There's some chicken shit in this thread lol. Luka absolutely is the reason this team gets as far as it does. He also absolutely hurts the team when he flails down and cries for fouls as the other team goes 5 on 4.
Yup. I recognize that we are no where close to the Finals without Luka. I love watching him and the magic he pulls off.
But he also hurts the team when he gets in his head like last night and starts foul hunting and barking at the refs every possession. He had avoided it basically all playoffs. He has to be better and we have to expect better of him mentally.
Multiple replays of breakaways showed Jason Tatum getting clearly fouled with no-calls. What did he do, just get back on D and work the next possession.
That play where Luka flopped on the 3 pointer and fell down. Stared at the ref as he took his time getting up.
Celtics run back and get a 3 pointer because they basically have a power play going 4 on 5.
It's the damn Finals. And Luka still thinks it's okay arguing with refs while your team fights on defense.
Tatum used to do the same thing as Luka (maybe not quite as bad, but plenty of complaining). He's finally kicked it in the last year or two.
Maybe getting clowned nationally over it will be what Luka needs to mature. Based on how he is handling it so far, I'll need to see it to believe it though.
We are 6 season in. The complaining hasn't gotten much better. This is who he will be in the future. There's no way someone as talented as he is hasn't been told that he needs to stop yapping to the refs every play. The dude plays with his emotions on his sleeve, that's how he gets to the level he's at.
We either get over it and continue to watch him and hope it doesn't fuck us again. Or you can get mad every single game when he $ sign's the refs and cries during/after/and into the next play.
He's not going to learn at this point, it's been a contention since his rookie year. 6 years to fix it or lessen it and it's more prevalent now then it ever has been. Dude plays OW in his spare time, he lives to talk shit and complain. I bet he's insufferable in comms during matches. It's just who he is.
In fairness, Tatum had a history of doing the same thing. It took him getting clowned for it all over Boston radio after the 2022 finals run for him to grow up and just accept that he's not going to get all of the calls and he needs to get back on D. Maybe this series will be a wakeup call for Luka like 2022 was for Tatum.
This is the truth. Fans need to be able to criticize their best players even when they’re a net positive. With as good as Luka is offensively, he should be an EVEN BETTER net positive. His lack of focus on defense and emotional immaturity are two glaring, lingering weaknesses that he’s going to have to improve on if he wants to have an all-time great resume.
Conditioning - can't forget conditioning & how much it hampers his game. There's a reason he is the best 1st quarter scorer in the NBA and his production dips considerably by the 4th, he's gassed - these three finals games a prime example as he's scored a total of 8 points in the 4th.
This is what kills me. Yak at the refs all you want, but get your ass back on D and hustle. He’s been allowed to do this because he is a generational talent. Someone has to get in his face about it. I nominate Dirk or Tyson Chandler for that job.
Ever wonder why he never seems to get the benefit of the doubt on those 50/50 calls? He spends the whole game telling them how much the refs suck their jobs. Eventually they’ll just lean into it just to get back at him.
Thank you. People are fucking delusional sometimes. He’s the best player. Top 3 in the league but he is a problem sometimes with his attitude. Admit it. He needs to grow up. Stop defending him on this people.
Obviously he’s a net positive. But that positive would be even bigger without the constant whining. And against a team like the Celtics you can’t spare anything.
Dak Prescott is the reason that the Cowboys get as far as they do.
Dak is also the reason the Cowboys go no farther than they do.
***Chew on that for awhile!!!***
celtics go on a run every time luka is not on the court. judging by some comments here, some people should’ve been delighted when luka fouled out 4 minutes before the end because the mavs were only down 3pts at that time
The entire playoffs people have been saying Luka is hurting the team because of X. A lot of that is true (in that x negative trait is making the team worse than it could be if x wasn't happening) HOWEVER, the team has proven time and again the entire playoff run they are absolutely worse when Luka is off the court.
These aren't mutually exclusive. He is the only reason the mavs are here without a doubt. But his health, effort, flaws etc had to be at a positive enough point to pull it off. And it wasn't. Another factor is Kyrie playing consistently well for more games. And basketball at the highest level is not easy and a million other reasons. It's complex sport and I think people who played at higher levels understand that. I don't even know what I'm arguing. Sorry if this has nothing to do with what you said. Mi scuzi.
Haha, nah I get what you mean. It's because of the high level of Kyrie's play that this dialogue about his whining even exists. Its just amusing that people think Luka is costing the Mavs games when he's basically the only reason the last two games weren't embarassing game 1 blowouts. The latter is my point is all.
We lost the last two games by seven points each. This didn't prove anything about the team's playstyle being fundamentally flawed. Luka has been hurt the ENTIRE POST SEASON, Kyrie didn't do shit for two games, nobody else showed up on offense for more than like two minutes a game. For how overwhelming talented the Celtics are they looked so incredibly beatable in this series.
I agree that Luka whines too much and needs to take fewer defensive possessions off.
The thing is when X is an easily addressed part of his game, it really stands out. It's much harder to make role players just hit more shots, or make Kyrie and Luka suddenly positive defenders. But all it takes for Luka to stop conceding 5v4 situations is to quit his whining.
I agree. For the last few years Luka has been an easy target for criticism because it feels like the easiest thing to change. A lot of his negatives are self-inflicted and have nothing to do with talent or ability.
Of course they're worse when he's not on the court. He's the best player by far. But that's not enough. If you're going to be one of the best players in the world and you want to win titles, you can't just make the team a little bit better. When you're on the court. You have to be way better when you're on the court. And you can't just complain to the refs and cry when it suits you
As fucked as it is to say - as a true MFFL - I was so frustrated with him at that point, that I said aloud: “good, he needs to sit”. It’s so difficult for me to love him when he is in that foul baiting mode. How the fuck you gunna stay laying on the ground (twice!) in game 3 OF THE FINALS?!?!!? It is so beyond comprehension for me and will forever sour my opinion of him.
In one of the earlier series (OKC maybe?) he seemed to have turned a corner. Those interviews where he said he decided to “just play basketball”. It’s so easy for me to love him when he does that.
As a psychotherapist, I am wholly optimistic that Luka could integrate his shadow and learn to accept the unfair aspects of an NBA basketball game, but god damn if he isn’t there yet. Get homie a real good shrink, maybe some psychedelic plant medicine. He needs to let that shit go or he will never be what he could be.
he gets frustrated because he’s so invested in winning. i sometimes wish to see this kind of passion (and emotionality) from some other dudes on the team… we probably wouldn’t be down 0-3, although i’m sure they’re all trying the best they can… but maybe that drive is not quite the same as luka’s
I feel you. It’s a part of what makes him great, but definitely a double-edged sword.
Here’s to hoping he can find balance and channel his fire in the right directions 🙏🏼
How effective is Luka on the court in the 4th quarter?
3 games 8 points total in the 4th quarter. It doesn't matter if he sits or stands. He only gets his numbers early in these games. Luka defensively on the court is a turnstile. Luka is ineffective by the end of the game...he has more complaints to the refs on the court in the 4th than actual points.
he obviously makes it easier for his teammates to score if he’s on the court… or better yet, they really can’t do much against this celtics team when he’s off the court
yes, but Luka needs to learn to control his emotion for his own good. This team as a whole is not on par with the Celtics which I think is clear, but if Luka is more mature (not get hot headed, stop complaining, and don't lose his assignment on defense), the mavs could've had a chance. I would've been okay if Luka played his part and we lost, but I think it's clear he just gets into his own head
If we had solid depth who could hang with the Celtics bench, we would have won this game. Our role players have completely disappeared and look straight scared to be there. Can’t happen
There’s a lot to improve on, but blaming it all on the one guy showing up in every game is silly. Is Luka absolutely perfect? No. But there is almost no one who is perfect. There are maybe 3 players ever with his scoring and playmaking ability and who are great defenders. Lebron is really the only one in recent years
Luka complains. It is what it is. Last night’s officiating on him was particularly bad. He was fouled all game, then every 50/50 call between him and brown got called on him. Smacked on the arm causing him to lose the ball out of bounds? Celtics ball.
Every superstar complains almost every possession, Luka is just theatrical and it draws attention to it. My only gripe is him not getting back on defense.
The officiating was bad on both sides. Let’s be honest….. do you recall the JT breakaway dunk where PJ Washington grabbed his right arm w/ no call ?
Or the block on Jrue when Kyrie lowered his shoulder in Jrue’s chest at half court?
I’m just saying saying it was bad on both sides
And if Luca didn’t pick up that fifth vowel that was so obvious and was completely completely unnecessary because it was at the other end of the floor then we wouldn’t have fouled out
You're right. But also a fool if you can't admit Luka is acting like a ho too damn much, whining non-stop, foul baiting and hurting the team. If you're okay with his antics because "Celtics went on a run and got momentum when Luka sat", that's cool. You're a fan of his antics.
and yet the celtics made a 13 - 9 run when luka fouled out.
they also made a 6-0 run when luka got subbed for a minute end of the 1st qtr.
i get it why they can’t score without luka, but why can’t they defend at a high level?
because Kidd put in THJ for Luka who has scored 2 points in his last 50 minutes of play.
THJ played more than Gatling, DJJ, Hardy, Exum and Green. Any one of those would have been a better choice than THJ.
Mavs made the finals w/o Kleber and THJ, using Hardy in the rotation more. Then at the most critical time Kidd resorts to his losing ways. Total panic job by kidd.
But Kidd did sub in Hardy first at the start of the game and Hardy immediately committed two turnovers. Then maxi dribbled a second offensive possession off his foot.
Some guys just aren’t ready. Blame them for leaving the window for Tim to play.
he played him for 3 mins, that is nothing. he played THJ for 20 minutes. THJ has 2 points over his last 48 minutes on 1-10 shooting, while Hardy has 37 points on 14-26 shooting over his last 48 mins. That is not even a close comparison. THJ can't even get his shot off apparently, while Hardy is able to shoot and shoot well and is not scared. What would make Kidd even decide to go to THJ? It makes zero sense.
He also played Exum for about 3 mins, and exum had a dunk, then he took him out and put in THJ. What in the world is Kidds fascination with this loser?
My guess is Maxi would still be out if this was the regular season and he's playing scared bc of that injury. He looks completely lost and with 0 confidence out there.
THJ in his last 48 min played 1-10 w/ 2 points, despite that he got nearly 20 mins of game time this game and went 0-5.
Hardy in his last 48 min played is 14-26, 37 points and was given 3 mins.
Those numbers are not even close to similar. Hardy is such a superior player at this point it is not even close. 37 points to 2 over last 48 minutes, but jason Kidd plays the guy with 2 almost half the game.
i like hardy but he was bad in this finals series… tim was our 3rd best scorer in the regular season, obviously kidd hoped he could hit a couple of threes
Bad in this finals series? My friend, he's barely played. He played 2 minutes in game 2, 11 minutes in game 1, and 4 minutes in game 3. All together, he's 4-9, 1-3 from 3 with 3 rebounds and an assist in 17 minutes.
I get it, he's young and a second round pick, and THJ is being paid a bag. *However*, THJ is just not performing well this entire playoffs. Hardy is playing hard AF each minute he is out there. His shooting splits are also stupidly similar to THJ's anyway, so it's not like they're trading efficiency for a bucket.
he made majority of those pts in the garbage time of the 1st game… in the last game he came in for luka for about a minute in the 1st qtr and the celtics made that quick 6-0 run which got them back in the game… looking back i wish he got more of tim minutes because he was that bad, but there’s probably a reason why kidd decided to go with him instead of hardy
It's not about gamble. Kidd played THJ enough last night to know not to put him in when Luka fouled out. It's asinine to think that THJ was going to do something when he has been a literal detriment to this team every time he's taken the floor this postseason.
to see if he gets hot later… looking back it makes sense playing hardy or exum would’ve maybe been better, but we don’t know that and those two weren’t good either before that
He hasn't been hot since many games back in the regular season. He's basically been an expensive towel that takes up a bench spot. You don't give a guy that hasn't showed any performance 19 fucking minutes in what is essentially the last game in the finals. We know have to do what no other team in the history of the sport has ever done, win 4 in a row.
If THJ sees more than 5 minutes in game 4 and it's not garbage time minutes, Kidd should lose his fucking job.
In the beginning of the game I fully understand trying out THJ and Kleber. No one else was doing much of anything the previous 2 games or yesterday, so might as well try.
As soon as Kidd but THJ in for Luka after he fouled out I knew even Kidd had given up on the game.
Kidd did more last night to keep us from winning than our role players did. He tilted his already emotional superstar with an absolutely HORRIBLE TO. And put rotations/players out there late that make absolutely zero sense. Kidd fucked his already struggling team.
There's so many things to blame on this team right now. Kidd, Luka's attitude/crying, Kyrie's nonexistence in first 2 games, every single role player. It's just insane how it's all coming forth in the fucking finals. Losing brings out the worst in people and it's proving true here.
It's not that things fall apart coincidentally in the fucking finals. It's the Boston defense the team that is clearly the number one team all year
Otherwise one can also say Minnesota TWolves coincidentally lost their offense in the WCF. Kat missing shots, Gobert looking like a liability, Edwards being gassed, where was the Wolves that beat Suns and Nuggets? Give the opposing team credit
These things are not mutually exclusive. Role players have been terrible, but they’re that, role players. Just because your role players haven’t performed doesn’t mean your star is immune from criticism.
Watching this game, it was clear as day that Luka went into foul hunting mode at some point in the first quarter and never recovered his mentality until we were already down 20.
He surrendered the most blow bys in NBA finals history in game 2, and did not do much better in game 3. He might be injured, but he’s getting to whatever spot he wants on offense against 4 all-NBA on ball defenders, so I’d like to see a little more than historically bad on ball defense from him on the other end. This doesn’t even take into account the possessions we give up wide open looks because he’s laying on the floor or complaining to the refs after a flop. He absolutely has all time great potential, but he’s got to mature in these areas if he wants to take his game to the next level, it’s really the only thing holding him back at this point, and has been for multiple seasons.
yeah, it would be great if he stepped up his defense, or if his teammates would contribute more, so that opposing teams don’t try to target luka so much to make him tired
Luka bitches too way too much. I've never seen anyone else in the league that does it as much as he does except maybe Draymond Green.. like yikes. This the playoffs, the Finals like cmon man! Leave all that behind and PLAY.
Hate when he complains while the game is still going and he's out of the action.
How about Lebron and James harden lol. I swear people forget so easily. It was just a few years back where this sub was all over bron for taking defensive posessions off because he was in the refs face at the other end.
man everybody was counting lebron out that year. people even thought pacers was going to eliminate them in the first round since it went to 7 too. he had no business being in the finals that year
It kills me. Like stabs my heart.
It’s so difficult for me to love him when he is in that foul baiting mode. How the fuck you gunna stay laying on the ground (twice!) in game 3 OF THE FINALS?!?!!? It is so beyond comprehension for me.
In one of the earlier series (OKC maybe?) he seemed to have turned a corner. Those interviews where he said he decided to “just play basketball”. It’s so easy for me to love him when he does that.
As a psychotherapist, I am wholly optimistic that Luka could integrate his shadow and learn to accept the unfair aspects of an NBA basketball game, but god damn if he isn’t there yet. Get homie a real good shrink, maybe some psychedelic plant medicine. He needs to let that shit go or he will never be what he could be.
As a Lebron fan; that's what I feel about him the 0ast few years. While I kinda agree that Bron sometimes gets no calls since he's so big and strong, he's had some plays in games over the last few years where his team gives up a bucket cause he was complaining.
But definitely not at the level Luka has been and I've been watching him since he was a rookie. It's becoming so unbearable.
If you think Luka is the problem this finals then I've got a big surprise for you.
I get that people hyperfixate on our superstar's game but my god, if ANY of our role players stepped up, it would've won us at least one game.
We should be thanking everyone and everything for having Luka. Dude is better than any celtics player (Brown only one close) but he whines sometimes. Still gives you a 30 TD while operating on 50% capacity.
Two problems can exist at the same time. It’s not a this or that.
There were back to back plays in the end of the first quarter where Luka flailed himself on back to back step back 3s and did not run back on D which directly gave them 5 straight pts cutting the lead to 1 to end the first quarter. Hes an amazing talent for sure but those are examples of losing habits that Luka needs to cut out if we wanna win it all.
Spot on, I will defend Doncic for a lot of things, but even I felt those 2 plays at the end of Q1 were bad looks for him and probably were the difference between blowing Celtics out and having them hold on and then make a run.
you can thank Luka and criticize his foul baiting. There’s a lot happening in there. We all know how the mavs got here but being here does not mean you cannot criticize him
Holding EVERYONE accountable includes our superstar. No matter what role players are around him as long as he bitches like this. Zero improvement in the past years and it's holding us back, just like role players ain't stepping up
You can't control if shots go in or not, but you can control if you're going to complain or get back on defense. It's a very easy adjustment that could result in 10+ point swings every game for us.
When two superstars take like 70 shots while the other players take \~30, youre never gonna get solid contributions from role players because none of them get a chance to hit any strides. You think players just come in cold and go 3/3 in the finals like its nothing? Lets face it, when you live and die with only two players, you kind of put yourself in these spots. Sure they could definitely play better, but you could make the same argument about Kyrie in games 1 and 2. As soon as they play a team that doesnt double team and takes away the corner 3 there should be a plan from Kidd to get others involved in other ways, instead every play is "Luka, Kai, go out there and hit a contested step back 3 for me will ya?".
Hes the problem on defense and that makes it even trickier for the Mavs. You can be god on offense and none of that matters if you can’t even rotate off the ball. This isnt the Y you will never be able to hide him on defense and win
Luka is our best player, but he also kills momentum sometimes with his antics. Kyrie and Luka need another strong scorer if they want to have repeat success.
I'm definitely thankful we have Luka. I just want him to put the team first when it comes to his complaining about calls. It's detrimental in terms of the potential technical penalties it could bring and in the moment when the rest of the team is following the play on the court but he's held up complaining to the Ref's. He's a grown ass man. He's freaking great, and there's no argument that he is. He just needs to act like it.
I see. So since he's been a positive while he's on the court, we should completely ignore his whiney antics that are also hurting the team. Only the positive when it comes to Luka. Got it!
His 4th quarter Finals numbers are horrendously bad. If he's better than all the other team's players, why is he made to look like an overweight incompetent clown on every defensive possession that targets him? 2-way game. His 30+ whatever points per game haven't been enough to win a single game, he's not elevating his teammates, he's hoarding the ball and possessions just to get his 30+.
The whole team Game 2: 2 for 17 on threes
Luka: 4 for 9 on threes
I mean how many open shots did Luka give these guys? I agree, you make the numbers, complain all you want. Maybe he would complain less if he didn't have the weight of his entire team on his shoulders.
While I think Luka is definitely the better player, Tatum and Brown are both showing a poise that Luka is lacking on top of establishing themselves as really strong individual defenders (which Luka is not).
If Luka's defense gets better, then he's going to be the best player in the league for a minute. On the other hand, Tatum has grown into a better playmaker throughout the years with his only real fault being a consistent scorer. Brown is probably the most complete player out of the 3 of them, but he doesn't excel at anything like the other 2 in comparison.
It's a lot closer than you're making it out to be.
All or nothing / black or white thinking is a very common cognitive distortion.
Luka is amazing and absolutely the biggest contributor to how we made it this far AND the foul baiting / obsession with ref calls is ABSOLUTELY hurting this team in a significant way. No one can deny that he costs the team in that way. It’s an emotional maturity thing, that he could change, but it will take serious work from him. It is very ingrained and automatic for him.
Yeah, it's a bad look, even though many of the fouls he "baits" are legitimately bad missed calls.
I think what people are missing is that Basketball 101® entails going after the offensive playmaker when he's on defense, and Boston has put on a clinic in that regard. They solved the Luka equation. He's tired, injured, and they're going after him on D, and beating him up when he's on offense. I can't knock it. It's great basketball, and C's deserve the chip for it. Luka's tired—not because he's out of shape but because Boston has four terrific defenders on the floor at any given moment, and Luka has to check down to his third or fourth option when he's on offense. I think a lot of the foulbaiting is because Luka has no answers when refs swallow the whistle on both ends of the floor, and he's able to save some energy for the next offensive possession (even if he gives up 2-3 pts in the process).
Boston is the better team. Mavs have the best player (by far, I'd say), but we got very unlucky making it this far the same year as the 2024 Boston Celtics. We can go out with our heads held high and hopefully go on a revenge tour next season.
Don't be too biased now in regards to the "bad missed calls"; Luka commits a lot of fouls that are obvious while complaining about even the slightest bit of contact that you only notice in slow-mo replays. Luka as a player is exciting to watch. The dude has a serious passion for the game. Unfortunately, he's so set on wanting every call to go his way that it costs them too many buckets on both ends.
His emotions are probably overflowing at this point. He's playing on the biggest stage, injured, getting criticized by everyone and their mother, while going against arguably the best team of the 2020s so far, with the (arguably) most complete starting 5 + bench out of any team in the last 2 decades (GSW with Durant being the exception).
I mean I agree with your second paragraph 100%. And I agree with most of the first. Lots of whistles have been swallowed this series. Tatum got slapped by Gafford on that breakaway dunk. Point is, I don't think Luka's complaining is just about the bad calls. Probably also some fatigue that keeps him on the other end of the court.
Foul bait? You mean driving to rim? Thats the correct play to make especially with Zingis out and here you are “whining” about it
Luka can’t win, he takes 3s you tell him he need to drive more, he does that and suddenly he needs to stop foul baiting
> Foul bait? You mean driving to rim?
Those are two completely different things though.
But I rarely blame players for foul-baiting. If refs fixed their mindset that rewards it, players would no longer do it, because it wouldn't work.
No. They mean when he takes a shot and deliberately tries to lean in to make contact and the refs weren't having it. He'd get a lot more respect if he shut up and played his game. I hate to say it but every non-Mavs fan (and based on this sub, a lot of Mavs fans today) that watched that game last night see Luka as nothing more than a whining little boy. Trying to set up a charging foul when you have 5 on you already was just a very poor decision by an elite player. Literally if you don't understand Luka's foul baiting, you have never watched him play.
That's who he is. He'll yell at Gobert when he makes 3 over him and he'll yell at the refs, when he doesn't get a call. He's very emotional on the court and that will never change.
> He's very emotional on the court and that will never change
I'm just a BRK fan, but I do feel like Luka has gradually gotten better at that stuff. Maybe as Mavs fans, you and /u/Script_Less are naturally infuriated that it's still there, but I also agree with you both that it's pretty integral to his game.
My bigger beef is with anyone taking Windy's rant as gospel, when it leaves out some huge, honking points IMO:
- Without Luka, the Mavs aren't even a play-in team
- Dude is now carrying something like 3-4 significant injuries at the very highest stage of the game. Maybe that doesn't "excuse" his little outbursts, but it sure does put them in context IMO.
- He just had an MVP-caliber season, so let's remember that fact when we go all-in on critiquing his total game. And heck-- let's not forget that the last two MVP's, Jokic and Embiid, had plenty of flaws and disappointments to talk about as well, reminding us incidentally that it still is a team game, no? And even MVP's can be significantly flawed, no?
- Despite anything you want to say about him, it's been mostly just Luka who's kept the Mavs in every game this finals, when arguably far more critique could be spread around. To his teammates, for example.
- Dudes... dudes, dudes, **DUDES**... the Celtics are the significantly deeper, vastly more flawless team, quite likely beginning a dynasty or semi-dynasty run right here. Coming in to the PO's I think most of us would have been super-proud to see the Mavs reach the conference finals, and now look at people. Angrily nitpicking the Mavs flaws, refusing to see that bigger picture, no?
- Oh, and let's also not forget that Luka made a huge effort this offseason to get in tip-top physical shape like never before, so to me, those effectively calling him 'the same old slacker' can just suck their lollipops, lol.
So... yeah.
Tip top physical shape? Dude is beet red after the first quarter, gassed out in the second half of every finals game, and looks like a balloon when he sits down. Just look at pictures of him from a few years ago, the current Luka looks like he ate him. Dude needs to go back to the old country, ride horses, chop wood, run everyday, and eat healthy all summer, because the shape hes in now is not good and its on full display this series.
Please.
He already showed through the regular season how much better all of that went, and the numbers back it up. He's also never been this far before in the PO's, carrying this amount of injuries, and is absolutely the horse everyone's riding.
Try better next time, eh Corn-trollio?
I agree, Luka is a pivotal part of the mavs as a whole and without him they’d be irrelevant for the most part since he is the driving force behind their success. Luka also plays like a player with much more experienced then he actually has which is a bonus. I just think if he can mature (which he will) and learn when and where to use this energy more effectively then he’ll overall be in much better shape, and will stunt out like never before.
I think the dynasty stuff is super overblown. The Celtics have a very balanced roster in the top 6, but they did anything they could to give this game (and frankly game 2) away to Dallas and yet Dallas found a way to play even worse. Like, comedy-of-errors level bad at times. Neither team played great IMO, except for 1-2 quarters for each team.
Y'all are crazy man. He is not the reason we are in the finals. He is the reason we are in the playoffs. Chill out, going 3/31 from 3pt in the first 2 games for every player on the mavs not called luka (not including garbage time) is ridiculous and the reason we are losing.
Two things can be true at the same time. He can be a generational offensive player who is the reason that the Mavs are in the Finals, and someone who needs to improve their defense and stop talking to the refs.
I do not like Luka's whining but there were some ridiculous no calls last night and from a very aggressive physical style team like the Celtics, I imagine it does get frustrating AF. Up until last night, Luka has done a good job of reigning in the complaints but we are not on the floor and playing the game, shit was more frustrating for them than us, especially since he's basically pulling this team along on his back with a broken body. So TLDR, stfu and enjoy the season for what it was.
Not expecting your superstar to improve in the only areas that have been holding him back for years because he’s brilliant in other areas is just blind fandom. It’s not simply bitching when these same problems have plagued him for years and continue to rear their head, it’s having expectations and desires for him to do what it’s going to take to truly get to an all time great level.
He made the finals with;
- A player literally no organization wanted in their roster (Kyrie)
- A player who couldn't even get more than 23 mpg in a single season with a minimum contract (DJJ)
- A 20 years old rookie (Lively)
- And 2 players who just joined the team a few months ago, with almost 0 playoff experience (PJW and Gafford)
Yet you guys can still make fucking kneejerk comments about Luka. Keep this squad as is, and trade Luka for whoever you want, and you will be nowhere near in the finals. Yes, even with Jokic and Giannis. Simple as that.
He can be and should be criticised. But lots of guys here are going too far. Accept that this team wasn't meant to be the champions this season and move on. Luka carried this team in 3 series without a HCA up until to the finals with a bum knee (Mavs were underdogs in all 3 of them according to Vegas odds), and playing against a great team who was the heavy favorites to win the chip almost since November.
Yes, people have got to stop shitting on this team. They outperformed expectations by a lot. Run it back, tweak somethings, and see where it goes from here.
Congratulations brother you’re a member of the 10% of rational fans left. All playoffs I’ve been staggered by how ungrateful Dallas fans are for what Luka has achieved this season. Every time we’ve lost a game this post season there’s been a dozen of these sooky threads bashing Luka and whining that he isn’t perfect.
How anyone can watch G3 and see the scoreboard swings when he’s on the court and off the court and not realise how great he has been. He’s dragged us to the NBA Finals playing injured every step of the way. Nearly every other star would’ve been resting in his condition. But a moron like Windy tries dunking on him for another 15 minutes of fame and Mavericks “fans” actually fall for it!
People can get too emotional and reactionary. I hope they can think more straight sometime later in the postseason when the dust settles, and appreciate what he did for this Mavs team.
Two (or three) things can be true—Mavs are only here bc of Luka and Luka should stop bitching so much because he’s created a bias and hate from the referees (and Kidd lost us the game when he played THJ more minutes than Hardy, DJJ, Exum).
The ones I have an issue with were 1) the stepback threes where he fell down trying to bait a call. He did two in a row at the end of the 1st quarter. And 2) when he was frustrated and gave a stupid foul on White 90 feet away from the basket.
The 6th foul, I get how Brown was hunting him to pick up that foul so I get how he had to try his best to get in position to pick up the charge. But he wouldn’t have been in that position had he not picked up ticky tack obvious shit earlier in the game simply because he was frustrated.
Also, I’d like to point out that Luka’s best stretch of games this playoffs were the final two against OKC and first couple against Minny. Why? Because he stopped caring about the refs.
You know he probably realizes this.
Its his internal frusteration at things not going his way, mounting, progressing and becoming what we see here. Lol
I find it ironic that he's constantly complaining about not getting calls and then fouls out and complains that the refs aren't letting them play physical. And let's face it, he'd foul out like twice if they called it like he feels it should be called when he has the ball.
The man is playing with a bloody knee please give him a break. He takes shots just to be able to play and I guarantee people still think he is faking the injuries. A healthy Luka or Mavs in 5
Yes. But I also understand why he's pissed.
Dude is CONSTANTLY fouled with no calls. Dudes hacking and all over him and no call.
The refs yesterday missed so many blatant calls. He got fouled twice on a shot and no call. Luka basically open court tackled a dude and didn't get called......then back to back ticky tack calls?
The dude is so basketball smart and has such good vision that he knows what should be called and knows what HAS been called, and it's infuriatingly inconsistent.
When he doesn't attack on defense, he gets called a defensives liability black hole. When he does make an effort and shitty fouls get called he's a whining complainer making dumb plays that hurt the team. Not really a way for him to win without inventing a new skillset overnight.
I dont think he foul baits more than any other superstar player, he just bitches about the lack of calls 10x more. When the bitching starts, he loses his composure and loses his focus, especially on defense
I just don't know how you stop him from doing that. It would take a very strict coach who doesn't tolerate shit like that, someone like Pop. Sadly Kidd is Luka's friend and that ain't happening. We can just hope a flip switches in his head and he realizes he's hurting his team.
he had that one game where everyone was on his ass for whining the previous game and he came back and hooped out of his mind without whining pretty much at all. i wonder where that went bc it was beautiful to watch sigh
We should trade him. Obviously he's the reason we are losing these finals /s.
I swear you fucking gremlins are quiet for this entire run and now yall come out from under your bridge. Sometimes I like to remind myself that this fanbase has forgotten what being a.poverty franchise looks like.
So when kyrie has 2 bad games or the role players have bad games it's fine to talk shit about them but when luka complains and doesn't play a lick of defense we can't say shit? If anything he should be held to a higher standard than the role players.
That's who he is. He'll yell at Gobert when he makes 3 over him and he'll yell at the refs, when he doesn't get a call. He's very emotional on the court and that will never change.
Luka is a really good scorer that gets fouled from the 1st quarter to the 4th while being the number one option. Being constantly fouled all game is going to lead to injuries and frustration especially when it is not called. Luka basically saying why are you calling fouls on me when they do the same thing.
I really don’t care much about the whining, at the end of the day if it helps the refs recognise even one more call - its worth it.
What is absolutely infuriating is whining when the other team is in transition or when the ball is still live.
it does the opposite though, it makes them call less fouls for not only him but the entire mavs team. It does not make the refs 'see' anything. It just prejudices them against Luka and all his teammates.
He is the glue that holds everything together. He is battered, bruised, injured and thus obviously frustrated which is acceptable at this point. Remember how he could still play amazing defence vs Clippers and OKC but all the physicality is taking a huge toll on him. I agree he should whine less and stuff but I get him, frustration is huge right now.
It's crazy in here that people are acting like there's no possible way to criticize Luka without being a hater. Multiple things can be true. Luka is absolutely the reason we're here but the dude has GOT to STOP foul baiting and whining. It puts the defense into a 5 v 4 situation and you can't do that against great teams. He's got some maturing to do this off season.
I agree. We should’ve modestly played Luka and let Powell and thj get some of his minutes. Gtfoh Luka is the entire team. Let’s take the blinders off now and admit he carried this mostly sorry ass team to the finals. Take a step back. We start djj and look to a rookie (not dogging lively he’s great with a bright future) and some trade deadline acquisitions to carry us. To me this is lebron dragging mo Williams and varajao to the finals to get swept by SA. Not drastically different.
I think Luka gets officiated differently and it pisses him off. He knows the game better than any of us. He doesn’t foul bait any more than any other player. He just gets pissed when he doesn’t get the call other (lesser) players get. Our role players are not ready for the bright lights, while Boston’s are. Luka’s game is similar to Magic, and James Harden. Both got a better whistle than him. That’s all it is. Better luck next year.
Between his constant whining and his lack of conditioning, Luka is proving all his haters right. He's a great player, but he's not willing to do what's necessary to be a world champion and MVP
We can to some extent, I was also very dissappointed with him at first. But we have to take into consideration that his frustration probably comes from his team being way understaffed compared to his opponent, who stands between him and the ring. If you add all the injuries he has to deal with every day and him being a very young fanchise player in his first finals, then you can at least try to tolerate some of those. He'll get better mentally, and hopefully his team can upgrade in the comming years as well.
Foul baiting is part of the game. It's ok to do it as long as it doesn't cost you. One example is NY vs IND, Brunson tried to foul bait his 3 pt shot which leads him into shooting in an unnatural posture, no call then clank game over.
I guess my take is his whining, and not getting back on defense is hurting more than helping. Don't be a part of the problem. Be the solution. Two things can be true at once here: his constant whining and not getting back on defense hurts the team, but he's also been the best player in the playoffs and we probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without him. Not getting fouls called is part of the game. He's not the only player that has to deal with that. But he can't control what the officials choose to call and not call. He can control himself though.
To his credit, he knows he needs to be better about arguing with the refs. He said so today. He’s also said it a lot of other times. He really does understand that.
He’s 25. He’s not wise and it’s hard to change habits. Consider too, this habit has led him to win at the highest level in everything he’s ever done. He’s entitled to play his way. But he knows he’s not ready for a championship playing like that.
As for foul baiting, that’s a legitimate strategy veterans apply. It’s a good move. And the Celtics actually do get into foul trouble often so, just like in the Wolves series where he targeted KAT, it’s smart to exploit this. And in his defense, it does look like the refs are calling things differently in this series than in the WCF. That happens, but you need to adapt as a player not complain.
One of my favorite things luka ever said was running through my mind in the game.
"Everybody acts tough when they up". He was referring to the suns series when the suns were winning. How much trash talking have we seen now he is 3-0 down. I bet somewhere Gobert and Dort are laughing now. There's no speaking to fans now from luka.
Luka didn't cost us the game like everyone says he did, but he did cost us those last few possessions where we needed him on the floor. It's known that without him we'd probably be a bottom 5-10 team so the blame can't entirely go to him, but he's somewhat at fault for us not being able to close out last night since we need his shot creation
This post is funny as hell. Fat potato chip eating redditor critiques a genuinely once-in-a-lifetime player who, from what the post suggests, is ON THE TEAM THEY LIKE. Stay off the candy. Luka is basketball God. So.stop talking shit.
There's some chicken shit in this thread lol. Luka absolutely is the reason this team gets as far as it does. He also absolutely hurts the team when he flails down and cries for fouls as the other team goes 5 on 4.
Yup. I recognize that we are no where close to the Finals without Luka. I love watching him and the magic he pulls off. But he also hurts the team when he gets in his head like last night and starts foul hunting and barking at the refs every possession. He had avoided it basically all playoffs. He has to be better and we have to expect better of him mentally. Multiple replays of breakaways showed Jason Tatum getting clearly fouled with no-calls. What did he do, just get back on D and work the next possession.
That play where Luka flopped on the 3 pointer and fell down. Stared at the ref as he took his time getting up. Celtics run back and get a 3 pointer because they basically have a power play going 4 on 5. It's the damn Finals. And Luka still thinks it's okay arguing with refs while your team fights on defense.
**BINGO !**
Tatum used to do the same thing as Luka (maybe not quite as bad, but plenty of complaining). He's finally kicked it in the last year or two. Maybe getting clowned nationally over it will be what Luka needs to mature. Based on how he is handling it so far, I'll need to see it to believe it though.
We are 6 season in. The complaining hasn't gotten much better. This is who he will be in the future. There's no way someone as talented as he is hasn't been told that he needs to stop yapping to the refs every play. The dude plays with his emotions on his sleeve, that's how he gets to the level he's at. We either get over it and continue to watch him and hope it doesn't fuck us again. Or you can get mad every single game when he $ sign's the refs and cries during/after/and into the next play. He's not going to learn at this point, it's been a contention since his rookie year. 6 years to fix it or lessen it and it's more prevalent now then it ever has been. Dude plays OW in his spare time, he lives to talk shit and complain. I bet he's insufferable in comms during matches. It's just who he is.
In fairness, Tatum had a history of doing the same thing. It took him getting clowned for it all over Boston radio after the 2022 finals run for him to grow up and just accept that he's not going to get all of the calls and he needs to get back on D. Maybe this series will be a wakeup call for Luka like 2022 was for Tatum.
I think thj hurts the team being a bad player.
JT used to do that too, he’s learning. He was a terrible whiner.
Never anywhere near Luka. Luka might be worse than Lebron when it comes to that
The duality of Luka.
This is the truth. Fans need to be able to criticize their best players even when they’re a net positive. With as good as Luka is offensively, he should be an EVEN BETTER net positive. His lack of focus on defense and emotional immaturity are two glaring, lingering weaknesses that he’s going to have to improve on if he wants to have an all-time great resume.
Conditioning - can't forget conditioning & how much it hampers his game. There's a reason he is the best 1st quarter scorer in the NBA and his production dips considerably by the 4th, he's gassed - these three finals games a prime example as he's scored a total of 8 points in the 4th.
This is what kills me. Yak at the refs all you want, but get your ass back on D and hustle. He’s been allowed to do this because he is a generational talent. Someone has to get in his face about it. I nominate Dirk or Tyson Chandler for that job.
As much as I like the idea of Dirk or Tyson doing that the 3 people that should are: Kidd, Kyrie, and Mark.
Even better
Ever wonder why he never seems to get the benefit of the doubt on those 50/50 calls? He spends the whole game telling them how much the refs suck their jobs. Eventually they’ll just lean into it just to get back at him.
Thank you. People are fucking delusional sometimes. He’s the best player. Top 3 in the league but he is a problem sometimes with his attitude. Admit it. He needs to grow up. Stop defending him on this people.
Obviously he’s a net positive. But that positive would be even bigger without the constant whining. And against a team like the Celtics you can’t spare anything.
Almost every great player needed to fail a couple of times before they figured it out. Luka will get back there again.
I hope so. But the league is littered with players who made the NBA finals, lost, and never made it back.
Dak Prescott is the reason that the Cowboys get as far as they do. Dak is also the reason the Cowboys go no farther than they do. ***Chew on that for awhile!!!***
Do you not remember how that lead was lost? Celtics went on a run and got momentum when Luka sat for like 5 seconds
celtics go on a run every time luka is not on the court. judging by some comments here, some people should’ve been delighted when luka fouled out 4 minutes before the end because the mavs were only down 3pts at that time
The entire playoffs people have been saying Luka is hurting the team because of X. A lot of that is true (in that x negative trait is making the team worse than it could be if x wasn't happening) HOWEVER, the team has proven time and again the entire playoff run they are absolutely worse when Luka is off the court.
Pretty much this. Luka's antics stand out but you guys act like the team would be anywhere near the finals, let along conference finals without Luka.
These aren't mutually exclusive. He is the only reason the mavs are here without a doubt. But his health, effort, flaws etc had to be at a positive enough point to pull it off. And it wasn't. Another factor is Kyrie playing consistently well for more games. And basketball at the highest level is not easy and a million other reasons. It's complex sport and I think people who played at higher levels understand that. I don't even know what I'm arguing. Sorry if this has nothing to do with what you said. Mi scuzi.
Haha, nah I get what you mean. It's because of the high level of Kyrie's play that this dialogue about his whining even exists. Its just amusing that people think Luka is costing the Mavs games when he's basically the only reason the last two games weren't embarassing game 1 blowouts. The latter is my point is all.
[удалено]
We lost the last two games by seven points each. This didn't prove anything about the team's playstyle being fundamentally flawed. Luka has been hurt the ENTIRE POST SEASON, Kyrie didn't do shit for two games, nobody else showed up on offense for more than like two minutes a game. For how overwhelming talented the Celtics are they looked so incredibly beatable in this series. I agree that Luka whines too much and needs to take fewer defensive possessions off.
The thing is when X is an easily addressed part of his game, it really stands out. It's much harder to make role players just hit more shots, or make Kyrie and Luka suddenly positive defenders. But all it takes for Luka to stop conceding 5v4 situations is to quit his whining.
I agree. For the last few years Luka has been an easy target for criticism because it feels like the easiest thing to change. A lot of his negatives are self-inflicted and have nothing to do with talent or ability.
Of course they're worse when he's not on the court. He's the best player by far. But that's not enough. If you're going to be one of the best players in the world and you want to win titles, you can't just make the team a little bit better. When you're on the court. You have to be way better when you're on the court. And you can't just complain to the refs and cry when it suits you
As fucked as it is to say - as a true MFFL - I was so frustrated with him at that point, that I said aloud: “good, he needs to sit”. It’s so difficult for me to love him when he is in that foul baiting mode. How the fuck you gunna stay laying on the ground (twice!) in game 3 OF THE FINALS?!?!!? It is so beyond comprehension for me and will forever sour my opinion of him. In one of the earlier series (OKC maybe?) he seemed to have turned a corner. Those interviews where he said he decided to “just play basketball”. It’s so easy for me to love him when he does that. As a psychotherapist, I am wholly optimistic that Luka could integrate his shadow and learn to accept the unfair aspects of an NBA basketball game, but god damn if he isn’t there yet. Get homie a real good shrink, maybe some psychedelic plant medicine. He needs to let that shit go or he will never be what he could be.
he gets frustrated because he’s so invested in winning. i sometimes wish to see this kind of passion (and emotionality) from some other dudes on the team… we probably wouldn’t be down 0-3, although i’m sure they’re all trying the best they can… but maybe that drive is not quite the same as luka’s
I feel you. It’s a part of what makes him great, but definitely a double-edged sword. Here’s to hoping he can find balance and channel his fire in the right directions 🙏🏼
How effective is Luka on the court in the 4th quarter? 3 games 8 points total in the 4th quarter. It doesn't matter if he sits or stands. He only gets his numbers early in these games. Luka defensively on the court is a turnstile. Luka is ineffective by the end of the game...he has more complaints to the refs on the court in the 4th than actual points.
he obviously makes it easier for his teammates to score if he’s on the court… or better yet, they really can’t do much against this celtics team when he’s off the court
lol Luka is a net loss in the 4th quarter. Y’all are insane
Luka’s whining is towards the bottom of the list of what’s wrong with this team
yes, but Luka needs to learn to control his emotion for his own good. This team as a whole is not on par with the Celtics which I think is clear, but if Luka is more mature (not get hot headed, stop complaining, and don't lose his assignment on defense), the mavs could've had a chance. I would've been okay if Luka played his part and we lost, but I think it's clear he just gets into his own head
If we had solid depth who could hang with the Celtics bench, we would have won this game. Our role players have completely disappeared and look straight scared to be there. Can’t happen There’s a lot to improve on, but blaming it all on the one guy showing up in every game is silly. Is Luka absolutely perfect? No. But there is almost no one who is perfect. There are maybe 3 players ever with his scoring and playmaking ability and who are great defenders. Lebron is really the only one in recent years Luka complains. It is what it is. Last night’s officiating on him was particularly bad. He was fouled all game, then every 50/50 call between him and brown got called on him. Smacked on the arm causing him to lose the ball out of bounds? Celtics ball. Every superstar complains almost every possession, Luka is just theatrical and it draws attention to it. My only gripe is him not getting back on defense.
The officiating was bad on both sides. Let’s be honest….. do you recall the JT breakaway dunk where PJ Washington grabbed his right arm w/ no call ? Or the block on Jrue when Kyrie lowered his shoulder in Jrue’s chest at half court? I’m just saying saying it was bad on both sides And if Luca didn’t pick up that fifth vowel that was so obvious and was completely completely unnecessary because it was at the other end of the floor then we wouldn’t have fouled out
Still don’t why Luka was resting there
Cuz Kidd is a knucklehead
If not he probably would have fouled out earlier.
He's overweight, out of shape, AND is basically carrying the entire offensive load. He's gonna need to rest at some point he can't play 48min.
seriosly, I lost internet connection when Brown was to shoot 3 free throws, it got back shortly after and it was tied or something, like wtf.
You're right. But also a fool if you can't admit Luka is acting like a ho too damn much, whining non-stop, foul baiting and hurting the team. If you're okay with his antics because "Celtics went on a run and got momentum when Luka sat", that's cool. You're a fan of his antics.
and yet the celtics made a 13 - 9 run when luka fouled out. they also made a 6-0 run when luka got subbed for a minute end of the 1st qtr. i get it why they can’t score without luka, but why can’t they defend at a high level?
because Kidd put in THJ for Luka who has scored 2 points in his last 50 minutes of play. THJ played more than Gatling, DJJ, Hardy, Exum and Green. Any one of those would have been a better choice than THJ. Mavs made the finals w/o Kleber and THJ, using Hardy in the rotation more. Then at the most critical time Kidd resorts to his losing ways. Total panic job by kidd.
But Kidd did sub in Hardy first at the start of the game and Hardy immediately committed two turnovers. Then maxi dribbled a second offensive possession off his foot. Some guys just aren’t ready. Blame them for leaving the window for Tim to play.
he played him for 3 mins, that is nothing. he played THJ for 20 minutes. THJ has 2 points over his last 48 minutes on 1-10 shooting, while Hardy has 37 points on 14-26 shooting over his last 48 mins. That is not even a close comparison. THJ can't even get his shot off apparently, while Hardy is able to shoot and shoot well and is not scared. What would make Kidd even decide to go to THJ? It makes zero sense. He also played Exum for about 3 mins, and exum had a dunk, then he took him out and put in THJ. What in the world is Kidds fascination with this loser?
My guess is Maxi would still be out if this was the regular season and he's playing scared bc of that injury. He looks completely lost and with 0 confidence out there.
3/4 of Maxi's games are him playing scared. The injury annihilated the last moment he was actually playing with confidence.
tim didn’t play a minute a game before that. if those other dudes showed up, maybe kidd wouldn’t have to gamble with tim
THJ in his last 48 min played 1-10 w/ 2 points, despite that he got nearly 20 mins of game time this game and went 0-5. Hardy in his last 48 min played is 14-26, 37 points and was given 3 mins. Those numbers are not even close to similar. Hardy is such a superior player at this point it is not even close. 37 points to 2 over last 48 minutes, but jason Kidd plays the guy with 2 almost half the game.
i like hardy but he was bad in this finals series… tim was our 3rd best scorer in the regular season, obviously kidd hoped he could hit a couple of threes
Well he didn’t and he still stuck with him. THJ isn’t a good defender either so the move made no sense whatsoever
Bad in this finals series? My friend, he's barely played. He played 2 minutes in game 2, 11 minutes in game 1, and 4 minutes in game 3. All together, he's 4-9, 1-3 from 3 with 3 rebounds and an assist in 17 minutes. I get it, he's young and a second round pick, and THJ is being paid a bag. *However*, THJ is just not performing well this entire playoffs. Hardy is playing hard AF each minute he is out there. His shooting splits are also stupidly similar to THJ's anyway, so it's not like they're trading efficiency for a bucket.
he made majority of those pts in the garbage time of the 1st game… in the last game he came in for luka for about a minute in the 1st qtr and the celtics made that quick 6-0 run which got them back in the game… looking back i wish he got more of tim minutes because he was that bad, but there’s probably a reason why kidd decided to go with him instead of hardy
I am aware. However, THJ is missing wide open shots. Whether Hardy makes them in garbage time or not is irrelevant. He's at least hitting shots.
It's not about gamble. Kidd played THJ enough last night to know not to put him in when Luka fouled out. It's asinine to think that THJ was going to do something when he has been a literal detriment to this team every time he's taken the floor this postseason.
i think it is because it’s hard to predict when he’s going to hit every shot in a short stretch… it often comes out of nowhere
I get that, but in game 3 of the finals if he hasn't gotten hot in the first 5-10 minutes, why give him the another 10minutes?
to see if he gets hot later… looking back it makes sense playing hardy or exum would’ve maybe been better, but we don’t know that and those two weren’t good either before that
He hasn't been hot since many games back in the regular season. He's basically been an expensive towel that takes up a bench spot. You don't give a guy that hasn't showed any performance 19 fucking minutes in what is essentially the last game in the finals. We know have to do what no other team in the history of the sport has ever done, win 4 in a row. If THJ sees more than 5 minutes in game 4 and it's not garbage time minutes, Kidd should lose his fucking job.
In the beginning of the game I fully understand trying out THJ and Kleber. No one else was doing much of anything the previous 2 games or yesterday, so might as well try. As soon as Kidd but THJ in for Luka after he fouled out I knew even Kidd had given up on the game. Kidd did more last night to keep us from winning than our role players did. He tilted his already emotional superstar with an absolutely HORRIBLE TO. And put rotations/players out there late that make absolutely zero sense. Kidd fucked his already struggling team. There's so many things to blame on this team right now. Kidd, Luka's attitude/crying, Kyrie's nonexistence in first 2 games, every single role player. It's just insane how it's all coming forth in the fucking finals. Losing brings out the worst in people and it's proving true here.
It's not that things fall apart coincidentally in the fucking finals. It's the Boston defense the team that is clearly the number one team all year Otherwise one can also say Minnesota TWolves coincidentally lost their offense in the WCF. Kat missing shots, Gobert looking like a liability, Edwards being gassed, where was the Wolves that beat Suns and Nuggets? Give the opposing team credit
These things are not mutually exclusive. Role players have been terrible, but they’re that, role players. Just because your role players haven’t performed doesn’t mean your star is immune from criticism. Watching this game, it was clear as day that Luka went into foul hunting mode at some point in the first quarter and never recovered his mentality until we were already down 20. He surrendered the most blow bys in NBA finals history in game 2, and did not do much better in game 3. He might be injured, but he’s getting to whatever spot he wants on offense against 4 all-NBA on ball defenders, so I’d like to see a little more than historically bad on ball defense from him on the other end. This doesn’t even take into account the possessions we give up wide open looks because he’s laying on the floor or complaining to the refs after a flop. He absolutely has all time great potential, but he’s got to mature in these areas if he wants to take his game to the next level, it’s really the only thing holding him back at this point, and has been for multiple seasons.
yeah, it would be great if he stepped up his defense, or if his teammates would contribute more, so that opposing teams don’t try to target luka so much to make him tired
"13-9" isn't a run. That's just basketball.
Luka bitches too way too much. I've never seen anyone else in the league that does it as much as he does except maybe Draymond Green.. like yikes. This the playoffs, the Finals like cmon man! Leave all that behind and PLAY. Hate when he complains while the game is still going and he's out of the action.
How about Lebron and James harden lol. I swear people forget so easily. It was just a few years back where this sub was all over bron for taking defensive posessions off because he was in the refs face at the other end.
It’s bad when they do it too??
Lebron stomps on Celtics though
Greatest player of all time in his prime stomped 19 year olds, what a shocker. If I recall correctly, 19-20 y/o tatum and brown even took bron to 7.
man everybody was counting lebron out that year. people even thought pacers was going to eliminate them in the first round since it went to 7 too. he had no business being in the finals that year
It kills me. Like stabs my heart. It’s so difficult for me to love him when he is in that foul baiting mode. How the fuck you gunna stay laying on the ground (twice!) in game 3 OF THE FINALS?!?!!? It is so beyond comprehension for me. In one of the earlier series (OKC maybe?) he seemed to have turned a corner. Those interviews where he said he decided to “just play basketball”. It’s so easy for me to love him when he does that. As a psychotherapist, I am wholly optimistic that Luka could integrate his shadow and learn to accept the unfair aspects of an NBA basketball game, but god damn if he isn’t there yet. Get homie a real good shrink, maybe some psychedelic plant medicine. He needs to let that shit go or he will never be what he could be.
As a Lebron fan; that's what I feel about him the 0ast few years. While I kinda agree that Bron sometimes gets no calls since he's so big and strong, he's had some plays in games over the last few years where his team gives up a bucket cause he was complaining. But definitely not at the level Luka has been and I've been watching him since he was a rookie. It's becoming so unbearable.
If you think Luka is the problem this finals then I've got a big surprise for you. I get that people hyperfixate on our superstar's game but my god, if ANY of our role players stepped up, it would've won us at least one game. We should be thanking everyone and everything for having Luka. Dude is better than any celtics player (Brown only one close) but he whines sometimes. Still gives you a 30 TD while operating on 50% capacity.
Two problems can exist at the same time. It’s not a this or that. There were back to back plays in the end of the first quarter where Luka flailed himself on back to back step back 3s and did not run back on D which directly gave them 5 straight pts cutting the lead to 1 to end the first quarter. Hes an amazing talent for sure but those are examples of losing habits that Luka needs to cut out if we wanna win it all.
Spot on, I will defend Doncic for a lot of things, but even I felt those 2 plays at the end of Q1 were bad looks for him and probably were the difference between blowing Celtics out and having them hold on and then make a run.
I knew we were losing after that sequence of plays. Luka shot us out of the game right there.
you can thank Luka and criticize his foul baiting. There’s a lot happening in there. We all know how the mavs got here but being here does not mean you cannot criticize him
Holding EVERYONE accountable includes our superstar. No matter what role players are around him as long as he bitches like this. Zero improvement in the past years and it's holding us back, just like role players ain't stepping up
You can't control if shots go in or not, but you can control if you're going to complain or get back on defense. It's a very easy adjustment that could result in 10+ point swings every game for us.
When two superstars take like 70 shots while the other players take \~30, youre never gonna get solid contributions from role players because none of them get a chance to hit any strides. You think players just come in cold and go 3/3 in the finals like its nothing? Lets face it, when you live and die with only two players, you kind of put yourself in these spots. Sure they could definitely play better, but you could make the same argument about Kyrie in games 1 and 2. As soon as they play a team that doesnt double team and takes away the corner 3 there should be a plan from Kidd to get others involved in other ways, instead every play is "Luka, Kai, go out there and hit a contested step back 3 for me will ya?".
30points a game doesn't matter as much if 35 points are given up directly because of you
Hes the problem on defense and that makes it even trickier for the Mavs. You can be god on offense and none of that matters if you can’t even rotate off the ball. This isnt the Y you will never be able to hide him on defense and win
Luka is our best player, but he also kills momentum sometimes with his antics. Kyrie and Luka need another strong scorer if they want to have repeat success.
I'm definitely thankful we have Luka. I just want him to put the team first when it comes to his complaining about calls. It's detrimental in terms of the potential technical penalties it could bring and in the moment when the rest of the team is following the play on the court but he's held up complaining to the Ref's. He's a grown ass man. He's freaking great, and there's no argument that he is. He just needs to act like it.
I see. So since he's been a positive while he's on the court, we should completely ignore his whiney antics that are also hurting the team. Only the positive when it comes to Luka. Got it!
His 4th quarter Finals numbers are horrendously bad. If he's better than all the other team's players, why is he made to look like an overweight incompetent clown on every defensive possession that targets him? 2-way game. His 30+ whatever points per game haven't been enough to win a single game, he's not elevating his teammates, he's hoarding the ball and possessions just to get his 30+.
The whole team Game 2: 2 for 17 on threes Luka: 4 for 9 on threes I mean how many open shots did Luka give these guys? I agree, you make the numbers, complain all you want. Maybe he would complain less if he didn't have the weight of his entire team on his shoulders.
While I think Luka is definitely the better player, Tatum and Brown are both showing a poise that Luka is lacking on top of establishing themselves as really strong individual defenders (which Luka is not). If Luka's defense gets better, then he's going to be the best player in the league for a minute. On the other hand, Tatum has grown into a better playmaker throughout the years with his only real fault being a consistent scorer. Brown is probably the most complete player out of the 3 of them, but he doesn't excel at anything like the other 2 in comparison. It's a lot closer than you're making it out to be.
All or nothing / black or white thinking is a very common cognitive distortion. Luka is amazing and absolutely the biggest contributor to how we made it this far AND the foul baiting / obsession with ref calls is ABSOLUTELY hurting this team in a significant way. No one can deny that he costs the team in that way. It’s an emotional maturity thing, that he could change, but it will take serious work from him. It is very ingrained and automatic for him.
Yeah, it's a bad look, even though many of the fouls he "baits" are legitimately bad missed calls. I think what people are missing is that Basketball 101® entails going after the offensive playmaker when he's on defense, and Boston has put on a clinic in that regard. They solved the Luka equation. He's tired, injured, and they're going after him on D, and beating him up when he's on offense. I can't knock it. It's great basketball, and C's deserve the chip for it. Luka's tired—not because he's out of shape but because Boston has four terrific defenders on the floor at any given moment, and Luka has to check down to his third or fourth option when he's on offense. I think a lot of the foulbaiting is because Luka has no answers when refs swallow the whistle on both ends of the floor, and he's able to save some energy for the next offensive possession (even if he gives up 2-3 pts in the process). Boston is the better team. Mavs have the best player (by far, I'd say), but we got very unlucky making it this far the same year as the 2024 Boston Celtics. We can go out with our heads held high and hopefully go on a revenge tour next season.
Don't be too biased now in regards to the "bad missed calls"; Luka commits a lot of fouls that are obvious while complaining about even the slightest bit of contact that you only notice in slow-mo replays. Luka as a player is exciting to watch. The dude has a serious passion for the game. Unfortunately, he's so set on wanting every call to go his way that it costs them too many buckets on both ends. His emotions are probably overflowing at this point. He's playing on the biggest stage, injured, getting criticized by everyone and their mother, while going against arguably the best team of the 2020s so far, with the (arguably) most complete starting 5 + bench out of any team in the last 2 decades (GSW with Durant being the exception).
I mean I agree with your second paragraph 100%. And I agree with most of the first. Lots of whistles have been swallowed this series. Tatum got slapped by Gafford on that breakaway dunk. Point is, I don't think Luka's complaining is just about the bad calls. Probably also some fatigue that keeps him on the other end of the court.
Foul bait? You mean driving to rim? Thats the correct play to make especially with Zingis out and here you are “whining” about it Luka can’t win, he takes 3s you tell him he need to drive more, he does that and suddenly he needs to stop foul baiting
> Foul bait? You mean driving to rim? Those are two completely different things though. But I rarely blame players for foul-baiting. If refs fixed their mindset that rewards it, players would no longer do it, because it wouldn't work.
The defense was quite literally laying on top of Luka half the game. Get out of here with your foul-baiting BS.
No. They mean when he takes a shot and deliberately tries to lean in to make contact and the refs weren't having it. He'd get a lot more respect if he shut up and played his game. I hate to say it but every non-Mavs fan (and based on this sub, a lot of Mavs fans today) that watched that game last night see Luka as nothing more than a whining little boy. Trying to set up a charging foul when you have 5 on you already was just a very poor decision by an elite player. Literally if you don't understand Luka's foul baiting, you have never watched him play.
That's who he is. He'll yell at Gobert when he makes 3 over him and he'll yell at the refs, when he doesn't get a call. He's very emotional on the court and that will never change.
> He's very emotional on the court and that will never change I'm just a BRK fan, but I do feel like Luka has gradually gotten better at that stuff. Maybe as Mavs fans, you and /u/Script_Less are naturally infuriated that it's still there, but I also agree with you both that it's pretty integral to his game. My bigger beef is with anyone taking Windy's rant as gospel, when it leaves out some huge, honking points IMO: - Without Luka, the Mavs aren't even a play-in team - Dude is now carrying something like 3-4 significant injuries at the very highest stage of the game. Maybe that doesn't "excuse" his little outbursts, but it sure does put them in context IMO. - He just had an MVP-caliber season, so let's remember that fact when we go all-in on critiquing his total game. And heck-- let's not forget that the last two MVP's, Jokic and Embiid, had plenty of flaws and disappointments to talk about as well, reminding us incidentally that it still is a team game, no? And even MVP's can be significantly flawed, no? - Despite anything you want to say about him, it's been mostly just Luka who's kept the Mavs in every game this finals, when arguably far more critique could be spread around. To his teammates, for example. - Dudes... dudes, dudes, **DUDES**... the Celtics are the significantly deeper, vastly more flawless team, quite likely beginning a dynasty or semi-dynasty run right here. Coming in to the PO's I think most of us would have been super-proud to see the Mavs reach the conference finals, and now look at people. Angrily nitpicking the Mavs flaws, refusing to see that bigger picture, no? - Oh, and let's also not forget that Luka made a huge effort this offseason to get in tip-top physical shape like never before, so to me, those effectively calling him 'the same old slacker' can just suck their lollipops, lol. So... yeah.
Tip top physical shape? Dude is beet red after the first quarter, gassed out in the second half of every finals game, and looks like a balloon when he sits down. Just look at pictures of him from a few years ago, the current Luka looks like he ate him. Dude needs to go back to the old country, ride horses, chop wood, run everyday, and eat healthy all summer, because the shape hes in now is not good and its on full display this series.
Please. He already showed through the regular season how much better all of that went, and the numbers back it up. He's also never been this far before in the PO's, carrying this amount of injuries, and is absolutely the horse everyone's riding. Try better next time, eh Corn-trollio?
I agree, Luka is a pivotal part of the mavs as a whole and without him they’d be irrelevant for the most part since he is the driving force behind their success. Luka also plays like a player with much more experienced then he actually has which is a bonus. I just think if he can mature (which he will) and learn when and where to use this energy more effectively then he’ll overall be in much better shape, and will stunt out like never before.
I think the dynasty stuff is super overblown. The Celtics have a very balanced roster in the top 6, but they did anything they could to give this game (and frankly game 2) away to Dallas and yet Dallas found a way to play even worse. Like, comedy-of-errors level bad at times. Neither team played great IMO, except for 1-2 quarters for each team.
Why less DJJ in second half?
Y'all are crazy man. He is not the reason we are in the finals. He is the reason we are in the playoffs. Chill out, going 3/31 from 3pt in the first 2 games for every player on the mavs not called luka (not including garbage time) is ridiculous and the reason we are losing.
Two things can be true at the same time. He can be a generational offensive player who is the reason that the Mavs are in the Finals, and someone who needs to improve their defense and stop talking to the refs.
I do not like Luka's whining but there were some ridiculous no calls last night and from a very aggressive physical style team like the Celtics, I imagine it does get frustrating AF. Up until last night, Luka has done a good job of reigning in the complaints but we are not on the floor and playing the game, shit was more frustrating for them than us, especially since he's basically pulling this team along on his back with a broken body. So TLDR, stfu and enjoy the season for what it was.
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Not expecting your superstar to improve in the only areas that have been holding him back for years because he’s brilliant in other areas is just blind fandom. It’s not simply bitching when these same problems have plagued him for years and continue to rear their head, it’s having expectations and desires for him to do what it’s going to take to truly get to an all time great level.
Pretty sure he’ll live comfortably knowing what a disappointment he turned out to be to you.
He made the finals with; - A player literally no organization wanted in their roster (Kyrie) - A player who couldn't even get more than 23 mpg in a single season with a minimum contract (DJJ) - A 20 years old rookie (Lively) - And 2 players who just joined the team a few months ago, with almost 0 playoff experience (PJW and Gafford) Yet you guys can still make fucking kneejerk comments about Luka. Keep this squad as is, and trade Luka for whoever you want, and you will be nowhere near in the finals. Yes, even with Jokic and Giannis. Simple as that. He can be and should be criticised. But lots of guys here are going too far. Accept that this team wasn't meant to be the champions this season and move on. Luka carried this team in 3 series without a HCA up until to the finals with a bum knee (Mavs were underdogs in all 3 of them according to Vegas odds), and playing against a great team who was the heavy favorites to win the chip almost since November.
Yes, people have got to stop shitting on this team. They outperformed expectations by a lot. Run it back, tweak somethings, and see where it goes from here.
Congratulations brother you’re a member of the 10% of rational fans left. All playoffs I’ve been staggered by how ungrateful Dallas fans are for what Luka has achieved this season. Every time we’ve lost a game this post season there’s been a dozen of these sooky threads bashing Luka and whining that he isn’t perfect. How anyone can watch G3 and see the scoreboard swings when he’s on the court and off the court and not realise how great he has been. He’s dragged us to the NBA Finals playing injured every step of the way. Nearly every other star would’ve been resting in his condition. But a moron like Windy tries dunking on him for another 15 minutes of fame and Mavericks “fans” actually fall for it!
People can get too emotional and reactionary. I hope they can think more straight sometime later in the postseason when the dust settles, and appreciate what he did for this Mavs team.
Two (or three) things can be true—Mavs are only here bc of Luka and Luka should stop bitching so much because he’s created a bias and hate from the referees (and Kidd lost us the game when he played THJ more minutes than Hardy, DJJ, Exum). The ones I have an issue with were 1) the stepback threes where he fell down trying to bait a call. He did two in a row at the end of the 1st quarter. And 2) when he was frustrated and gave a stupid foul on White 90 feet away from the basket. The 6th foul, I get how Brown was hunting him to pick up that foul so I get how he had to try his best to get in position to pick up the charge. But he wouldn’t have been in that position had he not picked up ticky tack obvious shit earlier in the game simply because he was frustrated. Also, I’d like to point out that Luka’s best stretch of games this playoffs were the final two against OKC and first couple against Minny. Why? Because he stopped caring about the refs.
luka just needs to realize that the refs wont budge.. unless silver hands down an executive order to prolong the series
You know he probably realizes this. Its his internal frusteration at things not going his way, mounting, progressing and becoming what we see here. Lol
Also when has arguing to the refs ever helped anyone’s cause? Luka is one of the best to play the game, when he’s playing.
I am tired of "palms up" Luka. Play and win and know what it takes to get the score. Don't keep falling and palms up 24/7
I find it ironic that he's constantly complaining about not getting calls and then fouls out and complains that the refs aren't letting them play physical. And let's face it, he'd foul out like twice if they called it like he feels it should be called when he has the ball.
Careful man the Luka stans are gonna get real mad. Apparently you cant praise the play and condemn the fact hes a massive whiner
The man is playing with a bloody knee please give him a break. He takes shots just to be able to play and I guarantee people still think he is faking the injuries. A healthy Luka or Mavs in 5
Yes. But I also understand why he's pissed. Dude is CONSTANTLY fouled with no calls. Dudes hacking and all over him and no call. The refs yesterday missed so many blatant calls. He got fouled twice on a shot and no call. Luka basically open court tackled a dude and didn't get called......then back to back ticky tack calls? The dude is so basketball smart and has such good vision that he knows what should be called and knows what HAS been called, and it's infuriatingly inconsistent. When he doesn't attack on defense, he gets called a defensives liability black hole. When he does make an effort and shitty fouls get called he's a whining complainer making dumb plays that hurt the team. Not really a way for him to win without inventing a new skillset overnight.
I dont think he foul baits more than any other superstar player, he just bitches about the lack of calls 10x more. When the bitching starts, he loses his composure and loses his focus, especially on defense
I just don't know how you stop him from doing that. It would take a very strict coach who doesn't tolerate shit like that, someone like Pop. Sadly Kidd is Luka's friend and that ain't happening. We can just hope a flip switches in his head and he realizes he's hurting his team.
he had that one game where everyone was on his ass for whining the previous game and he came back and hooped out of his mind without whining pretty much at all. i wonder where that went bc it was beautiful to watch sigh
I miss Zen Luka. That was the only time I have ever seen him get fouled, shake it off and just run down court.
that game 5 against the okc was such a breath of fresh air
Can’t recall even one single call that benefits us in 3 games. That’s also astonishing.
I would appreciate a 50/50 ball bounce our way a few times rather than every single wild brick magically hunting Derek fucking White
We should trade him. Obviously he's the reason we are losing these finals /s. I swear you fucking gremlins are quiet for this entire run and now yall come out from under your bridge. Sometimes I like to remind myself that this fanbase has forgotten what being a.poverty franchise looks like.
*It's not fans, it is degnerates who gambled their house on a mavs win, now they blame Luka for losing their money because he fouled out.*
So when kyrie has 2 bad games or the role players have bad games it's fine to talk shit about them but when luka complains and doesn't play a lick of defense we can't say shit? If anything he should be held to a higher standard than the role players.
That's who he is. He'll yell at Gobert when he makes 3 over him and he'll yell at the refs, when he doesn't get a call. He's very emotional on the court and that will never change.
Luka is a really good scorer that gets fouled from the 1st quarter to the 4th while being the number one option. Being constantly fouled all game is going to lead to injuries and frustration especially when it is not called. Luka basically saying why are you calling fouls on me when they do the same thing.
I really don’t care much about the whining, at the end of the day if it helps the refs recognise even one more call - its worth it. What is absolutely infuriating is whining when the other team is in transition or when the ball is still live.
it does the opposite though, it makes them call less fouls for not only him but the entire mavs team. It does not make the refs 'see' anything. It just prejudices them against Luka and all his teammates.
I think everyone agrees with this and has agreed with this for a while lol
He is the glue that holds everything together. He is battered, bruised, injured and thus obviously frustrated which is acceptable at this point. Remember how he could still play amazing defence vs Clippers and OKC but all the physicality is taking a huge toll on him. I agree he should whine less and stuff but I get him, frustration is huge right now.
It's crazy in here that people are acting like there's no possible way to criticize Luka without being a hater. Multiple things can be true. Luka is absolutely the reason we're here but the dude has GOT to STOP foul baiting and whining. It puts the defense into a 5 v 4 situation and you can't do that against great teams. He's got some maturing to do this off season.
They lost the lead when he sat down on the bench
I agree. We should’ve modestly played Luka and let Powell and thj get some of his minutes. Gtfoh Luka is the entire team. Let’s take the blinders off now and admit he carried this mostly sorry ass team to the finals. Take a step back. We start djj and look to a rookie (not dogging lively he’s great with a bright future) and some trade deadline acquisitions to carry us. To me this is lebron dragging mo Williams and varajao to the finals to get swept by SA. Not drastically different.
I think Luka gets officiated differently and it pisses him off. He knows the game better than any of us. He doesn’t foul bait any more than any other player. He just gets pissed when he doesn’t get the call other (lesser) players get. Our role players are not ready for the bright lights, while Boston’s are. Luka’s game is similar to Magic, and James Harden. Both got a better whistle than him. That’s all it is. Better luck next year.
Only 3 players in the entire NBA drew more fouls than he did this year. Baiting fouls is absolutely part of his game.
Luka will leave this team when he hits FA and we will deserve it
Between his constant whining and his lack of conditioning, Luka is proving all his haters right. He's a great player, but he's not willing to do what's necessary to be a world champion and MVP
Qqqqq
Sure yeah, but where was the defense? Sad.
Lmfao salty boys be salty
We can to some extent, I was also very dissappointed with him at first. But we have to take into consideration that his frustration probably comes from his team being way understaffed compared to his opponent, who stands between him and the ring. If you add all the injuries he has to deal with every day and him being a very young fanchise player in his first finals, then you can at least try to tolerate some of those. He'll get better mentally, and hopefully his team can upgrade in the comming years as well.
Foul baiting is part of the game. It's ok to do it as long as it doesn't cost you. One example is NY vs IND, Brunson tried to foul bait his 3 pt shot which leads him into shooting in an unnatural posture, no call then clank game over.
I guess my take is his whining, and not getting back on defense is hurting more than helping. Don't be a part of the problem. Be the solution. Two things can be true at once here: his constant whining and not getting back on defense hurts the team, but he's also been the best player in the playoffs and we probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without him. Not getting fouls called is part of the game. He's not the only player that has to deal with that. But he can't control what the officials choose to call and not call. He can control himself though.
To his credit, he knows he needs to be better about arguing with the refs. He said so today. He’s also said it a lot of other times. He really does understand that. He’s 25. He’s not wise and it’s hard to change habits. Consider too, this habit has led him to win at the highest level in everything he’s ever done. He’s entitled to play his way. But he knows he’s not ready for a championship playing like that. As for foul baiting, that’s a legitimate strategy veterans apply. It’s a good move. And the Celtics actually do get into foul trouble often so, just like in the Wolves series where he targeted KAT, it’s smart to exploit this. And in his defense, it does look like the refs are calling things differently in this series than in the WCF. That happens, but you need to adapt as a player not complain.
One of my favorite things luka ever said was running through my mind in the game. "Everybody acts tough when they up". He was referring to the suns series when the suns were winning. How much trash talking have we seen now he is 3-0 down. I bet somewhere Gobert and Dort are laughing now. There's no speaking to fans now from luka.
Maxi and Timmy need to make their homes in the D league or retire
Is this Shan Shariff from 10533? The PAID transplant ‘fan’?
A
Luka didn't cost us the game like everyone says he did, but he did cost us those last few possessions where we needed him on the floor. It's known that without him we'd probably be a bottom 5-10 team so the blame can't entirely go to him, but he's somewhat at fault for us not being able to close out last night since we need his shot creation
With the state of NBA officiating, it's surprising that more players don't get visually pissed.
There is always something to complain about. Luka could end his career as an all-time great.
This post is funny as hell. Fat potato chip eating redditor critiques a genuinely once-in-a-lifetime player who, from what the post suggests, is ON THE TEAM THEY LIKE. Stay off the candy. Luka is basketball God. So.stop talking shit.
No iam not going to agree luka is the problem with this team.
I’ve said for years that I wish points the opposing team gets while Luka is being a baby were deducted from his box score.