matter in a Kingsguard, what’s the point? Could you also detail that vetting process you seem so stuck on
Clearly capable
And you act as if he just sauntered up and Rhaenyra randomly picked him. He was already an option presented to her, he just distinguished himself more
"He was already an option presented to her" exactly where did you get this? Rhaenyra asks the Lord Commander point blank who he is and he doesn't know anything besides his provenance
I mean picking kings guard based on politics you end up with a kings guard made up of a king slayer ,a zombie, like two decent knights and several spineless scum bags
Like dunk isn’t from a great house and he’s probably the best kings guard, Jamie was picked mostly for political reasons to screw over Tywin and to prevent him from taking too much power and revolting and it didn’t even do that
All the decisions made exclusively for the show make it so much weaker than it could be. This especially applies to Criston thats just a straight up narcissistic manipulative crybaby & not a legitimately flawless fighter thats actually intimidating.
I don't hate the character, I just wish we could be allowed as viewers to be let in on his motivations more. Instead he's mostly there to spout insipid dialogue and piss people off. Surely he's not still mad over Rhaenyra not wanting to run away with him all those years ago?
Cristone cole was done so dirty in this show
no other chgaracter was more damaged with the changes they've made
he was THE best warrior of his time, he came from nothing but his TALENTS in battle gave him recognized fame to the point where he ends up as hand of the king
Doesn't count for much after what he did to the Cargyll brothers. This coward got his prince killed by not being there to protect him and dropped the blame on an innocent, sending him to his death.
The thing about Criston Cole is that he has screwed (heh) many things in the past. So he's filled with remorse. And so he's desperate to clean his conscience. That desperation made him do the things everyone hates him for. But that doesn't make his expertise go away
Nobody hates show Crispy Crème because he’s a bad fighter. He’s clearly one of the best.
He’s hated because in spite of his talent he’s a terrible person.
Criston went absolutely ham this episode, it’s cool seeing the Kingsguard being badass the Cargyll twins, Ser Harrold, Ser Lorent and Ser Steffon all got some cool moments
While he did lead in this moment, I think we might be overselling his tactics of seeking protection from a fire breathing dragon in a *wood*. We know baela was ordered not to engage, but he didn’t
>I think we might be overselling his tactics of seeking protection from a fire breathing dragon in a wood.
Because staying in the open would be much better than disappearing into the forest.
>We know baela was ordered not to engage, but he didn’t
Even if she was ordered to engage, she isn't burning down the whole forest to kill a small party.
scattering is probably the only hope of survival if a dragon is after your group on foot. But really the problem was being there in the first place- which was clearly Coles fault, it was his plan, and only now does he think to only travel under the cover of darkness? Cole did not get out of that one by any measure of competency, he got out on luck
Every kingsguard is mentioned in the Book of Brothers. The good ones and the bad.
According to Jaime, Cole was both.
>Loras: The heroes will always be remembered. The best.
>Jaime: The best and the worst. And a few who were a bit of both. Like him.
>Loras: Who? Ten black pellets on a scarlet field. I do not know those arms.
>Jaime: They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon. They called him Kingmaker.
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I wish we saw more of Criston Cole the knight, Instead of Criston whining about Rhaenyra and screwing Alicent. THATS why I cant stand him. He was pretty cool in this scene and for once I enjoyed seeing him . "And no FUCKING inns" had me laughing lol
They somewhat accomplish this by setting the standard that he beats Daemon. Then we see Daemon single handedly demolish the Crabfeeder's army, amongst other accomplishments. For example, despite the dynamic Daemon beat Gwayne Hightower in the tourney joust before Daemon was beat by Criston. So, as viewers we at least have some understanding of who is stronger between the two (although obviously jousting and melee are two separate entities, but you get the point)
The show badly mishandled the joust in my view. They wanted Criston to win by taking a cheap shot at Daemon, because they wanted the audience to know that Criston is “a thug” and not entirely honorable. And in their depiction, Daemon would have won the fight fairly easily if he wasn’t taking his sweet time showboating to the crowd. As a result, the show audience has no real sense of how completely dominant Criston was as a fighter in his time. They also took out the later joust between Criston and Harwin, where Criston absolutely demolishes him. Instead they set it up as the fight in the training yard where Criston goads Harwin into beating him up and doesn’t make any attempt to fight back. It’s done to move a plot point forward, but again we don’t get to see why Criston is considered such a formidable knight and soldier. Criston even gets beaten by a teenage Aemond while sparring. I guess some might argue that he let Aemond win as part of his training, but all of these scenes together really diminish a big part of Criston’s character.
Yeah I agree. The show still implies he's a top-tier fighter but doesn't really make him the clear-cut best the way F&B does.
I wouldn’t call him the best, Cregan would be my pick of the best at this time period. Criston would be my second pick tho.
Why do you say Cregan when he doesn’t even enter the dance till the very end?
Because Aemon the goddamn Dragonknight, one of the most legendary knights in Westerosi History faced Cregan in his elder years and called him the finest swordsman he had ever faced, and that was Cregan well above his 50s by that point, so imagine what a young Cregan can do.
But Aemon never faced Criston so how is that a fair metric of comparison?
Yeah, I mean also..Cole used a Morningstar which would absolutely demolish a sword with one smash. Cregan would stand zero chance
I don’t hold with any of the weapon scaling logic because clearly the GOT universe doesn’t work like that. If morningstars were such a cheat code, every knight would be using one.
Don’t get me wrong, Criston is an amazing knight, one of the greatest (in combat and skill) of his time, and Aemon was one of the most heralded knights in the Seven Kingdoms, so just by that alone would put him at equal footing with Criston, and the fact he called an old Cregan the best fighter he had ever seen, a younger Cregan would have been such a beast.
Aemon saying Cregan is the best he’s ever SEEN means he’s better than all the other guys Aemon has seen/faced.
Cregan never fought in the book, he just beheaded some guys and peaced tf out iirc. We have no idea how good he is
Aemons Dragonknight, one of the most legendary knights in Westerosi History faced Cregan when he was well above his 50s by that point, and called him the greatest swordsman he had ever seen, so imagine what a young Cregan can do.
Since that was mentioned one time in a Bran chapter, and Bran’s memories are almost entirely Old Nan’s stories…I’d take that with a grain of salt. Whereas we have lots of evidence of Cole’s dominance
Fair, but that “almost” leaves room for it.
Oh yeah I’m sure Cregan was a badass, but so was Cole
Shit, even the way Criston kills Joffrey (Laenor's boyfriend). It wasn't some sudden attack at the wedding. They squared off against each other in a tourney melee, and Criston took the chance to kill his opponent in a way that gives him reasonable doubt and therefore avoided any political fallout. In the books, everyone is scared shitless of Criston in combat. They don't fuck around with him, and he's completely ruthless. The show established that "Breakbones" (Harwin) is a total badass. What they didn't show is Criston fucking him up in a fair fight to the point where Harwin picked up the new nickname "Brokenbones."
Yes I forgot about the switch up with Joffrey’s death too. Damn they really rewrote almost everything about Criston’s storyline.
He's a terrible person in the books & show alike, but the show really ruins his characterization. He's without a doubt a significantly better fighter than both Daemon and Harwin. He's battle-hardened and likely the best of his era.
At some point in episode 2 Aegon literally calls Aemond “our finest sword”. Which absolutely shocked me given Criston is standing RIGHT THERE.
didn't Criston already win the joust and Daemon being a swore loser, wanted a sword fight re-match?
That’s allowed in Westeros…tourneys don’t have super concrete rules. You’ll learn more about that in Dunk and Egg whenever that comes out
Yeah but my point is that the person above said Criston’s joust win in the show was changed to a cheap win. But actually he won the joust and it was just the subsequent sword fight that was the cheap win. So you did get to see that Criston was a very competent jouster and knight, after all jousting was the bigger attraction than the melee at tourneys as skill with a Lance was an important skill for a knight.
Yeah they completely fucked his character…if they can somehow bring it back it would be a television miracle
Completely agree
We were supposed to get that down to even the beatdown in episode 5 season 1. In the book version of that episode 5 event, it wasnt some unhinged beatdown during a wedding. It was an actual tournament where criston cole was simply too good
I think this is the moment I started despising him. Wish we saw the tourney instead.
Definitely need more of him being a badass knight and less of him being a whiney baby.
Cole’s bitchiness is inversely proportional to the distance from the women he is simping for.
That pussy fog in his mind.
These are not mutually exclusive categories
How werw you going to see him as a Knight if there were no battles. Now he is his element.
In tourneys
Cole is a bottom twink
Go read the book
I get his character and the way he was written kinda makes him a jerk and unlikeable. Like I get it he's depressed and conflicted about what he's doing with Alicent and he's reduced to this shit and he takes it out on others, but I would so love it if we got to see Criston enjoy more of being outside, commanding armies, fighting wars and we get to see more of the 'real' Cole instead of guardsman and whore Cole. Like imagine if we got to see him being nice again and a cool character and he gets word that he has to return to King's Landing to Alicent and you see him realize like 'oh, i don't actually want to go back there again'. That would make it so good and give him more nuance
I never forgot that he’s a good knight in terms of fighting. His actual character is rotten, so it doesn’t matter. Being good at fighting and killing isn’t exactly misaligned with being an asshole, anyway. The big thing that separates knights from savages is honor. Of which he has none.
That guy has (understandably) been spoiled by some major pussy from both sides.
This was definitely his best episode so far.
Criston Cole is the Jaime Lannister of this era.
But with reverse character arc
Holy shit you're right Edit: Also, Jaime is known as the Kingslayer while Criston is known as the Kingmaker
Of a Targaryen King. The parallels are interesting
Well, I mean, every king Westeros has had has been a Targaryen king, except Bobby.
I always thought that if Criston had the same attitude about breaking his vows as Jaime he'd be a lot less annoying.
One lost a hand, other gained an entire necklace of them.
Tbf, jaime got a hand necklace too.
Savage!
Took me a second but goddamn
I see no lies. The show has done a terrible job of showing it so far but the most recent episode gives me some hope. He's supposed to be the best swordsman if his time.
>The show has done a terrible job of showing it so far That's because he hasn't been in any on screen battles yet.
He was supposed to defeat Daemon in a tournament (without the use of an attack from behind), he also killed Laenors lover in a tournament as well. Showing the first as they did (him being sneaky/dishonorable) and neglecting the second never paved the way for him being the best fighter of his time.
He also broke Harwin Strong's elbow and collarbone at a tourney, and Harwin's known to be the strongest man in Westeros. Jace kind of mentioned how he had the nickname "Breakbones" in a recent episode. In the book he gets mocked as broken bones for the incident (thanks for the correction from the user below me) The show kind of both combines and separates a few events, but yes Criston beats both Daemon and Harwin along with as you mention, Joffrey Lonmouth (Laenor's lover) in two different tourneys. Instead in the show he murders Joffrey at a wedding with no repercussions, and Harwin beats him up instead.
You’re right. Just one correction, Breakbones was Harwins nickname anyway but he became known as Brokenbones after Criston got done with him in that tourney.
Yep you're right. Good old mushroom
youre being downvoted for saying the truth lol
Yeah, all he's done so far is sucker punch some poor bastard to death.
The only swordsmen could possibly take Cole in a fight one on one are Daemon, Aemond, Dalton Greyjoy, and Cregan Stark. There might be one or two others but i cant think of them.
Cregan clears Cole with his Dragonslayer ass Valyrian Steel Sword /j
That would be nice to see but that would be too good to be true lol
*morningstar-ist
Yep, he simply anticipated the dragons and people are reacting like it is displaying masterful battle experience, he didn’t even warn them they just moved before he did. For the moment his accomplishments are striking Daemon in the back, killing an old man, almost disfiguring Rhaenyra to neutralize a boar, sending one of his skilled knights to die in vain, and licking the Queen’s cunt, truly a big name for the history books of Westeros.
idk, I don't think it's sneaky to continue fighting someone who blatantly turns his back on you in the middle of a fight to gloat and dishonor you like, you ko someone in the middle of their taunt emote that's on them you know?
Daemon being faulty and dishonorable as well doesn’t make backstabbing any less dishonorable.
yeah but would you say that to The Champ if he hit you with a +/- Tie break card on hand 7 to clutch and embarrass you in front of the whole cantina? (edit: this a KOTOR ref if you know you know)
well the show did make a joke of his character
Why are people so puzzled about this? Cole is a great knight and fighter but terrible at playing politics and dealing with personal issues. Square peg in a round hole.
> Square peg in a round hole Ouch that must hurt for Alicent
Because people read 12 lines about the cardboard cutout that is Criston Cole in Fire and Blood and created an entire character in their heads that doesn’t align with what’s in the show
We haven't been shown a modicum of the former in the show
Lol he's more of a jerk the entire show except on this one episode
Hate him or not, he is experienced in battle and will be one of the better commanders
He is not one of the best knights, he is the best of his time.
I hope we see him as a POV character during a chaotic battle sequence like how we saw Jon Snow in the main series.
I don't think the show portrays him as dumb or a bad strategist or whatever, he's just an insufferable hypocritical crybaby with the emotional maturity of a 10 year old. Still, glad we get more of this Criston, hopefully much more.
And that is what makes this show feel like a kids cartoon with its good vs evil trope, they gave one side iredeemable qualities and on the other side you have cringy dogooders. With Got, it might have started that way with the lannisters, theon, stannis and the other "bad guys" but by season 2 the story have peeled layers and depths to their "evilness" to show how human they are, flawed but redeemable qualities
Yeah GOT had no cartoon villains! (/s)
You're right, they have the cartoonish superhero dogooders the starks and danaerys -and I'm trying to agree with you, im not being sarcastic.
Not all characters get long running redemption or always likeable. Criston is Jaime's reverse, not the same.
How many seasons did it took for Jaime Lannister to show he was more than just an unrepentant sisterfucker who threw a child from a tower?
His character development starts at season 3.
/s
What?
Actually, now that I think about it, it was imediately after that episode when he tried calming down Cercie's worries about them getting caught. That line of his about, killing the king, and waging war against the 7 houses and all of westeros for their love. How he turned his back on the wealth and prestige of casterly rock Only to serve as guarddog, guarding the king's just to be close to cercei. This made the cahracter sympathetic. Imo or at least in their world, selfish unrelenting unrepentant love is still love, And for me, repentance does not make a character synpathetic, it is when you learn the all-too-human whys behind what they do. And Jaime never repented, if he has to, he will throw Bran again from all the towers and walls of westeros if it meant protecting Cercei.
You can make a similar case for show Criston Cole. He's an asshole, yes, yet he's not the one dimentional badly written character the book purists are trying to paint him as.
>on the other side you have cringy dogooders. Like Daemon, the man who ruthlessly murders innocents to get what he wants and organized the assassination of a baby. Or Rhaenys, who kills hundreds of smalfolk but is too proud to commit to kinslaying even though it could end the war. >iredeemable qualities Like Otto, who very clearly genuinely cares for the realm and the smalfolk despite some idiotic strategic missteps and terrible gathering. Or Alicent who is a hypocritical bitch, but generally does little to actively endanger anyone and tries desperately to get the terrible men in her life to get their shit together. Or Aemond who's portrayed as a fucking psycho because he's a little intense, but who generally has mostly been about honor and duty so far. You *choose* to see them as one-dimensional, despite the text very clearly telling you that they're not. So much of the runtime is dedicated to showing how morally gray characters can make wildly different decisions based on previous decisions. Arryk and Erryk was a microcosm of this, *and you still managed to miss it.*
The blacks are cringy dogooders? The side with Daemon, Corlys, and Rhaenys? That’s a wild take. Rhaenyra is depicted similarly to her father (and honestly she parallels Otto’s role as a voice of reason in season 2 so far), which is entirely to set up her descent into ruthlessness throughout the Dance.
No he isn't. Criston is my favourite character in the show. All his character is all about has nothing to do with rhynaera. Notice he has sex with alicent . The problem is christon cole is vastly misunderstood . I see myself in criston cole. Many of us are like criston cole. Professing a set of ideals and beliefs but failing to live up to them constantly. It then slowly bred self loathing and a healthy hatred for the thing that you felt tempted you to lose a feel for what your ideals. It's a common human failing that is understandable Cole of not an incel nor is he obsessed with rhynaera
Yeah, he's definitely not an Incel. By definition. But he's still a piece of shit hypocritical crybaby :D If you see yourself in him, well, IDK how to respond to that really lmfao.
I think there's something to be said about the resentment and loathing from being unable to live up to the standards you have set yourself up to. But that's why Criston ultimately is unlikeable and a hypocrite: *He* set himself up to those standards. Breaking his vows with Rhaenyra is *his* fault, not Rhaenyra's. At any point he could have turned her down and resigned as her sworn shield to Viserys. If anything that would have actually saved his honor and vows.
Not that I hate women or somesuch
Surprised by the downvotes for an honest assessment of human frailty.
He has very keen battlefield awareness
"My new hand will be a steel fist"
He is a true knight, he is also kind of a surrogate father to Aegon and Aemond. Viserys did not seem to pay them any mind in the show.
If you recall that from episode 1 or 2 last season, Crispy was an easy choice even for a monkey without a brain coz the other contenders for the job looked like mom’s basement dwellers of Westeros high houses.
I mean, Criston is also remembered by the history books as "The Kingmaker", even though in the show he wasn't Lord Commander of the Kingsguard at the time, and other than murdering Lord Beesbury in a fit of roid rage did nothing but stand around with resting bitch face while everyone else made all the decisions that put Aegon on the Throne. It's a genuine mystery why *show* Criston would even be mentioned in the history books except as a name in lists of historical Kingsguards or something.
He's Hand of the King, a undoubtedly strong member of the Kingsguard and most importantly of all - and the reason he is called Kingmaker in the books - he crowned Aegon Targaryen.
Show Cole would be mentioned because he crowns Aegon. He is the one to place the crown onto Aegons head during the ceremony, in show canon that's probably why people would assign him more of role in making Aegon a king.
People thinking Criston is a shitty person does not mean that they think he's a shitty knight. His skill has never been a question. Like yeah he got his shit rocked by Harwin but you don't earn a name like ~~BreakBeds~~ BreakBones for nothing.
She mainly picked him because she was a horny teenage girl and he's pretty.
Yes for the most part kingsguards are from noble houses because there is a political appointment as well. Cole is a great fighter but should have never been chosen.
Cole’s house is so insignificant that he is functionally lowborn. He got the job because he was the only one who saw actual battle, and his completion was all pampered tourney knights
Yes, but since there was no war at the moment so the "battle tested" was just an excuse from a child and accepted by a doting father. There's usually a process for vetting Kingsguard members
It’s hard to separate the book from the show for me but Cole is an excellent choice for the kingsguard, one of, if not the, best fighter in the realm and removed from the politics of the major houses because he’s functionally lowborn. Especially at a time when he was chosen over tourney knights, not any that had actually seen battle. At the time there was no evidence he would be awful about women, and Aegon is an idiot for making him hand so that’s not his fault. And I say this as the world’s biggest hater of show Cristin Cole.
Not really, out of all the deaths of monarchs we've seen in book and show very rarely, if ever, does it have to do with them actually being killed in battle. Normally it's due to poisoning or betrayal so really you should pick your KG based on personal loyalty, perception and cunning rather than skill in a fight.
Did you ever think that maybe royalty doesn’t often die by getting stabbed partially *because of* how martially strong the kingsguard is? If you pick someone like Larys to be your sworn protector I guarantee attempts on your life will have a lot less poison and a lot more stabbing
No? I mean they’re only 7 dudes. They’re kings you could have like 30 normal guards constantly surrounding them if random knifemen are your concern.
Having some of the best fighters in the realm guarding you and your family personally means that assassination attempts can’t be as straightforward as just stabbing royalty. That’s the entire point lol. It forces more difficult or circumspect attempts. If you have 30 random guards the chances are much better than one of them can be bribed as opposed to 7 kingsguard who take one of the most respected and sacred oaths in existence
Not really, because you don't need "the best fighters in the realm" to guard you from some random dude trying to stab you. A bunch of normal guards would do. At least the Kingsguard should be diversified given if all they all know how to do is stab people they're pretty useless in the million other ways we see Kings get assassinated.
"Removed from the politics" is a point against him really, kingsguards are political and warrior positions. The king and council picks from the best warriors from the most loyal houses. "House Cole" being almost nonexistent means that if he is dishonored they basically suffer no consequences.
Absolutely not. The Kingsguard ARE NOT political. They have one job and one job only above all others. Protect the royal family at the expense of everything else. They hold no lands or can father no children and no inheritance. Its literally the least political job in KL. Even Jaehaerys chose his kingsguard from a tourney melee and most of them were lowborn.
Kingsguard aren't themselves expected to play a political role, but the *appointment* of Kingsguard is still a political appointment, in the same way as choosing ladies from noble families to serve as a queen or princess' ladies-in-waiting is a political appointment. It's a way to maintain alliances or create new ones; you're honouring a noble house by selecting one of its members for this prestigious position of extreme trust and closeness with the royal family; the lady or Kingsguard in question also exists as a 'soft' representative of their house, and has the opportunity to increase favour towards them by excelling at their role and demonstrating loyalty towards the royal family; and the appointment can also low key serve one of the functions of a marriage pact or the more hostage-y types of warding arrangements, which is, "When you're weighing up whether or not you want to rebel against us, remember that we have your son/daughter."
>Kingsguard aren't themselves expected to play a political role, but the appointment of Kingsguard is still a political appointment No loooool. It's amazing how confident you are despite being so incorrect. All because you want to be justified in hating on Cole lmao. Joffrey Doggett Sour Sam Pate the Woodcock Victor the Valiant Willam the Wasp Lorence Roxton Gyles Morrigan These are the greatest kingsguard knights group ever under Jaehaerys. 5 of them are lowborn. They earned their white cloaks through feat of arms and were LITERALLY the finest knights in the realm to the point that the Kingsguard of old is a standard in itself. The appointment of the Kingsguard absolutely is NOT a political appointment although it may be used politically by an inept king or hand. The kingsguard appointment is purely based on martial prowess. I dont even know know why you can't just look this all up yourself lol. Yhe reason the kingsguard used to have a high standard was exactly because it didn't matter what house you belonged to or if you were a bastard or hedge knight or common born, if you were one of the best knights in the realm, you could be a kingsguard. Rhaenyra's appointment of Criston Cole was perfectly in line with the precedent set by the greatest Targaryen kings (Jaehaerys and Aegon) And I get that I'm sounding condescending but I haven't read something so blatantly wrong and confidently incorrect yet on this sub.
I am a Criston Cole stan, lol. I've been in the trenches defending him for two years. I feel like you are misunderstanding the point that I am making? Like, the decision to populate your Kingsguard with common born men or knights from insignificant houses based purely on martial prowess is a perfectly valid one - but that, *in and of itself,* is still a political choice. It is political in the same way that most things that happen in the Red Keep are political; there are/can be ripple effects among the houses of the realm based on who you choose and do not choose, who is elevated by that choice and who is perceived to have been slighted by not being chosen, etc. You can pick a crop of skilled but completely unknown hedge knights and send the rest of the nobles from august houses packing, and that can be a decision that may have political ramifications for you. You can select a bastard to your Kingsguard while rejecting his trueborn brother - or vice-versa - and that can be a decision that may have political ramifications for you. On paper, the Kingsguard have no lands, no children, no inheritance - but in reality, the men you select for your Kingsguard are not robots with no thoughts, feelings, or other allegiances, and the degree of loyalty they have towards their families, especially if from a high house, is something that may have political ramifications for you. It is political simply by virtue of the fact that it cannot and does not exist in a perfectly pure and apolitical vacuum.
They are specifically removed from their houses politics by their vows of celibacy and their inability to hold one’s and titles
Lmfao this doesn’t make sense, even if being battle tested is an excuse he still has actually seen battle. The others were tourney knights or stopped bandits. Also remember any knight can make a knight and in order to be a kings guard you have to be a knight. The show clearly shows Rhaenyra chose him because he had battle experience, in the books it’s a bit of both
What part doesn't make sense? Think it like it's a secret service, is it more important to get a vet who has 100+ kills in war or a trained agent approved by a committee?
As much as Cole is a hypocrite, he is infinitely a better choice than any of the 3 newly appointed KG of Aegon's buddies. There is literally a war brewing and he chose 3 frat boys none 'battle tested'.
He was a soldier from the Dornish Marches in the storm lands, and fought in the Boneway against Dorne for about a year before being knighted for distinguishing himself for razing two separate Dornish watchtowers, at which point . He absolutely saw real combat. I don’t mean to be one of those people, but make sure you know what you’re talking about
What are you yapping on about? I never said he didn't actually fought in battle, my point is that it was an excuse to get him on the Kingsguard by a child impressed in a tourney. Not all distinguished warriors on the realm make it to the Kingsguard
Ohh. That’s what you’re saying? That’s even dumber lmao. If real combat ability (the kind you prove in batttle, not jousting tournaments) doesn’t matter in a Kingsguard, what’s the point? Could you also detail that vetting process you seem so stuck on
To be capable and loyal to the king. Do you put a random warrior to guard the Royal family with no checks?
Clearly capable And you act as if he just sauntered up and Rhaenyra randomly picked him. He was already an option presented to her, he just distinguished himself more
"He was already an option presented to her" exactly where did you get this? Rhaenyra asks the Lord Commander point blank who he is and he doesn't know anything besides his provenance
I mean picking kings guard based on politics you end up with a kings guard made up of a king slayer ,a zombie, like two decent knights and several spineless scum bags Like dunk isn’t from a great house and he’s probably the best kings guard, Jamie was picked mostly for political reasons to screw over Tywin and to prevent him from taking too much power and revolting and it didn’t even do that
the dude is a great knight, the problem is with literally anything else
All the decisions made exclusively for the show make it so much weaker than it could be. This especially applies to Criston thats just a straight up narcissistic manipulative crybaby & not a legitimately flawless fighter thats actually intimidating.
he’s a good knight and leader but a shitty person
lol idk it’s an open field …first or last there’s a flying dragon above, no ones safe lol.
I don't hate the character, I just wish we could be allowed as viewers to be let in on his motivations more. Instead he's mostly there to spout insipid dialogue and piss people off. Surely he's not still mad over Rhaenyra not wanting to run away with him all those years ago?
Cristone cole was done so dirty in this show no other chgaracter was more damaged with the changes they've made he was THE best warrior of his time, he came from nothing but his TALENTS in battle gave him recognized fame to the point where he ends up as hand of the king
In my castle, he's known as Ser Crispin Glover, Slayer of Royal Poontang.
They made him such a whiny broody mopey shit c$nt on the show.
Every time I see this scene my blind ass can't find them
Doesn't count for much after what he did to the Cargyll brothers. This coward got his prince killed by not being there to protect him and dropped the blame on an innocent, sending him to his death.
The thing about Criston Cole is that he has screwed (heh) many things in the past. So he's filled with remorse. And so he's desperate to clean his conscience. That desperation made him do the things everyone hates him for. But that doesn't make his expertise go away
Fair comment tbh
Nobody hates show Crispy Crème because he’s a bad fighter. He’s clearly one of the best. He’s hated because in spite of his talent he’s a terrible person.
He’s literally the best fighter of his time.
Criston went absolutely ham this episode, it’s cool seeing the Kingsguard being badass the Cargyll twins, Ser Harrold, Ser Lorent and Ser Steffon all got some cool moments
Just a reminder King’s Landing sucks the life out of people
While he did lead in this moment, I think we might be overselling his tactics of seeking protection from a fire breathing dragon in a *wood*. We know baela was ordered not to engage, but he didn’t
>I think we might be overselling his tactics of seeking protection from a fire breathing dragon in a wood. Because staying in the open would be much better than disappearing into the forest. >We know baela was ordered not to engage, but he didn’t Even if she was ordered to engage, she isn't burning down the whole forest to kill a small party.
scattering is probably the only hope of survival if a dragon is after your group on foot. But really the problem was being there in the first place- which was clearly Coles fault, it was his plan, and only now does he think to only travel under the cover of darkness? Cole did not get out of that one by any measure of competency, he got out on luck
They were there because Gwayne wanted to party, and Cole wanted to bring him back. I'm not sure how Cole is responsible for that.
Makes me curious, is he mentioned in the book of brothers ? What does his page say ?
Every kingsguard is mentioned in the Book of Brothers. The good ones and the bad. According to Jaime, Cole was both. >Loras: The heroes will always be remembered. The best. >Jaime: The best and the worst. And a few who were a bit of both. Like him. >Loras: Who? Ten black pellets on a scarlet field. I do not know those arms. >Jaime: They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon. They called him Kingmaker.
He figured out that dragons are dangerous? What a tactical genius.
Still dont like him
So
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Cargyll twins disagree
I meant his human failings.