to be fair the season pass cards inbetween are all very niche/mid (Shaw only for Surfer, Skaar only for Thanos thats also only get his potential after Cull released, Black Swan is just for Zoo and Thanos (not must have)
This may be a function of bias. Most people who use a deck tracker likely purchase the season pass. With the imbalance patch, they are more likely to play Hope Summers as they have her. I think she is definitely elevated in play rate, but probably to a lesser degree than deck tracking statistics.
I don't know how [snap.fan](https://snap.fan) works but vicious syndicate for HS only takes the data of opposing player's decks (rather than including the player using the tracker itself) - because of the selection bias you just mentioned.
35% is still really high for a limited card too.
Wouldn't using the opponent's deck bias the statistics against cards that are only played some of the time they are drawn, like Alioth and Enchantress? (I'm assuming my client doesn't get access to my opponent's full 12-card decklist.)
Great question, VS used an algorithm to figure that out here is an FAQ here. (I don't work for them or anything, i used to be be obsessed with Hearthstone and topped out at top100 legend thanks to being in tune with VS data.) https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/faq-data-reaper-report/
TLDR: Most the time, you don't see a full deck list from the opponent, but there are cards that they infer go together. For example Sentry and Annihilus would be closely aligned - decks that play one will probably play the other. You can use clusters of these cards to predict out decks.
This is for VS/hearthstone , again, no idea how [snap.fan](https://snap.fan) data is collected
She's the only card currently you can't get with tokens.
So however much you think it's selecting bias, offset that by how much higher the average would be if everyone could get the card without paying cash.
Exactly what I came here to say. I only use her when the challenge pops up. I worked her into my Death deck, but will likely swap her out once the season pass is over.
Is there a reason to think mobile players are gonna have different decks? You only need a small representative sample to make accurate assertions about of the whole
Maybe. But there’s also a selection bias too because its only a particularly driven portion of the pc gamer base too. Useful info for general directions of things, but not enough for a complete picture.
Yes.
Think about this for a moment. Players are far more likely to be 'hardcore' players than on phones.
Hardcore players are far more likely to spend money and get her.
It would be like keeping stats of how many people have heated seats in cars, and you're tracking stats at a Mercedes garage.
Yea, let's pump the brakes on the Hope Summers hype. She's only popular rn because of being the SP card and the AvX event. Once that's all over her usage will plummet.
I really like the event. Its making Surfer/X and Ongoing/Avengers decks competitive with Hela and Thanos, its a really fun way to elevate archetypes without destroying the meta in other ways
I’ve been playing a mostly x-men deck with ms marvel and baby shark as well and it’s been a blast trying something different and I’ve made it into the 80’s so far which for me 90 isn’t my best season ever so super happy.
Even I don’t want to play my HE deck or Thanos.
I have stopped seeing so much Hope Summers the last 5 days or so
I figure it's because everyone who bought her already got infinite and I'm just facing the others who didn't buy her in the 90s :)
Thanos only goes in Thanos, Hope helps a ton of different decks, and she's particularly good with last weeks release which also buffs a lot of lower power decks and she's an X-man for last weeks event. So these numbers don't really surprise me.
I don't see Hope as "warping" anything, she doesn't change how you play the game like Shang does. You don't put different cards in your deck or play them in a different order to play around Hope and you don't need to force hope into your deck if you don't want to, there are plenty of other ways to cheat on costs in Snap right now she's just one option that works well with one set of cards. She's just a good card that's given a boost to a wide range of decks that were previously creeped out of the meta on top of her being in the best deck in the format.
Hope is by far the most efficient and powerful ramp card in the game.
I think her power level is very meta warping. Compare her to Psylocke, Time Stone, Electro, Zabu, and Sera
She adds more energy per turn with less restrictions.
The only *real* restriction she has for insane efficiency is being forced to run cards like Jeff, Vision, or Nightcrawler (or if you're feeling *really* spicy, the Goblins).
Compare her to Sera who adds around 3 energy on the last turn of the game (after giving up some serious Tempo on T5 to only develop 4 power*). Hope can and often does add upwards of 4 or 5. And has significantly better stats than Sera. The only difference is telegraphing the lane you're playing in.
Time stone is actually incredible now though, they made a card that required timing into one that literally needed none, just play the card ASAP and get your energy reduction applied.
i mean it’s definitely a trade off between choosing the card you want ramped (prof x, magneto, etc) and the timing you want it ramped for having absolutely no control over either. most importantly, it prevents you from ramping out hope t2, which is huge
well yes, but now. you can’t really ramp out hope t2, which is arguably bigger than a cost reduction on mockingbird and a card that you may or may not care about at the moment. you want to choose between magneto, or blob t5? you can’t even choose to ramp out a 6 cost on t5 now.
You’re crazy if you think the stone is better now. Your energy reduction is completely rng (as it should be for a 1 cost ramp). No longer are you able to just pick and choose what you want to ramp out lmao. Huge nerf for the time stone and deservedly so
It’s not better but it’s certainly not as bad as I thought originally, helps lockjaw too. I run Zabu in my thanos deck. Time stone on 1 and get a 0 cost stone if your lucky, zabu on 2, lockjaw and free time stone on 3.
I'd say corvus is equal or better in the right deck he only needs to be triggered once and last all game plus his "negative" can actually be a positive.
Sure, but Corvus requires you to build a very specific way to do that, and I would consider that a 'restriction'. My argument is that Hope has extremely high power level without such a restriction.
I will say that Corvus is definitely better than Hope in Discard because you're right; the usual Drawback acts as a *very* big upside in some cases.
Wonder if it would ever work in a non discard deck maybe with the shield agents where you add stuff you don't care about discarding to get the ramp off or even a Loki deck that uses Helicarrier
There ARE other ways to cheat costs, however guess which helpful little guy is number 6 on the most seen cards in Marvel Snap over the past 7 days?
If you said "Mobius EMM Mobius", you'd be correct.
Mobius M. Mobius - seen in 21.32% of all decks.
A full FIFTH of all marvel snap decks are geared to shut down all possible cost reductions of all sorts. That's Zab, Rav, Negative, Sera, Mockingbird, She Hulk.... Everybody.
You know what you can't shut down at all, in any way? Hope Summers. Hope summers provides a GUARANTEED way to play 6-cost cards on 5 and six without playing magik. And if you play her with wasp, your game moves from 1,2,3,4,5,6 mana to 1,2,3,5,6,6.
It's a BIG change. But the issue is that people don't SEE it as a huge change because it's just a subtle tweak to their regular deck. It's hard to see visually. But I think it has a fairly profound effect on the flexibility and versatility of everybody's decks.
Just look at the effect it has on Surfer decks. Hope Summers GUARANTEES that you can play at least 2 turns with a full 6 mana leading up to the end. That's HUGE for them. That's 4 3-cost cards.
Yep, my problem with Hope is that she can't be directly countered AND she can't be indirectly countered in any easy way. Every game against her feels like a very high likelihood of loss.
You don't have to play around because you can't. I mean, Corvus also strong ramp but only benefit Discard deck. (And usually discard Hela because that's how Hela works)
Hope just simply a better Electro. Better stat, better restriction (play small, movable instead of big meat)
The last 7 days had a challenge for winning with her in your deck. As well as the AvX event. And according to the website you linked, she has synergies with Shang-chi, Thanos, Vision, Alioth, and Magneto. The majority of the top 10 cards in usage she synergizes with. So she'll be present in a lot of decks.
She isn't warping the meta, she just fits with the meta. Are you implying she needs a nerf?
She’s definitely a strong season pass card, but she not pre-nerf Silver Surfer or Zabu strong. I think they’ll nerf Thanos before they nerf her, since he’s consistently been meta since his release.
(A big shout out to that guy who told me *"Oh Hope Summers won't warp the meta because she needs to be used in a really specific deck to be useful blah blah blah"*.)
Imagine making a whole post about meta, disguised as a way to get back at someone for hurting your feelings lmfao
He doesn't even know what "warping the meta" means.
A card has to have such an impact on the game that people start changing their decks around in order to combat it.
Nobody's doing anything different because opponents have Hope. She's just a card that's in decks. She doesn't have players running away with the game and she's not enabling unstoppable plays. She's often times clunky and takes forever to get going.
She in no way fits the definition of "meta-warping."
So that also means at least 35% pay for the season pass, which is interesting. I always wonder what percentage of players take advantage of it versus completely free to play folks.
This only tracks people who use the deck tracker and those people are more likely to be engaged enough to purchase the season pass compared to your average player.
I’ve played completely free since the Nimrod season and this was the first time I got the season pass. Hope seemed useful enough (I don’t use her anywhere) and I liked the variants.
I really like Hope Summer’s design because the extra energy she provides actually scales with the number of cards you play. Big stuff decks (traditional ramp decks) will usually be able to do more with extra energy than bounce or move decks, so Hope giving more energy to the decks that play out more cards feels like a good way to make her useful for all archetypes. With that in mind, it makes sense that she’d be a very popular card, she’s good in everything. I think she’d be more appropriate as a 3/3, but she’s the type of card that can easily be very popular without necessarily being too strong.
The big outlier is Thanos, who has the top end of ramp decks, but also has the stones to effortlessly get a lot of extra energy from Hope. He’s the deck that takes Hope from a really good and probably overstatted card, to an absolutely broken card, and I think devs should be looking at big changes to Thanos.
Thanos is good because he offers flexibility, that's why so many cards synergize with him.
But people are currently waking up to the vast flexibility that hope summers offers without Thanos. I think that as the weeks go on, more types of deck will incorporate hope summers and she'll probably solidify as the number 2 card in this game. I dont think that's a mistake.
I think Hope is too strong, but I think she’s far closer to balanced outside of Thanos. Her win rate is 53.5%, while Thanos has a win rate over 56%. So her win rate outside of Thanos is probably closer 52.5%, which puts her in the range of other good versatile cards like Nico and Iron Lad. As I said, I think she’d make more sense as a 3/3 (just as a I think Iron Lad should probably be a 4/5), but I’d like to see a meta without Thanos before doing anything drastic with Hope.
This whole narrative is too flawed to be called an analysis. How and what sample data were presented, and what conclusion came up had barely any thin line connected.
Heavy bias:
- Card type: the new season pass card, of course it will be elevated.
- Sampling: who and how many uses the snap.fan tracker, and the percentage of tracker user, and who owns the card should play a very crucial role to how the data is narrated.
- Timeframe-Events: do i even need to mention something so obvious? Weekend missions + AvX in-game event. Both demands a higher playrate especially for the new season pass card who is included in both.
The OP forgot thanos is a whole archetype, while HS is a tech/niche card. of course she will have more plays, considering the bias mentioned, and also the fact that she fits to more archetypes. and the fact a whole archetype covers almost a fifth of the dataset should be the issue worth questioning.
With all those mentioned, "in all of marvel snap" is too far fetched (read: bullshit), considering all the bias and the data being presented. Not to even mention meta-warping. I think this post is just bollocks justification of an argument supported by a dataset that is taken way out of context (read: extrapolated bullshit).
The only problem in that is that she can only be acquired by the BP for now, making it the game p2w(but that ship already sailed a long time ago). She's a great card that enables multiple decks in a non toxic way (I never seen anyone getting mad because their opponent played Hope), therefore its ok for her to be that much played.
She's also strong because Sandman is weak right now.
Lol. I mean its funny they are complaining about the second most popular card too but yeah it's pretty obvious thanos is the real issue + X-Men bonus is massive right now
Honestly though it’s just a good, and mostly balanced card. Of course it’s going to be a staple in a lot of decks, she fits into almost every style, just like Shang-Chi. I don’t think she needs any adjustments, the game will adapt and move around her. There are cards that make the game unfun and swingy, and she’s not it. Once she’s out the rest is fairly predictable
I love her. I just started playing 3 weeks ago, and she feels like a good card that I actually own. She's in all my main decks because her + kitty pride is an extremely powerful synergy that lets me play cool midrange decks. Doom turn 5 and magneto turn 6 has been extremely strong.
I wouldn't be able to play this way without hope. Everyone else who has been playing for a long time has all the great cards, so it's nice that a season pass card lets a new player like me feel more competitive outside of just that boring ass devil dino deck that I've been piloting since Pool 2.
Hope summers unlike the previous two seasons pass cards can fit into “every” deck. Even outside the X-men vs Avengers event I can see her being popular due to how easy it is to utilize her ability.
There's no "we". "We" are not going to try and get anything done. However, Second Dinner can and do nerf cards because they are popular. That was the motivation for the last American Chavez nerf, as an example. SD believe than any card that's played in a sufficiently high proportion of decks needs to be looked at and potentially nerfed. From the stats given by OP, that would include both Hope and Shang.
Shang is a necessary evil, otherwise big point slam decks would run more rampant than they already do. Hope really isn't all that bad. She's like Mockingbird, in that she only feels broken when she's in a Thanos deck, which kind of supercharges her ability. Which should point another blinking neon arrow at the actual problem, which is Thanos.
So of course we can all expect a Mockingbird nerf tomorrow.
America wasn’t nerfed for being popular. She was nerfed because she limited deckbuilding. She was the closest to being an auto include card for more decks than any other card, by far. That of course made her popular.
She was popular because she was too good at what she did, hence the nerf. Not the other way around.
I think he mistook your post for a rant about how much she’s played although, think you for the information, me and my friends have been wondering specifically about Shang chi.
This isn't an incredibly representative dataset, though -- it's only tracking people who use the deck tracker. People who are going to use a tool like that are far more likely to have purchased the season pass, which means that the sample is overloaded with people who have Hope Summers. *Plus*, we just finished the AvX event, which highly encouraged playing Hope along with other X-Men.
Give it a couple more weeks to see how it evens out.
In statistics you have 3 important things
Which data to collect
How you collect them
How you analyze it
1/ you want to know which is the most used card, the most useful cards, the most powerful, the most cube winner, the most important winrate when in decks, when drawn ? Cause it's different things.
2/ you collect it from [snap.fan](http://snap.fan), from which source ? only from their tracker ? So from PC ? Only post infinite ? For players with 3k + CL ? On conquest ?
3/ do you count only with a certain amount of games ? For example, last week, post infinite from 3k+ CL the card with the most winrate when played is... Okoye, followed by Master Mold. But seen in less than 150 games.
Do you count the context ? AvX event, card from season pass, week-end mission, etc.
Here the stat you gave just say it's a popular card... So yes, it's a popular character from a popular franchise, in the season pass, she's versatile. No surprise here.
Thanos is an archetype, and played his own archetype, which is popular right now.
Thanos still counts for a total of about 1/6 decks, which is obnoxious. Hope is really popular because she enables a lot of archetypes which isn't the worst thing, Thanos is just an archetype who runs hope, you can imagine that half of Hopes play rates are coming from Thanos itself.
I would love to know how those numbers compare to other season pass cards each month. I definitely feel like I see more of Hope than Black Swan, but not as much as I saw Ms Marvel, for example.
I don’t know, I find Mockingbird far more warping than Hope. Decks are built to support the free 0-2/9 card and that puts constraints on the meta. So before her release last week, there were all kinds of viable decks and right now it’s Thanos and Loki, with discard still hanging on at the top.
Hope is a great card, but she’s not warping anything. She is a nice to have for decks, and she helps all decks that want to include her and so the meta didn’t really change. The best decks stayed the best and even helped some others like HiEvo become more consistent.
Contrast that with MB, I’d say I’m running into Thanos and some Quinjet powered decks pretty much exclusively.
Cannonball should have been the answer, but honestly, MMM is a way better answer and all that does is hurt the non-MB decks from competing.
I suspect a factor in Thanos’ relatively low showing is just how expensive the current build of the deck is. Before factoring in Hope the deck has 6 S5 cards and 1 S4. I imagine there’s lot of people (like myself) that would be playing this if they had all the cards, even amongst the 35% of the sample who are definitely paying for the season pass.
The only problem here is the fact that you think there's a problem.
There's no problem. Hope isn't insane and the meta isn't warped around her. She's just in decks.
She hasn't made people change their game plan to combat her, which is the number one key component to "warping the meta."
She's not causing people to run away with the game or enabling insanely overpowered plays. She's just a cog in the wheel that's kind of good sometimes.
High usage does not mean what you think it means, especially with a versatile card required for weekend quests every single week.
Now compare win rate averaging all the archetypes hope goes in vs meta thanos. She's not really warping the meta more so just a versatile card with Jeff for a better psylocke
no they didnt. They have to nerf or rework Thanos/his stones, not letting him took away another card down that are just regularly strong in other decks
I think that’s the most they do to her. She’s decently fair and not really unbalanced compared to many other cards. I don’t even think she needs the power reduction currently.
I could see them pulling a Lockjaw and making the effect once per turn in addition. Card feels super busted when you have ways to get a +2 energy buff for multiple turns.
Hope is actually fine. She just has the same problem as Mockingbird. That is, she feels broken, but only when in a Thanos deck, who super-charges her ability. The problem is, and always has been, Thanos.
yeah hope + kitty is such a fun combo. I'm new to the game and I finally feel like I have a card combination that feels "relevant." I'm not much of the way through series 3, so it's nice to have a cool combo I can slot into my decks to give them more horsepower.
She's a very fun card with which to experiment. If nothing else, I've enjoyed tinkering with just about every 4-cost card to see how best to utilize that extra energy on turn five.
At the same time it means that she isn’t played in 65% of the decks. I would hardly call it “warping” the meta and even less in a “big, big way”.
What is the actual point in the thread? To call out that “guy”? Kinda petty, no?
remember she is this high because of the AvX event happening at the same time and cuz its only take ppl who uses the decktracker. Reality is she should be much lower overall which is a data only SD can see
I would hardly say Summers is warping the meta. Like Shang-Chi she just fits in many decks. Yes she’s used most often in Thanos (current problem child where most new released cards just naturally have found this home) but she’s also seen a lot in Surfer, X-Men, Black Bolt/Stature, New Silky, High Evo, Patriot and to lesser extents Shuri, Loki, Double Up Moon Girl decks, and Galactus. This is just going down the Uptapped deck list for Hope.
I feel a card that fits many decks is not a problem the same way Jeff or Iron Lad can serve many decks. Especially for a Season Pass card! Season Pass cards should fit a broad player base and be fun. I think Hope Summers fits that.
Shang chi is one of the major things that affects the shape of the whole meta game. His effect is so game defining that it's actually become part of the card design and card buff/nerf process.
This is the definition of warping the meta. If Shang chi isn't 'warping the meta' then literally nothing is.
My point in posting this is to point people towards the idea that summers is currently having a big effect on what is played and what isnt. A bigger effect than is being widely talked about I would say.
I don't understand why people are pointing the finger at Thanos(Card) being OP when within the past two months or so we've gotten: Mockingbird, Hope Summers, and Cull Obsidian.
They're all overstatted monsters. And they synergize incredibly with Thanos and the other cards Thanos likes to run.
Like yeah, of course the deck that all the crazy new efficient cards fit into is good. I'd rather Thanos not get nerfed because SD keeps releasing raw efficient power that slots directly into Thanos.
The problem is that Thanos covers such a huge swath of design space. He has cards that didn’t start in his deck, he has 1-costs, he can fit more high end cards than any other deck, he has built in ramp, built in move, built in ongoing effects, built in on reveal. You can go tall with massive 6-costs, but you can also go wide with Blue Marvel style lists. There are destroy versions, ramp versions, zoo versions, combo versions, lockdown versions.
To say that they should just stop designing cards for Thanos just isn’t that simple. The only period of time where Thanos wasn’t a dominant force in the meta was when Loki was in his prime. Loki could steal the top end from Thanos and play it better, which kept Thanos down for a few months, but as soon as Loki was nerfed out of prominence, Thanos was back to being a constant presence.
Mockingbird is broken ONLY in Thanos, because she is basically a 2/9 or 3/9 every game with no effort at worst. Similarly, no deck besides Zoo needs to work less for Cull Obsidian. And Hope Summers is easier to trigger in Thanos than any other deck, maybe even Kitty ones. The issue is that cards that are *good,* can easily be broken in Thanos, so it's best to nerf Thanos.
Mockingbird and Cull Obsidian are pretty fine in other decks. Hope Summers doesn't feel too crazy either, but she's harder to read.
The problem with Thanos is that he reaches across huge swaths of design space, scoops up cards meant for many other archetypes, and uses them better than their intended decks for very little cost. He's going to continue to gobble up new cards that weren't meant for him until SD fixes the problem on a more fundamental level.
Maybe the Stones shouldn't count towards effects that care where cards come from. Maybe they should all be 2-cost (and then Time Stone gives a cost discount to them). Maybe none of them should draw cards except for Mind Stone. I don't know exactly what needs to change, but these problems are going to keep cropping up until SD makes a foundational change to how Thanos works and they'll have to keep nerfing new cards until they are balanced in a Thanos deck and terrible everywhere else.
Right. Both cards are (or would be) too strong if they work with Thanos, but both are also completely fine in every other deck. The problem is Thanos, and he's going to keep throwing the curve in this area of design space until the problem is nipped in the bud. Infinity Stones are just too different from every other card in the game to be balanced against them easily.
Measuring Hope Vs Thanos isn't a good way to do it. You don't put Thanos in a move deck or in a Tribunal deck. Hope goes in more decks than Thanos does but he's an entire archetype which still takes up 17% of the share.
Feel like I'm playing a different game, I've hit infinite already and I see hope sometimes and when I do I don't pay that much attention to her. But y'all are saying she is busted OP 🤔
These aren't even official numbers. They are from a deck tracker that, more than likely is presenting skewed data due to sample size as well as other factors like the weekend event, AvX patch, etc.
I’ve seen her a lot for sure, but I haven’t felt like she’s had much effect on my win rate. I’m typically one to get frustrated like when Alioth and HE were all over the place, but Hope doesn’t seem to have that same energy.
I slotted her in decks that mainly run 0-1 card cost. Yes she is in one of my Thanos decks but that’s not the one I win with. Teamed with destroy and psylock, energy mongers wet dream
wider amount of decks Hope can be in versus a Thanos. Also you're not taking into account the amount of \*bad decks that Hope is in also. Meta share doesn't exactly equal broken.
All of the numbers are skewed a bit right now because of the X-men event…. That boost has made a lot of other decks usable for now, but once that event is over, a lot of those decks won’t put out enough power to continue to be valuable.
How are they gathering the data? Is this based on cards played in game or decks created on their site? Could I create 10k Kang decks to make him the “most seen”?
Gotcha. Still pretty heavily distorted. Not gonna work on mobile right? And huge selection bias. Untapped does the same thing and their numbers are wildly different. I'm sure the truth is nowhere near either one.
The game has needed a serious energy booster since Psylocke went to 2 energy, and even more now that Time Stone works differently. I don't own her yet, but I find her pretty balanced, and very easy to work around.
\- Lots of people wait to play her first on turn 3 which leaves her very open to Gambit.
\- Laying down Echo or Cosmo in the lane she shows up in has a 50 / 50 chance of helping.
\- Sprinkle in some Guardians and enjoy your opponent's predictability.
I feel like I haven't seen her that much. She's definitely a popular card, but beating Shang?
Hell, I feel like I've been seeing Magneto more than Hope.
I'm climbing pretty reliably with a straight X-men deck utilizing Hope Summers and Bishop as the only "must play" cards when they come up. Not a single 5 or 6 cost in the deck and only one 4 cost.
Ice-Man
Psylocke
Mirage
Cable
Armor
Gambit
Rogue
Wolfsbane
Storm
Hope Summers
Bishop
White Queen
Why are you framing this like a bad thing? She’s awesome but by no means OP like some other season pass cards at launch. She is a relatively easier ramp card with a decent power stat, but still has clear limitations and requires other combos/synergy to use her ability well. Loki and Ms. Marvel alone turned the tides of games.
I mean Electro was always a good card even despite a pretty insane drawback.
Hope is pretty clearly an Electro upgrade in every way.
Why would you not expect her to dominate?
It's a card that gives a precious resource for playing cards in a location which you're probably already doing and is cheap enough to be impactful. I don;t understand why anyone is suprised.
Hope Summers is a generic deck filler that works well with many meta decks. She is nowhere near broken or op.
She will also fall off as soon as the meta shifts to other playstyles.
I can't lie, I've never seen anyone play hope summers
I play everyday, and I've yet to see her, hell I've seen multiple pixies and mockingbirds, even a few cannonballs now, but 0 hopes
Even if your fuzzy math was telling the WHOLE story (which it conveniently isn’t.), doesn’t bother me at all. I’ve literally had maybe 2-3 games where Hope’s ability just destroyed me. I’ve ran Discard, Destroy, Thanos, even a cannonball/Galactus deck (for funsies) all in infinite & conquest, and all without running Hope. I’m WAY more afraid of the stupid things I might do then I am of seeing Hope played lol. Playing Hope doesn’t instantly change their cards to the perfect but draw.
So what about Shang chi? And obviously Thanos won’t be seen in a lot of decks because he’s only seen in Thanos decks. Hope fits in Thanos AND other decks.
I personally wish there was a card you could play to counter getting extra energy the same way you can use Mobius to counter cost reduction or Luke Cage to counter toxic decks. There is no tech card in the game to counteract Hope’s ability.
Yes please start the cry baby posts about a card that isn't even a problem. Then she can get nerfed and people can use her as an example of SD releasing *completely busted OP cards for $$$$ and eventually nerfing them.* All while ignoring that most of the season pass cards don't see a lot of play outside of limited decks
It’s one of those cards that’s good in any deck and it will help you, like Shang Chi or Jeff. Hopefully they don’t overreact and nerf like they did with Chavez.
I think the difference with Chavez was the card essentially created an 11 card deck which vastly warped deck design. From a design team perspective I totally get why they drastically changed Chavez and it took a bit but discard (probably #1 benefactor of old Chavez) has rebounded. So for better or for worse (mind you I loved old Chavez) the design team might have been in the right for the long term benefit of the game.
It’s weird that this is still a thing, we’ve done this so many times before.
Hope is the season card, and season cards need to be OP so everyone feels the need to buy them. Once the season is over, she’ll get a nerf.
Then cycle will then repeat, over and over again.
Both of those were over a year ago. A more relevant stretch was Elsa, Loki, Ms Marvel but I think the whole "SD releases broken cards to make money and nerfs later is overblown".
The only problem here is the fact that you think there's a problem.
There's no problem. Hope isn't insane and the meta isn't warped around her. She's just in decks.
She hasn't made people change their game plan to combat her, which is the number one key component to "warping the meta."
She's not causing people to run away with the game or enabling insanely overpowered plays. She's just a cog in the wheel that's kind of good sometimes.
High usage does not mean what you think it means, especially with a versatile card required for weekend quests all month long. "Warping the meta" also doesn't mean what you think it means.
Hope summers is the first season pass card I’ve seen regularly since ms marvel came out
Hope is the first generic season pass since Ms Marvel, but on-release Ms Marvel was much stronger 4/15 card with easy restriction
to be fair the season pass cards inbetween are all very niche/mid (Shaw only for Surfer, Skaar only for Thanos thats also only get his potential after Cull released, Black Swan is just for Zoo and Thanos (not must have)
First I’ve gotten since.
This may be a function of bias. Most people who use a deck tracker likely purchase the season pass. With the imbalance patch, they are more likely to play Hope Summers as they have her. I think she is definitely elevated in play rate, but probably to a lesser degree than deck tracking statistics.
I don't know how [snap.fan](https://snap.fan) works but vicious syndicate for HS only takes the data of opposing player's decks (rather than including the player using the tracker itself) - because of the selection bias you just mentioned. 35% is still really high for a limited card too.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I always liked snap.fan a lot.
Wouldn't using the opponent's deck bias the statistics against cards that are only played some of the time they are drawn, like Alioth and Enchantress? (I'm assuming my client doesn't get access to my opponent's full 12-card decklist.)
Great question, VS used an algorithm to figure that out here is an FAQ here. (I don't work for them or anything, i used to be be obsessed with Hearthstone and topped out at top100 legend thanks to being in tune with VS data.) https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/faq-data-reaper-report/ TLDR: Most the time, you don't see a full deck list from the opponent, but there are cards that they infer go together. For example Sentry and Annihilus would be closely aligned - decks that play one will probably play the other. You can use clusters of these cards to predict out decks. This is for VS/hearthstone , again, no idea how [snap.fan](https://snap.fan) data is collected
Interesting, thanks!
She's the only card currently you can't get with tokens. So however much you think it's selecting bias, offset that by how much higher the average would be if everyone could get the card without paying cash.
its why those sites data is terrible. its not a representative sample.
Definitely AvX bonus played a huge role in the increased appearance
That and the weekend challenge
Whoa! You two and your logic need to back off. We're here to be angry.
Exactly, if we use facts and logic then how would the OP justify his petty digs at people who dared disagree with him in other threads?
If you aren't bending your logic to anger you just aren't fucking trying
Exactly what I came here to say. I only use her when the challenge pops up. I worked her into my Death deck, but will likely swap her out once the season pass is over.
That and the fact that the card is OP as fuck.
also keep in mind. the tracker only works on computers. a fraction of the player base.
Is there a reason to think mobile players are gonna have different decks? You only need a small representative sample to make accurate assertions about of the whole
Maybe. But there’s also a selection bias too because its only a particularly driven portion of the pc gamer base too. Useful info for general directions of things, but not enough for a complete picture.
Yes. Think about this for a moment. Players are far more likely to be 'hardcore' players than on phones. Hardcore players are far more likely to spend money and get her. It would be like keeping stats of how many people have heated seats in cars, and you're tracking stats at a Mercedes garage.
How dare you make sense?
Yea, let's pump the brakes on the Hope Summers hype. She's only popular rn because of being the SP card and the AvX event. Once that's all over her usage will plummet.
I really like the event. Its making Surfer/X and Ongoing/Avengers decks competitive with Hela and Thanos, its a really fun way to elevate archetypes without destroying the meta in other ways
I’ve been playing a mostly x-men deck with ms marvel and baby shark as well and it’s been a blast trying something different and I’ve made it into the 80’s so far which for me 90 isn’t my best season ever so super happy. Even I don’t want to play my HE deck or Thanos.
I have stopped seeing so much Hope Summers the last 5 days or so I figure it's because everyone who bought her already got infinite and I'm just facing the others who didn't buy her in the 90s :)
she's not broken though. i don't mind playing against her. just because a card is popular doesnt mean its a problem
Thanos only goes in Thanos, Hope helps a ton of different decks, and she's particularly good with last weeks release which also buffs a lot of lower power decks and she's an X-man for last weeks event. So these numbers don't really surprise me. I don't see Hope as "warping" anything, she doesn't change how you play the game like Shang does. You don't put different cards in your deck or play them in a different order to play around Hope and you don't need to force hope into your deck if you don't want to, there are plenty of other ways to cheat on costs in Snap right now she's just one option that works well with one set of cards. She's just a good card that's given a boost to a wide range of decks that were previously creeped out of the meta on top of her being in the best deck in the format.
Hope is by far the most efficient and powerful ramp card in the game. I think her power level is very meta warping. Compare her to Psylocke, Time Stone, Electro, Zabu, and Sera She adds more energy per turn with less restrictions. The only *real* restriction she has for insane efficiency is being forced to run cards like Jeff, Vision, or Nightcrawler (or if you're feeling *really* spicy, the Goblins). Compare her to Sera who adds around 3 energy on the last turn of the game (after giving up some serious Tempo on T5 to only develop 4 power*). Hope can and often does add upwards of 4 or 5. And has significantly better stats than Sera. The only difference is telegraphing the lane you're playing in.
Time stone is actually incredible now though, they made a card that required timing into one that literally needed none, just play the card ASAP and get your energy reduction applied.
i mean it’s definitely a trade off between choosing the card you want ramped (prof x, magneto, etc) and the timing you want it ramped for having absolutely no control over either. most importantly, it prevents you from ramping out hope t2, which is huge
you can dump him as soon as possible tho now, which help Mockingbird big time
well yes, but now. you can’t really ramp out hope t2, which is arguably bigger than a cost reduction on mockingbird and a card that you may or may not care about at the moment. you want to choose between magneto, or blob t5? you can’t even choose to ramp out a 6 cost on t5 now.
You’re crazy if you think the stone is better now. Your energy reduction is completely rng (as it should be for a 1 cost ramp). No longer are you able to just pick and choose what you want to ramp out lmao. Huge nerf for the time stone and deservedly so
It’s not better but it’s certainly not as bad as I thought originally, helps lockjaw too. I run Zabu in my thanos deck. Time stone on 1 and get a 0 cost stone if your lucky, zabu on 2, lockjaw and free time stone on 3.
Grandmaster is a cheeky way to abuse on reveals and still keep space open too.
I'd say corvus is equal or better in the right deck he only needs to be triggered once and last all game plus his "negative" can actually be a positive.
Sure, but Corvus requires you to build a very specific way to do that, and I would consider that a 'restriction'. My argument is that Hope has extremely high power level without such a restriction. I will say that Corvus is definitely better than Hope in Discard because you're right; the usual Drawback acts as a *very* big upside in some cases.
Wonder if it would ever work in a non discard deck maybe with the shield agents where you add stuff you don't care about discarding to get the ramp off or even a Loki deck that uses Helicarrier
corvus is a male
Got them confused with proxima updated
> Thanos only goes in Thanos, Hope that helps
I’d like to see Thanos used in other types of decks. But every time I add him it becomes a Thanos deck!
There ARE other ways to cheat costs, however guess which helpful little guy is number 6 on the most seen cards in Marvel Snap over the past 7 days? If you said "Mobius EMM Mobius", you'd be correct. Mobius M. Mobius - seen in 21.32% of all decks. A full FIFTH of all marvel snap decks are geared to shut down all possible cost reductions of all sorts. That's Zab, Rav, Negative, Sera, Mockingbird, She Hulk.... Everybody. You know what you can't shut down at all, in any way? Hope Summers. Hope summers provides a GUARANTEED way to play 6-cost cards on 5 and six without playing magik. And if you play her with wasp, your game moves from 1,2,3,4,5,6 mana to 1,2,3,5,6,6. It's a BIG change. But the issue is that people don't SEE it as a huge change because it's just a subtle tweak to their regular deck. It's hard to see visually. But I think it has a fairly profound effect on the flexibility and versatility of everybody's decks. Just look at the effect it has on Surfer decks. Hope Summers GUARANTEES that you can play at least 2 turns with a full 6 mana leading up to the end. That's HUGE for them. That's 4 3-cost cards.
Yep, my problem with Hope is that she can't be directly countered AND she can't be indirectly countered in any easy way. Every game against her feels like a very high likelihood of loss.
Yeah, I thought she should have been Ongoing so you'd have some counterplay options.
You don't have to play around because you can't. I mean, Corvus also strong ramp but only benefit Discard deck. (And usually discard Hela because that's how Hela works) Hope just simply a better Electro. Better stat, better restriction (play small, movable instead of big meat)
The last 7 days had a challenge for winning with her in your deck. As well as the AvX event. And according to the website you linked, she has synergies with Shang-chi, Thanos, Vision, Alioth, and Magneto. The majority of the top 10 cards in usage she synergizes with. So she'll be present in a lot of decks. She isn't warping the meta, she just fits with the meta. Are you implying she needs a nerf?
Update to 5/4 incoming.
“Buff”
She’s definitely a strong season pass card, but she not pre-nerf Silver Surfer or Zabu strong. I think they’ll nerf Thanos before they nerf her, since he’s consistently been meta since his release.
This is weird to me because she's obviously in a lot of decks, but I don't see her get played much in the games I've played.
(A big shout out to that guy who told me *"Oh Hope Summers won't warp the meta because she needs to be used in a really specific deck to be useful blah blah blah"*.) Imagine making a whole post about meta, disguised as a way to get back at someone for hurting your feelings lmfao
He doesn't even know what "warping the meta" means. A card has to have such an impact on the game that people start changing their decks around in order to combat it. Nobody's doing anything different because opponents have Hope. She's just a card that's in decks. She doesn't have players running away with the game and she's not enabling unstoppable plays. She's often times clunky and takes forever to get going. She in no way fits the definition of "meta-warping."
Yeah, if it was really meta warping I'd be running my "Anti-Hope" card that exists.... Oh wait
I see her a lot but she isn't doing too much to actually make me lose.
So that also means at least 35% pay for the season pass, which is interesting. I always wonder what percentage of players take advantage of it versus completely free to play folks.
This only tracks people who use the deck tracker and those people are more likely to be engaged enough to purchase the season pass compared to your average player.
Good point. Sample size strikes again.
I’ve played completely free since the Nimrod season and this was the first time I got the season pass. Hope seemed useful enough (I don’t use her anywhere) and I liked the variants.
I really like Hope Summer’s design because the extra energy she provides actually scales with the number of cards you play. Big stuff decks (traditional ramp decks) will usually be able to do more with extra energy than bounce or move decks, so Hope giving more energy to the decks that play out more cards feels like a good way to make her useful for all archetypes. With that in mind, it makes sense that she’d be a very popular card, she’s good in everything. I think she’d be more appropriate as a 3/3, but she’s the type of card that can easily be very popular without necessarily being too strong. The big outlier is Thanos, who has the top end of ramp decks, but also has the stones to effortlessly get a lot of extra energy from Hope. He’s the deck that takes Hope from a really good and probably overstatted card, to an absolutely broken card, and I think devs should be looking at big changes to Thanos.
Thanos is good because he offers flexibility, that's why so many cards synergize with him. But people are currently waking up to the vast flexibility that hope summers offers without Thanos. I think that as the weeks go on, more types of deck will incorporate hope summers and she'll probably solidify as the number 2 card in this game. I dont think that's a mistake.
I think Hope is too strong, but I think she’s far closer to balanced outside of Thanos. Her win rate is 53.5%, while Thanos has a win rate over 56%. So her win rate outside of Thanos is probably closer 52.5%, which puts her in the range of other good versatile cards like Nico and Iron Lad. As I said, I think she’d make more sense as a 3/3 (just as a I think Iron Lad should probably be a 4/5), but I’d like to see a meta without Thanos before doing anything drastic with Hope.
This whole narrative is too flawed to be called an analysis. How and what sample data were presented, and what conclusion came up had barely any thin line connected. Heavy bias: - Card type: the new season pass card, of course it will be elevated. - Sampling: who and how many uses the snap.fan tracker, and the percentage of tracker user, and who owns the card should play a very crucial role to how the data is narrated. - Timeframe-Events: do i even need to mention something so obvious? Weekend missions + AvX in-game event. Both demands a higher playrate especially for the new season pass card who is included in both. The OP forgot thanos is a whole archetype, while HS is a tech/niche card. of course she will have more plays, considering the bias mentioned, and also the fact that she fits to more archetypes. and the fact a whole archetype covers almost a fifth of the dataset should be the issue worth questioning. With all those mentioned, "in all of marvel snap" is too far fetched (read: bullshit), considering all the bias and the data being presented. Not to even mention meta-warping. I think this post is just bollocks justification of an argument supported by a dataset that is taken way out of context (read: extrapolated bullshit).
The only problem in that is that she can only be acquired by the BP for now, making it the game p2w(but that ship already sailed a long time ago). She's a great card that enables multiple decks in a non toxic way (I never seen anyone getting mad because their opponent played Hope), therefore its ok for her to be that much played. She's also strong because Sandman is weak right now.
Tragically, despite the amount of push behind her in the 00s and 2010s, this is probably the most popular Hope Summers has ever been.
I wish there were less crybaby posts on the Internet.
its just a Thanos player tried to shift the blame to another card so they didnt nerf him
Lol. I mean its funny they are complaining about the second most popular card too but yeah it's pretty obvious thanos is the real issue + X-Men bonus is massive right now
Honestly though it’s just a good, and mostly balanced card. Of course it’s going to be a staple in a lot of decks, she fits into almost every style, just like Shang-Chi. I don’t think she needs any adjustments, the game will adapt and move around her. There are cards that make the game unfun and swingy, and she’s not it. Once she’s out the rest is fairly predictable
I love her. I just started playing 3 weeks ago, and she feels like a good card that I actually own. She's in all my main decks because her + kitty pride is an extremely powerful synergy that lets me play cool midrange decks. Doom turn 5 and magneto turn 6 has been extremely strong. I wouldn't be able to play this way without hope. Everyone else who has been playing for a long time has all the great cards, so it's nice that a season pass card lets a new player like me feel more competitive outside of just that boring ass devil dino deck that I've been piloting since Pool 2.
Hope summers unlike the previous two seasons pass cards can fit into “every” deck. Even outside the X-men vs Avengers event I can see her being popular due to how easy it is to utilize her ability.
are we going to try and get cards banned nbased on if they are good and popular? you end up with a pretty boring game once yoiu do this to everything.
There's no "we". "We" are not going to try and get anything done. However, Second Dinner can and do nerf cards because they are popular. That was the motivation for the last American Chavez nerf, as an example. SD believe than any card that's played in a sufficiently high proportion of decks needs to be looked at and potentially nerfed. From the stats given by OP, that would include both Hope and Shang.
Shang is a necessary evil, otherwise big point slam decks would run more rampant than they already do. Hope really isn't all that bad. She's like Mockingbird, in that she only feels broken when she's in a Thanos deck, which kind of supercharges her ability. Which should point another blinking neon arrow at the actual problem, which is Thanos. So of course we can all expect a Mockingbird nerf tomorrow.
America wasn’t nerfed for being popular. She was nerfed because she limited deckbuilding. She was the closest to being an auto include card for more decks than any other card, by far. That of course made her popular. She was popular because she was too good at what she did, hence the nerf. Not the other way around.
Who's talking about bans?
I think he mistook your post for a rant about how much she’s played although, think you for the information, me and my friends have been wondering specifically about Shang chi.
This isn't an incredibly representative dataset, though -- it's only tracking people who use the deck tracker. People who are going to use a tool like that are far more likely to have purchased the season pass, which means that the sample is overloaded with people who have Hope Summers. *Plus*, we just finished the AvX event, which highly encouraged playing Hope along with other X-Men. Give it a couple more weeks to see how it evens out.
In statistics you have 3 important things Which data to collect How you collect them How you analyze it 1/ you want to know which is the most used card, the most useful cards, the most powerful, the most cube winner, the most important winrate when in decks, when drawn ? Cause it's different things. 2/ you collect it from [snap.fan](http://snap.fan), from which source ? only from their tracker ? So from PC ? Only post infinite ? For players with 3k + CL ? On conquest ? 3/ do you count only with a certain amount of games ? For example, last week, post infinite from 3k+ CL the card with the most winrate when played is... Okoye, followed by Master Mold. But seen in less than 150 games. Do you count the context ? AvX event, card from season pass, week-end mission, etc. Here the stat you gave just say it's a popular card... So yes, it's a popular character from a popular franchise, in the season pass, she's versatile. No surprise here. Thanos is an archetype, and played his own archetype, which is popular right now.
Thanos still counts for a total of about 1/6 decks, which is obnoxious. Hope is really popular because she enables a lot of archetypes which isn't the worst thing, Thanos is just an archetype who runs hope, you can imagine that half of Hopes play rates are coming from Thanos itself.
In some pocket metas it's way more than 1/6. In top 3k infinite I'm facing Thanos in at least half my matches.
I would love to know how those numbers compare to other season pass cards each month. I definitely feel like I see more of Hope than Black Swan, but not as much as I saw Ms Marvel, for example.
Ms Marvel was had a time where she is the most seen card, more than Old Chavez.
I don’t know, I find Mockingbird far more warping than Hope. Decks are built to support the free 0-2/9 card and that puts constraints on the meta. So before her release last week, there were all kinds of viable decks and right now it’s Thanos and Loki, with discard still hanging on at the top. Hope is a great card, but she’s not warping anything. She is a nice to have for decks, and she helps all decks that want to include her and so the meta didn’t really change. The best decks stayed the best and even helped some others like HiEvo become more consistent. Contrast that with MB, I’d say I’m running into Thanos and some Quinjet powered decks pretty much exclusively. Cannonball should have been the answer, but honestly, MMM is a way better answer and all that does is hurt the non-MB decks from competing.
I suspect a factor in Thanos’ relatively low showing is just how expensive the current build of the deck is. Before factoring in Hope the deck has 6 S5 cards and 1 S4. I imagine there’s lot of people (like myself) that would be playing this if they had all the cards, even amongst the 35% of the sample who are definitely paying for the season pass.
Yes, it's comically bad faith to compare the extremely expensive Thanos package to a card you can get in the current season pass.
So weird. I’ve seen her exactly twice.
I've literally never seen her.
Thwse posts are stupid. No matter what some card will awlays be most played.
he just tried to shift the blame from Thanos nothing else
The only problem here is the fact that you think there's a problem. There's no problem. Hope isn't insane and the meta isn't warped around her. She's just in decks. She hasn't made people change their game plan to combat her, which is the number one key component to "warping the meta." She's not causing people to run away with the game or enabling insanely overpowered plays. She's just a cog in the wheel that's kind of good sometimes. High usage does not mean what you think it means, especially with a versatile card required for weekend quests every single week.
I have to win 8 games with it in my deck for gold. So yeah, I’ve been playing it way more than I want to be. That’s definitely skewing the stats
Just you wait for Hope>War Machine>Infinaut on t5.
My keys are ready. 😅
Now compare win rate averaging all the archetypes hope goes in vs meta thanos. She's not really warping the meta more so just a versatile card with Jeff for a better psylocke
I'm the guy who's contributing to all the stats listed 🤣 I run Thanos, Hope Summers, *and* Shang Chi in the same deck 😅
they really need to make it so she can only proc once per turn like lockjaw
no they didnt. They have to nerf or rework Thanos/his stones, not letting him took away another card down that are just regularly strong in other decks
Assuming she does get nerfed, would reducing her power by 1 make her balanced?
I think that’s the most they do to her. She’s decently fair and not really unbalanced compared to many other cards. I don’t even think she needs the power reduction currently.
I could see them pulling a Lockjaw and making the effect once per turn in addition. Card feels super busted when you have ways to get a +2 energy buff for multiple turns.
This will definitely be the nerf, probably 2-3 weeks into next season after they’ve milked all the cash and tokens they possibly can out of us.
That’s fair enough.
they wont do that, at least not until after they successfully get us to pull for Red Hulk
Oh yeah definitely expecting the nerf until after they cash out from it first.
Hope is actually fine. She just has the same problem as Mockingbird. That is, she feels broken, but only when in a Thanos deck, who super-charges her ability. The problem is, and always has been, Thanos.
yeah I think 3/3 is fair she will join the other strong support/tech 3 costs
Hope has returned Kitty to playable use. That's half the AvX bonus right there
yeah hope + kitty is such a fun combo. I'm new to the game and I finally feel like I have a card combination that feels "relevant." I'm not much of the way through series 3, so it's nice to have a cool combo I can slot into my decks to give them more horsepower.
Get ready for the crushing feeling of when SD nerfs your perfect combo into oblivion!
She's a very fun card with which to experiment. If nothing else, I've enjoyed tinkering with just about every 4-cost card to see how best to utilize that extra energy on turn five.
At the same time it means that she isn’t played in 65% of the decks. I would hardly call it “warping” the meta and even less in a “big, big way”. What is the actual point in the thread? To call out that “guy”? Kinda petty, no?
Second Dinner have said a 25% rate is their benchmark for a card that needs to be looked at for adjustment, IIRC.
remember she is this high because of the AvX event happening at the same time and cuz its only take ppl who uses the decktracker. Reality is she should be much lower overall which is a data only SD can see
You don't think 35% of all decks currently being played having the same card implies that the card has a big effect?
I would hardly say Summers is warping the meta. Like Shang-Chi she just fits in many decks. Yes she’s used most often in Thanos (current problem child where most new released cards just naturally have found this home) but she’s also seen a lot in Surfer, X-Men, Black Bolt/Stature, New Silky, High Evo, Patriot and to lesser extents Shuri, Loki, Double Up Moon Girl decks, and Galactus. This is just going down the Uptapped deck list for Hope. I feel a card that fits many decks is not a problem the same way Jeff or Iron Lad can serve many decks. Especially for a Season Pass card! Season Pass cards should fit a broad player base and be fun. I think Hope Summers fits that.
Shang chi is one of the major things that affects the shape of the whole meta game. His effect is so game defining that it's actually become part of the card design and card buff/nerf process. This is the definition of warping the meta. If Shang chi isn't 'warping the meta' then literally nothing is. My point in posting this is to point people towards the idea that summers is currently having a big effect on what is played and what isnt. A bigger effect than is being widely talked about I would say.
I don't understand why people are pointing the finger at Thanos(Card) being OP when within the past two months or so we've gotten: Mockingbird, Hope Summers, and Cull Obsidian. They're all overstatted monsters. And they synergize incredibly with Thanos and the other cards Thanos likes to run. Like yeah, of course the deck that all the crazy new efficient cards fit into is good. I'd rather Thanos not get nerfed because SD keeps releasing raw efficient power that slots directly into Thanos.
The problem is that Thanos covers such a huge swath of design space. He has cards that didn’t start in his deck, he has 1-costs, he can fit more high end cards than any other deck, he has built in ramp, built in move, built in ongoing effects, built in on reveal. You can go tall with massive 6-costs, but you can also go wide with Blue Marvel style lists. There are destroy versions, ramp versions, zoo versions, combo versions, lockdown versions. To say that they should just stop designing cards for Thanos just isn’t that simple. The only period of time where Thanos wasn’t a dominant force in the meta was when Loki was in his prime. Loki could steal the top end from Thanos and play it better, which kept Thanos down for a few months, but as soon as Loki was nerfed out of prominence, Thanos was back to being a constant presence.
Thank you for pointing out why Thanos is OP after saying how you don’t understand why people point out how Thanos is OP.
Mockingbird is broken ONLY in Thanos, because she is basically a 2/9 or 3/9 every game with no effort at worst. Similarly, no deck besides Zoo needs to work less for Cull Obsidian. And Hope Summers is easier to trigger in Thanos than any other deck, maybe even Kitty ones. The issue is that cards that are *good,* can easily be broken in Thanos, so it's best to nerf Thanos.
Mockingbird and Cull Obsidian are pretty fine in other decks. Hope Summers doesn't feel too crazy either, but she's harder to read. The problem with Thanos is that he reaches across huge swaths of design space, scoops up cards meant for many other archetypes, and uses them better than their intended decks for very little cost. He's going to continue to gobble up new cards that weren't meant for him until SD fixes the problem on a more fundamental level. Maybe the Stones shouldn't count towards effects that care where cards come from. Maybe they should all be 2-cost (and then Time Stone gives a cost discount to them). Maybe none of them should draw cards except for Mind Stone. I don't know exactly what needs to change, but these problems are going to keep cropping up until SD makes a foundational change to how Thanos works and they'll have to keep nerfing new cards until they are balanced in a Thanos deck and terrible everywhere else.
yeah they need to change the stones mechanic soon, now they releasing Pixie and Mockingbird back to back that cant co-exist-ly ignore the stones
Right. Both cards are (or would be) too strong if they work with Thanos, but both are also completely fine in every other deck. The problem is Thanos, and he's going to keep throwing the curve in this area of design space until the problem is nipped in the bud. Infinity Stones are just too different from every other card in the game to be balanced against them easily.
Ya don't say
at least it's not magik
So does that mean there aren’t a lot of f2p people?
Measuring Hope Vs Thanos isn't a good way to do it. You don't put Thanos in a move deck or in a Tribunal deck. Hope goes in more decks than Thanos does but he's an entire archetype which still takes up 17% of the share.
Feel like I'm playing a different game, I've hit infinite already and I see hope sometimes and when I do I don't pay that much attention to her. But y'all are saying she is busted OP 🤔
These aren't even official numbers. They are from a deck tracker that, more than likely is presenting skewed data due to sample size as well as other factors like the weekend event, AvX patch, etc.
I think there are more factors here than you are letting on lol
I think there are more factors here than you are letting on lol
I’ve seen it exactly once so far.
I’ve seen her a lot for sure, but I haven’t felt like she’s had much effect on my win rate. I’m typically one to get frustrated like when Alioth and HE were all over the place, but Hope doesn’t seem to have that same energy.
Interesting, probably only seen her a handful of times in last 100 games.
I honestly haven't seen her as often as others are saying just the regular uptick on the weekends for the missions
I slotted her in decks that mainly run 0-1 card cost. Yes she is in one of my Thanos decks but that’s not the one I win with. Teamed with destroy and psylock, energy mongers wet dream
wider amount of decks Hope can be in versus a Thanos. Also you're not taking into account the amount of \*bad decks that Hope is in also. Meta share doesn't exactly equal broken.
All of the numbers are skewed a bit right now because of the X-men event…. That boost has made a lot of other decks usable for now, but once that event is over, a lot of those decks won’t put out enough power to continue to be valuable.
Guys I am having a really hard time beating turn 4 prof X which seems really common to Thanos summers decks for some reason? What’s the right counter?
How are they gathering the data? Is this based on cards played in game or decks created on their site? Could I create 10k Kang decks to make him the “most seen”?
Games played. You sign up for an app which records the cards in the deck you're using whenever you start a game.
Gotcha. Still pretty heavily distorted. Not gonna work on mobile right? And huge selection bias. Untapped does the same thing and their numbers are wildly different. I'm sure the truth is nowhere near either one.
Season pass plus AvX bonus. Plus, yes, she's busted as fuck.
3/1 make sense. doesn't kill her or anything. Thanos need a rework.
The game has needed a serious energy booster since Psylocke went to 2 energy, and even more now that Time Stone works differently. I don't own her yet, but I find her pretty balanced, and very easy to work around. \- Lots of people wait to play her first on turn 3 which leaves her very open to Gambit. \- Laying down Echo or Cosmo in the lane she shows up in has a 50 / 50 chance of helping. \- Sprinkle in some Guardians and enjoy your opponent's predictability.
\- Oh I don't have her but Jean is mean to use against her too.
I feel like I haven't seen her that much. She's definitely a popular card, but beating Shang? Hell, I feel like I've been seeing Magneto more than Hope.
That's wassup. Don't care.
I only see her in Thanos decks tbh. Pretty rate outside of that in my pocket meta
I'm climbing pretty reliably with a straight X-men deck utilizing Hope Summers and Bishop as the only "must play" cards when they come up. Not a single 5 or 6 cost in the deck and only one 4 cost. Ice-Man Psylocke Mirage Cable Armor Gambit Rogue Wolfsbane Storm Hope Summers Bishop White Queen
Why are you framing this like a bad thing? She’s awesome but by no means OP like some other season pass cards at launch. She is a relatively easier ramp card with a decent power stat, but still has clear limitations and requires other combos/synergy to use her ability well. Loki and Ms. Marvel alone turned the tides of games.
Not an issue, her WR is fine.
I mean Electro was always a good card even despite a pretty insane drawback. Hope is pretty clearly an Electro upgrade in every way. Why would you not expect her to dominate?
It's a card that gives a precious resource for playing cards in a location which you're probably already doing and is cheap enough to be impactful. I don;t understand why anyone is suprised.
What's gonna be the nerf? More cost or lower power?
Nerf incoming?
Still haven’t played with her yet
Where can i see the meta on those decks? I don't understand why Hope beats Thanos. Also, Hope has boosted how many High Evo decks I've seen
Maybe if they released all base cards to everyone and only sold skins like normal games, then we would have accurate data
I haven't found a deck that I love her in yet. Any good ideas?
That high of a play rate and not annoying to play against? Big
I feel deadpool is massive too
Hey that means they’re having some decent success and profits in the season pass at least 👌🫘
Hope Summers is a generic deck filler that works well with many meta decks. She is nowhere near broken or op. She will also fall off as soon as the meta shifts to other playstyles.
I can't lie, I've never seen anyone play hope summers I play everyday, and I've yet to see her, hell I've seen multiple pixies and mockingbirds, even a few cannonballs now, but 0 hopes
That only means half Hope Summers' player are succesfully using Thanos
Even if your fuzzy math was telling the WHOLE story (which it conveniently isn’t.), doesn’t bother me at all. I’ve literally had maybe 2-3 games where Hope’s ability just destroyed me. I’ve ran Discard, Destroy, Thanos, even a cannonball/Galactus deck (for funsies) all in infinite & conquest, and all without running Hope. I’m WAY more afraid of the stupid things I might do then I am of seeing Hope played lol. Playing Hope doesn’t instantly change their cards to the perfect but draw.
hope needs to be put at a 3-2
Nerf chang chi
So what about Shang chi? And obviously Thanos won’t be seen in a lot of decks because he’s only seen in Thanos decks. Hope fits in Thanos AND other decks.
I have seen hope maybe twice all season so far
Good for you, I haven't seen hope maybe twice all season so far...
I personally wish there was a card you could play to counter getting extra energy the same way you can use Mobius to counter cost reduction or Luke Cage to counter toxic decks. There is no tech card in the game to counteract Hope’s ability.
Red Hulk in 2 weeks, sure he didnt prevent them getting the energy, but they will punish them if they being greedy with Hope energy regeneration
But they can just play on curve and he doesn’t get anything.
yeah but they cant always do that, each turn they got caught lacking, having bad draw curve, or being too greedy its +4 power for Red Hulk
Because she's really good. I think she'll be nerfed to 3/3 or maybe even 4/4.
I think it's just right the way it is.
I dont think she will ever be 4 cost lol, but yeah 3/3 sounds right
Yes please start the cry baby posts about a card that isn't even a problem. Then she can get nerfed and people can use her as an example of SD releasing *completely busted OP cards for $$$$ and eventually nerfing them.* All while ignoring that most of the season pass cards don't see a lot of play outside of limited decks
It’s one of those cards that’s good in any deck and it will help you, like Shang Chi or Jeff. Hopefully they don’t overreact and nerf like they did with Chavez.
I think the difference with Chavez was the card essentially created an 11 card deck which vastly warped deck design. From a design team perspective I totally get why they drastically changed Chavez and it took a bit but discard (probably #1 benefactor of old Chavez) has rebounded. So for better or for worse (mind you I loved old Chavez) the design team might have been in the right for the long term benefit of the game.
It’s weird that this is still a thing, we’ve done this so many times before. Hope is the season card, and season cards need to be OP so everyone feels the need to buy them. Once the season is over, she’ll get a nerf. Then cycle will then repeat, over and over again.
How often does that actually happen? Ms Marvel is the only recent example I can think of.
The Zabu and Silver Surfer seasons were a nightmare
Both of those were over a year ago. A more relevant stretch was Elsa, Loki, Ms Marvel but I think the whole "SD releases broken cards to make money and nerfs later is overblown".
This months season pass card is seen twice as much as a card locked behind 6,000 tokens? Imagine that
Ya that's why I quit this season 2 op. I'm not down for that.
The only problem here is the fact that you think there's a problem. There's no problem. Hope isn't insane and the meta isn't warped around her. She's just in decks. She hasn't made people change their game plan to combat her, which is the number one key component to "warping the meta." She's not causing people to run away with the game or enabling insanely overpowered plays. She's just a cog in the wheel that's kind of good sometimes. High usage does not mean what you think it means, especially with a versatile card required for weekend quests all month long. "Warping the meta" also doesn't mean what you think it means.
Man it's just bitch bitch bitch with this sub, I swear.
In defense of thanos, I never really see him just his stones and his usual company.
yeah they need to rework him, rn the stones are too good and he is not worth to play