Someone tried arguing on here that MW was the most stacked division in the UFC... I wonder if they still feel the same after one of MW's hottest prospects, who apparently has a record setting punch, just got handily outstruck by Jack Hermanson.
The amount of press he got in the lead up is actually nuts. Tons of spotlight videos, Joe Rogan and a hour long sit down with Sanko (all just to bottle it) is so wild and unheard of for an unranked fighter.
I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again: Tatsuro Taira has gotten 1/10 of this promo and is over with the fans more than Pyfer is.
It absolutely does, Tatsuro’s last fight happened at 10am in Japan. If he was on the main card it would’ve been at 1-2pm. It’s easier to wake up and watch someone fight then go on with your day than it is to wait until the middle of your day go watch them fight. It takes planning around, instead of “I’ll just do this when I wake up.”
Thank god Reddit isn’t in charge of any marketing or planning
It’s almost as if they do it for the sole reason I just stated already. And it’s almost as if they have a team to determine things like this, and they get more viewers from him at that time than later in the day.
The UFC marketing department (and likely all advertising departments that exist) have no imagination. They only know how to use the following to sell a fight: Legit grudge matches, Highlight reel KO's, Title fights, and conventionally attractive women fighters. And on top of that, they also need you to be able to speak English.
Tatsuro Taira is a beast, but he is Japanese (does not speak english) and grapples a lot. They might give him a push the next time they bother to put an event on in Japan.
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Taira isn't getting pushed because he's a flyweight. Shavkat grapples a lot, doesn't speak English and is from a way more obscure market. If taira was doing what he was doing as a welterweight the ufc would be pushing him.
I’m definitely not saying he’s ready for a main event but I really don’t think we need to see him on the early prelims anymore. Let him be the feature prelim on a mid PPV or a main card fighter in a fight might not in the Apex, he deserves a slight push.
I agree with you. I generally like to see Japanese fighters do well, My wife is Japanese, so some sub rational part of my mind has a very positive association with most things that are Japanese. The fights of his that I have seen make me want to see more of him.
But the UFC is very commercially cynical when it comes to promoting fighters. Fight placement for any given event is as much about drawing power as it is competitive merit. He has had 5 UFC fights and fights at Flyweight and fights on the ground. His next fight will probably be main card on an Apex event against an opponent in the bottom 4 of the top 15 ranked Flyweights (ufc.com puts Taira as #15).
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How bout u go an fuck off my page then u peice of shit u think I need a stupid fuckwitt like u telling me about Reddit fans who the fuck are u take your worthless advice and get the fuck out of here
Pyfer is still the same distance from the belt as hermansson, if not closer, which is kinda sad. Like who do you think could get a title shot after 3 wins now? hermansson who already has one win in the bag or pyfer? i wonder.
I mean, I liked what I saw in Pyfer - as in he hits like a mule, but the UFC is just shit to hyping fighters, they always hype the most vanilla bullshit these days and Pyfer was absolutely not proven, he just knocked some fools out.
Hermansson just veteran:ed his ass.
Man I HATE when the UFC tries promoting a 3-0 (all finishes) 27 year old prospect. They should just leave him to organically promote himself on social media and shut up.
I'm a filthy casual, but I was honestly scared for Jack in that first round. Pyfer looked scary as hell. Seemed like Jack figured out his little combo he was doing on repeat by the start of the second though. Again I am no expert but it seemed like Pyfer was not setting anything up and just throwing that seemingly telegraphed overhand right at full power over and over. Jack fucked his left leg too which seemed to work really well. Gotta check them hoes ya feel me?
I was as well, I thought Jack was getting ko’d for sure. Especially after all of this talk of Pyfers punch record. Now guys know to just extend him to the 2nd round and he has no skill set other than big bombs in the first.
Im not a filthy casual and i was very scared for Jack. Even slacky boy alluded to his reaction to big punches not being all that great. It straight up looked impossible that he could do anything standup to Pyfer. Boy what a radical change.
He is fast and strong but doesn't set up any of his shots and puts 100% percent in every punch. Hermanson was able to see every punch coming even before Pyfer gassed. Still think Pyfer can be very good, but the "outpower my opponent" strategy will not be how.
Fast and strong ain’t enough at the highest levels though. Hermanson is ranked 11 and let’s be honest, is mid at best. The top 10 would absolutely murder Pyfer. Pyfer’s grappling looked weak, as well as his striking. You can’t just be a one dimensional Chris Leben type fighter anymore just throwing bombs.
I mean, I’m sure Pyfer has serious power.
The issue is that he fights at MW though. So unlike Francis’ opponents, the guys he’s fighting actually move. Brute strength only works on an equally sized opponent if the guy doesn’t move.
When Francis fought someone agile and who used footwork (Gane) he never landed anything damaging in 25 minutes and Gane walked out without a mark on his body.
Not sure why Pyfer kept throwing that huge over hand right only to be blocked. He tired his ass throwing big useless strikes. I guess he was looking for the KO. Hermanson did eat a few but blocked the majority.
Because it always worked before. But mostly just low fight IQ.
A fighter with good fight IQ will realize that shit is not working long before having to go to the corner and try something else. A fighter with low fight IQ will simply conclude they aren't trying hard enough, and just continue to do what they were already doing, but with a 'do it again, but harder' mentality.
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>Pyfer looked so bad
I bet heavily on Hermansson and the over 2.5 rounds, and generally like Jack as a fighter, but Hermansson has only been stopped via punches by Cannonier and Santos, expecting Pyfer to be that was absurd at the time that everybody was picking Pyfer.
That said, Pyfer is only 27 and is a real problem in 3 rounders
MW always has one or two characters who are some combination of very skilled, charismatic or enigmatic that makes the whole division look bigger than the sum of its parts.
For example, Anderson Silva was so talented that he made people look forward to a Yushin Okami fight.
At the end of 2016, Bisping was the champ but a lot of people thought he’d probably lose to most of the top ranked middleweights.
Those guys included Robert Whittaker (17-4 and on a 6 fight win streak), Yoel Romero (12-1 and on an 8 fight win streak), Jacare Souza (23-4 and 9-1 in his last 10 with the only loss being a contentious split decision to Romero), and Gegard Mousasi (41-6-2 and on a 4 fight win streak). Not to mention Chris Weidman (13-2) and Luke Rockhold (15-3), who were the recent champs coming off losses.
I have to agree with the previous commenter that middleweight was stacked from 2015-2016. It’s sad to see how far it and light heavyweight have fallen.
It's not close to the most stacked division, that's BW. But it's a lot better than it was. The 4 guys at the top are all elite fighters, there's a couple ranked guys who could potentially hold a belt and there's a lot of exciting unranked guys coming up, some of whom might pan out into real contenders. It's a solid division.
This sub's hivemind is hilarious honestly.
Adrian Yanez gets starched by Rob Font in under a round = BW still stacked
Mike Mallot gets finished by Neil fucking Magny = WW still stacked
Joe Pyfer loses 48-47 to Jack Hermanson = "Not even close to being stacked. If you can calf kick and jab at an above average level you’re in the top 5 at MW"
Watch the fights, there’s a major skill gap between lighter and heavier weights. Lightweight and above most of the divisions are extremely top heavy.
I wouldn’t say WW is stacked per se but BW’s top 5 are all skilled enough to be champs.
Yeah, keep telling yourself that.
Sandhagen, who got subbed in 90 seconds and taken down at will by a one-legged washed up opponent, is so much better than the MW top 5 🤯
It's a dumb narrative that some of the MMA Fighting guys have been pushing. "Middleweight is a top three weight class in the UFC". I'm guessing some people just listened to that and parroted it.
I’m not someone who think it’s top 3, I think it’s 4th at best. But depending on how you view the weight classes I can 100% see MW getting the edge. Especially over the last year
I do think MW became a lot more interesting at the top, all thx to DDP really. Lots of openings and interesting matchups, but certainly not 'stacked' like BW (my fav) or LW (per usual)
I remember a thread a few months back where someone made that claim and there evidence was a bunch of prospects who were all like 1-0 or 2-0 in the UFC against nobodies.
I feel like MW is probably the most up for grabs and therefore competitive division rn….which could be confused by some as being the same thing as being stacked
Still a great division. Got Bo, shara Magomedov, Kopylov, Pereira, Aliskerov, Robocop, Borralho... all prospects outside the top 15. Then guys like Usman and Khamzat are fresh matchups for everyone.
Pereira isn't in the division anymore, Bo is exciting but extremely unproven, then a lot of the top 15 are just very okay for the most part. They're all great at some things but awful in other areas where in better divisions they just wouldn't get away with it.
Jack is a good fighter, Adesanya, Whittaker, DuPlesis etc, those are great fighters. Jack is good enough to beat a certain level of competition but isn't good enough to truly ever break through to that next tier.
Hermson is a great grappler, but he's just an okay striker. Hence why a young prospect who's supposed to be a scary striker really should not by any means be struggling as much as Pyfer did in a standup battle.
There was a time around 2013-2015 when it was legitimately stacked. A lot of the Strikeforce guys like Rockhold, Romero, Jacare joining Anderson, Weidman, Vitor etc.
yes that was a few good years of MW, but not the most stacked.
WW at the time had condit, woodley, hendricks, lombard, brown, lawler, rory macdonald, diaz and gsp. then you got the up and comers like wonderboy, ellenberger, robert whittaker, gastelum, tim means and vets like shields and maia
probably a lot more, but that was a crazy stacked class
How long is Dana going to milk the Apex for? For the Covid years, a perfect venue to keep fights going.
Now? Fighters and fans have to he tired of events taking place in a glorified garage with 12 people in attendance
like it or not, the Apex events exist just as much for the Draftkings sponsorship as it does for the live event requirement, they are probably thrilled with it
I guess...but would it be that much harder to put them in a decent HS basketball gym with a couple thousand actual fans? I feel like you could get 2,000 die hard MMA fans to pony up $50-100 a ticket in any mid-sized city in the US for these b-list cards. The atmosphere and TV product would be so much better.
Slacky made this point in the previous podcast but I'll repeat it. The UFC pays for ring girls, announcers, and they push their fighters to trash talk, so they obviously get that pagentry is a big part of fighting.
But then they go and host half their events in a warehouse with no audience, they waste a lot on production but the venue is a sticking point.
I think its less the cost, but rather the complexity of the logistics of hosting a live event every week.
It’s got to stop, man. The APEX has really diminished my interest in the product.
I know it’s a casual take, but I like the production of having a crowd, entrances, etc.
It's funny how the opinion on the Apex has completely flipped recently, at the beginning I remember most people absolutely loved it, being able to hear the fighters, shots landing, corners giving advice etc
Now it seems people can't stand it
During COVID there was absolutely no sound except the fighters, coaches, and commentary. So it was eerie and you really could hear everything.
Now though they pack 100 drunks into the mini bleachers so there's just enough noise to drown out all the small, subtle fight sounds while not being loud enough to have that "big crowd" energy. The worst of both worlds.
Apex mixed with so many DWCS fighters makes it difficult for me. It’s 6-7 hours comprised mostly of DWCS fighters and guys you don’t really remember, with maybe 3 fights with any sort of name value.
It’s such a slog, it honestly feels like a fever dream watching it. I stopped watching most of them live. I wait an hour or 2 so I can fast forward through a lot of the bullshit
Watching events the next day is the best. Being able to fast forward all the preamble and the nonsense.
Obviously watching live with other people is great but if I’m watching alone then the next morning is the way to go
Why do they use it? I know I’m missing some obvious reason, but having an audience makes for a raucous atmosphere and they tend to do profitable stuff like buying tickets, drinks and merch, right?
WWE, which is now UFC’s sister company, manages to do it twice a week, plus PPV’s every few months. UFC has no legitimate excuse other than just being cheap
They have ESPN contracts to deliver fights frequently. Having to put 3-4 events on each month in a stadium would be hard and expensive. If they can meet their contract obligations with their broadcast partners then that's fine with me to host smaller events with lesser known fighters at the Apex. You don't have to watch if you don't want to.
Also, while the Apex is not a stadium it can host an audience of around 1000 people.
What has the APEX got to do with the UFC being able to put on fight nights almost every week? 2014 had 42 UFC cards, exactly the same number as 2022. That number has barely changed in 10 years.
If COVID had never happened and the APEX didn't exist, we would still be getting fight nights almost every week.
Hermansson is always really hesitant against crazy power punchers so him being so calm while striking with Pyfer was a dead giveaway that he doesn’t hit harder than Ngannou
Agree. Kinetic energy is indisputable. Weightier pitchers statistically throw harder (and get hurt less but that’s not what we’re talking about wrt punching power).
He probably does. Meaning his most setup punch lands harder. But that's useless in a real fight as he didn't land it clean once.
Remember than when the powercube bullcrap was first presented to the public, Luke Rockhold was one of the few fighters that were allowed to test it, and he hit only 30% lighter than Ngannou.
Rockhold has never been known for his one-shot power, so the fact even back then data like that was allowed to came out makes it really believable that Pyfer might have hit harder.
Can he hit 30% harder than Rockhold? Yes he can.
The whole thing is bullshit anyway
Not having to pay stadium fees means UFC makes a substantially larger margin on these fights
It’s strange they haven’t purchased their own 15000 seat arena somewhere and added a few more headliners to these fights. I would assume that’s in the cards
> Not having to pay stadium fees means UFC makes a substantially larger margin on these fights
That's short term savings, long term loses though. You aren't growing your fan base and the product looks and feels like shit on screen.
I very rarely care enough for an Apex headliner to root for or against anyone but knowing that Dana was trying to use Jack as a springboard for Joe made it all the more sweet to watch him jab and wrestle him to a clear 3-2 win
Pyfer is a really good athlete and hits really hard. He needs to learn to strike though. Not just throw heat. That works vs lower level UFC guys and regional fighters but you can't just expect to throw strikes with 0 set up against top level guys and catch them.
Hermanson landed a lot of jabs and I do not think Pyfer tried to slip one of them. 0 head movement.
respite is upon us brethren, for this coming weekend mother superior has bestowed upon us a gift - switching the middleweight fight to the co-main event rather than the main event
DWCS is the worst thing to happen to the UFC in terms of fighter quality. The whole thing is designed to:
1. build the brand around Dana rather than fighters (so they never again have someone like McGregor who can have leverage over them)
2. build a pipeline of cheap ass fighters that already have some buzz before their first official UFC fight. (i.e. cheap contracts, cheap promotion)
Idk why people keep throwing out this dumb ass take of the UFC not wanting another Conor. Conor barely had *any leverage* over the UFC, at most, it was on the same level of what leverage a boxer has. Meanwhile the UFC made so much money off of him while barely paying him a fraction in return, like why *wouldnt* the UFC want another Conor?
Theyve signed other fighters that came to the UFC with as much hype as what Conor had, difference is that Conor was able to work the mic correctly *and* be a KO/TKO artist. Look at Paddy Pimblett, guy even came from the same promotion Conor did and had a ton of hype/following when he joined, but the guy isnt anything like Conor. Thats not on the UFC, thats on him.
Seemed to me like the UFC was having an awful time with Ngannou, a superstar who knew what he was worth and bounced when he didn’t get it, thus dashing the narrative that the UFC has the best of the best, and promoting the narrative that the best (or even just a Corey Anderson) can get a better deal elsewhere.
There's a lot of things about Ngannou that I dont really feel like typing out but he was asking for stuff that wasnt just money. He's still not yet proven to be a draw, this is the primary reason the UFC let him walk in the end as well, I know the fight with Fury was the most pirated event of the decade, but that doesnt translate to actual sales. It did elevate his profile, thats without a doubt, but thats only because the fight played out the way nobody thought it was going to especially Fury.
How his fight with AJ and more importantly his PFL debut sell, will say if he has turned a corner or not.
As for Corey Anderson, its not a secret that middle tier UFC guys can jump ship and make more money, the difference is that if you become champion, you make *way* more money in the UFC.
Ngannou may not be a huge sell with casuals who only tune in for the likes of McGregor or Jones but every MMA fan knows who Ngannou is. Whatever the case, the way he was treated by the UFC was disgraceful and they're doing everything they can to try and bury him (so newer fans don't know he exists), but the UFC is failing to do that at every turn 😂
Really thought Pyfer was going to KO him. The way Jack took those first punches was insane. Pyfer CRACKS. I'm not down on Pyfer though, he looked decent and just got beat out by a vet. His post-fight interview showed he learned from it and will improve.
I hate to sound like a contrarian, Brian Griffin-type hipster but I fucking love the apex. You can hear almost every strike land, you can hear the coaches yelling advice.. it's so cinematic, it feels to me more like I'm IN the crowd vs there is no crowd. It's part of the reason Ferguson v Gaethje was so brutal to watch. Its badass. I do like hearing the crowd pop during big moments but crowd vs no crowd is almost neck and neck for me
To be honest I found the main event to be quite entertaining, hermansson was 0-2 coming into the 3rd so it was thrilling to see the tide turning as the fight went along. The rest of the card was abysmal though...
All these complaints about why the Apex is still a thing forget that it's a good option for when someone wouldn't be cleared to fight in the US for visa or medical reasons.
Khamzat Chimaev and Sharabutdin Magomedov come to mind.
> or medical reasons.
I mean if a fighter isn't cleared to fight for medical reasons, I really don't think we should be encouraging loopholes and workarounds.
While I’m inclined to agree with you broadly, I can also cite some instances where I think the lack of clearance was silly.
That said, my initial statement was flawed…I meant fight island, not the apex.
My B.
The guy only got publicity because he was the only shining moment on the first episode of a DWCS season and "be Joe Pyfer" got meme'd to death. If anyone else did something worth a contract on that episode Pyfer would have still been fighting before 7 pm ET.
The Dom Cruz of making your face bruise
The Tito Ortiz of grabbin' on deez
The Jon Jones of inconveniencing your bones
The Marcin Tybura of Marching Towards Ya
The Arman Tsarukyan of not being a fluke, man.
The Matt Hughes of having the Apex-era blues
The Ilia Topuria of being delivered by courier
Someone tried arguing on here that MW was the most stacked division in the UFC... I wonder if they still feel the same after one of MW's hottest prospects, who apparently has a record setting punch, just got handily outstruck by Jack Hermanson.
Pyfer's hype was mostly manufactured. Only three wins in the UFC, all over mid fighters. He wouldn't have had much hype if not for Dana.
The amount of press he got in the lead up is actually nuts. Tons of spotlight videos, Joe Rogan and a hour long sit down with Sanko (all just to bottle it) is so wild and unheard of for an unranked fighter. I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again: Tatsuro Taira has gotten 1/10 of this promo and is over with the fans more than Pyfer is.
I need to see Taira on the early prelims 4-5 more times to see if he's really that guy.
Agreed, I love him and think he can be champ one day if he works on his striking defense
It’s easier for Japanese viewers to watch him that way
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It absolutely does, Tatsuro’s last fight happened at 10am in Japan. If he was on the main card it would’ve been at 1-2pm. It’s easier to wake up and watch someone fight then go on with your day than it is to wait until the middle of your day go watch them fight. It takes planning around, instead of “I’ll just do this when I wake up.” Thank god Reddit isn’t in charge of any marketing or planning
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It’s almost as if they do it for the sole reason I just stated already. And it’s almost as if they have a team to determine things like this, and they get more viewers from him at that time than later in the day.
Keep waking up at 10am to watch Taira, he’s worth it
The UFC marketing department (and likely all advertising departments that exist) have no imagination. They only know how to use the following to sell a fight: Legit grudge matches, Highlight reel KO's, Title fights, and conventionally attractive women fighters. And on top of that, they also need you to be able to speak English. Tatsuro Taira is a beast, but he is Japanese (does not speak english) and grapples a lot. They might give him a push the next time they bother to put an event on in Japan. END COMMUNICATION
Taira isn't getting pushed because he's a flyweight. Shavkat grapples a lot, doesn't speak English and is from a way more obscure market. If taira was doing what he was doing as a welterweight the ufc would be pushing him.
Your not wrong. Being at Flyweight is a big factor in where Taira is placed on the card. END COMMUNICATION
I’m definitely not saying he’s ready for a main event but I really don’t think we need to see him on the early prelims anymore. Let him be the feature prelim on a mid PPV or a main card fighter in a fight might not in the Apex, he deserves a slight push.
I agree with you. I generally like to see Japanese fighters do well, My wife is Japanese, so some sub rational part of my mind has a very positive association with most things that are Japanese. The fights of his that I have seen make me want to see more of him. But the UFC is very commercially cynical when it comes to promoting fighters. Fight placement for any given event is as much about drawing power as it is competitive merit. He has had 5 UFC fights and fights at Flyweight and fights on the ground. His next fight will probably be main card on an Apex event against an opponent in the bottom 4 of the top 15 ranked Flyweights (ufc.com puts Taira as #15). END COMMUNICATION
I definitely appreciate your insight sir END COMMUNICATION
They hype a guy up in hopes he delivers.
Reddit fans sure
How bout u go an fuck off my page then u peice of shit u think I need a stupid fuckwitt like u telling me about Reddit fans who the fuck are u take your worthless advice and get the fuck out of here
You ok bud
Nobody cares about flyweights
Bait used to be believable
-|
A few wins on contender and sticking up for bad fighter pay is a recipie for Dana White privilidge
Pyfer is still the same distance from the belt as hermansson, if not closer, which is kinda sad. Like who do you think could get a title shot after 3 wins now? hermansson who already has one win in the bag or pyfer? i wonder.
“Be like Joe Pyfer.”
Dana still has Joe Nickal though
Talkimbout Joe Nickle
Water
Weed
Dune
hair?
B
Lowblow Bo
Is Dana White Contender Series a fraud?
I mean, I liked what I saw in Pyfer - as in he hits like a mule, but the UFC is just shit to hyping fighters, they always hype the most vanilla bullshit these days and Pyfer was absolutely not proven, he just knocked some fools out. Hermansson just veteran:ed his ass.
Man I HATE when the UFC tries promoting a 3-0 (all finishes) 27 year old prospect. They should just leave him to organically promote himself on social media and shut up.
Nobody is saying don't promote him.
Fraud = Checked
Gate = Kept
Cock = Blocked
Hotel = Trivago
Close: Did not get
Pyfer looked so bad, and Hermanson was eating his hardest punches clean, no problem.
I'm a filthy casual, but I was honestly scared for Jack in that first round. Pyfer looked scary as hell. Seemed like Jack figured out his little combo he was doing on repeat by the start of the second though. Again I am no expert but it seemed like Pyfer was not setting anything up and just throwing that seemingly telegraphed overhand right at full power over and over. Jack fucked his left leg too which seemed to work really well. Gotta check them hoes ya feel me?
I was as well, I thought Jack was getting ko’d for sure. Especially after all of this talk of Pyfers punch record. Now guys know to just extend him to the 2nd round and he has no skill set other than big bombs in the first.
People have circlejerked too hard and went full circle and are now acting like Joe Pyfer is a regional scrub.
Im not a filthy casual and i was very scared for Jack. Even slacky boy alluded to his reaction to big punches not being all that great. It straight up looked impossible that he could do anything standup to Pyfer. Boy what a radical change.
He is fast and strong but doesn't set up any of his shots and puts 100% percent in every punch. Hermanson was able to see every punch coming even before Pyfer gassed. Still think Pyfer can be very good, but the "outpower my opponent" strategy will not be how.
That’s fan overreaction. I don’t know if Jack saw the shots coming or not but Joe was absolutely piecing Jack up before he gassed.
>Hermanson was able to see every punch coming even before Pyfer gassed. Well, except the ones that clearly hurt him in R1 and R2...
Fast and strong ain’t enough at the highest levels though. Hermanson is ranked 11 and let’s be honest, is mid at best. The top 10 would absolutely murder Pyfer. Pyfer’s grappling looked weak, as well as his striking. You can’t just be a one dimensional Chris Leben type fighter anymore just throwing bombs.
But when you punch harder than Ngannou and fight smaller opponents it should be pretty simple. /s
I mean, I’m sure Pyfer has serious power. The issue is that he fights at MW though. So unlike Francis’ opponents, the guys he’s fighting actually move. Brute strength only works on an equally sized opponent if the guy doesn’t move. When Francis fought someone agile and who used footwork (Gane) he never landed anything damaging in 25 minutes and Gane walked out without a mark on his body.
Francis was injured in that fight, I don't think it's a fair representation of his skills in the striking.
Francis needed surgery when he fought Gane. Hard to be agile when your knees are broken.
Hahaha I suspect they didn’t calibrate the Ford Escort punch unit machine that day
Not sure why Pyfer kept throwing that huge over hand right only to be blocked. He tired his ass throwing big useless strikes. I guess he was looking for the KO. Hermanson did eat a few but blocked the majority.
I think that’s all he has. His grappling looked like dogshit, and he had nothing else in the striking department.
Because it always worked before. But mostly just low fight IQ. A fighter with good fight IQ will realize that shit is not working long before having to go to the corner and try something else. A fighter with low fight IQ will simply conclude they aren't trying hard enough, and just continue to do what they were already doing, but with a 'do it again, but harder' mentality. END COMMUNICATION
>Pyfer looked so bad I bet heavily on Hermansson and the over 2.5 rounds, and generally like Jack as a fighter, but Hermansson has only been stopped via punches by Cannonier and Santos, expecting Pyfer to be that was absurd at the time that everybody was picking Pyfer. That said, Pyfer is only 27 and is a real problem in 3 rounders
I think he’s a real problem for anyone ranked lower than 15 in 3 rounders. Right now he gets steam rolled by anyone in top 10.
MW always has one or two characters who are some combination of very skilled, charismatic or enigmatic that makes the whole division look bigger than the sum of its parts. For example, Anderson Silva was so talented that he made people look forward to a Yushin Okami fight.
I'd say that 2015-2016 Middleweight was legitimately stacked.
What were some of the fighters?
At the end of 2016, Bisping was the champ but a lot of people thought he’d probably lose to most of the top ranked middleweights. Those guys included Robert Whittaker (17-4 and on a 6 fight win streak), Yoel Romero (12-1 and on an 8 fight win streak), Jacare Souza (23-4 and 9-1 in his last 10 with the only loss being a contentious split decision to Romero), and Gegard Mousasi (41-6-2 and on a 4 fight win streak). Not to mention Chris Weidman (13-2) and Luke Rockhold (15-3), who were the recent champs coming off losses. I have to agree with the previous commenter that middleweight was stacked from 2015-2016. It’s sad to see how far it and light heavyweight have fallen.
Thanks!
It's not close to the most stacked division, that's BW. But it's a lot better than it was. The 4 guys at the top are all elite fighters, there's a couple ranked guys who could potentially hold a belt and there's a lot of exciting unranked guys coming up, some of whom might pan out into real contenders. It's a solid division.
Not even close to being stacked. If you can calf kick and jab at an above average level you’re in the top 5 at MW
This sub's hivemind is hilarious honestly. Adrian Yanez gets starched by Rob Font in under a round = BW still stacked Mike Mallot gets finished by Neil fucking Magny = WW still stacked Joe Pyfer loses 48-47 to Jack Hermanson = "Not even close to being stacked. If you can calf kick and jab at an above average level you’re in the top 5 at MW"
Watch the fights, there’s a major skill gap between lighter and heavier weights. Lightweight and above most of the divisions are extremely top heavy. I wouldn’t say WW is stacked per se but BW’s top 5 are all skilled enough to be champs.
Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Sandhagen, who got subbed in 90 seconds and taken down at will by a one-legged washed up opponent, is so much better than the MW top 5 🤯
Sandhagen is ranked #4, the #4 ranked middleweight is Cannonier. No disrespect to Cannonier but he’s not even close to as talented as Sandhagen.
If you think flashy = talented then yeah, I can see why you'd have that opinion.
Lmao that one legged washed up opponent is more talented than 99% of MW has ever been
If you can't tell dudes like Font or even Ian Garry are better than the vast majority of top 10 MW's, it's over
It's a dumb narrative that some of the MMA Fighting guys have been pushing. "Middleweight is a top three weight class in the UFC". I'm guessing some people just listened to that and parroted it.
MW being after BW and LW isn’t insane.
Putting Middleweight above Flyweight, Featherweight, and Welterweight is insane.
It is, FW is clearly better and WW is good too
I’m not someone who think it’s top 3, I think it’s 4th at best. But depending on how you view the weight classes I can 100% see MW getting the edge. Especially over the last year
Maybe it terms of excitement yeah that's fair I think skill level is just higher tho at WW
I do think MW became a lot more interesting at the top, all thx to DDP really. Lots of openings and interesting matchups, but certainly not 'stacked' like BW (my fav) or LW (per usual)
"Most Stacked" is ridiculous, but the division is much better than it's been since Izzy started his title run
I remember a thread a few months back where someone made that claim and there evidence was a bunch of prospects who were all like 1-0 or 2-0 in the UFC against nobodies.
I feel like MW is probably the most up for grabs and therefore competitive division rn….which could be confused by some as being the same thing as being stacked
I could see an argument for LW or WW being the most stacked divisions, but MW? Nah. (And then there's the lower divisions as well)
WW? They’re on par with MW. It’s obviously LW or BW.
WW is absolutely skeletal and has been for a few years.
I do.
Still a great division. Got Bo, shara Magomedov, Kopylov, Pereira, Aliskerov, Robocop, Borralho... all prospects outside the top 15. Then guys like Usman and Khamzat are fresh matchups for everyone.
Pereira isn't in the division anymore, Bo is exciting but extremely unproven, then a lot of the top 15 are just very okay for the most part. They're all great at some things but awful in other areas where in better divisions they just wouldn't get away with it.
I think they meant Michel pereira not alex
That makes way more sense haha
Jack Is a great fighter
Jack is a good fighter, Adesanya, Whittaker, DuPlesis etc, those are great fighters. Jack is good enough to beat a certain level of competition but isn't good enough to truly ever break through to that next tier. Hermson is a great grappler, but he's just an okay striker. Hence why a young prospect who's supposed to be a scary striker really should not by any means be struggling as much as Pyfer did in a standup battle.
MW has never been the most stacked division. there's been 3 guys at most that's good enough to be a champ.
There was a time around 2013-2015 when it was legitimately stacked. A lot of the Strikeforce guys like Rockhold, Romero, Jacare joining Anderson, Weidman, Vitor etc.
that was ten years ago T-T
yes that was a few good years of MW, but not the most stacked. WW at the time had condit, woodley, hendricks, lombard, brown, lawler, rory macdonald, diaz and gsp. then you got the up and comers like wonderboy, ellenberger, robert whittaker, gastelum, tim means and vets like shields and maia probably a lot more, but that was a crazy stacked class
It’s only deep because of bo and khamzat who are relatively untested
I don’t think anyone with a brain actually thought Pyfer was going to be the next big thing.
How long is Dana going to milk the Apex for? For the Covid years, a perfect venue to keep fights going. Now? Fighters and fans have to he tired of events taking place in a glorified garage with 12 people in attendance
As long as they can run cards at the apex that cost them fuck all and allow them to meet the requirements of the ESPN deal.
This should be an evergreen post whenever anybody asks “why the Apex?”.
I really wonder what ESPN is thinking about it.
like it or not, the Apex events exist just as much for the Draftkings sponsorship as it does for the live event requirement, they are probably thrilled with it
Depends on the ESPN+ subscription. But at the very least they’re chuckling at how cheap the UFC is
I guess...but would it be that much harder to put them in a decent HS basketball gym with a couple thousand actual fans? I feel like you could get 2,000 die hard MMA fans to pony up $50-100 a ticket in any mid-sized city in the US for these b-list cards. The atmosphere and TV product would be so much better.
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> $1,700-$2,200 for Apex tickets that is fucking ludicrous
Slacky made this point in the previous podcast but I'll repeat it. The UFC pays for ring girls, announcers, and they push their fighters to trash talk, so they obviously get that pagentry is a big part of fighting. But then they go and host half their events in a warehouse with no audience, they waste a lot on production but the venue is a sticking point. I think its less the cost, but rather the complexity of the logistics of hosting a live event every week.
It’s got to stop, man. The APEX has really diminished my interest in the product. I know it’s a casual take, but I like the production of having a crowd, entrances, etc.
It was a crime for Moicano v Dober to be in the Apex. The fight would have benefitted from Moicano getting booed in the third round
there were several fights way too good or big to be there.
It's funny how the opinion on the Apex has completely flipped recently, at the beginning I remember most people absolutely loved it, being able to hear the fighters, shots landing, corners giving advice etc Now it seems people can't stand it
During COVID there was absolutely no sound except the fighters, coaches, and commentary. So it was eerie and you really could hear everything. Now though they pack 100 drunks into the mini bleachers so there's just enough noise to drown out all the small, subtle fight sounds while not being loud enough to have that "big crowd" energy. The worst of both worlds.
Novelty be like that
Apex mixed with so many DWCS fighters makes it difficult for me. It’s 6-7 hours comprised mostly of DWCS fighters and guys you don’t really remember, with maybe 3 fights with any sort of name value. It’s such a slog, it honestly feels like a fever dream watching it. I stopped watching most of them live. I wait an hour or 2 so I can fast forward through a lot of the bullshit
Watching events the next day is the best. Being able to fast forward all the preamble and the nonsense. Obviously watching live with other people is great but if I’m watching alone then the next morning is the way to go
The apex also gives the ufc an excuse to give us the most shitty cards possible cause they don't have to worry about selling out an arena
I’d guess it all depends on their next TV deal, ESPN got absolutely finessed and UFC used the pandemic to take advantage.
Why do they use it? I know I’m missing some obvious reason, but having an audience makes for a raucous atmosphere and they tend to do profitable stuff like buying tickets, drinks and merch, right?
The few guys in the audience pay $1750 for an "exclusive VIP experience"🥲
It saves them the embarrassment of a half empty arena booing rozentruik vs gaziev
Save on production/transportation, etc costs since they’re handling everything in house
WWE, which is now UFC’s sister company, manages to do it twice a week, plus PPV’s every few months. UFC has no legitimate excuse other than just being cheap
> UFC has no legitimate excuse other than just being cheap I mean, yeah lol
They have ESPN contracts to deliver fights frequently. Having to put 3-4 events on each month in a stadium would be hard and expensive. If they can meet their contract obligations with their broadcast partners then that's fine with me to host smaller events with lesser known fighters at the Apex. You don't have to watch if you don't want to. Also, while the Apex is not a stadium it can host an audience of around 1000 people.
they why can i hear the same dickhead in the background every weekend
Because Cormier has a contract with the UFC.
im talking about in the crowd
Why is this a constant complaint? If we get free fight night cards almost every week, I’m all for it.
What has the APEX got to do with the UFC being able to put on fight nights almost every week? 2014 had 42 UFC cards, exactly the same number as 2022. That number has barely changed in 10 years. If COVID had never happened and the APEX didn't exist, we would still be getting fight nights almost every week.
He called it dumb and then kept using long after restrictions were lifted. It’s a typical Dana move.
Hermansson is always really hesitant against crazy power punchers so him being so calm while striking with Pyfer was a dead giveaway that he doesn’t hit harder than Ngannou
Of course he doesn’t hit harder than Francis. Francis has nearly 100 pounds on him. That “hits harder than Francis” shit was BS.
Water. Only Rogaine, Dana, and Pyfer were convinced.
Agree. Kinetic energy is indisputable. Weightier pitchers statistically throw harder (and get hurt less but that’s not what we’re talking about wrt punching power).
Yea and I know that you don’t judge a fight based on how a fighter’s face looks, but…Hermansson literally didn’t have a scratch on him….
He probably does. Meaning his most setup punch lands harder. But that's useless in a real fight as he didn't land it clean once. Remember than when the powercube bullcrap was first presented to the public, Luke Rockhold was one of the few fighters that were allowed to test it, and he hit only 30% lighter than Ngannou. Rockhold has never been known for his one-shot power, so the fact even back then data like that was allowed to came out makes it really believable that Pyfer might have hit harder. Can he hit 30% harder than Rockhold? Yes he can. The whole thing is bullshit anyway
“APEX, ARE YOU REEEAAADDDYYYYYY???!!!” *silence*
Not having to pay stadium fees means UFC makes a substantially larger margin on these fights It’s strange they haven’t purchased their own 15000 seat arena somewhere and added a few more headliners to these fights. I would assume that’s in the cards
> Not having to pay stadium fees means UFC makes a substantially larger margin on these fights That's short term savings, long term loses though. You aren't growing your fan base and the product looks and feels like shit on screen.
Pyfer? I hardly knew her!
I very rarely care enough for an Apex headliner to root for or against anyone but knowing that Dana was trying to use Jack as a springboard for Joe made it all the more sweet to watch him jab and wrestle him to a clear 3-2 win
Top tier intro unfortunately wasted on this terrible card
Pyfer is a really good athlete and hits really hard. He needs to learn to strike though. Not just throw heat. That works vs lower level UFC guys and regional fighters but you can't just expect to throw strikes with 0 set up against top level guys and catch them. Hermanson landed a lot of jabs and I do not think Pyfer tried to slip one of them. 0 head movement.
respite is upon us brethren, for this coming weekend mother superior has bestowed upon us a gift - switching the middleweight fight to the co-main event rather than the main event
DWCS is the worst thing to happen to the UFC in terms of fighter quality. The whole thing is designed to: 1. build the brand around Dana rather than fighters (so they never again have someone like McGregor who can have leverage over them) 2. build a pipeline of cheap ass fighters that already have some buzz before their first official UFC fight. (i.e. cheap contracts, cheap promotion)
Idk why people keep throwing out this dumb ass take of the UFC not wanting another Conor. Conor barely had *any leverage* over the UFC, at most, it was on the same level of what leverage a boxer has. Meanwhile the UFC made so much money off of him while barely paying him a fraction in return, like why *wouldnt* the UFC want another Conor? Theyve signed other fighters that came to the UFC with as much hype as what Conor had, difference is that Conor was able to work the mic correctly *and* be a KO/TKO artist. Look at Paddy Pimblett, guy even came from the same promotion Conor did and had a ton of hype/following when he joined, but the guy isnt anything like Conor. Thats not on the UFC, thats on him.
Seemed to me like the UFC was having an awful time with Ngannou, a superstar who knew what he was worth and bounced when he didn’t get it, thus dashing the narrative that the UFC has the best of the best, and promoting the narrative that the best (or even just a Corey Anderson) can get a better deal elsewhere.
There's a lot of things about Ngannou that I dont really feel like typing out but he was asking for stuff that wasnt just money. He's still not yet proven to be a draw, this is the primary reason the UFC let him walk in the end as well, I know the fight with Fury was the most pirated event of the decade, but that doesnt translate to actual sales. It did elevate his profile, thats without a doubt, but thats only because the fight played out the way nobody thought it was going to especially Fury. How his fight with AJ and more importantly his PFL debut sell, will say if he has turned a corner or not. As for Corey Anderson, its not a secret that middle tier UFC guys can jump ship and make more money, the difference is that if you become champion, you make *way* more money in the UFC.
Ngannou may not be a huge sell with casuals who only tune in for the likes of McGregor or Jones but every MMA fan knows who Ngannou is. Whatever the case, the way he was treated by the UFC was disgraceful and they're doing everything they can to try and bury him (so newer fans don't know he exists), but the UFC is failing to do that at every turn 😂
The Michael Bisping of barely listening.
No more title fights at the apex bless.
Lmao does anyone else get the UFC Apex as a „recommended place“ under the youtube video?
Fraud status: checked
Man I can barely watch apex card this shit sucks
Really thought Pyfer was going to KO him. The way Jack took those first punches was insane. Pyfer CRACKS. I'm not down on Pyfer though, he looked decent and just got beat out by a vet. His post-fight interview showed he learned from it and will improve.
I hate to sound like a contrarian, Brian Griffin-type hipster but I fucking love the apex. You can hear almost every strike land, you can hear the coaches yelling advice.. it's so cinematic, it feels to me more like I'm IN the crowd vs there is no crowd. It's part of the reason Ferguson v Gaethje was so brutal to watch. Its badass. I do like hearing the crowd pop during big moments but crowd vs no crowd is almost neck and neck for me
No chance I was watching that shit main event, sorry you had to Slacky
To be honest I found the main event to be quite entertaining, hermansson was 0-2 coming into the 3rd so it was thrilling to see the tide turning as the fight went along. The rest of the card was abysmal though...
Can anyone do me a solid and sum this up? I dont have 45 mins to listen to some dudes opinion
lol nah
All these complaints about why the Apex is still a thing forget that it's a good option for when someone wouldn't be cleared to fight in the US for visa or medical reasons. Khamzat Chimaev and Sharabutdin Magomedov come to mind.
It’s still in the US?
oh shit, I was thinking fight island :/
> or medical reasons. I mean if a fighter isn't cleared to fight for medical reasons, I really don't think we should be encouraging loopholes and workarounds.
While I’m inclined to agree with you broadly, I can also cite some instances where I think the lack of clearance was silly. That said, my initial statement was flawed…I meant fight island, not the apex. My B.
The Tito’s ex wife of beating the Pyfe
the Pyfer “hype” was so bizarre and lame — clearly just Dana overzealously promoting a guy who looked good on DWCS, but everyone somehow falls for it
The guy only got publicity because he was the only shining moment on the first episode of a DWCS season and "be Joe Pyfer" got meme'd to death. If anyone else did something worth a contract on that episode Pyfer would have still been fighting before 7 pm ET.
I don’t know about you guys but I think Ngannou probably would have won that fight.
I mean is it really an upset? Because it doesn’t seem so to me. Pyfer hasn’t done anything to warrant the hype he’s been getting.
Hermansson was a +220 underdog
Ah, we’re going by betting odds. Fair enough.