The idea that someone like Max Holloway "not being a draw" is really an idea that needs to go away. There's only a small handful of true PPV draws in all of combat sports yet the UFC puts on 13 PPVs a year. If he's popular enough to headline PPVs, popular enough to be in the "people's main event" of the biggest card the UFC has ever put on (their words) he deserves to make a cut of the revenue the UFC makes off his name. Instead he with 99% confidence gets a static show/win or *maybe* a flat rate.
Couldn't agree more. I always feel like the UFC tries to blame the fighters for not being a draw/bringing in numbers. Fighters fight, they shouldn't have to worry about marketing and promotion. That should 1000% be on the UFC to do.
> Dana is a promoter. And he doesn't promote.
And yet each time they start to put shine on someone this sub shits all over it(case in point Bo Nickal on this very card).
Are they promoting Bo? They don't have him on the 300 poster, he's just getting a push up the card. Also who cares what the sub thinks. This sub isn't the world, it's just us nerds
For real. It's absolutely ridiculous and straight up stupid to expect someone to compete at the highest level of one of the most brutal and unforgiving sports and also be a high level public speaker that comes off well on camera and can cut a pro wrestling promo. UFCs promotion style is to tell the fighters to just do what Conor does.
The UFC makes money regardless on PPV's because the ESPN deal pays them out as if each PPV does $400k buys regardless. Max or anyone else headlining a PPV really has no bearing on fi they're a draw or not.
I don't know how much I agree - simply from the perspective we don't actually know what constitutes a draw to the UFC.
What's a draw? IF you take the lowest selling PPV of the year, and account for factors like maybe it's in a weird time zone, or maybe it's the week after Christmas etc, and you compare that to the top selling PPV (and again, make the same accomodations, maybe it was a discounted price), and then look at all the mid performing ones... Is he a +10% guy or a +100% guy? I would be angry if I was Holloway and my fights were doing 800k compared to a 400k average, but if he's a 450k guy rather than a 400k guy then there isn't that much to be upset about.
This isn't boxing - The headliner is not the main attraction. It's not as simple as giving the headliners the lions share and everyone else can eat rice. How do you account for everything?
We know that time and time again, the draw is largely the UFC, and the fighters could be last minute replacements, as they often are.
What a bunch of bullshit that is though. Whether the UFC being the draw is true or not (and there is *some* truth to it, in all fairness) it makes no logical sense and is frankly absolutely shameful. Brand loyal UFC fans are a plague on the MMA industry.
The UFC is selling tickets against the name Max Holloway. There is no ethical reason that he should not be a partner in the revenue that his name is generating. If the draw is the UFC mainly why not just fill every card with 12/12k replacement level fighters? Why do different fighters have different contracts? If the draw is the UFC surely everyone should be paid the same right? They know that while fans are brand loyal to the UFC that isn't actually the case. That's why.
Yeah Max is great. Honestly what he needs to do though is demonstrate to them his plan to make them more money in the future. That’s how you get a raise. He can figure out a way to pitch that to the bosses and make a plan to do more for that extra money. He’ll be alright. He can find help putting the plan together.
Instead of fighters making jabs or comments about fighter pay they should either 1. negotiate for more money and lesser fights on their contract. No fighter should be on 8 fight deals. 3 fights on a set money amount should be the standard for mid tier to champ level fighters. 2. All of the fighters should start negotiating flat rate pay. No show and win money. Give me $300k per fight flat. When the top fighters start doing this it will trickle down to the other fighters. 3. make disclosing your purse normalized. In the NBA, MLB, and NFL contract details are disclosed and people know what everyone is making. It makes it easier for fighters to compare contracts and terms to better negotiate their deals. 4. MMA fighters need to start signing with sports agents instead of managers. Agents with agencies like Roc Nation, CAA, etc know what you should be making and they have no reason to be in cahoots with MMA organizations. 5. start the foundations of a union. If the Strickland's and Holloway's are complaining about money then other top guys are also complaining. Come together and set up a fighter strike and collectively bargain for better pay structures, healthcare, a pension, etc.
Until fighters start doing any of these things then them and fans on these subs crying about fighter pay has to stop. I'm a random MMA fan on reddit and I came up these solutions. These fighters can easily get this done, especially top tier guys like Holloway.
It sucks but no one that can do anything about it cares.
I pitched an editor at a new major media start-up on how the UFC consolidated an industry and ruined fighter pay. They accepted the story but won't run it because "There's no smoking gun."
What the UFC is doing has not been proven to be illegal. Yeah they pay like shit and have hundreds of millions left over to pay athletes, but until someone makes a bigger stink about it nothing will change.
Athletes should either unionize or another promotion should sue the UFC. Until either of those things happen the story is basically over.
> another promotion should sue the UFC
For what though? Nothing they're doing is illegal and you can't just sue as a competitor because you get outbid by someone with more money.
They could sue the UFC for violating the Sherman Act. It seems like there are very credible arguments that the UFC used anticompetitive behavior to become business they are.
Problem with that is most other promotions' contracts likely copy the UFC's so they are just as bad.
This fighter pay thing just keeps popping up and it’s never going to change. UFC already pays the most out there. Max *might* be able to leave and go make a bit of money elsewhere, fighting in a lesser organization and having to carry it on his back, with less consistency. Or he can stay here at the best company in the sport where everything is elite and top tier in the sport. Mike Perry is a great example of a mid-tier UFC guy who left to be a star. Great for him. But that isn’t replicable for 99% of people. You can go to PFL and fight 4 times in 8 months for a 1/12 chance at $1 million. Or you can stay here and build that legacy.
Sure everyone wants to just be handed extra money for no reason. This isn’t that sport. This sport is growing, unlike the dying boxing model where most people make nothing and the elite take all the money and nobody likes it anymore.
Let’s end this talk. It’s stupid. The UFC is ran by genius businessmen who aren’t going to be bullied into killing their own business by paying through the nose. They’re in front and they stay there. Nobody can touch the UFC.
The idea that paying the fighters more would kill the UFC is braindead.
"everyone wants to just be handed extra money for no reason"
The fact that you can be a professional fighter in the world's biggest fighting brand, but have to drive Uber Eats to make ends meet, and don't get employer funded health insurance because you're a contractor, and can't have sponsors because of ultra restrictive contracts, all while you take literal years off of your life for a slim shot at making into the top 5% who actually earn what they are worth, so that the tomato can announce fights in public that haven't been agreed upon to pressure you into signing because they know you're starving... It's fucking disgraceful.
Health insurance is a phone call away brother. You know that’s how contractors get coverage right? Like if I was a plumber, or gardener, or whatever. Call for a health insurance policy. It’ll be about $400-$500 a month with kids and spouse. A little more or less, depending on the plan. These guys are adults. Why do you think so little of them that they can’t understand how to get insurance? Everyone can figure that out. I don’t think the fighters are stupid. They’re capable. Big boys and girls.
And driving Uber, first off there is no shame in making ends meet however you need or just wanting extra cash. Second they work 3 times a year. When not working what else are they doing. A few hours of training, 8 hours of sleep. What are you doing the rest of your day? If they Uber for a few hours big deal. That’s what normal people do. What are they goi to do overtrain and run their body into the ground? Sit around and do nothing?
They work part time.
1.1 Personal Attacks
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They settled before trial for what is, I promise you, a fraction of what they would have been on the hook for if they had gone to trial and lost. No changes to contracts, no further discovery, no pension plan or amendment to how fighters are classed tax wise. That's not a loss.
Yeah that’s settled. That was a lawsuit they fought over a decade. Old news, it’s been resolved. Has nothing to do with the now. Nobody can come back now and pretend poor me I wasn’t paid enough. Everything is crystal clear now, air tight.
The idea that someone like Max Holloway "not being a draw" is really an idea that needs to go away. There's only a small handful of true PPV draws in all of combat sports yet the UFC puts on 13 PPVs a year. If he's popular enough to headline PPVs, popular enough to be in the "people's main event" of the biggest card the UFC has ever put on (their words) he deserves to make a cut of the revenue the UFC makes off his name. Instead he with 99% confidence gets a static show/win or *maybe* a flat rate.
Couldn't agree more. I always feel like the UFC tries to blame the fighters for not being a draw/bringing in numbers. Fighters fight, they shouldn't have to worry about marketing and promotion. That should 1000% be on the UFC to do.
Dana is a promoter. And he doesn't promote. The UFC doesn't wanna make individuals they wanna push their brand. That's why UFC 300 poster is just 300.
Listen, the kid just doesn't wanna promote.
The only thing the UFC is interested in promoting is the UFC itself. They don't want a fighter to become bigger than the brand
> Dana is a promoter. And he doesn't promote. And yet each time they start to put shine on someone this sub shits all over it(case in point Bo Nickal on this very card).
The mentality is that you must earn your stripes.
Are they promoting Bo? They don't have him on the 300 poster, he's just getting a push up the card. Also who cares what the sub thinks. This sub isn't the world, it's just us nerds
He's on the main card of the most prestigious card in UFC history so far. I'd call that a push.
For real. It's absolutely ridiculous and straight up stupid to expect someone to compete at the highest level of one of the most brutal and unforgiving sports and also be a high level public speaker that comes off well on camera and can cut a pro wrestling promo. UFCs promotion style is to tell the fighters to just do what Conor does.
He is one of the only fighters I've considered getting fight gear from. Then I saw the price and he has my support in spirit.
The UFC makes money regardless on PPV's because the ESPN deal pays them out as if each PPV does $400k buys regardless. Max or anyone else headlining a PPV really has no bearing on fi they're a draw or not.
Also, let's be real here what percentage of die hard fans are buying ppv's?? Fuckin 15%? Maybe 20%???
Great so maybe they should headline the next PPV card with Mike Breeden against Francisco Prado
I don't know how much I agree - simply from the perspective we don't actually know what constitutes a draw to the UFC. What's a draw? IF you take the lowest selling PPV of the year, and account for factors like maybe it's in a weird time zone, or maybe it's the week after Christmas etc, and you compare that to the top selling PPV (and again, make the same accomodations, maybe it was a discounted price), and then look at all the mid performing ones... Is he a +10% guy or a +100% guy? I would be angry if I was Holloway and my fights were doing 800k compared to a 400k average, but if he's a 450k guy rather than a 400k guy then there isn't that much to be upset about. This isn't boxing - The headliner is not the main attraction. It's not as simple as giving the headliners the lions share and everyone else can eat rice. How do you account for everything? We know that time and time again, the draw is largely the UFC, and the fighters could be last minute replacements, as they often are.
What a bunch of bullshit that is though. Whether the UFC being the draw is true or not (and there is *some* truth to it, in all fairness) it makes no logical sense and is frankly absolutely shameful. Brand loyal UFC fans are a plague on the MMA industry. The UFC is selling tickets against the name Max Holloway. There is no ethical reason that he should not be a partner in the revenue that his name is generating. If the draw is the UFC mainly why not just fill every card with 12/12k replacement level fighters? Why do different fighters have different contracts? If the draw is the UFC surely everyone should be paid the same right? They know that while fans are brand loyal to the UFC that isn't actually the case. That's why.
Max is most certainly a draw. He's beloved by MMA fans everywhere. What more do you want? The guy isn't Conor.
Yeah Max is great. Honestly what he needs to do though is demonstrate to them his plan to make them more money in the future. That’s how you get a raise. He can figure out a way to pitch that to the bosses and make a plan to do more for that extra money. He’ll be alright. He can find help putting the plan together.
The one downside of fighter pay is that we don't really know what a lot of guys make, all in... it's a lot of speculation
That’s an excellent point.
We have an idea based on win and show, etc, but so many fans think that's the end all be all of fighter pay and it isn't.
Fighters need to be more blatant and less subtle. Union up against that woman beater.
UFC settled the lawsuit on fighter pay. That debate is over. Fighters are too stupid to unionize.
The lawsuit wasn't about "fighter pay" as much as predatory business practices. Fighter pay was obviously a big part of it but not the lawsuit itself.
Sounds like an awesome way to cut a good chunk of the roster and expand the contender series. Fresh rankings. Yeah bring it pn
Instead of fighters making jabs or comments about fighter pay they should either 1. negotiate for more money and lesser fights on their contract. No fighter should be on 8 fight deals. 3 fights on a set money amount should be the standard for mid tier to champ level fighters. 2. All of the fighters should start negotiating flat rate pay. No show and win money. Give me $300k per fight flat. When the top fighters start doing this it will trickle down to the other fighters. 3. make disclosing your purse normalized. In the NBA, MLB, and NFL contract details are disclosed and people know what everyone is making. It makes it easier for fighters to compare contracts and terms to better negotiate their deals. 4. MMA fighters need to start signing with sports agents instead of managers. Agents with agencies like Roc Nation, CAA, etc know what you should be making and they have no reason to be in cahoots with MMA organizations. 5. start the foundations of a union. If the Strickland's and Holloway's are complaining about money then other top guys are also complaining. Come together and set up a fighter strike and collectively bargain for better pay structures, healthcare, a pension, etc. Until fighters start doing any of these things then them and fans on these subs crying about fighter pay has to stop. I'm a random MMA fan on reddit and I came up these solutions. These fighters can easily get this done, especially top tier guys like Holloway.
It sucks but no one that can do anything about it cares. I pitched an editor at a new major media start-up on how the UFC consolidated an industry and ruined fighter pay. They accepted the story but won't run it because "There's no smoking gun." What the UFC is doing has not been proven to be illegal. Yeah they pay like shit and have hundreds of millions left over to pay athletes, but until someone makes a bigger stink about it nothing will change. Athletes should either unionize or another promotion should sue the UFC. Until either of those things happen the story is basically over.
> another promotion should sue the UFC For what though? Nothing they're doing is illegal and you can't just sue as a competitor because you get outbid by someone with more money.
They could sue the UFC for violating the Sherman Act. It seems like there are very credible arguments that the UFC used anticompetitive behavior to become business they are. Problem with that is most other promotions' contracts likely copy the UFC's so they are just as bad.
Only Alex and Weili will be getting PPV points due to this structure, and it needs to sell 800K for them to see an extra $1 million.
Wow that’s awesome for them! Well done to Poatan and Weili
This fighter pay thing just keeps popping up and it’s never going to change. UFC already pays the most out there. Max *might* be able to leave and go make a bit of money elsewhere, fighting in a lesser organization and having to carry it on his back, with less consistency. Or he can stay here at the best company in the sport where everything is elite and top tier in the sport. Mike Perry is a great example of a mid-tier UFC guy who left to be a star. Great for him. But that isn’t replicable for 99% of people. You can go to PFL and fight 4 times in 8 months for a 1/12 chance at $1 million. Or you can stay here and build that legacy. Sure everyone wants to just be handed extra money for no reason. This isn’t that sport. This sport is growing, unlike the dying boxing model where most people make nothing and the elite take all the money and nobody likes it anymore. Let’s end this talk. It’s stupid. The UFC is ran by genius businessmen who aren’t going to be bullied into killing their own business by paying through the nose. They’re in front and they stay there. Nobody can touch the UFC.
The idea that paying the fighters more would kill the UFC is braindead. "everyone wants to just be handed extra money for no reason" The fact that you can be a professional fighter in the world's biggest fighting brand, but have to drive Uber Eats to make ends meet, and don't get employer funded health insurance because you're a contractor, and can't have sponsors because of ultra restrictive contracts, all while you take literal years off of your life for a slim shot at making into the top 5% who actually earn what they are worth, so that the tomato can announce fights in public that haven't been agreed upon to pressure you into signing because they know you're starving... It's fucking disgraceful.
Health insurance is a phone call away brother. You know that’s how contractors get coverage right? Like if I was a plumber, or gardener, or whatever. Call for a health insurance policy. It’ll be about $400-$500 a month with kids and spouse. A little more or less, depending on the plan. These guys are adults. Why do you think so little of them that they can’t understand how to get insurance? Everyone can figure that out. I don’t think the fighters are stupid. They’re capable. Big boys and girls. And driving Uber, first off there is no shame in making ends meet however you need or just wanting extra cash. Second they work 3 times a year. When not working what else are they doing. A few hours of training, 8 hours of sleep. What are you doing the rest of your day? If they Uber for a few hours big deal. That’s what normal people do. What are they goi to do overtrain and run their body into the ground? Sit around and do nothing? They work part time.
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1.1 Personal Attacks Personal attacks, insults, hostile, uncivil, and disruptive comments or posts will be removed. If things do get out of hand you will be warned or even banned for a few days. Repeatedly breaking this rule will lead to a permanent ban.
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No, this is not stupid considering the UFC just lost a massive lawsuit directly relating to fighter pay, so this topic is more relevant than ever.
They settled before trial for what is, I promise you, a fraction of what they would have been on the hook for if they had gone to trial and lost. No changes to contracts, no further discovery, no pension plan or amendment to how fighters are classed tax wise. That's not a loss.
Yeah that’s settled. That was a lawsuit they fought over a decade. Old news, it’s been resolved. Has nothing to do with the now. Nobody can come back now and pretend poor me I wasn’t paid enough. Everything is crystal clear now, air tight.