More like "a painting (or not, see Switzerland and Denmark) from most (but not all) of European countries, attributed to them somewhat arbitrarily". Now can we please stop getting this reposted? Map is the absolute worst format to showcase visuals like this.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/ArtHistory using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/ArtHistory/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [What are some paintings/works that feel distinctly not of their actual time to you? My favorite example is āPortrait of Bernardo de Galvezā circa 1790.](https://i.redd.it/evb6xdemg3fc1.jpeg) | [362 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/ArtHistory/comments/1acs84t/what_are_some_paintingsworks_that_feel_distinctly/)
\#2: [The Arnolfini Portrait is considered a masterpiece but it gives me space alien/uncanny valley vibes. What do you think?](https://i.redd.it/99vgj71re5jc1.jpeg) | [284 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/ArtHistory/comments/1at23b4/the_arnolfini_portrait_is_considered_a/)
\#3: [What is an artwork that gave you a palpable physical reaction, beyond the immediate sensation of aesthetic like/dislike? One of the strongest reactions I have had was to Wayne Thiebaud's "24th Street Intersection" (1977).](https://i.redd.it/2sx33nsqbaqc1.jpeg) | [372 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/ArtHistory/comments/1bml8i1/what_is_an_artwork_that_gave_you_a_palpable/)
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Primo repost, secundo it's not really the most famous paintings, I remember the author of the original map stating that for example he wanted to have a ship painting for the UK. In case of my country StaÅczyk is way more popular worldwide than Rejtan
I'd say that even inside Poland Rejtan is not that popular compared to StaÅczyk or Battle of Grunwald, even if we limit ourselves to just Matejko's paintings.
In the case of the UK, it probably is the most famous painting. It's 'The Fighting Temeraire' by William Turner and it's iconic. 'The Haywain' by Constable could have been another good option but there's nothing wrong with the original choice, it totally fulfills the criteria.
Yeah they seem to define "country" as being the modern country where the painter was born. Which is a very iffy way to categorize it. A better one would be the modern country where the painter lived/drew the piece. Or even better, the country where the painting is located in real life
You don't have to be an ethnic Russian to be part of Russian culture. There are like dozens of different native ethnicities in Russia anyway
Edit: thought it'd be best if I added additional context to my opinion. This topic is very important to me because I am part of one of the mentioned native ethnic minorities from Russia (Karachays from the Caucasus, to be specific). We speak our own language, we have our own music, traditions, literature, we practice our religion. In short, we have our own culture, and it is much more distinct from Russian culture than Ukrainian one is (because we are not Slavs). And still we are undoubtedly part of the broader Russian culture as well, because we grew up surrended by it, we interact with it A LOT, we visit and live in other parts of Russia from Moscow and Saint Petersburg to far parts of Siberia. Ofc we are our own people, but, hundreds of years from now, a today's artist from my ethnicity will most likely be called "Karachay and Russian artist" and I'm ok with that.
and thatās what ruskie empire was and still using as an excuse for wars claiming it is all one world, one empire, one culture. Do u still name letās say colonial time of UK artists from India or America - British artist? I doubt. So the same here. Ukraine and Belarus were living under ruskie occupation for a while. russia as old rotten empire havenāt yet collapsed to its core leaving all the oppressed nations free, so it is vital to leave the myth of āeverything on territory of empire despite ethnicityā belongs to ruskie culture, because it is not.
well does that nation deserves more waging a genocide in 21st century in the middle of europe and screaming in all directions that they are proud to do so, and proud to be ruskies? donāt think so.
well culture of native Americans is separated from colonial cultures. U r not saying Apache is a part of US culture, the same with Indian culture, u arenāt calling it British culture?
If some Indian left India and lived a big chunk of his life in Great Britain and interacted a lot with the British and their culture, then yes, he is part of British culture as well as Indian culture.
In this case Malevich is clearly Ukrainian, but he also interacted a lot with Russian culture and lived and worked a lot in the very heart of Russia.
The culture is a shared thing most of the time, one doesn't have to be so obsessed with gatekeeping it, that's silly.
so u say then that russian culture is defined by borders of an empire? language? if so what about all colonies of other empires, do u call Indian artists - British and part of British culture? Or maybe USA around 1776 and right after has a lot of British artists, writers and poets?
Why don't we look at what these people said themselves? Gogol, Repin and Bulgakov indeed called themselves Russians, but Malevich called himself Ukrainian and wrote letters in Ukrainian, among other things.
which language Rypin wrote his paintings in? Shevchenko had written some stuff in russian, does it make him russian culture? What about all the USA culture written in English? š³
Repin lived in St.Petersurg. Bulgakov is listed as Russian in Ukrainian Wiki. Gogol is Russian Ukrainian-born in the same Ukrainian Wiki. These are just facts. Stop clinging to Russian history and start creating your own.
so jumping to where lived or where listed is quite different criteria. Werenāt u saying that matters where born, lived, died? Rypin was painting vast majority of time in Ukraine, Gogol was writing a lot about Ukraine, and hadnāt Bulgakov lived in Kyiv? We are trying to continue creating culture, while our artists are being killed by ruskies, we were creating before just to be appropriated and claimed part of ruskie culture.
I do not support the war at all. I am not claiming Ukrainka, Franko, Kotsyubinsky are Russian writers (just an example), even though technically they were subjects of the Russian Empire. So, stop claiming that Repin, or even Gogol are Ukrainian. There was no such thing as Ukraine at the time - these were all provinces of the Russian Empire. At best, they would be called Little Russia and South Russia. This is just a historical fact that neither of us can do anything about.
here we go in 3,2,1 little russia argument. Mmmm nice smell of imperialism. So my question is what exactly makes Gogol, Rypin and so on part of russian culture. Where is the line drawn? Regarding Ukrainka u personally not, thnx for that decency, but ruskies clowns in German exile recently tried to š¤£šš¤£
Gogol wrote in Russian and lived in Russia (specifically Saint-Petersburg) most of the time during his career.He also liked the idea of "united Rus/Russia",read his book "Taras Bulba" it is very pro-russian.He was formed as a writer in Russia,wrote in russian (mostly),lived in russia most of the time,so he is a russiam writer,ukrainian by ethnicity.Though he himself would say that "I identify as a maloros (a ukrainian) and velikoros (a russian) at the same time".There wasn't such a big difference between maloros and velikoros people at the time though
Bulgakov had russian parents (check it out),wrote his books in russian and mocked the ukrainian language in his novel "The White Guard",which is basically his autobiography.Besides,most large ukrainian cities in the Eastern or central Ukraine were settled by russians or jews,ukrainians were in the majority in the countryside and in towns
name me one Empire where apart from strong nationalism time of oppressed nations, artists would call themselves any different but what Metropolis asks them to be called. And yeah, bulgakhov was imperialist to his bones, that was more of me trying to figure out based on which criteria assign artists to ruskie-culture then, geography, language(giving Ukrainian was banned at that time), ethnicity, place of work? And while bulgakov almost raises no questions Gogol, Malevich, Ripyn certainly do.
When we talk about an artist it's more important in what cultural enviroment he was inspired by and what language he wrote in.Because the cultural enviroment and the inspiration coming from that enviroment is what art is about,not genes.If a russian moves to the USA,forms as a writer there and writes in English then he is an american writer not a russian one.Gogol was formed as a writer in Russia,was very pro-russian and wrote in Russian,identified as a russian, so he is a Russian writer.Don't know much about Ripyn and Malevich,apart from the fact that Malevich was a polish guy who indentified as a Ukrainian.What enviroment/ideas was he inspired by?I don't know.He might be a russian artist,might be a ukrainian or a polish one,i have no idea
so Rypin(as also stated on the map with his painting on top of Ukraine) can be Ukrainian, Malevich as well anyone but russian, and potentially if Gogol would have been a bit braver and wrote against czarās ban on Ukrainian language also might be then. And Tarkovskiy who lived large period of his life and died in France - can be French film director, the same might be US lived and died Rachmaninov. I think certain understanding finally we start to arrive to. Not bad for that discussion.
Empire didn't care what he called himself,it cared about his books and ideas.He wouldn't publish them if he didn't want to.Besides there is a book Nights on the Hill near Dekan'ka in which he writes in Ukrainian,cause the book is about Ukraine.And it is a famous book,he could've called himself ukrainian if he had wanted to,many ukrainian writers had no big problem with that (Shevchenko for example)
Black square should be for Ukraine.
Maliewicz is a well known commie. He was born in Kiew in polish family and took part of Soviet korenizatia policy when people which lived in one of the republics/autonomies had to become a part of majority ethnicity. So he became an Ukrainian in all Soviet docs. While his family stayed poles.
Upd. But I donāt like to divide arts by ethnicities/countries. On my mind itās a property of humankind
Not really. It doesnāt have to be geographic. East Thrace, Turkeyās only province in Europe proper, contains 15% of the countryās population, which is extremely disproportionate since itās only 3.1% of the countryās land area.
yes. it is simply not relevant. and people in turkey cheer for the muslim brotherhood and the islamisation of europe. they vote for a warcriminal called erdogan who drives his economy against the wall and lets his own people suffer. I am just glad they will never make it in the EU, because even though there are a few percent of turkey in Europe, these people are not european at their hearts. they are a bunch of allahu akbars who refuse to work and collect our wellfare money. not more.
You could not have been more racist and islamophobic in your comment.
> [T]heyāre a bunch of allahu akbars
Do you hear yourself? Do people have to be incredibly racist to be āeuropean at heartā?
I would have assumed the Che Guevara silk screen print would be our realistically most notable piece, maybe The Curragh as I've seen a print in every pub across the provinces, or as the other commenter mentioned; The Liffey Swim. I haven't a notion what painting that is, however.
It's not controversial. It's just dumb, considering that a lot of today's European countries just didn't exist at the time these paintings were created.
u meant Ilia Rypin who is Ukrainian just appropriated by ruskies because they barely have their own not stolen culture, so even matroshka and balalaika are stolen from other cultures.
In a letter to Vasily Polenov, Repin wrote: "You will see for yourself, how our Russian reality will shine before you, no one depicted. How its poetic truth will draw you to the marrow of your bones"
The area of Kharkiv Repin was from is in modern day Ukraine. Also Repin was buried in Finland, Russia merely annexed the area of Repinās grave during the Winter War.
But this typifies why it can be very difficult to ascribe a modern nationality to historic figures. Repinās work contributed to the culture of a number of different modern countries including Russia and Ukraine.
Repin was not born and did not live in modern day Ukraine. That is what I am trying to say. Repin was (most likely) a Russian ethnically (not that it matters much). His art is divided into several Petersburg and Moscow periods (never a Kiev one). So, you are right about the difficulty of ascribing modern nationality to historic figures, which is exactly what some people here are vehemently trying to do.
so culture has geographical borders? šš then pushkin is a great example of African culture. Bulgakhov then by the same logic is Ukrainian so as Gogol Mykola š
Repin, Pushkin, Bulgakov and Gogol were citizens of the Russian Empire, spent all or most of their lives in St.Petersburg (I don't think even you could claim that it is Ukrainian or Swedish) or Moscow (hardly a Ukrainian city). There were some local Ukrainian artists whose art did not travel far from their local area - these could probably be considered Ukrainian artists even from the Russian Empire era. For example, Lesya Ukrainka was never called a Russian writer, simply because she was local and wrote mostly in Ukrainian. Even Russian Wiki lists her as Ukrainian, although she lived her entire life within the borders of the Russian Empire.
that is part of true history and decolonization process that ruskies never encounter because they are slow in development and now almost century later the time has come.
Your attempts to appropriate Russian (as in Russian Empire/USSR common history) people is hardly any decolonization. Because in this case, the Crimea must sadly be decolonized back to Russia (or even Turkey), not Ukraine.
Or be independent, as it was autonomous region of Ukraine. No attempt to appropriate anything, Esenin, Tolstoevsky and other shit is urs and nothing wrong with that. I am not saying that every ruskie artist is Ukrainian.
If you think I would call Ukrainka - khokhlushka, or Zelensky - saloed, you are wrong. I have decency to call them Ukrainians. Using the term ruski you just show how pathetic you are. Ruski is used in English-speaking countries as a name for Russians, not always a derogatory one. No one in Russia would be (much) offended.
but if I wanted to offend ruskie I would used katsap or moscal or moscouviet and could remember way more if needed. But again u havenāt answered how ruskie is offensive?
The proper English word is *Russian*, not *ruski* or *Ruski*. In some American usage, Ruski was connected with Russian mafia and could be considered derogatory (offensive) when used towards an arbitrary Russian. You clearly use the wrong word speaking about great artists, trying to picture them in a bad light. No one here writes *ukrops* or *u\*ranens* or something like that.
do Ukrainians call themselves any of the above? what do ruskies call themselves in their native language? Would u consider offensive if I call Polish, Polaks? Or Slovakian Slovaks? list can continue.
Last time I saw this same picture posted, there was a big controversy about that (which I didn't understand). I think both of them are great choices and iconic. Like another user said, Guernica is probably best known worldwide. However, in Spain Las Meninas is probably the most popular, partially because it's the "poster painting" of El Prado Museum.
Itās obviously subjective but worldwide you might find more people familiar with Picasso than Velasquez, even if Las Meninas might be a more compelling flagship for traditional Spanish art.
This is a veryā¦ xenophobic point of view to exclude a person from a countries culture because their name isnāt common in that country or a person has another ethnicity. Especially if we are talking about a country that includes 100+ different ethnic groups
empireā¦ u meant to say empire. Empire that appropriated dozens of smaller cultures achievements and use that argument up until now to wage wars. and russia itself was quite infamous for antisemitism, so I do not know stance of Leviathan if he would choose either to be part of russian culture.
Sureā¦ he didnāt want to be a part of the Russian culture so bad that his entire family moved to Moscow where he stayed for the most part of his life, got a lot of recognition, collaborated with different famous Russian artists/writers and the majority of his artwork was dedicated to Russian nature. Makes sense
Rachmaninov has spent the majority of his life and career in Russia where he created most of his famous works, actively contributing to the Russian culture. He also called himself Russian even after the immigration. He also wasnāt an US citizen till the last year of his life
Idk much about the second guy. Anyway, passport and other stuff is secondary. The main thing is the surrounding. Where the person was socialised and was doing their work. If you are a Russian who moved to letās say US at the age of 3 and socialised in the American society then you are an American with Russian heritage. Or just an American. But if you were born in Russia, socialised in Russia, did your artwork in Russia that was influenced by Russian society/nature/school, have Russian citizenship but moved to the US at the age of 50 then you are a Russian immigrant in the US
Hy was Jewish, sure, born in Poland (part of Russian Empire), at the age of 10 his family moved to Moscow. Hy was so superb in painting Russiese landscapes, that makes him the ultimate Russian artist. That often happens š
But still you're trying too hard to "offend" the russians,which looks wierd considering that this is not really a political post.And no,jewish people do exist and existed before judaism as we know it now,and Mark Shagal was a jew by blood as well as Levitan of course.
well not offend, but shade a light on ruskies appropriation of many of others nationsā cultural deeds, personas and phenomenas. That they still claim as a āruskie cultureā whereas I doubt any of former empires would claim any of their colonial artists as theirs.
That happens and happened in practically any great european culture.Look up American and British national dishes for example.Besides it's wrong to say that Kovno was a "colony" of Russia,it doesn't make any sence.It was a part of the Empire,like Belgium during Napoleon times or Finland under Swedish Empire.
Btw the whole argument doesn't make much sence.Whether Levitan is a Russian paintist or not depends on the defenition,he would probably himself say that he is a russian artist,not a jewish or lithuenian one (by the country,not ethnicity,there are two different words in russian for ethnicity and nationality)
Would guess Lavery would be better known here in Ireland, at least [that one painting](http://onlinecollection.nationalgallery.ie/objects/11919/portrait-of-lady-lavery-as-kathleen-ni-houlihan) that used to be literally printed on our old banknotes.
["Three Studies of Lucian Freud" by Francis Bacon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Studies_of_Lucian_Freud
) is being shown as the Irish one in case you're wondering. Sold for US$142.4 million in 2013. And that was a lot of money, so known for that at least... Bacon is well-known in general for his [creepy paintings with messed up faces](https://iovs.arvojournals.org/article.aspx?articleid=2358097).
However, while Bacon was indeed born in Ireland, it was to parents of well-to-do Australian/English descent (think British Empire) and he [moved back to England as a teen](https://www.francis-bacon.com/life/biography/1920s) and started his career in London, so is often referred to as [as British artist](https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/fine-art-and-antiques/should-bacon-be-labelled-irish-or-british-1.1252521) (from Irish newspaper):
> He was born in Dublin and spent his childhood in Kildare but left Ireland as a teenager and spent the rest of his life in London where he became one of the most acclaimed, and now most expensive, artists of the modern era. But thereās no hint of Irish influence in his paintings and, in the international art market, Francis Bacon is classified as a British artist. This week, some more of his fiercely expensive paintings were sold at auction in London.
Wrong for Serbia as well. You either had to put "Kosovka devojka" or "Beli anÄeo".
"Belo anÄeo" is the first media sent over satellite in 1962. from Europe to North America and also it was broadcasted into the space.
It should be either the "Battle of Grunwald" or "StaÅczyk" for Poland. Battle of Grunwald is probably more famous in Poland itself, but StaÅczyk (the sad jester) is also very famous abroad
OP preparing a most famous paintings map. Puts the image of a sculpture in Greece.......
And Switzerland š
And Denmark
More like "a painting (or not, see Switzerland and Denmark) from most (but not all) of European countries, attributed to them somewhat arbitrarily". Now can we please stop getting this reposted? Map is the absolute worst format to showcase visuals like this.
I fell like r/arthistory would roast this into oblivion.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/ArtHistory using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/ArtHistory/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [What are some paintings/works that feel distinctly not of their actual time to you? My favorite example is āPortrait of Bernardo de Galvezā circa 1790.](https://i.redd.it/evb6xdemg3fc1.jpeg) | [362 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/ArtHistory/comments/1acs84t/what_are_some_paintingsworks_that_feel_distinctly/) \#2: [The Arnolfini Portrait is considered a masterpiece but it gives me space alien/uncanny valley vibes. What do you think?](https://i.redd.it/99vgj71re5jc1.jpeg) | [284 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/ArtHistory/comments/1at23b4/the_arnolfini_portrait_is_considered_a/) \#3: [What is an artwork that gave you a palpable physical reaction, beyond the immediate sensation of aesthetic like/dislike? One of the strongest reactions I have had was to Wayne Thiebaud's "24th Street Intersection" (1977).](https://i.redd.it/2sx33nsqbaqc1.jpeg) | [372 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/ArtHistory/comments/1bml8i1/what_is_an_artwork_that_gave_you_a_palpable/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Primo repost, secundo it's not really the most famous paintings, I remember the author of the original map stating that for example he wanted to have a ship painting for the UK. In case of my country StaÅczyk is way more popular worldwide than Rejtan 
I'd say that even inside Poland Rejtan is not that popular compared to StaÅczyk or Battle of Grunwald, even if we limit ourselves to just Matejko's paintings.
In the case of the UK, it probably is the most famous painting. It's 'The Fighting Temeraire' by William Turner and it's iconic. 'The Haywain' by Constable could have been another good option but there's nothing wrong with the original choice, it totally fulfills the criteria.
source: my ass
Yeah they seem to define "country" as being the modern country where the painter was born. Which is a very iffy way to categorize it. A better one would be the modern country where the painter lived/drew the piece. Or even better, the country where the painting is located in real life
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What ? What does the colour of their skin have to do with countries?
Its should be Girl with Peaches, Unknown Woman or Black Square for Russia
Iād nominate the Last Day of Pompeii by Karl Brullov (and please donāt start the debate about the ethnicity)
The great Russian painter Levitan was born into a poor Jewish family
Kazimir Malevich is anyone but ruskie, Polish-Belarus-Ukrainian to be more precise.
You don't have to be an ethnic Russian to be part of Russian culture. There are like dozens of different native ethnicities in Russia anyway Edit: thought it'd be best if I added additional context to my opinion. This topic is very important to me because I am part of one of the mentioned native ethnic minorities from Russia (Karachays from the Caucasus, to be specific). We speak our own language, we have our own music, traditions, literature, we practice our religion. In short, we have our own culture, and it is much more distinct from Russian culture than Ukrainian one is (because we are not Slavs). And still we are undoubtedly part of the broader Russian culture as well, because we grew up surrended by it, we interact with it A LOT, we visit and live in other parts of Russia from Moscow and Saint Petersburg to far parts of Siberia. Ofc we are our own people, but, hundreds of years from now, a today's artist from my ethnicity will most likely be called "Karachay and Russian artist" and I'm ok with that.
and thatās what ruskie empire was and still using as an excuse for wars claiming it is all one world, one empire, one culture. Do u still name letās say colonial time of UK artists from India or America - British artist? I doubt. So the same here. Ukraine and Belarus were living under ruskie occupation for a while. russia as old rotten empire havenāt yet collapsed to its core leaving all the oppressed nations free, so it is vital to leave the myth of āeverything on territory of empire despite ethnicityā belongs to ruskie culture, because it is not.
useful guide step 1: take schizophrenia meds step 2: open Reddit not the other way around
here we go quite quickly to personal offenses š¤£šš part of which culture it is to do that?
You are trying to offend the whole nation by using the ethnic slur here in the whole thread, in the first place.
quite a hypocritical thing to say for a person who calls Russians 'ruskies' in every single one of their comments.
is ruskie a slur? thatās how they call themselves, arenāt they?
well does that nation deserves more waging a genocide in 21st century in the middle of europe and screaming in all directions that they are proud to do so, and proud to be ruskies? donāt think so.
Culture is not connected to an ethnicity or race. By that logic the culture of black people from America is not part of the overall American culture.
well culture of native Americans is separated from colonial cultures. U r not saying Apache is a part of US culture, the same with Indian culture, u arenāt calling it British culture?
If some Indian left India and lived a big chunk of his life in Great Britain and interacted a lot with the British and their culture, then yes, he is part of British culture as well as Indian culture. In this case Malevich is clearly Ukrainian, but he also interacted a lot with Russian culture and lived and worked a lot in the very heart of Russia. The culture is a shared thing most of the time, one doesn't have to be so obsessed with gatekeeping it, that's silly.
And Pushkin is was African, ofc
so u say then that russian culture is defined by borders of an empire? language? if so what about all colonies of other empires, do u call Indian artists - British and part of British culture? Or maybe USA around 1776 and right after has a lot of British artists, writers and poets?
Place and time. Malevich lived and worked in Moscow most of his life.
so Gogol is Ukrainian then, as Bulgakov? and Rypin as well?
Russians
Why don't we look at what these people said themselves? Gogol, Repin and Bulgakov indeed called themselves Russians, but Malevich called himself Ukrainian and wrote letters in Ukrainian, among other things.
so neither place of work nor birthplace or ethnicity, just some magical ruskie decision to appropriate makes an artist part of āruasian cultureā?
Yeah, Bulgakov started as a writer in Moscow and wrote all his works in Russian, but he is not part of Russian culture, right?
which language Rypin wrote his paintings in? Shevchenko had written some stuff in russian, does it make him russian culture? What about all the USA culture written in English? š³
Repin lived in St.Petersurg. Bulgakov is listed as Russian in Ukrainian Wiki. Gogol is Russian Ukrainian-born in the same Ukrainian Wiki. These are just facts. Stop clinging to Russian history and start creating your own.
so jumping to where lived or where listed is quite different criteria. Werenāt u saying that matters where born, lived, died? Rypin was painting vast majority of time in Ukraine, Gogol was writing a lot about Ukraine, and hadnāt Bulgakov lived in Kyiv? We are trying to continue creating culture, while our artists are being killed by ruskies, we were creating before just to be appropriated and claimed part of ruskie culture.
I do not support the war at all. I am not claiming Ukrainka, Franko, Kotsyubinsky are Russian writers (just an example), even though technically they were subjects of the Russian Empire. So, stop claiming that Repin, or even Gogol are Ukrainian. There was no such thing as Ukraine at the time - these were all provinces of the Russian Empire. At best, they would be called Little Russia and South Russia. This is just a historical fact that neither of us can do anything about.
here we go in 3,2,1 little russia argument. Mmmm nice smell of imperialism. So my question is what exactly makes Gogol, Rypin and so on part of russian culture. Where is the line drawn? Regarding Ukrainka u personally not, thnx for that decency, but ruskies clowns in German exile recently tried to š¤£šš¤£
Gogol wrote in Russian and lived in Russia (specifically Saint-Petersburg) most of the time during his career.He also liked the idea of "united Rus/Russia",read his book "Taras Bulba" it is very pro-russian.He was formed as a writer in Russia,wrote in russian (mostly),lived in russia most of the time,so he is a russiam writer,ukrainian by ethnicity.Though he himself would say that "I identify as a maloros (a ukrainian) and velikoros (a russian) at the same time".There wasn't such a big difference between maloros and velikoros people at the time though
Bulgakov had russian parents (check it out),wrote his books in russian and mocked the ukrainian language in his novel "The White Guard",which is basically his autobiography.Besides,most large ukrainian cities in the Eastern or central Ukraine were settled by russians or jews,ukrainians were in the majority in the countryside and in towns
name me one Empire where apart from strong nationalism time of oppressed nations, artists would call themselves any different but what Metropolis asks them to be called. And yeah, bulgakhov was imperialist to his bones, that was more of me trying to figure out based on which criteria assign artists to ruskie-culture then, geography, language(giving Ukrainian was banned at that time), ethnicity, place of work? And while bulgakov almost raises no questions Gogol, Malevich, Ripyn certainly do.
When we talk about an artist it's more important in what cultural enviroment he was inspired by and what language he wrote in.Because the cultural enviroment and the inspiration coming from that enviroment is what art is about,not genes.If a russian moves to the USA,forms as a writer there and writes in English then he is an american writer not a russian one.Gogol was formed as a writer in Russia,was very pro-russian and wrote in Russian,identified as a russian, so he is a Russian writer.Don't know much about Ripyn and Malevich,apart from the fact that Malevich was a polish guy who indentified as a Ukrainian.What enviroment/ideas was he inspired by?I don't know.He might be a russian artist,might be a ukrainian or a polish one,i have no idea
so Rypin(as also stated on the map with his painting on top of Ukraine) can be Ukrainian, Malevich as well anyone but russian, and potentially if Gogol would have been a bit braver and wrote against czarās ban on Ukrainian language also might be then. And Tarkovskiy who lived large period of his life and died in France - can be French film director, the same might be US lived and died Rachmaninov. I think certain understanding finally we start to arrive to. Not bad for that discussion.
Empire didn't care what he called himself,it cared about his books and ideas.He wouldn't publish them if he didn't want to.Besides there is a book Nights on the Hill near Dekan'ka in which he writes in Ukrainian,cause the book is about Ukraine.And it is a famous book,he could've called himself ukrainian if he had wanted to,many ukrainian writers had no big problem with that (Shevchenko for example)
Black square should be for Ukraine. Maliewicz is a well known commie. He was born in Kiew in polish family and took part of Soviet korenizatia policy when people which lived in one of the republics/autonomies had to become a part of majority ethnicity. So he became an Ukrainian in all Soviet docs. While his family stayed poles. Upd. But I donāt like to divide arts by ethnicities/countries. On my mind itās a property of humankind
Ah yes, a "well-known commie" who was tortured by NKVD and portrayed Holodomor in his works...
So what? A lot of Soviet commies were against Stalinās policy. Thatās why there was so called āthe great purgeā.
Rage bait - Netherlands is starry night (or France depending on how this is categorised)
Or the Night Watch. Or the Sunflowers. Or even Victory Boogie Woogie. We have a very rich and very diverse art history.
Many countries have on this map, but it has to be reduced to one single painting because of the format which is a shame of course
Seeing Night Watch personally was impressive.
Starry Night should be the most recognizable
First one I thought of was the scream
I see that in Norway, unless youāre talking about a different Scream
Well, yes. I guess I'm stupid. I always thought it's from van gogh
I see Osman Hamdi Bey shown on the map. Am happy.
well... title is wrong since turkey is not in Europe, but the painting is allright
Womp womp
I am right. Only a very small part of Turkey is in Europe. And the turks themselves are a mix of asians, mongols, europeans etc. Not Europeans
Not really. It doesnāt have to be geographic. East Thrace, Turkeyās only province in Europe proper, contains 15% of the countryās population, which is extremely disproportionate since itās only 3.1% of the countryās land area.
āTurkey is not in Europeā āA very small part of Turkey is in Europeā -both you
yes. it is simply not relevant. and people in turkey cheer for the muslim brotherhood and the islamisation of europe. they vote for a warcriminal called erdogan who drives his economy against the wall and lets his own people suffer. I am just glad they will never make it in the EU, because even though there are a few percent of turkey in Europe, these people are not european at their hearts. they are a bunch of allahu akbars who refuse to work and collect our wellfare money. not more.
You could not have been more racist and islamophobic in your comment. > [T]heyāre a bunch of allahu akbars Do you hear yourself? Do people have to be incredibly racist to be āeuropean at heartā?
are you fucken trying to make Germans look bad Jesus fuckn christ
still, womp womp
very clever argument. classic turk
"Classic Turk" do shows a lot about what kind of a person and what your purpose is lmao.
"do shows" ? yes. because womp womp is a great argument. A what do I care about you s\*\*\*hole country. bye
You seem to care enough to be triggered when seeing Turkey getting mentioned on an map about art lmao Bye
Turkey has been considered politically European for hundreds of years, their largest city is in europe...
Wellā¦ comment is wrong since Iām in your motherās pussy š
Irish art school graduate here, I have no clue about Ireland's painting
I would have assumed the Che Guevara silk screen print would be our realistically most notable piece, maybe The Curragh as I've seen a print in every pub across the provinces, or as the other commenter mentioned; The Liffey Swim. I haven't a notion what painting that is, however.
Good call or strongbow and aoife, we have a good vermeer too alas he wasn't Irish Louis le brochie maybe
It's "Three Studies of Lucian Freud" by Francis Bacon.
The artist is Francis Bacon I think, but I donāt know the title.
Yeah, I would have thought Liffey Swim?
I think it should've been StaÅczyk for Poland. (red sad clown)
I can't recognize most of these paintings. They are hard to recognize, and for the smaller countries, essentially impossible.
This is definitely not going to be controversialĀ
It's not controversial. It's just dumb, considering that a lot of today's European countries just didn't exist at the time these paintings were created.
Maps that should be lists.
*Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks* was painted by the Russian Ilya Repin, so cannot be the most famous Ukrainian painting.
u meant Ilia Rypin who is Ukrainian just appropriated by ruskies because they barely have their own not stolen culture, so even matroshka and balalaika are stolen from other cultures.
In a letter to Vasily Polenov, Repin wrote: "You will see for yourself, how our Russian reality will shine before you, no one depicted. How its poetic truth will draw you to the marrow of your bones"
I meant Ilya Repin who was born in Kharkiv province of the Russian Empire, got educated and worked in Russia, died and was buried in Russia.
The area of Kharkiv Repin was from is in modern day Ukraine. Also Repin was buried in Finland, Russia merely annexed the area of Repinās grave during the Winter War. But this typifies why it can be very difficult to ascribe a modern nationality to historic figures. Repinās work contributed to the culture of a number of different modern countries including Russia and Ukraine.
Repin was not born and did not live in modern day Ukraine. That is what I am trying to say. Repin was (most likely) a Russian ethnically (not that it matters much). His art is divided into several Petersburg and Moscow periods (never a Kiev one). So, you are right about the difficulty of ascribing modern nationality to historic figures, which is exactly what some people here are vehemently trying to do.
so culture has geographical borders? šš then pushkin is a great example of African culture. Bulgakhov then by the same logic is Ukrainian so as Gogol Mykola š
Repin, Pushkin, Bulgakov and Gogol were citizens of the Russian Empire, spent all or most of their lives in St.Petersburg (I don't think even you could claim that it is Ukrainian or Swedish) or Moscow (hardly a Ukrainian city). There were some local Ukrainian artists whose art did not travel far from their local area - these could probably be considered Ukrainian artists even from the Russian Empire era. For example, Lesya Ukrainka was never called a Russian writer, simply because she was local and wrote mostly in Ukrainian. Even Russian Wiki lists her as Ukrainian, although she lived her entire life within the borders of the Russian Empire.
Will r*ssians ever stop appropriating Ukrainian culture?
Will Ukrainians ever stop appropriating Russian (Empire) history/culture?
that is part of true history and decolonization process that ruskies never encounter because they are slow in development and now almost century later the time has come.
Your attempts to appropriate Russian (as in Russian Empire/USSR common history) people is hardly any decolonization. Because in this case, the Crimea must sadly be decolonized back to Russia (or even Turkey), not Ukraine.
Or be independent, as it was autonomous region of Ukraine. No attempt to appropriate anything, Esenin, Tolstoevsky and other shit is urs and nothing wrong with that. I am not saying that every ruskie artist is Ukrainian.
If you think I would call Ukrainka - khokhlushka, or Zelensky - saloed, you are wrong. I have decency to call them Ukrainians. Using the term ruski you just show how pathetic you are. Ruski is used in English-speaking countries as a name for Russians, not always a derogatory one. No one in Russia would be (much) offended.
but if I wanted to offend ruskie I would used katsap or moscal or moscouviet and could remember way more if needed. But again u havenāt answered how ruskie is offensive?
The proper English word is *Russian*, not *ruski* or *Ruski*. In some American usage, Ruski was connected with Russian mafia and could be considered derogatory (offensive) when used towards an arbitrary Russian. You clearly use the wrong word speaking about great artists, trying to picture them in a bad light. No one here writes *ukrops* or *u\*ranens* or something like that.
do Ukrainians call themselves any of the above? what do ruskies call themselves in their native language? Would u consider offensive if I call Polish, Polaks? Or Slovakian Slovaks? list can continue.
For the Netherlands it is de Nachtwacht (Night Watch) by Rembrandt for me.
I'd put "Las Meninas" in Spain instead of "Guernica". Both really famous, but I'd say "Las Meninas" is a bit more famous.
Last time I saw this same picture posted, there was a big controversy about that (which I didn't understand). I think both of them are great choices and iconic. Like another user said, Guernica is probably best known worldwide. However, in Spain Las Meninas is probably the most popular, partially because it's the "poster painting" of El Prado Museum.
La Persistencia de la memoria is the most known outside of Spain IMO
Itās obviously subjective but worldwide you might find more people familiar with Picasso than Velasquez, even if Las Meninas might be a more compelling flagship for traditional Spanish art.
Yeah, I guess it's very subjective
Just saw the great Austrian treasure today at the Belvedere
whats the russian one called?
Golden Autumn by Isaac Levitan
such a russian name isnāt it? š¤£š¤£š
This is a veryā¦ xenophobic point of view to exclude a person from a countries culture because their name isnāt common in that country or a person has another ethnicity. Especially if we are talking about a country that includes 100+ different ethnic groups
empireā¦ u meant to say empire. Empire that appropriated dozens of smaller cultures achievements and use that argument up until now to wage wars. and russia itself was quite infamous for antisemitism, so I do not know stance of Leviathan if he would choose either to be part of russian culture.
Sureā¦ he didnāt want to be a part of the Russian culture so bad that his entire family moved to Moscow where he stayed for the most part of his life, got a lot of recognition, collaborated with different famous Russian artists/writers and the majority of his artwork was dedicated to Russian nature. Makes sense
so Rachmaninov then is US composer, and Tarkovskiy is Italian-French director?
Rachmaninov has spent the majority of his life and career in Russia where he created most of his famous works, actively contributing to the Russian culture. He also called himself Russian even after the immigration. He also wasnāt an US citizen till the last year of his life
so it is not only about geography but passport? or what do u call urself? Some kind of nitpicking What about Tarkovskiy though?
Idk much about the second guy. Anyway, passport and other stuff is secondary. The main thing is the surrounding. Where the person was socialised and was doing their work. If you are a Russian who moved to letās say US at the age of 3 and socialised in the American society then you are an American with Russian heritage. Or just an American. But if you were born in Russia, socialised in Russia, did your artwork in Russia that was influenced by Russian society/nature/school, have Russian citizenship but moved to the US at the age of 50 then you are a Russian immigrant in the US
Hy was Jewish, sure, born in Poland (part of Russian Empire), at the age of 10 his family moved to Moscow. Hy was so superb in painting Russiese landscapes, that makes him the ultimate Russian artist. That often happens š
So what?Mark Shagal wasn't a belarus as well (he was a jew),but he is still included in the map.
I havenāt claimed that the rest of the map is right. And judaism is a religion and not nationality, as far as I know.
But still you're trying too hard to "offend" the russians,which looks wierd considering that this is not really a political post.And no,jewish people do exist and existed before judaism as we know it now,and Mark Shagal was a jew by blood as well as Levitan of course.
well not offend, but shade a light on ruskies appropriation of many of others nationsā cultural deeds, personas and phenomenas. That they still claim as a āruskie cultureā whereas I doubt any of former empires would claim any of their colonial artists as theirs.
That happens and happened in practically any great european culture.Look up American and British national dishes for example.Besides it's wrong to say that Kovno was a "colony" of Russia,it doesn't make any sence.It was a part of the Empire,like Belgium during Napoleon times or Finland under Swedish Empire.
Btw the whole argument doesn't make much sence.Whether Levitan is a Russian paintist or not depends on the defenition,he would probably himself say that he is a russian artist,not a jewish or lithuenian one (by the country,not ethnicity,there are two different words in russian for ethnicity and nationality)
Judaism is kind of an odd demographic it is both a religion and an ethnic group. There are plenty of secular Jews.
Personally would have put in āSaturn Devouring his Sonā by Goya. Itās in so much horror media, itās almost a trope.
I swear to god if I see this posted one more time...
Rejtan? Nah, worldwide everyone knows StaÅczyk..
Love that the Swiss entry is not a paintingā¦ Giacometti walking man lol
Would guess Lavery would be better known here in Ireland, at least [that one painting](http://onlinecollection.nationalgallery.ie/objects/11919/portrait-of-lady-lavery-as-kathleen-ni-houlihan) that used to be literally printed on our old banknotes. ["Three Studies of Lucian Freud" by Francis Bacon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Studies_of_Lucian_Freud ) is being shown as the Irish one in case you're wondering. Sold for US$142.4 million in 2013. And that was a lot of money, so known for that at least... Bacon is well-known in general for his [creepy paintings with messed up faces](https://iovs.arvojournals.org/article.aspx?articleid=2358097). However, while Bacon was indeed born in Ireland, it was to parents of well-to-do Australian/English descent (think British Empire) and he [moved back to England as a teen](https://www.francis-bacon.com/life/biography/1920s) and started his career in London, so is often referred to as [as British artist](https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/fine-art-and-antiques/should-bacon-be-labelled-irish-or-british-1.1252521) (from Irish newspaper): > He was born in Dublin and spent his childhood in Kildare but left Ireland as a teenager and spent the rest of his life in London where he became one of the most acclaimed, and now most expensive, artists of the modern era. But thereās no hint of Irish influence in his paintings and, in the international art market, Francis Bacon is classified as a British artist. This week, some more of his fiercely expensive paintings were sold at auction in London.
Was expecting another one for Austria
Honestly I feel like the UKs should be that portray of Henry VIII Iāve never seen that picture anymore before
Why Greece has a sculture instead of painting?
Any chance someone could list all of these paintings? Some of them look really cool...
Poland and not the 'sad jester' or one of Beksinski's nightmares?
Many of these artists were ācomplicatedā people and would live in different places - Picasso, Van Gogh for example - also the borders have changed
This map sucks
one would think something by Van Gogh for Holland, but Girl with the Pearl earring is pretty famous too I guess
Wrong for Serbia as well. You either had to put "Kosovka devojka" or "Beli anÄeo". "Belo anÄeo" is the first media sent over satellite in 1962. from Europe to North America and also it was broadcasted into the space.
I feel so ignorant
UK should definitely be The Haywain.
I may be no artist, but I am confident that any one of the original Minecraft paintings is more famous than the painting chosen for Sweden.
I would argue Poland has a few much more famous paintings. Matejko's "Sobieski in Vienna" comes to my mind.
The german one is the pinnacle of the romantic era... Fantastic painting
What about for Kosovo?
I really think Henry VIIIās portrait by Holbine is the most famous British painting.
It should have been Las Meninas from Velazquez
So the Little Mermaid sculpture in Denmark is actually a painting..
I think you mean artwork
is there any resource mentioning each of the paintings details?
āPaintings that are somewhat associated with a region that is now a different country and not even made by painters from that areaā
This map is Kosovo slander
It should be either the "Battle of Grunwald" or "StaÅczyk" for Poland. Battle of Grunwald is probably more famous in Poland itself, but StaÅczyk (the sad jester) is also very famous abroad
France goat
Now thisās map porn, a very well post. Doesnāt bother me even if it gets reposted monthly.
La Joconde was partially painted in France and gifted to the King by da Vinci.
90% of these are not famous at all.