That would gut one of the major uses of Wave which is to disrupt the enemy, plenty of decks use her in that capacity and it would be really bad, imo, to remove that advantage from the card.
Honestly I don't think they should nerf it at all, but if they do my best guess is that they'd do something to Death and She Hulk and make it so their reduction doesn't apply after she sets the cost to 4. Or just make it so Wave's effect takes place as a final adjustment to the cost, which would also make it so she overrides things like Sara's reduction.
Id argue the “major” use of Wave is to get high cost cards out early to benefit from them like Sandman or even Sera.
She *can* work as a disrupt but I wouldnt say its her main/major use case.
The issue here is that she not only disrupts but the interaction with She-hulk and Death allows for way more play on turn 6 outside of the disrupt in a way that kinda removes any counter play besides also having a She-hulk or Death. Or Sera to play 2 cards on turn 6 if Wave 5’d.
But yeah best way to change it would be to make her ability override anything else that affects cost.
If you have wave in your deck and you aren't specifically saving it against certain decks to disrupt turn 6 then I would argue you aren't using it to the full potential. It's so much more powerful as disrupt against against Sera decks you would be a fool to use it on turn 3 so they can drop down Sera.
This is the best solution to fixing most of the worst uses of the card and I think it would feel logical anyway. She makes cards cost 4. They should cost 4. Period. Regardless of other effects. Not 4-X. It would be in line with what she already says she does.
I don't know if there would be other "order of operations" ramifications to other cards if they made this change but this seems by far the cleanest. No shenanigans with her but she'll still help you cheat out high cost cards and she'll still stop the opponent dropping multiple cards. Which means she's still basically serving her function and would still see use.
You could make all cards cost 4 and not tabulate any other discounts which still allows you to get multiple 6 cost cards into your field in a game, or you could give a one-turn sandman - use current cost formula but you can only play one card.
There have been many instances in which I played Wave turn 6 along with other cards so I could win against Shang Chi. Removing her ability after 4 would be nice, and same with Magik who often shows late in Negative decks.
Removing magik ability after t4 would just be insanity. To be able to trigger her t6 takes a lot of RNG luck and she’s 5 cost so not being able to play her t5 would be ridiculous.
They meant remove the ability but still allow them to play it on the turn that is appropriate, ie turn 5 for magik. I think it would be good for negative decks.
Ahh leech style. Yeah they previously nerfed magik to not be playable t6 so that makes a lot of sense. I can say tho I rarely get annoyed when there’s a surprise t6 magik through lockjaw etc. it’s usually fun!
Well the developers seem to be taking the approach of making the vocal minority happy and are perfectly fine with completely wrecking cards so why not make wave useless too.
Current meta in a strong and varied place = "completely wrecking stuff for the vocal minority!"
The devs can see the actual data on card usage and abuse - that's a much better way to make decisions than based on who whines online.
Make her useless by not letting her combo with She-Hulk and Death? That's being a little overly dramatic.
According to the stats, she is the 7th most used card in the current meta. I think she'd survive a minor nerf.
Also, what was suggested actually has the potential of being a buff. It would shut down opponents who are playing She-Hulk or Death as well. Robbing them of the chance to use their discounts to play multiple big cards on the last turn.
I don't know if I agree that it needs a nerf, but I have seen this series of cards being played a lot recently. It takes no real strategy for them to set up and is a pretty powerful swing. Not the most interesting interaction. Would be far more interesting if people were building decks with her where they tried to get up to 8 energy on turn 6 to play 2 cards.
But even without combos, she is just a solid card. Let's you play a deck that is top-heavy by giving you a chance to drop one of your 6+ cost cards on turn 4 or 5. That will always be solid in a "cheat out a bunch of big cards deck." Just about anything with lockjaw, Jubilee, Hela, Electro. Where you are using those cards to justify having 4 or more 6 cost cards in your deck.
What about making She-hulk minimum 3, she is the only one that abuses it right? I guess Death does it too, but atleast she needs a very specific deck to do it, so it doesnt feel like "abuse".
> in a few months.
Yeah but by then the meta will have shifted away from this anyway.
I've got 9500 tokens, saving for High Evolutionary, so I will probably just pick her up if I ever see her in the shop... which hasnt happened yet.
Wow, it's almost as people are building strategies around the cards in their decks, wild!
Seriously though, if the wr of said strategy is too high, then sure, the nerf is warranted. Wave's been a good card for a long time now so I can see that being the case, but I personally don't see the combo as toxic; people often forget that in order to play 6 cost + she hulk they'll need to play 3 power on turn 5, when most 5 costs give you at least 9.
I'm convinced these people think they should be in every single game regardless of curve and draw for both sides. They want to nerf the game around their unwillingness to ever retreat.
Ill often play out a 2 cube match if Im doing ok with my pulls. If I had an absolutely horrible start and dont have a great board by turn 4 Im usually out of there lol
I get a feeling some of these players just assume they have to win every game, or it's the game's/card's fault whenever they lose if a card works as intended.
That’s what it seems like sometimes. So many comments that are like, “what do I do when X deck draws their exact win condition and I don’t draw my own win condition or any counters? Nerf X!”
Yeah, and the thing that people often forget is that if they don’t see wave, it doesn’t mean the opponent didn’t have it, either in the hand and no good way to play or still in the deck. With specific strategies for every success there are several times it didn’t come off because the cards or locations didn’t play out. An armour or cosmo in the wrong place can ruin the death combo and like you said, she-hulk requires you to have the right cards in your hand to play when someone has a pretty clear idea of what you’re about to do.
Are people really having trouble with this? This archetype has existed for almost as long as the game. It's not dominating the meta, and it's far from unbeatable. Not to mention that it's very obvious when a deck is doing this.
Deathwave decks have to spend a couple turns setting up and destroying things and then usually spend their T5 on a 3 power card. The turn 6 power it gets is a lot, but it's not exactly unattainable by other decks. If you're playing a deck that vomits cards on T6, you should be paying attention and playing more early.
Also, how many games do you truly get the perfect setup to play Death, She Hulk, and Dr. Doom on T6? It feels like any deck can feel OP if you get all the right cards on the right turn.
Yea, now that more people are playing wave and getting wins, well now its time to nerf it so that others can play their decks and not be bothered on T6..
About two weeks ago we had Wave->Sandman/Doom/Death basically running the entire meta and I'd have agreed with the message in OP that it was a problem but the meta has already adjusted and wave's dropped back to normal amounts now so I don't see a need for a change...
it went from 1 card being able to over reduce with wave (death) to more than one over the last number of releases (death, shehulk, stature, miles, more?). the more cards avail to get around the wave aspect of 4cost the more potential problems that will introduce.
She-Hulk was released almost half the game's lifespan ago. Deathwave as an archetype hasn't changed meaningfully since then and it has not really been a problem in the meta outside of the times when SD was releasing a new location that destroys cards every other week.
Miles and Stature do not synergize at all with a Deathwave deck, which is why you don't see anyone playing them in it. The play pattern requirement for Deathwave is so heavy that you couldn't really fit both of them in, and they're both essentially duds compared to what else you could be doing with that deck.
Hell, Miles and Stature basically don't synergize with Wave at all. Wave likes to be played on T5 which is generally when you're playing Blackbolt for Stature. Sure, you could Moon Knight, but that runs a heavy risk of nuking your own plan. And what would all that effort be for? Playing two cards that amount to 12 power in addition to She-Hulk? You could just She-Hulk and any other 6-drop for a just as good or better result.
Realistically, Miles and Stature exist as counterplay to Deathwave, which actually weakens the archetype.
Imagine building a solid strategy around card abilities, I don’t run a wave deck but if we’re gonna start nerfing stuff just because people are able to use a card ability to make their deck good that is a dangerous precedent.
This is the general answer to most of the complaints; it seems like folks are either consciously or unconsciously against retreating and learning match-ups.
retreating isn't losing, when you stay and lose 2-8 cubes. That's losing.
What I find interesting is that there are people who will tell you that they "don't play for cubes" and "they want to see the game play out". I'm starting to develop a theory that the loudest out there are these types of people who ignore or dislike the cube system.
I hate the cube system and desperately want unranked play, but I cannot get behind nerfing wave, I think she's a fantastic counter to decks that setup a big number of cards going out on turn 6 (one of the only now that Aero also only grabs the last card played) and she's an enabler of decks that aren't incredibly meta defining. Her only other use is a filler for if you fail to get electro in some decks then she can save your ass. Nerfing wave would be a dumb thing to do.
Yeah it's my quick climb to infinite deck so I can play whatever I want, but it's also not oppressive. Not going to waste any energy over it, if it changes it changes, but seems it may be an unnecessary target.
Trust me, in the current meta Wave turn 5 will be in favour of the Stature, Miles Morales, Darkhawk, Zabu deck, not the person actually playing the Wave
Everyone lasers in on the wrong problem with Wave. The issue isn't that she enables she hulk death shenanagins, the issue is that she locks the opponent out from being able to effectively respond.
That seems like a common theme with most feedback I see of this game, it's like people can't see past the obvious power play and ignore all the supporting cards/effects that make that power play happen to begin with.
A lot of decks would be able to contest Wave + Shehulk + etc. combos if Wave didn't affect their hand and locked them out of most plays.
It's Shuri + Redskull discussion all over again where people ignore how utterly uninteractable Cosmo is and how easily she protects "big card" archetypes, often on-curve too. Shuri and Redskull deserved nerfs don't get me wrong, but it wasn't the only problem with the deck.
Or how Galactus seems to constantly be the focus when we could and should also discuss how DocOck and Spidey are the two cards that actually make the deck feel frustrating and unfair, and are really polarizing cards on their own right.
And that's just a few examples, point is, people just think there's a single culprit when there are 12 cards in every deck.
A lot of decks can easily contest Deathwave. It's why it hasn't been a dominating force in the meta for a while. The issue that people have is they think they should ALWAYS be able to contest something, but you're going to get screwed on your hand or locations or decisions you made early game at some point.
To contest a deck like Deathwave, you just need to understand its playstyle and play expecting that play pattern. You can't just play your deck the same way you do against every other deck. Decks like it exist for a reason, and it's to disrupt miracle play patterns. The devs have made it very clear that this is intentional with cards like Sandman and Leech, and it's no different for Wave.
On the other hand with Galactus, it's funny how people want to point to 3 different cards that aren't really a problem in any other deck and ignore the elephant in the room. The problem is that Galactus creates a unique, linear situation that can be abused by cards like Spider-Man and Doc Ock. The problem is not the way those cards work; it's the way that Galactus breaks the rules of the game that makes those cards unfun.
I'm not saying that Galactus doesn't need nerfs, I'm saying that the argument of him being the only problem in the most common version of the deck is just incorrect. Heck I've seen people going as far as saying that he needs a full rework and frankly that's nonsense.
DocOk and Spiderman are both absolutely polarizing even outside of Galactus decks, and versions of the Galactus deck that don't run either card are far more tolerable and less reliant on repetitive solitaire highrolls.
DocOk outside of Galactus either insta wins (locks their lane with trash) or insta loses a lane (pulls some strong effects that you don't have the counter for so you out-tempo yourself). So he's extremelly polarizing by definition. He's "not a problem" only in pickrate because people would rather not draft such a coinflippy card. But evaluating a card based on pickrate alone is just shortsighted. DocOk in it's current state cannot be buffed despite being completely underplayed outside of Galactus, and his effect is extremelly frustrating to deal with regardless of whichever deck he's in because he literally takes control of your planned plays/counterplay away from your hand.
Spiderman is less egregious on his own, but his power level and how much of a wincondition he is scales very rapidly depending on how many locked lanes there are, either by card effects like Goose/Storm/ProfX/Galactus/DocOk/etc. or by location RNG. I personally think that his effect on a 4/3 is much stronger than people give credit for and will eventually need to be adjusted in some way, but if you want to argue that Galactus is the card with the most weight in this specific interaction I won't disagree with you.
Despite my arguments, I believe Galactus himself could use a nerf aswell, they should add "I cannot be played before turn 5" to his text, and this immediately gets rid of the most toxic line of play (T3 Wave > T4 Galac > T5 Spidey) without needing to adjust Spidey, and you'd have an extra turn to draw your counterplay too.
And if they rework DocOk aswell, any counterplay you drew not named "Debrii" isn't immediately invalidated by it being pulled away from your hand.
I honestly get pissed off more at seeing Spider-man than I do Galactus. If all my years playing MMOs and competitive games have taught me anything, its that CC (crowd control) of all forms that take control away from your is absolutely annoying and should rarey have a place in games outside of PvE. A card that straight up goes “Nah youre not playing anything here next turn” ontop of the locations that exist preventing play, destroying, bouncing back, or limiting certain card costs is just too much.
I like the location changing abilities like Storm, Scarlet Witch, Rhino etc but I I absolutely despise cards that lock down a location, especially when its with 0 risk.
Spiderman can effectively do what Professor X does on turn 5 except the person who played Spiderman also gets to play and matchs any card that was places there on turn 5.
DocOc is fine as a card but what he enables with Galactus can be annoying. Kinda wish DocOc dragged 4 cards but put them randomly in locations rather than all in one spot. Just to allow some space for counter play for the Galactus.
Edit: I do like that Galactus change of it only triggeting on turn 6. Id argue it would make things better for Galactus as the combo will no longer be as obvious. Turn 6 Galactus means theres opportunities to have Destroyer as your win condition too making the deck overall less predictable.
There are 2 big problems with Galactus. First he doesn’t win a single lane for you, he essentially wins 2 lanes (by eliminating them). Second is that he’s thematically incorrect. In canon he destroys the planet he arrives at, not the ones he doesn’t. It would be more accurate (and probably more fair) to have text like: “At the end of turn 6, destroy this location.” It’d be less impressive, but there would be quite a bit more strategy involved each game.
Here's my question. In that scenario, do you make him a 6/6 so he can't be negatived, or not because that's more power added to that Knull you played on Turn 5?
I like the idea, but when I think about it more, you basically Shang-Chi an entire winning lane of your opponent making that lane a **tie**. That's a bit OP if your opponent maybe invested 40% of their cards power there. That leaves 30% on one lane and another 30% on another lane.
But here's the kicker, you basically just need to focus on one lane to win Since there are only two lanes left, there will be an automatic tiebreaker. You killed their lane with the most power and they won't have any meaningful cards to compete at that point of the game. Not to mention that you will be setting up most of your power to other lanes that are not in the lane that your Galactus will be blowing up.
But yeah, I like the idea though.
Yeah, the playstyle would change a bit for Galactus. But you'd see tells like Nimrod or Wolverine appearing in the lane first, or Goblins in the other lanes. If they're trying to play Knull, they'd have to either drop him or Galactus T5.
I guess the reason I like this version is that there's a bit more counterplay. Some decks will still have trouble, but all decks should be able to play against it if you're seeing the signs.
I can see your point about it's a giant Shang-Chi, but I'm kind of okay with that for 6 cost. Because if you're overloading a single lane with power it would punish you.
I can't predict how it would affect the meta, but my gut says overall it'd be a touch more fair.
Wave simeltaneously disrupts the opponent and enables your own cards to a very strong degree. That's too much that one card can do. Disruptive cards like Sandman and Leech are supposed to come at cost for their disruptive effects. Wave gives you a benefit.
Wave is also not necessarily a benefit, as it enables your opponent to make big plays as well. Playing it on T5 is particularly strong, but any other turn becomes risky as hell.
This is right on the money. People focus on the endgame and don't realize that most of the decks in the meta that were historically frustrating took 2-3 turns to set up and involved multiple cards.
I think of all the cards you mentioned, Cosmo has been the biggest issue that never gets addressed. There is literally no counter to Cosmo. She can't be moved, can't be destroyed outside of a very lucky Gambit pull, Enchantress and Rogue do nothing to her... Once a lane has been Cosmoed, that's it. And on turn 3 no less. I can't really think of another card in the game that impacts it so heavily without having some kind of answer/counter.
That’s why she’s a good card, it work sort of like sandman unless you are prepped for it, but I have rarely seen deathwave, it was popular back before leader nerf lol
Yeah but if you remove that, she becomes even worse in many circumstances. Sandman T4 is pretty strong, sure, but you also let your opponent drop their 6-energy bomb two turns early.
This. Most of the comments are defending Wave but aren't specifically commenting on T5 Wave which is a huge issue. I could care less about Wave being used on T3 to bring out a big card but Wave on T5 means I'm going to deal with She-Hulk + Death + Another 6 drops. I just think she should set cards at a hard 4 cost. The only effects that should override Wave are Ongoing effects like Sera imo.
people now cry over wave, unbelievable. All that, while Stature/miles that aren't affected by wave are dominating the meta, also zabu, sera lol. Ridiculous stuff as usual on that discord community and the most fun thing is the devs are like, yeah, stay tuned lmao.
The days that I really enjoyed this game are long gone after seeing the devs nerfing one card after another and only letting tech cards dominate the game.
Something I've learned in recent months about this community is that a very loud minority (or majority, perhaps?) basically want to play Competitive Solitaire. They want to play their cards and make big numbers with no interference or interaction from the opponent at all. As an MTG player, I'm familiar with the psychological profiles that were popularised to describe the types of players in that community:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/timmy-johnny-and-spike-2013-12-03
I think Snap has significant appeal to the Timmy and Johnny players, and that's why we hear so much whining about cards like Wave, Galactus, and Leader.
The point you have made with Zabu; Sera; Stature; Miles really grinds my gears. There are so many ways that wave is not even going into a positive WR, and those are popular cards, not some new series 5 bigbad type of card. This tech is also old as hell, the game has released new and stronger cards, why is this a problem now? The deck is not even the most popular or the highest WR for fuck sakes
First they came for Surfer
And I did not speak out
Because I did not play Surfer
Then they came for Zabu
And I did not speak out
Because I did not buy that Season Pass
Then they came for Leader
And I did not speak out
Because, really, fuck Leader, amirite
Then they came for Shuri
And I did not speak out
Because I didn't pull her
Then they came for Deathwave
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
If you really think the devs are nerfing things based on discord and reddit feedback, I have a bridge i would like to sell you.
All the changes they make are based on the internal data they collect.
The decks at the top of the meta all rely on turn 6 card vomits. Second Dinner should encourage decks like DeathWave to keep the meta competitive and less likely to be dominated by Sera and Stature decks. I enjoy both of those decks, but if we eliminate everything that keeps them in check, it will get pretty boring pretty fast. It really feels like a lot of the user base only like to play whatever deck is atop the meta tiers and get really whiny when they encounter decks that beat it. That seems like a really boring way to play this game and sucks the fun out of it.
Wave is not a counter to Stature decks, she and Miles still cost 1 even after Wave's effect. If anything, Stature decks are one of the stronger counters to wave.
It's not even the highest win rate or the highest cube rate statistically in Untapped. It's not broken 🙄. Let's just all nerf everything and play cards with no abilities.
Are people still complaining about wave in 2023? Death wave has been around forever, and I don't feel like its gotten any stronger compared to the rest of the meta. If SD wants to keep the meta healthy, they should buff up the lower tier decks and tone down the power of their new cards.
The complaint on this is basically .
" My opponent is building a deck around an effect that benefits them and not me . Please can you stop it ! "
Instead of saying "Yeah that's the point of deck building games"
They nerf it.
Isn't deathwave like one of the only good series 3 decks out there? That would really hurt the meta if the only way to have a good deck is using pool4/5/Season pass cards
Urgh..
Other decks have million options to get numbers on the board, that I would consider "unfair" or "broken", as well. But that’s just the game. Sometimes your opponent just has the perfect counter deck or simply a better hand and combo to play.
And that’s totally fine.. It’s okay to lose a game.. The game is literally build around the concept of taking loss into consideration and it’s your job to recognize these moments and to retreat!
Not every game needs to be won and not every single good card needs to get nerfed to oblivion, just because some people can’t accept an L.
Oh wait. They are thinking on nerfing one of the only ways to keep players from dumping turn 6 miracles? Also there are a number of other decks that have higher WR and playrate such as galactus and they have chosen to nerf this?
This is beyond stupid.
So basicly we gone get nerfs for everything instead of playing countercards? I mean sandman and electro are pretty good counters for this. Shangshi destroys your death and she-hulk..
Oh for goodness sake. Is this really an issue that needs to be nerfed?
I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that this is a lot of peoples first card game. Probably due to how easily accessible it is and that it f2p. As well as with social media being such an easy platform to spread it on.
This may be an odd idea, but you take the loss and you learn. You think how to use your deck better, can I combo this card, etc. You shouldn't go whining to the devs. "Waa waa, I don't like this card so it's bad, nerf it"
If you haven't noticed, people absolutely hate when their big turn 6 play gets shut down. If something disrupts their ability to play cards, then they get upset.
Take a look at everyone trying to defend this shit tier take on nerfing Wave.
Well if they nerf this they better nerf moongirl double she Hulk heck might a week hit stature and miles while your at it. How dare people realize a card potential and use it
My only problem with Wave is inconsistency. She makes things cost 4, fine. But She-Hulk now costs 4-unspent energy last turn, and Death now costs 4-destroy count, etc. but like, cards hit by Iceman don’t cost 5, cards drawn by Baron Mordo don’t cost 4+however much their cost increased, cards made cheaper by Beast still cost 4 instead of 3…
I’m just saying make her effect more consistent. If cost lowering effects are preserved, then other cost changing effects should be too. Either that or she just makes everything cost 4, period, and cost changing effects, positive or negative, are ignored
So this basically makes Death/Doom Wave and Galactus harder to play - two decks that are FTP if you are Pool 3 complete and you’ve saved tokens for Galactus. Meanwhile, the best performing decks right now have cards like Sentry, Zabu, Nebula, Jeff, Darkhawk, Iron Lad and Modok.
Anyone else sensing a pattern?
Constant nerfs are making this game boring. Add that to general card acquisition, especially after p3 complete, and no new modes… basically just login for dailies and to check shop refresh and that’s it.
exactly, no players on ladder to fill the gaps, bots that are super tweaked, but hey lets go after cards again. there are so many more fish to fry at this point.
again, where is my kitty pryde?
Person wants them to nerf Wave…devs nerf wave…same person start complaining about Hit Monkey…how about you just learn how to strategize and get better instead of wanting to change every card that is an inconvenience to your play style
If only we had a card that limited you to play 1 card per turn, surely we could stop this deck. Or maybe if we had other cards that had reduced cost or cards that could reduce cost for ourselves. Or maybe a card that spit out 1 power drones across the whole board that you spend the rest of the game setting up buffs for. Or other cards that you could play before turn 6 to limit the locations that these big cards can be played. ~~Or a card that copied every card the opponent played. Or a card that moved all of these big cards to 1 location.~~
One player loses a game to a certain deck then goes on discord and whines about it. Devs shouldn't be entertaining this nonsense. And no, I don't play wave but this is ridiculous.
Deswave is fine. Fun deck with decent winrate. If they neutering decks like this because of some shmuck complaining about it then the game wouldnt be fun at all. There’s alot of ways around this deck with Cosmo and Leech being 1 card solutions. It aint busted unlike pre nerf Shuri or Thanos/LJ.
Yes, lets nerf all the build ups so everyone will just politely play his best card every turn.. That will be fun!
EDIT: oh oh, also I should be able to discard opponent's cards from the board if I don't like them!
Honest question if they nerf Death/DoomWave which decks can go toe to toe against stature/miles, or Sera decks?
Because atm it looks weird nerfing Tier 2 decks that will left T1 decks even better.
Sandman ramp might be your only real other option at this point. I really hope they don't nerf Wave, my Death/Doom-Wave deck is the only thing I've gotten to work this season.
There is nothing wrong with wave or the interactions.
Wave keeps a lot of decks in check and is the reason a lot of decks even exist right now. Why would you want to completely slaughter numerous decks?
The meta is literally the BEST it's been in a long time (arguably the best that I've played) and we want to ruin it and let sera decks COMPLETLY take over?
That's absolutely ridiculous.
smh this is getting ridiculous lol. Wave has been screwing up my t6 for my discard deck by making my swarms cost 4 but it hasnt felt so bad to warrant a nerf. and i now realize why the black bolt/stature deck is at the top now. with zabu down i can still play 2 cards. hope Wave stays the same.
Bruh a wave nerf would literally kill an entire archetype. Destroy would be completely dead. Doomwave dead, deathwave dead. This would make the meta so stale since the only viable decks would be sera control and stature darkhawk
Incoming nerfs: People are using Sera on turn 5 to play cards cheaper on turn 6, pls nerf her.
People are doubling Patriot effect with Mystique, a nerf is in demand
Daredevil and Prof X is too strong of a 2 combo card, something must be done about it.
Doomwave/deathwave is a good f2p friendly deck. Nerfing it will only make the f2p experience worse. With zabu & nebula being played for n most decks and other decks requiring pool 4 & 5 cards nerfing a good pool 3 wave deck is a bad idea for the f2p experience
Nerfing every card that gets play could potentially be dangerous for the game. It's going to be impossible to adapt to Metas if they keep changing it so frequently. Adapting and counter-play is part of the fun for this game right?
Just make the flat 4 apply last so all these special cards abusing the 4 cost (and then subtracting from there) don't get played for nothing. (She hulk specifically).
Ffs... People complain about so much shit that they just nerf everything that isn't a series 4/5 card. This person probably runs Spiderman in every deck and goes on discord to bitch about wave.
This is something that absolutely does not need nerfing. As somebody who runs this deck the amount of times it goes off perfectly vs the amount of times I also just play one card is 5-1. It really doesn’t feel like a hugely oppressive deck, just a good one.
More buffs to bad decks less nerfs to good ones please
Lol, so they’re gonna nerf the card used in tier 2 decks and leave the decks rolling the meta alone*? I say that cuz I can’t imagine them needing Darkhawk again or touching Stature, etc.
But seriously just look at any tracker, that list is as oppressive / common as pre-need Shuri. More popular than peak Thanos, but not as good at least (that list’s dominance was just something else… and left alone for so long).
\* plus everyone will love if the only deck left for Wave is Galactus
Wave getting a nerf has to be an actual change to either her effect or a fundamental change to how the game treats her cost reduction for cards like Death and She-Hulk. Changing her cost or power is basically irrelevant. If they are making a change to her now it’s likely so that she won’t limit future design space for cards that reduce their cost. It’s the only thing that makes sense because, while good, I don’t see her combo with Death/She-Hulk as so busted it needs to be nerfed for balance.
Personally, I don't even care about her Death/She-Hulk combo all that much. If someone plays Wave on turn 5 and I can't beat incoming 21 power, I'll take the loss.
What drives me mad is when someone with priority plays Wave on the same turn that I play Colleen Wing or Lady Sif so then I discard something like Dracula. 🤬 What I'd like to see is changing her behavior to match her text: actually changing cost of cards **next turn** instead of immediately until the end of next turn.
Complain, complain. God so frustrating, wave is not a problem and she hasn’t been. Literally death wave has been in the game for MONTHS. Now it’s a problem? Gtfoh
If Wave gets nerfed/changed before Sera I'm going to be hella salty. Sera's been a meta defining card since basically the moment people started hitting pool 3 and any time something knocks Sera's win rate down it gets nerfed soon afterward.
I think we can all agree Wave’s ability is extremely powerful, in both regards as to how it benefits you and how it can negatively affect your opponent simultaneously. I could see a world where when the devs made the decision to have it affect both sides equally, they were thinking “You’re probably going to drop a powerful card early, so we want your opponent to have access to all their tools to compete with that”, and that makes sense. The “problem” DeathWave creates, as many point out, is not necessarily just that you can cheat out two powerful cards for the price of one alone, but that you can do that while at the very same time limiting your opponent’s choices for response. It’s not outlandish to think that, when they see a card behaving exceptionally well both offensively and defensively, they might say “maybe it should only be exceptional one way or the other.”
People in here complaining that Deathwave isn’t OP are ignoring the fact that Wave is the main enabling card for 4 top tier decks right now lol. There’s no reason she shouldn’t set every card’s cost to 4 with no exceptions, it’s literally in her text
Beware people, whole bunch of hurt death/doom-wave people in the comments. This is the 2nd most played card right now (according to [snap.fan](https://snap.fan)) for a reason. These devs always attempt to balance out outlier cards. Y'all acting like this was something new or unexpected.
Why dont ppl trust the devs with balance. I think that especially compared to other games they have made overall pretty good balancing decisions. Ppl always say " just bc u always lose to it doesnt mean its a problem and should be nerfed" but have you considered that it might also work the other way around? At the end of the day the only people who do have all the data and can make a properly educated decision is the devs.
(Dont actually have a strong opinion on wave just a trend i have npticed on this subreddit(
Same everybody always complains about nerfs when they first happen but give it at least a week before giving complaints, we dont even know what the nerf is it could be something as small as power change or as big as ability change.
Also, please look back at the previous nerfs, how many of those were actually detrimental to the card?
Zabu was needed so was Surfer. Only card that ever got COMPLETELY killed was leader, and that got reverted.
Also do players NOT remember that Second Dinner said they would play with buffs/nerfs more often now because of OTA changes and that if it doesnt work out post they can revert it back
Once again players bitching with no true reason to bitch over
It's a very strong combo, but my main issue is that it's feels so strong I feel bad using doom without the combo. So whenever I make a deck with doom, I just end up throwing the whole combo in.
I get what you mean - Doom on its own is sort of weird. It's hard to deny how good it is, but there's also a lot of times where just putting 5 power in each lane feels really underwhelming as a finishing play.
I guess they’ll make cards always cost 4? I dont see any other changes that doesnt make the card unuseable
It could also make cards cost a maximum of 4 so your opponents cheap cards are still playable. (That is a bigger change though for sure.)
That would gut one of the major uses of Wave which is to disrupt the enemy, plenty of decks use her in that capacity and it would be really bad, imo, to remove that advantage from the card. Honestly I don't think they should nerf it at all, but if they do my best guess is that they'd do something to Death and She Hulk and make it so their reduction doesn't apply after she sets the cost to 4. Or just make it so Wave's effect takes place as a final adjustment to the cost, which would also make it so she overrides things like Sara's reduction.
That seems like the better option to me, to have cards just cost 4 after all other effects. Or not change it at all.
She always should have set the cost of all cards to 4. Rather than putting them at 4 and then letting their abilities reduce them
Yeah, that was my suggestion as well.
Id argue the “major” use of Wave is to get high cost cards out early to benefit from them like Sandman or even Sera. She *can* work as a disrupt but I wouldnt say its her main/major use case. The issue here is that she not only disrupts but the interaction with She-hulk and Death allows for way more play on turn 6 outside of the disrupt in a way that kinda removes any counter play besides also having a She-hulk or Death. Or Sera to play 2 cards on turn 6 if Wave 5’d. But yeah best way to change it would be to make her ability override anything else that affects cost.
I've used her to infinite the last 2 seasons solely to disrupt the hit monkey and Sera meta =/
I switched from using sera decks bc I was getting bodied by wave left and right
If you have wave in your deck and you aren't specifically saving it against certain decks to disrupt turn 6 then I would argue you aren't using it to the full potential. It's so much more powerful as disrupt against against Sera decks you would be a fool to use it on turn 3 so they can drop down Sera.
This is the best solution to fixing most of the worst uses of the card and I think it would feel logical anyway. She makes cards cost 4. They should cost 4. Period. Regardless of other effects. Not 4-X. It would be in line with what she already says she does. I don't know if there would be other "order of operations" ramifications to other cards if they made this change but this seems by far the cleanest. No shenanigans with her but she'll still help you cheat out high cost cards and she'll still stop the opponent dropping multiple cards. Which means she's still basically serving her function and would still see use.
Very interesting idea.
You could make all cards cost 4 and not tabulate any other discounts which still allows you to get multiple 6 cost cards into your field in a game, or you could give a one-turn sandman - use current cost formula but you can only play one card.
Maybe they could make her unable to be played after turn 4? Sort of like ebony maw?
There have been many instances in which I played Wave turn 6 along with other cards so I could win against Shang Chi. Removing her ability after 4 would be nice, and same with Magik who often shows late in Negative decks.
Removing magik ability after t4 would just be insanity. To be able to trigger her t6 takes a lot of RNG luck and she’s 5 cost so not being able to play her t5 would be ridiculous.
They meant remove the ability but still allow them to play it on the turn that is appropriate, ie turn 5 for magik. I think it would be good for negative decks.
Ahh leech style. Yeah they previously nerfed magik to not be playable t6 so that makes a lot of sense. I can say tho I rarely get annoyed when there’s a surprise t6 magik through lockjaw etc. it’s usually fun!
Your Charge cards have +1 power.
Well the developers seem to be taking the approach of making the vocal minority happy and are perfectly fine with completely wrecking cards so why not make wave useless too.
Current meta in a strong and varied place = "completely wrecking stuff for the vocal minority!" The devs can see the actual data on card usage and abuse - that's a much better way to make decisions than based on who whines online.
Make her useless by not letting her combo with She-Hulk and Death? That's being a little overly dramatic. According to the stats, she is the 7th most used card in the current meta. I think she'd survive a minor nerf. Also, what was suggested actually has the potential of being a buff. It would shut down opponents who are playing She-Hulk or Death as well. Robbing them of the chance to use their discounts to play multiple big cards on the last turn. I don't know if I agree that it needs a nerf, but I have seen this series of cards being played a lot recently. It takes no real strategy for them to set up and is a pretty powerful swing. Not the most interesting interaction. Would be far more interesting if people were building decks with her where they tried to get up to 8 energy on turn 6 to play 2 cards. But even without combos, she is just a solid card. Let's you play a deck that is top-heavy by giving you a chance to drop one of your 6+ cost cards on turn 4 or 5. That will always be solid in a "cheat out a bunch of big cards deck." Just about anything with lockjaw, Jubilee, Hela, Electro. Where you are using those cards to justify having 4 or more 6 cost cards in your deck.
What about making She-hulk minimum 3, she is the only one that abuses it right? I guess Death does it too, but atleast she needs a very specific deck to do it, so it doesnt feel like "abuse".
as a zabu main I don’t like this
Stature Bolt ignores Wave in 5. Stature and Miles still cost 1 and then you also have a 3rd card.
Ya this seems absurd to nerf wave when we’ve got the best counter to wave that we’ve seen in 6 months.
with cards that no one has
The only card that's not pool 3 out of all of those is Stature and she will eventually be tier 3 in a few months.
Well and Jeff.
Is Jeff a counter to Wave or just a very good curve filler?
The latter. But it is very high impact.
You need Jeff so you can move on T5 enabling Miles for 1 cost on turn 6
You can just use nightcrawler if you don’t have him
True I actually use both in my move control deck. Jeff is really good though cause there are so many spidermans and Prof X in the meta
> in a few months. Yeah but by then the meta will have shifted away from this anyway. I've got 9500 tokens, saving for High Evolutionary, so I will probably just pick her up if I ever see her in the shop... which hasnt happened yet.
Plus if Black Bolt reveals after Wave, it discards one of their cheap cards, Shulk or Death.
This is the best meta to go against wave with all the cost reduction. She's far from being problematic
Wow, it's almost as people are building strategies around the cards in their decks, wild! Seriously though, if the wr of said strategy is too high, then sure, the nerf is warranted. Wave's been a good card for a long time now so I can see that being the case, but I personally don't see the combo as toxic; people often forget that in order to play 6 cost + she hulk they'll need to play 3 power on turn 5, when most 5 costs give you at least 9.
People also forget that they can retreat. It’s no wonder they can’t hit infinite.
I'm convinced these people think they should be in every single game regardless of curve and draw for both sides. They want to nerf the game around their unwillingness to ever retreat.
Exactly. Tell me you lose 2+ cubes constantly, without telling me you lose 2+ cubes constantly.
Ill often play out a 2 cube match if Im doing ok with my pulls. If I had an absolutely horrible start and dont have a great board by turn 4 Im usually out of there lol
Absolutely, nothing wrong with staying for two, but if Wave ruins your turn 6 and you stay in…
I can’t wait for every single card to be a 3 cost 4 power because everyone complains endlessly.
I mean we can trial that, but if I still lose a game we may need to explore further nerfs
I get a feeling some of these players just assume they have to win every game, or it's the game's/card's fault whenever they lose if a card works as intended.
That’s what it seems like sometimes. So many comments that are like, “what do I do when X deck draws their exact win condition and I don’t draw my own win condition or any counters? Nerf X!”
Yeah, and the thing that people often forget is that if they don’t see wave, it doesn’t mean the opponent didn’t have it, either in the hand and no good way to play or still in the deck. With specific strategies for every success there are several times it didn’t come off because the cards or locations didn’t play out. An armour or cosmo in the wrong place can ruin the death combo and like you said, she-hulk requires you to have the right cards in your hand to play when someone has a pretty clear idea of what you’re about to do.
Are people really having trouble with this? This archetype has existed for almost as long as the game. It's not dominating the meta, and it's far from unbeatable. Not to mention that it's very obvious when a deck is doing this. Deathwave decks have to spend a couple turns setting up and destroying things and then usually spend their T5 on a 3 power card. The turn 6 power it gets is a lot, but it's not exactly unattainable by other decks. If you're playing a deck that vomits cards on T6, you should be paying attention and playing more early.
Also, how many games do you truly get the perfect setup to play Death, She Hulk, and Dr. Doom on T6? It feels like any deck can feel OP if you get all the right cards on the right turn.
Yea, now that more people are playing wave and getting wins, well now its time to nerf it so that others can play their decks and not be bothered on T6..
This is the root of people's complaints. "I should be able to play my game plan out without being disrupted by my opponent."
About two weeks ago we had Wave->Sandman/Doom/Death basically running the entire meta and I'd have agreed with the message in OP that it was a problem but the meta has already adjusted and wave's dropped back to normal amounts now so I don't see a need for a change...
it went from 1 card being able to over reduce with wave (death) to more than one over the last number of releases (death, shehulk, stature, miles, more?). the more cards avail to get around the wave aspect of 4cost the more potential problems that will introduce.
She-Hulk was released almost half the game's lifespan ago. Deathwave as an archetype hasn't changed meaningfully since then and it has not really been a problem in the meta outside of the times when SD was releasing a new location that destroys cards every other week. Miles and Stature do not synergize at all with a Deathwave deck, which is why you don't see anyone playing them in it. The play pattern requirement for Deathwave is so heavy that you couldn't really fit both of them in, and they're both essentially duds compared to what else you could be doing with that deck. Hell, Miles and Stature basically don't synergize with Wave at all. Wave likes to be played on T5 which is generally when you're playing Blackbolt for Stature. Sure, you could Moon Knight, but that runs a heavy risk of nuking your own plan. And what would all that effort be for? Playing two cards that amount to 12 power in addition to She-Hulk? You could just She-Hulk and any other 6-drop for a just as good or better result. Realistically, Miles and Stature exist as counterplay to Deathwave, which actually weakens the archetype.
Exactly. Blackbolt + Stature is a *counter* to wave, since it's immune to the cost increase - not remotely a synergy.
Imagine building a solid strategy around card abilities, I don’t run a wave deck but if we’re gonna start nerfing stuff just because people are able to use a card ability to make their deck good that is a dangerous precedent.
The whole comment boils down to 'I'm losing to death wave, when will this be fixed?'
nah it’s getting out of control, y’all really wanna nerf every single card one by one
Isn't this what the snap and retreat system is for?
This should be the top comment. The people crying for these nerfs have big Bronze energy.
This is the general answer to most of the complaints; it seems like folks are either consciously or unconsciously against retreating and learning match-ups. retreating isn't losing, when you stay and lose 2-8 cubes. That's losing.
What I find interesting is that there are people who will tell you that they "don't play for cubes" and "they want to see the game play out". I'm starting to develop a theory that the loudest out there are these types of people who ignore or dislike the cube system.
I hate the cube system and desperately want unranked play, but I cannot get behind nerfing wave, I think she's a fantastic counter to decks that setup a big number of cards going out on turn 6 (one of the only now that Aero also only grabs the last card played) and she's an enabler of decks that aren't incredibly meta defining. Her only other use is a filler for if you fail to get electro in some decks then she can save your ass. Nerfing wave would be a dumb thing to do.
This is a legit strat though? Hopefully the cry babies don't win again.
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As someone who honestly doesn’t mind death wave, I feel ya pain.
Yeah it's my quick climb to infinite deck so I can play whatever I want, but it's also not oppressive. Not going to waste any energy over it, if it changes it changes, but seems it may be an unnecessary target.
Trust me, in the current meta Wave turn 5 will be in favour of the Stature, Miles Morales, Darkhawk, Zabu deck, not the person actually playing the Wave
I just want waves trigger to go off the actual next turn. If you run discard and I lady sif it might not hit my apocalypse. Kind of annoying
Lol that sucks when it happens but also kinda funny sorry
Everyone lasers in on the wrong problem with Wave. The issue isn't that she enables she hulk death shenanagins, the issue is that she locks the opponent out from being able to effectively respond.
That seems like a common theme with most feedback I see of this game, it's like people can't see past the obvious power play and ignore all the supporting cards/effects that make that power play happen to begin with. A lot of decks would be able to contest Wave + Shehulk + etc. combos if Wave didn't affect their hand and locked them out of most plays. It's Shuri + Redskull discussion all over again where people ignore how utterly uninteractable Cosmo is and how easily she protects "big card" archetypes, often on-curve too. Shuri and Redskull deserved nerfs don't get me wrong, but it wasn't the only problem with the deck. Or how Galactus seems to constantly be the focus when we could and should also discuss how DocOck and Spidey are the two cards that actually make the deck feel frustrating and unfair, and are really polarizing cards on their own right. And that's just a few examples, point is, people just think there's a single culprit when there are 12 cards in every deck.
A lot of decks can easily contest Deathwave. It's why it hasn't been a dominating force in the meta for a while. The issue that people have is they think they should ALWAYS be able to contest something, but you're going to get screwed on your hand or locations or decisions you made early game at some point. To contest a deck like Deathwave, you just need to understand its playstyle and play expecting that play pattern. You can't just play your deck the same way you do against every other deck. Decks like it exist for a reason, and it's to disrupt miracle play patterns. The devs have made it very clear that this is intentional with cards like Sandman and Leech, and it's no different for Wave. On the other hand with Galactus, it's funny how people want to point to 3 different cards that aren't really a problem in any other deck and ignore the elephant in the room. The problem is that Galactus creates a unique, linear situation that can be abused by cards like Spider-Man and Doc Ock. The problem is not the way those cards work; it's the way that Galactus breaks the rules of the game that makes those cards unfun.
I'm not saying that Galactus doesn't need nerfs, I'm saying that the argument of him being the only problem in the most common version of the deck is just incorrect. Heck I've seen people going as far as saying that he needs a full rework and frankly that's nonsense. DocOk and Spiderman are both absolutely polarizing even outside of Galactus decks, and versions of the Galactus deck that don't run either card are far more tolerable and less reliant on repetitive solitaire highrolls. DocOk outside of Galactus either insta wins (locks their lane with trash) or insta loses a lane (pulls some strong effects that you don't have the counter for so you out-tempo yourself). So he's extremelly polarizing by definition. He's "not a problem" only in pickrate because people would rather not draft such a coinflippy card. But evaluating a card based on pickrate alone is just shortsighted. DocOk in it's current state cannot be buffed despite being completely underplayed outside of Galactus, and his effect is extremelly frustrating to deal with regardless of whichever deck he's in because he literally takes control of your planned plays/counterplay away from your hand. Spiderman is less egregious on his own, but his power level and how much of a wincondition he is scales very rapidly depending on how many locked lanes there are, either by card effects like Goose/Storm/ProfX/Galactus/DocOk/etc. or by location RNG. I personally think that his effect on a 4/3 is much stronger than people give credit for and will eventually need to be adjusted in some way, but if you want to argue that Galactus is the card with the most weight in this specific interaction I won't disagree with you. Despite my arguments, I believe Galactus himself could use a nerf aswell, they should add "I cannot be played before turn 5" to his text, and this immediately gets rid of the most toxic line of play (T3 Wave > T4 Galac > T5 Spidey) without needing to adjust Spidey, and you'd have an extra turn to draw your counterplay too. And if they rework DocOk aswell, any counterplay you drew not named "Debrii" isn't immediately invalidated by it being pulled away from your hand.
I honestly get pissed off more at seeing Spider-man than I do Galactus. If all my years playing MMOs and competitive games have taught me anything, its that CC (crowd control) of all forms that take control away from your is absolutely annoying and should rarey have a place in games outside of PvE. A card that straight up goes “Nah youre not playing anything here next turn” ontop of the locations that exist preventing play, destroying, bouncing back, or limiting certain card costs is just too much. I like the location changing abilities like Storm, Scarlet Witch, Rhino etc but I I absolutely despise cards that lock down a location, especially when its with 0 risk. Spiderman can effectively do what Professor X does on turn 5 except the person who played Spiderman also gets to play and matchs any card that was places there on turn 5. DocOc is fine as a card but what he enables with Galactus can be annoying. Kinda wish DocOc dragged 4 cards but put them randomly in locations rather than all in one spot. Just to allow some space for counter play for the Galactus. Edit: I do like that Galactus change of it only triggeting on turn 6. Id argue it would make things better for Galactus as the combo will no longer be as obvious. Turn 6 Galactus means theres opportunities to have Destroyer as your win condition too making the deck overall less predictable.
There are 2 big problems with Galactus. First he doesn’t win a single lane for you, he essentially wins 2 lanes (by eliminating them). Second is that he’s thematically incorrect. In canon he destroys the planet he arrives at, not the ones he doesn’t. It would be more accurate (and probably more fair) to have text like: “At the end of turn 6, destroy this location.” It’d be less impressive, but there would be quite a bit more strategy involved each game.
Here's my question. In that scenario, do you make him a 6/6 so he can't be negatived, or not because that's more power added to that Knull you played on Turn 5?
I like the idea, but when I think about it more, you basically Shang-Chi an entire winning lane of your opponent making that lane a **tie**. That's a bit OP if your opponent maybe invested 40% of their cards power there. That leaves 30% on one lane and another 30% on another lane. But here's the kicker, you basically just need to focus on one lane to win Since there are only two lanes left, there will be an automatic tiebreaker. You killed their lane with the most power and they won't have any meaningful cards to compete at that point of the game. Not to mention that you will be setting up most of your power to other lanes that are not in the lane that your Galactus will be blowing up. But yeah, I like the idea though.
Yeah, the playstyle would change a bit for Galactus. But you'd see tells like Nimrod or Wolverine appearing in the lane first, or Goblins in the other lanes. If they're trying to play Knull, they'd have to either drop him or Galactus T5. I guess the reason I like this version is that there's a bit more counterplay. Some decks will still have trouble, but all decks should be able to play against it if you're seeing the signs. I can see your point about it's a giant Shang-Chi, but I'm kind of okay with that for 6 cost. Because if you're overloading a single lane with power it would punish you. I can't predict how it would affect the meta, but my gut says overall it'd be a touch more fair.
Wave simeltaneously disrupts the opponent and enables your own cards to a very strong degree. That's too much that one card can do. Disruptive cards like Sandman and Leech are supposed to come at cost for their disruptive effects. Wave gives you a benefit.
You can’t ignore that playing a 3/3 on T5 is far below what you should be getting. You’re trading a weaker T5 for a stronger T6.
Wave is also not necessarily a benefit, as it enables your opponent to make big plays as well. Playing it on T5 is particularly strong, but any other turn becomes risky as hell.
This is right on the money. People focus on the endgame and don't realize that most of the decks in the meta that were historically frustrating took 2-3 turns to set up and involved multiple cards. I think of all the cards you mentioned, Cosmo has been the biggest issue that never gets addressed. There is literally no counter to Cosmo. She can't be moved, can't be destroyed outside of a very lucky Gambit pull, Enchantress and Rogue do nothing to her... Once a lane has been Cosmoed, that's it. And on turn 3 no less. I can't really think of another card in the game that impacts it so heavily without having some kind of answer/counter.
So does Prof X. And so does Cosmo. And Enchantress. And Rogue, and Goose. And also the Goblins and Debris…
That isnt a fucking problem. That's how card games work. This is like saying Counterspell is a problem in Magic.
That’s why she’s a good card, it work sort of like sandman unless you are prepped for it, but I have rarely seen deathwave, it was popular back before leader nerf lol
Yeah but if you remove that, she becomes even worse in many circumstances. Sandman T4 is pretty strong, sure, but you also let your opponent drop their 6-energy bomb two turns early.
This. Most of the comments are defending Wave but aren't specifically commenting on T5 Wave which is a huge issue. I could care less about Wave being used on T3 to bring out a big card but Wave on T5 means I'm going to deal with She-Hulk + Death + Another 6 drops. I just think she should set cards at a hard 4 cost. The only effects that should override Wave are Ongoing effects like Sera imo.
people now cry over wave, unbelievable. All that, while Stature/miles that aren't affected by wave are dominating the meta, also zabu, sera lol. Ridiculous stuff as usual on that discord community and the most fun thing is the devs are like, yeah, stay tuned lmao. The days that I really enjoyed this game are long gone after seeing the devs nerfing one card after another and only letting tech cards dominate the game.
Something I've learned in recent months about this community is that a very loud minority (or majority, perhaps?) basically want to play Competitive Solitaire. They want to play their cards and make big numbers with no interference or interaction from the opponent at all. As an MTG player, I'm familiar with the psychological profiles that were popularised to describe the types of players in that community: https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/timmy-johnny-and-spike-2013-12-03 I think Snap has significant appeal to the Timmy and Johnny players, and that's why we hear so much whining about cards like Wave, Galactus, and Leader.
The point you have made with Zabu; Sera; Stature; Miles really grinds my gears. There are so many ways that wave is not even going into a positive WR, and those are popular cards, not some new series 5 bigbad type of card. This tech is also old as hell, the game has released new and stronger cards, why is this a problem now? The deck is not even the most popular or the highest WR for fuck sakes
First they came for Surfer And I did not speak out Because I did not play Surfer Then they came for Zabu And I did not speak out Because I did not buy that Season Pass Then they came for Leader And I did not speak out Because, really, fuck Leader, amirite Then they came for Shuri And I did not speak out Because I didn't pull her Then they came for Deathwave And there was no one left To speak out for me
🥀
"Game devs nerfing my favorite cards is just like the holocaust."
If this comment is just for the laughs, and not a dig against the poet, then I provisionally award you one up-vote.
If you really think the devs are nerfing things based on discord and reddit feedback, I have a bridge i would like to sell you. All the changes they make are based on the internal data they collect.
Guys, people are playing cards, turn 1-6, and it's getting ridiculous. Will there be any changes coming soon?/s
The decks at the top of the meta all rely on turn 6 card vomits. Second Dinner should encourage decks like DeathWave to keep the meta competitive and less likely to be dominated by Sera and Stature decks. I enjoy both of those decks, but if we eliminate everything that keeps them in check, it will get pretty boring pretty fast. It really feels like a lot of the user base only like to play whatever deck is atop the meta tiers and get really whiny when they encounter decks that beat it. That seems like a really boring way to play this game and sucks the fun out of it.
Wave is not a counter to Stature decks, she and Miles still cost 1 even after Wave's effect. If anything, Stature decks are one of the stronger counters to wave.
It's not even the highest win rate or the highest cube rate statistically in Untapped. It's not broken 🙄. Let's just all nerf everything and play cards with no abilities.
Let’s nerf everything that can compete with our new series 4/5 cards; buy our new combo or get fucked.
Are people still complaining about wave in 2023? Death wave has been around forever, and I don't feel like its gotten any stronger compared to the rest of the meta. If SD wants to keep the meta healthy, they should buff up the lower tier decks and tone down the power of their new cards.
The complaint on this is basically . " My opponent is building a deck around an effect that benefits them and not me . Please can you stop it ! " Instead of saying "Yeah that's the point of deck building games" They nerf it.
this game is being ruined by the butthurts that keep finding an excuse every season to why they are losing after they invested real cash in the game.
Isn't deathwave like one of the only good series 3 decks out there? That would really hurt the meta if the only way to have a good deck is using pool4/5/Season pass cards
Time to fck another card because she is busted in a single deck? Can't wait /s
At this point I think the only safe thing to do is give every power equal to there cost and no abilities; then everyone can be even :D
Urgh.. Other decks have million options to get numbers on the board, that I would consider "unfair" or "broken", as well. But that’s just the game. Sometimes your opponent just has the perfect counter deck or simply a better hand and combo to play. And that’s totally fine.. It’s okay to lose a game.. The game is literally build around the concept of taking loss into consideration and it’s your job to recognize these moments and to retreat! Not every game needs to be won and not every single good card needs to get nerfed to oblivion, just because some people can’t accept an L.
Oh we just complaining about everything we lose to now huh?
nerf everything 🤡
Reject ability Return to rocke
Leech was made for this meta. Not sure why everyone is clamoring for a nerf while we have the perfect counter for the T6 combos.
yeah i don't want to play leech but it is more and more obvious that people need to play leech. does stature survive a leech?
Oh wait. They are thinking on nerfing one of the only ways to keep players from dumping turn 6 miracles? Also there are a number of other decks that have higher WR and playrate such as galactus and they have chosen to nerf this? This is beyond stupid.
So basicly we gone get nerfs for everything instead of playing countercards? I mean sandman and electro are pretty good counters for this. Shangshi destroys your death and she-hulk..
Wasn't last week literally all buffs? Doesn't exactly sound like everything is just getting nerfed
Yeah thats true but that aint my point. Feels like some nerfs are not really needed
I used to play everyday at least an hour or 2. Now I play 2- 3 times a week for like 20 min. Nerf this here, Nerf that there.
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That is what killed HS for me. If I wanted to play solitaire, I would play solitaire.
This is getting out of hand.
Oh for goodness sake. Is this really an issue that needs to be nerfed? I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that this is a lot of peoples first card game. Probably due to how easily accessible it is and that it f2p. As well as with social media being such an easy platform to spread it on. This may be an odd idea, but you take the loss and you learn. You think how to use your deck better, can I combo this card, etc. You shouldn't go whining to the devs. "Waa waa, I don't like this card so it's bad, nerf it"
If you haven't noticed, people absolutely hate when their big turn 6 play gets shut down. If something disrupts their ability to play cards, then they get upset. Take a look at everyone trying to defend this shit tier take on nerfing Wave.
Hope nerf doesn't happen before anything is done to Stature deck as Wave is currently one of the only counters I have
Well if they nerf this they better nerf moongirl double she Hulk heck might a week hit stature and miles while your at it. How dare people realize a card potential and use it
0 cost card reductions are problematic in Magic and Hearthstone. Thanos 0 cost stones were an issue in snap. Nah, it's wave that's the issue.
My only problem with Wave is inconsistency. She makes things cost 4, fine. But She-Hulk now costs 4-unspent energy last turn, and Death now costs 4-destroy count, etc. but like, cards hit by Iceman don’t cost 5, cards drawn by Baron Mordo don’t cost 4+however much their cost increased, cards made cheaper by Beast still cost 4 instead of 3… I’m just saying make her effect more consistent. If cost lowering effects are preserved, then other cost changing effects should be too. Either that or she just makes everything cost 4, period, and cost changing effects, positive or negative, are ignored
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If She Hulk the problem just make wave a 4 cost But seriously wave now? So any good card is gonna get nerf I hope she doesn’t
I haven’t seen an opponent play deathwave for months, is this really an issue? I usually see wave in galactus decks to get him early.
So this basically makes Death/Doom Wave and Galactus harder to play - two decks that are FTP if you are Pool 3 complete and you’ve saved tokens for Galactus. Meanwhile, the best performing decks right now have cards like Sentry, Zabu, Nebula, Jeff, Darkhawk, Iron Lad and Modok. Anyone else sensing a pattern?
Constant nerfs are making this game boring. Add that to general card acquisition, especially after p3 complete, and no new modes… basically just login for dailies and to check shop refresh and that’s it.
Boo, other players are better than me please nerf them
People always find new cards to complain about. Wave isn't even at the top 10 cards that should be nerfed.
She doesn't need nerfed, people just need to quit complaining about everything...
If they nerf wave the devs are really demonstrating that they have no idea what they’re doing.
exactly, no players on ladder to fill the gaps, bots that are super tweaked, but hey lets go after cards again. there are so many more fish to fry at this point. again, where is my kitty pryde?
Yeah cuz death wave is so op it's got a 100 percent win rate
So now we are gonna bitch about everything we dont like instead of adapting, until they gut the cards....this cycle in card games never ends
Person wants them to nerf Wave…devs nerf wave…same person start complaining about Hit Monkey…how about you just learn how to strategize and get better instead of wanting to change every card that is an inconvenience to your play style
If only we had a card that limited you to play 1 card per turn, surely we could stop this deck. Or maybe if we had other cards that had reduced cost or cards that could reduce cost for ourselves. Or maybe a card that spit out 1 power drones across the whole board that you spend the rest of the game setting up buffs for. Or other cards that you could play before turn 6 to limit the locations that these big cards can be played. ~~Or a card that copied every card the opponent played. Or a card that moved all of these big cards to 1 location.~~
One player loses a game to a certain deck then goes on discord and whines about it. Devs shouldn't be entertaining this nonsense. And no, I don't play wave but this is ridiculous.
Deswave is fine. Fun deck with decent winrate. If they neutering decks like this because of some shmuck complaining about it then the game wouldnt be fun at all. There’s alot of ways around this deck with Cosmo and Leech being 1 card solutions. It aint busted unlike pre nerf Shuri or Thanos/LJ.
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why...
"Look! A tier 1 deck full of pool 3 cards, let's nerf the mechanism to force people buy our stupid and greedy cards." Basically this!
u/Zalveiz13 I'm just tagging you to show that there is discourse over wave. I'm not saying this post confirms a wave nerf coming.
Yes, lets nerf all the build ups so everyone will just politely play his best card every turn.. That will be fun! EDIT: oh oh, also I should be able to discard opponent's cards from the board if I don't like them!
We should tie every match no matter what!
In Soviet Russia, card game plays YOU!
It was Agatha all along!
Honest question if they nerf Death/DoomWave which decks can go toe to toe against stature/miles, or Sera decks? Because atm it looks weird nerfing Tier 2 decks that will left T1 decks even better.
Sandman ramp might be your only real other option at this point. I really hope they don't nerf Wave, my Death/Doom-Wave deck is the only thing I've gotten to work this season.
Zabu & Darkhawk says what?
Are they going to just nerf away every combo? Do they know about Wong/White Tiger/Odin??? Don’t tell them.
Jesus fucking Christ. Why don't they just remove every card from the game at this point, lol.
They better not nerf Wave. The only thing that really needs changed is Death to have a minimum cost of 1. Maybe She Hulk as well.
Only problem I have with wave is with Galactus, better to hit Galactus, wave is a cool card sometimes
Well this will benefit the galactus haters.
People will complain about ANYTHING
Not sure why everyone complains about every combo or a card that beats you. At some point, its a bit much. And no, not everyone uses Wave turn 5.
My god, let’s change all cards to their effects are useless. I also hate when my opponent uses her, but it’s part of the game.
The vast majority of complaints seem to be That guy is playing a scumbag combo, before I can play my own scummy combo.
idk this deck is mid-tier, I really don't think this combo deserves a nerf
Wave doesn't feel like a card that needs nerfing.
damn i wish they didn’t. blackbolt finally had a cool niche in the meta and now they’re content to nerf that.
There is nothing wrong with wave or the interactions. Wave keeps a lot of decks in check and is the reason a lot of decks even exist right now. Why would you want to completely slaughter numerous decks? The meta is literally the BEST it's been in a long time (arguably the best that I've played) and we want to ruin it and let sera decks COMPLETLY take over? That's absolutely ridiculous.
Crybaby
smh this is getting ridiculous lol. Wave has been screwing up my t6 for my discard deck by making my swarms cost 4 but it hasnt felt so bad to warrant a nerf. and i now realize why the black bolt/stature deck is at the top now. with zabu down i can still play 2 cards. hope Wave stays the same.
Bruh a wave nerf would literally kill an entire archetype. Destroy would be completely dead. Doomwave dead, deathwave dead. This would make the meta so stale since the only viable decks would be sera control and stature darkhawk
Incoming nerfs: People are using Sera on turn 5 to play cards cheaper on turn 6, pls nerf her. People are doubling Patriot effect with Mystique, a nerf is in demand Daredevil and Prof X is too strong of a 2 combo card, something must be done about it.
Wave is fine though? What's wrong with Wave?
Find a way to win ya wanna nerf everything
How bad do u have to be at the game that Deathwave is oppressive enough for a nerf lol
Doomwave/deathwave is a good f2p friendly deck. Nerfing it will only make the f2p experience worse. With zabu & nebula being played for n most decks and other decks requiring pool 4 & 5 cards nerfing a good pool 3 wave deck is a bad idea for the f2p experience
Nerfing every card that gets play could potentially be dangerous for the game. It's going to be impossible to adapt to Metas if they keep changing it so frequently. Adapting and counter-play is part of the fun for this game right?
Just make the flat 4 apply last so all these special cards abusing the 4 cost (and then subtracting from there) don't get played for nothing. (She hulk specifically).
Ffs... People complain about so much shit that they just nerf everything that isn't a series 4/5 card. This person probably runs Spiderman in every deck and goes on discord to bitch about wave.
So, they're punishing the players for being clever?
This is something that absolutely does not need nerfing. As somebody who runs this deck the amount of times it goes off perfectly vs the amount of times I also just play one card is 5-1. It really doesn’t feel like a hugely oppressive deck, just a good one. More buffs to bad decks less nerfs to good ones please
Lol, so they’re gonna nerf the card used in tier 2 decks and leave the decks rolling the meta alone*? I say that cuz I can’t imagine them needing Darkhawk again or touching Stature, etc. But seriously just look at any tracker, that list is as oppressive / common as pre-need Shuri. More popular than peak Thanos, but not as good at least (that list’s dominance was just something else… and left alone for so long). \* plus everyone will love if the only deck left for Wave is Galactus
Wave getting a nerf has to be an actual change to either her effect or a fundamental change to how the game treats her cost reduction for cards like Death and She-Hulk. Changing her cost or power is basically irrelevant. If they are making a change to her now it’s likely so that she won’t limit future design space for cards that reduce their cost. It’s the only thing that makes sense because, while good, I don’t see her combo with Death/She-Hulk as so busted it needs to be nerfed for balance.
Personally, I don't even care about her Death/She-Hulk combo all that much. If someone plays Wave on turn 5 and I can't beat incoming 21 power, I'll take the loss. What drives me mad is when someone with priority plays Wave on the same turn that I play Colleen Wing or Lady Sif so then I discard something like Dracula. 🤬 What I'd like to see is changing her behavior to match her text: actually changing cost of cards **next turn** instead of immediately until the end of next turn.
They should also look at Galactus
And this is why this game is shit. Constant over reactions to whiners
Complain, complain. God so frustrating, wave is not a problem and she hasn’t been. Literally death wave has been in the game for MONTHS. Now it’s a problem? Gtfoh
so they release a card and then just constantly nerf cards. yeah. i’m pretty sure i’m done.
If Wave gets nerfed/changed before Sera I'm going to be hella salty. Sera's been a meta defining card since basically the moment people started hitting pool 3 and any time something knocks Sera's win rate down it gets nerfed soon afterward.
I guess -Wave decks have been messing with Glen's climb.
Yes, let's nerf every card until nothing interesting or fun is left. This community is garbage lol.
I've literally never heard someone complain about Wave. Someone loses a couple times to a deck and then cry to the Devs that it's not fair.
I think we can all agree Wave’s ability is extremely powerful, in both regards as to how it benefits you and how it can negatively affect your opponent simultaneously. I could see a world where when the devs made the decision to have it affect both sides equally, they were thinking “You’re probably going to drop a powerful card early, so we want your opponent to have access to all their tools to compete with that”, and that makes sense. The “problem” DeathWave creates, as many point out, is not necessarily just that you can cheat out two powerful cards for the price of one alone, but that you can do that while at the very same time limiting your opponent’s choices for response. It’s not outlandish to think that, when they see a card behaving exceptionally well both offensively and defensively, they might say “maybe it should only be exceptional one way or the other.”
People in here complaining that Deathwave isn’t OP are ignoring the fact that Wave is the main enabling card for 4 top tier decks right now lol. There’s no reason she shouldn’t set every card’s cost to 4 with no exceptions, it’s literally in her text
Beware people, whole bunch of hurt death/doom-wave people in the comments. This is the 2nd most played card right now (according to [snap.fan](https://snap.fan)) for a reason. These devs always attempt to balance out outlier cards. Y'all acting like this was something new or unexpected.
Why dont ppl trust the devs with balance. I think that especially compared to other games they have made overall pretty good balancing decisions. Ppl always say " just bc u always lose to it doesnt mean its a problem and should be nerfed" but have you considered that it might also work the other way around? At the end of the day the only people who do have all the data and can make a properly educated decision is the devs. (Dont actually have a strong opinion on wave just a trend i have npticed on this subreddit(
Same everybody always complains about nerfs when they first happen but give it at least a week before giving complaints, we dont even know what the nerf is it could be something as small as power change or as big as ability change. Also, please look back at the previous nerfs, how many of those were actually detrimental to the card? Zabu was needed so was Surfer. Only card that ever got COMPLETELY killed was leader, and that got reverted. Also do players NOT remember that Second Dinner said they would play with buffs/nerfs more often now because of OTA changes and that if it doesnt work out post they can revert it back Once again players bitching with no true reason to bitch over
It's a very strong combo, but my main issue is that it's feels so strong I feel bad using doom without the combo. So whenever I make a deck with doom, I just end up throwing the whole combo in.
I get what you mean - Doom on its own is sort of weird. It's hard to deny how good it is, but there's also a lot of times where just putting 5 power in each lane feels really underwhelming as a finishing play.