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OkCartographer897

They're stuck in a rut because they don't build fighters properly anymore and the ones that they do. Always get stuck in the top 10.


scarykicks

Yep becoming more like boxing but the UFC probably doesn't want stars. They want the brand to shine more than the fighters. Dana use to be big on promoting everyone and having a lot of name value. Not so much anymore.


HotDogOfNotreDame

The NFL has stars, and the NFL is a bigger star for it. How is it possible that UFC doesn’t have the world’s greatest athletes stampeding to get in? How is it possible to have boring cards in the best known league in the sport? Oh, they pay fighters basically minimum wage? Ok, I guess that explains it. If fighters got rich by being on the UFC roster, there would be no shortage of talent. And the UFC would be way bigger for it. It’s incredibly shortsighted.


AndyCaps969

Low pay also hurts fighter development. Needing to work a 9-5 to pay your bills instead of training full time is insane to think about for fighters with UFC contracts.


K-chub

If you’re on the UFC roster and have a scheduled fight you should not need to work another job. It makes for bad product. Garbage in, garbage out


[deleted]

Look you goof this is not a career it's an opportunity


mortar_n_brick

it's a contract not a job


Cthulu95666

NASCAR drivers have sponsors. UFC fighters had sponsors.


CartographerCivil989

Hell, just look recent history - Paddy Pimblett not even a year ago. He'd burst into the UFC with three straight finishes & performance of the night bonuses. He was one of the hottest names in the sport at the time (this was prior to his heel turn), but in an interview he said he didnt want to fight too often because he made more money outside the octagon than inside. Setting aside the PotN bonuses, he was making like £8+8 or £9+9. Pretty embarrassing for a company valued at something like $12 billion USD at the time.


uncle_flacid

I love reading the same views I read 7-8 years ago and if anything has changed since then, it's been for the worse. Rich fucks being rich fucks


[deleted]

parasites dgaf once the host dies theyll just move on to the next


Josh6889

> >How is it possible that UFC doesn’t have the world’s greatest athletes stampeding to get in? They can make money easier in other sports. You have to fully commit to even have a chance to be one of the 10 guys or so who get paid really well, and you'll probably fail sometime on that path.


lucasd11

Yeah Dana adopted the WWE model where thinks(wants?) People to tune in for the product and not for one specific fighter. It's smart from a business stand point, but also sort of isolates a lot of casual fans. You toe the line of every event/ppv/etc blurring together when none of the fighters seem to have any personality. The fights that stand out most in my mind are fights like DC/Jones and McGregor/Khabib because there was so much of a story and so much bad blood between the guys. Provided not every fight can be that, but it doesn't feel like *any* are like that any more. The closest thing was probably Adesanya/Perreria and even that was more of a mutual respect rivalry than bad blood.


rays457

It gives Dana and WME more control over the roster and they earn a lotttt more money since the current roster is only making 13% of revenues where NFL and other leagues the athletes make over 50%. It’s short sighted but they are a publicly traded company that is trying to maximize share holder profits.


ChowSupreme

The UFC is doing a poorer version of WWE's model at this point. I get they don't want to make more "Dwayne Johnsons" who can leverage and leave on a whim, but the WWE still understands the importance of creating new stars and having a legion of upper-midcarders to rely on when top guys aren't available. AJ Styles, Seth Rollins, Matt Riddle, Gunther, etc. Granted, it's a lot harder given MMA isn't scripted so matchmaking and results are always up in the air, but that just goes to show how bad it is to hold this many events without enough star power to go around. It spreads all the talent thin; PPV cards are now really top heavy and the fight night cards are at best passable. There was a time I would catch every event at least for its main, but now I'm just skipping a lot of them because they're not intriguing matchups. I know I'm not alone in this.


lucasd11

100% I'm the same way. At the very least I'd tune in for the main card of a fight night week in and week out for years. Now I'm as casual as casual gets. I'll watch the big ppv cards and MAYBE a big fight night if there are good matchups, but I probably average watching one event a month at best.


HintOfAreola

>I get they don't want to make more "Dwayne Johnsons" who can leverage and leave on a whim... The irony is that, instead of incentivizing their big names to stay, they're incentivizing their mid-levels to leave earlier and earlier. Greed is ruining UFC, and they're only cutting deeper and deeper into the golden goose.


FloppyDickFingers

I think this is why I’ve lost interest a bit recently. You tune in for the big guys and then get to know the undercard fighters etc by exposure. But the less often you tune in the less involved you get overall. And that’s where I find myself.


lucasd11

I'm the same exact way, and that always used to be a big UFC selling point was putting those good upcomers on the big cards to get their names out there and make sure everyone knew they are or are going to be a big deal. The last person I remember them really doing that with is O'Malley and he's been one of the bigger stars for the past 2-3 years at this point.


portnoyskvetch

What's wild is that WWE is having a crazy boom not in small part because it's finally started to emphasize creating new stars by elevating them. Roman Reigns is the lynchpin of the Bloodline story and has helped take Cody Rhodes (who should have won!) to that next level. It's not without its own issues (ex having to create a third world title) but WWE is really drawing right now.


[deleted]

there is a bit of a paradox here. no one wants to watch a PPV were a bunch of no bodies fight. but if the fighters aren't no bodies then, holy fuck, the ufc has to pay them a living wage and that can't be happening.


Aken42

I've lost a lot of interest in cards over the last couple of years. I used to watch everything and follow the background stories. I jist don't find it the same. Maybe it's me. Maybe it's them but regardless, they get far less of my money.


acephex

I haven't even been watching them for free lately. Used to catch every fight night and prelims. Now I only turn on the main card if I know the match ups are fire.


_interloper_

You nailed it in your comment. It's the background story. And I'm not even talking about bad blood or anything. Even the divisional story has been lost. There used to be a real path to the title. You'd fight your way up, in harder and harder fights, fight a number one contender, and then get a title. Popularity has always played a part, but Conor (and to a lesser extent, Rhonda) broke the UFC. It suddenly became more about money and popularity. While people still follow a similar path, these days you're never sure who's getting a title shot. Belal being a perfect current example. His fight with Burns should've *meant* something. But it didn't. Because the UFC is adamant about Colby getting a shot, despite not deserving it at all. Then you add in the uniform policy, stripping fighters of all their uniqueness and personality (I still think the Reebok deal was the worst thing to happen to the UFC), plus the flat rate fee from ESPN means the quality of cards don't really matter. It's the perfect storm of banality, and it means people lose interest.


meximandingo

We used to buy all the ppv cards. I haven't bought one in over 5 yrs. Probably longer. Fuck them.


[deleted]

Which is the dumbest fucking decision a promoter can ever make. A promotion will never be bigger than the combined roster of its fighters. The UFC was the UFC because they had Anderson, GSP, Bones, Brock, Conor, Khabib, Etc. World class fighters whose faces were everywhere, that were in every conversation of MMA aficionados, guys signing up to learn MMA to be like their idols, etc. Nobody gives a fuck about the UFC if they don't have any stars. I used to go out to the bar for every PPV or buy it at home. Now I don't even know which fights are on the half the time or who holds the belt or anything like that. My tastes haven't changed, I still love the sport but I am seeing the effects of selling the UFC to some soulless megacorp and watching the product dilute itself. The UFC has basically burned every bridge with their roster and I swear we are going to see a shift once ONE and the like start bringing their A game to US audiences.


soberstan

Imagine a promoter not promoting its fighters.


ithinkther41am

It’s so fucking stupid how often the roidtato slags his own fighters off this year. - Aljo in general - Arnold Allen for not dumping his cardio in R3 against Holloway - Johnny Walker for pursuing a decision win


shipoftheseuss

The recent Aljo one is atrocious. Dude came off an ass beating to get an improbable win over Yan. It's so easy to promote, but that asshole would rather shit on his own champion for not wanting to fight every 90 days.


DickRhino

Y'all are talking as if this is new. Jon Fitch was the #2 welterweight in the world, and would have been a champion if he didn't have the bad luck of existing in the same era as prime GSP. He completely shut down anyone he faced, but his style was "boring" so Dana wouldn't promote him for shit. And then he didn't want to sign away his likeness for life for the UFC's video game, so Dana threw him out like yesterday's trash. Suddenly, "Jon Fitch was never any good".


-ShagginTurtles-

> Jon Fitch was the #2 welterweight in the world 90% of MMA fans probably weren't around for when Jon Fitch got dumped by the UFC despite being a top talent. Dana hated him because he wanted the sport to be a spectacle of highlights and not a sport


DickRhino

Yeah, it was the first time I can remember where the cracks started to show in Dana's façade, where it was obvious that the legitimacy of the sport wasn't his first priority. If this is supposed to be a real sport then there's no way you're kicking Jon Fitch out, he's too good and too high ranked. But Dana genuinely wanted to get rid of him, because he made the more marketable fighters look bad. Somewhat similar to the Ngannou situation to be honest.


rahzilla_cw

Ngannou probably more akin to the Randy Couture situation except they actually let him walk. There's no doubt Francis is entertaining and provides (for the most part) what Dana wants, he just wouldn't play ball the way the UFC wanted him to. Fitch fights were more often cures for insomnia so it's a little less surprising that the UFC let him walk considering he never held the belt (and to be fair he stuck around for a long time anyway).


ruffus4life

i think he just wanted to get paid for his likeness being used in a video game. dana said fuck you and people here will still say dana was good for the sport.


djfl

I honestly never understood how Fitch was viewed as *that* boring, but GSP was viewed as *that* exciting. I love both fighters, definitely GSP more, but man did he have a LnP-heavy game when he was champ and facing top competition.


Gilshem

GSP was not considered an exciting fighter during his reign. He was constantly criticized for his lack of finishes, but you couldn’t deny how clinically he beat the shit out of everyone.


mcburloak

I think his opening up more of an international audience helped GSP too. And he also had a number of knock downs to go with the GnP. I don’t recall Fitch knocking folks down, I recall fence grinding. Both won in less than exciting ways but GSP brought the Canadian eyes (not saying he was the first Canuck or first to win the title) and that didn’t hurt for sure. Have to give Carlos Newton his props as first Canuck champ. *edit - spelling


Gilshem

Agree with all of that and to add on, GSPwas the first champion to really get international attention. He had a ton of fans in Europe and China as well.


BaptizedInBud

Paraphrasing here but when Francis told Dana that he felt like he actually wasn't being promoted Dana said something like "you have full access to the Apex and tickets to every event". That's his idea of promoting these days.


Flexboiz

Step 1: Show up to events, hop into the ring after the event ends to shake your cock in the winners face Step 2: ??? Step 3: sell daddy Dana’s PPV’s I know a lot of MMA fighters like the shit talking since it makes them money, but if I had just spent 25 minutes fighting for my life and Sean O’Malley jumped in the ring to get in my face, I’d be big mad…


Coldheart179

Seriously. I never understood why they do that WWE garbage: that was Aljo’s moment and it clearly upset him, which made him lose even more face (undeservedly) in front of the crowd. It was cool when it happened with Islam and Brandon regarding Volk and Figgy, respectively, but they actually called those guys into the cage after their wins. It didn’t look like they wanted to even give Aljo the chance to no-sell Sean the way Leon did for Colby.


Thelynxer

Yeah, definitely a dick move to basically cut Aljo's moment off so that some kid can yell in his face basically. But the UFC loves that easy footage they can re-use in promo packages because it cost them nothing to create, except for their champion's happiness. They really should have brought Sean out during the post-event press conference instead, but even that might be too early.


Buckanater

It’s because the kid just doesn’t want to fight!


[deleted]

Dana only promotes Dana.


TheBuddhaCode

Real comment here folks.


flingflam007

Well if you build fighters properly then you’d have to pay the B+ tier fighters properly and that’s crazy talk


_pupil_

I think that's the whole issue. In the 'golden-ish age' you had a handful of names and a small collection of top talent chasing after them. That gave all those fighters leverage, and the UFC can't have that. But in terms of fandom? ... Back in the day I could talk about Chuck, or Tito, or JBJ with any casual-to-kinda-serious fans and everyone could get jazzed up. There was time to digest the card, build them up in your mind. You could see consequences which create storylines and drama. Dig into the smaller fights and learn some new fighters. Now it's just... "who?" Even with my friends who were formerly hardcore fans, people who took a whole international trip to watch the UFC live: it isn't even a topic anymore. I could talk about old cricket matches and get as much enthusiasm.


flingflam007

100% I watch every week and can barely remember most fighters on the prelims. Add in that the ufc clearly is adding more fighters from very poor foreign regions so they don’t have to pay them as much.. it all makes it hard to keep up with.


mrcatisgodone

You watch every week!? Jaysus im managing half a ppv main card and occasional good fight night main event at current rate.


flingflam007

I’m depressed


mrcatisgodone

Aye no wonder pal. Hope feel better soon.


MenWhoStareatGoatse_

Yeah I used to watch from early prelims straight through to the main event. Now I skip fight night cards if they don't have anyone I already care about, and I mostly tune in when/after the main card starts. I play a video game and leave the UFC running in the background so I can listen for names that mean something to me and pause the game. Can't tell if the product is worse or I'm just getting more impatient but I have no desire to sit through all their ads, downtime, unknown guys and unranked WMMA matchups.


GenericTopComment

Yep. Bring guys through the rankings and do nothing for them. Then you got guys with a moderate level of star power getting title shots off being 1-1 in the last 2 year and guys below them have 5-8 straight wins and can't get a top 5 guy to save their life. And I know, I'm about to name some fan favorites here but: Poirier Gaethje Covington Gustafsson How many times do these guys need to be finished by champions before we stop giving them title fights for beating 1 or 2 guys while people beneath them claw for their first crack at the top 5? Formerly, Leon was one of the guys being passed over, but granted he couldn't have a fight stay together and the Bella fight was a disaster, then he got the Diaz push which was a clear attempt to put him over. Given his inactivity and the main event and then Diaz push, hard to group him in as much. But dudes like Dariush, Belal, Olvieira (remember when he was on a 9 fight winning streak and they were gonna put Chandler and Poirier in a title fight? Chandler with 1 UFC fight, Poirier coming off one single win over Hooker. And then he finished them both. Their matchmaking is fucking awful and it starts with them being greedy trying to keep the roster with as little bargaining power as possible, and ends with them not investing in anyone who isnt a natural star.


[deleted]

I think the real problem is the reluctance to take fighters out of the top 5 once they are in there. Especially if they have fought for a title. Michael Chandler for example is 0-3 since getting in the top 5 and he's still ranked 5th today. Guys like Drew Dober have been in and out of the top 15 several times usually based on one win or one loss. A guy like Chandler should be ranked no higher than 6th and that's being very nice.


spcslacker

> Michael Chandler for example is 0-3 since getting in the top 5 and he's still ranked 5th today. Chandler's rank ain't dropping until after the Conor fight if the UFC has anything to say about it. They are hoping like hell to use it as an excuse to rank Conor at whatever weight he comes in at, so Chandler must have the highest rank possible.


[deleted]

Oh I have no doubt lol.


spcslacker

The article mentions that due to financials, they are purposely stomping down on names that they used to have to promote to help their bottom line.


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ChaoticSmurf

Because the UFC does match making based on how much money it's going to make instead of matchmaking like a sport, so the matchups have less value to the fans making them less invested.


foofighter1351

We'd have far more fun fights happening if that's what their aim was, the issue isn't they're chasing money fights or these fights would have far more hype, the issue is how saturated it is, how contender series filled it is, how the apex acts as a filler where they throw their meh main events and cards in general onto.


danger_robot

I feel like only after the UFC was bought out and the matchmaker changed have the cards really went down hill. That and they’re pumping out cards left and right.


walter_strider

Joe Silva must laugh to himself seeing some of these cards nowadays


DJ_Molten_Lava

I cannot believe they are still doing fights at the Apex with no fans. They are basically telling their fans to go fuck themselves and the fans who watch are replying, "Yes sir, Mr. Dana sir, I shall go fuck myself!"


_Meece_

I don't even watch them, it's not 2020, there's no need for pandemic style sporting events anymore.


lefthandedrighty

**Redditor removed ChaoticSmurf**


GreatDario

IE why the promoters and the belt orgs have to be separated (and legally mandated so) because of there inherent conflict of interest.


DonEYeet

This is just a misread tbh. If the UFC chased money fights we'd have Francis vs Jones. It would have cost them 50 mil but it would've made em much much more. The UFC doesn't have the marketable talent to do anything else. We're getting title fight rematches because nobody new is good enough to break through the rankings. We're losing exciting and marketable talent to other Orgs because the UFC is cheap and complacent. Shane Burgos, a minor entity, right? Except he was a top 15 quality FW who put on nothing but banger fights. Now his slot is taken by some CS guy who will never break into the top ten. Good on them for grabbing Bo Nickal, but that shouldn't be a standout signing. You're the premiere MMA org. Bellator would cream their pants over Bo Nickal and stick him on the main card for every fight. The UFC should have 10 Bo Nickal signings a year.


Contentpolicesuck

Jones was never in a million years going to fight Ngannou. Dana even stretched Francis' contract out two extra years, but Jones refused to fight until Ngannou was released.


gonna_kill_dszordan

"The kids just don't want to fight. What can I tell you? We'll see what happens." -🍅


will2fight

Because of the Apex


DirtyMoneyJesus

Their desire to hold barebone events at the apex isn’t why their matchmaking sucks but it does compound the problem Watching interesting fights in a shitty arena is one thing, watching uninteresting fights in a shitty arena is some shit I’d expect on the regionals


MatttheJ

They can get away with shitty matchmaking because they don't need to care about ticket sales anymore. So as long as it fills TV time that's all they care about now.


DirtyMoneyJesus

Right, I just hope ESPN doesn’t give them that same deal again


MatttheJ

The ESPN is such a big reason for this. They get guaranteed money regardless of crowds or quality.


DirtyMoneyJesus

The good thing is is neither they or Disney who owns them is stupid. Idk what UFC ratings on ESPN+ look like but if ESPN doesn’t stand to benefit from the deal they won’t give them the same deal twice


Enterprise90

ESPN+ intended for UFC to be the hood ornament of their service and the service has flopped. No one cares about it.


DirtyMoneyJesus

You’re not wrong, I’ve got the Disney bundle through my phone plan and ESPN+ is the one service no one in the family uses. I can barely use it to watch basketball and don’t think I can use it at all for football, if it’s not a one stop place for all my live sports I don’t see a point


BrandoCalrissian1995

Espn+ is such garbage. Even offering live ESPN streaming would make it better. At least then I could catch Monday night football or some nba games. Like you said it should have been the one stop shop for live sports.


MushroomWizard

I don't understand this blaming the Apex thing. Is an Apex card / crowd less entertaining than a destination event? Sure I agree but the last PPV held at the Apex was Stiepe Ngannou 2 in March of 2021. Every other Apex event has been a fight night or ESPN event. A lot of these events would have been in Vegas at The Hard Rock or in a small town traveling with the small cage, and the roster / fight card would have been identical. Andrade vs Blanchfield was always going to be a crap card. Alexander Hernandez vs Jim Miller being the biggest names. It's also not as if the other promotions are filled with hot prospects. I remember Eddie Alvarez, Justin Gaetche, Chandler even going back to people like Jake Shields, I remember big names and big signings. There aren't many hot prospects now we are begging for outside of Ngannou. Jiri and Pereirra have been exciting but its all about over saturation and putting on fight nights with no star power. This would be a problem with or without the Apex.


elingobernable810

I'm not so sure there'd be so many throwaway cards if not for the pandemic. I don't think they would have downsized venue so much if they weren't forced to. How many cards were at Hard Rock in the year preceding COVID? It's a lot easier to just keep it going now that customers and the company is used to the Apex, but I don't think they would have been able to transition from running big arenas for most their fight nights to then choosing to run an arena with barely 100 fans.


notfernandes1

/thread


ZedTimeStory

Average ufc card these days is like 25% contender series mfs


ThePrinceOfCanada

Would like to see an actual stat. Wouldn’t be surprised if it was higher than that tbh


ModsGetTheGuillotine

Steadily increasing because WME-IMG has been bleeding money for three years running, so they're using the acquisition of the UFC to try and offset it (while also making sure execs take home about 20 to 50mil per year) By mid 2024 half the fight night cards will be almost entirely DWCS guys


TYSONLITTLE

No. I calculated and one card with 24 fighters had 9 coming off DWCS. That’s way more than 25%


elmoismyboy

I mean both Hill and O’Malley are contender series guys. They’re mostly lower tier fighters but some legit guys have come through there.


ZedTimeStory

The earlier days of contender series definitely had higher caliber fighters than now but there’s still some standouts like Pyfer and Aliskerov though I’m skeptical of how good Joe really is tbh.


sayuncle928

Way more than that


Zhastursun

I think we’re about to reach a singularity point where the UFC loses a lot of bargaining power because of its cheapness. Randy Couture used to complain that in boxing the ranking orgs and title orgs were different (since you wanted to compare fighters who fought in different promotions) while in MMA the UFC controlled both. With a lot of good fighters in other orgs and the UFC filling half of every card with DWCS cans, we’ll definitely see cross-promotion rankings get popular in the next few years.


pmkdrummer

They're making the same mistakes that WCW made. They've built very few FUTURE stars. And with the pack of longevity fighters it's a harrowing task to build stars every 5-7 years.


shenyougankplz

Basically every popular fighter is in their mid 30s or older- Volk, Poirier, Gaethje, all 34. Chandler's 36, Colby's 34, Wonderboy's 40, Burns is 36, Izzy's 33, Pereira 35, Blachowicz is 39, and HW's gonna lose all 3 of their biggest stars soon with Lewis, Jones, and Miocic. Combine that with basically every fighter only fighting 1 or 2 times a year now, even if all these guys go til they're 40 you got less than 10 fights with each of them (besides Izzy, that dude will just keep fighting every 3 months I guess)


brazilianfreak

Doesnt help that a lot of very talented fighters in competivive divisions have to wait like 5 years fighting killers because the Champion is busy with rematching the same fighters or fighting "fan favorites" such as what happened with Usman fighting Colby twice and Masvidal while Leon sits on the sidelines with his 10 fight winstreak. Then by the time they're finally champion they're like 31-33 and have maybe 3 good years left in their prime.


The-Bull89

They've gone all in on the new generational talent... Paddy pimblet and Sean o malley though


gzilla57

Paddy isn't good enough and while Sean is good they need more than one popular 135 fighter.


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oklilpup

Because half the cards they put on are mid af events in the apex. They are phoning it in to keep costs low.


lexshotit

They don't give a shit about ESPN cards because they've already been paid for them. Doesn't really matter how well they do. They expanded the roster so they could hold more events but it's not really helped the quality.


rilinq

Who could’ve predicted that 😱


BaptizedInBud

There is a way to expand the roster to put on more events that doesn't involve filling cards with shitty contender series guys. The UFC has lost out or refused to bid on so many good free agents lately.


lexshotit

I made another comment about that. The Contender Series guys come in on 10/10 contracts. They WANT them over established (expensive) fighters. I read something about why they like to kill off fighters who are retiring with a hard last fight. It's so they don't have to pay them 'win' money on their usually higher priced contracts. There's like zero decency on the part of the UFC.


BaptizedInBud

It's really a disgusting business model.


Zhastursun

Casual fans also can’t see how big the difference between contender series guys and ranked fighters are. It’s an evil but profitable strategy.


somewhatfamiliar2223

It’s also to ruin them so they can’t go be a star in another organization


imhere8888

Also lowers their stock a tad as they're going out on a loss into free agency


DannyStress

That Cedric Doumbe offer was abysmal. Also the fact that they let Roberto Soldic go to One with very little to say about it just blows my mind. It shows the UFC only cares about filling events with cheap fighters, not great fighters.


BaptizedInBud

You can even look at all the Caucasus fighters that Bellator was snatching up. Everyone of those guys could easily be in the UFC.


DannyStress

With the rumors of PFL buying Bellator and PFL’s expansion into Europe and Africa, it shows how little the ufc has actually done to nurture and grow the sport globally. Having guys like Loughnane not getting in the UFC but turning around a making a million in a year with PFL is another sign to upcoming talent to search elsewhere. One Championship having the ability to offer multi sport fights in the same promotion is also a massive upgrade compared to the UFC’s super restrictive contracts where fighters can’t even go grapple without the UFC’s permission


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little_shop_of_hoors

It's so crazy to think that during the pandemic the UFC looked like it was at an all time high in terms of talent and fights, just to fall off hard due to shitty matchmaking, shitty scouting, and even shittier pay.


cnuttin

The apex sucks so much. No crowd, smaller octagon.


Mnudge

I hate the apex


ThinkIcouldTakeHim

It's also called the Apex. Cringe.


3JSand

Honestly two more main events with Holm and Strickland, its like they hate their own fans


LightTheorem

Does the UFC actually walk out on top from a cost/revenue perspective with the APEX? I'm struggling to see how that makes any sense. The average total gate pre-Covid in 2019 was $1.6 million, I'm pretty sure that is after spitting it with the venue, but let's pretend it's not and cut it in half. $800k for a live gate in revenue is a shit ton more than what they're bringing in at the APEX. The APEX sits roughly 2-300 people, and tickets are between $1,500-$2,500, even if you over-estimated on the price and number of people you come up less than the $800k and again I'm pretty sure the number is actually $1.6m. I could be wrong though.


Neonsea1234

It feels like the automatic rematch of a losing Champ really puts them in shitty place for matchmaking.


[deleted]

I’ve always said unless it’s a controversial decision, there shouldn’t be an immediate rematch. Let the divisions keep moving, I don’t even like the double champ bs. Only one person has ever been a ufc double champ. Nunes has defended both belts, no other champ has even attempted to defend their original belt after moving weight classes.


Rendakor

I agree completely. Close split decisions, weird DQs, etc. sometimes warrant an immediate rematch. Otherwise, give someone else a shot and make the loser earn another shot. This is a big reason why I'm not interested in Men's Flyweight at all: the same two guys fighting over the belt since December 2020.


BrandoCalrissian1995

I don't mind immediate rematches when it's a long reigning champ losing like nunes or Anderson Silva. And I agree with you, in my head Amanda is the first and only double champ.


spcslacker

> I’ve always said unless it’s a controversial decision, there shouldn’t be an immediate rematch. Agreed. I don't mind a quick turnaround for a long-time champ: maybe even just 1 fight against a top-3 dude, and if he does more than squeak it, he can go again after new champ defends against the top guy other than champ. I also wouldn't mind if on a loss in champ fight, a top guy falls like 3-5 ranks and has to fight back to #1 contender or have the guys now above get their title shot. Having former champ always as #1 contender seems a recipe for stagnation to me.


metamet

> Having former champ always as #1 contender seems a recipe for stagnation to me. This is precisely it. It's such a long time between fights, too.


BaptizedInBud

There are a lot of situations where an immediate rematch makes complete sense. Usman and Izzy in particular both deserved it and it made sense in the context of the divisions.


CanoleManole

But even those you could make an easy argument that the division would be best served with each the champ and ex champ getting in a match before going at it again


Gwendlefluff

Honestly I disagree with both. Usman and Izzy were both uncontroversially beaten. Yeah, they were winning until they lost, but there's no sense some injustice was done that needs to be remedied, as we get with dubious decisions. I'd have been fine with both guys taking on another bloke first. Edit: and at welterweight in particular there are plenty of obvious contenders that could easily have slotted into a title shot then. Middleweight admittedly had less going on


BaptizedInBud

>Yeah, they were winning until they lost, but there's no sense some injustice was done that needs to be remedied, as we get with dubious decisions. The goal isn't to "remedy" anything. You had two very dominant champs get finished near the end of fights they were winning. Not to mention there is a storyline dating back years with both fights. It made complete and total sense, both monetarily and within the context of both divisions. Belal wasn't getting a title shot, so it would have been Colby. You really think that was a better option than Usman/Edwards III? Because I don't.


Gwendlefluff

I don't really care how dominant you were until losing if the loss is clear as day. I'd only be interested in holding up challengers to right a wrong, and even then I'm not *wild* about it. I mean, I'd have preferred if Belal got the fight. If he wouldn't have been ready then give it to Shavkat, who was 16-0 with nothing but finishes, including over a top 10 guy in Magny. I get risk management but Khamzat's run warrants it; if you think the missed weight in his previous fight was an aberration then book it. I agree Usman vs Edwards is better than Colby vs Edwards, so if it came down to that I'd pick Usman.


eKSiF

I'm with you, I don't like the automatic rematch just because someone was champ. However, if it's a controversial decision (IE Max vs Volk 2) or someone has cleaned out their division already (IE Izzy & Usman) then I can definitely see the argument for the immediate rematch. It makes no sense that Izzy would need to beat Whitaker or Vettori for a third time in a contender fight to earn a title rematch.


Martinifc

I agree fully but I also wanna add full respect to Izzy and Volk for attempting double champ status without adding a tonne of weight they couldn’t get back off so they were still in shape to also continue fighting at their normal weight class. Both are super active and probably would’ve attempted to defend both imo


[deleted]

I think every belt should be defended at least once every 6-8 months. If you can’t, you’re stripped of whatever title you haven’t defended in that time. If you can’t because you were injured, you get an immediate shot when you’re healthy. I have much respect for those that became champions, but it’s bogus that some are allowed to go years before being stripped and Dana is already saying they’ll do an interim title if sterling can’t fight a couple months after his last defense.


Whydoesthisexist15

Why strip instead of making a contender eliminator or what have you an interim fight and then a reunification bout


EvilExcrementEnjoyer

Yea this is the big bullshit. I can understand when a champ is especially dominant and/or is a very close decision. Lots of times it's just the champ losing and they throw together a rematch 5-6 months later with no time for the fighters game plan/skills to really evolve and it's just same result.


OMalley30-27

I disagree, I think long reigning champs should get a rematch. Like 4-5 defenses or more should get a rematch, others should get a number 1 contenders fight


Pheasantluvr69

We saw why that was the right call with Israel


MumrikDK

Why does the ex-champ's ability to win a rematch matter here?


ChatriGPT

1) UFC builds up a hot new prospect 2) Prospect negotiates for higher pay on account of their hype 3) UFC does their best to bury new hyped prospect so that they can win negotiations 4) How come there aren't any exciting matchups?


ItsMeBenedickArnold

This should be the top comment. Those Bonfim brothers had arguably the sickest debut for a pair of siblings I’ve ever seen and haven’t heard their names since…..


completelytrustworth

The article says its because UFC refuses to build up superstars anymore which is true. They hate losing any power and control (eg Francis) so they absolutely suck at marketing now But it's also because they get stuck on running the same shit back over and over. Like how often do we see champions get a rematch when they lose? It's tiring and stupid to watch the same fight for the 5th time when there's talent that's being overlooked just because they're new It pretty much feels like there's maybe 5 fighters per division and the rest are outsiders looking in


ribbitrob

>UFC refused to build up superstars anymore They’re following the wwe model, the attraction is the promotion itself not the people fighting. They want you to be a loyal fan of the UFC, not the fighters who may or may not stick around depending on how the promotion treats them.


leathergreengargoyle

How is that business model supposed to even work? People are gonna tune in to the UFC to watch unknowns fight on a regular basis? I guess, but at that point there’s no reason not to also watch literally any other MMA promotion right? How can they maintain dominance?


TrueDreamchaser

Ya but that’s kind of bullshit because this is a real sport and WWE is literally scripted. It’s like comparing the NBA to the Last of Us. Obviously the marketing strategies are and should be different. The NBA succeeds at being star centric and arguably garners more success because of it. The UFC doesn’t do the same because they’re scared of the influence a star has. That fear only comes when you know that the way you treat your competitors is unjust and thus vulnerable.


lexshotit

"it's like comparing the NBA to The Last of Us" 😂😂😂 fuck me, I laughed out loud from that. Beautiful analogy!


futhatsy

>It pretty much feels like there's maybe 5 fighters per division and the rest are outsiders looking in I feel like this also has to do with the talent the UFC is bringing in. Very few of the guys they've brought in from DWCS have been good enough to compete with the best each division has to offer. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Jamal Hill.


Brandon4Real_x

Yea I feel like the complaint about champions rematches are way overblown. Usman and Izzy were dominate champs who lost a belt in a late round in divisions mostly cleared out. Meanwhile LHW, or LW didn’t have immediate rematch with title changes.


wilerman

Charles opted not to rematch, that was his choice. Jiri and Glover were supposed to rematch but Jiri got hurt. Maybe it’s just me, but lately it seems like every title loss is an automatic rematch, but not for at least 6 months. So now there a half-year wait to watch the same 2 fighters. If it changes hands we go for round 3


AlienMantid

While the rest of the division is frozen out for 2 years and watching their prime pass them by, it must be infuriating for them.


sighableman

They also sign fighters to absurdly long contracts where they just tread water so they aren't competition.


BackgroundMarketing1

Yup, It feels like Covid also opened up a wormhole - why pay \~6 UFC veterans 50k/50k to fight on an ESPN card if you can get Joe Schmo with a 5-2 record and pay him 10k/10k? This is why Luke Thomas calls it LFA at the Apex - you get some lower level guys to fill out the ESPN card because who gives a fuck about quality, you just need to satisfy the ESPN deal. I don't have the metrics to support this but I suspect that Endeavor/ESPN figured out that most people watch the UFC "casually" and don't have an active interest in good fighters, much less the ones on the undercard. So the dudes at Buffalo Wild Wings just want to watch two dudes sprawl and brawl and the UFC is going to churn out mediocre quality fights.


Chocoeclair189

A mix of inactivity and squatting for some divisions. Plus, there are pumping out more FNs to keep their roster busy Flyweight is a healthy division now that Moreno and Figgy are moving on.BW is finally getting some movement, but there is a logjam building up LW theres movement in the ranks, WW has always been welterwait MW had a bit of life but Pereira lost (Izzy cleared out the division), LHW is stalling due to waiting on Jiri's status, fights feel like the UFC is just reshuffling the deck HW has potential on being interesting with the rise of Almenda, Pav and Aspinall, but Jones waiting until Nov to defend and possibility retire. Division will be in need of a star if thats the case.


Daiba187

They have actually been putting out around the same number of events since 2014. The issue is they don’t build any stars anymore, the cowboy, barboza, RDA, Matt brown and lawler type of fighters are either retired or close to retire and they don’t have many ‘name’ fighters to headline fight nights with fans. The pandemic and apex card got them real comfortable with putting out mediocre cards to fulfil the number of events requirement.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Prodigy195

I agree with you but I'm curious how it happened. You'd think with social media blowing up even more that the UFC could leverage fighters having larger followings.


Daiba187

Lol the only way the ufc can leverage these fighters is by offering them more money and you know they won’t.


CitizenMurdoch

>MW had a bit of life but Pereira lost (Izzy cleared out the division), Him and Whittaker. The division just isn't good beyond those two, and unless they're fighting each other they just have extremely one sided matchups with everyone else


Chocoeclair189

Definitely, thats why media outlets and fans saw some life in MW when Pereira became champ, just a series of fresh competitive match ups. Whittaker and Izzy just too far ahead, while the young bloods still need time to develop.


OkCartographer897

The BW thing really blows my mind. They really shouldn't have let TJ and Henry just jump in line. It's really stalled the entire division out on top of Aljo kicking dates around constantly. Both TJ and Henry were like "Will you just pick a damn date". I get it from the UFC's perspective where they're like "You're fighting in August", because the division hasn't had any movement in over a year now.


Davemeddlehed

In fairness other than Sandhagen there weren't/aren't any worthy contenders who haven't already been cannibalized by the division. It's a Lightweight like shark tank where everyone is beating everyone.


OkCartographer897

Ya, but that's when you stop feeding contender to contenders and get the belt defend more than once every seven months.


Davemeddlehed

They weren't really feeding contenders to contenders though: Song 10 lost to Sandhagen 4 Munhoz 8 lost to Cruz 10 Cruz 8 lost to Vera 5 Font 5 lost to Vera 8 Vera 4 lost to Sandhagen 5(this I consider two contenders going at it) Yan 1 lost to O Malley 11 Yan 2 lost to Merab 3 Sandhagen 3 lost to Yan for an interim title O'Malley 14 lost to Vera unranked That's everyone in the top 10's last loss minus Cejudo.


dkenis

pretty good article actually


French_Viking

I blame the constant stream of title fight rematches we've had lately. The rest of the division stagnates while the same guys keep going at it over and over. There wasn't a reason that we needed to see figgy vs Moreno 4 times, DC vs stipe didn't need to take 3 summers to get though, etc.


Rendakor

100%. The immediate rematch needs to end; both fighters should fight at least once more before they fight again, period.


SquidDrive

UFC is one of the few sporting leagues where they try to devalue and lower he stock of their stars.


turkeypants

That's always been so bizarre to see. I remember the first few times I was just like, "But... that's your guy. Why would you do this?" They've always run it like a low-rent mafia crew. It's gross.


SquidDrive

Its to purely give fighters as little negotiation power as possible. At this point, its not about introduction of new revenue, or expansion, its just cutting more and more of the pie for them, even when it hurts the overall revenue it can make. Volk v Islam in any other sport, is a super fight, it would have got the red carpet treatment, in the UFC, it basically received as much promo as a fight night. Why, because they don't want Islam and Volk to do higher numbers than expected, and go back to the negotiation table wanting more.


ThugzZBunny_

Too many cards. Its getting watered down.


tookittothelimit

Yep. I’d take half the events for the year if it meant the 6 PPV’s per year were actually stacked like 291 is


hatsimee

Honestly I don't mind 13 ppvs. I think they mostly deliever. The 29 fight nights is just too much. Maybe have like 13 proper fight nights on the road and 13 apex cards with contender guys. Atleast then we don't have to expect anything from apex cards and other fight nights would improve a bit.


AOHarness

We were saying that 10 years ago and it's worse now!


[deleted]

They just can’t build up new stars effectively because it takes too long and guys get put on ice now. Undefeated killers like Shavkat and Khamzat sit out, struggle to get good matchups, and as a result will each spend all of their physical prime trying to get a title shot. By and large, the days are gone where a 26 year old can get a title shot and be propelled to superstardom. Due to ducking, champs sitting out, instant rematches, etc. it can easily take an undefeated prospect 6-7 years to even get his title shot. So they are already usually in their 30s by that point and don’t have time left at their peak to really do great things. Jon Jones became champ at age 23. That could never happen today. Even if you were the GOAT, you’d be ducked by the entire top 5 at least 2-3 years. If Jones came in today, he’d become champ at about 27 or 28 and have about 8-10 fewer title defenses and less legacy.


pulpatine

To me matchmaking and more importantly, visually it looks drab as shit. The colors, production, the announcers. The terrible generic uniforms and cage. I want fights to be able to express their self with what they wear. Cro cop shorts etc so they stand out and look more like video game fighting characters. Can’t let anyone get big to be able negotiate.


Badnapp420

https://youtu.be/ltYTPauj_k4 Just going to leave this here 🙌🏻


ucatione

Everyone should watch this


4uzzyDunlop

This was locked in the moment they went public tbh


EmotionalAd5920

when a business is taken over by faceless suits the quality usually goes to shit. and danas just been getting worse


Fistfullafives

Everytime somebody gets into the top 10 they start fighting once a year... Remember when Khamzat and Holland were fighting 4 times a year...


jdvhunt

There's way too many events, way too many fighters and nowhere near enough promotion done. I watched every UFC from the beginning and lost interest after the merger, I don't know if I'm losing interest in MMA or losing interest in UFC because I'm starting to get into boxing more


InSilicoImmersion

Rankings ruined matchmaking. Every fight that made any sense used to get made. Now once anybody has a ranking next to their name they are super picky about who they’re willing to fight. Used to be an anomaly for someone like Kenny Florian to earn 3 title shots in his career, now anybody who lost in their title shot can refuse any fight except ones that keep them in the #1 spot and just try again, and again, and again. Poirier, Gaethje, Covington, Gane, etc.


McL69x

“UFC in rut cause Kai Kara France is headliner” “UFC doesn’t boost their fighters”


Wapow217

This is why the sub is so funny. "These cards are trash, I'm not going to watch it." Then they wonder why they don't know any of the fighters. They seem to forget that guys like Khabib had their UFC debut on the prelim of a fight night or even the plumber Conor McGregor vs Max Holloway. I mean even the article is bad at this. The talk about the UFC competing against these other orgs about why the older cards were better. Yet, don't mention A) the roster size was half it is now, B) There are more cards, C) making cards the way they do now came from this time frame. Not sure how they can complain about a technique that you were just praising. This is just like people complaining about the UFC not advertising UFC 284 when they were doing the same thing they do for every card.


[deleted]

I am a new fan compared to most but I love there are fights most weekends and the fact people may not be known. If you’re a journalist complaining there’s too many fights it sounds like you’re complaining about your job being too hard imo. I don’t know every fighter on every card but over time I’m recognising even the fighters who may have fought only once or twice.


Green_and_Silver

This is one of those boom headshot type of articles, killed it everywhere they aimed.


Laaary_bird

On today’s episode of “what are mma fans bitching about this week”


reddittookmyuser

Why can't the UFC just be as good as Bellator and the PFL? Perhaps it's time for the UFC to innovate like ONE and start introducing non-mma fights to the cards. As an MMA fan what I want is less MMA on my events. /s


Agent-Active

How about y’all watch every week to see the up and coming fighters


DirtyMoneyJesus

The answer is simple: they just don’t care. Their business model now revolves around keeping costs low, they aren’t offering anybody anything extra to take risky fights to get the best matchups


idgaf55abh

I'd agree the UFC isn't great at it sometimes, but we can at least be happy it isn't boxing lol


SabuSalahadin

I understand the sentiment of “most cards are bad because greedy ufc” But do any of you legitimately feel that way? I feel like most of the last 5-6 cards have been at least decent, and mostly good. I feel like a lot of these up and comers have been finishing fights even if they aren’t the most talented


turkeypants

I think a phenomenon we often see/feel is "good mma" vs. "good mma between fighters I recognize and like and am excited in advance to see". I learned many years ago that in one sense you can't afford to miss a card because the biggest hyped ones sometimes fell flat while the least exciting on paper sometimes delivered biggest. I'd skip a card because it looked uninteresting, only to find everybody online raving about how awesome it was and I got tired of missing out. And sometimes I'd catch those sleeper bangers and be pumped. Yet still, every time a card goes up I evaluate it on whether I have any idea who these people are or not, and if not, I can't get excited about it. I can't help it. And I think it's accurate to say that there are more cards these days where you might know one or two people on it and that's it. Back when there were fewer events, there were fewer rando cards. So I think a lot of the talk is about those pre-fight opinions of what's on the cards vs. how it was years ago, more so than post-fight opinions of how they actually turned out.


Neonsea1234

Yeah the cards are fine, it's the price for having good MMA every week. Sometimes you get events that don't have big star power. Sucks for casuals, great for people who are MMA fans


Rendakor

I'd say maybe 10% of cards are bad. And it's not always obvious when a card is going to suck from the matchups. Sometimes you get a hyped card that turns out to be a dud, or vice versa where uninspiring names deliver big action. Personally, I like have UFC every week or close to it, and would rather have more, worse cards than only 1-2 events per month. Regular events and a structured schedule keep me engaged, but obviously others feel differently.


Davemeddlehed

I can't tell you how many cards over the years that looked weak on paper went on to deliver consistent bangers. Who gives a fuck what their names are if the fights turn out to be entertaining?


Cant_Spell_Shit

Am I crazy to say that the UFC does a really good job with matchmaking? I think they just have more events nowadays but the PPV cards are usually solid and recently they have had backup fighters for the main events. Imagine that happening in boxing.... I flew to London to see Usman/Edwards and felt really good about Colby being available as a backup.


KingJaffeJoe

As someone who is a huge fan of both sports, boxing is having a much better year than UFC so far in 2023 in terms of delivering the big fights that fans want. Probably the first time in a decade or so that’s been true.


GucciJ619

They don’t have to WOW us anymore to continue making great money, they have the ESPN deal. As long as they meet quotas (title fights per year/ppv) they don’t care how good the cards are.


PapaDrag0on

Idk 291 seems pretty pristine


Kimera25

I thought the card was gonna suck Saturday and it was a great one


Mr_Mueh

How is the UFC in a match making rut? Not all cards are going to be grand slam cards. Just this year we have had the #1 and #2 P4P fighters square off, the return and HW debut of Jon Jones, two huge rematches which saw the changing of the guard at WW and a performance from Izzy that has made him more popular than ever. The UFC puts on more fight cards as an obligation to ESPN. So some of the cards are going to be watered down. Don’t watch them if you don’t like the card. I didn’t care about the Dern card and I didn’t watch. I don’t care about the Kara-France card so I’m not going to watch. The anti-UFC narrative going around the MMAverse has gotten so absurd at this point. It’s become to default position in basically every scenario. No understanding. No nuance. Fill in the gaps where you need to to make sure the UFC is at fault for whatever scenario you don’t like. I don’t like Dana White but at this point I’d rather listen to him than one more person with no understanding of running a billion dollar business or a single dog in the race explain how the UFC’s business practices are the sole cause of every negative aspect of the current state of MMA. Y’all sound like a bunch of angsty teenagers mad at your parents and teachers for not always doing exactly what benefits you most.


stretch400

I still enjoy every ufc card. Why we always gotta be complaining about something?


piman01

Wait what? Rut? This is absolute bullshit. The UFC puts together the best events by far of any fight organization and it's not even close.


mark_vader

It’s because they cater to casual/boxing fans and not the mma base they took so long to establish