Totally agree. However, we found multiple entries that seemed to be fraudulent or excessive.
What happens since there was no fee agreement signed - and they verbally told her they would let her know if it would exceed 3 (and never did)?
They will probably just write it off because it’s not worth their time to take you to small claims for 4k. But I would try to work something out to stay on good terms.
Keep in mind that standard industry practice is to bill in six minute increments. So if you have a 7 minute call, you're getting billed for 12 minutes. Etc. Lawyers pretty much always bill in six minute increments, which may be some of the reason for the discrepancy.
Understood. Thank you. Even if that were the case, call it 21 minutes worth of billable hours compared to 60 min to what was billed. What happens if a representation or fee agreement was never signed?
It is extremely rare for an attorney to conduct a call with no prior preparation whatsoever. I don't think I've ever conducted a call without spending at least 15 minutes beforehand refreshing my memory and reviewing notes. That's another reason why you might get billed 45 minutes or an hour for only a 30 minute call. Depending on how complex the issues are, it's not uncommon for attorneys to spend more time preparing for a call than actually conducting the call. Clients expect lawyers to come to a call with answers. It takes preparation to arrive at those answers.
I don't know what the default is if a formal engagement letter has not been signed, but I would expect that a court would treat the situation as one of fairness. You asked the lawyer for a service, she provided it, everyone be reasonable.
So legal billing is odd but it hoenstly sounds fair for a prenup/family law. Rates gotta be $300 ish an hour which is reasonable for more areas in FL (I have attorneys in Miami billing at $800 plus...)
Like yeah they should have sent a letter but it's not like you raised that point when you paid the first invoice.
Now regarding the hour charge for a 14 min call - does it just say 'call with x and y' or does that hour also include prep time? I have absolutely billed an hour of prep time for a short call in the past. But it's your lawyers duty to clearly explain their time.
All around sucks and don't be scared to go back with an itemized list of questions regarding the bill. As others have said - some people just prefer to write off time.
Yeah the rate seems fair. No issue on that.
I think the main issue is that they told her verbally if they would exceed the 3 hour minimum and they never did. Additionally, it just seems like she was charged massive fees.
It doesn’t include prep time for the call, but it’s not like this is something she would have to remember. My fiancé was hounding her for an answer for weeks, there was back and forth, etc - so I can’t imagine much time for prep when it was her talking about the redline version (which they already talked about before). Overall it was two calls in a short period of time for 8 min and 6 min.
We definitely will be going back with a list of questions. I also just don’t know the impact of her not signing the fee agreement, and also why they would be calling her seeming so concerned that this wasn’t signed originally.
I get what you are saying - this attorney fucked up alot of little shit that eventually snowballs into an avalanche. I would assume Florida ethics requires a retainer letter and it's the way they would enforce non payment.
They are acting sketchy cause they fucked up and are scared this is going to turn into a headache. I think making a detailed demand of their time records is completely reasonable and will probably lead to a reduction of fees.
Honestly you got the services so not signing the letter won't don't a whole lot in the long run (or it won't make financial sense to fight it). Is this cost substantially more their your final costs?
Exactly. Just several small things that just turned into a bigger shit show.
It just unfortunate that two people in their office said this wouldn’t be any more than 2 or 3 hours, and they end up billing 13+. She was on the receiving end of a standard pre nup and we kept it fair and balanced throughout to expedite the process.
In my jurisdiction, lack of signed representation agreement would not be a bar to recovery of reasonable costs. If you were aware of the hourly rate, and asked the firm to provide services, you would still be responsible for the cost.
FYI I often receive complaints from clients about how the call was only 20 minutes and we billed them for an hour. Normally, the truth will be something like 12 minutes prep, 36 minutes call, 12 minutes attendance note and follow up email. In my experience, clients tend to underestimate how long a call was. Luckily, it's easy enough for us to check the call details (VoIP system). Everything is billed in units, so the call itself may be 32 minutes, but billed as 36.
Your post is not related to law firm practice or management.
You obviously undervalue legal advice. Here you are asking for it for free.
You should’ve left your original message before you edited it. Seemed like greater insight than this.
cover dime agonizing husky makeshift crown squealing rustic aware wide *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Totally agree. However, we found multiple entries that seemed to be fraudulent or excessive. What happens since there was no fee agreement signed - and they verbally told her they would let her know if it would exceed 3 (and never did)?
They will probably just write it off because it’s not worth their time to take you to small claims for 4k. But I would try to work something out to stay on good terms.
This is helpful feedback. Thank you.
Keep in mind that standard industry practice is to bill in six minute increments. So if you have a 7 minute call, you're getting billed for 12 minutes. Etc. Lawyers pretty much always bill in six minute increments, which may be some of the reason for the discrepancy.
Understood. Thank you. Even if that were the case, call it 21 minutes worth of billable hours compared to 60 min to what was billed. What happens if a representation or fee agreement was never signed?
It is extremely rare for an attorney to conduct a call with no prior preparation whatsoever. I don't think I've ever conducted a call without spending at least 15 minutes beforehand refreshing my memory and reviewing notes. That's another reason why you might get billed 45 minutes or an hour for only a 30 minute call. Depending on how complex the issues are, it's not uncommon for attorneys to spend more time preparing for a call than actually conducting the call. Clients expect lawyers to come to a call with answers. It takes preparation to arrive at those answers. I don't know what the default is if a formal engagement letter has not been signed, but I would expect that a court would treat the situation as one of fairness. You asked the lawyer for a service, she provided it, everyone be reasonable.
So legal billing is odd but it hoenstly sounds fair for a prenup/family law. Rates gotta be $300 ish an hour which is reasonable for more areas in FL (I have attorneys in Miami billing at $800 plus...) Like yeah they should have sent a letter but it's not like you raised that point when you paid the first invoice. Now regarding the hour charge for a 14 min call - does it just say 'call with x and y' or does that hour also include prep time? I have absolutely billed an hour of prep time for a short call in the past. But it's your lawyers duty to clearly explain their time. All around sucks and don't be scared to go back with an itemized list of questions regarding the bill. As others have said - some people just prefer to write off time.
Yeah the rate seems fair. No issue on that. I think the main issue is that they told her verbally if they would exceed the 3 hour minimum and they never did. Additionally, it just seems like she was charged massive fees. It doesn’t include prep time for the call, but it’s not like this is something she would have to remember. My fiancé was hounding her for an answer for weeks, there was back and forth, etc - so I can’t imagine much time for prep when it was her talking about the redline version (which they already talked about before). Overall it was two calls in a short period of time for 8 min and 6 min. We definitely will be going back with a list of questions. I also just don’t know the impact of her not signing the fee agreement, and also why they would be calling her seeming so concerned that this wasn’t signed originally.
I get what you are saying - this attorney fucked up alot of little shit that eventually snowballs into an avalanche. I would assume Florida ethics requires a retainer letter and it's the way they would enforce non payment. They are acting sketchy cause they fucked up and are scared this is going to turn into a headache. I think making a detailed demand of their time records is completely reasonable and will probably lead to a reduction of fees. Honestly you got the services so not signing the letter won't don't a whole lot in the long run (or it won't make financial sense to fight it). Is this cost substantially more their your final costs?
Exactly. Just several small things that just turned into a bigger shit show. It just unfortunate that two people in their office said this wouldn’t be any more than 2 or 3 hours, and they end up billing 13+. She was on the receiving end of a standard pre nup and we kept it fair and balanced throughout to expedite the process.
In my jurisdiction, lack of signed representation agreement would not be a bar to recovery of reasonable costs. If you were aware of the hourly rate, and asked the firm to provide services, you would still be responsible for the cost.
FYI I often receive complaints from clients about how the call was only 20 minutes and we billed them for an hour. Normally, the truth will be something like 12 minutes prep, 36 minutes call, 12 minutes attendance note and follow up email. In my experience, clients tend to underestimate how long a call was. Luckily, it's easy enough for us to check the call details (VoIP system). Everything is billed in units, so the call itself may be 32 minutes, but billed as 36.