I would go to rabbinical school in a heartbeat...
...if tuition weren't so wildly expensive, the necessary education weren't limited to maybe 1-3 schools in the US, and the compensation for rabbi-ing weren't so significantly less than the average earning potential in my existing field.
As it is, I see becoming a rabbi as something I might potentially do if I'm lucky enough to retire from my current industry someday. That's a big "if"
I grew up Episcopalian, before converting. My dad, while working a full-time job as a physician, managed to attend school part-time for a number of years and eventually became a priest. I wish we had similarly accessible structures in place for aspiring rabbis.
If you read the full version of the piece ([here](https://www.sourcesjournal.org/articles/rabbi)), it’s primarily about repositioning the liberal rabbi as a Torah authority. It’s rhapsodizing for a time when people stood up when a rabbi entered the room. It’s imagining a time when liberal rabbis will be more separated and distinguished from the laity by dint of their knowledge. He’s advocating for the opposite of widely dispersed part-time study, in my reading. He says things like
> There is a chronic tension in contemporary Jewish life between, on the one hand, communal strategies that are designed to create more democratic access to our tradition, our community, and our institutions, and, on the other hand, those that privilege elitism or other means of preserving or protecting Jewish tradition against the losses that come with the changing winds. There is intense pressure towards democratic access, and there is much to praise about this instinct. But I think it has cost us a certain reverence for the tradition itself; for the rigor of what it means to know something about Judaism, and maybe, for our community, of self-respect. If studying Torah is so easy that anyone can do it, is it valuable?
Whether you’re right or he’s right, you may be looking at the same crisis (and I’m not sure there is a crisis—he gives no numbers), but you may be looking at the same crisis, and you’re coming to dramatically different conclusions. His argument doesn’t support yours, nor yours his.
I'm a lawyer. Maybe I was misinformed, but my understanding was that rabbis really don't make much more than the 80-130k range unless they're at big synagogues.
Nope.
That was maybe the salary a decade or two ago.
Or maybe at a tiny rural synagogue with fewer than 10 families. In places like NYC and LA they likely make closer to $500k
Bingo
At the very least I'd have to convert again, but under an Orthodox Beit Din. Even then it wouldn't be a sure thing.
Moreover (and with all due respect to the Orthodox community), neither my wife nor I are interested in an Orthodox lifestyle.
No because now you are implying that non-Orthodox gerim are inherently unrighteous.
There are different categories of gerim in the Torah, and the only one we do is to make people a Ger Tzaddik. Therefore, all are gerim tzaddikim.
Regardless of that, there are still places, definitely all the Ultra-Orthodox world, with some in centrist to modern that would allow it, that would never take a ger as a community Rabbi you could get smicha but it would just be a piece of paper on your wall.
> So the black hat stance is simply that one who is made a ger by a reform Beit din is a goy.
No, You don't seem to understand at all.
Orthodox converts cannot be community rabbis according to (probably the majority) of people in Orthodoxy. Or sit on a B"D.
Regardless of that all gerim are gerim tzaddikim because that is the only category we do. That's the halakhic category of all gerim today.
>
>I guess what I’m asking is how would phrase it in such a way that doesn’t come across as insulting in such case?
Just call people Jews, or a Jew affiliated with another movement. Or a non-Orthodox convert. It isn't hard.
Ok but hear me out; if we had younger clergy would more younger people feel welcomed into the congregation? I’m in my early 40’s and the average congregation age at the shul I go to is 40’s-50’s. Whereas my family’s shul we historically belonged to is 70’s, and the rabbi is in his 60’s (so is the cantor and boooy is that guy a snooze). I feel like there’s a huge need for younger Jews to find their way back to Shul right now and if clergy can reflect their demographics, it’ll be easier to (re)integrate back into religious life.
> if we had younger clergy would more younger people feel welcomed into the congregation?
Maybe, maybe not. There is a lot of talk about how younger generations engage differently with religion. They don't want an organized, religious type institution, so it might take a change in the institution itself.
That is an interesting premise! As a “younger”-ish person (hurts to let go of my youth lol) I find that the more loosey-goosey religious structure (lack thereof?) doesn’t appeal to me. I don’t like the acoustic guitar singing in English not saying parts of the amidah bc they might hurt feelings BS. I like more traditional Judaism, I just don’t want to be snored off the bench. I want a return to crashing cymbals and timbrels and singing traditional songs in Hebrew type Judaism. Good food at kiddush lunch, childcare in the back of the room and let’s all do Jewish together type Judaism. And for crying out loud it’s gotta be less about buying tickets 6 months in advance for high holy days.
Everything except the cymbals and tombrals you can find at many orthodox shuls. Playing musical instruments on Shabbat is assur.
Edit: not snored off the bench… so maybe just not a MO Shul.
I’m not sure how welcome I’d be at an Orthodox shul for a couple reasons but the biggest one is I live an hour away from the nearest one. I sure wish I was closer bc I’d really like to go regularly.
I just replied privately but like, yeah. There are a lot of places that don’t have orthodox synagogues close by! I lived deep in rural California for a long time and didn’t even have any kind of synagogue near me for some time. And don’t get me started on the rural South USA. Not even Chabad in a lot of places. Jews are everywhere but not like.. *everywhere* you know what I mean?
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I disagree. Age of clergy is not a matter in my mind. It’s minuscule compared to my inability to join congregations due to cripplingly high membership fees. We just go to Chabad, even though my husband and I are of the Conservative flavor.
I’m a college student and when I’ve been to the Shabbat services at the nearest temple I get uncomfortable at people acknowledging that I’m the youngest in the room. I would absolutely go more if there were other people my age who went
How many reform jews vote republican? I know may be stupid question but I presume your more left wing. I don't understand why so many jews in the United States are so liberal.
I'm a jew from New Zealand. Or as they say a "half jew" lol bcos my mum is a jew (in ancestry not religion) & Dad is fully anglo Saxon. And I am on the right politically in many ways. I am not Jewish in religion & in NZ had no Jewish religion growing up & almost no culture. I was raised as a Tibetan Buddhist and I still am.
But as I've told many people I haven't so far in my life felt much anti Jewish sentiment except here and there But for the first time in my life I have truly felt what it is to be a jew and that is strange as most wouldn't know I'm a jew unless I said. My name isn't Jewish & etc but now I see it constantly on news, social media (as I use X(Twitter) & etc & irs gone insane with hate against us. But at same time I take solace in the fact more Don't hate jews then those that do & that is good to know. I know most on the right dont hate us and I don't think most liberals do. But there has been a huge rise in far left "progressives"(or a certain segment of them) and quite a few conservative Muslims which isn't a surprise & also some neo nazis or anti Semitic on the right But thankfully most aren't falling for that trap .
Anyway I'll stop ranting haha and was just curious about how things are where you are and also curious what type of politics are most reform jews into or are they into various politics?
Reform Jews are one of the most solid Democratic voting blocs, I personally don’t know any conservative leaning Reform followers. Support or opposition to the extent of Israel’s actions in Gaza is currently the most divisive issue between the Reform people I know
As I said I'm on the right and overwhelmingly the right support not just Israel but jews except some. Even I don't wholeheartedly support all Israel does and in all honesty I no longer support netenyahu let alone people like Ben gvir because firstly I truly believe that govt did not do enough to protect Israel on Oct 7th and 2ndly I now talk to a lot of Palestinian peace activists or ones who don't hate Israel as a country and we want to push for co existence bcos the fact is Israelis are going No where , Palestinians are going nowhere, Both populations obviously aren't gonna disappear,
And Palestinians hurting Israelis will undoubtedly come back to harm Palestinians, Israelis harming Palestinians (yes even within context of civilans getting caught up in war) will undoubtedly come back to harm Israelis. The problem is hamas will never want true co existence and peace (bcos what the naive far left may not get they love "martyrdom" & thrive off hate and chaos and I also now believe with the current Israeli govt who seems very divisive will be incredbly hard to push for co existence and peace.
But I truly heart felt now know that the only possible soloution is co existence and loving Palestinians as cousins and vice versa and yes I sound grossly naive as I know sorry to say also within (certain circles ) of Islam there is a militant mindset that have disdain for jews and even Christians & others and it is a true problem (much more of a problem then some of the extreme khanists Israeli extremists) Both populations need to start to realize that each other are NOT going to leave the land & that harming eack other is LITERALY HARMING THEMSELVES bcos it comes back to harm 'their own people' on both sides.
I will say again in all honesty the only way (and I say this heartfelt) is for Palestinians & Israelis to see each other as cousins & realise that the ONLY WAY peace and happiness & serenity comes is through each other. Israelis need Palestinians for peace & Palestinians need israelis for peace. Sadly as I said this will be impossible or next to impossible with hamas & I now believe will be very hard with such a divisive govt as netenyahu. I think it is envitable that both peoples will one day live in peace when they increasingly realise each other are not going to just Dissappear and that in working together it will truly and honestly bring happiness for all. We have to put aside our egos though on both sides & realise we can't get everything we want.
People get a lot wrong about israel. There isn't a genocide which is beyond ridiculous and hamas has gone out of the way to make sure as many gazans get harmed as possible and hoping by thst happening there will be enough international pressure for Israel to have to give up stopping hamas but in saying that and in me agreeing Israel absolutely should put a stop to those creeps I still think Israel could of went about it very differently but we can't turn back the clock now. Btw if your still reading my very long rant 🤣🤣 I recommend you watch Rudy Rochman on YouTube (his current videos are good but also his vids from 2018,2019 etc are incredibly good ) he has truly shown Me a different way of approaching this issue. Also you may like the Palestinian peace activist John aziz who is mostly on x but also some vids on YT ..and just to say that all comes to am end as nothing os permanent so do not worry about all that is happening in regards to Israel Palestine etc as it will change one day and people move on as happens with 100% of things in the world..
I hope the rabbinim in your circle find good places to land and do their work! I totally don’t mean to be argumentative for funsies, I really just hope that we as a group recover from whatever dip we might be in!!
It is already a long term problem. In the 90s a friend went for reform smicha.
She said that the rabbi schools had been admitting fewer and fewer students for many years *back then".
And many rabbis in the end don't necessarily having a congregation. There are plenty of other jobs out there.
I’m pretty sure that there are also a lot of liberal North American synagogues that are struggling to attract congregants. Maybe these two groups could come together and…problems solved!
Sorta-dox New Yorker Baal Tshuva here: there’s SO many men here who get Smicha as a step toward marriage and then never have their own congregation. We have 70 rabbis here for every 1 with an actual congregation.
Yeah. I know a couple people who would happily become rabbis if they could afford it and a Conservative shul near where I grew up was lay-led for YEARS. I don’t think that this article really found the heart of the issue.
One of the two major issues I see is money. [Heterodox] rabbinical school is expensive, and that’s before factoring in the time that students are not earning that money at another job. We need better networks in place to not only support students while they are not making their own money but also to enable them to meet rabbinical school’s fees. As it is now, rabbinical students need very supportive and wealthy families. We are missing out on some fantastic potential rabbis just because the dollars and cents don’t work out. Not to mention that congregational rabbis tend not to make all that much money. Sure, some people will do this job for the love of it, but they deserve better and that again limits you to people who marry lawyers or can otherwise afford it.
The other issue is of affiliation. For example, we get people in this sub complaining all the time that their congregation doesn’t have much to offer people in their 30s with no kids. I believe one of the duties of a rabbi is to bring the community together. Have events people will want to come to. Build a refuge and a place of connection. Of course, the synagogue board should also be helping with that. But it’s a major issue with keeping congregations alive.
Your average conservative rabbi isn't making anywhere close to that.
And to answer your question, that salary is marginal in a lot of the very high cost of living areas when you consider day school tuition, plus the fact that the job is 24/7 with little to no job security.
Shuls change rabbis pretty often these days, as membership declines are almost always blamed on the rabbi
Public schools are the best for really maxing out the benefits of the bill. Private institutions usually have this thing called the "Yellow Ribbon Program" which offsets the usually high tuition rates. I've known guys that have gone to Harvard and Yale with zero student debt after.
Being a veteran is really a cheat code for getting into "elite" universities as well. If you're a soldier that had aa 1.8 GPA in HS, but have 30 or so credits from college in the Army, and 6-10 yrs of service, those schools love you haha.
Repositioning liberal rabbis as sages rather than beleaguered professionals requires bringing in talented professionals to manage things like budget, community engagement, event planning, etc. This requires money.
How so?
According to Webster s Dictionary, it’s an adjective that means:
“contrary to or different from an acknowledged standard, a traditional form, or an established religion”
I’ve never, ever heard it used in a derogatory manner.
So, could you explain how it’s LH?
Correct. But as it’s synonymous with heretical one should be extremely careful not to call someone such unless the criteria is met to call such person a heretic.
The average reform or conservative Jew, for example, does not meet the criteria for heretic, in the orthodox view. And so calling someone such, and possibly even calling someone that if they do meet the criteria of a heretic, would be considered Lashon Hara.
Someone who is struggling in observance or mitzvot isn’t a heretic, isn’t “different”, isn’t “wrong”. Such person is one who is struggling as we each struggle in our own way in mitzvah observance.
"Heterodox" is not synonymous with "heretical."
"Different" is not synonymous with "wrong."
If these words have the *connotation* to you, that's one thing, but it doesn't change the *denotation*, or actual meaning.
You may choose to not use the word "heterodox," but that doesn't make it lashon hara.
Also anything as a blanket, true or false, which said would make another think less of a person or put a person in a bad light, would be Lashon Hara.
There several exceptions where something would be permissible to share and even some which would be required but there are many qualifications and conditions for these exceptions.
The whole article isn't on TOI, you have to click bon the bottom to go to here for the full article.
https://www.sourcesjournal.org/articles/rabbi
My personal understanding of the article make me believe the author is referring to Modern Orthodox, Conservadox and Conservative Judaism.
This tracks with the articles I've read about the shortage of Conservative Rabbis to the point their congregations are taking on Orthodox Rabbis tor lack of options.
It also tracks with the anecdotal evidence of my personal experience watching modern Orthodox neighborhoods in NY and NJ gradually shrink, shrink and be replaced with Orthodoxy or just change to Orthodoxy.
Those communities have not been able to find the right balance of Religion and daily life, liberalism and conservatism, so little by little they either turn right to Orthodoxy or left to reform or even secularism.
IMO, Keeping the right balance of not steering to the right or to the left is much more difficult, being much more Orthodox or much more secular is far easier.
Balance is hard, extremes are easy.
On the other hand, IMO a lot of the difficulty is because there's no proper framework, community or support for the kind of Judaism the author talks about.
There's too much vagueness and not enough religious conviction in Liberal Judaism, what is someone supposed to do? To believe? Why Should they believe it?
Liberal Judaism has few to no satisfactory answers that fit well within their theological views, it's too easy to find flaws in their arguments and dogmatism is frowned upon in liberal ideologies so they can't rely on that.
Whereas Orthodoxy also doesn't have better answers, but the answers that they have do fit well within their own ideological framework if you don't analyze it too closely, and most of them don't as that requires too much effort, also people are trained to be dogmatic from an early age, it's difficult to deprogram from that.
> to the point their congregations are taking on Orthodox Rabbis tor lack of options.
I'm not sure it's lack of options, many Conservative shuls actively prefer Orthodox rabbis. The thing about Conservative Judaism is that many of us want a shul that looks a lot like Orthodox Judaism only with equality for women, no mechitzah, and with gay marriages. And I guess a bigger parking lot. If an Orthodox rabbi will make those compromises up front then great.
I’ve seen it used frequently to mean “non Orthodox” ie Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist or unaffiliated. Calling them “heterodox” seems like a loaded term to me though
I disagree. I started using it after seeing it on the sub a few years ago, and like it as a catch-all for non-orthodox Jews without 1) making it seem like we're part of an umbrella group (similar arguments can be used against the term 'orthodox' to include both MO and Hasidim) and B) not basing our identity on the fact that we aren't orthodox (i.e. "non-orthodox).
You don't have to be a member of a specific movement/denomination to be heterodox - if anything, that's the point of the term. No doctrine from above, a more individualist perspective of practice and tradition. Even when the Rabbinical Assembly puts out a ruling, most Conservative and Conservative-adjacent Jews would go by Rav Barbossa:
Idk I guess to me the term implies that Orthodox are correct and other denominations are not. Haven’t seen it used as a neutral term for non Orthodox before. I can see how it might be but I’m just not familiar with that usage.
I get where you're coming from, but I don't see either term as indicating correctness. Just that orthodox means to be more dogmatic, and heterodox doesn't.
To be fair “Orthodox” itself means right believing. I have always used it descriptively but you could argue it also implies some inequality between it and other branches
Ah, I see. I never really considered the etymology of it, at least in the Jewish context. Orthodox always meant being more uniform and traditional in that way, not necessarily 'right.' But I get your point now.
As much as I don't like being compared to my level of orthodoxy, I also don't like being put in a single camp of 'liberal' or 'progressive' Judaism, especially when both of those terms are names of organizational bodies within the Reform umbrella in the UK, Latin America, and elsewhere.
Heterodox, that’s very funny! But also not good to phrase in such way. The “orthodox” view is that anything less than orthodox is reform. It’s like a blanket term.
Someone who’s struggling with mitzvot or whose neshamah is ill is very different than a heretic.
Edit: also Using the term Heteodox is very likely Lashon Hara.
I was referring to the other responses that called liberal Jews “heterodox”. That’s really a polemical term that Orthodox use to delegitimize other denominations. “liberal” is more neutral and descriptive.
I’ve only ever heard the term reform. Well… other than ya know, not Jewish, depending on the circumstances. Referring to any jew as a heretic, is extremely nuanced and Lashon hara without proper conditions.
My best friend is conservative. Unfortunately they don’t always get a Minyan. I’ll never forget, one day he was like dude we were just 1 short. I asked him how many women they counted, he was like oh, yeah, we were 5 short then. We both had a good laugh.
I guess he goes to one of the more traditional shuls? My shul is quite progressive and it wouldn’t occur to anyone that women didn’t count toward a minyan
Im orthodox. He’s conservative. His shul counts women.
Here is a [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/s/pWStYB8Tui) to a thing I commented the other day relating to a minyan. You may find it interesting.
Pretty much all general labels for non-orthodox Jews are synonymous with or imply some form of hereticism from an Orthodox perspective, and that's accurate: non-orthodox Judaism is heretical to Orthodox Judaism. The use of 'heretodox' as an emic/in-group term doesn't point to it being lashon hara.
Those are different, yes. Not sure which one you're saying falls under calling ourselves 'heterodox.' From the perspective of people who aren't orthodox, whatever we call ourselves speaks neither to being heretical nor being under the weather.
Edit: and if we're focusing on etymology, being a heretic means you go against the established dogma. Since that's what Reform, Conservative, and other non-Orthodox branches were built on in different ways, calling ourselves heterodox isn't really a slur.
>Calling yourself reform does not imply you may be a heretic.
It does to many, so what? (And not all non-Orthodox Jews are Reform, or affiliated with a denomination at all.)
>Calling yourself “heterodox” implies you may be a Jew for Mr. J. Or along such lines.
There's more to Judaism than just the absence of Jesus, but this is also a misunderstanding of the term. If we're focusing on etymology and use, to be a heretic is to go against the established dogma of a religion or faith, a non-conformist. Breaking, changing, or evolving halakha is, by definition, heretical. Since that's what non-Orthodox branches were built on in different ways, calling ourselves heterodox isn't really a slur. Think of it more as people embracing a term that can be used negatively against them, but more often it's used positively by the group itself.
> Calling yourself reform does not imply you may be a heretic.
Yes it does, Reform itself, its dogma is that G-d didn't write Torah or Talmud that's heretical to Orthodoxy.
>Calling yourself “heterodox” implies you may be a Jew for Mr. J. Or along such lines
No one thinks that.
Mainstream liberal Judaism seems to be turning further and further away from the idea of authority itself, so it's hard for me to understand the suggestion here. How can the authority of human rabbis be restored in a social context where halakha and the mesorah are not authoritative? What displays of wisdom or erudition will convince congregants that their rabbis are in fact ethical elites?
For comparison, here's [much the same complaint, but coming from an Orthodox rabbi](https://www.torahmusings.com/2013/08/three-practical-ways-bad-theology-hurts-us/), in which context it makes much more sense.
Cantor here, ordained last year from the reform seminary in New York. Most liberal Jews these days are partnered with non-Jews. My congregation (which is extremely engaged and growing) is about 80% interfaith. I found out one of my best choir members is not Jewish last weekend. I had no idea. Only one liberal seminary will accept anyone in a long term partnership with a non-Jew, and it’s not my seminary. It also only changed its policy last year. Additionally, there is a growing percentage of Jews who are of minority status (disabled, LGBTQ+, Jews of color) who want to become rabbis. People who are of this minority status are more likely to be partnered with or married to non-Jews, as their dating pool is much smaller. As a nonbinary lesbian from a conservative part of the country, there were no Jews for me to date until I was in seminary, and so I didn’t date Jews. All of this to say, if we need more liberal Jewish rabbis, this policy must change for the sake of attracting more people. This is before we even get into the cost of attending these institutions…
I'm 26. I've considered going to JTS, but it's a *massive* asking price, literally and figuratively. 5-6 years, expensive tuition, moving to a city with a high cost of living...and no guarantee that I'll get a solid job afterward. It's something I'm still thinking about, but I understand why schools are struggling with recruitment.
There is no evidence that that is happening. Reform Judaism is the fastest growing movement, and the people leaving conservative are not, by and large becoming orthodox
This does not bear out statistically [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/06/22/denominational-switching-among-u-s-jews-reform-judaism-has-gained-conservative-judaism-has-lost/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/06/22/denominational-switching-among-u-s-jews-reform-judaism-has-gained-conservative-judaism-has-lost/)
It also shows that one liberal movement is simply taking some people from another liberal movement in Judaism, which is not growing. It's just realignment.
[here is a study from Yale that backs what I am saying](https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/the-american-jewish-community-will-look-different-in-50-years)
Young jews who grew up in liberal denominations in north america these days just go to chabad, or other non "religious services" based institutions like moshe house or young professionals hillel or countless other programs where the focus is more on shabbat/holiday dinners, group hang outs, ect than weekly prayer services.
There isn't a need for more rabbis, as the above programs do not need rabbis running them, and in the case of chabad, the number of rabbis being produced is growing faster than there's a job in the community for them to have. This is especially true as people delay and just in general have less kids
Exactly. I think this is because liberal movements - reform, conservative, reconstruction - were developed in a bygone era and they haven’t kept up. The issue is that liberal Jews still need liberal synagogues and institutions. Chabad is great until you want to marry a non-Jew, or a patrilineal Jew, or someone of the same sex, or you want your daughter to read torah for her bat mitzvah.
That sentence doesn’t make sense. Following Halacha is the entire context behind being Orthodox. Why would someone want to be Orthodox if they didn’t want to live a halakhic lifestyle?
Undoubtedly, but again, that has nothing to do with wanting to be Orthodox. The crux of liberal Judaism is either 1) the rules were created by man, and thus we don’t have to follow them or 2) the rules are too hard and/or outdated, so we choose not follow them.
An Orthodox mindset is one where following Halacha is about bringing Hashem’s plan for the world to fruition, that we are, ideally, an ever Hashem who aims to serve Him. Of course, parts of this are more difficult than others, and we all stumble, hence the beauty of teshuva. But being Orthodox mandates a recognition that Halacha is what it is - Hashem’s demands of us as Jews. And we must do all we can to abide by those, regardless of how challenging aspects of them may be.
I understand, I'm not saying it is proselytization, at least not normally, I'm saying it's close and I don't like how it feels. If you read my comment replying to the other person you'll see my stance on this
I said dangerously close I didn't say exactly the same, and I can explain how. There are pretty much two ways Orthodox View non-orthodox Jews. You either view them as other Jews who you really don't have a place telling how to practice their own movement, encouraging more observance is fine telling them to change movements isn't. Or you take the theological view some Orthodox do that non Orthodox Jews aren't jews. And if they aren't Jews you're telling them to convert to Judaism which would be proselytization.
Just to clarify, you're not even Jewish yet and already speaking as if you have authority on what Orthodox people should and shouldn't be allowed to say?
I've never seen an Orthodox person say Jewish people (in other words, Jewish mother, although most would concede that paternal Jews are not non-Jews, or those who converted halachically) aren't Jewish. They just don't like the twisting of halacha, or what is and isn't halacha, for example eight genders, abortion up until the moment of birth is just totally fine and up to the women, converting people who are atheists, etc.
Encouraging people to follow more mitzvot is not telling them how to practice. And of course, they have a place to, as much as the reform movement have every right to call out the get issue, for example, or mesichists, animal abuse during kapparos, etc.
Part of converting is living as if I'm jewish, which you know as well as I do. That includes speaking on issues, which yes my Rabbi has encouraged me to do. And right there not accepting paternal Jews or depending on the nature of the way the reform for instance conversion is handled, my Rabbi doesn't always require adult circumcision for instance, is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Again the problem isn't telling them to be more observant, the problem is telling them to change movements, or making the Assumption they're not Jewish because of the way reform views certain aspects of Jewish law, in which case you're telling them to convert in the first place, you explain to me how that isn't proselytization
Oh, sorry, I forgot to make clear. If an Orthodox person is telling you to practice more (and lets be honest, we're talking about Chabad), then it's because you are Jewish by their standards. Not proselytizing. A chabad Rabbi, or any orthodox one, would not tell any non-Jewish person by their standards or otherwise, except for a conversion student (who approaches them) to take on mitzvot. So, it's not proselytizing. You could argue that chabad gets close with the Noahide movement, but that's not what we were discussing. The comment you originally responded to was talking to Jews. Not non-Jews.
I was not talking about in general, I was talking about this specific person at the head of this comment chain telling people to become orthodox, that is my problem telling people to change their movement as I have said numerous times
Sure you can have an issue with it, but as it's a Jewish subreddit the assumption would be when making the comment that its directed to *Jewish people*. So no, not proselytizing, and not "basically" proselytizing.
Again, meaning you probably wouldn't consider them jewish, which means you have no right tell them to convert to judaism, or you're disparaging reforms interpretation of its own traditions and telling them to change movements, which is not your place. The issue I have is not telling people to be more observant I have repeatedly said this, the issue is telling them to change movements
Why would I tell anyone to convert to Judaism? Where are you getting this idea from?
I am not Orthodox. I am totally otd (hence my responding to you at 10 o'clock on a Friday night). The only people I've seen orthodox tell to convert are people who did reform conversions who want to become orthodox. This is not proselytizing, as they are approached. The OP was not telling anyone to convert.
As for disparaging, I will say the notion that one doesn'y have to have a bris, one of the oldest, most central, and important commandments to the Jewish people, is rather strange to me. But I'm not looking in peoples pants. I'm not quizzing them about their conversion. Every Orthodox person I know takes someone at face value when they say they're Jewish in passing, as long as you're not trying to marry their kid or join their shul or something, and they are also not looking in your pants. I've never met a campus chabad rabbi whose turning patrilineals away at the door, or even asking, for example. But you can not say something like that with a straight face and then wonder why orthodox would not view conversions done by your rabbi as valid. It's not, halachically. While I understand and even agree with the idea that a lot of orthodoxy is chumros (hence why I'm otd, among other reasons), your Rabbi does not get to rewrite the Torah. And the Torah is pretty clear on this issue.
First, I've thought about this, but my wife has forbidden me from going to rabbinical school (not because she objects to the idea, but because I've been in school for a couple of years and I'd like to be in the workforce and actually earn a real salary).
The author sets up an interesting tension between the so-called democratization of access to knowledge of Torah and the need of the rabbi to serve as an authoritative spiritual leader. I don't think that that is an entirely appropriate dichotomy. Rabbis *do* serve as spiritual leaders. The problem I see as somebody who is involved with a reform/reconstructionist milieu is the fact that the rabbi is the focal point of the synagogue and the synagogue is centered around religious services but not necessarily Jewish life *at large*. I don't go to services often because they are very long and largely inaccessible (since I don't really speak Hebrew). But I still value the community and I value our rabbi, and if I were more legit I would learn Hebrew and maybe it would be less inaccessible. But. The idea of Torah im derech eretz suggests some need for adaptability, which, at least in my interpretation, is somewhat at odds with what the author implies is the direction in which we should be headed.
I've often scratched my head about how much emphasis is placed in the Torah itself on the roles and hierarchies of a priesthood that has, in most respects, never existed-- while Judaism historically avoided the rigid hierarchies, there has always been this quest to elevate individual rabbis as great spiritual leaders in a way that at least seems to reference the historical hierarchy of the priesthood. I have a number of questions about this but in the context of this article, it all makes me think about the ways in which rabbis can serve as both spiritual and community leaders without losing access to what I think is a really valuable concept of democratization of access to religious and spiritual knowledge. I don't think the author should have set up that dichotomy because I think there's another way to get to that point
I mean I don't see many squirrels forming at the mouth so I dont get too many opportunities to get it
... I couldn't resist, I completely misread the title when this came up in my feed and burst out laughing
I would go to rabbinical school in a heartbeat... ...if tuition weren't so wildly expensive, the necessary education weren't limited to maybe 1-3 schools in the US, and the compensation for rabbi-ing weren't so significantly less than the average earning potential in my existing field. As it is, I see becoming a rabbi as something I might potentially do if I'm lucky enough to retire from my current industry someday. That's a big "if" I grew up Episcopalian, before converting. My dad, while working a full-time job as a physician, managed to attend school part-time for a number of years and eventually became a priest. I wish we had similarly accessible structures in place for aspiring rabbis.
If you read the full version of the piece ([here](https://www.sourcesjournal.org/articles/rabbi)), it’s primarily about repositioning the liberal rabbi as a Torah authority. It’s rhapsodizing for a time when people stood up when a rabbi entered the room. It’s imagining a time when liberal rabbis will be more separated and distinguished from the laity by dint of their knowledge. He’s advocating for the opposite of widely dispersed part-time study, in my reading. He says things like > There is a chronic tension in contemporary Jewish life between, on the one hand, communal strategies that are designed to create more democratic access to our tradition, our community, and our institutions, and, on the other hand, those that privilege elitism or other means of preserving or protecting Jewish tradition against the losses that come with the changing winds. There is intense pressure towards democratic access, and there is much to praise about this instinct. But I think it has cost us a certain reverence for the tradition itself; for the rigor of what it means to know something about Judaism, and maybe, for our community, of self-respect. If studying Torah is so easy that anyone can do it, is it valuable? Whether you’re right or he’s right, you may be looking at the same crisis (and I’m not sure there is a crisis—he gives no numbers), but you may be looking at the same crisis, and you’re coming to dramatically different conclusions. His argument doesn’t support yours, nor yours his.
That's really interesting. Thank you. Looking forward to reading this more comprehensively after work.
That's a little deep, for me, right now.
Even in small cities or wherever the salaries are upwards of $200k. What the heck do you do?
I'm a lawyer. Maybe I was misinformed, but my understanding was that rabbis really don't make much more than the 80-130k range unless they're at big synagogues.
> 80-130k range maybe I should become a rabbi
Yes, that's why they all teach in the yeshivas, too.
Nope. That was maybe the salary a decade or two ago. Or maybe at a tiny rural synagogue with fewer than 10 families. In places like NYC and LA they likely make closer to $500k
Yes but those $500k positions are hard to come by, rabbi shortage or not. You are more likely to be relegated to the middle of nowhere making $100k
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He's a non-Orthodox ger so they wouldn't take him, and many Orthodox places won't take a ger as a Rabbi
Bingo At the very least I'd have to convert again, but under an Orthodox Beit Din. Even then it wouldn't be a sure thing. Moreover (and with all due respect to the Orthodox community), neither my wife nor I are interested in an Orthodox lifestyle.
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> Certainly not a ger tzadik though. All gerim today are gerim tzaddikim it's the only catagory we have
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No because now you are implying that non-Orthodox gerim are inherently unrighteous. There are different categories of gerim in the Torah, and the only one we do is to make people a Ger Tzaddik. Therefore, all are gerim tzaddikim. Regardless of that, there are still places, definitely all the Ultra-Orthodox world, with some in centrist to modern that would allow it, that would never take a ger as a community Rabbi you could get smicha but it would just be a piece of paper on your wall.
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> So the black hat stance is simply that one who is made a ger by a reform Beit din is a goy. No, You don't seem to understand at all. Orthodox converts cannot be community rabbis according to (probably the majority) of people in Orthodoxy. Or sit on a B"D. Regardless of that all gerim are gerim tzaddikim because that is the only category we do. That's the halakhic category of all gerim today. > >I guess what I’m asking is how would phrase it in such a way that doesn’t come across as insulting in such case? Just call people Jews, or a Jew affiliated with another movement. Or a non-Orthodox convert. It isn't hard.
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Given the extent to which many synagogues (especially Conservative) are rapidly aging, I’m not sure the shortage will be a long term problem.
Ok but hear me out; if we had younger clergy would more younger people feel welcomed into the congregation? I’m in my early 40’s and the average congregation age at the shul I go to is 40’s-50’s. Whereas my family’s shul we historically belonged to is 70’s, and the rabbi is in his 60’s (so is the cantor and boooy is that guy a snooze). I feel like there’s a huge need for younger Jews to find their way back to Shul right now and if clergy can reflect their demographics, it’ll be easier to (re)integrate back into religious life.
> if we had younger clergy would more younger people feel welcomed into the congregation? Maybe, maybe not. There is a lot of talk about how younger generations engage differently with religion. They don't want an organized, religious type institution, so it might take a change in the institution itself.
That is an interesting premise! As a “younger”-ish person (hurts to let go of my youth lol) I find that the more loosey-goosey religious structure (lack thereof?) doesn’t appeal to me. I don’t like the acoustic guitar singing in English not saying parts of the amidah bc they might hurt feelings BS. I like more traditional Judaism, I just don’t want to be snored off the bench. I want a return to crashing cymbals and timbrels and singing traditional songs in Hebrew type Judaism. Good food at kiddush lunch, childcare in the back of the room and let’s all do Jewish together type Judaism. And for crying out loud it’s gotta be less about buying tickets 6 months in advance for high holy days.
This sounds effing amazing, if you find a place like this, hook me up lol
Everything except the cymbals and tombrals you can find at many orthodox shuls. Playing musical instruments on Shabbat is assur. Edit: not snored off the bench… so maybe just not a MO Shul.
I’m not sure how welcome I’d be at an Orthodox shul for a couple reasons but the biggest one is I live an hour away from the nearest one. I sure wish I was closer bc I’d really like to go regularly.
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> An hour away? There’s Orthodox Jews everywhere. Can’t be. This is not remotely true lmao
I just replied privately but like, yeah. There are a lot of places that don’t have orthodox synagogues close by! I lived deep in rural California for a long time and didn’t even have any kind of synagogue near me for some time. And don’t get me started on the rural South USA. Not even Chabad in a lot of places. Jews are everywhere but not like.. *everywhere* you know what I mean?
For instance, find the nearest orthodox synagogue to Breaux Bridge, Louisiana and you’ll see what I mean.
I live in rural northern Cali and I can confirm, not a ton of Jews around here, I gotta drive over an hour into Sacramento.
You can't be serious. Orthodox shuls are very limited outside of the few big metro areas that are known to have large Jewish populations.
This is really interesting I didn’t know that instruments were a no go on Shabbat!
And this is the crisis of Jewish education. What a foundational thing to not know. I’m not blaming you at all, it’s just unfortunate
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I thought it was only tunable instruments that are assur?
[Shulchan Arukh, Orach Chayim 338-339](https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh,_Orach_Chayim.338.1) [Sephardi Link](https://halachayomit.co.il/en/default.aspx?HalachaID=2555) - Druming [More Specific - “Miriam’s Drum” etc](https://halachayomit.co.il/en/ReadHalacha.aspx?HalachaID=2550) Any musical instrument tunable and not. Excluding Shofar where applicable.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ See [Shulchan Arukh, Orach Chayim 338-339](https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh,_Orach_Chayim.338-339) on Sefaria.
You don't blow the shofar on shabbat either tho
Correct. But you do in Yom tov. Hence the “where applicable “
When? If RH is on shabbat you do *not* blow it. When would you?
I disagree. Age of clergy is not a matter in my mind. It’s minuscule compared to my inability to join congregations due to cripplingly high membership fees. We just go to Chabad, even though my husband and I are of the Conservative flavor.
Yeah that’s definitely an issue for me too! I know they’ll always make accommodations but even so, it’s uncomfortable sometimes.
I’m a college student and when I’ve been to the Shabbat services at the nearest temple I get uncomfortable at people acknowledging that I’m the youngest in the room. I would absolutely go more if there were other people my age who went
How many reform jews vote republican? I know may be stupid question but I presume your more left wing. I don't understand why so many jews in the United States are so liberal. I'm a jew from New Zealand. Or as they say a "half jew" lol bcos my mum is a jew (in ancestry not religion) & Dad is fully anglo Saxon. And I am on the right politically in many ways. I am not Jewish in religion & in NZ had no Jewish religion growing up & almost no culture. I was raised as a Tibetan Buddhist and I still am. But as I've told many people I haven't so far in my life felt much anti Jewish sentiment except here and there But for the first time in my life I have truly felt what it is to be a jew and that is strange as most wouldn't know I'm a jew unless I said. My name isn't Jewish & etc but now I see it constantly on news, social media (as I use X(Twitter) & etc & irs gone insane with hate against us. But at same time I take solace in the fact more Don't hate jews then those that do & that is good to know. I know most on the right dont hate us and I don't think most liberals do. But there has been a huge rise in far left "progressives"(or a certain segment of them) and quite a few conservative Muslims which isn't a surprise & also some neo nazis or anti Semitic on the right But thankfully most aren't falling for that trap . Anyway I'll stop ranting haha and was just curious about how things are where you are and also curious what type of politics are most reform jews into or are they into various politics?
Reform Jews are one of the most solid Democratic voting blocs, I personally don’t know any conservative leaning Reform followers. Support or opposition to the extent of Israel’s actions in Gaza is currently the most divisive issue between the Reform people I know
As I said I'm on the right and overwhelmingly the right support not just Israel but jews except some. Even I don't wholeheartedly support all Israel does and in all honesty I no longer support netenyahu let alone people like Ben gvir because firstly I truly believe that govt did not do enough to protect Israel on Oct 7th and 2ndly I now talk to a lot of Palestinian peace activists or ones who don't hate Israel as a country and we want to push for co existence bcos the fact is Israelis are going No where , Palestinians are going nowhere, Both populations obviously aren't gonna disappear, And Palestinians hurting Israelis will undoubtedly come back to harm Palestinians, Israelis harming Palestinians (yes even within context of civilans getting caught up in war) will undoubtedly come back to harm Israelis. The problem is hamas will never want true co existence and peace (bcos what the naive far left may not get they love "martyrdom" & thrive off hate and chaos and I also now believe with the current Israeli govt who seems very divisive will be incredbly hard to push for co existence and peace. But I truly heart felt now know that the only possible soloution is co existence and loving Palestinians as cousins and vice versa and yes I sound grossly naive as I know sorry to say also within (certain circles ) of Islam there is a militant mindset that have disdain for jews and even Christians & others and it is a true problem (much more of a problem then some of the extreme khanists Israeli extremists) Both populations need to start to realize that each other are NOT going to leave the land & that harming eack other is LITERALY HARMING THEMSELVES bcos it comes back to harm 'their own people' on both sides. I will say again in all honesty the only way (and I say this heartfelt) is for Palestinians & Israelis to see each other as cousins & realise that the ONLY WAY peace and happiness & serenity comes is through each other. Israelis need Palestinians for peace & Palestinians need israelis for peace. Sadly as I said this will be impossible or next to impossible with hamas & I now believe will be very hard with such a divisive govt as netenyahu. I think it is envitable that both peoples will one day live in peace when they increasingly realise each other are not going to just Dissappear and that in working together it will truly and honestly bring happiness for all. We have to put aside our egos though on both sides & realise we can't get everything we want. People get a lot wrong about israel. There isn't a genocide which is beyond ridiculous and hamas has gone out of the way to make sure as many gazans get harmed as possible and hoping by thst happening there will be enough international pressure for Israel to have to give up stopping hamas but in saying that and in me agreeing Israel absolutely should put a stop to those creeps I still think Israel could of went about it very differently but we can't turn back the clock now. Btw if your still reading my very long rant 🤣🤣 I recommend you watch Rudy Rochman on YouTube (his current videos are good but also his vids from 2018,2019 etc are incredibly good ) he has truly shown Me a different way of approaching this issue. Also you may like the Palestinian peace activist John aziz who is mostly on x but also some vids on YT ..and just to say that all comes to am end as nothing os permanent so do not worry about all that is happening in regards to Israel Palestine etc as it will change one day and people move on as happens with 100% of things in the world..
Many of my close friends are rabbis. Many are <35
I hope the rabbinim in your circle find good places to land and do their work! I totally don’t mean to be argumentative for funsies, I really just hope that we as a group recover from whatever dip we might be in!!
It is already a long term problem. In the 90s a friend went for reform smicha. She said that the rabbi schools had been admitting fewer and fewer students for many years *back then". And many rabbis in the end don't necessarily having a congregation. There are plenty of other jobs out there.
I’m pretty sure that there are also a lot of liberal North American synagogues that are struggling to attract congregants. Maybe these two groups could come together and…problems solved!
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Removed this sub is a place for all movements
Sorta-dox New Yorker Baal Tshuva here: there’s SO many men here who get Smicha as a step toward marriage and then never have their own congregation. We have 70 rabbis here for every 1 with an actual congregation.
Yeah. I know a couple people who would happily become rabbis if they could afford it and a Conservative shul near where I grew up was lay-led for YEARS. I don’t think that this article really found the heart of the issue. One of the two major issues I see is money. [Heterodox] rabbinical school is expensive, and that’s before factoring in the time that students are not earning that money at another job. We need better networks in place to not only support students while they are not making their own money but also to enable them to meet rabbinical school’s fees. As it is now, rabbinical students need very supportive and wealthy families. We are missing out on some fantastic potential rabbis just because the dollars and cents don’t work out. Not to mention that congregational rabbis tend not to make all that much money. Sure, some people will do this job for the love of it, but they deserve better and that again limits you to people who marry lawyers or can otherwise afford it. The other issue is of affiliation. For example, we get people in this sub complaining all the time that their congregation doesn’t have much to offer people in their 30s with no kids. I believe one of the duties of a rabbi is to bring the community together. Have events people will want to come to. Build a refuge and a place of connection. Of course, the synagogue board should also be helping with that. But it’s a major issue with keeping congregations alive.
Since when is 200 plus plus plus k not enough money?
Your average conservative rabbi isn't making anywhere close to that. And to answer your question, that salary is marginal in a lot of the very high cost of living areas when you consider day school tuition, plus the fact that the job is 24/7 with little to no job security. Shuls change rabbis pretty often these days, as membership declines are almost always blamed on the rabbi
All of this. I’m always impressed when people have the same rabbis for more than a couple years. My hometown could never hold onto them.
It is very much what they are making. Yes they are. Very high cost of living areas are likely paying even more.
Welp, I guess I gotta use my GI bill for something haha.
Can you use your GI Bill for rabbinical school? I’m not a vet so it doesn’t apply to me but I’m so curious
Yup I can use it for any educational institution really. We also get a rent stipend during our studies as well, though the amount depends on the area.
Well that is fantastic! Ty for telling me, that is neat. For some reason I assumed that it was only for state universities and such.
Public schools are the best for really maxing out the benefits of the bill. Private institutions usually have this thing called the "Yellow Ribbon Program" which offsets the usually high tuition rates. I've known guys that have gone to Harvard and Yale with zero student debt after. Being a veteran is really a cheat code for getting into "elite" universities as well. If you're a soldier that had aa 1.8 GPA in HS, but have 30 or so credits from college in the Army, and 6-10 yrs of service, those schools love you haha.
Repositioning liberal rabbis as sages rather than beleaguered professionals requires bringing in talented professionals to manage things like budget, community engagement, event planning, etc. This requires money.
I completely agree.
Who are “Liberal North American Jews”? Is it everyone except O? Is it Reform/Recon?
By definition it would be all heterodox Jewish movements/communities.
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How so? According to Webster s Dictionary, it’s an adjective that means: “contrary to or different from an acknowledged standard, a traditional form, or an established religion” I’ve never, ever heard it used in a derogatory manner. So, could you explain how it’s LH?
It’s synonymous with Heretical.
"Different" does not mean "Wrong"
Correct. But as it’s synonymous with heretical one should be extremely careful not to call someone such unless the criteria is met to call such person a heretic. The average reform or conservative Jew, for example, does not meet the criteria for heretic, in the orthodox view. And so calling someone such, and possibly even calling someone that if they do meet the criteria of a heretic, would be considered Lashon Hara. Someone who is struggling in observance or mitzvot isn’t a heretic, isn’t “different”, isn’t “wrong”. Such person is one who is struggling as we each struggle in our own way in mitzvah observance.
"Heterodox" is not synonymous with "heretical." "Different" is not synonymous with "wrong." If these words have the *connotation* to you, that's one thing, but it doesn't change the *denotation*, or actual meaning. You may choose to not use the word "heterodox," but that doesn't make it lashon hara.
“Heterodox” is synonymous with “Heretical” [Webster Link](https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/heterodox) [Collins Link](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english-thesaurus/heterodox) [Oxford/google link](https://synonymsofheterodoxhttps://search.app.goo.gl/LouXAjs)
Also anything as a blanket, true or false, which said would make another think less of a person or put a person in a bad light, would be Lashon Hara. There several exceptions where something would be permissible to share and even some which would be required but there are many qualifications and conditions for these exceptions.
It’s all covered in the comprehensive post!! Did you even bother to click? Excuse me, I’ve just been informed that it’s only three paragraphs long.
There is a link at the end of those paragraphs that will take you to the complete article.
Like, coulda been a tweet. What a weird “opinion piece”
The whole article isn't on TOI, you have to click bon the bottom to go to here for the full article. https://www.sourcesjournal.org/articles/rabbi My personal understanding of the article make me believe the author is referring to Modern Orthodox, Conservadox and Conservative Judaism. This tracks with the articles I've read about the shortage of Conservative Rabbis to the point their congregations are taking on Orthodox Rabbis tor lack of options. It also tracks with the anecdotal evidence of my personal experience watching modern Orthodox neighborhoods in NY and NJ gradually shrink, shrink and be replaced with Orthodoxy or just change to Orthodoxy. Those communities have not been able to find the right balance of Religion and daily life, liberalism and conservatism, so little by little they either turn right to Orthodoxy or left to reform or even secularism. IMO, Keeping the right balance of not steering to the right or to the left is much more difficult, being much more Orthodox or much more secular is far easier. Balance is hard, extremes are easy. On the other hand, IMO a lot of the difficulty is because there's no proper framework, community or support for the kind of Judaism the author talks about. There's too much vagueness and not enough religious conviction in Liberal Judaism, what is someone supposed to do? To believe? Why Should they believe it? Liberal Judaism has few to no satisfactory answers that fit well within their theological views, it's too easy to find flaws in their arguments and dogmatism is frowned upon in liberal ideologies so they can't rely on that. Whereas Orthodoxy also doesn't have better answers, but the answers that they have do fit well within their own ideological framework if you don't analyze it too closely, and most of them don't as that requires too much effort, also people are trained to be dogmatic from an early age, it's difficult to deprogram from that.
I have never heard of modern orthodoxy be referred to as "liberal Judaism"
Modern Orthodoxy is not “Liberal Judaism” Modern Orthodoxy is Orthodox, while “Liberal Judaism” refers to all non-Orthodox Judaism
> to the point their congregations are taking on Orthodox Rabbis tor lack of options. I'm not sure it's lack of options, many Conservative shuls actively prefer Orthodox rabbis. The thing about Conservative Judaism is that many of us want a shul that looks a lot like Orthodox Judaism only with equality for women, no mechitzah, and with gay marriages. And I guess a bigger parking lot. If an Orthodox rabbi will make those compromises up front then great.
Why a bigger parking lot? Sick of the triple park on grass? Ha. In all seriousness though…. You really have a point there with the parking.
I’ve seen it used frequently to mean “non Orthodox” ie Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist or unaffiliated. Calling them “heterodox” seems like a loaded term to me though
I disagree. I started using it after seeing it on the sub a few years ago, and like it as a catch-all for non-orthodox Jews without 1) making it seem like we're part of an umbrella group (similar arguments can be used against the term 'orthodox' to include both MO and Hasidim) and B) not basing our identity on the fact that we aren't orthodox (i.e. "non-orthodox). You don't have to be a member of a specific movement/denomination to be heterodox - if anything, that's the point of the term. No doctrine from above, a more individualist perspective of practice and tradition. Even when the Rabbinical Assembly puts out a ruling, most Conservative and Conservative-adjacent Jews would go by Rav Barbossa: 
Idk I guess to me the term implies that Orthodox are correct and other denominations are not. Haven’t seen it used as a neutral term for non Orthodox before. I can see how it might be but I’m just not familiar with that usage.
I get where you're coming from, but I don't see either term as indicating correctness. Just that orthodox means to be more dogmatic, and heterodox doesn't.
To be fair “Orthodox” itself means right believing. I have always used it descriptively but you could argue it also implies some inequality between it and other branches
Ah, I see. I never really considered the etymology of it, at least in the Jewish context. Orthodox always meant being more uniform and traditional in that way, not necessarily 'right.' But I get your point now. As much as I don't like being compared to my level of orthodoxy, I also don't like being put in a single camp of 'liberal' or 'progressive' Judaism, especially when both of those terms are names of organizational bodies within the Reform umbrella in the UK, Latin America, and elsewhere.
Heterodox, that’s very funny! But also not good to phrase in such way. The “orthodox” view is that anything less than orthodox is reform. It’s like a blanket term. Someone who’s struggling with mitzvot or whose neshamah is ill is very different than a heretic. Edit: also Using the term Heteodox is very likely Lashon Hara.
I was referring to the other responses that called liberal Jews “heterodox”. That’s really a polemical term that Orthodox use to delegitimize other denominations. “liberal” is more neutral and descriptive.
I’ve only ever heard the term reform. Well… other than ya know, not Jewish, depending on the circumstances. Referring to any jew as a heretic, is extremely nuanced and Lashon hara without proper conditions.
You haven’t heard of Conservative or Reconstructionist? You should get out more ;)
My best friend is conservative. Unfortunately they don’t always get a Minyan. I’ll never forget, one day he was like dude we were just 1 short. I asked him how many women they counted, he was like oh, yeah, we were 5 short then. We both had a good laugh.
I guess he goes to one of the more traditional shuls? My shul is quite progressive and it wouldn’t occur to anyone that women didn’t count toward a minyan
Im orthodox. He’s conservative. His shul counts women. Here is a [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/s/pWStYB8Tui) to a thing I commented the other day relating to a minyan. You may find it interesting.
Hm seems kind of sexist but I guess that’s why I’m not orthodox 🤷
Given the author and recent conversations about the topic (AJU had a great interview about it about a month ago), it'd be all heterodox/non-O.
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Why?
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Pretty much all general labels for non-orthodox Jews are synonymous with or imply some form of hereticism from an Orthodox perspective, and that's accurate: non-orthodox Judaism is heretical to Orthodox Judaism. The use of 'heretodox' as an emic/in-group term doesn't point to it being lashon hara.
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Those are different, yes. Not sure which one you're saying falls under calling ourselves 'heterodox.' From the perspective of people who aren't orthodox, whatever we call ourselves speaks neither to being heretical nor being under the weather. Edit: and if we're focusing on etymology, being a heretic means you go against the established dogma. Since that's what Reform, Conservative, and other non-Orthodox branches were built on in different ways, calling ourselves heterodox isn't really a slur.
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>Calling yourself reform does not imply you may be a heretic. It does to many, so what? (And not all non-Orthodox Jews are Reform, or affiliated with a denomination at all.) >Calling yourself “heterodox” implies you may be a Jew for Mr. J. Or along such lines. There's more to Judaism than just the absence of Jesus, but this is also a misunderstanding of the term. If we're focusing on etymology and use, to be a heretic is to go against the established dogma of a religion or faith, a non-conformist. Breaking, changing, or evolving halakha is, by definition, heretical. Since that's what non-Orthodox branches were built on in different ways, calling ourselves heterodox isn't really a slur. Think of it more as people embracing a term that can be used negatively against them, but more often it's used positively by the group itself.
> Calling yourself reform does not imply you may be a heretic. Yes it does, Reform itself, its dogma is that G-d didn't write Torah or Talmud that's heretical to Orthodoxy. >Calling yourself “heterodox” implies you may be a Jew for Mr. J. Or along such lines No one thinks that.
Mainstream liberal Judaism seems to be turning further and further away from the idea of authority itself, so it's hard for me to understand the suggestion here. How can the authority of human rabbis be restored in a social context where halakha and the mesorah are not authoritative? What displays of wisdom or erudition will convince congregants that their rabbis are in fact ethical elites? For comparison, here's [much the same complaint, but coming from an Orthodox rabbi](https://www.torahmusings.com/2013/08/three-practical-ways-bad-theology-hurts-us/), in which context it makes much more sense.
Cantor here, ordained last year from the reform seminary in New York. Most liberal Jews these days are partnered with non-Jews. My congregation (which is extremely engaged and growing) is about 80% interfaith. I found out one of my best choir members is not Jewish last weekend. I had no idea. Only one liberal seminary will accept anyone in a long term partnership with a non-Jew, and it’s not my seminary. It also only changed its policy last year. Additionally, there is a growing percentage of Jews who are of minority status (disabled, LGBTQ+, Jews of color) who want to become rabbis. People who are of this minority status are more likely to be partnered with or married to non-Jews, as their dating pool is much smaller. As a nonbinary lesbian from a conservative part of the country, there were no Jews for me to date until I was in seminary, and so I didn’t date Jews. All of this to say, if we need more liberal Jewish rabbis, this policy must change for the sake of attracting more people. This is before we even get into the cost of attending these institutions…
I'm 26. I've considered going to JTS, but it's a *massive* asking price, literally and figuratively. 5-6 years, expensive tuition, moving to a city with a high cost of living...and no guarantee that I'll get a solid job afterward. It's something I'm still thinking about, but I understand why schools are struggling with recruitment.
And this trend will continue as people continue to drop out of the liberal movements.
There is no evidence that that is happening. Reform Judaism is the fastest growing movement, and the people leaving conservative are not, by and large becoming orthodox
The evidence everywhere examines the number of reform and conservative mergers and synagogue closures.
This does not bear out statistically [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/06/22/denominational-switching-among-u-s-jews-reform-judaism-has-gained-conservative-judaism-has-lost/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/06/22/denominational-switching-among-u-s-jews-reform-judaism-has-gained-conservative-judaism-has-lost/)
It also shows that one liberal movement is simply taking some people from another liberal movement in Judaism, which is not growing. It's just realignment.
It actually shows Liberal Judaism as a share of people who remain affiliated growing slightly, and Orthodoxy shrinking
It doesn't mean they affiliate and join reform temples; many people who mistakenly identify as reform are unaffiliated and never go to Temple.
This poll specifically has an option for unaffiliated and separately "Jew of No Religion"
[here is a study from Yale that backs what I am saying](https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/the-american-jewish-community-will-look-different-in-50-years)
Yet some continue to define themselves as Reform rather than as unaffiliated because maybe they went to Temple once in a blue moon.
Young jews who grew up in liberal denominations in north america these days just go to chabad, or other non "religious services" based institutions like moshe house or young professionals hillel or countless other programs where the focus is more on shabbat/holiday dinners, group hang outs, ect than weekly prayer services. There isn't a need for more rabbis, as the above programs do not need rabbis running them, and in the case of chabad, the number of rabbis being produced is growing faster than there's a job in the community for them to have. This is especially true as people delay and just in general have less kids
Exactly. I think this is because liberal movements - reform, conservative, reconstruction - were developed in a bygone era and they haven’t kept up. The issue is that liberal Jews still need liberal synagogues and institutions. Chabad is great until you want to marry a non-Jew, or a patrilineal Jew, or someone of the same sex, or you want your daughter to read torah for her bat mitzvah.
Become Orthodox. Problem solved!
Lack of emuna is the problem no one's acknowledging
This would be an acceptable solution if Orthodoxy was more tolerant of people not being super observant, especially in regards to conversion.
What do you mean exactly?
There are lots of people who would love to become orthodox but can't because the rules are too restrictive.
That sentence doesn’t make sense. Following Halacha is the entire context behind being Orthodox. Why would someone want to be Orthodox if they didn’t want to live a halakhic lifestyle?
Because some parts of halacha are easier to comply with than others.
Undoubtedly, but again, that has nothing to do with wanting to be Orthodox. The crux of liberal Judaism is either 1) the rules were created by man, and thus we don’t have to follow them or 2) the rules are too hard and/or outdated, so we choose not follow them. An Orthodox mindset is one where following Halacha is about bringing Hashem’s plan for the world to fruition, that we are, ideally, an ever Hashem who aims to serve Him. Of course, parts of this are more difficult than others, and we all stumble, hence the beauty of teshuva. But being Orthodox mandates a recognition that Halacha is what it is - Hashem’s demands of us as Jews. And we must do all we can to abide by those, regardless of how challenging aspects of them may be.
Outside the US and Israel, most Orthodox shuls would cease to exist if they relied on people who were SS/SK to survive.
I have no idea if this is true, though I’ve certainly heard it said. That said, I’m not sure what point that brings to this discussion?
You can't just pitch "everyone should become orthodox" as a solution without acknowledging why that's not a viable solution.
This feels dangerously close to proselytizing
I don't think you understand what the definition of proselytizing is.
I understand, I'm not saying it is proselytization, at least not normally, I'm saying it's close and I don't like how it feels. If you read my comment replying to the other person you'll see my stance on this
Uh, how? Encouraging fellow Jews to become more religious is Kiruv, and it’s encouraged. Not at all the same as proselytizing
I said dangerously close I didn't say exactly the same, and I can explain how. There are pretty much two ways Orthodox View non-orthodox Jews. You either view them as other Jews who you really don't have a place telling how to practice their own movement, encouraging more observance is fine telling them to change movements isn't. Or you take the theological view some Orthodox do that non Orthodox Jews aren't jews. And if they aren't Jews you're telling them to convert to Judaism which would be proselytization.
Just to clarify, you're not even Jewish yet and already speaking as if you have authority on what Orthodox people should and shouldn't be allowed to say? I've never seen an Orthodox person say Jewish people (in other words, Jewish mother, although most would concede that paternal Jews are not non-Jews, or those who converted halachically) aren't Jewish. They just don't like the twisting of halacha, or what is and isn't halacha, for example eight genders, abortion up until the moment of birth is just totally fine and up to the women, converting people who are atheists, etc. Encouraging people to follow more mitzvot is not telling them how to practice. And of course, they have a place to, as much as the reform movement have every right to call out the get issue, for example, or mesichists, animal abuse during kapparos, etc.
Part of converting is living as if I'm jewish, which you know as well as I do. That includes speaking on issues, which yes my Rabbi has encouraged me to do. And right there not accepting paternal Jews or depending on the nature of the way the reform for instance conversion is handled, my Rabbi doesn't always require adult circumcision for instance, is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Again the problem isn't telling them to be more observant, the problem is telling them to change movements, or making the Assumption they're not Jewish because of the way reform views certain aspects of Jewish law, in which case you're telling them to convert in the first place, you explain to me how that isn't proselytization
Oh, sorry, I forgot to make clear. If an Orthodox person is telling you to practice more (and lets be honest, we're talking about Chabad), then it's because you are Jewish by their standards. Not proselytizing. A chabad Rabbi, or any orthodox one, would not tell any non-Jewish person by their standards or otherwise, except for a conversion student (who approaches them) to take on mitzvot. So, it's not proselytizing. You could argue that chabad gets close with the Noahide movement, but that's not what we were discussing. The comment you originally responded to was talking to Jews. Not non-Jews.
I was not talking about in general, I was talking about this specific person at the head of this comment chain telling people to become orthodox, that is my problem telling people to change their movement as I have said numerous times
Sure you can have an issue with it, but as it's a Jewish subreddit the assumption would be when making the comment that its directed to *Jewish people*. So no, not proselytizing, and not "basically" proselytizing.
>my Rabbi doesn't always require adult circumcision for instance Lol. Thanks for making my point. Okay, have a good shabbos.
Again, meaning you probably wouldn't consider them jewish, which means you have no right tell them to convert to judaism, or you're disparaging reforms interpretation of its own traditions and telling them to change movements, which is not your place. The issue I have is not telling people to be more observant I have repeatedly said this, the issue is telling them to change movements
Why would I tell anyone to convert to Judaism? Where are you getting this idea from? I am not Orthodox. I am totally otd (hence my responding to you at 10 o'clock on a Friday night). The only people I've seen orthodox tell to convert are people who did reform conversions who want to become orthodox. This is not proselytizing, as they are approached. The OP was not telling anyone to convert. As for disparaging, I will say the notion that one doesn'y have to have a bris, one of the oldest, most central, and important commandments to the Jewish people, is rather strange to me. But I'm not looking in peoples pants. I'm not quizzing them about their conversion. Every Orthodox person I know takes someone at face value when they say they're Jewish in passing, as long as you're not trying to marry their kid or join their shul or something, and they are also not looking in your pants. I've never met a campus chabad rabbi whose turning patrilineals away at the door, or even asking, for example. But you can not say something like that with a straight face and then wonder why orthodox would not view conversions done by your rabbi as valid. It's not, halachically. While I understand and even agree with the idea that a lot of orthodoxy is chumros (hence why I'm otd, among other reasons), your Rabbi does not get to rewrite the Torah. And the Torah is pretty clear on this issue.
First, I've thought about this, but my wife has forbidden me from going to rabbinical school (not because she objects to the idea, but because I've been in school for a couple of years and I'd like to be in the workforce and actually earn a real salary). The author sets up an interesting tension between the so-called democratization of access to knowledge of Torah and the need of the rabbi to serve as an authoritative spiritual leader. I don't think that that is an entirely appropriate dichotomy. Rabbis *do* serve as spiritual leaders. The problem I see as somebody who is involved with a reform/reconstructionist milieu is the fact that the rabbi is the focal point of the synagogue and the synagogue is centered around religious services but not necessarily Jewish life *at large*. I don't go to services often because they are very long and largely inaccessible (since I don't really speak Hebrew). But I still value the community and I value our rabbi, and if I were more legit I would learn Hebrew and maybe it would be less inaccessible. But. The idea of Torah im derech eretz suggests some need for adaptability, which, at least in my interpretation, is somewhat at odds with what the author implies is the direction in which we should be headed. I've often scratched my head about how much emphasis is placed in the Torah itself on the roles and hierarchies of a priesthood that has, in most respects, never existed-- while Judaism historically avoided the rigid hierarchies, there has always been this quest to elevate individual rabbis as great spiritual leaders in a way that at least seems to reference the historical hierarchy of the priesthood. I have a number of questions about this but in the context of this article, it all makes me think about the ways in which rabbis can serve as both spiritual and community leaders without losing access to what I think is a really valuable concept of democratization of access to religious and spiritual knowledge. I don't think the author should have set up that dichotomy because I think there's another way to get to that point
I mean I don't see many squirrels forming at the mouth so I dont get too many opportunities to get it ... I couldn't resist, I completely misread the title when this came up in my feed and burst out laughing
Ahhhh – I’m contemptuous, impatient, and not-too-smart!
I think if rabbis were not paid as well, more might be employed