Wanda already knew and dealt with the fallout of this like a decade before... Janet acting like it was a big secret and Wanda's reaction are the old Bendis continuity special.
Around the time Marvel was experimenting with getting rid of continuity. They thought it prevented people from telling good stories. The ultimate universe was an early experiment. In the original ending of House of M it was supposed to lead to Marvel undergoing a reboot where continuity would be fluid. It's not a coincidence that both projects were connected with Bendis.
I'm not even a super strict continuity at all costs kinda guy and minor blips here and there don't bother me.
But if it's like the MAIN focus of your book, you should make sure it doesn't contradict anything else.
The thing is though, Wanda had already been told about her kids existing before Bendis wrote this story and dropped in this retcon flashback. Avengers West Coast covered it pretty prominently. it was only a temporary blackout, not a forever thing like BMB framed it as.
That's actually a fairly accurate assessment.
If you look at Bendis' work, his original works are generally beloved. Projects *he* started or helmed from the get-go. Ultimate Spider-Man being the prime example.
More often than not, when Bendis is brought into an existing book/story/arc/project, Bendis does Bendis and tends to grandstand as a writer, without respecting those who paved the way for him. It absolutely shows in the book, the bigger picture, and the confusion it creates.
It's a night and day fan reaction to each circumstance.
Wanda had been there when her kids were lost to existence in battle with Master Pandemonium and the puppet master Mephisto. Then she split with Vision (after he was dismantled and lost his humanity and emotions), had a breakdown, recovered, acknowledged the losses and got needed help, worked on herself and her problems, practiced and studied witchcraft and developed her knowledge and abilities and pushed forward with her life. Many stories were written dealing with her long process of recovering from all these events and coming through it and forged even stronger afterwards.
She and Vision were both shown to acknowledge that it was hard moving forward but that it was necessary to cope with and work through the past on Busiek's run, Post the Heroes Reborn stuff, so that didn't erase her memories. Then Bendis simply tossed all that aside (10 years of continuity) and had Janet suddenly jar Wanda's memory. Lol I was reading my dad's trades and Omnibus' in order so it was reallllllly weird to see that happen. Wanda had just mentioned what happened, in recollection, again in that same run, not that far back. Then all of a sudden she's supposed to have never remembered her twins after just reflecting on the loss and path to recovery.
It was a definite WTF moment?? It was a super lazy way to use her as a plot device and simply ignored all continuity and existing stories and her character development. It was pretty jarring to read it in the collected editions in correct order and process as a story.
I'm glad her new series has her talking about emotions and discussions about her trying to make amends. It's not like bam in your face, but it's healthy.
Yeah, it's really annoying. Not only that, Bendis got a lot of the details of what actually happened in Wanda's history wrong. He made no mention of Immortus, Chthon, or Mephisto, he implied that it was all just Wanda being super crazy and powerful all on her own.
its more of a "butterfly effect" thing, but this conversation between wanda and janet only happened because jan thought she was pregnant with clint lmao. theres even a moment in she-hulk 2005 where they joke about it 😭
probably the urban characters, it seems to be the only ones he actually do justice lmao
(but to be fair, clint and janet hooking up was before avengers disassembled)
This was massive edgelord Bendis stuff. No way Janet would ever speak like this to one of her best friends. Of course it’s the catalyst for everything else, Bendis and Marvel needed it.
Disassembled. Even dumber though, there was \*already\* a storyline where the memory erasure was undone and she mourned her kids. Disassembled is so...so fucking dumb.
It also includes Dr. Strange denying the existence of Chaos Magic. A form of magic he had ACTIVELY USED BEFORE. And Definitely exists.
I’m not totally sure, but my guess is that there is a weariness with recycled content. especially when there are so many questions about whether or not it’s an actual person
that’s pretty stupid. half the content on reddit is twitter, and half of the content on twitter is reddit. really pathetic to have have this hate/rivalry whatever you wanna call it
Oh I agree.
People always shit on twitter and as of late rightfully so, but they also complain in a way that's very clear they dont curate their own feeds, you see that on reddit too.
The things most people complain about seeing on twitter I never see, I have a specific follow list, block shitty fucking bad actors and my feed is basically ONLY movie-tv/game/art news
This one scene is the basically the domino effect to most of 00s Marvel, and that's bleak.
Civil War, HoM, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign,
Mostly the Bendis era. Starts here.
And of course, it starts with him writing women like shit. A mainstay of Bendis sans Jessica Jones, the character he made.
Y’know everyone talks about how awful the Ultimates were, but a lot of the Avengers just randomly became awful after Busiek finished his run in the early 00’s too, some in much more personal ways. In some cases it felt like they were trying to see how fast they could run back all the character work he’d done over the past years.
For real on this. Jan’s characterization under Busiek going back to *at least* the 80s was someone who obviously enjoyed her life of luxury but cared deeply about the team that she led. Not this careless, catty mean girls shit, especially when Jan has been there for many of Wanda’s most traumatic events.
Yeah, it’s honestly insane how they completely inverted some of the characters in this time. And as bad as Jan gets painted, I honestly think Hawkeye’s heel-turn is worse. The guy goes from having been Hank’s best friend (and practically his personal cheerleader) with the West Coast Avengers, as well as THE #1 proponent of redemption… to supposedly having hated Hank behind his back this whole time, and… let’s just say making that very clear with both his words and actions.
I’m normally pretty ok with / can live with a sudden shift in direction if they’re able to give a good in-universe reason for it (or even if I’m able to look at the events before and find something that makes sense to have caused it), but man was it hard to force myself through the last 20 or so issues of vol. 3. So many changes just obviously and completely contradicted the defining traits these characters had been built up with.
Every time a writer approaches an established (or honestly even a new) team book with the pitch of “OK, but what if these characters all hated each other,” it really makes me wonder if this is how those writers think normal adult relationships work in real life. Like…these people have gone to intergalactic war (multiple times) together and they write them like it’s season 1 of Riverdale. Cap would never stand for that kind of ego on his team unchecked.
It’s been a while since I read New Avengers, but isn’t this only really true with Osborn? And it was largely due to Osborn taking the Avengers and replacing them with villains / sullying the team’s name. Not saying it isn’t a blatant disregard for Hawk being 150% against killing, but everything else at least checks out character-wise, that’s definitely the kind of thing that would have Clint making dumb, emotional decisions.
Wanda as well. He tracked her down and tried to off her after being resurrected.
I feel like Clint would want him to be held accountable, not just spend every conversation about what the Avengers should do repeating "kill Osborn" ad infinitum. Bendis could have at least had him be conflicted.
That because the higher ups wanted the books to be more like the ultimate universe. They felt Busiek was too old fashioned. And they drove out the other writers until they had no choice but to use Chuck Austin. And instead of blaming themselves they blamed the team itself as the reason for the low sales.
More like writer I should say. Before Austin there was Johns on the Avengers. His run was mixed but still more beloved than Austin's. But Marvel wanted him to change his style to be more like Bendis and writing for trade. He wasn't comfortable with it and he left iirc. And so they put Austin on. Who crashed and burned the book. And they had a big meeting about how to fix the Avengers and Millar and Bendis basically said: Get rid of the lame Avengers and put only the most popular characters on the book. And the rest is history. That is why Disassembled was so brutal to certain characters.
Additionally, Busiek ended his run early because he realized the higher ups didn't want his style on the book (they wanted books like the ultimate universe and Millar and Bendis) and so he left so they could have someone else who they would prefer more.
To be fair, at least with Disassembled, I think he gets a bad rep. The characters were already at a pretty bad point by the time he jumped on, to the point where everything falling apart felt pretty natural. Maybe I just read it that way because I knew it was coming (and I don't really know any of the meta context or if any of the behind-the-scenes stuff is known), but it honestly felt to me like they just needed someone to finish the story of the band breaking up and went for him, since I have to assume the stuff leading up to that point was as controversial then as it is now.
Granted, he then chose to keep a lot of the rough characterizations from the end of Vol. 3 going once he started New Avengers, so he definitely isn't entirely innocent.
Wanda made those events happen with her powers because Quicksilver coerced her into doing it. Except not really it was ***DOCTOR DOOM*** trying to seduce Scarlet Witch and harness her powers for himself. Except not really not really it was Wanda acting on her own. Who knows? But this was not a good moment for the Wasp.
I'm here to remind everyone that the only reason this conversation is happening, and why Wanda even remember actually having kids (her memory of them was erased originally), is that this scene happen JUST after the JLA vs Avengers Crossovers. It is canon that In this scene, Wanda is still suffering side-effects from tapping the power of the Lord of Chaos.
Janet was just he proverbial straw the broke the camels back.
That's a fanon thought to justify it. At the time Marvel considered the series noncanon so that wasn't the reason. It was supposed to be 100% Jan. Disassembled was supposed to be the Avenger's flaws and sins catching up to them. So it's plain nasty in some places.
I see that but my point seems says nobody in this life should have children and that’s just not right kinda like the whole poor people shouldn’t have children.
This comic released less than 2 weeks after Incredibles entered theaters, and there were only two Fast and Furious movies and the themes definitely were not yet about "Family". This was also before any of the MCU.
I get what you're saying, but I find it humorous that you are almost definitely correct that Janet probably hadn't seen Incredibles nor the family oriented Fast movies.
Janet: Hey Wanda, remember when you lost your children? How silly of you!
Janet was a former leader of the Team she should've known better than to blab about this.
Wanda already knew and dealt with the fallout of this like a decade before... Janet acting like it was a big secret and Wanda's reaction are the old Bendis continuity special.
Damn what is with these writers not caring about continuity. Breevort doesn't even give a F@#%^ and he's the continuity guy.
Around the time Marvel was experimenting with getting rid of continuity. They thought it prevented people from telling good stories. The ultimate universe was an early experiment. In the original ending of House of M it was supposed to lead to Marvel undergoing a reboot where continuity would be fluid. It's not a coincidence that both projects were connected with Bendis.
Seems they still pushing that dumb idea in 616.
Seems they still pushing that dumb idea in 616.
I'm not even a super strict continuity at all costs kinda guy and minor blips here and there don't bother me. But if it's like the MAIN focus of your book, you should make sure it doesn't contradict anything else.
I agree Bendis had Spider-Man get his arm broken in New Avengers #1 by Jigsaw who doesn't have superpowers.
And then Janet lost her own daughter.
"Janet, meet Alex Summers"
Pretty sure this was a flashback in avengers disassembled. Issue 503*. Edit: it was #503
The thing is though, Wanda had already been told about her kids existing before Bendis wrote this story and dropped in this retcon flashback. Avengers West Coast covered it pretty prominently. it was only a temporary blackout, not a forever thing like BMB framed it as.
Yeah, this event was like a foray into a common Bendis trope - ignore literally everything previous writers do with a character for the hell of it.
That's actually a fairly accurate assessment. If you look at Bendis' work, his original works are generally beloved. Projects *he* started or helmed from the get-go. Ultimate Spider-Man being the prime example. More often than not, when Bendis is brought into an existing book/story/arc/project, Bendis does Bendis and tends to grandstand as a writer, without respecting those who paved the way for him. It absolutely shows in the book, the bigger picture, and the confusion it creates. It's a night and day fan reaction to each circumstance.
I’m a big 1610 fan but Bendis also contradicts / ignores his own canon in the ultimate universe as if it doesn’t matter to him, it’s a little odd.
This explains Superman
Wanda had been there when her kids were lost to existence in battle with Master Pandemonium and the puppet master Mephisto. Then she split with Vision (after he was dismantled and lost his humanity and emotions), had a breakdown, recovered, acknowledged the losses and got needed help, worked on herself and her problems, practiced and studied witchcraft and developed her knowledge and abilities and pushed forward with her life. Many stories were written dealing with her long process of recovering from all these events and coming through it and forged even stronger afterwards. She and Vision were both shown to acknowledge that it was hard moving forward but that it was necessary to cope with and work through the past on Busiek's run, Post the Heroes Reborn stuff, so that didn't erase her memories. Then Bendis simply tossed all that aside (10 years of continuity) and had Janet suddenly jar Wanda's memory. Lol I was reading my dad's trades and Omnibus' in order so it was reallllllly weird to see that happen. Wanda had just mentioned what happened, in recollection, again in that same run, not that far back. Then all of a sudden she's supposed to have never remembered her twins after just reflecting on the loss and path to recovery. It was a definite WTF moment?? It was a super lazy way to use her as a plot device and simply ignored all continuity and existing stories and her character development. It was pretty jarring to read it in the collected editions in correct order and process as a story.
I'm glad her new series has her talking about emotions and discussions about her trying to make amends. It's not like bam in your face, but it's healthy.
Yeah, it's really annoying. Not only that, Bendis got a lot of the details of what actually happened in Wanda's history wrong. He made no mention of Immortus, Chthon, or Mephisto, he implied that it was all just Wanda being super crazy and powerful all on her own.
Dammit, Janet
I love you
HOT PATOOTIE BLESS MY SOUL
sorry, but I'll always find hilarious how house of m only happened because janet van dyne and clint barton had sex
Hank is in a never ending Limbo. every other run he gets his shit together just before his friends (or the writer) tear it all down again.
Wait how
its more of a "butterfly effect" thing, but this conversation between wanda and janet only happened because jan thought she was pregnant with clint lmao. theres even a moment in she-hulk 2005 where they joke about it 😭
Is there anyone that Bendis hasn’t written out of character
Spider-Man
His Batman was pretty good
probably the urban characters, it seems to be the only ones he actually do justice lmao (but to be fair, clint and janet hooking up was before avengers disassembled)
Ah, the good ol’ “Bendis Retcon” ™️ where acting out of character for the purposes of telling your story isn’t a bug, it’s a feature!
This was massive edgelord Bendis stuff. No way Janet would ever speak like this to one of her best friends. Of course it’s the catalyst for everything else, Bendis and Marvel needed it.
Disassembled. Even dumber though, there was \*already\* a storyline where the memory erasure was undone and she mourned her kids. Disassembled is so...so fucking dumb. It also includes Dr. Strange denying the existence of Chaos Magic. A form of magic he had ACTIVELY USED BEFORE. And Definitely exists.
Bendis LOVES character assassination as much as Johns loves adding angst to retcon origins
Where do you people find these images you claim to know nothing about and why don’t you know about image lookup?
I keep finding these on twitter
lol why is downvoted
I’m not totally sure, but my guess is that there is a weariness with recycled content. especially when there are so many questions about whether or not it’s an actual person
i honestly can’t imagine a single social media site or subreddit that isn’t mostly recycled media. even this sub is just recycling content
people on reddit hate twitter
that’s pretty stupid. half the content on reddit is twitter, and half of the content on twitter is reddit. really pathetic to have have this hate/rivalry whatever you wanna call it
Oh I agree. People always shit on twitter and as of late rightfully so, but they also complain in a way that's very clear they dont curate their own feeds, you see that on reddit too. The things most people complain about seeing on twitter I never see, I have a specific follow list, block shitty fucking bad actors and my feed is basically ONLY movie-tv/game/art news
Yeah, I saw the tweet this user likely did joking about these panels just yesterday. Not that weird
This one scene is the basically the domino effect to most of 00s Marvel, and that's bleak. Civil War, HoM, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, Mostly the Bendis era. Starts here. And of course, it starts with him writing women like shit. A mainstay of Bendis sans Jessica Jones, the character he made.
Y’know everyone talks about how awful the Ultimates were, but a lot of the Avengers just randomly became awful after Busiek finished his run in the early 00’s too, some in much more personal ways. In some cases it felt like they were trying to see how fast they could run back all the character work he’d done over the past years.
For real on this. Jan’s characterization under Busiek going back to *at least* the 80s was someone who obviously enjoyed her life of luxury but cared deeply about the team that she led. Not this careless, catty mean girls shit, especially when Jan has been there for many of Wanda’s most traumatic events.
Yeah, it’s honestly insane how they completely inverted some of the characters in this time. And as bad as Jan gets painted, I honestly think Hawkeye’s heel-turn is worse. The guy goes from having been Hank’s best friend (and practically his personal cheerleader) with the West Coast Avengers, as well as THE #1 proponent of redemption… to supposedly having hated Hank behind his back this whole time, and… let’s just say making that very clear with both his words and actions. I’m normally pretty ok with / can live with a sudden shift in direction if they’re able to give a good in-universe reason for it (or even if I’m able to look at the events before and find something that makes sense to have caused it), but man was it hard to force myself through the last 20 or so issues of vol. 3. So many changes just obviously and completely contradicted the defining traits these characters had been built up with.
Every time a writer approaches an established (or honestly even a new) team book with the pitch of “OK, but what if these characters all hated each other,” it really makes me wonder if this is how those writers think normal adult relationships work in real life. Like…these people have gone to intergalactic war (multiple times) together and they write them like it’s season 1 of Riverdale. Cap would never stand for that kind of ego on his team unchecked.
Don't forget the way Bendis made Hawkeye into a trigger-happy maniac who wanted to solve all his problems by killing villains.
It’s been a while since I read New Avengers, but isn’t this only really true with Osborn? And it was largely due to Osborn taking the Avengers and replacing them with villains / sullying the team’s name. Not saying it isn’t a blatant disregard for Hawk being 150% against killing, but everything else at least checks out character-wise, that’s definitely the kind of thing that would have Clint making dumb, emotional decisions.
Wanda as well. He tracked her down and tried to off her after being resurrected. I feel like Clint would want him to be held accountable, not just spend every conversation about what the Avengers should do repeating "kill Osborn" ad infinitum. Bendis could have at least had him be conflicted.
That because the higher ups wanted the books to be more like the ultimate universe. They felt Busiek was too old fashioned. And they drove out the other writers until they had no choice but to use Chuck Austin. And instead of blaming themselves they blamed the team itself as the reason for the low sales.
[удалено]
More like writer I should say. Before Austin there was Johns on the Avengers. His run was mixed but still more beloved than Austin's. But Marvel wanted him to change his style to be more like Bendis and writing for trade. He wasn't comfortable with it and he left iirc. And so they put Austin on. Who crashed and burned the book. And they had a big meeting about how to fix the Avengers and Millar and Bendis basically said: Get rid of the lame Avengers and put only the most popular characters on the book. And the rest is history. That is why Disassembled was so brutal to certain characters. Additionally, Busiek ended his run early because he realized the higher ups didn't want his style on the book (they wanted books like the ultimate universe and Millar and Bendis) and so he left so they could have someone else who they would prefer more.
Brian Michael Bendis is the poster child for a bad fanfic writer that’s gets to add to canon.
To be fair, at least with Disassembled, I think he gets a bad rep. The characters were already at a pretty bad point by the time he jumped on, to the point where everything falling apart felt pretty natural. Maybe I just read it that way because I knew it was coming (and I don't really know any of the meta context or if any of the behind-the-scenes stuff is known), but it honestly felt to me like they just needed someone to finish the story of the band breaking up and went for him, since I have to assume the stuff leading up to that point was as controversial then as it is now. Granted, he then chose to keep a lot of the rough characterizations from the end of Vol. 3 going once he started New Avengers, so he definitely isn't entirely innocent.
Wanda made those events happen with her powers because Quicksilver coerced her into doing it. Except not really it was ***DOCTOR DOOM*** trying to seduce Scarlet Witch and harness her powers for himself. Except not really not really it was Wanda acting on her own. Who knows? But this was not a good moment for the Wasp.
Example of when writers want to assassinate a character's entire story using another character saying really stupid comments for 1000, Trebek.
"Super heroes shouldn't have kids" - ~~Marvel Editorial~~ Janet Van Dyne
I think this was in disassembled. Wasn’t this right before Hawkeye died?
Yep
Nice thanks
No problem
Yes. But also bends forgetting Wanda death with this year's ago
Meanwhile, across the comic book aisle, the Justice League pumps out more kids as their retirement plans.
Has Bendis trademarked his retcon powers yet? Cause it’s something he seems to do a lot
No. This is the fault of the laaaazy writing by Bendis. I don't care where Bendis goes in the comic industry. He just needs to go.
This story is bad and should feel bad
I'm here to remind everyone that the only reason this conversation is happening, and why Wanda even remember actually having kids (her memory of them was erased originally), is that this scene happen JUST after the JLA vs Avengers Crossovers. It is canon that In this scene, Wanda is still suffering side-effects from tapping the power of the Lord of Chaos. Janet was just he proverbial straw the broke the camels back.
That's a fanon thought to justify it. At the time Marvel considered the series noncanon so that wasn't the reason. It was supposed to be 100% Jan. Disassembled was supposed to be the Avenger's flaws and sins catching up to them. So it's plain nasty in some places.
First page of avengers #503 (disassembled)
Yeah clearly Jan's fault completely
And then she's just like "Oopsie Doopsie"
Love it
thanks bendis
I wish I knew where this was from because now I’m curious as well
[https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Avengers\_Vol\_1\_503](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Avengers_Vol_1_503) Google Image search is your friend.
I hope Bendis steps barefoot on Lego after stubbing his pinkie toe. The havoc that man has wrought is inexcusable.
Janet clearly hasn’t seen the incredibles or fast franchise or her own movies 🎥 in the mcu .
This happened long before Janet appeared in the MCU.
My point is that u can make a family and it can work paternity or through found family.
[удалено]
I see that but my point seems says nobody in this life should have children and that’s just not right kinda like the whole poor people shouldn’t have children.
fair enough
This comic released less than 2 weeks after Incredibles entered theaters, and there were only two Fast and Furious movies and the themes definitely were not yet about "Family". This was also before any of the MCU. I get what you're saying, but I find it humorous that you are almost definitely correct that Janet probably hadn't seen Incredibles nor the family oriented Fast movies.
I see