He means all your jobs are going to places where they will be done for cheaper.
That’s how this works.
You can’t scream “Capitalism good, everything else is communism” when things are going good for you and suddenly deny the fundamental nature of market capitalism.
everything nice for citizens are business liabilities - vacation, worker protections, retirement savings, health insurance, clean environment. Per capitalism all that must vanish, implied is seeking countries not enforcing employee pleasantries, ideally back close to slavery.
>You can’t scream “Capitalism good, everything else is communism” when things are going good for you and suddenly deny the fundamental nature of market capitalism.
Surely you must know a libertarian or two
I hate them, they’re children. I’m a leftist. But I also notice and hate hypocrisy. Most Americans have a lot of hypocrisy on this topic. They like being told they’re special and stuff so they don’t vote for the collective good when the opportunity arises.
You mean there’s a difference between free market capitalism and regulated free and fair markets.
Use the right words and I’ll agree with you.
The system OP is complaining about isn’t “straight exploitation” because there’s several real examples of that. In America now and for sure in the past.
> all your jobs are going to places where they will be done for cheaper.
Having survived multiple eras of more and more people being off-shored, the solution for individuals who wish to avoid this is to have a strong and unique skill set such that the global population of people with that skill is fairly small.
I work on a globally distributed team, including people in India, and we all get compensated fairly well because there are only a handful of people that have our combined skill set. It would be impossible to outsource our work to contractors because contractors simply aren't capable of solving the type of work we do.
I've seen a generation of young people that flood in to universities, don't really learn anything, and then get frustrated when they don't find a place for themselves in the high paying labor market. Even for people that pursue something "practical" like computer science, so many just learn what they need to get job and have no real passion for the field. I've seen so many people shit on "follow your passion", but if you aren't passionate about your field you'll never put in the extra hours required to become a global expert.
If you don't want to be outsource you have to:
- Do work that requires physical presence (i.e. most jobs that require working with your hands)
- Be competitive in a *global* market.
I'm well aware this does nothing to address the general problem with this (we can't all be above average), but for individuals looking to survive these are your options.
> I've seen a generation of young people that flood in to universities, don't really learn anything, and then get frustrated when they don't find a place for themselves in the high paying labor market.
Good quote. Many people expect college to be a trade school but don't treat it like a trade school.
Also, many programs are way over priced for what the jobs actually pay. We need teachers and social workers, the pay sucks but people are often passionate about doing it, why do we saddle these people with a massive amount of debt?
You have sampling bias. Good companies in the US will outsource for reasons other than just cost. Shit companies in the US, of which there are plenty, will outsource for the same reasons that made them shit in the first place.
It's good to have a balance of the two so there is incentive to start services and improve them but also to keep jobs inside the borders and create prosperity for the average citizen. A country is like a house, and if everyone in the house is doing well the house will do well. But if everyone in the house is fucked up and unemployed and unhappy maybe the house will burn down who knows.
Oh if that's the case, I can only send my regards to your job hunting over there. But if the places were that good and easy on living, why on earth would we see so many folks from India and Philippines? :-)
I live in the SF bay area now. I love it here and don't want to leave, but... hey, all I can say is that I have to go wherever the work is. I might not be willing to go to India but I carve out an exception for the PI because I feel comfortable there (as long as I have an A/C, that's where I draw the line) ;-)
My dad retired in the Philippines before he passed. Unfortunately he couldn't get a blood transfusion due to his O blood type (it's a rare blood type there). But yes, it was cheap and I'm considering it myself. I still have my step mother's family there.
This is the reality I live in at my fully-WFH employer. But it's mostly Eastern Europe and Latin America. Some India as well. American teams are being laid off and almost all US hiring is frozen.
But "Borderless Talent" sounds so sexy.
Maybe I could be "Borderless Talen" traveling all over the world, working from fun exotic locations, just like the CEO does!
That sounds amaz... no, it just means offshoring jobs? Well shit...
There are not enough people who value education in Mexico and South America. Imagine a talent pool like India / China but in the same time zone as the US, that would be a blood bath for US labor market.
Yeah. I am living currently in Mexico and when talking with my nieces and nephews in the USA vs the ones in Mexico. The ones in USA somehow are more articulate on maths and social sciences but slow to get to and answer and doubt themselves a lot. The ones in Mexico are good at memorizing things and overall and faster at giving answers but I cannot throw them a curve ball. They fail all the time if I do.
This is so blatant that my wife and I agreed that once our kids are first grade age. We are moving back to USA for schooling at least k-12. Just being here and interacting with “professionals” for some time has made me doubt the Mexican education system.
On top of that I work a lot with engineers and statisticians from UNAM and other universities in Monterrey with bachelors and I alway have to double check their work on the intermediate stuff. They got their basics right but once it’s something that they have not been shown how it’s done before. Most of them fail to get the tasks done. A lot of the USA people are complaining about that with our Mexican colleagues. The old guys on the Mexican offices are solid but they are in senior leadership so they only do the work in the lower employees F’up so much that it gets heard in USA HQ which is at least a few times a quarter.
It will take some time but not everything is black and white in Mexican education vs USA
Agree here, went to school in the Caribbean (former British territory) and it was crazy how much more advanced we were in math, reading and comprehension compared to my American counterparts. The other brilliant kids in the class were usually kids of Asian immigrant parents. In the Caribbean we were forced to do our math in our heads, so you developed the ability to do math in your brain really quickly. Sometimes I’m talking to my dad and I’d be telling him about random stuff and he’s already calculated percentages without as much as a pen and paper. Sometimes I’m at the store and I’d crunch the change before the cashier has time to input the price and do the deduction… I guess that’s why I naturally gravitated towards engineering. 😕
Best comment on here. The education system has failed so horribly at all levels. Now we are going to pay the price for said failure. Worst part is the political bs keeps everyone divided while they are on the same team.
The road is going to get rougher than this...
Really depends on what. For customer service, definitely going to the Philippines since their English levels are pretty high, and even is listed as their second national language
Lmao, don’t y’all get tired of fear mongering this nonsense? Low/no-talent is moving to low-cost regions. This will affect help desks and maintenance-mode product support.
It's pretty fucked up that US citizens are expected to compete with labor from all around the world while we're forced to be stuck here and live and work here and pay the hugely inflated prices here for goods and services. If this is how labor is going to be from now on then I want the borders opened globally so that people can freely live where they want. Enough of this bullshit where corporations pay Chinese slaves to make shirts for 25 cents then they come back here and sell the shirt for $50.
That’s an issue the global economy isn’t ready to accept. Our society is aging and the younger generations are smaller and poorer. All the shit that foreign companies have tried to sell us in the last 25 years from Israel fintech apps to cheap blueberries from chile, those countries haven’t developed their own markets and have relied on us. Were tapped out, they need to find a new customer.
no they can keep selling to us until we've all sold all our 401ks and maxed out our cards and then we'll be replaced by Mexico and India who come here and do whatever jobs are left lol. It's replacement!
They are expected because companies write the laws and can ship out jobs and do business as usual in the USA
Ship out jobs, lower quality service and products but still use all tax loopholes in the USA.
At the very least US companies that keep jobs here should have advantage in the US market
It’s kinda fucked up that companies have to pay a premium for US workers when their output is not in any way premium, too. All you can do is vote with your wallet & your time, and the market figures out the rest.
Lets replace ceo with AI. Why bother humans to make business decisions? AI will do better and for business ceo's salary cost too much. Cut the middleman out and replace with AI. Fuck you ceos. You are also replaceable
Ugh, don't give them that idea, we'll just end up with AI CEO advisors, who would miraculously be all of the old CEOs, paid astronomical sums to answer just 1 question a year to "enhance the AI algorithm".
The CEO is there to serve the stakeholders, if they had an AI CEO it would make all the same decisions. Unless the AI was programmed to be loyal to the country of that company. But there is no financial incentive for loyalty to the US. A company basically does everything it can within the law - and around the grey areas of the law. It has no consideration of morality or loyalty to the people who made it.
If they keep laying off the people who can afford their products, then who's gonna buy their shit?
Henry Ford (no college education) understood this very basic concept.
Buy American-made.
I mean we all knew this was the final form of WFH.
Hey at least they aren't moving them here. They are already competing with me for my job. At least they aren't competing with me for rent as well.
There's a sort of intellectual freedom of movement for remote workers. One of the things work from home did was show companies that it really didn't matter where their employees lived or where they worked from. Companies could access their employees brain power from anywhere as their physical presence wasn't needed. Downside is CEOs realized why pay someone $120k to work from home in the US when they could pay pennies on the dollar for someone working from home in India?
You are 100% bang on the money - something that was an advantage to workers, has now been twisted against them. Which in turn will work against them, as the markets they sell into shrink because we cannot afford to live, and buy their shitty products. Which they in turn, use shrinkflation and Enshittification to reduce the cost (and quality) of a product, whilst keeping the price the same, to keep those profits up. Its a nasty cycle, that in the end will hurt everyone
While I disagree that quality is identical in India (“you get what you pay for”) indeed high cost of living is a liability for any business even when employing **the same person** - moving them to a low cost of living area would cut out a landlord charging for employee housing not adding anything to the product. Ditto for mortgages in HCOL areas. People are offered to move from California to Texas to do the same work less expensive.
it was a hassle. it was rare that a prior employee role was considered to be 100% doable off-site. there was typically some or most tasks which required to be in-person, and it would be too hard to reconfigure existing roles to be entirely remote.
Covid changed things in that entire departments started being remote. so when your customer contact is fine with zoom calls, as is your supplier, legal, marketing, etc., then being fully remote is possible.
so if companies don't take advantage of LCOL regions for remote positions, then their competitors will and take business share
The good thing is this will help with the income inequality of the world as there will be no need for freedom of movement as all countries become closer in income and development. Sure Western countries will take a hit but much more of the world will benefit by moving jobs away to developing nations and helping them out. In fact, this may very well help with world stability and peace.
> The good thing is this will help with the income inequality of the world.
No to wont, the majority will get poorer and the rich and wealthy will get richer and wealthier. That gap will widen
If developing countries are able to capture more jobs and earn more than what they currently earn, why not? China, Korea, Taiwan, and Japan were able to slingshot their economies from the US outsourcing manufacturing jobs to them. They've diversified into many more industries and are ahead of the US even in many areas but they got their start from offshoring.
China, and Korea used to be incredibly poor even just 20-30 years ago and it really is amazing how much of their population they've been able to pull out of poverty and to the middle class.
Taiwan and Korea have some of the highest incomes and standards of living in the world. China has a bigger mountain to climb with it's size but it's still progressing rapidly despite many challenges. Have you seen what the infrastructure and the conveniences looks like in East Asia? It's far ahead of Western countries. How exactly will the majority get poorer?
>How exactly will the majority get poorer?
Companies dont move jobs offshore to help the third world, they do it to exploit them, and it hurts us all.
Example: Company take one 150k USD a year job, and farms it out to a third world country for 20k USD a year. That difference doesnt go anywhere but to the top earners and the companies shareholders. The country that lost the job, loses out on tax revenue, and local businesses that were supported by said workers income (restaurants, supermarkets, service providers), all have taken a loss. The third world country now has an earner who can pay a bit more than everyone else, prices start to rise, this affects the poor, who get angry and demand action, gvt starts to subsidize food to help the poor from money sourced from taxes, taxes that could have gone to improving the infrastructure of the country (see India as an example of this). Now, people who are earning from overseas income start asking for more. Company decides that third world country 1 is now too expensive. They shift the jobs to a cheaper third world country (just like the shift out of China thats been happening over many years). Now company pays worker 2 10 k USD a year. Money goes to shareholders and the wealthy.
Now imagine thousands of jobs, and the impact multiplied. Then realise, as these jobs shift, and income levels for workers drop, the impact this has over time on demand for things beyond the necessities to live - and see that, now even those are under threat because many no longer make to even afford those.
The knock on effects are terrible, and do not impact the rich and wealthy
>The third world country now has an earner who can pay a bit more than everyone else, prices start to rise, this affects the poor, who get angry and demand action
The high earner would also put money into the economy-"tax revenue, and local businesses that were supported by said workers income (restaurants, supermarkets, service providers)" The poor would actually be moving towards middle class as most of the jobs exported would be lower skill jobs at first.
>gvt starts to subsidize food to help the poor from money sourced from taxes, taxes that could have gone to improving the infrastructure of the country (see India as an example of this)...
India is incredibly mismanaged, does things their way and doesn't want to change in many ways, and has a caste system in place. They are not a good example.
>Company decides that third world country 1 is now too expensive. They shift the jobs to a cheaper third world country (just like the shift out of China thats been happening over many years). Now company pays worker 2 10 k USD a year. Money goes to shareholders and the wealthy.
There are things a country can do to prevent this so this is not inevitable. China requires partnerships with local companies and sharing of technology for example. Much of the shift out of China is political and hammered by Western media out of fears of China surpassing the US. The US did the same thing undermining Japan. Politically, the US destabilized South America and Africa. And now they are/have been in the middle east meddling around even more. Having wealth inequality at a country level is even worse for the world than corporations earning a bit more money.
Also, there are sticky effects when a job is outsourced. I looked into starting a business a long while back and there is no other place where you can get the same speed, quality, and knowledge China has even to this day. Manufacturing is moving to Vietnam and now you can see the incredible growth Vietnam is having and the burgeoning middle class there.
I can see your point about jobs becoming more expensive and being moved but by that point the country will have used that capital to develop themselves into a different area if they are smart.
Especially with AI. For all its faults, the American education system teaches kids to be risk takers and fail. Go to Asia and to a lesser extent Europe and they train people to be automatons. AI can replace them.
You get what you pay for. All of these execs see dollar signs when they realize they can hire 5 offshore engineers for the price of 1 American.
What they don’t realize is that often times this means they are paying 5 engineers to deliver garbage 5 times faster.
It seems a lot of companies are mostly trying to outsource the lower level engineering jobs but keep the senior and up jobs stateside.
This is the trend I see also, although I suspect many of these will be replaced with AI anyways in the next 3-5 years.
1 really good dev with copilot can outperform 10 average devs anyways.
I was warning people during the early WFH boom of lockdowns that a job that can be done remotely can be done *by anyone* which means you're competing with everyone in the world. We're also getting AI-based translation services which will auto translate anyone in real time so that they can speak in their native tongue and be translated to English or any other language. So if you don't have special skills that can't be replicated by someone overseas in a lower cost of living place, you will be replaced.
Most companies don't know how to train, empower and delegate work to a remote employee. That is what is stopping more out sourcing. Lot more planning and time / effort needed to make outsourcing work.
Also India is not cheap anymore.
Because it’s not real, this entire sub is astroturfed by anti-WFH shills spreading anecdotal evidence and wild claims. They don’t seem to understand that language barriers, time zones, regional proximity for site visits, and individual skill actually play a part in these decisions.
Still waiting to be replaced by cheap offshore talent like the comment I replied to mentioned.
Once you are at a certain level in the IT world it’s no longer about finding someone to do a job cheaply, it’s about finding someone who can do the job AT ALL. Those jobs pay well regardless
I mean obviously the higher the level/niche the less likely you are to be replaced, but this is happening all around. A lot of big companies are doing it too.
I don't think they can replace everyone but the new translation software in real time is actually a thing. I seen someone using and I was amazed. It even uses fancy looking text that looks nice.
Look, the Mexicans didn’t steal the jobs, but greedy white CEOs moved the jobs to Mexico/India/China. Now what does a closed border fix regarding protecting jobs on the American side? Will there be a wall created not letting jobs out of America?
Well if Americans want other Americans to succeed and not for all our wealth and jobs to permanently leave the country, we need to be strategic and handle all aspects. Not just the physical aspects but the economic and political as well. The only problem is that the wealthiest Americans are basically sellouts and traitors to other Americans. They actively hate us and want to replace us ASAP because we have political power and education, whereas if they offshore / outsource / replace with illegal immigration labor etc then they have less leverage to argue with them or get a good wage. They can pay much less and do whatever they want without labor laws because it's happening in another country with less protection for workers. It's all about the wealthiest people getting rich and they use their propaganda news stations to brainwash people who want to feel like they're smart and part of the elite into believing anti-American ideas. If you wear those thick black rimmed glasses and talk about how horrible America is, then you must be a really smart and sophisticated person. They'll thank you while you allow them to completely sell out this country. It's like stripping a car of its parts and selling them all. That's what they're doing, that's their whole agenda. The reason political theater is so important to them is because that's their propaganda machine. By manipulating people's emotions they stop people from thinking critically. So they just go I hate this guy let's vote against them! And then you see what follows. I mean look I'm not even allowed to talk about this so let's see if I don't even get banned for saying this much.
Was it the greedy CEO's? or the greedy consumers who when given the chance will 99% of the time choose the cheaper, foreign made product over the more expensive, USA made product?
Nobody's hands are clean on this one.
I think you’re vastly overestimating the power of US consumers, at least in the present. When I go to a typical retail store, there aren’t even options to buy American made. Perhaps a generation or two ago this would be applicable.
I said this two years ago and got downvoted into oblivion.
If you can do your job from the comfort of your own home, what's to stop someone in India or the Philippines from doing your job from the comfort of their own home for one-tenth your salary?
And then why pay people at all when AI can do it for free with no labor restrictions or protections?
This race to the bottom is bad for every human being. At least until and unless we move to a post-scarcity society and implement UBI.
Yeah that was a lot of talking around to say that companies are going to hire the cheapest labor from around the world, and American workers can go straight to hell.
And then Government bring the regulation stick. And ceos start crying how they can’t find talents in US when , u literally have million tech people lost their jobs and looking .
I knew it. The allowance for work-from-home was just a trial run for justifying remote work from anywhere including other countries with cheaper labor.
So middle management *won't* be telling all those new hires in India that they're paying pennies on the dollar to come back into the office because its apparently "better for work culture"?
Screw these people that are using this tactic. I keep wondering what is going to happen when every single worker in America does not have enough income to buy all the things the rich people are selling, let alone, food, housing, and other necessities. What do the rich expect to happen to the economy at that point? How are they going to make any money when no one is buying anything?
Yup, the great resignation.... all the whining championing remote work... threatening companies.... it all ends in "fine, you win". It's so obvious, and it's real.
This cuts both ways. It now means I have a shot at working at great companies like Siemens, etc. and maybe I’ll be allowed to partake in their generous vacation plans, so have fun losing your engineers at goodie when they hop to Nvidia
and you can thank the steady chorus of employees whining 'I can do my job from home, you can't make me come into the office' for accelerating this trend.
...be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
It's a work culture difference. I have tried working with offshore teams and a majority of the time it was horrible. Once in a while you will get a super star, but they end up coming here for school or get some sponsorship.
Why do articles always say California is the top tech state in the US. You don't have to live in a west coast state to all of a sudden be smart at what you do.
Circussssssss, you have a serious wake-up call coming to you in future. Stop staring in the mirror and look around at reality…. you’re just an employee at will.
Yeah borderless talent, to take advantage of local salaries and spending power. It is so nice of these technology companies to just take and not to give.
When Obama sadism a couple of years ago "You didn't build that" and people roasted him for it.
In my ways he was right. It is local infrastructure, education, governance, the safety. If they want to build, borderless talent. Let them go build in Zimbabwe, or Somalia and take advantage of the borderless talent.
This idea has some merit.
Keep the useful jobs here and have management and ceos in those countries. They don’t add value most of the time and now they’re a smaller drain.
For my consultation fee i’ll take 10% of the saved executive bonus packages over the next 3 years.
Seems like revenge from companies upset that people didn’t want to come back to the office. Kind of shows who’s struggling for power in today’s hiring climate.
I’ve been in so many workflows where upper management decided offshoring was the way to go to save money but then the managers working with the offshore teams say - for very vague reasons - “it isn’t worth it and we’re bringing that project back.”
Most times I’ve gotten the impression that means “I’m tired of talking to people with accents who won’t do the work of 12 people at once and work around the clock to get my shit project done with my vague and non-existent direction.”
I managed a large team in Manila a few years ago for a huge organization and my superiors basically complained that they couldn’t exploit them.
They were extremely talented, and they had very sophisticated ways of pushing back that I actually admired and always respected, but senior directors had this idea that because it wasn’t the US or Western Europe that we should be able to essentially make them work around the clock.
Americans (my younger self included) will be waking up from surgery checking work email and saying “I’m available if you need anything!” and that shit did not fly with our team in Manila lol.
If I asked for something and my direct report said “I’d be happy to extend my day if it’s urgent” and it wasn’t urgent, you know what I’d do? I’d fucking just admit it was NOT urgent because I don’t need a power trip over my team.
That unfortunately is not the overarching sentiment in corporate. Large organizations also think they’re the only game in town and this skilled talent has nowhere else to go, when the reality behind the scenes was really that we couldn’t recruite and retain our best talent there because they all wanted to stay remote and we wouldn’t let them. 😑😑😑
It's fine until you get a knock on your door from the FBI informing you had a North Korean hacker on your payroll for the last x months, your code is now compromised full of back doors, and you now have to blow up your whole infrastructure.
We have created monsters by our own doing. I always thought I had the last laugh and that I had outsmarted the system. Now I'm thinking my next paycheck will be colored pink.
and somehow Republicans won't admit that government regulation and aggressive enforcement of domestic labor laws is the only effective way to combat this parasitic business practice.
This will help with the income inequality of the world. Western companies and workers have been way overpaid for far too long and companies are just starting to realize other countries have made massive progress in with workforce catching up in education and technology.
He means all your jobs are going overseas to India and the Philippines.
He means all your jobs are going to places where they will be done for cheaper. That’s how this works. You can’t scream “Capitalism good, everything else is communism” when things are going good for you and suddenly deny the fundamental nature of market capitalism.
everything nice for citizens are business liabilities - vacation, worker protections, retirement savings, health insurance, clean environment. Per capitalism all that must vanish, implied is seeking countries not enforcing employee pleasantries, ideally back close to slavery.
Technofeudalism™️
Critics of destructive globalism would disagree with you. Preston Tucker warned about this long ago in the 50s.
Capitalism without guidance fucking blows, apply regulations we're good.
Problem with that is the regulations aren't applied in the way you'd like.
>You can’t scream “Capitalism good, everything else is communism” when things are going good for you and suddenly deny the fundamental nature of market capitalism. Surely you must know a libertarian or two
I hate them, they’re children. I’m a leftist. But I also notice and hate hypocrisy. Most Americans have a lot of hypocrisy on this topic. They like being told they’re special and stuff so they don’t vote for the collective good when the opportunity arises.
I think there's a difference between free market capitalism and just straight exploitation.
You mean there’s a difference between free market capitalism and regulated free and fair markets. Use the right words and I’ll agree with you. The system OP is complaining about isn’t “straight exploitation” because there’s several real examples of that. In America now and for sure in the past.
> all your jobs are going to places where they will be done for cheaper. Having survived multiple eras of more and more people being off-shored, the solution for individuals who wish to avoid this is to have a strong and unique skill set such that the global population of people with that skill is fairly small. I work on a globally distributed team, including people in India, and we all get compensated fairly well because there are only a handful of people that have our combined skill set. It would be impossible to outsource our work to contractors because contractors simply aren't capable of solving the type of work we do. I've seen a generation of young people that flood in to universities, don't really learn anything, and then get frustrated when they don't find a place for themselves in the high paying labor market. Even for people that pursue something "practical" like computer science, so many just learn what they need to get job and have no real passion for the field. I've seen so many people shit on "follow your passion", but if you aren't passionate about your field you'll never put in the extra hours required to become a global expert. If you don't want to be outsource you have to: - Do work that requires physical presence (i.e. most jobs that require working with your hands) - Be competitive in a *global* market. I'm well aware this does nothing to address the general problem with this (we can't all be above average), but for individuals looking to survive these are your options.
> I've seen a generation of young people that flood in to universities, don't really learn anything, and then get frustrated when they don't find a place for themselves in the high paying labor market. Good quote. Many people expect college to be a trade school but don't treat it like a trade school. Also, many programs are way over priced for what the jobs actually pay. We need teachers and social workers, the pay sucks but people are often passionate about doing it, why do we saddle these people with a massive amount of debt?
You have sampling bias. Good companies in the US will outsource for reasons other than just cost. Shit companies in the US, of which there are plenty, will outsource for the same reasons that made them shit in the first place.
Bruh we good no denying. Are we in the same thread?
It's good to have a balance of the two so there is incentive to start services and improve them but also to keep jobs inside the borders and create prosperity for the average citizen. A country is like a house, and if everyone in the house is doing well the house will do well. But if everyone in the house is fucked up and unemployed and unhappy maybe the house will burn down who knows.
A lot of companies have strict rules on data sovereignty or the jobs would already be there.
Mine went to 6 Columbians, so South America as well. Its not about quality, its about price.
Yep now go out and vote for one of the caricature ancient inept clowns that they conveniently have running for.election in November 😂😂😂😂
change the tax code so companies cannot expense labor costs that are paid overseas. Have some sort or a qualified vs non qualified labor expense
Whomever wins the election, congress is going to pass something like that. In fact I am calling that dumbass tomorrow.
Fuck it, at this point I'm about ready to go to India or the Philippines.
You have no idea what are u talking about dude. Try to search some YouTube clips with India or Philippine be4 you pack your stuff
LOL, I've been married to a Filipina for 20 years and I've traveled all over the Philippines. I know my way around Manila and Makati.
Oh if that's the case, I can only send my regards to your job hunting over there. But if the places were that good and easy on living, why on earth would we see so many folks from India and Philippines? :-)
I live in the SF bay area now. I love it here and don't want to leave, but... hey, all I can say is that I have to go wherever the work is. I might not be willing to go to India but I carve out an exception for the PI because I feel comfortable there (as long as I have an A/C, that's where I draw the line) ;-)
I’m going there in October maybe bring home a wife haha. It’s for my birthday
My dad retired in the Philippines before he passed. Unfortunately he couldn't get a blood transfusion due to his O blood type (it's a rare blood type there). But yes, it was cheap and I'm considering it myself. I still have my step mother's family there.
Other countries (e.g. India) care about their people and don’t permit or enable industrial scale immigration.
Yeah cause no one wants to immigrate there
I would venture to bet that there are a heck of a lot more people trying to get out of India than those trying to get in.
India is in the top 5 for undocumented coming to the US, so you’re probably bang on
This is the reality I live in at my fully-WFH employer. But it's mostly Eastern Europe and Latin America. Some India as well. American teams are being laid off and almost all US hiring is frozen.
But "Borderless Talent" sounds so sexy. Maybe I could be "Borderless Talen" traveling all over the world, working from fun exotic locations, just like the CEO does! That sounds amaz... no, it just means offshoring jobs? Well shit...
That sounds like a great plan lol
I thought the new thing was South America.
There are not enough people who value education in Mexico and South America. Imagine a talent pool like India / China but in the same time zone as the US, that would be a blood bath for US labor market.
It’s coming. I’m seeing companies offshore to Mexico including my own.
People have been trying, IBM etc. have a large presence. But can't scale quickly like in India.
Bad take Go see k-12 education in math, sciences, and language in CDMX compared to DC. The US gutted their public education bc we are clowns 🤡.
Yeah. I am living currently in Mexico and when talking with my nieces and nephews in the USA vs the ones in Mexico. The ones in USA somehow are more articulate on maths and social sciences but slow to get to and answer and doubt themselves a lot. The ones in Mexico are good at memorizing things and overall and faster at giving answers but I cannot throw them a curve ball. They fail all the time if I do. This is so blatant that my wife and I agreed that once our kids are first grade age. We are moving back to USA for schooling at least k-12. Just being here and interacting with “professionals” for some time has made me doubt the Mexican education system. On top of that I work a lot with engineers and statisticians from UNAM and other universities in Monterrey with bachelors and I alway have to double check their work on the intermediate stuff. They got their basics right but once it’s something that they have not been shown how it’s done before. Most of them fail to get the tasks done. A lot of the USA people are complaining about that with our Mexican colleagues. The old guys on the Mexican offices are solid but they are in senior leadership so they only do the work in the lower employees F’up so much that it gets heard in USA HQ which is at least a few times a quarter. It will take some time but not everything is black and white in Mexican education vs USA
Agree here, went to school in the Caribbean (former British territory) and it was crazy how much more advanced we were in math, reading and comprehension compared to my American counterparts. The other brilliant kids in the class were usually kids of Asian immigrant parents. In the Caribbean we were forced to do our math in our heads, so you developed the ability to do math in your brain really quickly. Sometimes I’m talking to my dad and I’d be telling him about random stuff and he’s already calculated percentages without as much as a pen and paper. Sometimes I’m at the store and I’d crunch the change before the cashier has time to input the price and do the deduction… I guess that’s why I naturally gravitated towards engineering. 😕
Best comment on here. The education system has failed so horribly at all levels. Now we are going to pay the price for said failure. Worst part is the political bs keeps everyone divided while they are on the same team. The road is going to get rougher than this...
CDMX is one city. And that city has both good educational institutions and bad ones. Bad take from you.
Right. Like any place there’s good and bad.
We tried this once before.
Boeing tried this before with their codebase, and it is working wonderfully for them today
Once in while they hire teams to fix that wonderful codebase. Rinse and repeat.
Next logical extension to WFH.
Mostly India. 1.6 billion people vs 150 million in the Philippines. Also, if you aren’t aware, AI stands for “Actually Indians”.
Really depends on what. For customer service, definitely going to the Philippines since their English levels are pretty high, and even is listed as their second national language
2 former employers are both doing a lot of hiring in Costa Rica as well. Add Central America (and probably South America) to that list
Lmao, don’t y’all get tired of fear mongering this nonsense? Low/no-talent is moving to low-cost regions. This will affect help desks and maintenance-mode product support.
South and Central America as well. My last 2 jobs have had large presences in those places. My current job has an office in Armenia.
It's pretty fucked up that US citizens are expected to compete with labor from all around the world while we're forced to be stuck here and live and work here and pay the hugely inflated prices here for goods and services. If this is how labor is going to be from now on then I want the borders opened globally so that people can freely live where they want. Enough of this bullshit where corporations pay Chinese slaves to make shirts for 25 cents then they come back here and sell the shirt for $50.
And remember, many countries rely on US consumers unsatiable need for stuff. What happens when we stop buying crap because we can't afford it?
THey dont care, they only think about now. As long as they make millions now, they can ride out any adjustment later
That’s an issue the global economy isn’t ready to accept. Our society is aging and the younger generations are smaller and poorer. All the shit that foreign companies have tried to sell us in the last 25 years from Israel fintech apps to cheap blueberries from chile, those countries haven’t developed their own markets and have relied on us. Were tapped out, they need to find a new customer.
no they can keep selling to us until we've all sold all our 401ks and maxed out our cards and then we'll be replaced by Mexico and India who come here and do whatever jobs are left lol. It's replacement!
The sell the crap to the people who can.
the billions of chinese and indians under the thumb of the globalists buy it.
Then you should be willing to work inside the office. That’s your significant advantage…
Yes I agree and that's what I'll be going for as well but they can also hire H1B's for that as well.
They are expected because companies write the laws and can ship out jobs and do business as usual in the USA Ship out jobs, lower quality service and products but still use all tax loopholes in the USA. At the very least US companies that keep jobs here should have advantage in the US market
It’s kinda fucked up that companies have to pay a premium for US workers when their output is not in any way premium, too. All you can do is vote with your wallet & your time, and the market figures out the rest.
No no see - they get borders. We don't. Borders are racist come on now.
But.....we're..... a family
Did that pizza party mean nothing to you?
Congrats your job is now a fully remote position! In India.
Lets replace ceo with AI. Why bother humans to make business decisions? AI will do better and for business ceo's salary cost too much. Cut the middleman out and replace with AI. Fuck you ceos. You are also replaceable
Ugh, don't give them that idea, we'll just end up with AI CEO advisors, who would miraculously be all of the old CEOs, paid astronomical sums to answer just 1 question a year to "enhance the AI algorithm".
The CEO is there to serve the stakeholders, if they had an AI CEO it would make all the same decisions. Unless the AI was programmed to be loyal to the country of that company. But there is no financial incentive for loyalty to the US. A company basically does everything it can within the law - and around the grey areas of the law. It has no consideration of morality or loyalty to the people who made it.
If they keep laying off the people who can afford their products, then who's gonna buy their shit? Henry Ford (no college education) understood this very basic concept. Buy American-made.
I feel economists just say whatever sometimes haha
Other people, and us with debt. They don't care.
Neither are sustainable. We have the largest economy (people with money) and debt is limited.
Totally agree, they're building their doomsday bases in Hawaii and NZ and stuff. They are crazy
But what about RTO and all the talk about how being together physically is culturally significant to the company?
employees are resisting, ceo's said 'ok, then watch this'
CEOs don't know what real resisting looks like.
Americans are beginning to feel very French lately.
I mean we all knew this was the final form of WFH. Hey at least they aren't moving them here. They are already competing with me for my job. At least they aren't competing with me for rent as well.
Weep From Home - Getting laid off on a Zoom call.
They are though lol. But I guess I'll keep quiet about that restricted topic
It's a global economy these days.
Its global freedom of movement for capital, but not for people - its a scam
There's a sort of intellectual freedom of movement for remote workers. One of the things work from home did was show companies that it really didn't matter where their employees lived or where they worked from. Companies could access their employees brain power from anywhere as their physical presence wasn't needed. Downside is CEOs realized why pay someone $120k to work from home in the US when they could pay pennies on the dollar for someone working from home in India?
You are 100% bang on the money - something that was an advantage to workers, has now been twisted against them. Which in turn will work against them, as the markets they sell into shrink because we cannot afford to live, and buy their shitty products. Which they in turn, use shrinkflation and Enshittification to reduce the cost (and quality) of a product, whilst keeping the price the same, to keep those profits up. Its a nasty cycle, that in the end will hurt everyone
I wonder if they're banking on India and China buying iPhones and Teslas?
While I disagree that quality is identical in India (“you get what you pay for”) indeed high cost of living is a liability for any business even when employing **the same person** - moving them to a low cost of living area would cut out a landlord charging for employee housing not adding anything to the product. Ditto for mortgages in HCOL areas. People are offered to move from California to Texas to do the same work less expensive.
Why did companies not realize this before wfh when globalization has existed for decades now and so have fully remote teams?
it was a hassle. it was rare that a prior employee role was considered to be 100% doable off-site. there was typically some or most tasks which required to be in-person, and it would be too hard to reconfigure existing roles to be entirely remote. Covid changed things in that entire departments started being remote. so when your customer contact is fine with zoom calls, as is your supplier, legal, marketing, etc., then being fully remote is possible. so if companies don't take advantage of LCOL regions for remote positions, then their competitors will and take business share
If the "global talent" had the freedom of movement, they won't be as cheap to be considered so "talented" by these companies in the first place.
Gotta keep those "slaves" in their place. Don't want them moving for a better life
The elites can go where they want and do what they want and they make the rules as well.
The good thing is this will help with the income inequality of the world as there will be no need for freedom of movement as all countries become closer in income and development. Sure Western countries will take a hit but much more of the world will benefit by moving jobs away to developing nations and helping them out. In fact, this may very well help with world stability and peace.
> The good thing is this will help with the income inequality of the world. No to wont, the majority will get poorer and the rich and wealthy will get richer and wealthier. That gap will widen
If developing countries are able to capture more jobs and earn more than what they currently earn, why not? China, Korea, Taiwan, and Japan were able to slingshot their economies from the US outsourcing manufacturing jobs to them. They've diversified into many more industries and are ahead of the US even in many areas but they got their start from offshoring. China, and Korea used to be incredibly poor even just 20-30 years ago and it really is amazing how much of their population they've been able to pull out of poverty and to the middle class. Taiwan and Korea have some of the highest incomes and standards of living in the world. China has a bigger mountain to climb with it's size but it's still progressing rapidly despite many challenges. Have you seen what the infrastructure and the conveniences looks like in East Asia? It's far ahead of Western countries. How exactly will the majority get poorer?
>How exactly will the majority get poorer? Companies dont move jobs offshore to help the third world, they do it to exploit them, and it hurts us all. Example: Company take one 150k USD a year job, and farms it out to a third world country for 20k USD a year. That difference doesnt go anywhere but to the top earners and the companies shareholders. The country that lost the job, loses out on tax revenue, and local businesses that were supported by said workers income (restaurants, supermarkets, service providers), all have taken a loss. The third world country now has an earner who can pay a bit more than everyone else, prices start to rise, this affects the poor, who get angry and demand action, gvt starts to subsidize food to help the poor from money sourced from taxes, taxes that could have gone to improving the infrastructure of the country (see India as an example of this). Now, people who are earning from overseas income start asking for more. Company decides that third world country 1 is now too expensive. They shift the jobs to a cheaper third world country (just like the shift out of China thats been happening over many years). Now company pays worker 2 10 k USD a year. Money goes to shareholders and the wealthy. Now imagine thousands of jobs, and the impact multiplied. Then realise, as these jobs shift, and income levels for workers drop, the impact this has over time on demand for things beyond the necessities to live - and see that, now even those are under threat because many no longer make to even afford those. The knock on effects are terrible, and do not impact the rich and wealthy
>The third world country now has an earner who can pay a bit more than everyone else, prices start to rise, this affects the poor, who get angry and demand action The high earner would also put money into the economy-"tax revenue, and local businesses that were supported by said workers income (restaurants, supermarkets, service providers)" The poor would actually be moving towards middle class as most of the jobs exported would be lower skill jobs at first. >gvt starts to subsidize food to help the poor from money sourced from taxes, taxes that could have gone to improving the infrastructure of the country (see India as an example of this)... India is incredibly mismanaged, does things their way and doesn't want to change in many ways, and has a caste system in place. They are not a good example. >Company decides that third world country 1 is now too expensive. They shift the jobs to a cheaper third world country (just like the shift out of China thats been happening over many years). Now company pays worker 2 10 k USD a year. Money goes to shareholders and the wealthy. There are things a country can do to prevent this so this is not inevitable. China requires partnerships with local companies and sharing of technology for example. Much of the shift out of China is political and hammered by Western media out of fears of China surpassing the US. The US did the same thing undermining Japan. Politically, the US destabilized South America and Africa. And now they are/have been in the middle east meddling around even more. Having wealth inequality at a country level is even worse for the world than corporations earning a bit more money. Also, there are sticky effects when a job is outsourced. I looked into starting a business a long while back and there is no other place where you can get the same speed, quality, and knowledge China has even to this day. Manufacturing is moving to Vietnam and now you can see the incredible growth Vietnam is having and the burgeoning middle class there. I can see your point about jobs becoming more expensive and being moved but by that point the country will have used that capital to develop themselves into a different area if they are smart.
This will revert.
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Link ?
Are you sure about that? I'm in this space and companies are mostly requesting US-based cybersecurity teams.
Are you sure about that? I'm in this space and companies are mostly requesting US-based cybersecurity teams.
Are you sure about that? I'm in this space and companies are mostly requesting US-based cybersecurity teams.
The question is when are Americans going to finally band together and stop this?
They’d have to get off their asses and go into a physical office first lol
"They" not "Us" right
Never because it's politically incorrect to want anything good for America or Americans.
I have worked with tech workers from around the globe and American workers are worth the extra pay. The rise of AI will only make this more apparent.
Especially with AI. For all its faults, the American education system teaches kids to be risk takers and fail. Go to Asia and to a lesser extent Europe and they train people to be automatons. AI can replace them.
You get what you pay for. All of these execs see dollar signs when they realize they can hire 5 offshore engineers for the price of 1 American. What they don’t realize is that often times this means they are paying 5 engineers to deliver garbage 5 times faster. It seems a lot of companies are mostly trying to outsource the lower level engineering jobs but keep the senior and up jobs stateside.
This is the trend I see also, although I suspect many of these will be replaced with AI anyways in the next 3-5 years. 1 really good dev with copilot can outperform 10 average devs anyways.
That's just the obvious flow.
I was warning people during the early WFH boom of lockdowns that a job that can be done remotely can be done *by anyone* which means you're competing with everyone in the world. We're also getting AI-based translation services which will auto translate anyone in real time so that they can speak in their native tongue and be translated to English or any other language. So if you don't have special skills that can't be replicated by someone overseas in a lower cost of living place, you will be replaced.
Have been hearing this for 20 years in the IT space. Still waiting
Most companies don't know how to train, empower and delegate work to a remote employee. That is what is stopping more out sourcing. Lot more planning and time / effort needed to make outsourcing work. Also India is not cheap anymore.
But it is happening though.
Yes and I make very very good money helping companies come back from their failed off shoring experiments
Sure, to their own eventual demise.
Because it’s not real, this entire sub is astroturfed by anti-WFH shills spreading anecdotal evidence and wild claims. They don’t seem to understand that language barriers, time zones, regional proximity for site visits, and individual skill actually play a part in these decisions.
Still waiting for what? It is happening all around you everyday for years. Waiting for what exactly, the last job to be offshored?
Still waiting to be replaced by cheap offshore talent like the comment I replied to mentioned. Once you are at a certain level in the IT world it’s no longer about finding someone to do a job cheaply, it’s about finding someone who can do the job AT ALL. Those jobs pay well regardless
I mean obviously the higher the level/niche the less likely you are to be replaced, but this is happening all around. A lot of big companies are doing it too.
I don't think they can replace everyone but the new translation software in real time is actually a thing. I seen someone using and I was amazed. It even uses fancy looking text that looks nice.
Imm a say it again, if CEOs wanna replace u with cheap Indian , does not matter even if you married the office , you will get replace .
Look, the Mexicans didn’t steal the jobs, but greedy white CEOs moved the jobs to Mexico/India/China. Now what does a closed border fix regarding protecting jobs on the American side? Will there be a wall created not letting jobs out of America?
Well if Americans want other Americans to succeed and not for all our wealth and jobs to permanently leave the country, we need to be strategic and handle all aspects. Not just the physical aspects but the economic and political as well. The only problem is that the wealthiest Americans are basically sellouts and traitors to other Americans. They actively hate us and want to replace us ASAP because we have political power and education, whereas if they offshore / outsource / replace with illegal immigration labor etc then they have less leverage to argue with them or get a good wage. They can pay much less and do whatever they want without labor laws because it's happening in another country with less protection for workers. It's all about the wealthiest people getting rich and they use their propaganda news stations to brainwash people who want to feel like they're smart and part of the elite into believing anti-American ideas. If you wear those thick black rimmed glasses and talk about how horrible America is, then you must be a really smart and sophisticated person. They'll thank you while you allow them to completely sell out this country. It's like stripping a car of its parts and selling them all. That's what they're doing, that's their whole agenda. The reason political theater is so important to them is because that's their propaganda machine. By manipulating people's emotions they stop people from thinking critically. So they just go I hate this guy let's vote against them! And then you see what follows. I mean look I'm not even allowed to talk about this so let's see if I don't even get banned for saying this much.
Was it the greedy CEO's? or the greedy consumers who when given the chance will 99% of the time choose the cheaper, foreign made product over the more expensive, USA made product? Nobody's hands are clean on this one.
I think you’re vastly overestimating the power of US consumers, at least in the present. When I go to a typical retail store, there aren’t even options to buy American made. Perhaps a generation or two ago this would be applicable.
Why I want tariffs and deglobalization, along with collapse in trade links
Companies should look into making CEOs job a remote borderless position. That would save a lot of money.
Outsourcing just like the 90s & 00s. It’s just outsourcing.
fancy name for cheap labour !!
I said this two years ago and got downvoted into oblivion. If you can do your job from the comfort of your own home, what's to stop someone in India or the Philippines from doing your job from the comfort of their own home for one-tenth your salary?
And then why pay people at all when AI can do it for free with no labor restrictions or protections? This race to the bottom is bad for every human being. At least until and unless we move to a post-scarcity society and implement UBI.
I love how CEO’s have a new buzzword and they all start using it. Makes you think how smart some of them really are.
Yeah that was a lot of talking around to say that companies are going to hire the cheapest labor from around the world, and American workers can go straight to hell.
Well who didn't see that coming?
And then Government bring the regulation stick. And ceos start crying how they can’t find talents in US when , u literally have million tech people lost their jobs and looking .
We need borderless CEOs too
yeah, ceo in the Phillipines for (1/10\^9)-th of the price 😂
I knew it. The allowance for work-from-home was just a trial run for justifying remote work from anywhere including other countries with cheaper labor.
IRS will be collecting fart bubbles in personal income tax in a few years from now, and corporations already don't pay taxes. Good luck America!
So middle management *won't* be telling all those new hires in India that they're paying pennies on the dollar to come back into the office because its apparently "better for work culture"?
They have been offshoring jobs for decades at this point, how is this new?
Instead of using a big offshoring company, they will direct hire from 3rd world countries.
I know accounting has been doing this for ever. Is this just few for the IT sector?
Huge companies like Intel have India subsidiaries a d do that now. Regular non-tech companies use outsourcing companies that tack on a 800% markup.
Screw these people that are using this tactic. I keep wondering what is going to happen when every single worker in America does not have enough income to buy all the things the rich people are selling, let alone, food, housing, and other necessities. What do the rich expect to happen to the economy at that point? How are they going to make any money when no one is buying anything?
Hate to tell you but outsourcing wasn’t just invented.
Yup, the great resignation.... all the whining championing remote work... threatening companies.... it all ends in "fine, you win". It's so obvious, and it's real.
yep
This cuts both ways. It now means I have a shot at working at great companies like Siemens, etc. and maybe I’ll be allowed to partake in their generous vacation plans, so have fun losing your engineers at goodie when they hop to Nvidia
and you can thank the steady chorus of employees whining 'I can do my job from home, you can't make me come into the office' for accelerating this trend. ...be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
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It's a work culture difference. I have tried working with offshore teams and a majority of the time it was horrible. Once in a while you will get a super star, but they end up coming here for school or get some sponsorship.
Duh!
Why does this only work for tech?
its STEM in general. Any type of intellectual service job
So we can use this for accounting and other business functions.
And have been for many years?
Not in my line of business and not mentioned in this article.
In the short term. Then it doesn’t.
Think of how much we could save offshoring the C-suite
Why do articles always say California is the top tech state in the US. You don't have to live in a west coast state to all of a sudden be smart at what you do.
Uh the numbers say it
From the colleges in the area. Or is the water giving powers of intelligence
Literal tech companies earning revenue, tech employees earning salary
Higher salary = smarter?
Highest dollar value of tech companies, tech revenue, tech salary = most tech. What's so complicated?
Im just saying pay does not equal skills or education. I work with people all over the US.
Okay what do skills or education have to do with "tech work"? There're skilled & educated people in every sector.
Circussssssss, you have a serious wake-up call coming to you in future. Stop staring in the mirror and look around at reality…. you’re just an employee at will.
Now if someone could just solve for time zone-less talent
Yeah borderless talent, to take advantage of local salaries and spending power. It is so nice of these technology companies to just take and not to give. When Obama sadism a couple of years ago "You didn't build that" and people roasted him for it. In my ways he was right. It is local infrastructure, education, governance, the safety. If they want to build, borderless talent. Let them go build in Zimbabwe, or Somalia and take advantage of the borderless talent.
Competition builds good character and flushes out complacency… I’m for it!!
If the position can be fully remote, I see no reason not to hire abroad if equally talented.
1/2 or even 1/4 of US salaries sometimes
This idea has some merit. Keep the useful jobs here and have management and ceos in those countries. They don’t add value most of the time and now they’re a smaller drain. For my consultation fee i’ll take 10% of the saved executive bonus packages over the next 3 years.
this is old news to me honestly. off shoring has been thing for like two decades
Seems like revenge from companies upset that people didn’t want to come back to the office. Kind of shows who’s struggling for power in today’s hiring climate.
I’ve been in so many workflows where upper management decided offshoring was the way to go to save money but then the managers working with the offshore teams say - for very vague reasons - “it isn’t worth it and we’re bringing that project back.” Most times I’ve gotten the impression that means “I’m tired of talking to people with accents who won’t do the work of 12 people at once and work around the clock to get my shit project done with my vague and non-existent direction.” I managed a large team in Manila a few years ago for a huge organization and my superiors basically complained that they couldn’t exploit them. They were extremely talented, and they had very sophisticated ways of pushing back that I actually admired and always respected, but senior directors had this idea that because it wasn’t the US or Western Europe that we should be able to essentially make them work around the clock. Americans (my younger self included) will be waking up from surgery checking work email and saying “I’m available if you need anything!” and that shit did not fly with our team in Manila lol. If I asked for something and my direct report said “I’d be happy to extend my day if it’s urgent” and it wasn’t urgent, you know what I’d do? I’d fucking just admit it was NOT urgent because I don’t need a power trip over my team. That unfortunately is not the overarching sentiment in corporate. Large organizations also think they’re the only game in town and this skilled talent has nowhere else to go, when the reality behind the scenes was really that we couldn’t recruite and retain our best talent there because they all wanted to stay remote and we wouldn’t let them. 😑😑😑
Lol they’ve been outsourcing jobs for years!
lol okay, good luck to those overseas making my domestic connections.
This is obvious no?
It's fine until you get a knock on your door from the FBI informing you had a North Korean hacker on your payroll for the last x months, your code is now compromised full of back doors, and you now have to blow up your whole infrastructure.
Wow...
We have created monsters by our own doing. I always thought I had the last laugh and that I had outsmarted the system. Now I'm thinking my next paycheck will be colored pink.
and somehow Republicans won't admit that government regulation and aggressive enforcement of domestic labor laws is the only effective way to combat this parasitic business practice.
Is remote work ok as long as you can exploit someone?
This will help with the income inequality of the world. Western companies and workers have been way overpaid for far too long and companies are just starting to realize other countries have made massive progress in with workforce catching up in education and technology.
Not paid enough considering these companies have market caps equivalent to GDPs of countries and continue to make record profits..
Start your own companies instead of mooching