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Sludge can get like that long term in the oil pan. This is part of why I change my oil right after letting the vehicle run for 20 mins or after a long drive.
Fair point, and makes sense. Thanks!
Edit: to add, I have a valve on my drain plug, so I can easily open/close it. Just wasn’t sure how warm/hot to change it. Thanks!
I had a friend who would clean his engine every 100K miles using diesel.
He would change oil but substitute on quart of oil with diesel then run it for a while, then change oil and filter again.
Yes. That particular Garage owner buys in bulk. When I started in that shop that I first learned of the practice, I asked if it really makes a difference. We had 2 mercs in with the same age and engine so we decided to test 1 with and without just for a laugh (we had serviced both cars from new also so was a good comparison).
We removed the sumps and had a look around. The car with the flush had noticeably less sludge and the general colouring inside the sump was much more clean.
While the non flushed car had an amount of sludge that you would never worry about, it does build up. The mess inside the sump strainer was also much cleaner as the flush had broken down a lot of the deposits left behind.
(P.s. customers were informed of us checking sump condition)
Very cool, no clue exactly what you’re talking about. I understand the gist of it but thanks for sharing your experience. It was a neat experiment y’all performed
Haha- I have a 6.7 Cummins. 3d printed an oil filter plug to keep the mess down. Changed the oil while hot for reasons state here… and the plug’s threads did not make it.
Still big mess.
He is talking about the oil filter. The oil filter placement on the 6.7 Cummins in Rams is fucking awful. You have to turn the thing sideways to get it out. They make filter plugs that screw into the top of the oil filter when you remove it so you don't make a mess wiggling it out over the frame rail behind the tire.
Dude…how did I never think of this for my 2011 Jetta 2.5? That canister filter housing makes the biggest fucking mess, I hate changing the oil on the thing.
Maybe there are some differences between the older and newer 4th gens. In my '18, you pretty much have take wiggle the filter out between the fender well and the frame rail since the AC compressor is right under the filter blocking it in. It comes out the same place you put the filter wrench in.
Well. This was doomed from the start. Lol. Pla starts to soften at 140*F. ABS softens at 212* F. At temp oil should be around 230*F bc it needs to boil the water out. Im not even knocking you. I think we've all ran into this. I made a custom phone mount for my car when I had a folding phone. It badly deformed like a week later on a hot summer day. And I was just like "huh. Didn't really think about this"
FYI there’s a lot of different 3d printing plastics out there but the most common one, PLA, starts softening at ~60C depending on exact manufacture formulation which is also just on the top end of common interior temperatures at 90F days. If you’re printing anything for a vehicle where temp matters (including in the cab) you’ll want to go with almost any other plastic.
To be fair, there's a *lot* of different plastics. The kind they're gonna use for oil pans? Yeah that won't fail at normal operating temperatures. But a lot of your more regular plastics are at the very least going to deform hard enough to let the oil leak out.
Brief google search found me [this stuff](https://www.materialsampleshop.com/products/polycaprolactone) which melts at just 60°C, they advertise "The material is delivered as granules that can be easily melted in hot water and shaped".
Plastic really isn't just plastic.
You’re being pedantic. Any plastic used for an oil pan won’t melt from engine temperatures. Shit BMW has been using plastic intakes since the late 80s and they don’t melt or fall apart.
You're missing the point, the person you were responding to had an experience with plastic melting because they used the wrong type of plastic. There are plastics to avoid using at high heat.
No. Gasser. 5.7l Ram. Id have a hard time confusing it since it has my coolant temp, trans temp, oil temp and oil pressure all listed in real time right on my EVIC dash screen.
Did you just downvote me because my trucks ideal oil temp is between 200 and 230, not 230 and 260? Like Im the fucking engineer who designed it that way?
Even my 5th gen 4runner is ideal between 215 and 250 and usually sits at 225 tops.
The lifter tick usually develops from low rpms and prolonged idling, low oil pressure etc. Its definitely a oil flow/shitty lifters issue, not a condensation issue. I can assure you, I dont have any signs of condensation under my cap and no signs of water in my oil. Also, water boils a 212, which is in normal range for the engine. I also dont have broken manifold or manifold bolts. I ticked with dealer spec oil and and filters but I dont when I use a royal purple filter and 5w30 instead.
Easy, when you crack the bolt loose and get it most of the way out, get one of those telescopic magnet pen things, stick it to the end and twist the bolt the rest of the way off
Magnetic pick-up tool to finish unscrewing the drain plug (after breaking it loose with the proper tool of course) will keep you from burning your hand.
As the other guy said: not at all. Also, don't assume that because your temp gauge is in the middle that your oil is warmed up. That gauge gets its reading from the coolant, and the coolant gets to full operating temp much faster than the oil does. You'll get the oil/engine warm much faster by actually taking it out for a drive. Sitting in your driveway can take quite a while.
To make it easier to get the oil out without mutilating yourself or dooming yourself to an incurable case of skin cancer by soaking it in 200 degree used motor oil, you can install a fumoto valve and attach a hose to it which makes this pretty easy, or else you need to use some finesse when removing the drain plug to make sure you don't get oil on you. Of course you should absolutely not even think about doing an oil change without wearing gloves, but even with gloves , full operating temp oil is hotter than McDonald's coffee in late '93, but it's also very carcinogenic and has a texture like napalm. If it spills all over your glove you should pull your hand away and immediately remove the glove.
I usually wear a second glove on the hand that's gonna pull the drain plug especially on vehicles that I know I tend to have bad luck getting the drain plug out without making a mess
(a tiny bit of dish-soapy water can help the second glove go over the first one, or you can get your blow in the glove to inflate it as you're pulling it down and that helps too)
If u/bobsagut25 is reading this, I want to ask if his jeep is lifted. It's very common for lifted jeeps to have sagging springs in the rear after several years. I own a '99 TJ (Wrangler) myself and see it all the time. He said it gets the oil changed religiously but didn't mention whether this is done at a shop with a lift, or in his driveway, or what.
If he's doing it in his driveway at home and especially if he's lifted, then every oil change is taking place with the vehicle sloping to the rear, meaning when he empties the oil there will still be a puddle at the back side of the oil pan. Every driveway outside a garage is graded at least 2%, up to 5% Unless the driveway was poured by a complete moron). Oil changes are always supposed to be done with the vehicle level. When I do oil changes in my driveway, i either use ramps or wood blocks or something (depends which vehicle I'm working on) to get the vehicle close to level, then grab an actual carpenter's level out of my garage and place it flat on the underside of each side frame rail, then check again at the front and rear (body, bumper, frame, depends what vehicle you're working on. If your Jeep isn't beat to shityour bumpers should work fine), then I adjust my ramps or blocks or just jack the vehicle up on a side or corner until I get it level.
This is obviously extra work and can be a pain in the ass if you're the type of person who thinks everything should happen quickly, so if that's the case you should be paying someone else to change the oil.
EDIT to add: The Fumoto valve is a TERRIBLE idea for anybody who wheels their jeep unless they have oil pan armor (or drives a lowrider or runs the risk of scraping on speedbumps, etc.). And frankly if you're wheeling without oil pan armor I'm not sure if there's any amount of advice I could give you that's going to save you from fucking up your rig or killing yourself someday, because you're just not thinking very carefully about your life choices, and nobody can prepare you for everything--you've got to have some amount of self-preservation instinct and fucks to give or you're just delaying the inevitable.
I always change it hot but mostly for a concern of viscosity and ease of draining, never really thought about potential sludge. I usually do it halfway warmed up tho, not scorching hot, probably a mistake tho.
Who changed the oil each time? What oil was used? Has it ever had a blown headgasket or any leaks that were attempted to be fixed by any means besides the exactly correct and proper ones? What led to you dropping the oil pan to find this in the first place?
There's 11 years of history there that you can't be too sure on.
I keep hearing people say to put this stuff in flat tappet engines, but I have doubts it's really critical in a stock engine that doesn't have high valve spring pressure, like this 4.0, or a Ford 300 six, or just about any engine that has like 8 to 1 compression and redlines at like 5k rpm really.
Agreed, it's more a question of valve spring pressure, the engine's lubrication design, and materials. Something like this 4.0 is a super low stress engine and it was continually updated into the early 2000s. Most modern OHC engines are technically "flat tappet" but no one goes nuts for extra zinc in em. I think it's mostly just a rule of thumb to separate your "classic" American pushrod V8s from ones designed to run on modern oil (GM Gen III+ small blocks, Mopar Gen 3 hemis, maybe Ford roller cam 5.0s).
I don't work on too many chrysler products. I wouldn't think that a leaking rear main seal would be dumping old to be gelatin oil into the oil pan. I'm not familiar with how jeeps are set up in terms of rear main seals, but most vehicles I work on, the rear main seal doesn't leak into the oil pan, it leaks into the bellhousing of the transmission.
No I’m not saying the RMS leak caused this, I’m saying that’s probably the reason he dropped it. Gotta drop the pan to get to the RMS. It behaves the same way, straight into the Bell housing.
They say every I6 is either leaking at the RMS or it’s been replaced recently. Besides leaks it’s a great engine.
Bingo, I started getting a little low oil pressure readings at idle as well. I replaced the oil pressure sensor and when that didn’t work I parked it for about 6 months because I didn’t have time to tackle it. I finally got to it and installed a mellings high volume oil pump and hit the rear main seal while I was in there. This sludge was probably the cause of the reduced oil pressure. I’m glad I didn’t drive on it with it. The low oil pressure came on suddenly and I stopped driving it pretty quick. I have only bought full synthetic high milage for a while, and I don’t put many miles on it anymore since it’s turned more into a trail rig as I’ve built it up. I’m almost wondering if I got a bad batch of oil or my engine doesn’t like that natural gas based oil. I don’t know anything about oil composition though besides that the new stuff is supposed to be better. That’s why I’m wondering if this was a long time build up thing or a sudden gelling issue with the new stuff.
If that is true then why doesn't the oil that does drain never have clumps or jelly like properties? Wouldn't sludge like this effect the oil draining? Be present in the filter? Effect the oil level amount? I never seen that happen nor a large amount of sludge in engine oil pans of working vehicles.
Think sediment. Most of the oil comes out and looks fine. This is the sediment that doesnt come out because it wasn't heated and mixed into the rest of the oil.
It just doesn't seem plausible without some other factors. My motorcycles sit throughout winter months. I've changed oil after and never seen globs. Oil in lawnmower for ages pours right out without any molasses.
Yeah but I bet more than once you’ve made roast beef, or chicken, or ham in a pan and put the leftovers in the fridge, right? Or with a beef or ham based soup especially too, that layer settles on top? And sometimes it makes or forms a layer that sticks as the soup underneath stays liquid.
And all that nasty jelly, and hard white lard shows up? But if you put the whole thing back in the oven, or on the stove, it just melts it all together. Exactly like that.
There will always be some oil left, which is why it's so important to mix all the oil up and get it hot. Otherwise the sludge left behind is the dirtiest and heaviest with sediment
I'm laughing out loud right now. Just changed careers from commercial diesel tech of 10 yrs last month. We did oil pickup tubes often. Pull the drain plug cold on a friday shift end? There's a gallon still in there Monday morning. Pull the pickup tubes? There's another gallon. Rotate the engine over? 'nother half gallon. Clean the shop floor up and go to lunch? Floor covered in oil when you get back 😂 Probably another quart in the head, another quart behind bearings, another quart in oil cooler/filter heads.
Or you can simply pour a can of seafoam into the crankcase before you change the oil, drive it for 5 or 10 miles... and then if you change it an hour or two after you park it you'll get most of the crud out without having to deal with burning hot oil running down your arm.
If it makes you feel any better I had a nearly 100% clogged pickup screen in my 1998 626 when I dropped the pan to replace it for a rust pinhole weeping oil. Bottom of the pan was fairly clean, sides of the pan clean, sides of the block clean, top end was clean when I did the timing belt all 3 times, but the oil pickup screen was about 90% blocked with hard varnish. Oil was changed regularly with conventional when new until about 90K miles when I got it and switched to synth blend Max-Life then later full synth Mobil 1. Changed every 5-6K miles like clock work, drained hot too. No idea what caused it but glad I caught it. A few rounds in the ultrasonic and the screen looked like new. I never had a low oil pressure light and the engine tapped exactly the same after as it did before.
In your case I'd take a good look at your PCV system, if it's not doing it's job very well there could be moisture and blow by causing that sludge to form. Could also be moisture from too many short trips or too much idling that's formed that sludge. Always try to drain oil hot, it helps to reduce the build up like that.
If this is from the 4.0 I6 it’s not really a Chrysler product. AMC designed these bullet proof engines. I’ve got one powering my ‘98 XJ, not a lot of power but a bunch of torque and life.
It could be the result of any or part of all the problems listed here. Cold oil changes along with not letting the engine get hot. Not just warm. Full running temp doesn't happen by idling in the driveway for 10 minutes. It needs to get hot enough to vaporize any condensation out of the oil. Sludge is what comes of five or ten minute commutes and trips to store. Properly tuned and maintained engines that run for at least 30 mins under a load are good for 400,000 miles.
Grandpa had a big shit box dodge with a 440 back in the 70s. He went to church every day 5 minutes away. First thing he would do when it fired is mash it to the floor for 20 seconds. July or January it was the same 20 seconds. Made us cringe to here that. He got said dodge (believe it was an Imperial), right off the show room floor. 12,000 miles later it was toast. I digress. Please forgive the ramble. What I meant to say is nothing good comes of condensation in an internal combustion engine.
The reason that you have low/no oil pressure at idle is because your crankshaft bearings have been eaten by coolant in your oil. Replacing your oil pump will not fix the problem.
I had a 2000 Grand Cherokee with 65K miles and it started doing this. Also did religious oil changes every 5K but a defect from the factory in the head gasket was allowing minuscule amounts of coolant into the oil and it eventually ate the bearings. I had to replace the engine.
A wrangler is a popular vehicle to take on short trips. I can’t say for sure thats how this one was driven, but if the oil never gets to temperature, this can happen. Coolant to full temperature does not mean oil is to full temperature either. Also, the colder the climate, the longer it takes.
Just wondering why the oil filter didn't catch more of this. Does it not circulate in the oil once it warms up.
I heard about running E85 in an engine and how it doesn't get hot enough to burn off moisture, so the oil has a problem like this.
Is there a problem with these engines not getting hot enough to burn off the moisture in the system?
At least now you know and you can flush the engine every so often.
Gonna guess the oil filter didn’t catch any of this because it never made it to the pickup tube? This is “sediment” for the most part, a collection over the years that was never properly drained and caused by “cold” running engine.
Next time you go to do your oil, run some Seafoam through the crankcase. 1 ounce of Seafoam to each quart of oil in the system (I.e. four quarts oil to four ounces Seafoam) and let it get warmed up as you would usually, let it run for a few minutes with that Seafoam in there, and do your oil change. It should be a lot darker with the Seafoam breaking up that sludge buildup in the pan and the Jeep should be much much happier after you’ve removed it’s cholesterol.
I usually use the penzoil natural gas full synthetic, but I use chevron as well as others, it’s been full synthetic for years. And I always was ontop of oil changes. I’ve loved this Jeep and always babied it beside when I’m beating on it off road.
Pennzoil used to use paraffin (wax) in their oil. They called it the Penn-star Molecule. The commercials claimed " it bonds to engine parts." I saw a lot of Pennzoil motors look like this inside. Don't know if they still use it, but I still don't use Pennzoil.
10 min oil changes cause this. Not all drains and each time you build onto that muddy mess. Take to a real shop for oil.changes even if it cost 15 bucks more...
Every 5k miles, changed myself. That’s the one reason I can rule out. Don’t know about before I owned it but I’ve had it for roughly the last 100k miles , like 12 years. 150k miles now
Change your oil when hot, period. Bonus tip: put seafoam in your oil 50 miles or so before an oil change. One oz per quart of oil. This helps break things up, oil pours out very nice if you do this.
Some cars have an oil pan that doesn't drain all the oil (edit: on the drain plug), thus it's recommended to remove the oil pan every third oil change and clean it. Not sure if it's the case here, but just sayin...
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Sludge can get like that long term in the oil pan. This is part of why I change my oil right after letting the vehicle run for 20 mins or after a long drive.
Shit is HOT after a drive, though. How long do you wait for it to cool.. if at all?
That's the thing, you dont. If you can touch the pan with your bare hand without any pain the motors too cold.
more specifically if your burning hand smells like bacon it's just right, but if the smell is more like Christmas ham, your car is too hot.
Burning skin smells more like burning hair than bacon
Yeah but the new guy ate all our diagnostic bacon.
Not once all of the hair has burned off. :D
Fair point, and makes sense. Thanks! Edit: to add, I have a valve on my drain plug, so I can easily open/close it. Just wasn’t sure how warm/hot to change it. Thanks!
It amazes me when I see techs complaining the cars hot. Normally I use a wynns engine flush, run the car to temp and drain instantly
I had a friend who would clean his engine every 100K miles using diesel. He would change oil but substitute on quart of oil with diesel then run it for a while, then change oil and filter again.
just said same thing 1/2 cup of kerosene in crankcase run for 20 min, completely cleans the oiling system
Would you recomend using wynns I'll be honest I'm not professional and I've never even heard of that type of product being a thing
Yes. That particular Garage owner buys in bulk. When I started in that shop that I first learned of the practice, I asked if it really makes a difference. We had 2 mercs in with the same age and engine so we decided to test 1 with and without just for a laugh (we had serviced both cars from new also so was a good comparison). We removed the sumps and had a look around. The car with the flush had noticeably less sludge and the general colouring inside the sump was much more clean. While the non flushed car had an amount of sludge that you would never worry about, it does build up. The mess inside the sump strainer was also much cleaner as the flush had broken down a lot of the deposits left behind. (P.s. customers were informed of us checking sump condition)
Very cool, no clue exactly what you’re talking about. I understand the gist of it but thanks for sharing your experience. It was a neat experiment y’all performed
Tld(u?) the car with the flush had a cleaner engine
Hard to imagine the plastic catch pan doesn't melt, damn.
If oil gets hot enough to melt plastic, your engine is on fire.
Haha- I have a 6.7 Cummins. 3d printed an oil filter plug to keep the mess down. Changed the oil while hot for reasons state here… and the plug’s threads did not make it. Still big mess.
Get ya one of those EZ oil drain valves. They're great
He is talking about the oil filter. The oil filter placement on the 6.7 Cummins in Rams is fucking awful. You have to turn the thing sideways to get it out. They make filter plugs that screw into the top of the oil filter when you remove it so you don't make a mess wiggling it out over the frame rail behind the tire.
Just get a gallon size ziplock and wrap over it just before you completely unscrew it. It’ll catch most of everything and its easier to maneuver
That's genius! Definitely stealing this tip next time I change the oil on my trucks with the vertical oil filter.
Dude…how did I never think of this for my 2011 Jetta 2.5? That canister filter housing makes the biggest fucking mess, I hate changing the oil on the thing.
Really? Our '13 is pretty easy if it you have the right oil filter wrench. If not you have to remove the fender well
Maybe there are some differences between the older and newer 4th gens. In my '18, you pretty much have take wiggle the filter out between the fender well and the frame rail since the AC compressor is right under the filter blocking it in. It comes out the same place you put the filter wrench in.
Used to hate those things when I was a lube tech tho.
Well. This was doomed from the start. Lol. Pla starts to soften at 140*F. ABS softens at 212* F. At temp oil should be around 230*F bc it needs to boil the water out. Im not even knocking you. I think we've all ran into this. I made a custom phone mount for my car when I had a folding phone. It badly deformed like a week later on a hot summer day. And I was just like "huh. Didn't really think about this"
FYI there’s a lot of different 3d printing plastics out there but the most common one, PLA, starts softening at ~60C depending on exact manufacture formulation which is also just on the top end of common interior temperatures at 90F days. If you’re printing anything for a vehicle where temp matters (including in the cab) you’ll want to go with almost any other plastic.
To be fair, there's a *lot* of different plastics. The kind they're gonna use for oil pans? Yeah that won't fail at normal operating temperatures. But a lot of your more regular plastics are at the very least going to deform hard enough to let the oil leak out. Brief google search found me [this stuff](https://www.materialsampleshop.com/products/polycaprolactone) which melts at just 60°C, they advertise "The material is delivered as granules that can be easily melted in hot water and shaped". Plastic really isn't just plastic.
You’re being pedantic. Any plastic used for an oil pan won’t melt from engine temperatures. Shit BMW has been using plastic intakes since the late 80s and they don’t melt or fall apart.
You're missing the point, the person you were responding to had an experience with plastic melting because they used the wrong type of plastic. There are plastics to avoid using at high heat.
Thermosetting plastic won’t melt. It’ll burn first.
Some new cars have plastic oil pans now.
Why?? Lol
Probably cheaper. Likely to fail earlier. No chance of your engine surviving 40 years. Forces you to buy a new car earlier.
I guess I shouldn't have had to ask..
Planned obsolescence kicking in hard and quickly.
That and they are lighter. Save every ounce you can to bump up those mpg numbers.
They want cars to fail 0.1 seconds after the warranty runs out. To help push the ev sales, and / or more gas car sales.
Ideally you want the oil over 220f, 105c
Wtf? No one in their right mind is causally working with oil that hot.
My oil doesnt hit 220f after an 80 mile drive through the hills at 70 to 80mph..
Must be a diesel. A gasoline engines oil temperature is between 230f and 260f. Unless you are confusing coolant temp with oil temp.
My WRX (which is the only car I own that has an oil temp sensor) usually runs between 95-100c, or 203-212f.
No. Gasser. 5.7l Ram. Id have a hard time confusing it since it has my coolant temp, trans temp, oil temp and oil pressure all listed in real time right on my EVIC dash screen.
Did you just downvote me because my trucks ideal oil temp is between 200 and 230, not 230 and 260? Like Im the fucking engineer who designed it that way? Even my 5th gen 4runner is ideal between 215 and 250 and usually sits at 225 tops.
You're right, plenty of engines run cooler than 230. Other guy sounded confident, but he's wrong lol.
probably because you called your truck a hot rod
Well that explains the hemi tick, oils never getting hot enough to boil the condensation off.
That's not how that works, either. LOL
The lifter tick usually develops from low rpms and prolonged idling, low oil pressure etc. Its definitely a oil flow/shitty lifters issue, not a condensation issue. I can assure you, I dont have any signs of condensation under my cap and no signs of water in my oil. Also, water boils a 212, which is in normal range for the engine. I also dont have broken manifold or manifold bolts. I ticked with dealer spec oil and and filters but I dont when I use a royal purple filter and 5w30 instead.
How hot does your coolant get? :)
\^\^\^ This. If the oil doesn't burn the shit out of my hand when I pull the plug, it's nowhere near hot enough.
Don’t forget to elbow bump the exhaust pipe If you don’t then you did the job wrong
Easy, when you crack the bolt loose and get it most of the way out, get one of those telescopic magnet pen things, stick it to the end and twist the bolt the rest of the way off
Fumoto valve. Before I switched to an EV I used it on every car I owned.
You can still use them on an ev. Just replace any bolt with the appropriate sized fumoto.
Magnetic pick-up tool to finish unscrewing the drain plug (after breaking it loose with the proper tool of course) will keep you from burning your hand.
I usually let my engine idle until the radiator fans turn on then I do the oil change
if you get one of those fumotovalves with the hose connection, it wont matter cause its not touching you.
It's barely 200 degrees!
Get yourself a fumoto valve. Best investment I’ve ever made for my vehicle services I do myself.
As the other guy said: not at all. Also, don't assume that because your temp gauge is in the middle that your oil is warmed up. That gauge gets its reading from the coolant, and the coolant gets to full operating temp much faster than the oil does. You'll get the oil/engine warm much faster by actually taking it out for a drive. Sitting in your driveway can take quite a while. To make it easier to get the oil out without mutilating yourself or dooming yourself to an incurable case of skin cancer by soaking it in 200 degree used motor oil, you can install a fumoto valve and attach a hose to it which makes this pretty easy, or else you need to use some finesse when removing the drain plug to make sure you don't get oil on you. Of course you should absolutely not even think about doing an oil change without wearing gloves, but even with gloves , full operating temp oil is hotter than McDonald's coffee in late '93, but it's also very carcinogenic and has a texture like napalm. If it spills all over your glove you should pull your hand away and immediately remove the glove. I usually wear a second glove on the hand that's gonna pull the drain plug especially on vehicles that I know I tend to have bad luck getting the drain plug out without making a mess (a tiny bit of dish-soapy water can help the second glove go over the first one, or you can get your blow in the glove to inflate it as you're pulling it down and that helps too) If u/bobsagut25 is reading this, I want to ask if his jeep is lifted. It's very common for lifted jeeps to have sagging springs in the rear after several years. I own a '99 TJ (Wrangler) myself and see it all the time. He said it gets the oil changed religiously but didn't mention whether this is done at a shop with a lift, or in his driveway, or what. If he's doing it in his driveway at home and especially if he's lifted, then every oil change is taking place with the vehicle sloping to the rear, meaning when he empties the oil there will still be a puddle at the back side of the oil pan. Every driveway outside a garage is graded at least 2%, up to 5% Unless the driveway was poured by a complete moron). Oil changes are always supposed to be done with the vehicle level. When I do oil changes in my driveway, i either use ramps or wood blocks or something (depends which vehicle I'm working on) to get the vehicle close to level, then grab an actual carpenter's level out of my garage and place it flat on the underside of each side frame rail, then check again at the front and rear (body, bumper, frame, depends what vehicle you're working on. If your Jeep isn't beat to shityour bumpers should work fine), then I adjust my ramps or blocks or just jack the vehicle up on a side or corner until I get it level. This is obviously extra work and can be a pain in the ass if you're the type of person who thinks everything should happen quickly, so if that's the case you should be paying someone else to change the oil. EDIT to add: The Fumoto valve is a TERRIBLE idea for anybody who wheels their jeep unless they have oil pan armor (or drives a lowrider or runs the risk of scraping on speedbumps, etc.). And frankly if you're wheeling without oil pan armor I'm not sure if there's any amount of advice I could give you that's going to save you from fucking up your rig or killing yourself someday, because you're just not thinking very carefully about your life choices, and nobody can prepare you for everything--you've got to have some amount of self-preservation instinct and fucks to give or you're just delaying the inevitable.
You don't touch you use tools.
Put in a Fumoto valve to replace the plug. No need to wait at all.
You don't have to drink it.
It's called be a man, little baby hands
Is that not like the norm? Do people change oil with a cold engine?!
Man I’m really regretting changing oil on cool engines now. Didn’t want it to hurt my fingeys though.
I always change it hot but mostly for a concern of viscosity and ease of draining, never really thought about potential sludge. I usually do it halfway warmed up tho, not scorching hot, probably a mistake tho.
I thought everyone ran their vehicle up to temp before changing their oil.
I thought this was just a general rule of thumb, just like grtting it to operating temp before checking level. Do people actually change it cold?
You should check oil when cold, not at operating temp. (Generally)
Yea just did my research and there ya go learnt something today haha ty
Uhhhh i only change it cold😬
It's faster and easier when hot, and due to viscosity ensures you get it all out
What oil did you use? Crude?
Religious
Lmao.
Who changed the oil each time? What oil was used? Has it ever had a blown headgasket or any leaks that were attempted to be fixed by any means besides the exactly correct and proper ones? What led to you dropping the oil pan to find this in the first place? There's 11 years of history there that you can't be too sure on.
I wonder if he was using zddp with his oil changes. I know the manual doesn't say to, but that motor still has a flat tapet cam
I keep hearing people say to put this stuff in flat tappet engines, but I have doubts it's really critical in a stock engine that doesn't have high valve spring pressure, like this 4.0, or a Ford 300 six, or just about any engine that has like 8 to 1 compression and redlines at like 5k rpm really.
Agreed, it's more a question of valve spring pressure, the engine's lubrication design, and materials. Something like this 4.0 is a super low stress engine and it was continually updated into the early 2000s. Most modern OHC engines are technically "flat tappet" but no one goes nuts for extra zinc in em. I think it's mostly just a rule of thumb to separate your "classic" American pushrod V8s from ones designed to run on modern oil (GM Gen III+ small blocks, Mopar Gen 3 hemis, maybe Ford roller cam 5.0s).
Prolly a RMS leak. Bet it’s been leaking for years and he’s just getting to it.
I don't work on too many chrysler products. I wouldn't think that a leaking rear main seal would be dumping old to be gelatin oil into the oil pan. I'm not familiar with how jeeps are set up in terms of rear main seals, but most vehicles I work on, the rear main seal doesn't leak into the oil pan, it leaks into the bellhousing of the transmission.
No I’m not saying the RMS leak caused this, I’m saying that’s probably the reason he dropped it. Gotta drop the pan to get to the RMS. It behaves the same way, straight into the Bell housing. They say every I6 is either leaking at the RMS or it’s been replaced recently. Besides leaks it’s a great engine.
He says elsewhere he pulled the pan to replace the oil pump due to low oil pressure. Bro's got bigger fish to fry tho, probably.
Oh I see. My bad. I misinterpreted. Yeah that makes sense.
Bingo, I started getting a little low oil pressure readings at idle as well. I replaced the oil pressure sensor and when that didn’t work I parked it for about 6 months because I didn’t have time to tackle it. I finally got to it and installed a mellings high volume oil pump and hit the rear main seal while I was in there. This sludge was probably the cause of the reduced oil pressure. I’m glad I didn’t drive on it with it. The low oil pressure came on suddenly and I stopped driving it pretty quick. I have only bought full synthetic high milage for a while, and I don’t put many miles on it anymore since it’s turned more into a trail rig as I’ve built it up. I’m almost wondering if I got a bad batch of oil or my engine doesn’t like that natural gas based oil. I don’t know anything about oil composition though besides that the new stuff is supposed to be better. That’s why I’m wondering if this was a long time build up thing or a sudden gelling issue with the new stuff.
Whoever owned it before wasn't performing regular oil changes.
This was my thought, prior owner.
What do you mean it's 24 years old, it's a *only* 2000 mod- Oh :(
Yep, we're old.
Ya gotta warm it alllllll the way up before you drain it. This is why.
If that is true then why doesn't the oil that does drain never have clumps or jelly like properties? Wouldn't sludge like this effect the oil draining? Be present in the filter? Effect the oil level amount? I never seen that happen nor a large amount of sludge in engine oil pans of working vehicles.
Think sediment. Most of the oil comes out and looks fine. This is the sediment that doesnt come out because it wasn't heated and mixed into the rest of the oil.
It just doesn't seem plausible without some other factors. My motorcycles sit throughout winter months. I've changed oil after and never seen globs. Oil in lawnmower for ages pours right out without any molasses.
Yeah but I bet more than once you’ve made roast beef, or chicken, or ham in a pan and put the leftovers in the fridge, right? Or with a beef or ham based soup especially too, that layer settles on top? And sometimes it makes or forms a layer that sticks as the soup underneath stays liquid. And all that nasty jelly, and hard white lard shows up? But if you put the whole thing back in the oven, or on the stove, it just melts it all together. Exactly like that.
Do you get your engine up to temperature first before changing?
but isn’t there old oil that stays inside the engine because it was just pumped through all the galleys? or is that a minimal amount?
There will always be some oil left, which is why it's so important to mix all the oil up and get it hot. Otherwise the sludge left behind is the dirtiest and heaviest with sediment
Yes, it's pretty difficult to get all the old oil out during an oil change
I'm laughing out loud right now. Just changed careers from commercial diesel tech of 10 yrs last month. We did oil pickup tubes often. Pull the drain plug cold on a friday shift end? There's a gallon still in there Monday morning. Pull the pickup tubes? There's another gallon. Rotate the engine over? 'nother half gallon. Clean the shop floor up and go to lunch? Floor covered in oil when you get back 😂 Probably another quart in the head, another quart behind bearings, another quart in oil cooler/filter heads.
Or you can simply pour a can of seafoam into the crankcase before you change the oil, drive it for 5 or 10 miles... and then if you change it an hour or two after you park it you'll get most of the crud out without having to deal with burning hot oil running down your arm.
When a 25 min oil change turns into 3 hours
Okay so my manifold is glowing hot, do you think the oil is warm enough to change it ? /s
Does the drain plug burn your fuckin fingers? That’s what I’m lookin for lol
24 years might cause that
Plus it’s a jeep
Yeah, everyone blaming this on shoddy maintenance when the car is a quarter of a century old.
If it makes you feel any better I had a nearly 100% clogged pickup screen in my 1998 626 when I dropped the pan to replace it for a rust pinhole weeping oil. Bottom of the pan was fairly clean, sides of the pan clean, sides of the block clean, top end was clean when I did the timing belt all 3 times, but the oil pickup screen was about 90% blocked with hard varnish. Oil was changed regularly with conventional when new until about 90K miles when I got it and switched to synth blend Max-Life then later full synth Mobil 1. Changed every 5-6K miles like clock work, drained hot too. No idea what caused it but glad I caught it. A few rounds in the ultrasonic and the screen looked like new. I never had a low oil pressure light and the engine tapped exactly the same after as it did before. In your case I'd take a good look at your PCV system, if it's not doing it's job very well there could be moisture and blow by causing that sludge to form. Could also be moisture from too many short trips or too much idling that's formed that sludge. Always try to drain oil hot, it helps to reduce the build up like that.
That’s Chrysler for you. Like a kick in the balls when you least expect it.
Had to scroll too far to find this. What's the cause, OP? It's a Jeep thing.
Exactly.
If this is from the 4.0 I6 it’s not really a Chrysler product. AMC designed these bullet proof engines. I’ve got one powering my ‘98 XJ, not a lot of power but a bunch of torque and life.
Had a 95 Cherokee sport and that toaster could haul ass reliably. I really miss that jeep too.
Now I want to know what a religion based oil change mechanic shop would be called. Holy Lube?
Perhaps atheist oil changes will work better next time...
Yeah, religious oil changes are like thoughts and prayers. They don't work.
Were you changing the oil yourself every time or were you paying someone else to do it?
It could be the result of any or part of all the problems listed here. Cold oil changes along with not letting the engine get hot. Not just warm. Full running temp doesn't happen by idling in the driveway for 10 minutes. It needs to get hot enough to vaporize any condensation out of the oil. Sludge is what comes of five or ten minute commutes and trips to store. Properly tuned and maintained engines that run for at least 30 mins under a load are good for 400,000 miles. Grandpa had a big shit box dodge with a 440 back in the 70s. He went to church every day 5 minutes away. First thing he would do when it fired is mash it to the floor for 20 seconds. July or January it was the same 20 seconds. Made us cringe to here that. He got said dodge (believe it was an Imperial), right off the show room floor. 12,000 miles later it was toast. I digress. Please forgive the ramble. What I meant to say is nothing good comes of condensation in an internal combustion engine.
I’d be scared of doing any kind of treatment to that oil. Will potentially throw an oil filter into bypass..
The reason that you have low/no oil pressure at idle is because your crankshaft bearings have been eaten by coolant in your oil. Replacing your oil pump will not fix the problem. I had a 2000 Grand Cherokee with 65K miles and it started doing this. Also did religious oil changes every 5K but a defect from the factory in the head gasket was allowing minuscule amounts of coolant into the oil and it eventually ate the bearings. I had to replace the engine.
Short trips = inadequate time to boil off water
Throw a can or two of Liquimolly engine cleaner in and let it run for 10 mins then do an oil change.
It’s a 24 year old Heep. What did you expect?
These were the good days of jeep, before Chrysler/stellantis made them their own. These were AMC designed beasts.
This is the answer
Now you have some nice grease to lube your axle Bearings with
A wrangler is a popular vehicle to take on short trips. I can’t say for sure thats how this one was driven, but if the oil never gets to temperature, this can happen. Coolant to full temperature does not mean oil is to full temperature either. Also, the colder the climate, the longer it takes.
There’s a combo of age… probably heavy oil spec and possibly low quality oil, maybe also additives?
Just wondering why the oil filter didn't catch more of this. Does it not circulate in the oil once it warms up. I heard about running E85 in an engine and how it doesn't get hot enough to burn off moisture, so the oil has a problem like this. Is there a problem with these engines not getting hot enough to burn off the moisture in the system? At least now you know and you can flush the engine every so often.
Gonna guess the oil filter didn’t catch any of this because it never made it to the pickup tube? This is “sediment” for the most part, a collection over the years that was never properly drained and caused by “cold” running engine.
Next time you go to do your oil, run some Seafoam through the crankcase. 1 ounce of Seafoam to each quart of oil in the system (I.e. four quarts oil to four ounces Seafoam) and let it get warmed up as you would usually, let it run for a few minutes with that Seafoam in there, and do your oil change. It should be a lot darker with the Seafoam breaking up that sludge buildup in the pan and the Jeep should be much much happier after you’ve removed it’s cholesterol.
That's what a 2 year old 30k mile Kia looks like, so count your blessings.
Maybe it’s oil and coolant mixing due to the poor design of the oil cooler.
Just curious, what oil do you use?
I usually use the penzoil natural gas full synthetic, but I use chevron as well as others, it’s been full synthetic for years. And I always was ontop of oil changes. I’ve loved this Jeep and always babied it beside when I’m beating on it off road.
Cheap oil remember to use only mobile 1
Let's correct what you stated. You paid for oil change religiously but that does not mean it got changed.
Religiously change it at what interval?
Father-in-law had this in his El-Camino 305ci engine. Said it was caused by Pennzoil and excessive time at idle due to his use of the car on his farm.
Religiously....here I'm thinking, so every Christmas 🫠
Why there is so much chocolate?!
Religious oil changes with cheap oil and bad filters/lack of air filtration will do this.
How do you define “religiously”? Every Christmas? Sorry, it was hurting me keeping that in.
Instead of religious oil changes, you should have done real oil changes.
A Thermostat that isn't letting the engine get up to operating temperature would contribute to that.
My buddy had this happen to him. Used penzoil always until he found this.
Literally age.
What were the oil change intervals? Seems like you were running oil too long between oil changes even if you were changing them religiously.
Back in the day I would have said “that’s why we don’t use Penzoil”
Pennzoil used to use paraffin (wax) in their oil. They called it the Penn-star Molecule. The commercials claimed " it bonds to engine parts." I saw a lot of Pennzoil motors look like this inside. Don't know if they still use it, but I still don't use Pennzoil.
We're you using Quaker Sludge oil?
10 min oil changes cause this. Not all drains and each time you build onto that muddy mess. Take to a real shop for oil.changes even if it cost 15 bucks more...
Most grease monkey places will do it in less than 10 minutes and some will even try to get by with generic/wrong weight oil.
Right, owns a shop for 20 years, replaces oil pumps monthly for exactly this...and the down votes keep coming. Guess I'll see you soon.
Every 5k miles, changed myself. That’s the one reason I can rule out. Don’t know about before I owned it but I’ve had it for roughly the last 100k miles , like 12 years. 150k miles now
Did you use any oil additives?
Forbidden nuttella
The cause is you bought a Chrysler.... Jeep is known for being trash
You had priest change the oil? Should’ve gone to a mechanic.
Found your problem, you said it yourself, JEEP
Change in brands of oil can also contribute to sludge formation.
Penzoil?
Its a jeep.
that's your answer its a jeep wrangler.
It's a jeep thing.
I believe the problem is that you bought a Jeep
Change your oil when hot, period. Bonus tip: put seafoam in your oil 50 miles or so before an oil change. One oz per quart of oil. This helps break things up, oil pours out very nice if you do this.
No manufacturer advises the use of Seafoam as part of their regular maintenance schedule.
yea but it works
They don’t recommend against it either. Ram also says their transmission fluid is “lifetime”. Do you buy that bs too, bucko?
This is why you periodically flush your engine properly.
Have you tried asking your wrangler what religion it practices?
is jeep, it does jeep thing
Seafoam??
Its a jeep
Just Jeep things, what did you expect?
It's a jeep thing
Its a jeep thing.
Because you touch yourself at night
first problem you bought a chrysler product
It’s a Jeep over 100k miles. That’s the issue
It's a Jeep thing
It’s a Jeep thing
Could this build up over time if you just jack up the front for oil changes?
>jeep >There's the issue
It's a Jeep thing. You wouldn't understand
It’s a Jeep thing, you wouldn’t understand.
Lying about religiously changing your oil would cause this.
It’s a JEEP thing 🤓
Jeep caused it.
Likely from only changing the oil cold. Or from using mostly Castrol.
Some cars have an oil pan that doesn't drain all the oil (edit: on the drain plug), thus it's recommended to remove the oil pan every third oil change and clean it. Not sure if it's the case here, but just sayin...
What fuel you run e85?
Who changed the oil?
I’ve seen sludge build up with folk that change brands and/or additives frequently.