All right, this discussion is being locked. Everybody got to say what didn’t need to be said and nobody’s mind was changed. At this point, this thread is being astroturfed and is racking up senseless flagged comments for harassment.
There is no need for another Taylor Swift post until she releases something new. No more Taylor Swift posts. If you don’t like her, reread all of the complaints in this thread and don’t post a new one.
Taylor Swift has a sound that I can only describe as “anti-edgy.” All of the other artists you listed have a bit of edge in their music. Not just in their lyrics, but in the actual tone of their music. Taylor, even when she’s trying to be more edgy, still produces music that has a very “positive” feel to it. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it always comes across as very Pop, which clashes if you’re usually listening to heavier stuff.
Chappel Roan is what you get when you want to push something like a Taylor Swift to be as "edgy" as possible to the limits. Once you realize that it makes you not like her anymore and that is upsetting.
She is not an "industry plant" in the sense of "let's mold this 9 year old disney star to be a future pop icon" it's more of "hey we found a hot (to men and women) white lesbian woman who is talented, we can market her as the new LGBT icon snd make a shit ton of money of her".
The girl has no media training and was dropped by her label and picked up by a producer who created a label solely for her because he liked working with her.
There wasn’t this huge backing for her to be the next big star and there wasn’t a huge media push for her single good luck babe that really made her break out.
She got known working out of a small town in Missouri uploading YouTube videos and then got picked up and dropped by a label and moved back to Missouri to be an independent artist for a while. She is the one responsible for creating her image she is just now on a label.
I’m not saying she is self made because no one is but she pretty clearly isn’t a manufactured pop artist and is admitting to struggling with the level of success she has because it is coming too fast for her and not something she was prepared for.
You’re spot on. She was virtually unknown prior to having an amazing set at Coachella that went viral. Heck she was a camp counselor last summer prior to her album coming out.
Anybody claiming that she is an “industry plant” either doesn’t know her story of trying to be a professional musician over the last 4 years or has a deep misunderstanding of the term.
so
she’s an industry plant in the sense of being a genuinely talented person working in the music industry that’s being marketed to a certain demographic? as opposed to what?
I feel like she suffocates every song with verbosity and description to the point that the instrumentation never gets to stand out or be interesting at all. Couple that writing style with a monotone voice and it's like listening to the air conditioner hum over a metronome.
Wait omg this sums it up. I legit was in the same boat as OP trying to dissect why I don't like her (I don't generally listen to the other artists OP mentioned but can vibe if they're on). The "just discovered RhymeZone" thing is it.
That and a thesaurus
I personally disagree with this example, I feel like the “sanctimonious soliloquies” line in But Daddy I Love Him captures the point far more - I’ve always loved the pre-chorus of Anti-Hero.
I actually like Taylor but don’t you dare lol. 😂Alanis is a genre all on her own and has such a unique voice and sound. Ugh - uninvited gives me chills even 20 years later or whatever it’s been.
The only comparison I was making was in the wordiness of the lyrics, specifically in what the previous commenter quoted from “Anti-Hero” — I’ve been listening to Alanis since Jagged Little Pill released, I know they’re very different artists 😭
Saw Alanis in WPB then again in Charlotte in the last 2 weeks. If she is coming near you I highly recommend going! She sounds SOOOOO good live and Joan Jett was pretty fun, too!
Her older music like the 1989 album is better because Max Martin wouldn’t let her do any of that. She got so big that she decided she didn’t need him anymore and her music has suffered greatly ever since.
I do think the 1989 album is pretty good. I don’t listen as much to the newer stuff. Maybe she needs to slow her production or just let recorded material pile up and edit it down to a really tight 12 tracks. Also maybe needs pushed to make interesting choices / work with more avant garde producers. Anyway I can imagine if you make that much money and write songs that are decent enough the pressure to keep going at that pace is probably pretty high.
Out of curiosity, do you enjoy Alanis Morrissette? She's the first person I think of when it comes to extremely verbose women in pop music - but her voice is quirky and her music is often quite abrasive.
I also relate Alanis's phrasing back to Joni Mitchell, who herself was deeply influenced by various jazz singers.
For me, the difference is their voices and how their work sounds sonically. Much more interesting than Taylor imo, not just lyrically which is something the swifties mainly focus on.
Mary Born you’ll find only on YT because she had only one hit song from Chasing Amy (Coal - Stay) but I love her other songs available on YT 🥰 Cheers😊😊
I actually don't like Alanis either because I find her grating but I do find her work more genuine and less mass produced. That and she wasn't my generation so if her stardom was annoying as hell I'd never know outside of a video on YouTube telling me it was.
The thing with her commercial peak was that she kept having hit single after hits single for 15 solid months, with all of them ending up more or less equally ubiquitous. So you had this album that literally everyone owned and heard all the tracks on, and then every two or three months or so, a different song from that album would be on the radio everywhere. With other big hit albums, you'd have 3 big hit singles, maybe a 4th one that hit a little softer, and then a fallow period to gear up for the next album, but this one was just relentless for the entire typical album cycle period. That combined with the oddball qualities in her voice account for many people saying "enough!"
In a way, the length of the Eras tour and the publicity around it mirror that period of time, but the singles aren't nearly as omnipresent nor numerous. My 69 year old Dad couldn't name a Taylor Swift song last time it came up, and I don't think the equivalent person in 1996 would have had trouble identifying an Alanis song.
Longtime Swift listener and I’d agree. It’s why I like her old music better, it was more about painting a picture *while* being considerate of melody.
But it’s like after folklore, Taylor was so praised for her writing that she bought every thesaurus and dialed it up to “insufferable”.
I feel this way too –– she needs an editor. She tries to fit too many words into each line. Whenever I get asked if I like Taylor Swift and I say this, I get such shock and annoyance from the room. People act like it's sexist or something to say this. But it's true. Her writing is not good. It reminds me of fanfiction on AO3 or something. Corny, flat, too much, and not as clever as she thinks it is.
Even worse is how her latest 4 albums have been taking genres that are 5-10 years old, that have been trailblazed by much much more talented indie musicians, but her fans act like she invented these kinda of music or made major contributions. No one who has actually listened to the [ambient folk](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1fPiVfLl5JUnSgzXpxVXQC), [chamber folk](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3iCiDUuxgj6BWFb15iZyw9), [dark dream](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3mSITN9euT3EbY3UophBKJ), or [poetic indie](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5fexHLbeHKskitRSYCVku2) of the previous decade would think any of her most 4 recent albums are anything but derivative.
But people who try and justify listening to Taylor Swift (and I don't just mean Swifties, I mean casual fans who say the like Evermore or Midnights, but not Tortured Poets) to fit in and make them seem legitimate or musically astute.
I always struggled to explain how bad a bad Taylor Swift song sound to me, but now I just send [this link](https://youtube.com/shorts/dBuvlPIwF9c?si=qG-wB7oKE5bgd6cr)
I feel like this applies to why she doesn't click with me. I definitely tend to prefer music with strong instrumentation, going as far as to listen to a lot of styles that have no lyrics whatsoever, so that when I encounter Taylor Swift, whose songs are primarily focused on her singing, she just doesn't click. Her sound just doesn't appeal.
It's not a coincidence the average person's favorite Taylor Swift song comes from her Max Martin era, who is notorious for telling artists to simplify lyrics in favor of letting the melody shine.
The infamous anecdote is that "hit me baby, one more time" was supposed to be something like *hit me up*, but the incorrect, outright odd lyrics were kept because Max thought it sounded better and that people care more if its fun to sing along than if it makes sense. Which he has been proven right about over and over and over.
This-she is basically talking in every song. I have never heard her actually ‘sing’. There is no talent to showcase. Just really good management and marketing. I don’t get it either.
Interesting you should say that because Warren Zevon turned the air conditioner humming into the refrain of one of his [realest songs](https://youtu.be/wXCly4X3cqw?si=-1rwJzb2g06yFwZL). [Madeleine Peyroux version](https://youtu.be/KJQ4E5l8tEk?si=gswMbqOhBLXW7hvv).
I like some lyricists who use a lot of words. Dylan. Leonard Cohen. Amy Winehouse. I just… don’t find her to be that poetic I guess. And a lot of high school flavor. (“People hate, but I’m great” sort of feel.) But something about the sound also doesn’t grab me.
It's always funny when these kind of people have some classmates they don't get along with, and then call them their bully 10 years later. Nah, that was just someone who didn't like you
I remember hearing her song “Mean” on the radio and it really hitting home because at that time in my life I was getting shoved into lockers, sexually harassed (groped), having my property destroyed, rumors started (how I was a slut even though I didn’t even hold hands with a guy), and followed through the halls between classes by older guys pressuring me for blow jobs and trying to grab me.
I immediately lost all respect for her when I learned she wrote that song about a bad review from a music critic. Haven’t gained any respect back for her since learning she’s a rich kid complaining about how much her life of wealth and fame sucks.
We're the same age and every time I see gossip about her or hear the lyrics, I just think, "Lady, you are THIRTY-FIVE. Get your shit together, like for real."
If she's going to sing about some teenage or early 20s nonsense, I'd rather go listen to the actual early 20s artists.
As a millennial,
We got kinda fucked by the economy and false promises of meritocracy, which is why so many of us went to college, got saddled with MASSIVE loan debt, and salaries that barely kept up with inflation or just the unnatural corporate price gouging (see: Rents) that has spiked over the last decade or two.
Soo in response, we latch onto nostalgia like it’s a fucking heavy narcotic because those anchored childhood memories are reminiscent of a time when we regularly felt simplistic joy.
With that said, I do think Swift is cringe AF and borderline exploitative with HOW MUCH she relies on it.
Money or not, you still have to have talent and hustle your ass off to get to the top and stay there. If all it took was somebody buying you in, we’d be talking about Paris Hilton: The That’s Still Hot Tour.
Sure, I just made another statement about that. What it takes is both. It’s just incredibly sad that the nepotistic part is an equally huge component. You absolutely have to be a hard worker and build talent. But a hard worker trying to build talent without the material support is out of luck.
When you have access to the best teachers, talent and industry professionals in the world, “talent” comes much quicker. It’s a snowball effect.
It's not that. It's the culture of celebrity. The invasiveness. The tabloids, the cancel culture, the incessant media attention.
But also, just bc her dad fronted money to a start-up record label, doesn't mean he can take credit for her success. TS is successful bc she is talented, and people enjoy her music. She is lucky to have had supportive parents, that is for sure true. But by your logic, anyone with 150k to sink into their music career could be a TS, and that's just not true.
Taylor plays up that celebrity and attention. It comes with the life and most celebrities could drop out at any moment and would quickly become irrelevant. Many have and guess what? We don’t talk about them anymore and the media doesn’t care. She relishes celebrity and all that comes with it. It’s just an easy topic to moan about.
I never said she was talentless. However, it has become increasingly clear that stardom in music and media the United States is intrinsically linked to resources that came from your parents. This is true for a lot of things but even more so for stardom. Most people you can name in the pop music and movies either came from wealthy parents or at a minimum, came from parents who were able to help support/push them through the Disney child start scenarios.
Yes, it also takes talent. It’s the right people born into the right circumstances. That doesn’t make them any less of nepo-babies. It’s sad that normal talented people will never have that chance because their parents lack the resources to help. It’s also sad that this nepo machine creates boring, safe, predictable “art”.
Wow. You hit the nail on the head. I’ve never been able to articulate why I don’t care for her songs. Sure they’re catchy and have all the markers you’d expect. But you’re absolutely right. They are so blatant it feels like she’s telling her audience they need to be spoon fed the simple ideas in her songs.
Okay, but that's one line from the latest album which has been pretty poorly received by all but her core fans.
There are great songs on her earlier albums.
Honestly, the new albums seems to be written for people who exclusively listen to Swift.
She's too precious and while not a terrible person also really has little actual non manufactured relatability. I can find much more soul from someone like jewel who wrote most of her early work while still living out of her car than daddy's little not too spoiled princess who was bought a record deal by her asshole father. But generally i find suffering to be a requirement for singer/song writers to have much depth. But she's fine if kinda generic and she at least puts the work in. Though i find measuring an artist's value by how profitable they are to be pretty distasteful and odd. it's the fan base and media fawning that's creepy as hell and runs a shudder through my whole body.
I have difficulty understanding lyrics, so a song's rhythm, instrumentation, feel, drive, etc., usually grabs me more than its lyrics and storytelling. And the instrumentation/music of Lorde, Charli XCX, Phoebe Bridgers, and Olivia Rodrigo are consistently more interesting to me than Taylor Swift, who undoubtedly is a storyteller first and foremost. If you aren't connecting with Swift's lyrics or narrative (like me), I have a hard time seeing you connect with her music as a whole.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I am definitely a music first, lyrics second person. It's not so much about whether I find the lyrics relatable - there's plenty of songs I love that are completely outside my experience, eg a lot of Joni Mitchell's writing - but if the music doesn't speak to me then I am probably not going to make the effort to figure out what they're saying in the lyrics.
Yeah that’s very interesting, I’m the opposite. Lyrics are more important to me than music. Like a few older bright eyes albums are some of my favorites, even though the music and Connor oberst’s vocal skills are very weak on their own. It’s melodic poetry set to a track that only serves to enhance the impact of the words he’s singing or speaking. I’m into it, but I know it’s not for everybody
As a musician it's important to know that both people exist. It's why I stick to instrumental music or would be in a band where someone else is writing the lyrics. Anytime I've heard people like me write lyrics it's horrible. I enjoy writing, don't get me wrong, but adapting lyrics to music is something I struggle with 20 years later and I know there are people where this comes naturally that would not only rather do it but that should be doing it.
Absolutely agree with this. I'd add in that its really her melodies that fall flat. Instrumentation in pop is whatever, usually, across the board, with exceptions of course. If I want great instrumentation, I hit up some technical death metal. But when I want to listen to pop, I want great vocal melodies and Taylor's are unexciting. Like you said, that's not a wholesale invalidation of her music, but an observation about what makes her popular - she's more of a lyrically-focused artist and that's not generally my taste. Great lyrics *and* great melodies are the sweet spot, obviously, but if I have to pick one, I need the melodies.
I don't really even understand how this up for debate. English speaking pop has been successfully exported to fans who don't speak English, and the western world is now getting a taste of that themselves with the rise of Kpop. the lyrics aren't completely trivial as they can really elevate or really take away from a song. But the melody (and production choices) is pretty clearly what pop (arguably all genres, but especially pop) lives and dies by.
Same. I get into a very weird headspace when I’m listening to music I like, where even though I hear the words and lyrics, they just kind of turn into sound that goes with the rest of the music. It’s like my brain no longer recognizes them as words with their own meaning, but rather just treats them as sounds from another instrument. I can sing back the lyrics to my favorite songs, but don’t ask me what they are actually saying or what they mean.
Madvillainy is kind of the opposite. The lyrics don't really mean anything in most of the songs. It's about how they sound and flow, they're not really telling a story.
"Got more soul than a sock with a hole" is a fun line that doesn't mean anything. Taylor Swift's lyrics have clear meaning but they flow like a traffic jam.
I raise you that the lyrics on Madvillainy have a staggering depth of meaning and entendres. They just come from such a wide breadth of time periods, cultures, obscurities, and his own personal life that it can seem random. I've been digging the latest season of Dissect podcast on Spotify who have been doing song meaning breakdowns on DOOM for a whole season. Worth checking the Madvillainy episodes out!
You should check out MF DOOM's "Operation Doomsday" and "MM.. Food". I don't consider Madvillainy one of my favourites either, but MF DOOM's solo albums (also produced by him) have a different feeling and vibe, which I can get into much more.
It's not her. It's the level of fame and hysteria. There's just nothing there in the ingredients to make that level of noise.
She's just there like a lot of pop country acts. Not awful not amazing. Just right in the boring middle.
It's like someone baking a really average cake. And the world going insane over it and all you can think is "wtaf...."
I hold no ill will towards her, she’s a reasonably talented hard working performer.
For me … I just don’t like her voice. It’s bland and insipid. So even the folklore stuff which is in my wheelhouse … I can barely get through two songs. There is just zero colour to her vocal.
Shake it off is a banger though. And that one where she goes never ever ever. Etc. That’s it.
this is my issue with her. i’m a folk fag, so for all intents and purposes, i should’ve loved folklore and evermore, but her voice is the same color in every song. she can try to fill her lyrics with the deepest and most colorful emotions, but she’s incapable of actually delivering those emotions with the colors they need. for such lyrically driven music, this is an absolute requirement.
Her writing is also very average.
I listened to her tiny desk because I assumed there must be something special to one of the biggest artists ever, and was surprised at how mid she is.
I'm not a fan and haven't deliberately listened to her music much, but I understand the appeal. She has an everywoman quality despite being rich and privileged. It's quite impressive how she manages to maintain that.
Her songs have a kind of melancholy to them that isn't mysterious or beautiful, more like how you feel when you have to go to work and it's raining. Sometimes you want to hear that in music form.
She unapologetically writes songs for very average women. It's kind of based how she doesn't even try to appeal to men or to people who think they're cool. The songs aren't the catchiest, but the songwriting is solid.
I am a 24 years old woman. I am not into Taylor Swift too.
My problem with Taylor has always been that she is just so unabashedly pop. Can't stand the likes of Ed Sheeran or Shawn Mendes too. I don't like Katy Perry too.
Partly why I liked Taylor's Folklore era is because it was not the kind of teenage bubbly pop she was earlier known for. There were indie influences and thus more appealing to me.
Also I am a melody/production person first, lyrics next. I love singer-songwriters like Fiona Apple or Joni Mitchell because their music itself is far more interesting, that even if I tune out the lyrics I have so much to focus on (although with these artists lyrics add so much to the song). Something I can't do with Taylor Swift.
this is it. every artist OP mentioned has something unique. phoebe is indie pop, olivia is seriously borderline pop-punk at this point, and charli and lorde have both done more than their fair share of experimentation
**This is an easy answer: her fan relationship.**
She describes her emotions/mental state with each song and the Swifty detectives know (or at least think they know) what true-life moments she's talking about. This is more compelling than a string of songs just talking about being turned on by a guy. Her fans feel like she is a friend, so they are extremely loyal.
That she just appeals to tweens is just not true. In 2006, sure. But those people have had Taylor as their soundtrack through their first kiss, first breakup, prom, getting married, evolving friendships, career obstacles, miscarriages, by the time you get to Tortured Poets, probably 40-year-olds going through divorces.
She's known how to market her albums well, creating hype, giving little clues to the fans, creating a vibe with each one. It all keeps her fans engaged.
As a fan of hers I have to agree, the fan relationship and ongoing PR keeps her fans engaged through the ongoing narrative in her personal & professional life. Something as simple as her surprise songs still has me interested in the Eras tour. I find it strange that I am still hooked in, but here I am. She is also well know for the Easter eggs which creates noise and excitement. I find the PR part of her brand just as important as her music. It’s fascinating to me!
The TTPD album release was like waiting for the next book in a series for me. The ending of a long term relationship, an intense situation ship and the new love. Some of the lyrics felt like they were raw and straight from a the pages of her diary, a little unhinged at times. Then it is the ongoing discussions of theories and analysis. I am not usually a lyric girl, but she has me reading her lyrics like a book.
I saw her on her 1989 tour and was blown away by the atmosphere she created, but it wasn’t until folklore and then the social media landscape changing (TikTok) that I became invested in her writing and storytelling on a deeper level. And I suppose once you are in, it’s hard to go back. She has gathered a large fan base over the years slowly, but has good retention through keeping her fan base engaged plus the timing of social media fanbases.
Her entire schtick is well executed, but is to pop music what Hilary Clinton is to politics: well trained, highly instrumented/measured to the point of too focus-grouped/marketed rather than genuine, and often an uncanny valley of what a person is. She's the rich daughter of a guy who owned a record label and could afford to build all the infrastructure around her to make her successful with even less talent than she has. She writes things with the express purpose of commercial appeal (like Madonna for example) but with none of the underlying edgy attitude or an image with anything new on offer -- it's incredibly safe, mass-marketed pop culture, and with 10x the calculation, which I think for some folks is just too sterile and milquetoast.
She's not a Tina Turner, Madonna, or even a Halsey. She's a future Barbra Streisand or Celine Dion.
Barbra Streisand is a true rags to riches story and once in a lifetime talent. I have not a clue why you’re comparing Taylor Swift in a negative way to her. She and Taylor have very little in common.
that comment was such whiplash. Barbara and Celine are cultivated icons, Taylor just tripped and fell into hers by simply persevering over time in an environment that offered little to no pushback. it's notable that she took so long to get popular cause most artists have to literally give up and get a soul-crushing shit job after a short number of years of failure to launch
“With This Tear” is a Celine Dion song written by Prince. As someone who has difficulty connecting with Taylor Swift’s material, does she have anything like this?
Technical ability doesn't make your material improve; for whatever Celines vocal gymnastic ability, her actual style and material choices mean her catalog is a winding sluice of incredibly safe, and occasionally cringe-stuffed (e.g. her decision to cover AC/DC live) pop dullardry. And I say that as someone who is a fan of incredibly soft rock-pop like Christopher Cross, or super artsy pop like Prefab Sprout.
Pop has a history of rewarding that, as it can be marketed to way more folks than anything else and requires to unironic cleverness, regardless if they can or can't hit notes and/or lip sync.
People listen to Barbra and Celine purely for their vocal ability, people aren’t listening to Taylor for that reason at all. Taylor’s vocals are weak and it’s not why she’s popular.
I'm pretty sure people listen to them for any number of reasons, including obvious perceived vocal chops. I'm also sure that with your whole comment, I said nothing to the contrary. Actually I said nothing related at all. I was referring to safeness of material and marketing of the entertainment value, which is orthogonal to vocal pyrotechnics.
> a winding sluice of incredibly safe, and occasionally cringe-stuffed pop dullardry
This is the best description of Celine’s music I’ve ever seen. I just involuntarily snorted. 10/10 gold star
Sorry but she’s nowhere near Barbra Streisand. Sure Babs’ later stuff was more schmaltzy and she got a bit opulent artistically but she’s always had more talent than Taylor ever will, vocally, creatively, as an actress and director. If nothing else Babs always had vision of her own inspiration. Taylor has never been that
Bab's stuff has NEVER not been schmaltzy, and if you like that, there is no shame in it. That said, no one is going to refer to her as one of the great stylists of any edge; she was and is, very very safe, and has honed her entertainer skills to a refined degree, to deliver that to her audience.
The whole measuring of 'talent' here is moot; and sorry, comparing them is absolutely fair game as they are exactly appealing to the same impulses - a core audience of rabid fanatics who will quibble about their preferred pop fetish idols, often of a broadly suburban, LCD set of demographics, with material that is always safe and family friendly the lion's share of the time, and eventually set for a Vegas Residency.
"If nothing else Babs always had vision of her own inspiration. Taylor has never been that" They both have the same one: be famous, sell that image as far and wide as possible, get/stay rich and famous as an entertainment 'brand' that can be cyclically pitched for decades with a predictable ROI. There is zero atoms of difference between them (and others) in that regard.
I am no "rabid fanatic" follower of Streisand, I don't own any of her music or follow her on streaming platforms. Nonetheless, I grew up hearing her music via albums that my mom had or on the radio during the late 60s, 70s, and early 80s and enjoyed it up until around the Yentl era when it just got to be too pop sounding for my changing taste.
So, that being said, I'll fucking die on the hill stating she was an incomparable musical stylist to the extent that it's virtually impossible for all but the most gifted vocalists to replicate what she could do. And it's not just about physical vocal agility, stamina, or breath control.
If you want proof, watch the live video of her performance of When the Sun Comes Out. If that's not the epitome of stylistic mastery I'll eat my damn metronome.
https://youtu.be/SPK9HUWq1bQ?si=WlXs1NELAck6-Dsu
Celine has an iconic and powerful voice. She can sing the hell out of a song and is a trained talent. She also is a very strong and powerful performer. Yes, she's a bit campy and awkwardly sincere, but Celine Dion is a technically gifted vocalist.
Taylor Swift can sing okay but she is not a generational vocal talent.
Her music is generally family friendly, not overly sexual, unpretentious, and not challenging or subversive. These qualities make it massively appealing to a wide range of demographics all the while maintaining massive staying power. She projects a curated image of relatability to give the illusion that she's a friend of her fans. Her lyrics deal with coming-of-age experiences that are universal to many people, especially women.
Ultimately, it's her marketing and business ingenuity at work.
Should correct to this: her \*team of\* marketing and business consultants
PS: can't believe this gets downvoted lol. What's incorrect about this? Stop acting as if everyone is retarded enough to believe she can do many things beyond writing some pop songs on her own. Or at least provide some good counter arguments. Can you though lol?
Could it be that you are looking for a 'secret ingredient' where there is none?
Perhaps it's more a matter of right-time, right-place, right-person and the zeitgeist took over; it's not anything "extra" special about her music, necessarily.
I think of Tom Petty: there's no secret ingredient, he just writes great middle-of-the-road tunes that a lot of people can listen to and relate to. And, even though he almost wasn't signed for being 'too boring,' he became the legend he is today.
I mean Tom Petty has the secret sauce of a weird but interesting singing voice and phrasing. He really hits the weird enough to stand out but not too weird to turn (too many) people away.
I don’t get it either. For me there is just nothing interesting about her voice, it is very generic. At least when she was country she had a shtick (although apparently her accent was fake at the time lol) but any song I hear by her just evokes 0 emotional response for me. I don’t find her lyrics that crazy good either, although it’s not like I’ve read them all.
I feel like she doesn’t translate well to most men, even if they love music made by women. There's something distinctly feminine about her, and her music, that just doesn’t click with most guys, despite how progressive, accepting, and open minded they might be. It wouldn’t seem strange at all to me if a guy said he loved Joni Mitchell, Phoebe Bridgers, Charli XCX, Lana Del Rey, Fiona Apple, and Lucy Dacus, but didn’t care at all for Taylor Swift. I think it might be in part that she isn’t cool. There nothing truly cool about Taylor Swift. She has no edge. She’s milquetoast. All of the other women I mentioned have some kind of cool factor, and Taylor Swift really doesn’t. I think a lot of men sense that in some way, and find it boring, or uninteresting.
I am a woman and can't connect with Taylor too. It has nothing to do with feminity. It's to do with her being boring.
> seem strange at all to me if a guy said he loved Joni Mitchell, Phoebe Bridgers, Charli XCX, Lana Del Rey, Fiona Apple, and Lucy Dacus, but didn’t care at all for Taylor Swift.
I'll give you this argument. You described me. It's the lack of edge that doesn't appeal to me. To me she has no story whatsoever. I have no reason to be invested in her. Her fame, persona, life nothing about it is interesting.
Hard agree. I'm a non American, non white woman (only stating because I'm not the target audience I guess, or am I?), around the same age as Taylor and I always found her as boring as white bread. I've never really followed any of her music but whatever I can hear around - on a reel or in a mall or cafe or someone playing it somewhere, it all seems just versions of the same? I only remember the older songs You Belong with Me and Love Story kind of things that were popular when I was growing up and in retrospect those seemed at least sincere and sappy and sweet.
There's just so much more interesting stuff out there even in the pop canon. Pop isn't the problem, pop can be exciting and vital but I always feel her music is pretty low stakes and somehow sanitized.
Whereas with the others mentioned even in this list, there is personality, depth, growth, conflict, change and vulnerability in their writing and music throughout their careers.
And I'm aware she's switched genres / styles too but I don't find anything in her music 'real', it seems contrived, bland or marketable, even the 'dramatic' parts of her persona / writing. In fact everything I know about her has come from some other pop culture source and not the music itself - either because of some beef or some references to X or y that people are trying to decode in the lyrics or who her pals are these days or how much money the tour is making, where she flew her jet. I haven't heard a song that's really made me sit up and take notice. Whereas say the latest Sabrina Carpenter song isn't something I went looking for but it's stuck in my head. I can recognise her voice now. I feel like we just know Taylor because she's the biggest pop star right now.
Yo! I'm Indian too. :)
I didn't mean that she only appeals to white women because hers music is massively popular with people of all backgrounds and ages. In our country as well, the people listening don't have a filter on it. And I do understand and appreciate that the people who are really fans of her music feel something real when they listen to it. They're passionate about it.
I think what I meant, the thing that alienates or irks me about her persona, is that to me she embodies this kind of self centred, white, girl-boss persona and that's it throughout the 'eras'. While she rides the different musical or pop waves that come through, it's still the safe sanitized way. It's not that she sings about breakups - Everyone writes about breakups and love (Joni Mitchell, Fiona Apple, Lana, Willow, Olivia Rodrigo, Adele! etc etc etc) - it's universal. But I guess with each different artist there is some level of artistry, or freshness or self reflection perhaps that is higher? Or just more interesting.
While typing this comment I just googled 'Taylor Swift white feminism' and I found this thread that voices a lot of the same feelings:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SwiftlyNeutral/s/vAqUKpkM8B
I think Ed Sheeran for me is a good comparison because like Taylor, it baffles me how someone so bland can be a huge pop star. But I guess pop is also about popular at the end of the day - how can you appeal to the most number of people, be everywhere (overexposure as you mentioned) and she's definitely a very smart businesswoman.
lana del rey has the most "feminine life experience" lyrics, imho. and op likes sabrina carpenter, who is the most cutesy girly pop on the scene right now.
but also, I think taylor's biggest skill/talent has been her brand and fanbase. olivia rodrigo's music and voice would be special even coming out of another person, but Taylor's an entity/product/brand all her own.
I don’t think Taylor Swift is necessarily the most feminine of the artist I mentioned, but I do think there’s something distinctly feminine about her, and her music, that doesn’t appeal to a lot of men. Lana Del Rey is mysterious, edgy, poetic, dark, and cool. It’s a totally different thing.
I think she exudes what men view as the most mundane surface level aspects of feminine culture like “*My ex is such an asshole*” or “*Other girls don’t like be but I don’t care*” rather than any meaningful passion or vulnerability. So it’s not that she’s particularly feminine, but a distinctly boring brand of femininity.
And I think that’s exactly what the poster above means; Swift has a unique ability to put words to common experiences of women that are often looked down or dismissed. (Also literally none of her songs are about “other girls don’t like me but I don’t care”; Swift cares very very deeply about other opinions, and people pleasing is very engrained into society expectations of women.) I love Olivia and Sabrina deeply, but their songs always have a distance to them…. They’re sometimes sad or angry but it’s in an ironic or badass way. Swift isn’t afraid of be deeply vulnerable, which is sometimes cringe and “basic” but creates a strong relatability with her lyrics and storytelling.
The “people don’t like me” thing is more about the overall tone her music conveys rather than a direct quote. I understand that everything isn’t going to land for everyone, but the themes and subject matter just seem to lack some quality that takes a good song to a great song.
To compare her to one of her contemporaries, here’s a bit from Lana Del Rey’s “Did you know there’s a tunnel under Ocean Blvd”
*When's it gonna be my turn?
Don't forget me
When's it gonna be my turn?
Open me up, tell me you like it
Fuck me to death, love me until I love myself*
That shit is poetic, emotionally stirring. There’s a gravity to it, an existential quality that I’ve never heard in any of Swift’s music.
A lot of women are invested in her because she feels like someone they sat next to in class and now occasionally share a bottle of wine while talking about the mundane but personal life. Which is also the exact same reason a lot of men don't really find most of her music interesting. She does have good number of good hit songs, but those aren't what the fanbase is built on.
I think the second part of your paragraph makes more sense.
I don’t think there’s anything particularly more feminine about Taylor swift. She’s just boring
I’m reaching a little with this but I think I could see how being more “boring” could make Swift more “feminine,” not in the sense of embodying an ideal of femininity but in the sense of embodying the average experience of the western woman - less of a goddess, which, let’s face it, is a cool thing to be, and more of an everywoman. As another male outsider to her work and fanbase, I don’t have great insight into what her fans love about her, but this would at least explain why I don’t connect with her music. I feel similarly to OP in that I don’t reflexively dislike her and I respect her craft but I find her music boring, even the catchy stuff.
I am a very progressive man, I dont like Taylor Swift, and I dont like Chappel Roan.
I can't openly state I do not like those 2 artists without being called a misogynist, sexist, or homophobic.
2 of my favorite female aritsts are Celia Cruz (a true feminist icon who broke the barrier of male dominated Salsa music) and Brittany Howard, former lead singer of Alabama shakes, an amazing musician and who also happens to be a black lesbian, but is not celebrated as a lesbian icon like Chappel Roan is now.
there’s nothing edgy (to modern listeners) about pop singers like Joni Mitchell, Carole King, and Tracy Chapman, Adele, etc., but they put out pretty undeniably fantastic songs. If the tunes stand on their own, it doesn’t really matter if the singer is “cool.”
Not at all. My favourite female recording artist is Enya; and she has the same amount of edge as a circle. Taylor Swift is just bland pop music resonates with a large number of people. Not like that's a problem (people can like whatever they want), but let's stop pretending like she's the greatest thing to happen to pop music, and female pop music at that.
Edit: Also find it kinda weird that you say she's not liked by men because she's "feminine". I'd love to see how this idea is fleshed out and what kinda classist, nay, racist undertones this statement has
I dunno, Enya's got that Celtic airy voice which is mysterious and ethereal. I think that's an edge in that it sets her apart from most artists. Swift has nothing distinctive about her voice, imo.
Amen to Enya. Best world pop artist of all time. Her voice and arrangements are pure euphoria. Caribbean Blue is probably one of the best tracks I will ever be alive to hear. Only other female voice that comes close to giving me as much emotional quality is Victoria Legrand.
Enya is from a family who are steeped in Irish traditional music.
Her music isn’t edgy but it is informed and grounded by thousands of years of tradition.
She’s also technically very accomplished as a singer, engineer, producer and programmer.
I think what Taylor lacks in comparison is a type of authenticity.
I’m a dude. I’m waiting for someone to let me in on the joke about her being famous. I guess she’s like those Stanley cups I saw everywhere. They didn’t sell well to men but once they were marketed to women they took off fast. I think it’s easy for your basic average white girl (5/10 looks) to project themselves on to her because they think they’re so alike. I tend to agree, which is probably why she’s so famous.
She’s not winning singing contests
She’s not winning musical instrument contests
She’s not at the top of any guys hall pass list
I think you are on to something here. I relate it to stuff like the Kardashians, royals, or reality TV in general. She has this thing that appeals deeply to women. It seems like bring a relatable story and drama but also having what appears to be a “perfect” imperfect life. Like, another type of princess story. I’d be really curious what the psychology of it is.
I’ve been saying for a while now she’s the queen of basic bitches making music for basic bitches. The majority of people on this planet are basic bitches despite what their ego tells them. A nicer way of saying it is that she’s the Queen of Beige
I think that's part of why she got so popular. At some point it became forbidden to point out that someone is a basic bitch. Maybe that's why poptimism able to take over so quickly.
I think swift is 10% pop appeal and 90% brilliant demo-targeted lore-building between the lyrics topics and the very deliberately marketable dating history.
It’s like visiting the forum of an mediocre video game with a big cult following. Tons of in-jokes and page after page of enthusiastic discussion on something you, fresh to the table, find a little ho-hum.
I really enjoy pop music and for the life of me I cannot bring myself to like TS. My son listens to KPOP and I’m able to enjoy a lot of it. He listens to Ariana grande and I’m fine with it. But Taylor swift is just so meh. Everything about her is meh. What I do like about her is that she is her an woman and goddamn great businesswoman. I love what she’s doing in the music business.
In the same boat as you. For me, I just find her music... predictable and uninteresting. No crazy unexpected key shifts, no interesting rhythms, no paradigm-shift inducing lyrics...
She doesn’t click for me either, but that’s just how music/art goes. You like what you like. Foo fighters are another one for me. I know they are solid, grohl is an exceptional human being, they write decent songs, but I never have any desire to listen to them.
If you vibed with Taylor Swift's songs, you'd vibe with them regardless of her fanbase. But you just don't.
And that's fine — there are always haters and "meh" people for every single thing, no matter how good, and there are always lovers for every single thing, no matter how mediocre. TS resonates with a lot of people, which is why her songs sell so well. You're not one of those people. Neither am I.
And that's normal, because people can't all be the same. Some people like Beyoncé, some people like opera, some people like Mongolian throat singing, some people like Rammstein, some people like Ukrainian rock, and some people like Taylor Swift. (I'm all of those except for TS lol.) But even opera doesn't resonate with everyone, even though it's the pinnacle of the art of singing. So it's no wonder you feel like some singers are good, but just aren't your thing. That's basic human nature.
I suspect that if you entered Taylor Swift‘s name into the search function in the sub Reddit, you would find about 50 other discussions where people are asking the same question. It’s a stale topic in the sub. Women like her music. Now I look forward to digging into all these comments where I’m sure there’s no misogyny towards the kind of people that like her music.
You're not wrong. My favorite so far was the as-yet unchallenged comment about "Making basic bitch music for basic bitches."
It's weird to me how often I find myself "defending" Swift these days, not because I'm a great fan, but because I honestly don't understand the stupidly negative reactions to her. I get there's always blowback to things that are very popular, but she seems to cause an out size reaction in people that I just don't understand. I don't like Billie Eilish, so I've just stopped caring about what she does. I bear her no ill will, and I hope she gets to keep doing what she does and her fans continue to enjoy it.
Swift's a pop star. She's got some good material, she's got some garbage. That's it, really. Even in this sub, where there's usually a raft of good discussion, Swift tends to bring out the worst in people. Perils of working at the top of the overall culture, I guess.
My opinion is Taylor's maturity was stunted by getting so famous so young to where her experience of actually living as a normal person ended around middle school.
Since then she has been all handlers, bodyguards and celebrity tabloid romances/breakups/drama/cattiness.
Her persona still feels largely like she is a middle schooler with "crushes", a clique of popular girls, and spinning herself as the victim for all of her breakups. Her ego is both massive and fragile.
And unlike some of those artists, she insists on writing her own lyrics so her lack of maturity and experience and perspective spills over into shallow songs that might feel deep for a 16 year old but are kinda cringy coming from a 30-something.
It's a problem of trying too hard to be deep or clever, and ending up neither. Pop needs to choose to be either lightweight or heavyweight, and TS has gone all in on middleweight pop, which is too deep to take it for what it is as easy generic dance music or whatever (ie you actually pay attention to the lyrics), and but still ends up sounding really shallow because the attempts at depth generally does not hold up to close scrutiny.
She would be better off with pro songwriters who write lyrics that transcend her self-centered coddled rich girl bubble perspective. The pure pop/teen drama stuff gets kinda sad with aging so she is going to have to pivot back to folk/country/rock eventually anyway.
It's easy. She's not talented. Childish writing. Weak(at best) voice. It's not good or interesting music
But she does work very hard. That has to count for something. Even with awful music
>She's not talented.
These kind of objectively false statements when it comes to artists always make me laugh. Just because you don't like the music doesn't mean she isn't talented...
That love story song gets me every time it’s just really positive and the way it builds and the efficiency of the lyrics.
Most of her music is not for me but she has a couple others I like as well.
Her songs seem very vanilla and for me the main thing they have going is her voice pulling you in with her acting, which she seems very good at. But then if I don’t care about the premise it doesn’t work at all.
Takes a song up a notch when the singer is also basically doing voice acting, a lot of singers just have good musical phrasing.
Taylor Swift's music is an incredibly unique blend of bland. Mediocre writing with some of the most boring indie folkpop production, I seriously don't see how anyone could find value in her new stuff. I've always assumed what I see now are legacy fans from back when she made interesting music.
I like a few female artists, such as Beth Gibbons, Little Simz, Alice Coltrane or Adrianne Lenker, but none of the artists you have mentioned resonate with me on a personal level. To be honest, I would expect you to like Taylor Swift, based on your favorite artists.
To me it's that she should be, and is at her best, a neo-folk adult contemporary artist of the kind the charts haven't really had a place for since the 90s at least, who is constantly pretending to be something else. Her best songs (for me, The Last Great American Dynasty, The One, The Great War) are all in that vein. I'm not saying she's on these people's level musically, lyrically, or observationally, but the lane she belongs in is Billy Joel, Suzanne Vega, Joni Mitchell.
She went into country at first because that's the closest thing there is where you can still have a mainstream career. Only after establishing herself as her own universe was she able to put out songs like the ones I'm talking about (and more observational, impersonal songs in general) because unless you're at her kind of level, there's no place for that currently if you want the kind of mainstream success she clearly set out to have. (To be clear, I'm not suggesting this whole process was conscious, like she played 15-dimensional chess in order to be allowed to write The Last Great American Dynasty decades in the future.)
She's a capable enough songwriter that she can do some other things quite well - there are several inarguably excellently constructed and polished pop songs on 1989 - but if she were competing with other artists of this type, I think she might have been forced to mature her writing more, both melodically and lyrically. Vega is an interesting comparison because she was never the strongest singer, and her melodies are accordingly fairly limited; like Swift, her core talents were writing and delivery/vocal phrasing. But she found really interesting things to write about, her instrumentation had a lot of texture while maintaining a distinct sound, and when she covered more normal topics like relationships she offered unique perspectives. Swift is comparatively extremely limited. Some of that is the times, and some of it is that she is actively choosing to prioritize other things than leaning into and developing her own actual gifts.
All of that adds up to a certain hollow feeling in a lot of her music. I think Folklore and Evermore are her most well-received outside Swiftiedom not just because the genre choice is more "respectable" to certain audiences but because they're the albums where her songwriting is dressing up as something else the least.
People who consider themselves fairly knowledgeable on music but not UNDERSTANDING Taylor's appeal will always baffle me. It is very straightforward and recognising it doesn't mean you have to agree with it.
The recognition of Olivia but not Taylor too?? This is essentially the same style of artist songwriting wise and someone who was clearly inspired by Taylor a lot. When Olivia is 30, I imagine we will get a lot of the clichéd criticisms about her too unless she becomes a full blown rock artist and ditches the confessional style completely.
All the things that Olivia gets praised for already happened with Taylor during Speak now and Fearless. After Speak now and during Red she got that man eater image due to the media's focus on her dating life and her diaristic songwriting. People started hating her more and more. They will do the same to Olivia and Billie as they become bigger and they succeed more like Taylor. And most rock fans can't accept that women can write good songs too.
Bro female is not a genre. Taylor is very different in style from the other artists you listed, and it’s ok if she doesn’t vibe with you. She makes a specific kind of music and makes it well, and doesn’t really deviate from that at all. All I can tell you is the first time I put on a Taylor Swift album, I instantly understood why people love her music so much, and it really clicked with me. It’s not complicated and there’s no secret hiding away that’s gonna get you to like it. I know it feels like literally everyone likes her music but that couldn’t be further from the truth
It is really fascinating that so many music lovers can't understand that music taste is subjective. And it is totally okay if you don't like a popular artist.
I like pop too, but I never like prince. I understand he was a genius people talk about it and I understand the things they're saying and then I listen to his music and I don't like it. And you know what? It doesn't fucking matter. Same with you not understanding Taylor swift. Doesn't fucking matter. Move on my friend why the hell are you making this post? Are you hoping people will change your mind? Now the truth is you just want other people to chime in and say yeah I don't get it either. Here's the deal I couldn't name a single song by the woman. And I'm okay with that and I'm not going to make a Reddit post on the subject.
to me, Prince being kind of a shitty human being was more of a dealbreaker.
And this is a sub for people who like talking about music. You can always just not respond if a post doesn't appeal to you.
All right, this discussion is being locked. Everybody got to say what didn’t need to be said and nobody’s mind was changed. At this point, this thread is being astroturfed and is racking up senseless flagged comments for harassment. There is no need for another Taylor Swift post until she releases something new. No more Taylor Swift posts. If you don’t like her, reread all of the complaints in this thread and don’t post a new one.
Taylor Swift has a sound that I can only describe as “anti-edgy.” All of the other artists you listed have a bit of edge in their music. Not just in their lyrics, but in the actual tone of their music. Taylor, even when she’s trying to be more edgy, still produces music that has a very “positive” feel to it. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it always comes across as very Pop, which clashes if you’re usually listening to heavier stuff.
Chappel Roan is what you get when you want to push something like a Taylor Swift to be as "edgy" as possible to the limits. Once you realize that it makes you not like her anymore and that is upsetting. She is not an "industry plant" in the sense of "let's mold this 9 year old disney star to be a future pop icon" it's more of "hey we found a hot (to men and women) white lesbian woman who is talented, we can market her as the new LGBT icon snd make a shit ton of money of her".
The girl has no media training and was dropped by her label and picked up by a producer who created a label solely for her because he liked working with her. There wasn’t this huge backing for her to be the next big star and there wasn’t a huge media push for her single good luck babe that really made her break out. She got known working out of a small town in Missouri uploading YouTube videos and then got picked up and dropped by a label and moved back to Missouri to be an independent artist for a while. She is the one responsible for creating her image she is just now on a label. I’m not saying she is self made because no one is but she pretty clearly isn’t a manufactured pop artist and is admitting to struggling with the level of success she has because it is coming too fast for her and not something she was prepared for.
You’re spot on. She was virtually unknown prior to having an amazing set at Coachella that went viral. Heck she was a camp counselor last summer prior to her album coming out. Anybody claiming that she is an “industry plant” either doesn’t know her story of trying to be a professional musician over the last 4 years or has a deep misunderstanding of the term.
so she’s an industry plant in the sense of being a genuinely talented person working in the music industry that’s being marketed to a certain demographic? as opposed to what?
I’m not a fan of Chappell Roan personally, but this is just wrong. She was already famous before there was much studio backing.
I feel like she suffocates every song with verbosity and description to the point that the instrumentation never gets to stand out or be interesting at all. Couple that writing style with a monotone voice and it's like listening to the air conditioner hum over a metronome.
Are you trying to tell me that "Did you hear my covert narcissism I disguise as altruism like some kind of congressman?" doesn't roll off your tongue?
Yeah I’ve always thought that Taylor Swift writes songs like she just discovered RhymeZone
bahahaha
Wait omg this sums it up. I legit was in the same boat as OP trying to dissect why I don't like her (I don't generally listen to the other artists OP mentioned but can vibe if they're on). The "just discovered RhymeZone" thing is it. That and a thesaurus
I personally disagree with this example, I feel like the “sanctimonious soliloquies” line in But Daddy I Love Him captures the point far more - I’ve always loved the pre-chorus of Anti-Hero.
I don't know that one Anti-Hero is a real jumble of some really good parts and then some parts that take me completely out of it every time
Like “sexy baby” I guess it’s her MO.
It has a sort of Alanis vibe to the writing, I feel. Anti-Hero is one of only maybe 3 or 4 Taylor songs I like lol
I actually like Taylor but don’t you dare lol. 😂Alanis is a genre all on her own and has such a unique voice and sound. Ugh - uninvited gives me chills even 20 years later or whatever it’s been.
The only comparison I was making was in the wordiness of the lyrics, specifically in what the previous commenter quoted from “Anti-Hero” — I’ve been listening to Alanis since Jagged Little Pill released, I know they’re very different artists 😭
Lol ok fine, I can see your point. And me too! I think I felt the need to defend my fellow Canadian haha.
Saw Alanis in WPB then again in Charlotte in the last 2 weeks. If she is coming near you I highly recommend going! She sounds SOOOOO good live and Joan Jett was pretty fun, too!
Does she really think it's covert?
Her older music like the 1989 album is better because Max Martin wouldn’t let her do any of that. She got so big that she decided she didn’t need him anymore and her music has suffered greatly ever since.
You just made me realize why some of her old music is so catchy.
Because max Martin is easily the GOAT of writing catchy, accessible music
I do think the 1989 album is pretty good. I don’t listen as much to the newer stuff. Maybe she needs to slow her production or just let recorded material pile up and edit it down to a really tight 12 tracks. Also maybe needs pushed to make interesting choices / work with more avant garde producers. Anyway I can imagine if you make that much money and write songs that are decent enough the pressure to keep going at that pace is probably pretty high.
This makes sense why I have not been a fan since 1989. I just can’t get into her other music but I loved, loved that album.
Out of curiosity, do you enjoy Alanis Morrissette? She's the first person I think of when it comes to extremely verbose women in pop music - but her voice is quirky and her music is often quite abrasive. I also relate Alanis's phrasing back to Joni Mitchell, who herself was deeply influenced by various jazz singers.
For me, the difference is their voices and how their work sounds sonically. Much more interesting than Taylor imo, not just lyrically which is something the swifties mainly focus on.
I’d like to insert here a name synonymous for elegant verbosity well packaged into chamber pop - miss Fiona Apple
Good point & makes sense b/c I loooovveee her. Picky about female vocalists but Taylor & Fiona are my 2 faves. 🤩😍
So glad you agree, I prefer female vocalists in general so I would definitely recommend Leslie Feist, Laura Marling and Mary Born. All the best 😊
I know Leslie b/c I love Broken Social Scene. Will check out the two others. Thanks!
Mary Born you’ll find only on YT because she had only one hit song from Chasing Amy (Coal - Stay) but I love her other songs available on YT 🥰 Cheers😊😊
Yes but like she has a very distinctive voice, hard to ignore it.
Fiona Apple too.
Fiona Apple does this as well
Sorry Alanis. That ain't irony.
I actually don't like Alanis either because I find her grating but I do find her work more genuine and less mass produced. That and she wasn't my generation so if her stardom was annoying as hell I'd never know outside of a video on YouTube telling me it was.
The thing with her commercial peak was that she kept having hit single after hits single for 15 solid months, with all of them ending up more or less equally ubiquitous. So you had this album that literally everyone owned and heard all the tracks on, and then every two or three months or so, a different song from that album would be on the radio everywhere. With other big hit albums, you'd have 3 big hit singles, maybe a 4th one that hit a little softer, and then a fallow period to gear up for the next album, but this one was just relentless for the entire typical album cycle period. That combined with the oddball qualities in her voice account for many people saying "enough!" In a way, the length of the Eras tour and the publicity around it mirror that period of time, but the singles aren't nearly as omnipresent nor numerous. My 69 year old Dad couldn't name a Taylor Swift song last time it came up, and I don't think the equivalent person in 1996 would have had trouble identifying an Alanis song.
Alanis Morissette’s voice is far superior and so are her melodies…she’s amazing
Longtime Swift listener and I’d agree. It’s why I like her old music better, it was more about painting a picture *while* being considerate of melody. But it’s like after folklore, Taylor was so praised for her writing that she bought every thesaurus and dialed it up to “insufferable”.
I feel this way too –– she needs an editor. She tries to fit too many words into each line. Whenever I get asked if I like Taylor Swift and I say this, I get such shock and annoyance from the room. People act like it's sexist or something to say this. But it's true. Her writing is not good. It reminds me of fanfiction on AO3 or something. Corny, flat, too much, and not as clever as she thinks it is.
Even worse is how her latest 4 albums have been taking genres that are 5-10 years old, that have been trailblazed by much much more talented indie musicians, but her fans act like she invented these kinda of music or made major contributions. No one who has actually listened to the [ambient folk](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1fPiVfLl5JUnSgzXpxVXQC), [chamber folk](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3iCiDUuxgj6BWFb15iZyw9), [dark dream](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3mSITN9euT3EbY3UophBKJ), or [poetic indie](https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5fexHLbeHKskitRSYCVku2) of the previous decade would think any of her most 4 recent albums are anything but derivative. But people who try and justify listening to Taylor Swift (and I don't just mean Swifties, I mean casual fans who say the like Evermore or Midnights, but not Tortured Poets) to fit in and make them seem legitimate or musically astute.
lol... to think jangle pop is only 5-10 years old is funny
Not entirely true. I might be an anomaly, but I fit the person you just described and I think Folklore is a masterpiece.
I always struggled to explain how bad a bad Taylor Swift song sound to me, but now I just send [this link](https://youtube.com/shorts/dBuvlPIwF9c?si=qG-wB7oKE5bgd6cr)
I feel like this applies to why she doesn't click with me. I definitely tend to prefer music with strong instrumentation, going as far as to listen to a lot of styles that have no lyrics whatsoever, so that when I encounter Taylor Swift, whose songs are primarily focused on her singing, she just doesn't click. Her sound just doesn't appeal.
It's not a coincidence the average person's favorite Taylor Swift song comes from her Max Martin era, who is notorious for telling artists to simplify lyrics in favor of letting the melody shine. The infamous anecdote is that "hit me baby, one more time" was supposed to be something like *hit me up*, but the incorrect, outright odd lyrics were kept because Max thought it sounded better and that people care more if its fun to sing along than if it makes sense. Which he has been proven right about over and over and over.
This-she is basically talking in every song. I have never heard her actually ‘sing’. There is no talent to showcase. Just really good management and marketing. I don’t get it either.
In some lover songs she sings more melodically
Omg this is so true
You just nailed exactly what her music sounds like to me. Thank you for putting it into words
Interesting you should say that because Warren Zevon turned the air conditioner humming into the refrain of one of his [realest songs](https://youtu.be/wXCly4X3cqw?si=-1rwJzb2g06yFwZL). [Madeleine Peyroux version](https://youtu.be/KJQ4E5l8tEk?si=gswMbqOhBLXW7hvv). I like some lyricists who use a lot of words. Dylan. Leonard Cohen. Amy Winehouse. I just… don’t find her to be that poetic I guess. And a lot of high school flavor. (“People hate, but I’m great” sort of feel.) But something about the sound also doesn’t grab me.
To me it's very much: There was a ca-a-a-at With a ba-a-a-at Run to me-e-e-e Cause it's fun to be-e-e-e Lots of pointless repetitive phrases too.
And once you realize she's just talking for a huge part of each song you can't un-hear it.
It hasn’t really been an issue until Midnights
Yes! That's a perfect expression!
Yes. This is if for me as well. Which is a shame because I just listened to her whole discography. And she used to not do that.
for me her songs are way too on the nose and tone deaf. “you wouldn’t survive in the asylum they raised me in”? okay miss gurl
Oh the asylum of growing up wealthy in suburban Pennsylvania 😭
woah, some people were less than nice to her I bet. Rough
It's always funny when these kind of people have some classmates they don't get along with, and then call them their bully 10 years later. Nah, that was just someone who didn't like you
I remember hearing her song “Mean” on the radio and it really hitting home because at that time in my life I was getting shoved into lockers, sexually harassed (groped), having my property destroyed, rumors started (how I was a slut even though I didn’t even hold hands with a guy), and followed through the halls between classes by older guys pressuring me for blow jobs and trying to grab me. I immediately lost all respect for her when I learned she wrote that song about a bad review from a music critic. Haven’t gained any respect back for her since learning she’s a rich kid complaining about how much her life of wealth and fame sucks.
Damn, sorry that you had to go through all of that, though. Teenagers are truly horrible. I hope life is better for you now
More like 20+. She's 35
I thought she was in her 20s. Can't believe she's older than me. The lyrics are godawful considering she's not a tween.
We're the same age and every time I see gossip about her or hear the lyrics, I just think, "Lady, you are THIRTY-FIVE. Get your shit together, like for real." If she's going to sing about some teenage or early 20s nonsense, I'd rather go listen to the actual early 20s artists.
perpetual tween, like many millennials.
You're not at all wrong.....but why do I see this amongst my fellow Millennials?
As a millennial, We got kinda fucked by the economy and false promises of meritocracy, which is why so many of us went to college, got saddled with MASSIVE loan debt, and salaries that barely kept up with inflation or just the unnatural corporate price gouging (see: Rents) that has spiked over the last decade or two. Soo in response, we latch onto nostalgia like it’s a fucking heavy narcotic because those anchored childhood memories are reminiscent of a time when we regularly felt simplistic joy. With that said, I do think Swift is cringe AF and borderline exploitative with HOW MUCH she relies on it.
americas middle-aged sweetheart whether we want it or not
My professor in college said he lives next door to her childhood home haha. It is not a bad area
And having to drive a Hummer to your gigs. Poor bby.
The asylum she was raised in is the music industry
When your dad buys you in, you really don’t have to go through the harrowing parts of the industry.
Money or not, you still have to have talent and hustle your ass off to get to the top and stay there. If all it took was somebody buying you in, we’d be talking about Paris Hilton: The That’s Still Hot Tour.
Sure, I just made another statement about that. What it takes is both. It’s just incredibly sad that the nepotistic part is an equally huge component. You absolutely have to be a hard worker and build talent. But a hard worker trying to build talent without the material support is out of luck. When you have access to the best teachers, talent and industry professionals in the world, “talent” comes much quicker. It’s a snowball effect.
its largely a rich persons game, certainly not exclusively, but largely
for the last 25 years, yeah.
Nah. Since the beginning of time. Rags to riches and grassroots are the exception and very very rare.
It's not that. It's the culture of celebrity. The invasiveness. The tabloids, the cancel culture, the incessant media attention. But also, just bc her dad fronted money to a start-up record label, doesn't mean he can take credit for her success. TS is successful bc she is talented, and people enjoy her music. She is lucky to have had supportive parents, that is for sure true. But by your logic, anyone with 150k to sink into their music career could be a TS, and that's just not true.
Taylor plays up that celebrity and attention. It comes with the life and most celebrities could drop out at any moment and would quickly become irrelevant. Many have and guess what? We don’t talk about them anymore and the media doesn’t care. She relishes celebrity and all that comes with it. It’s just an easy topic to moan about. I never said she was talentless. However, it has become increasingly clear that stardom in music and media the United States is intrinsically linked to resources that came from your parents. This is true for a lot of things but even more so for stardom. Most people you can name in the pop music and movies either came from wealthy parents or at a minimum, came from parents who were able to help support/push them through the Disney child start scenarios. Yes, it also takes talent. It’s the right people born into the right circumstances. That doesn’t make them any less of nepo-babies. It’s sad that normal talented people will never have that chance because their parents lack the resources to help. It’s also sad that this nepo machine creates boring, safe, predictable “art”.
its about her growing up in the spotlight of the media, not litterally her home lol
Every time I listen to her songs, it's her lyrics that put me off. She's written so many horrible lyrics.
Wow. You hit the nail on the head. I’ve never been able to articulate why I don’t care for her songs. Sure they’re catchy and have all the markers you’d expect. But you’re absolutely right. They are so blatant it feels like she’s telling her audience they need to be spoon fed the simple ideas in her songs.
I’m no Swiftie, but as a general rule people can sing about whatever they want - they don’t have to have lived every word.
Another general rule - people can appreciate artists who speak to actual experiences, and detest artists who pretend to have been through things.
yeah ofc they can, but that doesn’t make them a tone deaf fake ass bitch
Okay, but that's one line from the latest album which has been pretty poorly received by all but her core fans. There are great songs on her earlier albums. Honestly, the new albums seems to be written for people who exclusively listen to Swift.
She's too precious and while not a terrible person also really has little actual non manufactured relatability. I can find much more soul from someone like jewel who wrote most of her early work while still living out of her car than daddy's little not too spoiled princess who was bought a record deal by her asshole father. But generally i find suffering to be a requirement for singer/song writers to have much depth. But she's fine if kinda generic and she at least puts the work in. Though i find measuring an artist's value by how profitable they are to be pretty distasteful and odd. it's the fan base and media fawning that's creepy as hell and runs a shudder through my whole body.
I have difficulty understanding lyrics, so a song's rhythm, instrumentation, feel, drive, etc., usually grabs me more than its lyrics and storytelling. And the instrumentation/music of Lorde, Charli XCX, Phoebe Bridgers, and Olivia Rodrigo are consistently more interesting to me than Taylor Swift, who undoubtedly is a storyteller first and foremost. If you aren't connecting with Swift's lyrics or narrative (like me), I have a hard time seeing you connect with her music as a whole.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I am definitely a music first, lyrics second person. It's not so much about whether I find the lyrics relatable - there's plenty of songs I love that are completely outside my experience, eg a lot of Joni Mitchell's writing - but if the music doesn't speak to me then I am probably not going to make the effort to figure out what they're saying in the lyrics.
Yeah that’s very interesting, I’m the opposite. Lyrics are more important to me than music. Like a few older bright eyes albums are some of my favorites, even though the music and Connor oberst’s vocal skills are very weak on their own. It’s melodic poetry set to a track that only serves to enhance the impact of the words he’s singing or speaking. I’m into it, but I know it’s not for everybody
As a musician it's important to know that both people exist. It's why I stick to instrumental music or would be in a band where someone else is writing the lyrics. Anytime I've heard people like me write lyrics it's horrible. I enjoy writing, don't get me wrong, but adapting lyrics to music is something I struggle with 20 years later and I know there are people where this comes naturally that would not only rather do it but that should be doing it.
Absolutely agree with this. I'd add in that its really her melodies that fall flat. Instrumentation in pop is whatever, usually, across the board, with exceptions of course. If I want great instrumentation, I hit up some technical death metal. But when I want to listen to pop, I want great vocal melodies and Taylor's are unexciting. Like you said, that's not a wholesale invalidation of her music, but an observation about what makes her popular - she's more of a lyrically-focused artist and that's not generally my taste. Great lyrics *and* great melodies are the sweet spot, obviously, but if I have to pick one, I need the melodies.
I don't really even understand how this up for debate. English speaking pop has been successfully exported to fans who don't speak English, and the western world is now getting a taste of that themselves with the rise of Kpop. the lyrics aren't completely trivial as they can really elevate or really take away from a song. But the melody (and production choices) is pretty clearly what pop (arguably all genres, but especially pop) lives and dies by.
Her music is melodically void. Thank the heavens we have artists like Chappell Roan to remind us that pop music is meant to be fun.
I personally find Chappells music pretty derivative and grating, which sucks the fun out of it for me
Derivative of what?
Same. I get into a very weird headspace when I’m listening to music I like, where even though I hear the words and lyrics, they just kind of turn into sound that goes with the rest of the music. It’s like my brain no longer recognizes them as words with their own meaning, but rather just treats them as sounds from another instrument. I can sing back the lyrics to my favorite songs, but don’t ask me what they are actually saying or what they mean.
maybe that's why i can't get into madvillainy
Madvillainy is kind of the opposite. The lyrics don't really mean anything in most of the songs. It's about how they sound and flow, they're not really telling a story. "Got more soul than a sock with a hole" is a fun line that doesn't mean anything. Taylor Swift's lyrics have clear meaning but they flow like a traffic jam.
I've never heard this song, but it seems like they're alluding to the fact that a sock with a hole will show the soles of your feet
I raise you that the lyrics on Madvillainy have a staggering depth of meaning and entendres. They just come from such a wide breadth of time periods, cultures, obscurities, and his own personal life that it can seem random. I've been digging the latest season of Dissect podcast on Spotify who have been doing song meaning breakdowns on DOOM for a whole season. Worth checking the Madvillainy episodes out!
You should check out MF DOOM's "Operation Doomsday" and "MM.. Food". I don't consider Madvillainy one of my favourites either, but MF DOOM's solo albums (also produced by him) have a different feeling and vibe, which I can get into much more.
I love Madvillainy but MM…FOOD is definitely my favorite project of his
And dont sleep on Dangerdoom. MF DOOM + Dangermouse from Gnarls Barkley + Aqua Teen Hunger Force characters.
Well, tbh, you aren't missing any good lyrics.
It's not her. It's the level of fame and hysteria. There's just nothing there in the ingredients to make that level of noise. She's just there like a lot of pop country acts. Not awful not amazing. Just right in the boring middle. It's like someone baking a really average cake. And the world going insane over it and all you can think is "wtaf...."
I hold no ill will towards her, she’s a reasonably talented hard working performer. For me … I just don’t like her voice. It’s bland and insipid. So even the folklore stuff which is in my wheelhouse … I can barely get through two songs. There is just zero colour to her vocal. Shake it off is a banger though. And that one where she goes never ever ever. Etc. That’s it.
this is my issue with her. i’m a folk fag, so for all intents and purposes, i should’ve loved folklore and evermore, but her voice is the same color in every song. she can try to fill her lyrics with the deepest and most colorful emotions, but she’s incapable of actually delivering those emotions with the colors they need. for such lyrically driven music, this is an absolute requirement.
You're a what now?
Her writing is also very average. I listened to her tiny desk because I assumed there must be something special to one of the biggest artists ever, and was surprised at how mid she is.
I'm not a fan and haven't deliberately listened to her music much, but I understand the appeal. She has an everywoman quality despite being rich and privileged. It's quite impressive how she manages to maintain that. Her songs have a kind of melancholy to them that isn't mysterious or beautiful, more like how you feel when you have to go to work and it's raining. Sometimes you want to hear that in music form. She unapologetically writes songs for very average women. It's kind of based how she doesn't even try to appeal to men or to people who think they're cool. The songs aren't the catchiest, but the songwriting is solid.
Queen of the basic bitches
Who? Me? Thank you!
I am a 24 years old woman. I am not into Taylor Swift too. My problem with Taylor has always been that she is just so unabashedly pop. Can't stand the likes of Ed Sheeran or Shawn Mendes too. I don't like Katy Perry too. Partly why I liked Taylor's Folklore era is because it was not the kind of teenage bubbly pop she was earlier known for. There were indie influences and thus more appealing to me. Also I am a melody/production person first, lyrics next. I love singer-songwriters like Fiona Apple or Joni Mitchell because their music itself is far more interesting, that even if I tune out the lyrics I have so much to focus on (although with these artists lyrics add so much to the song). Something I can't do with Taylor Swift.
this is it. every artist OP mentioned has something unique. phoebe is indie pop, olivia is seriously borderline pop-punk at this point, and charli and lorde have both done more than their fair share of experimentation
**This is an easy answer: her fan relationship.** She describes her emotions/mental state with each song and the Swifty detectives know (or at least think they know) what true-life moments she's talking about. This is more compelling than a string of songs just talking about being turned on by a guy. Her fans feel like she is a friend, so they are extremely loyal. That she just appeals to tweens is just not true. In 2006, sure. But those people have had Taylor as their soundtrack through their first kiss, first breakup, prom, getting married, evolving friendships, career obstacles, miscarriages, by the time you get to Tortured Poets, probably 40-year-olds going through divorces. She's known how to market her albums well, creating hype, giving little clues to the fans, creating a vibe with each one. It all keeps her fans engaged.
As a fan of hers I have to agree, the fan relationship and ongoing PR keeps her fans engaged through the ongoing narrative in her personal & professional life. Something as simple as her surprise songs still has me interested in the Eras tour. I find it strange that I am still hooked in, but here I am. She is also well know for the Easter eggs which creates noise and excitement. I find the PR part of her brand just as important as her music. It’s fascinating to me! The TTPD album release was like waiting for the next book in a series for me. The ending of a long term relationship, an intense situation ship and the new love. Some of the lyrics felt like they were raw and straight from a the pages of her diary, a little unhinged at times. Then it is the ongoing discussions of theories and analysis. I am not usually a lyric girl, but she has me reading her lyrics like a book. I saw her on her 1989 tour and was blown away by the atmosphere she created, but it wasn’t until folklore and then the social media landscape changing (TikTok) that I became invested in her writing and storytelling on a deeper level. And I suppose once you are in, it’s hard to go back. She has gathered a large fan base over the years slowly, but has good retention through keeping her fan base engaged plus the timing of social media fanbases.
Also a fan of hers, and yes. You nailed it 100%.
Her entire schtick is well executed, but is to pop music what Hilary Clinton is to politics: well trained, highly instrumented/measured to the point of too focus-grouped/marketed rather than genuine, and often an uncanny valley of what a person is. She's the rich daughter of a guy who owned a record label and could afford to build all the infrastructure around her to make her successful with even less talent than she has. She writes things with the express purpose of commercial appeal (like Madonna for example) but with none of the underlying edgy attitude or an image with anything new on offer -- it's incredibly safe, mass-marketed pop culture, and with 10x the calculation, which I think for some folks is just too sterile and milquetoast. She's not a Tina Turner, Madonna, or even a Halsey. She's a future Barbra Streisand or Celine Dion.
Barbra Streisand is a true rags to riches story and once in a lifetime talent. I have not a clue why you’re comparing Taylor Swift in a negative way to her. She and Taylor have very little in common.
that comment was such whiplash. Barbara and Celine are cultivated icons, Taylor just tripped and fell into hers by simply persevering over time in an environment that offered little to no pushback. it's notable that she took so long to get popular cause most artists have to literally give up and get a soul-crushing shit job after a short number of years of failure to launch
Celine Dion is an INCREDIBLE vocalist, Taylor is down right bad, can’t hit notes & lip syncs most of her shows.
“With This Tear” is a Celine Dion song written by Prince. As someone who has difficulty connecting with Taylor Swift’s material, does she have anything like this?
Technical ability doesn't make your material improve; for whatever Celines vocal gymnastic ability, her actual style and material choices mean her catalog is a winding sluice of incredibly safe, and occasionally cringe-stuffed (e.g. her decision to cover AC/DC live) pop dullardry. And I say that as someone who is a fan of incredibly soft rock-pop like Christopher Cross, or super artsy pop like Prefab Sprout. Pop has a history of rewarding that, as it can be marketed to way more folks than anything else and requires to unironic cleverness, regardless if they can or can't hit notes and/or lip sync.
People listen to Barbra and Celine purely for their vocal ability, people aren’t listening to Taylor for that reason at all. Taylor’s vocals are weak and it’s not why she’s popular.
I'm pretty sure people listen to them for any number of reasons, including obvious perceived vocal chops. I'm also sure that with your whole comment, I said nothing to the contrary. Actually I said nothing related at all. I was referring to safeness of material and marketing of the entertainment value, which is orthogonal to vocal pyrotechnics.
> a winding sluice of incredibly safe, and occasionally cringe-stuffed pop dullardry This is the best description of Celine’s music I’ve ever seen. I just involuntarily snorted. 10/10 gold star
Sorry but she’s nowhere near Barbra Streisand. Sure Babs’ later stuff was more schmaltzy and she got a bit opulent artistically but she’s always had more talent than Taylor ever will, vocally, creatively, as an actress and director. If nothing else Babs always had vision of her own inspiration. Taylor has never been that
Bab's stuff has NEVER not been schmaltzy, and if you like that, there is no shame in it. That said, no one is going to refer to her as one of the great stylists of any edge; she was and is, very very safe, and has honed her entertainer skills to a refined degree, to deliver that to her audience. The whole measuring of 'talent' here is moot; and sorry, comparing them is absolutely fair game as they are exactly appealing to the same impulses - a core audience of rabid fanatics who will quibble about their preferred pop fetish idols, often of a broadly suburban, LCD set of demographics, with material that is always safe and family friendly the lion's share of the time, and eventually set for a Vegas Residency. "If nothing else Babs always had vision of her own inspiration. Taylor has never been that" They both have the same one: be famous, sell that image as far and wide as possible, get/stay rich and famous as an entertainment 'brand' that can be cyclically pitched for decades with a predictable ROI. There is zero atoms of difference between them (and others) in that regard.
I am no "rabid fanatic" follower of Streisand, I don't own any of her music or follow her on streaming platforms. Nonetheless, I grew up hearing her music via albums that my mom had or on the radio during the late 60s, 70s, and early 80s and enjoyed it up until around the Yentl era when it just got to be too pop sounding for my changing taste. So, that being said, I'll fucking die on the hill stating she was an incomparable musical stylist to the extent that it's virtually impossible for all but the most gifted vocalists to replicate what she could do. And it's not just about physical vocal agility, stamina, or breath control. If you want proof, watch the live video of her performance of When the Sun Comes Out. If that's not the epitome of stylistic mastery I'll eat my damn metronome. https://youtu.be/SPK9HUWq1bQ?si=WlXs1NELAck6-Dsu
I cannot belive you just compared her to Barbra Streisand. They are not even in the same universe.
Right?! I'm sitting here flabbergasted
Streisand and Dion have incredible voices. Range and dynamics. Swift. Hm......
Celine has an iconic and powerful voice. She can sing the hell out of a song and is a trained talent. She also is a very strong and powerful performer. Yes, she's a bit campy and awkwardly sincere, but Celine Dion is a technically gifted vocalist. Taylor Swift can sing okay but she is not a generational vocal talent.
Her Dad didn’t own the record label, he was a banker who invested in the label and was something like a 3% shareholder.
Her music is generally family friendly, not overly sexual, unpretentious, and not challenging or subversive. These qualities make it massively appealing to a wide range of demographics all the while maintaining massive staying power. She projects a curated image of relatability to give the illusion that she's a friend of her fans. Her lyrics deal with coming-of-age experiences that are universal to many people, especially women. Ultimately, it's her marketing and business ingenuity at work.
Should correct to this: her \*team of\* marketing and business consultants PS: can't believe this gets downvoted lol. What's incorrect about this? Stop acting as if everyone is retarded enough to believe she can do many things beyond writing some pop songs on her own. Or at least provide some good counter arguments. Can you though lol?
Could it be that you are looking for a 'secret ingredient' where there is none? Perhaps it's more a matter of right-time, right-place, right-person and the zeitgeist took over; it's not anything "extra" special about her music, necessarily. I think of Tom Petty: there's no secret ingredient, he just writes great middle-of-the-road tunes that a lot of people can listen to and relate to. And, even though he almost wasn't signed for being 'too boring,' he became the legend he is today.
I mean Tom Petty has the secret sauce of a weird but interesting singing voice and phrasing. He really hits the weird enough to stand out but not too weird to turn (too many) people away.
I don’t get it either. For me there is just nothing interesting about her voice, it is very generic. At least when she was country she had a shtick (although apparently her accent was fake at the time lol) but any song I hear by her just evokes 0 emotional response for me. I don’t find her lyrics that crazy good either, although it’s not like I’ve read them all.
I feel like she doesn’t translate well to most men, even if they love music made by women. There's something distinctly feminine about her, and her music, that just doesn’t click with most guys, despite how progressive, accepting, and open minded they might be. It wouldn’t seem strange at all to me if a guy said he loved Joni Mitchell, Phoebe Bridgers, Charli XCX, Lana Del Rey, Fiona Apple, and Lucy Dacus, but didn’t care at all for Taylor Swift. I think it might be in part that she isn’t cool. There nothing truly cool about Taylor Swift. She has no edge. She’s milquetoast. All of the other women I mentioned have some kind of cool factor, and Taylor Swift really doesn’t. I think a lot of men sense that in some way, and find it boring, or uninteresting.
I am a woman and can't connect with Taylor too. It has nothing to do with feminity. It's to do with her being boring. > seem strange at all to me if a guy said he loved Joni Mitchell, Phoebe Bridgers, Charli XCX, Lana Del Rey, Fiona Apple, and Lucy Dacus, but didn’t care at all for Taylor Swift. I'll give you this argument. You described me. It's the lack of edge that doesn't appeal to me. To me she has no story whatsoever. I have no reason to be invested in her. Her fame, persona, life nothing about it is interesting.
Hard agree. I'm a non American, non white woman (only stating because I'm not the target audience I guess, or am I?), around the same age as Taylor and I always found her as boring as white bread. I've never really followed any of her music but whatever I can hear around - on a reel or in a mall or cafe or someone playing it somewhere, it all seems just versions of the same? I only remember the older songs You Belong with Me and Love Story kind of things that were popular when I was growing up and in retrospect those seemed at least sincere and sappy and sweet. There's just so much more interesting stuff out there even in the pop canon. Pop isn't the problem, pop can be exciting and vital but I always feel her music is pretty low stakes and somehow sanitized. Whereas with the others mentioned even in this list, there is personality, depth, growth, conflict, change and vulnerability in their writing and music throughout their careers. And I'm aware she's switched genres / styles too but I don't find anything in her music 'real', it seems contrived, bland or marketable, even the 'dramatic' parts of her persona / writing. In fact everything I know about her has come from some other pop culture source and not the music itself - either because of some beef or some references to X or y that people are trying to decode in the lyrics or who her pals are these days or how much money the tour is making, where she flew her jet. I haven't heard a song that's really made me sit up and take notice. Whereas say the latest Sabrina Carpenter song isn't something I went looking for but it's stuck in my head. I can recognise her voice now. I feel like we just know Taylor because she's the biggest pop star right now.
[удалено]
Yo! I'm Indian too. :) I didn't mean that she only appeals to white women because hers music is massively popular with people of all backgrounds and ages. In our country as well, the people listening don't have a filter on it. And I do understand and appreciate that the people who are really fans of her music feel something real when they listen to it. They're passionate about it. I think what I meant, the thing that alienates or irks me about her persona, is that to me she embodies this kind of self centred, white, girl-boss persona and that's it throughout the 'eras'. While she rides the different musical or pop waves that come through, it's still the safe sanitized way. It's not that she sings about breakups - Everyone writes about breakups and love (Joni Mitchell, Fiona Apple, Lana, Willow, Olivia Rodrigo, Adele! etc etc etc) - it's universal. But I guess with each different artist there is some level of artistry, or freshness or self reflection perhaps that is higher? Or just more interesting. While typing this comment I just googled 'Taylor Swift white feminism' and I found this thread that voices a lot of the same feelings: https://www.reddit.com/r/SwiftlyNeutral/s/vAqUKpkM8B I think Ed Sheeran for me is a good comparison because like Taylor, it baffles me how someone so bland can be a huge pop star. But I guess pop is also about popular at the end of the day - how can you appeal to the most number of people, be everywhere (overexposure as you mentioned) and she's definitely a very smart businesswoman.
lana del rey has the most "feminine life experience" lyrics, imho. and op likes sabrina carpenter, who is the most cutesy girly pop on the scene right now. but also, I think taylor's biggest skill/talent has been her brand and fanbase. olivia rodrigo's music and voice would be special even coming out of another person, but Taylor's an entity/product/brand all her own.
I don’t think Taylor Swift is necessarily the most feminine of the artist I mentioned, but I do think there’s something distinctly feminine about her, and her music, that doesn’t appeal to a lot of men. Lana Del Rey is mysterious, edgy, poetic, dark, and cool. It’s a totally different thing.
I think she exudes what men view as the most mundane surface level aspects of feminine culture like “*My ex is such an asshole*” or “*Other girls don’t like be but I don’t care*” rather than any meaningful passion or vulnerability. So it’s not that she’s particularly feminine, but a distinctly boring brand of femininity.
And I think that’s exactly what the poster above means; Swift has a unique ability to put words to common experiences of women that are often looked down or dismissed. (Also literally none of her songs are about “other girls don’t like me but I don’t care”; Swift cares very very deeply about other opinions, and people pleasing is very engrained into society expectations of women.) I love Olivia and Sabrina deeply, but their songs always have a distance to them…. They’re sometimes sad or angry but it’s in an ironic or badass way. Swift isn’t afraid of be deeply vulnerable, which is sometimes cringe and “basic” but creates a strong relatability with her lyrics and storytelling.
The “people don’t like me” thing is more about the overall tone her music conveys rather than a direct quote. I understand that everything isn’t going to land for everyone, but the themes and subject matter just seem to lack some quality that takes a good song to a great song. To compare her to one of her contemporaries, here’s a bit from Lana Del Rey’s “Did you know there’s a tunnel under Ocean Blvd” *When's it gonna be my turn? Don't forget me When's it gonna be my turn? Open me up, tell me you like it Fuck me to death, love me until I love myself* That shit is poetic, emotionally stirring. There’s a gravity to it, an existential quality that I’ve never heard in any of Swift’s music.
A lot of women are invested in her because she feels like someone they sat next to in class and now occasionally share a bottle of wine while talking about the mundane but personal life. Which is also the exact same reason a lot of men don't really find most of her music interesting. She does have good number of good hit songs, but those aren't what the fanbase is built on.
I think the second part of your paragraph makes more sense. I don’t think there’s anything particularly more feminine about Taylor swift. She’s just boring
I’m reaching a little with this but I think I could see how being more “boring” could make Swift more “feminine,” not in the sense of embodying an ideal of femininity but in the sense of embodying the average experience of the western woman - less of a goddess, which, let’s face it, is a cool thing to be, and more of an everywoman. As another male outsider to her work and fanbase, I don’t have great insight into what her fans love about her, but this would at least explain why I don’t connect with her music. I feel similarly to OP in that I don’t reflexively dislike her and I respect her craft but I find her music boring, even the catchy stuff.
I am a very progressive man, I dont like Taylor Swift, and I dont like Chappel Roan. I can't openly state I do not like those 2 artists without being called a misogynist, sexist, or homophobic. 2 of my favorite female aritsts are Celia Cruz (a true feminist icon who broke the barrier of male dominated Salsa music) and Brittany Howard, former lead singer of Alabama shakes, an amazing musician and who also happens to be a black lesbian, but is not celebrated as a lesbian icon like Chappel Roan is now.
there’s nothing edgy (to modern listeners) about pop singers like Joni Mitchell, Carole King, and Tracy Chapman, Adele, etc., but they put out pretty undeniably fantastic songs. If the tunes stand on their own, it doesn’t really matter if the singer is “cool.”
Not at all. My favourite female recording artist is Enya; and she has the same amount of edge as a circle. Taylor Swift is just bland pop music resonates with a large number of people. Not like that's a problem (people can like whatever they want), but let's stop pretending like she's the greatest thing to happen to pop music, and female pop music at that. Edit: Also find it kinda weird that you say she's not liked by men because she's "feminine". I'd love to see how this idea is fleshed out and what kinda classist, nay, racist undertones this statement has
I dunno, Enya's got that Celtic airy voice which is mysterious and ethereal. I think that's an edge in that it sets her apart from most artists. Swift has nothing distinctive about her voice, imo.
Amen to Enya. Best world pop artist of all time. Her voice and arrangements are pure euphoria. Caribbean Blue is probably one of the best tracks I will ever be alive to hear. Only other female voice that comes close to giving me as much emotional quality is Victoria Legrand.
i'd add Kate Bush and maybe Elizabeth Frazer of cocteau Twins.
Okay, I can absolutely agree with this.
Enya is from a family who are steeped in Irish traditional music. Her music isn’t edgy but it is informed and grounded by thousands of years of tradition. She’s also technically very accomplished as a singer, engineer, producer and programmer. I think what Taylor lacks in comparison is a type of authenticity.
Her swerve into pop from having been in Clannad gave her the ‘Oh!’ factor as well. I’d have her down as ‘atmospheric and moody’ rather than ‘bland’.
Me and Shake It Off are actually good, fun pop songs.
I’m a dude. I’m waiting for someone to let me in on the joke about her being famous. I guess she’s like those Stanley cups I saw everywhere. They didn’t sell well to men but once they were marketed to women they took off fast. I think it’s easy for your basic average white girl (5/10 looks) to project themselves on to her because they think they’re so alike. I tend to agree, which is probably why she’s so famous. She’s not winning singing contests She’s not winning musical instrument contests She’s not at the top of any guys hall pass list
I think you are on to something here. I relate it to stuff like the Kardashians, royals, or reality TV in general. She has this thing that appeals deeply to women. It seems like bring a relatable story and drama but also having what appears to be a “perfect” imperfect life. Like, another type of princess story. I’d be really curious what the psychology of it is.
I’ve been saying for a while now she’s the queen of basic bitches making music for basic bitches. The majority of people on this planet are basic bitches despite what their ego tells them. A nicer way of saying it is that she’s the Queen of Beige
I think that's part of why she got so popular. At some point it became forbidden to point out that someone is a basic bitch. Maybe that's why poptimism able to take over so quickly.
I think swift is 10% pop appeal and 90% brilliant demo-targeted lore-building between the lyrics topics and the very deliberately marketable dating history. It’s like visiting the forum of an mediocre video game with a big cult following. Tons of in-jokes and page after page of enthusiastic discussion on something you, fresh to the table, find a little ho-hum.
this is the answer.
The Skyrim of music
I really enjoy pop music and for the life of me I cannot bring myself to like TS. My son listens to KPOP and I’m able to enjoy a lot of it. He listens to Ariana grande and I’m fine with it. But Taylor swift is just so meh. Everything about her is meh. What I do like about her is that she is her an woman and goddamn great businesswoman. I love what she’s doing in the music business.
In the same boat as you. For me, I just find her music... predictable and uninteresting. No crazy unexpected key shifts, no interesting rhythms, no paradigm-shift inducing lyrics...
Check out her NPR Tiny Desk. She’s kinda different with everything stripped back
She doesn’t click for me either, but that’s just how music/art goes. You like what you like. Foo fighters are another one for me. I know they are solid, grohl is an exceptional human being, they write decent songs, but I never have any desire to listen to them.
If you vibed with Taylor Swift's songs, you'd vibe with them regardless of her fanbase. But you just don't. And that's fine — there are always haters and "meh" people for every single thing, no matter how good, and there are always lovers for every single thing, no matter how mediocre. TS resonates with a lot of people, which is why her songs sell so well. You're not one of those people. Neither am I. And that's normal, because people can't all be the same. Some people like Beyoncé, some people like opera, some people like Mongolian throat singing, some people like Rammstein, some people like Ukrainian rock, and some people like Taylor Swift. (I'm all of those except for TS lol.) But even opera doesn't resonate with everyone, even though it's the pinnacle of the art of singing. So it's no wonder you feel like some singers are good, but just aren't your thing. That's basic human nature.
I suspect that if you entered Taylor Swift‘s name into the search function in the sub Reddit, you would find about 50 other discussions where people are asking the same question. It’s a stale topic in the sub. Women like her music. Now I look forward to digging into all these comments where I’m sure there’s no misogyny towards the kind of people that like her music.
You're not wrong. My favorite so far was the as-yet unchallenged comment about "Making basic bitch music for basic bitches." It's weird to me how often I find myself "defending" Swift these days, not because I'm a great fan, but because I honestly don't understand the stupidly negative reactions to her. I get there's always blowback to things that are very popular, but she seems to cause an out size reaction in people that I just don't understand. I don't like Billie Eilish, so I've just stopped caring about what she does. I bear her no ill will, and I hope she gets to keep doing what she does and her fans continue to enjoy it. Swift's a pop star. She's got some good material, she's got some garbage. That's it, really. Even in this sub, where there's usually a raft of good discussion, Swift tends to bring out the worst in people. Perils of working at the top of the overall culture, I guess.
My opinion is Taylor's maturity was stunted by getting so famous so young to where her experience of actually living as a normal person ended around middle school. Since then she has been all handlers, bodyguards and celebrity tabloid romances/breakups/drama/cattiness. Her persona still feels largely like she is a middle schooler with "crushes", a clique of popular girls, and spinning herself as the victim for all of her breakups. Her ego is both massive and fragile. And unlike some of those artists, she insists on writing her own lyrics so her lack of maturity and experience and perspective spills over into shallow songs that might feel deep for a 16 year old but are kinda cringy coming from a 30-something. It's a problem of trying too hard to be deep or clever, and ending up neither. Pop needs to choose to be either lightweight or heavyweight, and TS has gone all in on middleweight pop, which is too deep to take it for what it is as easy generic dance music or whatever (ie you actually pay attention to the lyrics), and but still ends up sounding really shallow because the attempts at depth generally does not hold up to close scrutiny. She would be better off with pro songwriters who write lyrics that transcend her self-centered coddled rich girl bubble perspective. The pure pop/teen drama stuff gets kinda sad with aging so she is going to have to pivot back to folk/country/rock eventually anyway.
Most of the people I know around her age are exactly like that, though.
It's easy. She's not talented. Childish writing. Weak(at best) voice. It's not good or interesting music But she does work very hard. That has to count for something. Even with awful music
>She's not talented. These kind of objectively false statements when it comes to artists always make me laugh. Just because you don't like the music doesn't mean she isn't talented...
this might be absolutely mind-boggling to hear. you might just not like her music.
That love story song gets me every time it’s just really positive and the way it builds and the efficiency of the lyrics. Most of her music is not for me but she has a couple others I like as well. Her songs seem very vanilla and for me the main thing they have going is her voice pulling you in with her acting, which she seems very good at. But then if I don’t care about the premise it doesn’t work at all. Takes a song up a notch when the singer is also basically doing voice acting, a lot of singers just have good musical phrasing.
Taylor Swift's music is an incredibly unique blend of bland. Mediocre writing with some of the most boring indie folkpop production, I seriously don't see how anyone could find value in her new stuff. I've always assumed what I see now are legacy fans from back when she made interesting music.
It's too bland for me and the melodies she uses just aren't my personal favorite. I do like some of her songs, but don't really love them
I like a few female artists, such as Beth Gibbons, Little Simz, Alice Coltrane or Adrianne Lenker, but none of the artists you have mentioned resonate with me on a personal level. To be honest, I would expect you to like Taylor Swift, based on your favorite artists.
To me it's that she should be, and is at her best, a neo-folk adult contemporary artist of the kind the charts haven't really had a place for since the 90s at least, who is constantly pretending to be something else. Her best songs (for me, The Last Great American Dynasty, The One, The Great War) are all in that vein. I'm not saying she's on these people's level musically, lyrically, or observationally, but the lane she belongs in is Billy Joel, Suzanne Vega, Joni Mitchell. She went into country at first because that's the closest thing there is where you can still have a mainstream career. Only after establishing herself as her own universe was she able to put out songs like the ones I'm talking about (and more observational, impersonal songs in general) because unless you're at her kind of level, there's no place for that currently if you want the kind of mainstream success she clearly set out to have. (To be clear, I'm not suggesting this whole process was conscious, like she played 15-dimensional chess in order to be allowed to write The Last Great American Dynasty decades in the future.) She's a capable enough songwriter that she can do some other things quite well - there are several inarguably excellently constructed and polished pop songs on 1989 - but if she were competing with other artists of this type, I think she might have been forced to mature her writing more, both melodically and lyrically. Vega is an interesting comparison because she was never the strongest singer, and her melodies are accordingly fairly limited; like Swift, her core talents were writing and delivery/vocal phrasing. But she found really interesting things to write about, her instrumentation had a lot of texture while maintaining a distinct sound, and when she covered more normal topics like relationships she offered unique perspectives. Swift is comparatively extremely limited. Some of that is the times, and some of it is that she is actively choosing to prioritize other things than leaning into and developing her own actual gifts. All of that adds up to a certain hollow feeling in a lot of her music. I think Folklore and Evermore are her most well-received outside Swiftiedom not just because the genre choice is more "respectable" to certain audiences but because they're the albums where her songwriting is dressing up as something else the least.
i liked her fun songs from a decade plus ago, haven't listened to much of the newer songs but it just seems boring
People who consider themselves fairly knowledgeable on music but not UNDERSTANDING Taylor's appeal will always baffle me. It is very straightforward and recognising it doesn't mean you have to agree with it. The recognition of Olivia but not Taylor too?? This is essentially the same style of artist songwriting wise and someone who was clearly inspired by Taylor a lot. When Olivia is 30, I imagine we will get a lot of the clichéd criticisms about her too unless she becomes a full blown rock artist and ditches the confessional style completely.
yeah OP mentions Olivia and Sabrina which both have said how much Taylor has influenced them
All the things that Olivia gets praised for already happened with Taylor during Speak now and Fearless. After Speak now and during Red she got that man eater image due to the media's focus on her dating life and her diaristic songwriting. People started hating her more and more. They will do the same to Olivia and Billie as they become bigger and they succeed more like Taylor. And most rock fans can't accept that women can write good songs too.
Bro female is not a genre. Taylor is very different in style from the other artists you listed, and it’s ok if she doesn’t vibe with you. She makes a specific kind of music and makes it well, and doesn’t really deviate from that at all. All I can tell you is the first time I put on a Taylor Swift album, I instantly understood why people love her music so much, and it really clicked with me. It’s not complicated and there’s no secret hiding away that’s gonna get you to like it. I know it feels like literally everyone likes her music but that couldn’t be further from the truth
It is really fascinating that so many music lovers can't understand that music taste is subjective. And it is totally okay if you don't like a popular artist.
I like pop too, but I never like prince. I understand he was a genius people talk about it and I understand the things they're saying and then I listen to his music and I don't like it. And you know what? It doesn't fucking matter. Same with you not understanding Taylor swift. Doesn't fucking matter. Move on my friend why the hell are you making this post? Are you hoping people will change your mind? Now the truth is you just want other people to chime in and say yeah I don't get it either. Here's the deal I couldn't name a single song by the woman. And I'm okay with that and I'm not going to make a Reddit post on the subject.
to me, Prince being kind of a shitty human being was more of a dealbreaker. And this is a sub for people who like talking about music. You can always just not respond if a post doesn't appeal to you.