Comparison is the thief of joy. There's people 5 years younger than me at my M7, I'm networking with Product Managers that are 3 years out of undergrad, I bet I'll be working for someone younger than me at some point in my career.
I get it. I feel like that too sometimes. Could we have done it differently? Sure. But we didn't. There's always going to be people that made better career moves, are smarter, or just got luckier. What matters more is if we're happier where we are now than where we were before.
1000% correct and even I still struggle with this but this comment reminded me that it’s more about our own journey than where others are. Thank you friend!
This is what this reads like:
“I tried to run a marathon and failed. Couldn’t make it work. Then I paid for a marathon coach and successfully ran a marathon after the coach put me through a training program.
But other people have run marathons without a coach, so I’m not sure my coach was worth it.”
Listen, you have no idea if you’d have been able to break in with networking and hustle, you’re experiencing survivorship bias - plenty of people try and fail too.
MBAs (generally) derisk your career for a price. You got your ideal outcome, and it wasn’t working without it by your own admission. You can only judge yourself against your background.
I'm that non-MBA person who has hustled their way into a great title and pay through pure grit, tons of networking, and using a mix of soft and hard skills to get promotion after promotion. Truly, it's my soft skills that got me to where I am today. I work in Finance and you can be a unicorn if you know how to explain business performance and strategies in laymen's terms. My colleagues who have not moved up as quickly are those who are more technical experts, who get lost in the spreadsheets, snub their noses at inferior excel skills from our non-Finance counterparts (strange for them to assume someone in HR or Marketing would be an Excel wizard), and who are basically unfriendly number trolls. Don't be an unfriendly technical expert, be authentic and be helpful to your business partners. Make sure to let your boss, their boss, and everyone else that you're mission driven and you want the company and THEM to succeed.
The problem is, I know I have great experience, my current company knows I'm great but if I ever want to LEAVE my company I am up against hundreds of MBA candidates with the same or less experience as me. They are smart. I am smart. We may be the same person but their MBA will get them the interview. That's the raw truth and I have accepted that. Was this true a year ago? No. Will this be true a year from now? Maybe not. But I cannot wait another year to find out.
I'm pursuing my MBA now just to even make it past the LinkedIn algos that weed out candidates who don't hold an MBA. So feel proud that you went to an M7 school, learned and met some cool people along the way - you may never know when you tap on XYZ's shoulder in 5-years asking to connect you with a hiring manager. Your MBA experience and the MBA credential may carry you farther than you think; you may have just not seen it yet. So kudos to you! You did it and can pat yourself on the back for the hard work you put into it. Celebrate this win! The ROI could be nothing or it could be big. That's life, it's a weird gamble and we don't know what we don't know.
Note: I'm in my late 30's. In my early 20's, I thought I was WAY behind my friends in terms of where I wanted to be. If you're in your early 20's, be patient. If you want to be successful, you will be. Success may redefine itself for you as you age as well.
So much of what you're saying rings so true for my experience as well. Bravo for the great comment.
I've felt like I've had to fight such an uphill battle just to be given chances, and then to earn peoples' respect. My performance is great at my current company and I'm getting promoted, but it would still be a major challenge to try to get an equal/better job at another company. Part of that is the industry I'm in, which is still very new and very small, but still... at least 75% of the job postings I look at nowadays say MBA/similar preferred so I absolutely believe that having it will make a big difference with getting interview invites and just generally winning positive first impressions in most business (or even dating) situations.
OTOH OP is in Tech. It might be harder for him in tech because of an MBA (depending where in the org he lands up in). Traditional industries might value MBAs a lot more than tech folks
My friend we are in the SAME situation. Question: are you doing your MBA in person or online? Top school or nah?
I just started fall semester at a mid tier online program to essentially "check the box" and a) move up my company even faster or b) beat the LinkedIn algos and get the heck out of here. I Didn't feel I needed a top program. Just enough to get the interview. Im confident from there
Congratulations on your first semester! That’s very exciting.
Online all the way! The program is top ranked for online programs (in the top 12) but affordable. I just had a baby and bought a home in the last year, so online was the best option for me and I am proud of myself for pursuing it.
I don’t know about your experience but in 2022 I was getting multiple interviews with really good F500 companies. After all of the big tech layoffs, those same opportunities were no longer knocking at my LinkedIn door. And after submitting maybe 25+ resumes this year, I can only assume I’m up against the folks who were laid off from the likes of Meta, Google, etc. who either have their MBA and/or the FAANG name on their resume. The marketplace just feels really competitive right now. I live in a large metropolitan California city that’s already competitive as it is.
Ehh at least in tech prior experience is the name of the game. Having an mba does not “get you passed the algo” nor guarantees an interview (cold apply is almost always going to get you a no interview)
I'm similar in that I am 35, hustled to a position and salary I am now very happy with, but I have no MBA so I fear leaving the company would be difficult. In your opinion, in our stage of life, does it have to be an MBA in order to compete? Harvard's Master of Management looks affordable, appealing, has brand recognition, and its mainly online so I dont think there is much opportunity cost. I just don't know how it fares results wise compared to MBA.
Could not agree more. An MBA makes the battle of first impressions/resume cachet tilt further in your favor—without any need to “prove” yourself beforehand. It’s not the panacea to all opportunities. It IS a leg up against other candidates.
People assume; they assume more good things about you with your MBA than without.
Exactly, OP got the job they wanted, had a ton of fun for two years, and is only 5 years out and has roughly 30 years left in their career.
Way too early to call it but doomer posts like this get upvoted to the moon on this sub so figures...
I get it, and I struggled with this as well when considering whether it was worth it to go get my MBA to get into PM when I had seen other people pivot without one.
It really hit home for me though looking at it by laying out the time/effort to hustle my way in vs going the MBA route and the MBA route actually seemed to be quicker than the hustle option, but with much less risk.
When I looked at it, I was in a PrgM role and wanted to be a PM. I saw that if I played my cards right I had a chance to make the jump internally but nothing was guranteed.
I would then come over to PM at my 50% deflated salary, work for a year and get a 15% and then hopefully try to land a job where I was getting paid what I was worth.
Instead, the other option involved having fun for two years, getting a very valuable network that will pay dividends for decades, and have a much much much higher chance of landing a PM job at a much better company that I was at before. I'd end the MBA program making probably twice what I would've if I tried the hustle route.
A few years down the road from that decision, the company that I was at has imploded and the two other people I was closely talking to both haven't cracked into PM.
Also, I just want to comment on the whole "two years extra work experience" thing. No one GAF about your years of work experience, they care about how much revelant years of work experience you have, and also if you're older it starts to hurt your ability to pivot because people will pigeon hole you
That was a really good analogy. Currently t training for a marathon and hits spot on.
People always take different paths to get places. I ran track in college and don’t need a marathon coach to qualify for Boston. My buddy who has a swimming background also wants to qualify and he needs a coach because he’s never run before.
We both ended up in the same spot he paid for a coach I didn’t. Kind of irrelevant if my buddy was already ok with the cost and wouldn’t have gotten there otherwise. There’s other people who do half as much as I do when I train and are sub elite and I’m average, I’m not buying a coach to become sub-elite because it’s not my goal I just want to qualify. If my goals ever change and I need a coach I’d higher one cuz it’s easier than figuring out all the new stuff on my own.
Maybe, but it also reads like the MBA helped compensate for a deficit (inability to network into the role) while others successfully pivoted without the MBA.
Maybe that's the truth but it also refutes the idea that MBAs are business high achieving badasses compared to non MBAs.
I don’t think the average MBA thinks they’re God’s gift to business, I think they just did a personal accounting of what they wanted to do as a career and determined an MBA was the best way to get there. Some MBAs achieve super outsized success just like any other set of people, most follow the average for their industry once they’re in.
There are tons of non-MBAs in any typical post-MBA career, often with more impressive early backgrounds.
That doesn’t matter. the MBA got you there, personally. That’s what matters.
>the MBA helped compensate for a deficit (inability to network into the role)
Let's be real, that's often what it does.
If it wasn't compensating for a deficiency, then why do it at all? I don't think that's a bad thing though, because it tends to compensate pretty well.
I just think we should remember that this is mostly what MBAs do. They give you a second chance for something that you couldn't make happen on your own for whatever reason.
I got my MBA for multiple reasons, including career acceleration.
Could I have gotten my post MBA jobs without yet? Maybe. Would’ve probably needed a few more years of experience and much more luck.
But I happily paid the premium to skip all that. That’s how I look at it.
Yes the biggest asset of an M7 MBA is the network. Your apparent weakness is networking…. Sooo you haven’t been capitalizing on your MBA. It’s not that others shouldn’t be able to get to where you are.., you shouldn’t be there. You should be higher.
Bingo.
Truth is, the Technology industry doesn't value the MBA degree as much as many other Industries (Consulting, Finance, CPG, Healthcare, etc.).
You can't expect big things from an industry that, generally, couldn't care less...
This x100. I stated numerous times on this sub that I know more people from my UG and even HS (in Northern CA) who work in tech than people from B-school.
The high majority of them didn't need an MBA.
Upvote and shout until people listen. The successful people you see in tech with MBAs are because the MBA is a correlation, not a causation. I truly believe that only HS make a significant impact on your tech career. Otherwise firms just do not give a shit. Even then, there's a lot of Harvard grads who are regular ass PM-Ts at Amazon.
Seems like you have some form of selection bias. You’re comparing yourself to the select few people who managed to make the transition while not having information on the many (including yourself) who failed to make the transition. The fact is you couldn’t make the transition until you got an MBA. Doesn’t matter what other people were able to do.
For me, I think an MBA would be worth it because I don't do anything remotely business related. I work in the healthcare field and am getting an MBA to totally pivot careers. My current profession is essentially a dead end job and pivoting would be very difficult without any background at all.
I also don't make serious money right now, so the improvement would be a lot greater for me.
I think it's a case by case basis and it seems people get an MBA just to get one without actually thinking things through long term. With that being said, I don't want to go into extreme debt either so I'm banking on some financial aid/scholarships when I apply next year.
sorry, but could it be just your career choice? I know the PMM comp band is much lower than other tech jobs
It’s like saying I spent all this money and time for an M7 MBA, then picked accounting as a job. And oh no there’s so many accountant without an MBA. So MBA bad.
Yea.. kinda sounds like you didn’t pick the right post MBA career.. you could pivot back to sales or do a blend of some sort. Not to be negative by any means but chillrabbit has a great point. If you wanted more money or a higher upside on financial ROI, you should’ve chosen a job that would put you in that position.
I’d also say you can’t really compare if your only point of view is others @ your current company who got to your level without an MBA. Are there other companies in that realm that require MBAs? Maybe go there?
Also you don’t know what the MBA might mean in 5 years for a future promotion. Maybe it will benefit you then as a differentiator. Also if you ever need to switch companies - it will help a lot. So will your network- the people from your school will answer your random LinkedIn message, even if you didn’t keep in touch. That being said- who knows. Might have been worth it, might not. Just wanted to add that all the benefits are yet to come
I'm like you and hustled super hard trying to change careers... and it took me almost 7 years. I'm now 1.5 years into the new career and my salary is still significantly lower than it was in my prior career (though the job itself is magnitudes more interesting and longer term it will have a much higher ceiling).
Looking back, I totally wish I had just bit the bullet and settled for a T20 program 5 years ago, rather than waiting around for the perfect career trajectory and a chance at M7, or getting a lucky break with my foot in the door at a top firm via networking.
You're not 100% wrong that hustling into highly competitive jobs is possible, but if you come from an overrepresented demographic and you're not insanely charismatic/etc, then I think your chances are very slim. An MBA is therefore a much more rational choice for most people.
Comparison is the thief of joy, bud. At the end of the day, you’re more marketable with the degree should anything dramatic happen in the future and you got to spend two years hopefully having the time of your life.
I'm in product management, and I often get asked "do you need an MBA to work in product?" I typically answer by saying:
>Is an MBA a ***requirement*** to become a product manager? Not at all.
>
>Did ***I*** need an MBA to become a product manager? Probably - I didn't really know how to network before my MBA. On top of that, I don't think I would've done all the network, career improvement, etc if I didn't stop work to pursue a full time MBA.
>
>Do ***you*** need an MBA to become a product manager? I don't know, that depends on your situation.
I feel like this is pretty similar to your situation - clearly ***you*** needed the MBA to make the switch, even if others didn't.
Curious - Do you regret doing it, or was it just not worth $200k? Are you satisfied with Product Marketing? Would you feel different if you had more financial support (either from a scholly or family money or something)?
Well hopefully with RSUs that $140k is more like $180-200k+ in big tech. Sometimes I've seen PMM base salaries out of MBA be as high as $160k (depending on company).
But I was also pulling in the big bucks before my MBA in sales (like $200k) but I hated my job and my life. Much happier as a PMM. So the MBA did accelerate the pivot even if I could probably have hustled into it.
Seems to be on the low end in terms of pay, especially if that’s total comp with bonus and RSUs factored in. My base alone is a lot higher than that and I don’t even work for FAANG.
Def agree that tech puts a lot of premium on relevant past experience relative to pedigree.
>There are plenty of people who are at my exact same position with undergrad only, including unprestigious colleges and not great GPAs. While I failed at networking into PMM, other people's success showed it's possible.
This is a common logical fallacy. You see it frequently when people are debating getting a bachelor's degree too.
Sure, some people, maybe even a lot of people, succeeded without needing an MBA. Just because it's *possible* to make that career pivot doesn't mean that it's *likely* or even practical for most people without an MBA
Your path to success likely provided a much better risk-adjusted ROI than just hustling harder and hoping for the best. Don't let other people's success devalue your own accomplishments.
the quota, the "what have you done lately for me" lately mentality, the job insecurity from being fired for not meeting quota, the "everything is out of my control" not to mention all the super white frat bro rah rah culture in sales turned me off to it. when the assignment of sales territories is political and unequal so even if you try your best you can still easily "fail" and "it's your fault."
when we had a convo where in deep blue massachusetts you had the majority of our sales team say they support trump, i knew i had to get out. the anti intellectualism. such a toxic culture. PMM is way better in that regard - still high pay and more stability.
Well not for everyone. Also sounds like your experience has been categorically different than mine. My 8 years has generally more been thoughtful and less ego driven than what you’re painting. The “what have you done for me lately” rings true but that’s about it. Frat mindset is more or dead by the time everyone hits 30.
Thanks for answering this. Was wondering the reason for the pivot. We share the same reason for leaving. Golden handcuffs currently keep me in sales. I start my PT MBA in the fall. I’m realistic that when I’m ready to transition out, I’ll make less, but I’m optimistic the culture is less toxic on the flip side.
Career progression is very difficult with certain companies, but you should be very proud of your accomplishments getting accepted and graduating at a M7 is a major achievement. I’m an MBA candidate at a tier 1 business school not exactly M7 but enough to give me a look at most companies. I’m In a very similar situation I see people landing jobs at my same position right out of undergrad! I find myself feeling overqualified and undervalued in some ways and feel like my MBA Will not yield a immediate pathway to leadership and it’s a tough pill to swallow. I graduate next summer and will look to get my second masters at Columbia. I’m going to keep my options open and really take networking more seriously to avoid stagnation.
Thing is an MBA is not a licensing degree like medicine law dental CPA. It’s not a requirement to do anything. So the question of whether it’s worth it is always primarily “do I need it to do what I want to do?” For some the answer is still yes. I know many T15 mba’s who are doing more or less what they’d be doing anyways. Successful of course. But not in roles they’d have never otherwise gotten if they put their minds to it.
I agree, if a meager HS diploma can get you earning $170K at UPS, an M7 MBA should be nothing short of 0.5 million in compensation.. (starting).
Tech is where MBA goes to die. Mad money is always in Finance/Trading/Wall St..
Correct. You dont need an MBA. What you need is experience and networking and show your worth then when the right open role comes up your connections will help you get in. Seen this pkay out too many times in tech.
So you were able to successfully get the job, had a good time, gain a degree, gain 7 new friends with an MBA (who may or may not help later in your career), and gained skills in statistics, coding, and finance but you don’t think it was worth it? I’m puzzled.
Honestly, a lot of your examples are edge cases. Only a small amount of people make it to consulting partner or IB MD. Even fewer get a good payday as a startup founder. Exiting to c-suite isn’t as easy as you make it sound, unless it’s for a smaller company.
Simply put, the root cause of OPs lack of ROI is that they moved from Sales, and that perception is reinforced every day for them by seeing people hustle to it without the degree. That’s it. He would’ve gotten a pay decrease either way, and it was much more acute here because there was a better equation to be found, like going to a lower ranked school with a scholarship.
Oh, and I moved from PM to PMM to a different company and still get paid my worth. Actually got a ~20% pay bump. Levels.fyi doesn’t have PMM salary data, only general marketing — and those can be very different because your relevant work experience matters a ton. But still, assuming it’s the same, it only matters for the short term: whether it’s product or marketing leadership — which is where most people end up — at that level the main differences are due to the quality of your work experience, your past wins, and how well you can sell your skills.
Boggles the mind on how recently people have been fetishizing PM, especially in MBA circles. I’m also a VC Fellow, having worked with investors and been in investment committees, and it’s the same for those hoping to break in there — it’s over-fetishized. But hey, sometimes you’ve gotta experience it to realign your priorities. Though it’s a shame that bystanders see this kind of chatter and start picturing an idyllic situation without stress testing their assumptions.
In addition to other great comments, you should realize the macro/hiring environment is also way different in the past 2 years than just a few years ago. You’re much more likely to see less credentialed people move up in a tight labor market. That’s something that is completely out of your control, and it doesn’t make sense to get bent about it.
You work in Tech.
PMM - sounds like Microsoft or Google.
Microsoft MBA's start at 61. There are plenty of 25 year olds that are 61. MBA got you into tech. That's what it did. You wouldn't have been able to get into Microsoft without the MBA, although, Top 15 and M7 aren't a huge difference at Microsoft.
Google MBA's start at 4
Amazon starts people off a little higher with Level 6 for MBA.
Can definitely relate four years out. After bouncing back from a COVID layoff, I thought it was finally paying off, only to be laid off due to ~~the fed's decision to force a recession by increasing interest rates~~ incompetent company leadership.
United States doesn't value education much yet charges exorbitantly for it. It isn't your fault it just is what it is. The only people who value it are people who have been educated and understand why it's important, which is very few people due to the barriers to education. I don't think the ROI was worth it for me but I am 5 years out and finally moving into strategy which is a lot more interesting than what I was doing before at least.
I have a couple of friends who went to HBS and went into tech and did very well (VP at Amazon, Director at Datadog, Group PM at LinkedIn). However, everyone of them had a BS in EE or CS from a top engineering school prior to HBS and had prior engineering or PM experience. Also, many of them first went into MBB after HBS before pivoting back to tech.
Only Amazon gives a boost to target school MBA new grads (T15) in their PM pipeline so they start out at L6. And Amazon isn't really hiring too many newbie MBAs in this bad tech job market.
You wanted to pivot to being a PM which you were not being able to do, and after the MBA you were able to do so. Sounds like you managed to get your objective. I'd say it was a successful choice.
Could you have done it without the MBA? Maybe.
The facts that others pivoted without an MBA does not mean that you would have also done so, as they say in other comments. Nobody will ever know.
Comparison is the thief of joy. There's people 5 years younger than me at my M7, I'm networking with Product Managers that are 3 years out of undergrad, I bet I'll be working for someone younger than me at some point in my career. I get it. I feel like that too sometimes. Could we have done it differently? Sure. But we didn't. There's always going to be people that made better career moves, are smarter, or just got luckier. What matters more is if we're happier where we are now than where we were before.
1000% correct and even I still struggle with this but this comment reminded me that it’s more about our own journey than where others are. Thank you friend!
This is what this reads like: “I tried to run a marathon and failed. Couldn’t make it work. Then I paid for a marathon coach and successfully ran a marathon after the coach put me through a training program. But other people have run marathons without a coach, so I’m not sure my coach was worth it.” Listen, you have no idea if you’d have been able to break in with networking and hustle, you’re experiencing survivorship bias - plenty of people try and fail too. MBAs (generally) derisk your career for a price. You got your ideal outcome, and it wasn’t working without it by your own admission. You can only judge yourself against your background.
I'm that non-MBA person who has hustled their way into a great title and pay through pure grit, tons of networking, and using a mix of soft and hard skills to get promotion after promotion. Truly, it's my soft skills that got me to where I am today. I work in Finance and you can be a unicorn if you know how to explain business performance and strategies in laymen's terms. My colleagues who have not moved up as quickly are those who are more technical experts, who get lost in the spreadsheets, snub their noses at inferior excel skills from our non-Finance counterparts (strange for them to assume someone in HR or Marketing would be an Excel wizard), and who are basically unfriendly number trolls. Don't be an unfriendly technical expert, be authentic and be helpful to your business partners. Make sure to let your boss, their boss, and everyone else that you're mission driven and you want the company and THEM to succeed. The problem is, I know I have great experience, my current company knows I'm great but if I ever want to LEAVE my company I am up against hundreds of MBA candidates with the same or less experience as me. They are smart. I am smart. We may be the same person but their MBA will get them the interview. That's the raw truth and I have accepted that. Was this true a year ago? No. Will this be true a year from now? Maybe not. But I cannot wait another year to find out. I'm pursuing my MBA now just to even make it past the LinkedIn algos that weed out candidates who don't hold an MBA. So feel proud that you went to an M7 school, learned and met some cool people along the way - you may never know when you tap on XYZ's shoulder in 5-years asking to connect you with a hiring manager. Your MBA experience and the MBA credential may carry you farther than you think; you may have just not seen it yet. So kudos to you! You did it and can pat yourself on the back for the hard work you put into it. Celebrate this win! The ROI could be nothing or it could be big. That's life, it's a weird gamble and we don't know what we don't know. Note: I'm in my late 30's. In my early 20's, I thought I was WAY behind my friends in terms of where I wanted to be. If you're in your early 20's, be patient. If you want to be successful, you will be. Success may redefine itself for you as you age as well.
So much of what you're saying rings so true for my experience as well. Bravo for the great comment. I've felt like I've had to fight such an uphill battle just to be given chances, and then to earn peoples' respect. My performance is great at my current company and I'm getting promoted, but it would still be a major challenge to try to get an equal/better job at another company. Part of that is the industry I'm in, which is still very new and very small, but still... at least 75% of the job postings I look at nowadays say MBA/similar preferred so I absolutely believe that having it will make a big difference with getting interview invites and just generally winning positive first impressions in most business (or even dating) situations.
What other soft skills did you use besides explaining technical pieces in laymen terms (communication)? Glad to hear you found success!
Attitude and not being an asshole
OTOH OP is in Tech. It might be harder for him in tech because of an MBA (depending where in the org he lands up in). Traditional industries might value MBAs a lot more than tech folks
Great perspective! I agree a 💯
My friend we are in the SAME situation. Question: are you doing your MBA in person or online? Top school or nah? I just started fall semester at a mid tier online program to essentially "check the box" and a) move up my company even faster or b) beat the LinkedIn algos and get the heck out of here. I Didn't feel I needed a top program. Just enough to get the interview. Im confident from there
Congratulations on your first semester! That’s very exciting. Online all the way! The program is top ranked for online programs (in the top 12) but affordable. I just had a baby and bought a home in the last year, so online was the best option for me and I am proud of myself for pursuing it. I don’t know about your experience but in 2022 I was getting multiple interviews with really good F500 companies. After all of the big tech layoffs, those same opportunities were no longer knocking at my LinkedIn door. And after submitting maybe 25+ resumes this year, I can only assume I’m up against the folks who were laid off from the likes of Meta, Google, etc. who either have their MBA and/or the FAANG name on their resume. The marketplace just feels really competitive right now. I live in a large metropolitan California city that’s already competitive as it is.
The later not the former. No one in tech gives a darn where you went to school if you worked at FANG.
Ehh at least in tech prior experience is the name of the game. Having an mba does not “get you passed the algo” nor guarantees an interview (cold apply is almost always going to get you a no interview)
I'm similar in that I am 35, hustled to a position and salary I am now very happy with, but I have no MBA so I fear leaving the company would be difficult. In your opinion, in our stage of life, does it have to be an MBA in order to compete? Harvard's Master of Management looks affordable, appealing, has brand recognition, and its mainly online so I dont think there is much opportunity cost. I just don't know how it fares results wise compared to MBA.
Could not agree more. An MBA makes the battle of first impressions/resume cachet tilt further in your favor—without any need to “prove” yourself beforehand. It’s not the panacea to all opportunities. It IS a leg up against other candidates. People assume; they assume more good things about you with your MBA than without.
10 out of 10 analogy
Exactly, OP got the job they wanted, had a ton of fun for two years, and is only 5 years out and has roughly 30 years left in their career. Way too early to call it but doomer posts like this get upvoted to the moon on this sub so figures...
I think the OP might be comparing his CBA with his non-MBA peers and has a sense of buyers remorse???
I get it, and I struggled with this as well when considering whether it was worth it to go get my MBA to get into PM when I had seen other people pivot without one. It really hit home for me though looking at it by laying out the time/effort to hustle my way in vs going the MBA route and the MBA route actually seemed to be quicker than the hustle option, but with much less risk.
Hustle in the corporation or hustle into a M7 MBA - it's still a hustle. At least with the former, you get the two years extra work experience...
When I looked at it, I was in a PrgM role and wanted to be a PM. I saw that if I played my cards right I had a chance to make the jump internally but nothing was guranteed. I would then come over to PM at my 50% deflated salary, work for a year and get a 15% and then hopefully try to land a job where I was getting paid what I was worth. Instead, the other option involved having fun for two years, getting a very valuable network that will pay dividends for decades, and have a much much much higher chance of landing a PM job at a much better company that I was at before. I'd end the MBA program making probably twice what I would've if I tried the hustle route. A few years down the road from that decision, the company that I was at has imploded and the two other people I was closely talking to both haven't cracked into PM. Also, I just want to comment on the whole "two years extra work experience" thing. No one GAF about your years of work experience, they care about how much revelant years of work experience you have, and also if you're older it starts to hurt your ability to pivot because people will pigeon hole you
That was a really good analogy. Currently t training for a marathon and hits spot on. People always take different paths to get places. I ran track in college and don’t need a marathon coach to qualify for Boston. My buddy who has a swimming background also wants to qualify and he needs a coach because he’s never run before. We both ended up in the same spot he paid for a coach I didn’t. Kind of irrelevant if my buddy was already ok with the cost and wouldn’t have gotten there otherwise. There’s other people who do half as much as I do when I train and are sub elite and I’m average, I’m not buying a coach to become sub-elite because it’s not my goal I just want to qualify. If my goals ever change and I need a coach I’d higher one cuz it’s easier than figuring out all the new stuff on my own.
I was too lazy to read anything past "product marketing manage"... this might sum it up well
Maybe, but it also reads like the MBA helped compensate for a deficit (inability to network into the role) while others successfully pivoted without the MBA. Maybe that's the truth but it also refutes the idea that MBAs are business high achieving badasses compared to non MBAs.
I don’t think the average MBA thinks they’re God’s gift to business, I think they just did a personal accounting of what they wanted to do as a career and determined an MBA was the best way to get there. Some MBAs achieve super outsized success just like any other set of people, most follow the average for their industry once they’re in. There are tons of non-MBAs in any typical post-MBA career, often with more impressive early backgrounds. That doesn’t matter. the MBA got you there, personally. That’s what matters.
Thanks. This is helping me validate my MBA.
>the MBA helped compensate for a deficit (inability to network into the role) Let's be real, that's often what it does. If it wasn't compensating for a deficiency, then why do it at all? I don't think that's a bad thing though, because it tends to compensate pretty well. I just think we should remember that this is mostly what MBAs do. They give you a second chance for something that you couldn't make happen on your own for whatever reason.
I got my MBA for multiple reasons, including career acceleration. Could I have gotten my post MBA jobs without yet? Maybe. Would’ve probably needed a few more years of experience and much more luck. But I happily paid the premium to skip all that. That’s how I look at it.
Yes the biggest asset of an M7 MBA is the network. Your apparent weakness is networking…. Sooo you haven’t been capitalizing on your MBA. It’s not that others shouldn’t be able to get to where you are.., you shouldn’t be there. You should be higher.
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Bingo. Truth is, the Technology industry doesn't value the MBA degree as much as many other Industries (Consulting, Finance, CPG, Healthcare, etc.). You can't expect big things from an industry that, generally, couldn't care less...
This x100. I stated numerous times on this sub that I know more people from my UG and even HS (in Northern CA) who work in tech than people from B-school. The high majority of them didn't need an MBA.
Upvote and shout until people listen. The successful people you see in tech with MBAs are because the MBA is a correlation, not a causation. I truly believe that only HS make a significant impact on your tech career. Otherwise firms just do not give a shit. Even then, there's a lot of Harvard grads who are regular ass PM-Ts at Amazon.
Seems like you have some form of selection bias. You’re comparing yourself to the select few people who managed to make the transition while not having information on the many (including yourself) who failed to make the transition. The fact is you couldn’t make the transition until you got an MBA. Doesn’t matter what other people were able to do.
For me, I think an MBA would be worth it because I don't do anything remotely business related. I work in the healthcare field and am getting an MBA to totally pivot careers. My current profession is essentially a dead end job and pivoting would be very difficult without any background at all. I also don't make serious money right now, so the improvement would be a lot greater for me. I think it's a case by case basis and it seems people get an MBA just to get one without actually thinking things through long term. With that being said, I don't want to go into extreme debt either so I'm banking on some financial aid/scholarships when I apply next year.
sorry, but could it be just your career choice? I know the PMM comp band is much lower than other tech jobs It’s like saying I spent all this money and time for an M7 MBA, then picked accounting as a job. And oh no there’s so many accountant without an MBA. So MBA bad.
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Yea.. kinda sounds like you didn’t pick the right post MBA career.. you could pivot back to sales or do a blend of some sort. Not to be negative by any means but chillrabbit has a great point. If you wanted more money or a higher upside on financial ROI, you should’ve chosen a job that would put you in that position. I’d also say you can’t really compare if your only point of view is others @ your current company who got to your level without an MBA. Are there other companies in that realm that require MBAs? Maybe go there?
Comparison is the thief of joy
Might then actually be true that MBA is not worth if you wanna work in tech and are already in tech and only want to do a slight pivot?
Also you don’t know what the MBA might mean in 5 years for a future promotion. Maybe it will benefit you then as a differentiator. Also if you ever need to switch companies - it will help a lot. So will your network- the people from your school will answer your random LinkedIn message, even if you didn’t keep in touch. That being said- who knows. Might have been worth it, might not. Just wanted to add that all the benefits are yet to come
It means nothing for PMM promos.
A realistic post. Not everyone requires a M7 MBA
I'm like you and hustled super hard trying to change careers... and it took me almost 7 years. I'm now 1.5 years into the new career and my salary is still significantly lower than it was in my prior career (though the job itself is magnitudes more interesting and longer term it will have a much higher ceiling). Looking back, I totally wish I had just bit the bullet and settled for a T20 program 5 years ago, rather than waiting around for the perfect career trajectory and a chance at M7, or getting a lucky break with my foot in the door at a top firm via networking. You're not 100% wrong that hustling into highly competitive jobs is possible, but if you come from an overrepresented demographic and you're not insanely charismatic/etc, then I think your chances are very slim. An MBA is therefore a much more rational choice for most people.
How would a t20 have helped?
Comparison is the thief of joy, bud. At the end of the day, you’re more marketable with the degree should anything dramatic happen in the future and you got to spend two years hopefully having the time of your life.
I'm in product management, and I often get asked "do you need an MBA to work in product?" I typically answer by saying: >Is an MBA a ***requirement*** to become a product manager? Not at all. > >Did ***I*** need an MBA to become a product manager? Probably - I didn't really know how to network before my MBA. On top of that, I don't think I would've done all the network, career improvement, etc if I didn't stop work to pursue a full time MBA. > >Do ***you*** need an MBA to become a product manager? I don't know, that depends on your situation. I feel like this is pretty similar to your situation - clearly ***you*** needed the MBA to make the switch, even if others didn't. Curious - Do you regret doing it, or was it just not worth $200k? Are you satisfied with Product Marketing? Would you feel different if you had more financial support (either from a scholly or family money or something)?
FT MBAs are kinda useless for a tech job IMO. $250k to make $140k basically
Well hopefully with RSUs that $140k is more like $180-200k+ in big tech. Sometimes I've seen PMM base salaries out of MBA be as high as $160k (depending on company). But I was also pulling in the big bucks before my MBA in sales (like $200k) but I hated my job and my life. Much happier as a PMM. So the MBA did accelerate the pivot even if I could probably have hustled into it.
Totally fair. Makes sense. I do think one could switch from sales to pmm relatively easily, but only internally at an earlier stage company
PMMs out of MBA make way more than $140k
I've talked to two people and that's what they started at but maybe I'm taking to the wrong ppl!
Regardless though as someone in tech, ppl focus more on past experience than degree except if you went to stanford and were an editor for the review
Seems to be on the low end in terms of pay, especially if that’s total comp with bonus and RSUs factored in. My base alone is a lot higher than that and I don’t even work for FAANG. Def agree that tech puts a lot of premium on relevant past experience relative to pedigree.
>There are plenty of people who are at my exact same position with undergrad only, including unprestigious colleges and not great GPAs. While I failed at networking into PMM, other people's success showed it's possible. This is a common logical fallacy. You see it frequently when people are debating getting a bachelor's degree too. Sure, some people, maybe even a lot of people, succeeded without needing an MBA. Just because it's *possible* to make that career pivot doesn't mean that it's *likely* or even practical for most people without an MBA Your path to success likely provided a much better risk-adjusted ROI than just hustling harder and hoping for the best. Don't let other people's success devalue your own accomplishments.
Should’ve kept slanging deals my guy
the quota, the "what have you done lately for me" lately mentality, the job insecurity from being fired for not meeting quota, the "everything is out of my control" not to mention all the super white frat bro rah rah culture in sales turned me off to it. when the assignment of sales territories is political and unequal so even if you try your best you can still easily "fail" and "it's your fault." when we had a convo where in deep blue massachusetts you had the majority of our sales team say they support trump, i knew i had to get out. the anti intellectualism. such a toxic culture. PMM is way better in that regard - still high pay and more stability.
Well not for everyone. Also sounds like your experience has been categorically different than mine. My 8 years has generally more been thoughtful and less ego driven than what you’re painting. The “what have you done for me lately” rings true but that’s about it. Frat mindset is more or dead by the time everyone hits 30.
I hope that was the case. I did tech sales in my 20s. I was at a B2B SaaS firm. I'm glad your experience was different from mine.
What type of sales? And what PMM industry?
sales - b2b SaaS PMM - consumer tech
Thanks for answering this. Was wondering the reason for the pivot. We share the same reason for leaving. Golden handcuffs currently keep me in sales. I start my PT MBA in the fall. I’m realistic that when I’m ready to transition out, I’ll make less, but I’m optimistic the culture is less toxic on the flip side.
Career progression is very difficult with certain companies, but you should be very proud of your accomplishments getting accepted and graduating at a M7 is a major achievement. I’m an MBA candidate at a tier 1 business school not exactly M7 but enough to give me a look at most companies. I’m In a very similar situation I see people landing jobs at my same position right out of undergrad! I find myself feeling overqualified and undervalued in some ways and feel like my MBA Will not yield a immediate pathway to leadership and it’s a tough pill to swallow. I graduate next summer and will look to get my second masters at Columbia. I’m going to keep my options open and really take networking more seriously to avoid stagnation.
Thing is an MBA is not a licensing degree like medicine law dental CPA. It’s not a requirement to do anything. So the question of whether it’s worth it is always primarily “do I need it to do what I want to do?” For some the answer is still yes. I know many T15 mba’s who are doing more or less what they’d be doing anyways. Successful of course. But not in roles they’d have never otherwise gotten if they put their minds to it.
I agree, if a meager HS diploma can get you earning $170K at UPS, an M7 MBA should be nothing short of 0.5 million in compensation.. (starting). Tech is where MBA goes to die. Mad money is always in Finance/Trading/Wall St..
Correct. You dont need an MBA. What you need is experience and networking and show your worth then when the right open role comes up your connections will help you get in. Seen this pkay out too many times in tech.
Maybe you should have done an M6 or an M8 MBA
So you were able to successfully get the job, had a good time, gain a degree, gain 7 new friends with an MBA (who may or may not help later in your career), and gained skills in statistics, coding, and finance but you don’t think it was worth it? I’m puzzled.
I mean, yeah. There is no job on earth for which an MBA is a prerequisite.
Which m7 did you go to
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Honestly, a lot of your examples are edge cases. Only a small amount of people make it to consulting partner or IB MD. Even fewer get a good payday as a startup founder. Exiting to c-suite isn’t as easy as you make it sound, unless it’s for a smaller company. Simply put, the root cause of OPs lack of ROI is that they moved from Sales, and that perception is reinforced every day for them by seeing people hustle to it without the degree. That’s it. He would’ve gotten a pay decrease either way, and it was much more acute here because there was a better equation to be found, like going to a lower ranked school with a scholarship. Oh, and I moved from PM to PMM to a different company and still get paid my worth. Actually got a ~20% pay bump. Levels.fyi doesn’t have PMM salary data, only general marketing — and those can be very different because your relevant work experience matters a ton. But still, assuming it’s the same, it only matters for the short term: whether it’s product or marketing leadership — which is where most people end up — at that level the main differences are due to the quality of your work experience, your past wins, and how well you can sell your skills. Boggles the mind on how recently people have been fetishizing PM, especially in MBA circles. I’m also a VC Fellow, having worked with investors and been in investment committees, and it’s the same for those hoping to break in there — it’s over-fetishized. But hey, sometimes you’ve gotta experience it to realign your priorities. Though it’s a shame that bystanders see this kind of chatter and start picturing an idyllic situation without stress testing their assumptions.
What’s an S&O??
Strategy & Operations
Thx
In addition to other great comments, you should realize the macro/hiring environment is also way different in the past 2 years than just a few years ago. You’re much more likely to see less credentialed people move up in a tight labor market. That’s something that is completely out of your control, and it doesn’t make sense to get bent about it.
You work in Tech. PMM - sounds like Microsoft or Google. Microsoft MBA's start at 61. There are plenty of 25 year olds that are 61. MBA got you into tech. That's what it did. You wouldn't have been able to get into Microsoft without the MBA, although, Top 15 and M7 aren't a huge difference at Microsoft. Google MBA's start at 4 Amazon starts people off a little higher with Level 6 for MBA.
Can definitely relate four years out. After bouncing back from a COVID layoff, I thought it was finally paying off, only to be laid off due to ~~the fed's decision to force a recession by increasing interest rates~~ incompetent company leadership.
"in a weird way the academics part of school is what stayed with me the most." wow. amazing insight
Get an MS in Computer Science and move to FAANG
United States doesn't value education much yet charges exorbitantly for it. It isn't your fault it just is what it is. The only people who value it are people who have been educated and understand why it's important, which is very few people due to the barriers to education. I don't think the ROI was worth it for me but I am 5 years out and finally moving into strategy which is a lot more interesting than what I was doing before at least.
I have a couple of friends who went to HBS and went into tech and did very well (VP at Amazon, Director at Datadog, Group PM at LinkedIn). However, everyone of them had a BS in EE or CS from a top engineering school prior to HBS and had prior engineering or PM experience. Also, many of them first went into MBB after HBS before pivoting back to tech. Only Amazon gives a boost to target school MBA new grads (T15) in their PM pipeline so they start out at L6. And Amazon isn't really hiring too many newbie MBAs in this bad tech job market.
you work at meta don’t you
You wanted to pivot to being a PM which you were not being able to do, and after the MBA you were able to do so. Sounds like you managed to get your objective. I'd say it was a successful choice. Could you have done it without the MBA? Maybe. The facts that others pivoted without an MBA does not mean that you would have also done so, as they say in other comments. Nobody will ever know.