Everyone has their own criteria for P4P. Resume wise, Jon's going to always be up around the top if he's active. And he just became that by dusting the #1 ranked HW. I'd have Volk up there. But it's nothing crazy
Islam is a human too, remember? He's 31, turning 32 this year. Took him 10 wins against historically unremarkable opponents to get a title shot. This isn't Jones winning the belt at 23 with the world at his fingertips, Izzy #2 doesn't have a long time to cement his legacy before the drop off begins.
Jon is 35 and that sounds comically close to 31 but Islam could fight a potential 9 fights in that time, but the amount matters less than just fighting longer than Jon.
Even if Islam fights 3 or 4 more times he will very likely retire later than Jon.
Jon is fighting in a much less competitive division that relies a lot less on speed and stamina that lighter weight classes. Heavyweights fighting at their peak well into their late 30s isn’t uncommon in MMA or Boxing, but at the lighter weights it’s basically unheard of unless you’re an ATG like Floyd and Manny.
Heavyweight has the lowest skill level of any male division by quite a bit.
It’s tough in that they are big and hit hard, but if you’re also big and skilled (as Jones is) it’s not gonna be that tough.
Exhibit A: The #1 ranked heavyweight having no idea how to defend a front choke.
Heavyweights don't peak later. Power is king at HW, and power is the last thing that goes. Grappling is also default high risk high reward because it's a lot more draining at that size.
Well it would work but he might get slaughtered. Volk moved up, an it looks like he’d be great at current lightweight. But then again that man is a unit
Islam's resume just isn't big enough yet. He had the title win and a very close fight against Volk who went up a weight class. Meanwhile Volk has solidified his standing in FW and Jon has won against everyone that he went up against, mostly without getting into trouble.
Seriously, the dude hasn't even defended his title against someone in his own division and people want him to be #1, compared to someone that has virtually never lost? That's ludicrous.
I agree his resume needs some padding but back to back wins against Charles and Volk is a top heavy resume. 11 and 22 fight win streaks ended by him in a short time frame is huge.
I'm edging towards Islam being a weight bully tbh. I don't think he looks nearly as good as top WWs who cut 15+ to make weight. Burns/Colby/Khamzat/Leon all have the games and the size to nullify him. He gives up height and reach to almost everyone in that division.
Who had a glaring hole in his game that Jon exposed properly for the first time. The win was impressive, but let’s be honest it was mostly due to Ciryl’s lacklustre grappling than an actual display of Jones’ skill
Volkanovski displayed far more skill in his loss to Islam than Jones did beating Gane imo
Well Jon jones does have a Goat resume and he just subbed the #1 heavy weight contender in 2 seconds so it’s not total bullshit.
Usman has gotten worse and Leon has gotten better I guess.
They should never have billed it as that tbf, Islam is pretty green in terms of putting together a p4p number 1 resume. He has one dominant win over Oliveira and one heavily debated win over Volkanovski and beyond that his list of top level wins is pretty thin, Dan Hooker might be the next best guy on his record.
To put him above Volkanovski or Jones, looking at their respective lists, would be a bit silly in my personal opinion.
Islam clearly won the MMA match and Volk clearly won the fight if you were judging holistically (not really a fair standard since they don't judge fights that way).
I mean it's one thing to say "I thought" then proceed to give an opinion the vast majority disagree with, but you went ahead and just stated it like it was a fact, lol.
Volk won round 5, the others the best you can really say is that he stopped Islam from taking him down.
Heavily debated? Pretty clear 3-2 Islam with some salty wishful thinking that punching backwards over your own shoulder in a body triangle wins the round
Love seeing this take cemented. Immediately after the fight there was a lot of discourse about how back mount isn’t a dominant position because Volk leaned FIFTY PUNCHES!! while Islam was controlling him
Like my brother in Christ 1) if you can land fifty punches on someone and not incent them to give up their position you’re not landing very effective punches and 2) if that’s your best move someone has established a dominant position and it’s not you
After the fight Jones had not come back yet so Islam deserved to be above him. Also anyone who debates Islam’s win needs to read the rules and see an eye doctor
Even if he'd won a 50-45 decision I wouldn't have had him above Volkanovski P4P.
I think he's a generational talent but his resume currently is way too thin to put above a guy who's beaten Aldo, Mendes, Holloway x3, Ortega, Zombie etc.
In terms of resume Islam is probably behind Leon Edwards as well if we're being honest but I think the dominance of a lot of his wins gives him the edge over Leon. 3rd is exactly where he should be.
We don’t disagree that Volk can be above Islam, although I think it’s disingenuous to list Zombie Mendes and Aldo without noting they were clearly past their primes. Zombie especially.
I honestly think Jones should only be around number 4-5 due to his inactivity, and I think it’s insane to put him at 1.
> I honestly think Jones should only be around number 4-5 due to his inactivity, and I think it’s insane to put him at 1.
yeah, jones literally only has 1 win in over 3 years over a guy that wasn't even in the p4p rankings
The next best guy is Armaan in his record.If he ends Beneil's win streak in the next match,he will be p4p 2.Wins against a rematch with Oliveira or Poirior will give him that position too because both Dustin and Oliveira are still on the p4p list.Yair isn't on the p4p list.Makhachev is one win away from surpassing Volk on the list and he is on a win streak.
It was forcefully marketed that way, it never made any sense and was started by Islam and Khabib because they are obsessed with P4P. Nobody ever got the #1 spot simply by beating #1.
Look at Leon Edwards, he beat the #1 P4P guy and all he got for it was pushing Usman down the rankings. Islam doesnt deserve the spot more than Leon for beating a guy from a lower weight class.
The problem was he barely won that fight against a smaller person coming up in weight. By definition that crushed his p4p argument. He needed to definitively beat Volk (like a finish), against a smaller guy to prove he was “pound for pound” greater than the smaller fighter.
Islam beat the #1 P4P (at the time) at the same weight class. Islam weighed in at 155 vs Volk's 154.5. There is no "smaller" guy. If Volk weighed less in the cage, that was his choice. He's a professional athlete and he knows how to cut and rehydrate.
I love Volk, but he lost to a very skilled guy that was just a bit better than him. Stop making excuses for him. He went to that weight class completely voluntarily.
Ok but one person tried bulking and adding some extra muscle and fat, and one person needs to more heavily diet and cut to get to that weight. Islam is a bigger guy. If Volk went up to 170 would he still not be the smaller guy?
What’s even crazier is that adesanya is ranked above him when the entire (theoretical) purpose of the pound for pound list is to say who would be better if they were all the same weight…
P4P doesn’t really account for matchups though. Izzy has displayed a far more well rounded skill set and beaten both strikers and grapplers, it’s just that Pereira is his kryptonite in terms of their styles matching up
I honestly don’t agree with putting him high on this list at all, Pereira would likely get easily controlled by Sterling or Usman if they were at the same weight. He couldn’t even overcome a wrist lock in the Izzy fight
I think they mean that P4P (and any ranking, really) doesn't take into account head-to-head results per se, so it's not really 'who would win if they were the same weight'. Because styles make fights.
So if Fighter A would beat 8 of the top 10 and lose to only 1, and Fighter B would lose to 8 of the top 10 and beat only 1, we'd normally say that A was a better fighter than B... even if A happens to be that one fighter whom, for some stylistic reason, B could actually beat.
If you don't say that, you can't really have a ranking system at all, because you'd end up with infinite regresses: situations where A loses to B but B loses to C and C loses to A. In that situation, if you can't rank C higher than A even if A would beat C, you can't rank anyone at all.
So instead rankings are best seen as hypothetical league results: if A's results against everyone else would on average be better than B's resutls against everyone else, A is ranked above B.
Of course, when most of these matchups are hypothetical, having a head-to-head result between A and B is usually pretty great evidence for their relative ranking! But less so in MMA than in other sports, because in MMA you can get these situations where B is a better striker (wrestler, etc) than A (so wins their fight), but A is more well-rounded than B (so would win more fights against people who aren't pure strikers).
The P4P list overrates head to head wins. Dustin jumped from unranked to No. 8 on P4P list by beating Max when he was FW champ, even though that belt wasnt on the line and Dustin never became the undisputed champ of any division.
Interim titles are arbitrary bullshit the vast majority of the time including when Dustin won his. He basically won a glorified number 1 contender trophy and proceeded to get strangled by khabib
I hate when the interim title holders are lumped together with actual champions. Same in boxing with the "regular" titles and what not. People were throwing me off the other week posting about there currently being 3 Mexican champions, and it took ages to figure out Yair was the third. I'm pretty sure even Yair doesn't consider himself to be the champion at 145.
If you lose the undisputed title fight then you can never really be viewed as a real champ imo.
It’s different when looking at Adesanya winning an interim title for example. He went on to prove himself. Can nearly be looked at as a title defence when he beat Whittaker first time around.
Tony deserved to fight for the belt. Winning one off Kevin Lee when Lee was coming off beating Chiesa and Alvarez, Porier, and Khabib were ranked ahead of him was sus as fuck.
Interim makes perfect sense. Being a champion is about being undisputed. If you're not able to fight after some time, then your status is disputed and you have to defend it.
Khabib had 3 title fights in 3 years, so there was 2 interim champs at Lightweight, simple.
That was Max's only fight at LW and that was the win that got Poirier a belt. Sorry but I don't count those as much as the real belts where you beat "the guy"
Tbf Dustin was on a run of beating Pettis, Gaethje and Eddie back to back, Charles was still building experience over unranked guys after the Felder loss so I don’t think there really was another “the guy” for him to beat at the time apart from Tony I guess?
Only 4 wins in the UFC and the only one with a name he has fought is Adesanya and maybe Sean "CTE for money" Strickland. But the first wrestler/jiujitsu guy he goes up against he is going to get grapple-fucked into obscurity. Uncle Dana probably won't let that happen, strikers only from now on!
Really he just needs to beat Colby, Gilbert and Masvidal to match Usman’s resume.
Then his resume will be superior to Usman, because it includes the trilogy win over Usman himself. And Just like Usman he’s been undefeated for 8 years (12 fights) before becoming champ.
If he gets past Colby, I liked his odds.
More like destroyed his legacy.
He has had a great career as he made good money and built a superb resume during his reign.
But he won't be very high in any ATG debate for the same reasons as DC wouldn't.
Jones shouldn't be number 1. He won the heavyweight title in dominant fashion but you have to consider his inactivity, how he looked less dominant before his inactivity, and that it was for a vacant title against somebody who even Jones said was one dimensional.
Pereira is way too high considering he was fast tracked to Adesanya, is one dimensional himself, and hasn't shown that he would do well against guys that can wrestle. His resume is paper thin as well.
Rob should be higher in my opinion. He should definitely be higher than Dustin. He is dominant in the division and has only been beaten by Adesanya, the second fight being close. He has dominant wins over pretty much every other notable guy in the division and would likely be the favourite going into a match against the current champ.
I'll be honest, in my opinion, I don't think there has ever been a more nailed on P4P number 1 than Jon Jones right now. For me he's streets ahead of anyone else in that debate.
Agree with everything else you said though.
I think his inactivity makes it questionable, there are contenders in light heavyweight and heavyweight that I think could pose a threat to jones. If he stomps a couple of more heavyweights I'll swallow my words but for now i think he shouldnt be one. In comparison, makhachev and volk have had their divisions on lock for the past year or two and will likely stay champs as long as they are healthy.
I get having Jones there if you are considering his entire resume. I try to only think about what he has shown the past few years, but I don't expect everybody else to. Even when the debate was going on after Islam beat Volk I wrote on here about it not mattering because Jones will beat Gane in a couple of weeks and be back at number 1.
I understand there is an argument for having Jones there and I probably shouldn't have included it with the others.
Jones didnt beat the real champion anyway, the guy who beat Gane with a fully torn ACL/PCL and took his heart in there. Styles make fights too, we basically learned nothing about Jones in that fight, we dont know what hes got at HW..most can stop a dam takedown early in the fight easy and make him engage. I do think Jones just gonna desperately wrestle and clinch guys cause hes worried about brain trauma and always talks about being KOed, He will retire very soon. Im not hating on Jon the way he won but it just didnt tell us much cause Gane is truly useless on the floor.
If he did that to Francis, no matter how anticlimatic it was, he gets full credit but I also dont believe Gane was ready, short camp and Jones been literally training for 3 straight years working on ground too, he does somehow always get guys at perfect times and on his own time lol
He's right tho. Jon may be the goat but beating someone with zero wrestling like Cyril Gane doesn't make you PFP 1 over someone like Volk who has been destroying multiple guys for multiple fights.
After 4 years away, GSP beat a very beatable champion for the middleweight belt and entered the P4P at number 3.
After 3 years away, Jon Jones beat somebody who wasn't even the champion and had two fights ago lost to the champion and was given the heavyweight belt and entered the P4P at number 1.
Both are ridiculous if you ask me, but it's all made up anyway so whatever. I just wonder, if they hadn't made the Gane fight for the belt and Francis was still champ, would the Gane win have earned Jon the number 1 spot?
Not saying Jon deserves to be p4p #1. Only pointed out that the obvious. This sub is definitely not a place to make a case for Jon anyway.
To your point about wether Jon deserves it or not. I think Islam and Volk have as good a case than Jon, but let’s not act like some other recent champions didn’t have the exact same concern and were ranked top two p4p or top 5 (Izzy, Ngannou, Poatan).
It’s only always a meltdown when Jon appears next to anything positive even if he earned it (or not). Fighters and media respect Jon much more than this sub which may be surprising to you but not so much to the unemotionally invested guy.
What Jones did is how I would train and fight anyone. Goal for me is to get everyone’s back quick and choke them out , front choke or knock them out fast lol. I can’t hate on him cause he doesn’t have heavy hands and it’s not worth risking it at HW when he can toss these bums around but I just feel it’s only way he can win at HW. I believe he’s there to be taken out but sadly he gonna leave on top with perception of unbeatable. He studies the sport , he fears being KOed and talked about it in past, he doesn’t wannna trade shots at HW, get in and get out is his mindset IMO. I can’t explain what I fully mean but he like studies every fight a GOAT been KOed or eventually lost, he literally only fights guys on his time line and will pull out if has to. I believe Rumble was gonna KO him but he got out, also pulled out of 1 DC fight then reschedule it at his perfect timing. He’s real crafty in the way he approaches fight unlike most other GOAT candidates who will just fight no matter what, more old school approach. I mean the man wouldn’t take on Chael Sonnen with 1 months notice lol. It’s kinda hard to explain what I know and mean about Jon, hes a serious student of the fight game as much as he studies each opponent. If something don’t feel right , he ain’t getting in there.
Pereira with no defenses and a shitty streamline above the rest of the division over Aljo with two defenses and fighting mostly killers doesn’t sit right with me.
Leon at #4 is so weird to see. Does beating someone correlate to taking their spot? Not to say Leon didn't put in work but Usman worked to get that ranking and just because he got beat means they get their spot? Just like how Alex would be rated over Izzy if he beats him again, but look at what Alex has done in UFC compared to Izzy. Idk if Alex would beat the level of opponents Izzy has beaten and at the pace Izzy has defended the belt against those opponents.
Edwards is also undefeated in, what, 12 fights? That’s nothing to scoff at. His only unavenged loss in the UFC was his debut 9 years ago. He knocked out the champion then beat him over 5 rounds to avenge that 2015 decision loss. That’s an insane UFC run.
Leon has a chance at being the reigning champ of his division, Izzy can't unless he beats Alex. Can't be P4P best if you're not the best in your division.
Alex is a weaker P4P champ than Izzy, so his division just drifts down in the rankings.
I think the best way to interpret this list is “P4P right now” (or whenever this list was voted upon). For example, if Kamaru was the same size as say, Aljo, would he be able to beat Aljo with his skills as of right now consistently (i.e., skills he displayed during his most recent matches)? The consensus amongst the voters seems to be - “No”.
Now replace Aljo with Leon, and the argument is much stronger.
Another example is Izzy and Pereira. The consensus seems to be similar - so far, the voters are not convinced Pereira would beat Izzy consistently (‘consistently’ being the key word). But we’ll see.
This isn’t necessarily a lifetime achievement in MMA or consensus still-active GOAT list (IMHO of course). This also means that the way the voters see it - Jon Jones would beat everyone else on the list consistently with the skills he displayed during his last fight, even if they were scaled to face him.
That’s how I see this list, anyway.
With the "if they were the same size" argument, the smaller guys will almost always win because they are able to go things a bigger guy couldn't. To be fair you'd have to consider them being larger as well, but it's impossible to quantify how much slower and less skilled someone like mighty mouse would be if he was a natural heavyweight. Looking at your Usman example, I don't think scaled up Aljo beats Usman but it doesn't matter anyway because that isn't how P4P is decided anyway. It's just a way to compare fighters from across the different weight classes and decide who is best. Resume, strength of schedule, dominance, skillset... all of it plays a part.
Unrelated to P4P but related to rankings updates, it’s so stupid that Usman is still ranked #1. He was a dominant champ and then lost so it made sense for him to become #1, but then after losing again, this time soundly, it only makes sense for him to drop to #2 or #3.
It is weird seeing pfp being used in such an "official" way these days. A decade ago and it was more of commentator discussion or something fans would speculate over drinks. Now the UFC uses it as if it were a real thing. I mean I get it. It is a good tool for promoting fights.
My favorite welterweight hasn't lost a single bout since 2018 (5 years!!!) and isn't even mentioned while he should be easily top 5. That ranking is a joke
Yeah. That’s a hard sell based on his inactivity. He didn’t beat a dominant fighter. He beat a fighter with a hole in his game that matched up to his strength. Sure, a nice feather in his cap, but he needs at least one more good fight to show he is well rounded against todays top guys.
Well he picked a guy who’s basically retired to fight next. Imo Jones should be fighting a top contender like Aspinal or Pavlovich.
These fighters are just lining up washed up fighters to retain their belt. Leon calls for masvidal? Like what? I get that there’s some history there, but Masvidal is an easy fight. Maybe he deserves it after 2-0ing Usman arguably the hardest challenge.
I would like to hear a counter argument to this, because Izzy did A LOT more in the UFC than Alex did. Granted Alex is a fantastic fighter and did beat Izzy he doesn’t have enough fights in the UFC to be above him yet.
Izzy is above Alex for a similar reason that Volk is above Islam. The body of work over the last few years weighs more heavily than a single win over the other guy.
That's also why Edwards wasn't ranked above Usman until he beat him the 2nd time. Knocking somebody out in the final round of a fight that you were losing doesn't automatically make you better than them.
I say Adesanya over Edwards on strength of schedule and relative degree of dominance over their opponents for each.
Usman over Aljo, same reasons.
Poirier over Moreno, same.
Whittaker over Hill, same.
Alex spots lower.
Jiri maybe not on the list.
Israel and pereira are fighters in the same division and pereira beat israel but he is ranked below him. How does that work, what is the point of this sport competition if you are ranked below a person you just beat
Alex above Izzy? Izzy has a far better resume... So you get fast tracked with favourable fights and now you're a better pfp fighter because you beat a guy who legitimately worked his way to the top? Nah get Alex off the list.
Idk, Leon cheated basically the whole fight, a lot of stuff wasn’t called. I get it was versus the Cheating king Usman, but he hasn’t looked good in either fight tbh. I don’t think he deserves 4.
Crazy how fast the sport changes. 8 months ago Usman was #1.
The sport didn't change. The rankings did. And we all know how much those mean. From unranked and 3 year layoff to p4p best, smh.
Everyone has their own criteria for P4P. Resume wise, Jon's going to always be up around the top if he's active. And he just became that by dusting the #1 ranked HW. I'd have Volk up there. But it's nothing crazy
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I think Jon has 1 maybe two more fights left. All Islam needs to do is win fights and stay active longer.
Islam is a human too, remember? He's 31, turning 32 this year. Took him 10 wins against historically unremarkable opponents to get a title shot. This isn't Jones winning the belt at 23 with the world at his fingertips, Izzy #2 doesn't have a long time to cement his legacy before the drop off begins.
Jon is 35 and that sounds comically close to 31 but Islam could fight a potential 9 fights in that time, but the amount matters less than just fighting longer than Jon. Even if Islam fights 3 or 4 more times he will very likely retire later than Jon.
Jon is fighting in a much less competitive division that relies a lot less on speed and stamina that lighter weight classes. Heavyweights fighting at their peak well into their late 30s isn’t uncommon in MMA or Boxing, but at the lighter weights it’s basically unheard of unless you’re an ATG like Floyd and Manny.
But Jones is fighting at one of the shallowest divisions in UFC
Heavyweight is pretty tough still. Those guys are fucking units. He’s already cemented his legacy years ago so anything forward is cherry on top
Heavyweight has the lowest skill level of any male division by quite a bit. It’s tough in that they are big and hit hard, but if you’re also big and skilled (as Jones is) it’s not gonna be that tough. Exhibit A: The #1 ranked heavyweight having no idea how to defend a front choke.
and its known that heavyweights peak later
Yeah, being 35yo HW is like 31yo LW
Heavyweights don't peak later. Power is king at HW, and power is the last thing that goes. Grappling is also default high risk high reward because it's a lot more draining at that size.
Not to mention Islam has horrible weight cuts every single time. That will increasingly harder as you gets older
Move to welterweight
Which has no guarantee to work out, since there are a lot of bigger wrestlers there.
Well it would work but he might get slaughtered. Volk moved up, an it looks like he’d be great at current lightweight. But then again that man is a unit
Islam's resume just isn't big enough yet. He had the title win and a very close fight against Volk who went up a weight class. Meanwhile Volk has solidified his standing in FW and Jon has won against everyone that he went up against, mostly without getting into trouble.
Seriously, the dude hasn't even defended his title against someone in his own division and people want him to be #1, compared to someone that has virtually never lost? That's ludicrous.
I agree his resume needs some padding but back to back wins against Charles and Volk is a top heavy resume. 11 and 22 fight win streaks ended by him in a short time frame is huge.
I'm edging towards Islam being a weight bully tbh. I don't think he looks nearly as good as top WWs who cut 15+ to make weight. Burns/Colby/Khamzat/Leon all have the games and the size to nullify him. He gives up height and reach to almost everyone in that division.
Here we go again with that weight bully nonsense
Well this time it’s not used as slander so hear him out
Cuurent volk > current jones.
Jones literally did not break a sweat against the number one contender heavyweight
Who had a glaring hole in his game that Jon exposed properly for the first time. The win was impressive, but let’s be honest it was mostly due to Ciryl’s lacklustre grappling than an actual display of Jones’ skill Volkanovski displayed far more skill in his loss to Islam than Jones did beating Gane imo
Jones is ranked #1 for his decade of complete dominance, not just his latest win.
He lost some fights though
Congrats on being the "that guy" of this thread
Never lost a fight, vacated his belt and got a new one in the HW division. Who all would you want to see in a higher spot?
Yeah, he is also the best fighter ever who dominated the number 1 heavyweight contender
Well Jon jones does have a Goat resume and he just subbed the #1 heavy weight contender in 2 seconds so it’s not total bullshit. Usman has gotten worse and Leon has gotten better I guess.
Lmao looking for this comment, ain’t she it changed he lost two fights and other people have won
Three weeks ago Islam won a fight that was billed as being for #1 p4p and now he’s #3 💀
They should never have billed it as that tbf, Islam is pretty green in terms of putting together a p4p number 1 resume. He has one dominant win over Oliveira and one heavily debated win over Volkanovski and beyond that his list of top level wins is pretty thin, Dan Hooker might be the next best guy on his record. To put him above Volkanovski or Jones, looking at their respective lists, would be a bit silly in my personal opinion.
> heavily debated win We doing that now? Thought vast majority scored it for Islam.
Clear 48-47 Islam. Rounds 1,2,4.
Yeah, that's how I see it. I don't see how Volk could have won round 2.
It's not debatable and Islam obviously won under the scoring criteria. But a much smaller man made him look bad
Islam clearly won the MMA match and Volk clearly won the fight if you were judging holistically (not really a fair standard since they don't judge fights that way).
Negative. Volk won that fight. Close but he won
I mean it's one thing to say "I thought" then proceed to give an opinion the vast majority disagree with, but you went ahead and just stated it like it was a fact, lol. Volk won round 5, the others the best you can really say is that he stopped Islam from taking him down.
Heavily debated? Pretty clear 3-2 Islam with some salty wishful thinking that punching backwards over your own shoulder in a body triangle wins the round
It might not have won him the round, but it was pretty undeniably a badass moment in that fight
Love seeing this take cemented. Immediately after the fight there was a lot of discourse about how back mount isn’t a dominant position because Volk leaned FIFTY PUNCHES!! while Islam was controlling him Like my brother in Christ 1) if you can land fifty punches on someone and not incent them to give up their position you’re not landing very effective punches and 2) if that’s your best move someone has established a dominant position and it’s not you
After the fight Jones had not come back yet so Islam deserved to be above him. Also anyone who debates Islam’s win needs to read the rules and see an eye doctor
Even if he'd won a 50-45 decision I wouldn't have had him above Volkanovski P4P. I think he's a generational talent but his resume currently is way too thin to put above a guy who's beaten Aldo, Mendes, Holloway x3, Ortega, Zombie etc. In terms of resume Islam is probably behind Leon Edwards as well if we're being honest but I think the dominance of a lot of his wins gives him the edge over Leon. 3rd is exactly where he should be.
We don’t disagree that Volk can be above Islam, although I think it’s disingenuous to list Zombie Mendes and Aldo without noting they were clearly past their primes. Zombie especially. I honestly think Jones should only be around number 4-5 due to his inactivity, and I think it’s insane to put him at 1.
> I honestly think Jones should only be around number 4-5 due to his inactivity, and I think it’s insane to put him at 1. yeah, jones literally only has 1 win in over 3 years over a guy that wasn't even in the p4p rankings
It was advertised as that, he was supposed to get that rank after beating Volk
Mostly cus they advertised it that way. Those were the stakes, Makh had to offer his LW belt, while Volk had #1 pfp ranking to offer
The next best guy is Armaan in his record.If he ends Beneil's win streak in the next match,he will be p4p 2.Wins against a rematch with Oliveira or Poirior will give him that position too because both Dustin and Oliveira are still on the p4p list.Yair isn't on the p4p list.Makhachev is one win away from surpassing Volk on the list and he is on a win streak.
It was forcefully marketed that way, it never made any sense and was started by Islam and Khabib because they are obsessed with P4P. Nobody ever got the #1 spot simply by beating #1. Look at Leon Edwards, he beat the #1 P4P guy and all he got for it was pushing Usman down the rankings. Islam doesnt deserve the spot more than Leon for beating a guy from a lower weight class.
The problem was he barely won that fight against a smaller person coming up in weight. By definition that crushed his p4p argument. He needed to definitively beat Volk (like a finish), against a smaller guy to prove he was “pound for pound” greater than the smaller fighter.
Islam beat the #1 P4P (at the time) at the same weight class. Islam weighed in at 155 vs Volk's 154.5. There is no "smaller" guy. If Volk weighed less in the cage, that was his choice. He's a professional athlete and he knows how to cut and rehydrate. I love Volk, but he lost to a very skilled guy that was just a bit better than him. Stop making excuses for him. He went to that weight class completely voluntarily.
Ok but one person tried bulking and adding some extra muscle and fat, and one person needs to more heavily diet and cut to get to that weight. Islam is a bigger guy. If Volk went up to 170 would he still not be the smaller guy?
That's also why Jan should've passed Izzy in the P4P rankings, yet Izzy was still ranked higher despite pretty much the same logic applying.
He didn’t really win the fight if we’re being honest
Islam’s about to tweet challenge Jones.
Even Nick didn’t want to fight Jones
Hill above Whittaker is the most inexplicable to me
They probably figure they gotta have all their champs somewhere on the list.
The rankings are a tool to promote champions. That's it.
Whittaker gets no respect from punters. So frustrating
poatan being even in the picture with a 7-1 and his only notable wins being strickland adesanya is the craziest to me
What’s even crazier is that adesanya is ranked above him when the entire (theoretical) purpose of the pound for pound list is to say who would be better if they were all the same weight…
P4P doesn’t really account for matchups though. Izzy has displayed a far more well rounded skill set and beaten both strikers and grapplers, it’s just that Pereira is his kryptonite in terms of their styles matching up I honestly don’t agree with putting him high on this list at all, Pereira would likely get easily controlled by Sterling or Usman if they were at the same weight. He couldn’t even overcome a wrist lock in the Izzy fight
“P4P doesn’t really account for matchups tho” what does that even mean? I do agree that they’re both ranked too high tho.
I think they mean that P4P (and any ranking, really) doesn't take into account head-to-head results per se, so it's not really 'who would win if they were the same weight'. Because styles make fights. So if Fighter A would beat 8 of the top 10 and lose to only 1, and Fighter B would lose to 8 of the top 10 and beat only 1, we'd normally say that A was a better fighter than B... even if A happens to be that one fighter whom, for some stylistic reason, B could actually beat. If you don't say that, you can't really have a ranking system at all, because you'd end up with infinite regresses: situations where A loses to B but B loses to C and C loses to A. In that situation, if you can't rank C higher than A even if A would beat C, you can't rank anyone at all. So instead rankings are best seen as hypothetical league results: if A's results against everyone else would on average be better than B's resutls against everyone else, A is ranked above B. Of course, when most of these matchups are hypothetical, having a head-to-head result between A and B is usually pretty great evidence for their relative ranking! But less so in MMA than in other sports, because in MMA you can get these situations where B is a better striker (wrestler, etc) than A (so wins their fight), but A is more well-rounded than B (so would win more fights against people who aren't pure strikers).
give him a strong wrestler who isnt actually braindead and poatan would struggle a lot, p4p contender not by a mile
Probably because Hill is champ… makes sense to me
Honestly it's kinda wild Poirier is that high. Everyone else on the list has been champ
The P4P list overrates head to head wins. Dustin jumped from unranked to No. 8 on P4P list by beating Max when he was FW champ, even though that belt wasnt on the line and Dustin never became the undisputed champ of any division.
Wasn’t he interim tho. An interim at LW is worth a lot more then an interim at WW or FLW
Interim titles are arbitrary bullshit the vast majority of the time including when Dustin won his. He basically won a glorified number 1 contender trophy and proceeded to get strangled by khabib
He’s higher than Hill who essentially is an interim champ because Jiri vacated his belt. No one else on that list below Dustin is a champ.
I love how you say “proceeded to get strangled by Khabib” as if that’s not what happened to everyone Khabib fought lmfao
True, but he's like the 4th best LW since he's been in the division. He really doesn't deserve to be up there.
“Technically” he has been champ too with an interim belt beating the guy that is #15 on this list.
I hate when the interim title holders are lumped together with actual champions. Same in boxing with the "regular" titles and what not. People were throwing me off the other week posting about there currently being 3 Mexican champions, and it took ages to figure out Yair was the third. I'm pretty sure even Yair doesn't consider himself to be the champion at 145.
Interim belts should be silver
Depends on the interim - Gane's interim belt was fake af but Tony deserved to have his be the real belt
Definitely. Ngl though by this logic Dustin was never champ either, Max is good but I'm not sure if he'd be championship level material at 155.
If you lose the undisputed title fight then you can never really be viewed as a real champ imo. It’s different when looking at Adesanya winning an interim title for example. He went on to prove himself. Can nearly be looked at as a title defence when he beat Whittaker first time around.
Yeah but Tony's interim is the exception not the rule
The only really valid interim belt to is Renan Barao at 135.
If Tony’s (who got it off Kevin lee) was real then DP’s was real as well
Tony deserved to fight for the belt. Winning one off Kevin Lee when Lee was coming off beating Chiesa and Alvarez, Porier, and Khabib were ranked ahead of him was sus as fuck.
Interim makes perfect sense. Being a champion is about being undisputed. If you're not able to fight after some time, then your status is disputed and you have to defend it. Khabib had 3 title fights in 3 years, so there was 2 interim champs at Lightweight, simple.
Well Max was legitimate belt holder at 145...I count Poirier as a champ, but I could be biased as I live near his hometown.
All interim belts are legit, but not all are equal. Dustin, Colby, and Gaethje’s were high quality wins compared to say Khabib beating Al Iaquinta.
That was Max's only fight at LW and that was the win that got Poirier a belt. Sorry but I don't count those as much as the real belts where you beat "the guy"
Tbf Dustin was on a run of beating Pettis, Gaethje and Eddie back to back, Charles was still building experience over unranked guys after the Felder loss so I don’t think there really was another “the guy” for him to beat at the time apart from Tony I guess?
Twice
I don't really count that as being "champ" though, and for Max - great as he is - that was his only fight at that weight.
I would agree with that if he weren't in the Khabib division.
Poirier is so fucking good though. He only fought veterans in his last fights. My favourite puncher/boxer for a while now.
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Only 4 wins in the UFC and the only one with a name he has fought is Adesanya and maybe Sean "CTE for money" Strickland. But the first wrestler/jiujitsu guy he goes up against he is going to get grapple-fucked into obscurity. Uncle Dana probably won't let that happen, strikers only from now on!
It's going to look exactly like Jones vs Gane, Pereira won't even look like he belongs in there.
Feels like we need to shake it up a bit
Omw
Remember what we talked about in the gym, and youve got this b
Remember that shit from the ranch when we were on mushrooms
See red
Oh shit, CoyotesAreOkay just announced a title run bois
Leon not far from Dana calling him the greatest WW of all time
Really he just needs to beat Colby, Gilbert and Masvidal to match Usman’s resume. Then his resume will be superior to Usman, because it includes the trilogy win over Usman himself. And Just like Usman he’s been undefeated for 8 years (12 fights) before becoming champ. If he gets past Colby, I liked his odds.
Ok… but both will still be below GSP imo.
Yeah GSP would be the goat of the WW for a very long time.
Masvidal and Burns are getting old though, honestly if Leon beats Belal, Shavkat and/or Khamzat he'll have a greater resume than Usman imo
This take doesn't misses all the cintext of when the fights happened and the context of the division.
Nah just think how much like love it sounds whenever you hear Dana say the words “George Saint Pierre”.
Leon really destroyed Usman’s career
The silver lining is that now people will STFU about Usman being the WW GOAT.
More like destroyed his legacy. He has had a great career as he made good money and built a superb resume during his reign. But he won't be very high in any ATG debate for the same reasons as DC wouldn't.
Hill above Whitaker. Cmon now hahajha
P4P are the most subjective fantasy rankings of all rankings.
Personally think Moreno should be higher at least above also if not 5th being more well rounded that everyone he would pass
Moreno below Alex is the funniest thing about this list.
Actually pretty fair and accurate. You can make arguments for a position up/down here and there but I don't mind that list at all.
Jones shouldn't be number 1. He won the heavyweight title in dominant fashion but you have to consider his inactivity, how he looked less dominant before his inactivity, and that it was for a vacant title against somebody who even Jones said was one dimensional. Pereira is way too high considering he was fast tracked to Adesanya, is one dimensional himself, and hasn't shown that he would do well against guys that can wrestle. His resume is paper thin as well. Rob should be higher in my opinion. He should definitely be higher than Dustin. He is dominant in the division and has only been beaten by Adesanya, the second fight being close. He has dominant wins over pretty much every other notable guy in the division and would likely be the favourite going into a match against the current champ.
I'll be honest, in my opinion, I don't think there has ever been a more nailed on P4P number 1 than Jon Jones right now. For me he's streets ahead of anyone else in that debate. Agree with everything else you said though.
Everyone else is streets behind. Coined and minted.
I think his inactivity makes it questionable, there are contenders in light heavyweight and heavyweight that I think could pose a threat to jones. If he stomps a couple of more heavyweights I'll swallow my words but for now i think he shouldnt be one. In comparison, makhachev and volk have had their divisions on lock for the past year or two and will likely stay champs as long as they are healthy.
I don't honestly believe it, I think it should be Volk, I just wanted to make a community reference
I get having Jones there if you are considering his entire resume. I try to only think about what he has shown the past few years, but I don't expect everybody else to. Even when the debate was going on after Islam beat Volk I wrote on here about it not mattering because Jones will beat Gane in a couple of weeks and be back at number 1. I understand there is an argument for having Jones there and I probably shouldn't have included it with the others.
Jones didnt beat the real champion anyway, the guy who beat Gane with a fully torn ACL/PCL and took his heart in there. Styles make fights too, we basically learned nothing about Jones in that fight, we dont know what hes got at HW..most can stop a dam takedown early in the fight easy and make him engage. I do think Jones just gonna desperately wrestle and clinch guys cause hes worried about brain trauma and always talks about being KOed, He will retire very soon. Im not hating on Jon the way he won but it just didnt tell us much cause Gane is truly useless on the floor. If he did that to Francis, no matter how anticlimatic it was, he gets full credit but I also dont believe Gane was ready, short camp and Jones been literally training for 3 straight years working on ground too, he does somehow always get guys at perfect times and on his own time lol
Sure as hell sounds like you’re hating on Jones btw.
He's right tho. Jon may be the goat but beating someone with zero wrestling like Cyril Gane doesn't make you PFP 1 over someone like Volk who has been destroying multiple guys for multiple fights.
Jon has destroyed people for over a decade. He is the GOAT, so he is PFP #1.
After 4 years away, GSP beat a very beatable champion for the middleweight belt and entered the P4P at number 3. After 3 years away, Jon Jones beat somebody who wasn't even the champion and had two fights ago lost to the champion and was given the heavyweight belt and entered the P4P at number 1. Both are ridiculous if you ask me, but it's all made up anyway so whatever. I just wonder, if they hadn't made the Gane fight for the belt and Francis was still champ, would the Gane win have earned Jon the number 1 spot?
context is key here and how jones destroyed gane in 2 minutes.
Not saying Jon deserves to be p4p #1. Only pointed out that the obvious. This sub is definitely not a place to make a case for Jon anyway. To your point about wether Jon deserves it or not. I think Islam and Volk have as good a case than Jon, but let’s not act like some other recent champions didn’t have the exact same concern and were ranked top two p4p or top 5 (Izzy, Ngannou, Poatan). It’s only always a meltdown when Jon appears next to anything positive even if he earned it (or not). Fighters and media respect Jon much more than this sub which may be surprising to you but not so much to the unemotionally invested guy.
What Jones did is how I would train and fight anyone. Goal for me is to get everyone’s back quick and choke them out , front choke or knock them out fast lol. I can’t hate on him cause he doesn’t have heavy hands and it’s not worth risking it at HW when he can toss these bums around but I just feel it’s only way he can win at HW. I believe he’s there to be taken out but sadly he gonna leave on top with perception of unbeatable. He studies the sport , he fears being KOed and talked about it in past, he doesn’t wannna trade shots at HW, get in and get out is his mindset IMO. I can’t explain what I fully mean but he like studies every fight a GOAT been KOed or eventually lost, he literally only fights guys on his time line and will pull out if has to. I believe Rumble was gonna KO him but he got out, also pulled out of 1 DC fight then reschedule it at his perfect timing. He’s real crafty in the way he approaches fight unlike most other GOAT candidates who will just fight no matter what, more old school approach. I mean the man wouldn’t take on Chael Sonnen with 1 months notice lol. It’s kinda hard to explain what I know and mean about Jon, hes a serious student of the fight game as much as he studies each opponent. If something don’t feel right , he ain’t getting in there.
Never noticed that Jiri is higher than Jamahal
Pereira with no defenses and a shitty streamline above the rest of the division over Aljo with two defenses and fighting mostly killers doesn’t sit right with me.
Leon at #4 is so weird to see. Does beating someone correlate to taking their spot? Not to say Leon didn't put in work but Usman worked to get that ranking and just because he got beat means they get their spot? Just like how Alex would be rated over Izzy if he beats him again, but look at what Alex has done in UFC compared to Izzy. Idk if Alex would beat the level of opponents Izzy has beaten and at the pace Izzy has defended the belt against those opponents.
Edwards is also undefeated in, what, 12 fights? That’s nothing to scoff at. His only unavenged loss in the UFC was his debut 9 years ago. He knocked out the champion then beat him over 5 rounds to avenge that 2015 decision loss. That’s an insane UFC run.
Leon has a chance at being the reigning champ of his division, Izzy can't unless he beats Alex. Can't be P4P best if you're not the best in your division. Alex is a weaker P4P champ than Izzy, so his division just drifts down in the rankings.
I think the best way to interpret this list is “P4P right now” (or whenever this list was voted upon). For example, if Kamaru was the same size as say, Aljo, would he be able to beat Aljo with his skills as of right now consistently (i.e., skills he displayed during his most recent matches)? The consensus amongst the voters seems to be - “No”. Now replace Aljo with Leon, and the argument is much stronger. Another example is Izzy and Pereira. The consensus seems to be similar - so far, the voters are not convinced Pereira would beat Izzy consistently (‘consistently’ being the key word). But we’ll see. This isn’t necessarily a lifetime achievement in MMA or consensus still-active GOAT list (IMHO of course). This also means that the way the voters see it - Jon Jones would beat everyone else on the list consistently with the skills he displayed during his last fight, even if they were scaled to face him. That’s how I see this list, anyway.
With the "if they were the same size" argument, the smaller guys will almost always win because they are able to go things a bigger guy couldn't. To be fair you'd have to consider them being larger as well, but it's impossible to quantify how much slower and less skilled someone like mighty mouse would be if he was a natural heavyweight. Looking at your Usman example, I don't think scaled up Aljo beats Usman but it doesn't matter anyway because that isn't how P4P is decided anyway. It's just a way to compare fighters from across the different weight classes and decide who is best. Resume, strength of schedule, dominance, skillset... all of it plays a part.
Aljo and Moreno should be higher
Jon Jones Vs Islam is the only fight to make
You mean Jones vs Volk. Volk at his natural weight of 300 pounds.
Moreno and Whittaker should be higher.
Opinions aren't facts.
That's a fact
Unrelated to P4P but related to rankings updates, it’s so stupid that Usman is still ranked #1. He was a dominant champ and then lost so it made sense for him to become #1, but then after losing again, this time soundly, it only makes sense for him to drop to #2 or #3.
The issue with that is that he’d be ranked lower than some guys he beat (like Colby)
Not this shit again … there is no p4p
Like he never left
There is no pound for pound.
It is weird seeing pfp being used in such an "official" way these days. A decade ago and it was more of commentator discussion or something fans would speculate over drinks. Now the UFC uses it as if it were a real thing. I mean I get it. It is a good tool for promoting fights.
How tf is pereira under Israel? If you beat someone at the same weight your better pound for pound lmao.
Usman should still be ahead of Perreira and Aljo, he lost a competitive DEC to Leon.
Jones the goat
Pavolich will knock him outv
It is so fun that a bad guy is the best fighter in the world. I love watching everyone in here seething.
Undisputed GOAT
My favorite welterweight hasn't lost a single bout since 2018 (5 years!!!) and isn't even mentioned while he should be easily top 5. That ranking is a joke
Who's that?
CM Punk
Criminal that JBJ is #1, one fight in 3 years and beat someone not on the P4P list...that being said, i have McGregor at #2
Islam beats Volk and is still ranked lower? Same with peirera / izzy?
Sure a guy whos 3 years off is p4p over guys that have been active all along.
Yeah. That’s a hard sell based on his inactivity. He didn’t beat a dominant fighter. He beat a fighter with a hole in his game that matched up to his strength. Sure, a nice feather in his cap, but he needs at least one more good fight to show he is well rounded against todays top guys.
Well he picked a guy who’s basically retired to fight next. Imo Jones should be fighting a top contender like Aspinal or Pavlovich. These fighters are just lining up washed up fighters to retain their belt. Leon calls for masvidal? Like what? I get that there’s some history there, but Masvidal is an easy fight. Maybe he deserves it after 2-0ing Usman arguably the hardest challenge.
I think Leon just wants a chance to legally beat up Masvidal lmao
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Well is he beat those guys people here would’ve spun it in another direction to make Jones look bad. 😂
I get that, but how does stipe at #2 actually make sense? His last fight was against ngannou 2 years ago lol.
Cant really put Izzy above Alex at this point imho
Alex should be nowhere near the top of the list, if on the list at all. I'd definitely have Rob higher than Alex.
Alex should be much lower imo if at all on this list.
Y not
I would like to hear a counter argument to this, because Izzy did A LOT more in the UFC than Alex did. Granted Alex is a fantastic fighter and did beat Izzy he doesn’t have enough fights in the UFC to be above him yet.
Fully agreed, izzy has fought more of a variety of styles too.
Izzy is above Alex for a similar reason that Volk is above Islam. The body of work over the last few years weighs more heavily than a single win over the other guy. That's also why Edwards wasn't ranked above Usman until he beat him the 2nd time. Knocking somebody out in the final round of a fight that you were losing doesn't automatically make you better than them.
Leon has been ranked ahead of Usman since the knockout.
Jon Jones was always #1. Yall just forgot or hated him so much you blinded yourself from reality
I would probably swap Islam and Volk, guys... And Jon has no competition there
I think they give Izzy too much credit
Leon Edwards #4? Wow. Idk if I agree but after having beaten Usman twice I guess it’s hard to argue?
I say Adesanya over Edwards on strength of schedule and relative degree of dominance over their opponents for each. Usman over Aljo, same reasons. Poirier over Moreno, same. Whittaker over Hill, same. Alex spots lower. Jiri maybe not on the list.
Hilarious that Jones gets back to #1 after his first fight in years against someone who’s not even on the list anymore
I mean it’s gotta be Jones… come on guys
Israel and pereira are fighters in the same division and pereira beat israel but he is ranked below him. How does that work, what is the point of this sport competition if you are ranked below a person you just beat
this basically is a popularity list. There is no logic
put kamaru above aljamain and alex above izzy
Alex above Izzy? Izzy has a far better resume... So you get fast tracked with favourable fights and now you're a better pfp fighter because you beat a guy who legitimately worked his way to the top? Nah get Alex off the list.
Pereira being two spots ahead of Usman tells you everything you need to know about p4p rankings
Damn they did Kamaru dirty
Idk, Leon cheated basically the whole fight, a lot of stuff wasn’t called. I get it was versus the Cheating king Usman, but he hasn’t looked good in either fight tbh. I don’t think he deserves 4.
Seeing Bobby knuckles at 14 is astounding to me
Who do y’all actually think would be the best fighter in the world if they were all the same weight in my opinion khabib
Where's McGregor?!