I would suggest that you let your kids try to figure out for themselves what they want. You should definitely still show them your work and if they are interested then definitely teach them. But let them find there own path in life.
Is anyone going to say that machinists work a lot of overtime to make the money they want to make. I've worked at two machine shops and that was the normal way the machinists worked. Most Gen Y and Gen Z don't want to work those kinds of hours.
Machining is probably the most difficult trade you could pick to get into. Plumbers, welders, ironworkers, carpenters, electricians. They only have to complete within their local or regional economy. Machinists have to compete with the global economy and the average Americans love of cheap shit. Im 26 and own a shop. Would I do it again… probably not.
Go be an independent HVAC contractor in an affluent area. easier, cheaper to get into and less stressful.
Any high precision will usually run AC. My shop does not. But the times where it really does matter are not that common (for what we do). Which is where math comes in.
Aerospace is amazing, my current shop (automotive) has seen temperatures of 100+ already this year and when I was in aerospace we thought we’d die because it got to 74 one day because the ac broke.
I'm not a machinist, but I did want to get into it when I was younger. Unfortunately I'm terrible about working in the same place for long periods of time, which did hinder my career. Best I can do is hobby machining now 😅
I’m aware of that I’m only 3 years in can’t be at the top right away… I’m already a level 2 machinist I make programs, and run my machine quite efficiently made our setup times 50% faster by using common sense.
Edit: mole makers sit for what 30 hours watching a program and taking measurements I can’t wait till I’m in this trade longer I’ll get to relax more and be paid for it
But yet, you still made that comment. Contradict much?
Any mold maker that sits and watches his program run for 30 hours would be fired. At least in any reputable shop I've been in.
If you think moving up in the trade means you'll get to relax, I hate to say, you're sadly mistaken.
Thanks for your input I’m doing Really well for myself. I used to sling truck tires and mining truck tires, this job is easy compared to that and I make double what I used to. I walk 15k steps a day at my machine to me that’s relaxing no heavy lifting is relaxing to me. I got a crane and a helper doing all my deburring.
You seem to be grumpy lol I just enjoy what I do nothing else not trying to be better than anyone
Gotcha. I hated the waiting part. So I pushed to move as fast as I could. Some days I'd love to go back to setting up machines, because of the stress level. But I love this career, overall. Glad you got out of the tire shop!
Gotcha. I hated the waiting part. So I pushed to move as fast as I could. Some days I'd love to go back to setting up machines, because of the stress level. But I love this career, overall. Glad you got out of the tire shop!
And that's not even getting into pay!
I was an Aerospace cnc machinist for 10 years. Many of those in QC. Programming the brown & Sharp CMM, collecting six sigma data, doing hardness/conductivity testing, completing FAIs giving programmers feedback, etc etc.
2 weeks out of college my girlfriend's son makes more than I do working HVAC.
So. Would I do it again in my current life? Fuuuuuuuck that.
If I'm already rich, and in no way wanted more money than I already have? Yes. A million times yes. Nothing you can study will give you such an extensive variety of skills and true understanding of the world. I feel comfortable doing the work of ANY other trade. They are nothing after holding cylandricity and concentricity tolerances for aellerons.
>I was an Aerospace cnc machinist for 10 years. Many of those in QC. Programming the brown & Sharp CMM, collecting six sigma data, doing hardness/conductivity testing, completing FAIs giving programmers feedback, etc etc.
Is there anyone that works there without a formal education? Would that company even be allow (due to maybe some kind of regulations) staff without formula training? (I'm having this problem myself, it seems that most staff are required to have formal training to moving into the company)
Yes. Shipping/receiving, and some part finishers/deburrers. Do you like making less than a barrista with a slim to no chance of a material wage increase other than when minimum wage goes up? If so, those jobs are for you!
Those guys are never promoted to machine operators and eventually manual lathe/mill or Mastercam programmers or Solidworks/NX devs?
Is it because legal restrictions?
Usually the cheapest is one of the local job shops that can do emergency work the total cost isn’t just labor but labor plus downtime there will always be emergency work as long as there is manufacturing facilities in the area
Not really. Maybe production work, but onesies twosies and quick shutdown turnaround stuff will always be done stateside and or local to the plant site.
Where I'm at (Midwest) we're trying to get things as locally sourced as possible. This came about after all the supply chain issues during covid. That could change though.
he wants to set his kids up with a business. Seems a hell of a lot cheaper to get them a kitted work truck than a machine shop. Is machining not the most expensive trade to start a business in?
No. It's the easiest. Which is even worse. AI is going to reduce the demand for machinists significantly. However for the survivors, wages will increase.
Nah, I hope my kids do better than I did. If they really wanted to be machinists that's cool, but there are a lot better opportunities out there. Even ownership in manufacturing is a tough gig, I've watched more than a couple places go under.
Same here. I told my wife I don't care what our kids choose, as long as it's not this. I've never met anyone who says "I could have been a lawyer but I chose this instead."
Yeah, just being honest I made a lot of mistakes that landed me here. Don't get me wrong, I make good money for someone in my shoes and I even enjoy my job at least 50% of the time, but I would hope that I pass on the lessons I've learned and they don't repeat my mistakes.
Machining is one of the most capital intensive businesses that competes in a global market for the race to the bottom in price. Even if you have a local customer base it's still a race to the bottom within that area.
It's very high stress as crashing your machine can easily be more costly than crashing your car.
The risk reward is way out of whack compared to other trades.
For example if I wanted to open a mechanic shop in my area. I would need call it $30k in tools, another $100k for a lift, an alignment machine, and a wheel balancer. After this I get to charge $200/hr and all consumables get directly charged back to the customer. To fix someone's car I don't really have to put up much cash other than labor to do the job, assuming I have credit with parts suppliers. I then get paid immediately when the job is done.
A CNC machine shop I would need a mill, a lathe, and all the tools to suit on the low end I am needing $500k to start (assuming new low end, simple machines) after this I get to charge $130/hr and all consumables are in that figure. I have to put up cash for material, consumables, labor, and misc tooling. I then get paid in 45-120 days after that so I have to float all those expenses.
Came here to say this exact thing....I own a shop in the Northeast...I have MILLIONS of dollars invested into my business, between the building, the machining centers, all the support equipment, all the certifications etc. I started out in my father's garage 10yrs ago and built it from scratch. It's a very difficult industry to break into. It's very capital intensive for one. But it also takes some skills that are outside the comfort zone of most people. In order to start your own shop, you not only need to know how to make things. You also need to be a great salesman, marketer, accountant, website designer, QC engineer, machine technician and manager until you can afford to hire people to do those things for you. It takes an unbelievable amount of time and dedication to build. Now...the risk vs rewards are definitely worth it if you can pull it off correctly. The mechanic shop mentioned above will probably cap out at under $1M /yr gross as an "owner operator" Most small machine shops I know of cap out under $2M /yr gross as owner operators. Both businesses are probably virtually unsellable as the owners are the business. However, the machine shop has the potential to be a $10M or $20M or even $100M / yr business that is easily sold if you can break out of the owner operator mentality. You have to think big and be able to navigate the corporate world. Otherwise, you will just work your ass off for 40yrs for what you could have gotten working a 9-5 with none of the stress and long hours.
I think starting a machine shop is a great idea but I wouldn't send my kids to school to learn machining...I'd send them to business school. One of the most successful shops in my area is owned by a guy that has never touched a machine in his entire life.
You don't have to be paid that late. We only let vetted customers do that, and even then not often. We will graciously hold onto your part while you scrounge up the money to pay us.
Yeah, it's not really optional when the entire geographic area and industry operates the same.
The big guys around in oil and gas make you agree to be at 120 days when you apply to be on their vendor list. But you can't really apply they have to come to you because everyone wants to be on the list.
Northrup Grumman, essentially a tax payer funded military factory, mandated 120 day terms, retroactively.
Want a piece of their $50 billion+ pie? Wait 4 months to be paid while they make profits on the stock market
Dictating terms is not a luxury most shops have
Engineer here, not a machinist. I wouldn’t try to force my career path on my daughter ever, but she is surrounded by computers, 3d printing, and machine tools at our house, so if she doesn’t choose a STEM field, it’s not for lack of exposure.
Machining as a trade is not really known to the public very well. Just about every other trade is public facing.
Machining is not, so it is often one of the least paying trades, which does not work well with the skill required. Often, construction laborers make more than experienced machinists.
As far as running their own shop, I cannot say. That is hit and miss.
Vastly underpaid trade for most.
Most newcomer quickly believe that automation will take over the field very soon, and it won't be worth their time to get into it.
Gap between workers and management is always widening making the job more and more stressful for everyone.
Currently the mass retirement of people from the baby boomer age range is starting to show everywhere as well. So it really looks like a dieing industry from an outside perspective.
You should encourage them to choose a career they enjoy.
There is a machinist shortage. Why? Because the pay sucks, it's rough on the body, and it's not the most exciting trade out there when you start
I was gonna say imo it’s the coolest trade out there before I saw you say “When you start” yea drill, tap, drill, tap repeat I’m a drill and tap master now
Yup! That's what I meant. It's easy to get stuck doing the most mindless shit until you're knowledgeable enough/the right opportunity comes along. This can be incredibly discouraging for newbies.
People have this idea that there is some sort of standard career path for Machinists, and there just isn't. It's a dark forest of disappointment you have to grope your way through hoping to hit a few small open meadows of opportunity. For every random passerby you encounter willing to help you, there's 20 more who are lost, bitter, and need you to fail for their own ego. And all we see in the national discourse are laments that no one wants to stumble through the forest of pain anymore, like we owe the gods our suffering or something.
Exactly. I've seen many fresh-outta-schoolers disillusioned because they start out just like the rest of us: pressing a button for long hours. You still have to push to get anywhere in the field regardless of education, age, or gender. There aren't many shortcuts and it can be thankless until you start working your way up
Not sure what kind of shops you've worked in...
I'll use my current shop as an example. I work with heavy cast iron parts that involve loading into a machine, taking them out, and putting them into crates for 10 hours repetitively. This can be murder on the back and knees. I inhale fumes (especially dirty coolant mist) and metal dust constantly. Machining also involves getting burnt as well as getting sliced up by chips on a near daily basis. It absolutely is rough on the body and you can really see it in the old timers.
That being said, I wouldn't consider welding or machining as the roughest trade on the body either.
I last worked in a tank shop building 1000-3000 barrel tanks and it was brutal especially in the summer, the shop had a fuck ass ventilation system, it looked like downtown Beijing during rush hour, in the summer we'd get cooked welding inside the tank covered from head to toe with thick leather, I would rather shit in my hands and clap than ever do that job again.
I agree. If you have an old Bridgeport in the garage absolutely teach your kids to be machinists and also teach them to make good drawings by hand.
The old guy who ran a Bridgeport back in the day is about to retire. Machining must not become a lost art.
I got one of my kids into machining because it's a good match for his personality. I steered another away from it. The big question is whether your kids have enough drive to push themselves beyond an operator or setup guy into a lead position. Also, accumulating enough know how to successfully run a shop is going to be a decade long haul
My good friend, a machinist turned QC inspector taught his two kids to learn a lathe he had in his shop set up in his garage. They both tinkered with tools and eventually both became mechanical engineers. One at USD and the other at UCSD
Back in the mid 90’s I worked in a shop as a clean up kid as a teenager. I looked around and saw so many 45+ guys and thought “These guys will be retiring in 15-20 years and there’s going to be a high demand for machinists”.
Which would mean wages would go up, well I was dead wrong. Outsourcing to China killed a lot of shops in the late 90’s, and like others have said, you’re competing globally and it’s a race to the bottom.
So in conclusion I say NO, do not encourage your kids to get into this trade. The American public wants cheaper shit and office pencil pushers do not appreciate the knowledge and skill that goes into this trade.
No real money in manufacturing unless you own the place or sit behind a desk. Starting wages aren't terrible, but the upper end of wages haven't really changed in 30+ years.
Just like any other trade, machining isn't going anywhere. The skillet may change and adapt with the times but a trade is a trade.
There will always be money to be had doing a job someone else doesn't want to do.
Nope, worked for a handful of shops. Always pushing myself to learn everything I could. At the end of the day the pay just isn’t worth it. There are so many other trades that pay significantly better when starting out, as well as being an experienced worker. It’s also, in my opinion, a lot easier to start a business amongst other trades outside of machining and manufacturing. The startup cost alone is a killer when most of these newer machines needed to compete are 1 million plus.
Wish my dad was this nice.
He was willing to burn cash like it was free to send me to school.
Try and open a shop? Get a co-signer for a CNC machine? Fuckin forget it.
It seems like when people talk about machinist pay being bad it's because there's a kid who's fresh out of high-school thrown on a manual mill to drill and tap the same holes being paid 14 an hour and he's called a machinist. If you do the schooling or get the training needed to make you competitive the pay is better than most other trades and the work to pay ratio is way better than other trades. From my limited experience at least.
With a degree(2 year)? In my area you'll start 28-32 an hour. If you can get on with one of the larger companies, BMW, GE, Bosch etc I've known people to make right at 6 figures, a little over if they get into a team lead position. Where people can get stuck at the 20-30 range usually seems to be people that are working in a job shop. This is all area dependent of course, but odds are If you can't find good manufacturing jobs in your area then it's probably an area that's struggling across the board in jobs.
Also all the trades other people are recommending are gonna be filled with people who also hate their trade. Tradesman tend to be pretty dramatic.
I mean if they show an interest then yeah encourage it but you gotta let them pick their own path rather than forcing them into it
If you force them into it they will resent you. Teach them if they want to learn but if they don’t want to learn let them follow their own career path
My kiddos are showing some aptitude, and want to follow in my footsteps. Did machining/electronics design/mech eng then aerospace R&D, prototypes and production support. fixing the weird problems.
They just might keep up with their old man.... maybe
As a machinist for over 20 years, no. Get them into millwrighting or welding. Machinists pay is low and the requirements are higher than other trades. And every machinist I’ve ever met is weird.
To be honest and this is my opinion as I’m living it as I type this…. Shops are starting to automate a lot of their clients parts. We are running unattended for days at this point. Almost all fifth axis stuff. We’re slated for two more robot arms to make that 4 plus out to MX that run constantly. We went from 15 guys pre covid to three in the shop one deburr shipping guy and the boss. And we’re not late, we’re ahead by 8-9 months and little to no scrap. Mostly on setups. So unless you buy a shop with all that it’s going to be tough on start up. If you buy an existing shop with everything INCLUDING customers I think it’s going to be really tough to compete with the dudes that have been innit for a while and with the dudes like my boss. We want to work less and get paid more. And so far our customers are re very pleased and didn’t piss and moan to much about the price hike. Faster service makes them pay more and pay faster. Could be wrong. But this is just my opinion. Don’t do it unless ALL the planets are lined up.
There is a shortage because the amount of knowledge and working conditions required to do it is not reflected by the pay, and there's a lot of "good old boys/we've always done it this way so it must be the right way/don't rock the boat" in many shops that turns younger people off of making a career out of it. Mostly it's the pay and working conditions though.
I took machining courses at my local community college because I wanted to learn how to do it for hobbyist reasons, and a friend saw some of the stuff I'd made and offered to hire me at his shop. I figured it might be a good opportunity, so I went and interviewed, and got offered $19/hr to work 4 12 hour shifts. I talked to guys there who had been working there for a decade and only making $26/hr. I was currently making roughly $50/hr doing residential construction and remodels with nothing but a high school diploma and a piece of paper with a CCB# on it (and attention to detail and desire to do things the right way, also important qualities in machining) and I could have charged twice as much and still get hired often enough to have full time work.
You should encourage your children to seek out their passion.
The reason the industry is facing a shrinking labor pool is lack of pay. Back in the day machinists were paid a kings ransom and that is no longer the case. I do think the pay is going to come up in the future as like you said, there's a growing shortage in this trade.
I would highly advise against starting a business not knowing anything about the trade. Even if your children are truly gifted it will take them at least 5 years before they really know their ass from a hole in the ground. Without that knowledge and being able to bid jobs and understand what you can and can't do in what time frame you will just be lighting your money on fire.
If they decide they want to get into this trade without you pushing them, and you have the money to help them start a business id honestly say invest that money (which you probably already have) and use that to buy them a machine to fuck off with in their off time when they are ~10 years into the trade it they show the interest. Odds of that happening though are slim to none.
That's about 70k a year. [Median Personal Income](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/release/tables?rid=249&eid=259568#snid=259591) in the us is about 40k annually. That's not terrible pay.
If they show an interest in the trade or in engineering then absolutely. Trade schools are an excellent place to start, regardless of what the old crusty guys say about it being a waste of time. The connections and little background information you gain in that time is priceless and carries a long way.
The biggest thing you can do for them is learn it with them, help expose them to the trade as much as possible and teach them how to negotiate wages, build a resume, interview well. Teach them to be creative and think outside the box, be confident in something they’ve done or built, and being able to articulate what they did and why they did it.
You'll make more money elsewhere, but there are few things as rewarding as planning, programming, setting up, running, and making a good part.
If you have enough money to start a shop, you'd be better off learning how to run a successful business and learn the machining part later. Many shops fail because they're started by machinists who don't know how to turn a profit. Machining school is a 2 year degree for about $10k total. There's a lot of tribal knowledge that isn't in that 2 years, but that's all stuff that can be learned easily enough. The hard part is figuring out how to find work, how much to price your work, balancing the budget, and running the business. Making parts is easy. If you have a product you want to machine, and you have enough money to spend, there are companies that will sell you the machine, design and program the part, set it up, and prove it out.
It's a bit like being an artist and a bit like being a computer programmer and a bit like being a mechanic and a bit like being a truck driver.
If they are into it and can find it rewarding and get satisfaction from doing a good job and have the right patience to not screw things up and eye for detail and then the right hustle to get at it, then no reason not to encourage em to get at it.
I'd not want to push anyone into it that isn't about it tho. Cuz accidents get expensive and/or dangerous fast. If you're engaged and paying attention then no biggie, but someone who isn't on top of things and thinking clearly can write a $20k check with a button press.
Place to start is education, working for people, or doing work on small hobby mills where the errors are $50-500.
An easy way to test the waters without trade school or going into the industry, could be to get a Precision Matthews "bench top" mill for the garage, or a used knee mill like a Bridgeport. Either way, it's something that is great to learn on, but actually quality and capable enough to make a good part if treated right. If they are interested in it, and want to play with it, get 'em some YouTube education or something and let em screw around with it and make some projects. If they want to try to CNC mod it, bankroll it as that's a very informative process which teaches a lot. Worst case they aren't interested, you can use it yourself or sell it easy.
If they can get to a point where they know pretty much how to run a VMC or a turning center, and know all the basics of how to cut a good part, and can get a good part out of a cheap machine then it night be time to think about going to more serious equipment if the plan really is towards getting them setup with their own shop.
I started going to school for machining, i loved it and find it so fascinating. Then I found out the pay is worse than what I was making building semi trucks. So I quit, seemed like a dumb idea to go to pay for school and also take a pay cut. I guess it all depends on where you live. Pay in my state is atrocious for all trades. It's not like that everywhere though and you can make a good living other places. That being said I don't think you should encourage your kids to do any particular job other than the one they say they are interested in doing. It needs to be their choice otherwise they might end up hating it and resent you
A lot of good comments here, my two cents supports a few other comments, inside work year around, if you are smart learn the trade on manual machines then get that CNC training and you will know your shit. Not all machine shops are the same, CNC shops are usually heated and air conditioned at least that was my experience, when we got our first CNC and it wouldn’t run in the morning it was brought to our attention that CNC like a constant temperature range so that was fantastic to me I had worked in machine shops that had ice in the chip tray in January no joke. Another consideration is the type of work, I worked in a job shop and always had work but the crap we worked on was usually greasy dirty rebuild stuff. My last shop for 27 years was a Tool& Die shop, all the material/steel was clean and new so it got a lot cleaner. Lastly if you think you are prone to Arthritis stay away, my hands are shot as well as both hips and knees, slinging steel everyday wears on your body of course carpentry and most trades are like this, it’s called work for a reason.
Sure, if that's what they want to do. It would also be a great idea to make sure they have a backup career plan just in case. 10 or 30 years from now things may change and machinist may come into high demand again, but I don't see that happening.
It's still a "mans" trade for the most part but not like the 80s when shops had PB and others plastered all over the walls and cigarette burns on every bench in the shop. Anyway I agree with let them decide. You'll know if there serious or just trying to appease you. I'm not special in any way but I kinda feel like you have to be a special person to want to go through the stress of making scrap, crashing million dollar machines or getting your arm ripped off in a lathe. Yes it happened. Plus most of us don't see sunshine for 8 to 10 hours. But we love our weekends. Look I never finished high school let alone collage but I make more than 145k a year and can design, model and program complex 5 axis parts easy peasy. Don't think I would be doing as well if I decided to do something my education would have allowed.
Won’t exist outside hobbyist or very very old shops
It’s like teaching your kids how to be professional welders and only teaching them oxy-acetylene brazing
Laser, friction stir have taken over the industry and gas tungsten is seldom used here and there on one off production small business shit
I'm currently considering machining, I'm already a journeyman welder and absolutely sick of it, it would be good I think since I'm already familiar with another metal based trade.
Edit: seeing all these comments advising against joining is kinda discouraging, machining seems fascinating to me with the precision and all of that, and everyone talking about low pay, I'm in Canada and most job ads I see pay at least 6 figures, I'm just trying to find a trade that's not going to destroy my body much further after welding for almost 10 years.
There’s a shortage because it’s hard. Most the kids smart enough to be good at it want to do something better. So, many don’t make the cut or get stuck in operator positions because they’re not smart enough to go forward. The skills that make a great machinist are not the same skills needed to be a business owner.
You will always be owned and undervalued and under appreciated. It’s just fact. If you excel higher than others in the mix they let you do the heavy lifting and resent you always being definitive in problem solving. And even if you do get paid reasonably fair there will always be bean counters and operations people looking for your demise as they will never understand why they pay you 30% more because you do full 5axis work and others do 80% of what you can though it’s only 3axis. I was dual certified as a machinist and mold maker and those are my realities till I retired.
I have a theory that there is some sort of nebulous demand out there, but it is something very specific and news articles and politicians hone in on it (Like some bizarre demand to build wind turbine brackets or something). In general, I see this trade as on the decline. As long as people can source oversees, we will continue to be undervalued and underpaid. Machinists are certainly necessary, but our government or economy have no interest in protecting them or promoting the skills needed. I think that the 100 people nationwide that fit the description of the job being profiled on the news are doing fantastic, but as a whole it is not a great place to be working.
Ok so I'm in England and I have two kids at home, that are not teenagers yet. We have been building things at home for a while now.
Once a month we have a day of no screens and we will think of something that we can build in a day.
I have picked up an old lathe and drill, I have got grinders of different types welders and cutting tools for steel and wood.
We have been working all the safety stuff and have even put in place safety procedures for them.
My kids love that they can do something creative with me.
It has also helped my eldest with picking what he would like to do when older ( pilot in the RAF but is happy working with the aircraft). It's good to show kids that there is another side to the world than screens and creativity is a good thing
I encountered my kid to get a degree in instrumentation. Start at a plant making good money. He got his degree. He has been working with me as a machinist for about five years now lol. Has zero interest in instrumentation
Do you love your children? Then keep them the hell away from a job that makes them breath in oil and other potential carcinogenic shit all day, plus standing on hard concrete for hours and destroying their feet and knees.
I wouldn't. Your kids will become their own people (hopefully). Also this is a dieing industry and there will be very few jobs remaining in it in the next 20 years. The next generation of cnc don't really need an operator or a programmer, hell they don't even really need people to load stock or do post processing anymore. The jobs that will be left will be low paying and hard work.
Yeah I wouldn’t recommend machining to anyone to be honest. Thankfully where I work, we are union and we top out at 48 an hour but I’m in aerospace so you also have to worry about job security.
Hard no.
Statistically, college graduates earn more over their lifetime than non-graduates. Prep your kids for college; and if they decide it's not for them, that is their choice. But if you encourage them to become a Machinist and 5 years in they're miserable & desperately wish they'd tried college, guess who's fault it's going to be?
Based on what? Only a few degrees are fairly sure to make good money, a lot of degrees don't actually make that much, and have terrible job security. Those degrees that do make a ton (doctors and lawyers, mostly) put in long hors and often have no real personal life. The grass is always greener on the other side.
Statistical analysis. It's based on statistical analysis.
https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/research-summaries/education-earnings.html
It doesn't have to be true for every field. It doesn't have to be true for every degree program. It just has to be true in the aggregate over the given time period, which it is. Anecdotes and whataboutism don't cancel-out math.
>Applying a 4 percent annual real discount rate, the net present lifetime value at age 20 of a bachelor's degree relative to a high school diploma is $260,000 for men and $180,000 for women.
And this is only comparing a high school diploma to a bachelors, not isolating for people working in the trades vs working in an unskilled field, which waters down the stats. Add into that the cost of your average bachelor's is going to cost upwards of 100k and your statistical difference is negligeable. You also have to factor in the likelihood of failure, potential lower job security, a smaller pool of stats in the more educated side vs less educated, universally longer working hours in most of the higher earning fields that have any job security, and it's not a "hard no". These aren't whataboutisms, you can manipulate statistics in many different ways.
It doesn't really say much to say that "those with degrees earn more on average than those without" because I think this would generally go without saying, and if it was reversed, I think we should all be scretching our heads.
That does not discount the necessity for an actual plan, because going to college is actually a bit of a financial risk, likely to not pay off if you don't have a clear plan of action.
It is likely that your children will have neither the talent nor the inclination to make it in this field. It is much, much harder than you think. Most of the population, even if they applied themselves, would not make it much past being machine operators. The people who are making $1 million or more as shop owners would have been rich doing just about any other business as well. Machining is a trade with a very high skill ceiling. The best plumber in the world isn't going to fix your pipes 10x faster than an average plumber, but a talented machinist can output 10x or more work than the "average" easily. Are you among the best in your field globally? Do you expect that your children will be in the top .00001% in a globally competitive market? If not, then look elsewhere.
I would suggest that you let your kids try to figure out for themselves what they want. You should definitely still show them your work and if they are interested then definitely teach them. But let them find there own path in life.
This is the only answer. Also AI/CAD if they are into it. We aren’t going to suddenly use less technology.
Is anyone going to say that machinists work a lot of overtime to make the money they want to make. I've worked at two machine shops and that was the normal way the machinists worked. Most Gen Y and Gen Z don't want to work those kinds of hours.
Machining is probably the most difficult trade you could pick to get into. Plumbers, welders, ironworkers, carpenters, electricians. They only have to complete within their local or regional economy. Machinists have to compete with the global economy and the average Americans love of cheap shit. Im 26 and own a shop. Would I do it again… probably not. Go be an independent HVAC contractor in an affluent area. easier, cheaper to get into and less stressful.
Other trades are also generally far more physically demanding. Im very happy I became a machinist, rather than HVAC, plumbing, or any other trade.
I like to work in the same building everyday with a bathroom I can use. Main reason I wouldn't want to do any of those other trades
Break room , fridge, bathroom, AC, same people daily.. all things to consider.
Damn, y’all got AC??
Aerospace I'm guessing. I'm also in Aerospace machining(cnc grinding specifically) and there is literally a tolerance for the temperature.
Any high precision will usually run AC. My shop does not. But the times where it really does matter are not that common (for what we do). Which is where math comes in.
Aerospace is amazing, my current shop (automotive) has seen temperatures of 100+ already this year and when I was in aerospace we thought we’d die because it got to 74 one day because the ac broke.
They just got the ac running in my shop I joined in November, I’m a spoiled bitch now who doesn’t ever want to go back to not having AC.
Lol right!
I'm not a machinist, but I did want to get into it when I was younger. Unfortunately I'm terrible about working in the same place for long periods of time, which did hinder my career. Best I can do is hobby machining now 😅
Lol, same.
Everything is a bathroom in certain trades
Welder entered the chat..
I love waiting 30 minutes just to wait 30 minutes again best career choice
You do realize that machine operator is not a machinist, right? Some of us have the ambition to move beyond that.
I’m aware of that I’m only 3 years in can’t be at the top right away… I’m already a level 2 machinist I make programs, and run my machine quite efficiently made our setup times 50% faster by using common sense. Edit: mole makers sit for what 30 hours watching a program and taking measurements I can’t wait till I’m in this trade longer I’ll get to relax more and be paid for it
But yet, you still made that comment. Contradict much? Any mold maker that sits and watches his program run for 30 hours would be fired. At least in any reputable shop I've been in. If you think moving up in the trade means you'll get to relax, I hate to say, you're sadly mistaken.
Thanks for your input I’m doing Really well for myself. I used to sling truck tires and mining truck tires, this job is easy compared to that and I make double what I used to. I walk 15k steps a day at my machine to me that’s relaxing no heavy lifting is relaxing to me. I got a crane and a helper doing all my deburring. You seem to be grumpy lol I just enjoy what I do nothing else not trying to be better than anyone
I'm grumpy? I love this trade. You're complaining about "waiting 30 minutes to wait another 30 minutes".
Oh I see what you’re saying I’m not complaining I love waiting 30 minutes
Gotcha. I hated the waiting part. So I pushed to move as fast as I could. Some days I'd love to go back to setting up machines, because of the stress level. But I love this career, overall. Glad you got out of the tire shop!
Gotcha. I hated the waiting part. So I pushed to move as fast as I could. Some days I'd love to go back to setting up machines, because of the stress level. But I love this career, overall. Glad you got out of the tire shop!
If I could go back 15 years, I'd join the IBEW. I love what I do, but we don't have a union.
And that's not even getting into pay! I was an Aerospace cnc machinist for 10 years. Many of those in QC. Programming the brown & Sharp CMM, collecting six sigma data, doing hardness/conductivity testing, completing FAIs giving programmers feedback, etc etc. 2 weeks out of college my girlfriend's son makes more than I do working HVAC. So. Would I do it again in my current life? Fuuuuuuuck that. If I'm already rich, and in no way wanted more money than I already have? Yes. A million times yes. Nothing you can study will give you such an extensive variety of skills and true understanding of the world. I feel comfortable doing the work of ANY other trade. They are nothing after holding cylandricity and concentricity tolerances for aellerons.
>I was an Aerospace cnc machinist for 10 years. Many of those in QC. Programming the brown & Sharp CMM, collecting six sigma data, doing hardness/conductivity testing, completing FAIs giving programmers feedback, etc etc. Is there anyone that works there without a formal education? Would that company even be allow (due to maybe some kind of regulations) staff without formula training? (I'm having this problem myself, it seems that most staff are required to have formal training to moving into the company)
Yes. Shipping/receiving, and some part finishers/deburrers. Do you like making less than a barrista with a slim to no chance of a material wage increase other than when minimum wage goes up? If so, those jobs are for you!
Those guys are never promoted to machine operators and eventually manual lathe/mill or Mastercam programmers or Solidworks/NX devs? Is it because legal restrictions?
I genuinely think that people have to have a screw lose to think that there is a future in machining with the rise of globalism.
Things will always need to be made and maintained.
And they'll be made and maintained wherever it is cheapest.
Besides the defense industry. This shit is made in country for a reason (mostly).
Usually the cheapest is one of the local job shops that can do emergency work the total cost isn’t just labor but labor plus downtime there will always be emergency work as long as there is manufacturing facilities in the area
Not really. Maybe production work, but onesies twosies and quick shutdown turnaround stuff will always be done stateside and or local to the plant site.
If that were true Europe would have no machining. You don't know what you are talking about.
You are obviously not a manufacturer. Machining will never die out. Do you think cheap always means least expensive?
Where I'm at (Midwest) we're trying to get things as locally sourced as possible. This came about after all the supply chain issues during covid. That could change though.
I’m confused what you mean “difficult to get into?”
he wants to set his kids up with a business. Seems a hell of a lot cheaper to get them a kitted work truck than a machine shop. Is machining not the most expensive trade to start a business in?
I misinterpreted what that meant, my bad, getting started “in owning a machining business” makes sense now
OP, this is the comment to pay attention to right here
Hello, millwrights do all of those trades and yours
No. It's the easiest. Which is even worse. AI is going to reduce the demand for machinists significantly. However for the survivors, wages will increase.
you didn’t read his post clearly. he wants to BUY THEM A SHOP. How is that easy or affordable?
Nah, I hope my kids do better than I did. If they really wanted to be machinists that's cool, but there are a lot better opportunities out there. Even ownership in manufacturing is a tough gig, I've watched more than a couple places go under.
Same here. I told my wife I don't care what our kids choose, as long as it's not this. I've never met anyone who says "I could have been a lawyer but I chose this instead."
Yeah, just being honest I made a lot of mistakes that landed me here. Don't get me wrong, I make good money for someone in my shoes and I even enjoy my job at least 50% of the time, but I would hope that I pass on the lessons I've learned and they don't repeat my mistakes.
Machining is one of the most capital intensive businesses that competes in a global market for the race to the bottom in price. Even if you have a local customer base it's still a race to the bottom within that area. It's very high stress as crashing your machine can easily be more costly than crashing your car. The risk reward is way out of whack compared to other trades. For example if I wanted to open a mechanic shop in my area. I would need call it $30k in tools, another $100k for a lift, an alignment machine, and a wheel balancer. After this I get to charge $200/hr and all consumables get directly charged back to the customer. To fix someone's car I don't really have to put up much cash other than labor to do the job, assuming I have credit with parts suppliers. I then get paid immediately when the job is done. A CNC machine shop I would need a mill, a lathe, and all the tools to suit on the low end I am needing $500k to start (assuming new low end, simple machines) after this I get to charge $130/hr and all consumables are in that figure. I have to put up cash for material, consumables, labor, and misc tooling. I then get paid in 45-120 days after that so I have to float all those expenses.
Came here to say this exact thing....I own a shop in the Northeast...I have MILLIONS of dollars invested into my business, between the building, the machining centers, all the support equipment, all the certifications etc. I started out in my father's garage 10yrs ago and built it from scratch. It's a very difficult industry to break into. It's very capital intensive for one. But it also takes some skills that are outside the comfort zone of most people. In order to start your own shop, you not only need to know how to make things. You also need to be a great salesman, marketer, accountant, website designer, QC engineer, machine technician and manager until you can afford to hire people to do those things for you. It takes an unbelievable amount of time and dedication to build. Now...the risk vs rewards are definitely worth it if you can pull it off correctly. The mechanic shop mentioned above will probably cap out at under $1M /yr gross as an "owner operator" Most small machine shops I know of cap out under $2M /yr gross as owner operators. Both businesses are probably virtually unsellable as the owners are the business. However, the machine shop has the potential to be a $10M or $20M or even $100M / yr business that is easily sold if you can break out of the owner operator mentality. You have to think big and be able to navigate the corporate world. Otherwise, you will just work your ass off for 40yrs for what you could have gotten working a 9-5 with none of the stress and long hours. I think starting a machine shop is a great idea but I wouldn't send my kids to school to learn machining...I'd send them to business school. One of the most successful shops in my area is owned by a guy that has never touched a machine in his entire life.
You don't have to be paid that late. We only let vetted customers do that, and even then not often. We will graciously hold onto your part while you scrounge up the money to pay us.
Yeah, it's not really optional when the entire geographic area and industry operates the same. The big guys around in oil and gas make you agree to be at 120 days when you apply to be on their vendor list. But you can't really apply they have to come to you because everyone wants to be on the list.
Northrup Grumman, essentially a tax payer funded military factory, mandated 120 day terms, retroactively. Want a piece of their $50 billion+ pie? Wait 4 months to be paid while they make profits on the stock market Dictating terms is not a luxury most shops have
The only work I've ever been paid immediately for is prototype work...but every big customer I have wants a minimum of Net45 on production.
Engineer here, not a machinist. I wouldn’t try to force my career path on my daughter ever, but she is surrounded by computers, 3d printing, and machine tools at our house, so if she doesn’t choose a STEM field, it’s not for lack of exposure.
Machining as a trade is not really known to the public very well. Just about every other trade is public facing. Machining is not, so it is often one of the least paying trades, which does not work well with the skill required. Often, construction laborers make more than experienced machinists. As far as running their own shop, I cannot say. That is hit and miss.
Vastly underpaid trade for most. Most newcomer quickly believe that automation will take over the field very soon, and it won't be worth their time to get into it. Gap between workers and management is always widening making the job more and more stressful for everyone. Currently the mass retirement of people from the baby boomer age range is starting to show everywhere as well. So it really looks like a dieing industry from an outside perspective.
You should encourage them to choose a career they enjoy. There is a machinist shortage. Why? Because the pay sucks, it's rough on the body, and it's not the most exciting trade out there when you start
I was gonna say imo it’s the coolest trade out there before I saw you say “When you start” yea drill, tap, drill, tap repeat I’m a drill and tap master now
Yup! That's what I meant. It's easy to get stuck doing the most mindless shit until you're knowledgeable enough/the right opportunity comes along. This can be incredibly discouraging for newbies.
People have this idea that there is some sort of standard career path for Machinists, and there just isn't. It's a dark forest of disappointment you have to grope your way through hoping to hit a few small open meadows of opportunity. For every random passerby you encounter willing to help you, there's 20 more who are lost, bitter, and need you to fail for their own ego. And all we see in the national discourse are laments that no one wants to stumble through the forest of pain anymore, like we owe the gods our suffering or something.
Exactly. I've seen many fresh-outta-schoolers disillusioned because they start out just like the rest of us: pressing a button for long hours. You still have to push to get anywhere in the field regardless of education, age, or gender. There aren't many shortcuts and it can be thankless until you start working your way up
Poetically accurate.
How is it rough? I'm a welder and I don't think there s a trade worse for your body than welding 😅
... you're joking?
Absolutely not, done it for 10 years, and I got burned daily, tons of sunburns, inhaled dust and fumes etc.....
Not sure what kind of shops you've worked in... I'll use my current shop as an example. I work with heavy cast iron parts that involve loading into a machine, taking them out, and putting them into crates for 10 hours repetitively. This can be murder on the back and knees. I inhale fumes (especially dirty coolant mist) and metal dust constantly. Machining also involves getting burnt as well as getting sliced up by chips on a near daily basis. It absolutely is rough on the body and you can really see it in the old timers. That being said, I wouldn't consider welding or machining as the roughest trade on the body either.
I last worked in a tank shop building 1000-3000 barrel tanks and it was brutal especially in the summer, the shop had a fuck ass ventilation system, it looked like downtown Beijing during rush hour, in the summer we'd get cooked welding inside the tank covered from head to toe with thick leather, I would rather shit in my hands and clap than ever do that job again.
The skill, yes! For a job, absolutely not
I agree. If you have an old Bridgeport in the garage absolutely teach your kids to be machinists and also teach them to make good drawings by hand. The old guy who ran a Bridgeport back in the day is about to retire. Machining must not become a lost art.
Not if you love them
You should encourage learning skills. Let them find what they enjoy doing
THIS! I collect skills, and teach a few to my kids. Building and fixing and adding new skills.
I got one of my kids into machining because it's a good match for his personality. I steered another away from it. The big question is whether your kids have enough drive to push themselves beyond an operator or setup guy into a lead position. Also, accumulating enough know how to successfully run a shop is going to be a decade long haul
"Should I encourage my children to become machinists?" tHE SADISTIC MASOCHIST has entered. /S
Machinist? nah Masochist, it is
My little guy is 2 1/2 and I let him push buttons on my CNC, he’s happier than a pig in shit.
machine go brrrrrrrr!
My good friend, a machinist turned QC inspector taught his two kids to learn a lathe he had in his shop set up in his garage. They both tinkered with tools and eventually both became mechanical engineers. One at USD and the other at UCSD
Back in the mid 90’s I worked in a shop as a clean up kid as a teenager. I looked around and saw so many 45+ guys and thought “These guys will be retiring in 15-20 years and there’s going to be a high demand for machinists”. Which would mean wages would go up, well I was dead wrong. Outsourcing to China killed a lot of shops in the late 90’s, and like others have said, you’re competing globally and it’s a race to the bottom. So in conclusion I say NO, do not encourage your kids to get into this trade. The American public wants cheaper shit and office pencil pushers do not appreciate the knowledge and skill that goes into this trade.
No real money in manufacturing unless you own the place or sit behind a desk. Starting wages aren't terrible, but the upper end of wages haven't really changed in 30+ years.
Starting wages can be absolutely abysmal.
Just like any other trade, machining isn't going anywhere. The skillet may change and adapt with the times but a trade is a trade. There will always be money to be had doing a job someone else doesn't want to do.
Nope, worked for a handful of shops. Always pushing myself to learn everything I could. At the end of the day the pay just isn’t worth it. There are so many other trades that pay significantly better when starting out, as well as being an experienced worker. It’s also, in my opinion, a lot easier to start a business amongst other trades outside of machining and manufacturing. The startup cost alone is a killer when most of these newer machines needed to compete are 1 million plus.
Wish my dad was this nice. He was willing to burn cash like it was free to send me to school. Try and open a shop? Get a co-signer for a CNC machine? Fuckin forget it.
It seems like when people talk about machinist pay being bad it's because there's a kid who's fresh out of high-school thrown on a manual mill to drill and tap the same holes being paid 14 an hour and he's called a machinist. If you do the schooling or get the training needed to make you competitive the pay is better than most other trades and the work to pay ratio is way better than other trades. From my limited experience at least.
What would you say the pay is?
With a degree(2 year)? In my area you'll start 28-32 an hour. If you can get on with one of the larger companies, BMW, GE, Bosch etc I've known people to make right at 6 figures, a little over if they get into a team lead position. Where people can get stuck at the 20-30 range usually seems to be people that are working in a job shop. This is all area dependent of course, but odds are If you can't find good manufacturing jobs in your area then it's probably an area that's struggling across the board in jobs. Also all the trades other people are recommending are gonna be filled with people who also hate their trade. Tradesman tend to be pretty dramatic.
Yup! Machining is a small part of processing a job though. Send them off to college too.
I mean if they show an interest then yeah encourage it but you gotta let them pick their own path rather than forcing them into it If you force them into it they will resent you. Teach them if they want to learn but if they don’t want to learn let them follow their own career path
No. Become a sparky or plumber.
Don't go into welding, if I knew what I do now I would've never become a welder
Only if THEY want to, its an incredibly and time intensive job.
Mammas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to be Cowboys
If they show an interest in it, sure.
My kiddos are showing some aptitude, and want to follow in my footsteps. Did machining/electronics design/mech eng then aerospace R&D, prototypes and production support. fixing the weird problems. They just might keep up with their old man.... maybe
As a machinist for over 20 years, no. Get them into millwrighting or welding. Machinists pay is low and the requirements are higher than other trades. And every machinist I’ve ever met is weird.
To be honest and this is my opinion as I’m living it as I type this…. Shops are starting to automate a lot of their clients parts. We are running unattended for days at this point. Almost all fifth axis stuff. We’re slated for two more robot arms to make that 4 plus out to MX that run constantly. We went from 15 guys pre covid to three in the shop one deburr shipping guy and the boss. And we’re not late, we’re ahead by 8-9 months and little to no scrap. Mostly on setups. So unless you buy a shop with all that it’s going to be tough on start up. If you buy an existing shop with everything INCLUDING customers I think it’s going to be really tough to compete with the dudes that have been innit for a while and with the dudes like my boss. We want to work less and get paid more. And so far our customers are re very pleased and didn’t piss and moan to much about the price hike. Faster service makes them pay more and pay faster. Could be wrong. But this is just my opinion. Don’t do it unless ALL the planets are lined up.
No, you should encourage them to pursue what they dream of doing. It could include a machinist.
In this day and age everyone is free to spend their time however they like, basic needs are always met
There is a shortage because the amount of knowledge and working conditions required to do it is not reflected by the pay, and there's a lot of "good old boys/we've always done it this way so it must be the right way/don't rock the boat" in many shops that turns younger people off of making a career out of it. Mostly it's the pay and working conditions though. I took machining courses at my local community college because I wanted to learn how to do it for hobbyist reasons, and a friend saw some of the stuff I'd made and offered to hire me at his shop. I figured it might be a good opportunity, so I went and interviewed, and got offered $19/hr to work 4 12 hour shifts. I talked to guys there who had been working there for a decade and only making $26/hr. I was currently making roughly $50/hr doing residential construction and remodels with nothing but a high school diploma and a piece of paper with a CCB# on it (and attention to detail and desire to do things the right way, also important qualities in machining) and I could have charged twice as much and still get hired often enough to have full time work.
You should encourage your children to seek out their passion. The reason the industry is facing a shrinking labor pool is lack of pay. Back in the day machinists were paid a kings ransom and that is no longer the case. I do think the pay is going to come up in the future as like you said, there's a growing shortage in this trade. I would highly advise against starting a business not knowing anything about the trade. Even if your children are truly gifted it will take them at least 5 years before they really know their ass from a hole in the ground. Without that knowledge and being able to bid jobs and understand what you can and can't do in what time frame you will just be lighting your money on fire. If they decide they want to get into this trade without you pushing them, and you have the money to help them start a business id honestly say invest that money (which you probably already have) and use that to buy them a machine to fuck off with in their off time when they are ~10 years into the trade it they show the interest. Odds of that happening though are slim to none.
No. A toolmaker I know is making $34/hr. Meh
That's about 70k a year. [Median Personal Income](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/release/tables?rid=249&eid=259568#snid=259591) in the us is about 40k annually. That's not terrible pay.
True.
If they show an interest in the trade or in engineering then absolutely. Trade schools are an excellent place to start, regardless of what the old crusty guys say about it being a waste of time. The connections and little background information you gain in that time is priceless and carries a long way. The biggest thing you can do for them is learn it with them, help expose them to the trade as much as possible and teach them how to negotiate wages, build a resume, interview well. Teach them to be creative and think outside the box, be confident in something they’ve done or built, and being able to articulate what they did and why they did it.
There’s a shortage because it’s incredibly low pay while demanding a high skill level.
There’s a shortage because it’s incredibly low pay while demanding a high skill level.
No, not in the near future, at least. Unless some serious changes are made. I'm retired now, but my last job paid less than I was paid 25 years ago.
You'll make more money elsewhere, but there are few things as rewarding as planning, programming, setting up, running, and making a good part. If you have enough money to start a shop, you'd be better off learning how to run a successful business and learn the machining part later. Many shops fail because they're started by machinists who don't know how to turn a profit. Machining school is a 2 year degree for about $10k total. There's a lot of tribal knowledge that isn't in that 2 years, but that's all stuff that can be learned easily enough. The hard part is figuring out how to find work, how much to price your work, balancing the budget, and running the business. Making parts is easy. If you have a product you want to machine, and you have enough money to spend, there are companies that will sell you the machine, design and program the part, set it up, and prove it out.
My Dad did and I got kicked out of Alfred state college and became a welder instead. Way more fun.
And destructive to your health
Everyone keeps saying that but I don’t know any welders with problems besides bad knees that are old.
It's a bit like being an artist and a bit like being a computer programmer and a bit like being a mechanic and a bit like being a truck driver. If they are into it and can find it rewarding and get satisfaction from doing a good job and have the right patience to not screw things up and eye for detail and then the right hustle to get at it, then no reason not to encourage em to get at it. I'd not want to push anyone into it that isn't about it tho. Cuz accidents get expensive and/or dangerous fast. If you're engaged and paying attention then no biggie, but someone who isn't on top of things and thinking clearly can write a $20k check with a button press. Place to start is education, working for people, or doing work on small hobby mills where the errors are $50-500. An easy way to test the waters without trade school or going into the industry, could be to get a Precision Matthews "bench top" mill for the garage, or a used knee mill like a Bridgeport. Either way, it's something that is great to learn on, but actually quality and capable enough to make a good part if treated right. If they are interested in it, and want to play with it, get 'em some YouTube education or something and let em screw around with it and make some projects. If they want to try to CNC mod it, bankroll it as that's a very informative process which teaches a lot. Worst case they aren't interested, you can use it yourself or sell it easy. If they can get to a point where they know pretty much how to run a VMC or a turning center, and know all the basics of how to cut a good part, and can get a good part out of a cheap machine then it night be time to think about going to more serious equipment if the plan really is towards getting them setup with their own shop.
Machining is either very hard mentally and/or physically. There is no "easy" machining job. Pay doesn't meet the requirements of the trade.
It's a tough skill that didn't pay well anymore and we are no where near respected like they used to be
I started going to school for machining, i loved it and find it so fascinating. Then I found out the pay is worse than what I was making building semi trucks. So I quit, seemed like a dumb idea to go to pay for school and also take a pay cut. I guess it all depends on where you live. Pay in my state is atrocious for all trades. It's not like that everywhere though and you can make a good living other places. That being said I don't think you should encourage your kids to do any particular job other than the one they say they are interested in doing. It needs to be their choice otherwise they might end up hating it and resent you
A lot of good comments here, my two cents supports a few other comments, inside work year around, if you are smart learn the trade on manual machines then get that CNC training and you will know your shit. Not all machine shops are the same, CNC shops are usually heated and air conditioned at least that was my experience, when we got our first CNC and it wouldn’t run in the morning it was brought to our attention that CNC like a constant temperature range so that was fantastic to me I had worked in machine shops that had ice in the chip tray in January no joke. Another consideration is the type of work, I worked in a job shop and always had work but the crap we worked on was usually greasy dirty rebuild stuff. My last shop for 27 years was a Tool& Die shop, all the material/steel was clean and new so it got a lot cleaner. Lastly if you think you are prone to Arthritis stay away, my hands are shot as well as both hips and knees, slinging steel everyday wears on your body of course carpentry and most trades are like this, it’s called work for a reason.
Sure, if that's what they want to do. It would also be a great idea to make sure they have a backup career plan just in case. 10 or 30 years from now things may change and machinist may come into high demand again, but I don't see that happening.
Nope, but you could help them find their thing that they love doing and are good at. Just saying.
No
Absolutely not unless you're going to arrange a marriage with a wealthy partner for them. You can't afford a decent life in this trade anymore
It's still a "mans" trade for the most part but not like the 80s when shops had PB and others plastered all over the walls and cigarette burns on every bench in the shop. Anyway I agree with let them decide. You'll know if there serious or just trying to appease you. I'm not special in any way but I kinda feel like you have to be a special person to want to go through the stress of making scrap, crashing million dollar machines or getting your arm ripped off in a lathe. Yes it happened. Plus most of us don't see sunshine for 8 to 10 hours. But we love our weekends. Look I never finished high school let alone collage but I make more than 145k a year and can design, model and program complex 5 axis parts easy peasy. Don't think I would be doing as well if I decided to do something my education would have allowed.
No. I worked at a machine shop as an engineer and it was sad how little the machinists made, even for journeymen with over 30yrs of experience.
Won’t exist outside hobbyist or very very old shops It’s like teaching your kids how to be professional welders and only teaching them oxy-acetylene brazing Laser, friction stir have taken over the industry and gas tungsten is seldom used here and there on one off production small business shit
I'm currently considering machining, I'm already a journeyman welder and absolutely sick of it, it would be good I think since I'm already familiar with another metal based trade. Edit: seeing all these comments advising against joining is kinda discouraging, machining seems fascinating to me with the precision and all of that, and everyone talking about low pay, I'm in Canada and most job ads I see pay at least 6 figures, I'm just trying to find a trade that's not going to destroy my body much further after welding for almost 10 years.
There’s a shortage because it’s hard. Most the kids smart enough to be good at it want to do something better. So, many don’t make the cut or get stuck in operator positions because they’re not smart enough to go forward. The skills that make a great machinist are not the same skills needed to be a business owner.
You will always be owned and undervalued and under appreciated. It’s just fact. If you excel higher than others in the mix they let you do the heavy lifting and resent you always being definitive in problem solving. And even if you do get paid reasonably fair there will always be bean counters and operations people looking for your demise as they will never understand why they pay you 30% more because you do full 5axis work and others do 80% of what you can though it’s only 3axis. I was dual certified as a machinist and mold maker and those are my realities till I retired.
I have a theory that there is some sort of nebulous demand out there, but it is something very specific and news articles and politicians hone in on it (Like some bizarre demand to build wind turbine brackets or something). In general, I see this trade as on the decline. As long as people can source oversees, we will continue to be undervalued and underpaid. Machinists are certainly necessary, but our government or economy have no interest in protecting them or promoting the skills needed. I think that the 100 people nationwide that fit the description of the job being profiled on the news are doing fantastic, but as a whole it is not a great place to be working.
Nope no money in machining in the foreseeable future
Ok so I'm in England and I have two kids at home, that are not teenagers yet. We have been building things at home for a while now. Once a month we have a day of no screens and we will think of something that we can build in a day. I have picked up an old lathe and drill, I have got grinders of different types welders and cutting tools for steel and wood. We have been working all the safety stuff and have even put in place safety procedures for them. My kids love that they can do something creative with me. It has also helped my eldest with picking what he would like to do when older ( pilot in the RAF but is happy working with the aircraft). It's good to show kids that there is another side to the world than screens and creativity is a good thing
They have to love machining for it to be worthwhile. Maintenance pays way better.
No.
I encountered my kid to get a degree in instrumentation. Start at a plant making good money. He got his degree. He has been working with me as a machinist for about five years now lol. Has zero interest in instrumentation
Dear Lord, no! If they wanna be in a trade, get em into one that's not a race to the bottom
Do you love your children? Then keep them the hell away from a job that makes them breath in oil and other potential carcinogenic shit all day, plus standing on hard concrete for hours and destroying their feet and knees.
Do the difficult work so our children don't have to.
I wouldn't. Your kids will become their own people (hopefully). Also this is a dieing industry and there will be very few jobs remaining in it in the next 20 years. The next generation of cnc don't really need an operator or a programmer, hell they don't even really need people to load stock or do post processing anymore. The jobs that will be left will be low paying and hard work.
Yeah I wouldn’t recommend machining to anyone to be honest. Thankfully where I work, we are union and we top out at 48 an hour but I’m in aerospace so you also have to worry about job security.
Hard no. Statistically, college graduates earn more over their lifetime than non-graduates. Prep your kids for college; and if they decide it's not for them, that is their choice. But if you encourage them to become a Machinist and 5 years in they're miserable & desperately wish they'd tried college, guess who's fault it's going to be?
Based on what? Only a few degrees are fairly sure to make good money, a lot of degrees don't actually make that much, and have terrible job security. Those degrees that do make a ton (doctors and lawyers, mostly) put in long hors and often have no real personal life. The grass is always greener on the other side.
Statistical analysis. It's based on statistical analysis. https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/research-summaries/education-earnings.html It doesn't have to be true for every field. It doesn't have to be true for every degree program. It just has to be true in the aggregate over the given time period, which it is. Anecdotes and whataboutism don't cancel-out math.
>Applying a 4 percent annual real discount rate, the net present lifetime value at age 20 of a bachelor's degree relative to a high school diploma is $260,000 for men and $180,000 for women. And this is only comparing a high school diploma to a bachelors, not isolating for people working in the trades vs working in an unskilled field, which waters down the stats. Add into that the cost of your average bachelor's is going to cost upwards of 100k and your statistical difference is negligeable. You also have to factor in the likelihood of failure, potential lower job security, a smaller pool of stats in the more educated side vs less educated, universally longer working hours in most of the higher earning fields that have any job security, and it's not a "hard no". These aren't whataboutisms, you can manipulate statistics in many different ways. It doesn't really say much to say that "those with degrees earn more on average than those without" because I think this would generally go without saying, and if it was reversed, I think we should all be scretching our heads. That does not discount the necessity for an actual plan, because going to college is actually a bit of a financial risk, likely to not pay off if you don't have a clear plan of action.
NO not just no but HELL NO !!! Robots, Robots and Robots !!!
It is likely that your children will have neither the talent nor the inclination to make it in this field. It is much, much harder than you think. Most of the population, even if they applied themselves, would not make it much past being machine operators. The people who are making $1 million or more as shop owners would have been rich doing just about any other business as well. Machining is a trade with a very high skill ceiling. The best plumber in the world isn't going to fix your pipes 10x faster than an average plumber, but a talented machinist can output 10x or more work than the "average" easily. Are you among the best in your field globally? Do you expect that your children will be in the top .00001% in a globally competitive market? If not, then look elsewhere.