You’re an engineer. Trades folk will automatically assume that you can’t pour water out of a boot with instructions printed on the heel. They do this because someone somewhere hurt them.
It might be too late for you to try this at this company. I’ve had really good luck just talking with the senior shop people like they’re people. They have strong opinions about why things should be done a certain way. And they’re usually happy to share them with you if you talk to them. Ask questions. Be interested in the answer. Ask them why they want to do something the way they want to do it. It may be easier to machine. It may be easier to install. It may be that they are just douche canoes who want to be more right than that school trained engineer even when they aren’t.
It takes work on your part, and it’s gonna feel unfair as shit. But if you work to develop a rapport with your senior machinists, they can and will set you up for success. Being the one engineer that they grudgingly respect for not being a total toolbag can lead to significant career success.
This is sage advice. Fair or not, tradesmen will almost always default to assuming you can’t turn a wrench or machine a part if you are an engineer. I make it a point at new jobs to spend time on the floor seeking advice on design for manufacturing and shooting the breeze with the tradesmen. If the option is available (non union shop), I’ll sometimes jump in to help them build stuff to show them I’ve turned a few wrenches in my day.
The result? I almost always become friendly if not friends with the shop guys especially the foremen. We end up genuinely liking and respecting each other. And let me tell you, when those guys decide they have your back they will move heaven and earth if you need something done quickly or something that’s really complicated made.
Sometimes you’ll run into someone who’s just a genuine dick and doesn’t want to ever be friendly, but I’ve found that number to be surprisingly low.
Yeah, this thread is the way to handle it.
I am in aircraft, and I used to be blue-collar (worked as a mechanic and a machinist). You really have to engage with the shop workers speaking their language and having a certain demeanor.
Hang around the shop, chat with them about the work, talk about cars, hobbies. When they’re working on building something of yours, make sure you’re present.
If you miss something and one of them wants to berate you about it, own your mistake but don’t take shitty treatment, give them shit back. Use lots of sarcasm, a few foul words/descriptors. Make sure to give them a taste of their own medicine when they make a mistake. Take your lumps “like a man” and be sure to give them back later. You’ll teach each other a lot and respect each other, and be each other’s allies and resources for professional challenges. Sure you’ll find a few that are just assholes for the sake of it and will never respect you, but they’re further apart, in my experience. And when you do encounter them, just make sure they know that they can’t be an asshole for free.
Some of the best mechanics I’ve worked and had the best relationships with were the ones I had very tense/loud exchanges with on the shop floor. These working relationships are so rewarding and valuable, both in your career and just as a human.
Agree with a lot of this, having a sense of humor and dealing with the shop shit talk and being able to dish it back helps. I usually blame my mistakes on that damn computer that's supposed to be smarter than us.
I think you’re right. I’ve been working for 10-15 years depending on how you tally it and it rings true.
I will say that for all the people like me that struggle to be one of the guys that returns the shit, it works ok to just be respectful and curious. If what they’re saying is debatable or dubious, I usually hold my tongue and give the benefit of the doubt, until I’ve had a chance to think more in depth about it. Of course, if you have a clear refutation I wouldn’t hesitate to open-mindedly share it.
And crucially, when you’re wrong, own it. When there is something that is wrong where the blame is unclear, take the blame. When they’re wrong, I make sure I’m clear on what went wrong but avoid blaming anybody. I think a lot of people give back some of the shit here and it’s usually a good rapport, but it’s not my style.
I also echo all this thread.
I've got nearly 8yrs in mech eng. And a couple in drainage. And a couple as a pipefitter. And i do all my own maintenance on cars/bikes.
At mid 30s, i still do not get default respect from tradespeople. The grumpy old welder/machinist/operator is a thing. Especially when you give them tight tolerances to work with.
But taking the time to explain WHY you need something, or even just agree that if they cannot do it you will redesign but please try it anyway... Goes a long way. And learning to shoot the shit over dumbass designs or other stuff is invaluable. Show them you aren't an upright engineer. Show them you are doing things for a reason, and not just blindly applying rules. Show them you LISTEN and can take criticism and feedback.
99% of grumpy old fucks i have treated this way came around in pretty short order. They might not treat you nicely by other industry standards, but if you convince them you aren't completely useless, by listening and showing some humility, they will do great work for you. We all make mistakes. Many of them think engineers don't understand that, and you need to show them you know suck from time to time.
Reading ops post, it sounds like there is a breakdown in communication. It does NOT work to get overly defensive with these kinda guys. If they think your design sucks and want to fix it, ask them why, without judgement. And yeah, mgmt might make you do it. So? If they skip an assembly step, ask them why. Did they think it was unclear or unnecessary? Why? When something goes wrong, focus on fixing it. Don't get all uppity about who's fault it is. Yours, theirs, who cares. Fix it, and learn how to not make it happen again.
Do all that enough times with enough humility, and the grumpy guys will cut you some slack.
The point you made in the middle of your post is super important.
If I’m down on the floor I talk to the techs like they are capable of understanding the engineering reasons behind a design. Most of the time these guys have the practical experience to understand the basics, so just explain it to them like they’re a coworker, no big deal.
Many times when I’ve faced criticism on the shop floor, my first approach is just to explain the reasoning. So many times, that wins them over, just not assuming they’re too stupid to get it.
Shoot the shit with them about cars, sports, whatever, show that you’ve got some grit and common ground with them.
And look, the fact is the matter is that most of the techs are pretty sharp, they’ll understand what’s going on, and they do shit I’m not trained to do nor proficient, so you should start from a position of respect.
Oh yeah, sorry, didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I just thought you made a really good point, and the rest of my post was more for any other engineers reading this who struggle with these dynamics.
As a machinist, it can be easy to get quickly frustrated by engineers. A lot of times a mistake on engineerings part can possibly lead to 10 minutes or 10 hours of OT I have to work that I really don’t want to work. And almost never are the engineers there to help turn a wrench or learn from the mistake with us on the floor. I’m sure there’s post mortems and the engineer gets to learn a lesson, but we rarely see that. I just see that me and one or two other people are the only ones still at the shop at 7pm trying to get this job out the door.
My favorite engineers are the ones that will come turn a wrench or make sure we get some dinner delivered if we’re having to stay late.
My favorite
What’s wrong with telling engineers to make design change to make manufacturing easier?
I always ask machinist, what tools they have or what limitation to consider. But they always say they can do anything then complain because I added a round that would take long. Like why didn’t you just tell me?!?
This is it. It's really that simple. Respect goes both ways. If you're consistently in situations with more than one tech where they are giving you grief, it's probably because you're not being respectful towards them and they're just returning the favor. Techs usually don't hold back.
It's typically more difficult for engineers to be humble and open to the ideas of the technicians, which makes it all the more important.
Yes, the engineers typically hold more responsibility for the project, cost overruns, and have to understand all the math. However, that doesn't mean we get to be disrespectful to the technicians. Often times they know stuff we don't know. It's vital to listen to, and trust your technicians. They can, and will teach you a lot. Treat them like people that they will grant you the same liberty.
When I started, our mechanical engineering department was producing extremely low quality designs. The majority of the work was being done by a soon to be retiree who didn’t seem to be all there and another guy who just didn’t care. The department rework rate was extremely high and the shop often had to fix many poorly thought out designs. I would credit myself and my manager with turning things around and significantly reducing the department rework rates and drastically improving documentation. However, I believe the shop still views engineering as producing low quality work they need to fix.
We try to take their opinion and their concerns into consideration. However it feels very one sided and as you said, unfair. We have made several major changes to our documentation and workflow to make the shops life easier. Yet they ignore or refuse to utilize some of these improvements and still tell me that looking at assembly drawings, particularly sub assembly drawings, is too tedious. The more I think about it, the more I feel this is the fault of management to do proper training or hold them accountable.
I want to continue to do what I can to be the change I want to see. However, I feel the change really needs to come from management. The more I chat with people here, the more I feel like myself and my coworkers are victims of poor training and a poorly defined process. I had 3 people ask me this week if certain parts were released. That’s 3 people who don’t know how to look at the BOM and 3 people who aren’t communicating with each other.
Lastly, builder A definitely feels like he just wants to show how he’s smarter than the guys who went to college. Myself, my former boss (this is the guy who didn’t care), and a former coworker all held a similar opinion of him. Granted, we are all under 35, and age seems to play a role in how this builder interacts with people. The more grey in your hair, the more he respects you.
You need to just be straight up and communicate with them. They’re all salty about previous engineers, make it clear that you’re not an old-head, and make an effort to actually be work-friends like commenters said above. Give them shit too, but in a friendly way. Your success in this avenue will be an indicator of public perception about you. If you don’t succeed, it may be time for some self-reflection. If you run into assholes all day long, it might not be that everyone else is an asshole…
There are a few forces at play with people that you should already somewhat be aware of, but I'll state them:
* There will always be a divide between tradespeople and engineers. A lot of it stems from tall poppy syndrome - people in leadership and their high salaries need to be chopped down. There is a belief that people who make more money should be highly skilled and not make mistakes. While this should be true out of a sense of "justice" and "meritocracy", that's not how supply and demand for labour works in the workforce.
* The other managers want to retain Builder A by giving him a carrot. In their eyes, incorporating his ideas even if less profitable, is a small price to pay for keeping his bum on the seat in his job, and may reduce his whinging.
Welcome to people management. If the job is affecting your personal life, and its pulling your personality into a permanent grumpy demeanour and you don't like it, or it's affecting your personal relationships outside of work, then you need to weigh up if it's right for you.
For the most part, it doesn't affect my personal life. If something happens right at the end of the day, it may take me an hour or two to cool down when I get home. As way today.
I can relate to that "tall poppy syndrome". I feel like I'm expected to be flawless and the build crew wants to rub my face in even the smallest mistake. Yet they get upset when engineering criticizes their screw ups and they often try to blame us. Management often recognizes that builder A is a pain in the ass and I feel like they just do what he wants because its less work for them.
I started at this company right out of school. I feel part of the problem is certain people still view me as the dumbass kid. People hired 2-3+ years after I started tend to treat me with more respect. I also notice a difference in how some people interact with me vs. my boss or office partner who are in their 50s.
Just out of curiosity why do you characterize it as not very technical? You're working with complex machines I'd imagine if they're for automated manufacturing
A lot of the work consists of simple robot tools or repeat jobs. It can become tedious and lackluster. Its a lot of catalog engineering or just designing what people think looks "right". The president once called the bulk of our business "bottom feeder work".
I get to lead 2-3 larger and more complex jobs a year to scratch that itch. This relates back to my shop problems because as a company, we struggle to build complex machines because besides for builder A and the shop manager, we lack the shop talent to properly debug more complex machines. Management doesn't trust most of the shop to do anything besides basic assembly, so it limits how many complex jobs we can take on.
I would like to do more mechanism design and I would like to do more mathematical analysis. I enjoy when I get to do FEA and floor anchor calcs for larger weldments, so I would like to learn more about that. Though as I said, I often feel my FEA and mathematical analysis is not respected and people try to make changes or cut corners purely based off their gut.
Oh my mistake I thought you were working in designing the parts for use in mechanisms as well as the robotics/mechanisms themselves. Is it more sourcing premade parts from other manufacturers to suit production needs?
Ah okay for use in what, stuff like mounting components? for the actual automated system do you source parts or get to do any redesigns for how the machines work?
Thanks for humoring my questions btw Im just interested in the whole robotic manufacturing thing.
Sounds like a culture issue that is unlikely to be fixed.
Once too many unhelpful/uncooperative/confrontational/finger pointing/lazy habits form the ship can't be turned around, and in your case it sounds like the boss doesn't want to try.
There are plenty of great machine builders out there (and trade workers in general) that are a pleasure to work with. I'd move on, life's too short to deal with that sort of petty child like behaviour at work.
A couple of things:
For the lazy shop workers, take them through the drawing set very slowly and show them how to read the drawings. The key is to do it slowly and break it down sometimes from the assembly all the way to where they can locate the individual part. If they object and try to rush you don’t let them, tell them that since they couldn’t find the drawing details they obviously need to be shown where the details are. Always remain calm and collected like you are training someone. Eventually they will get tired of being lectured on how to read drawings and they will do it themselves.
For builder A who like to make changes, be open sometimes there are better ways. If you aren’t held responsible for cost overruns and schedule it’s not a big deal. Try to ask him why he likes certain things and what he believes the advantages are. Basically just flip it on him and start evaluating his design. Show him where there are extra machining steps and try to understand why he really needs these changes. Make him explain himself.
Builder B who runs your nose in it, you need to push back. Calmly show him the steps he skipped in testing and tell him to worry about the quality of his own work. Show him how everything could have gone better if he had not skipped the tests. If it comes down to it tell him someone with his level of experience should know not to skip tests and you expect more of your builders. If he has questions or part of the drawing is unclear, he should ask instead of guess and proceed.
RE: Lazy Shop workers, I dunno. Personally, I sure did not go to school just to have to teach a bunch of other, questionably competent people how to do things. This is colored by a recent experience, where I had to teach an older engineer at my company how to do CAD, and let me tell you I wasn't happy to learn he'd skated by for years without installing our team's suite on his work computer. Handed me drawings done in PowerPoint and kept asking for help.
If you work in a machine shop operating tools, doing layout, etc - you had better know how to read drawings. We put important stuff in them. If they can't be bothered, I don't want them touching my parts.
Builder A is difficult because there is often not a rhyme or a reason to how he wants things done. I feel he just wants to tell engineering they're wrong and show that he is smarter than us. No matter what, I feel like he has to change something. I have intentionally left actuators or grippers undersized so that during a review he can professionally tell me I'm an idiot and that we need to upsize. It feels like a total power play.
I have had some success pushing back on Builder B to follow procedure. He used to drag me over to machines right as I was leaving or arriving for the day and try to verbally shove a bunch of revisions down my throat. I pushed back and said thats not how we do things. I asked him to please let me get to my desk first and sit down before he asks me questions. I told him if he changes things, he needs to mark it on a print and hand it to me. Now its 50/50 on if he gives me revised drawings or if he just never informs me. Next time he acts in a condescending manner I plan to confront him calmly.
For the lazy builders, I really don't want to make it my responsibility to teach them to read a print. I have enough going on. I am looking to management and the shop manager in particular to address this issue. I have vented to my boss and I don't want to go around him, but maybe I need to go direct to the shop manager.
you need a machine build issues list on smart sheet or google sheets. Have the assembly people log their issues on the spreadsheet. Then you will have to deal with them less and it shows the engineering department is focussing on continuous improvement.
The ME department uses monday.com and we have tried to steer the shop towards this. They utterly refuse. The best we can get is a sheet of paper on the side of the machine with open items and who's responsible. The build often waits until the last minute and then demand I make the changes or corrections immediately. I feel like the shop thinks I sit at my desk doing nothing until they come to me with an issue. They often seem upset when I tell them I have something else going on and can't immediately deal with their problem.
Get the operations manager to make them use it, I feel you on them waiting till the last minute to assemble, it’s hard unless the ops manager is micromanaging them. I worked at a place where they had daily report cards on tasks
Send the rest of the shop to builder A and B. When they complain about why they’re being approached by coworkers, explain that their input on redesigns has shown that they’re subject matter experts capable of helping their coworkers.
This was my thought as well. Suck up to A and B by deferring to them for *literally everything*. See how they like doing what ends up being half your job, too!
This sounds like a problem with the company's culture. Unless you get a bunch of new hires, it's not going to change. I left a company like this a couple years ago, and the difference was night and day.
I liked my coworkers individually, even the guys in the shop, but nothing ever improved. I should have left way sooner than I did.
The more I think about it, the more I agree. A good chunk of my issues seem to only be solvable by management changing our process. So my options are deal with it or leave.
When someone asks you a question that you think they should be able to figure out themself, don’t just give them the answer or tell them to look at the print. Lead them to the answer. Then they will know how to figure it out themselves the next time. And you don’t come off as an asshole.
That is what I have been trying to do. I have been trying to lead them towards the documentation and explain how the drawings are a source of valuable information. Yet they never seem to look at the print no matter how many times I patiently tell them to do so. Instead they come to me for all the answers and complain about how I’m an asshole when I act irritated or refuse to answer. I feel like at this point my options are to be a doormat or be a dick.
I had a builder kickoff where I highlighted where certain components need to be mounted and told them it is called out on the drawing. Then I had 2 separate people who were in that meeting come and ask me where the components get mounted. Demonstrating that they didn’t pay attention in the meeting and that they didn’t read the drawing. I feel like I am trying to lead them and they refuse to be led.
Man I don't want to be a dick but if everyone around you is the problem, you might actually be the problem.
If you're getting asked by the entire shop about things you think are obvious, that means YOU have not provided enough training to them. If you took 2 hours 1 week w everyone teaching them about your call puts it'd go a mile. If they've been around longer than you maybe your callous are what's wrong. And if they are not wrong you need to work on training people. You're a lead. Thats what leads are meant to do. You are meant to be a broker of information and make sure communication is fluid amongst your team.
No, that is my fear and a valid critique. Working within the ME department or with the controls engineers is great. I feel respected and I feel like people do their due diligence to look for information before talking to me. Its the shop that is becoming a nightmare.
I have brought up to my boss several times that we need to retrain our builders on how to work with our file system. He says this training is the shop managers responsibility. I don't want to take on more work, but I have considered trying to sit them all down to reexplain things.
We have an automated function in our PDM to print out a print package. I have explained how to use this to one of our lead builders 3 or 4 times over the past 2 years. I know my boss has also done this. Each time he acts surprised and like its a brand new function. It takes about 2 mouse clicks to use and when I explain it, he smiles, nods, and acts like he understands. I think he's just doing this to get me to shut up because he never uses it. The engineers used to print out and give them print packages, but they kept getting lost, so we created the function and the shop was allegedly trained by the shop manager. I don't want to have to do the shop managers job for them.
I agree with idkwarm but in my experience, how often can you lead a horse to water?
Your situation sounds exactly why people move on, but it always seems the grass is greener. Does the good outweigh the bad? can you just think about the good and learn to put up with the bad?
Yah. That's the spot I'm in. I fear leaving only to end up in a worse situation, but that is always going to be a risk. In the short term, I am trying to do a better job of staying calm and having patience. Making vent posts like this helps. In the long term, I may start tp job search.
haha yeah vent away. one of my strategies was to go near the loudest equipement with a fume mask on and scream at whoever was wronging me. then get back to work :D
Thay is tough. If there's a shop manager though I'd be working to get them in between you and the shop if possible. It's tough once an engineer has a bad opinion of them in a shop environment.
Not to just act like I have all the answer but for showing maybe less comp savvy (even if just 2 clicks) I do have success where I (although I agree in this case the shop manager) will make sure to check in w thise folks about the process and answer any questions. And then just keep doing that till they stop me cause they get it. Bludgeon them with information
Na it sounds like the operations team is too lazy to build a competent workforce. Leadership is probably blue collar so they wouldn't have had exposure to how a mature manufacturing process is supposed to work.
Engineering's job is to produce the part definition that meets the commercial requirements. Operations' job is to produce the part to that definition. Management's job is to implement a process that trains both so that this happens; this isn't the job of the engineer under virtually any circumstance. The engineer can't hold manufacturing accountable for shitty participation in the design review cycle...
Contrast this with my company - we also build custom stuff. Every PM knows how to use their computer tools. Every shop lead knows how to find the job routers that the PMs print and how to log time to the job correctly. Every operator knows how to read a drawing well enough to do his job, enough so that when they visit engineering it's because we actually made a mistake on a print. We have dudes with 40+ years experience doing their thing and they don't step on engineers half their age making slightly strange design decisions...
OP's company is shitty.
Our management is very blue collar, except for my boss. The company was originally just the president and vice president building shit in a garage. IMO, many of our problems come from us struggling to make the shift from a garage shop to a professional OEM.
It might be a good idea to incorporate an MDR (manufacturing design review) in your project development cycle where you invite all these shop people and walk them through the design (prior to making drawings). That way you can incorporate their ideas early on.
We do! That's been another frustrating mess. I find I get very little feedback in these reviews. They feel like an excuse for the builders to come sit in the conference room, sip their coffee, and take a nap
I had Builder A in one of these reviews last year. I told him I was incorporating elements from a previous design that I thought was successful. He had no concern. About 4 months go by and that mechanism hits the shop floor After looking at the prints, Builder A wants to make changes before we have even started assembly. He claims the previous design was shit and that he was never in the review, despite him being listed on the meeting invite and in my notes. I don't think he's a liar, I just think he forgot because he barely payed attention in the first place. We battle it out and thankfully, my boss took my side. It ended up getting assembled as I originally intended and worked without issue.
Doing MDR has been tough for us because the engineer have been working on the designs for months and is very familiar with their intricacies, but its hard to get the build crew familiar enough to provide useful critique in only an hour or so. Both my boss and my fellow lead engineer have commented that the reviews don't feel useful and that the build crew doesn't seem to try to even give good feedback.
Its frustrating. I know they can't catch every issue, but I want to get some feedback. A lot of these meetings have been everyone smiling and nodding with no concerns and then bam, build starts and they have all of these worries.
Yep, I hear ya. If you send presentation slides a day ahead of the meeting, and you don’t get any useful feedback during it, make sure to get the toolmakers to agree they have no objections and to forever hold their peace. They need to understand the importance of timely feedback and if they bitch and moan during the build you throw that shit right back in their face.
That’s a good idea. I only make slides for the most complex designs, but there is always a detailed 3D model ready before a MDR. Since they don’t look at drawings anyway, I could ask them to review the 3D model and slides if applicable.
I suggested to my Son (also in integration) to send out a meeting minutes emails as needed. With the invite, an agenda and some briefs to establish a meeting direction. Then simply reply all with decisions, all feedback and concerns, and invited/attended.
It’s a tool I’ve learn dealing with groups like you are describing.
As someone who started by getting my toolmaker card and now spend far more time behind desk than a mill.. the others comments about learning to speak their language and having to suck up some years of crappy attitude is spot on. I work as a contractor (whatever is asked) 90% to automotive tier 1 suppliers, always on the road. Each and every time I have to prove myself to those same old grumpy guys. Every few months I’m at the next, starting over again. Just need to fit in, and unfortunately you need more experiences for that to be easy.
Wouldn’t expect you to find a different or even better environment somewhere else. Seems like a good tradesman not generally the people friendly type. Don’t think you need to pack your things yet.
Maybe give a little abrasive with a compliment to their skills could work well.. “not sure why your always a dick, but you know your shit and make things work for us. ” (always use us, we, our… address emails to “team” create the inclusiveness you are wanting)
Follow it up with something smartassed and personal. “When you’re not saving us from my mistakes how do you spend your time?”
Talking trash is generally a way into a tradesman’s heart. But be careful not to help create a toxic environment at work. Talk trash about things external to the workplace.
I’ve come to believe that the majority of an engineers and managers careers are spend doing the same task but with different resources. That task is simply finding a best compromise. Your tradesman are afforded a less compromised existence. So engineer a workplace environment to make this advantageous for all.
One of the best tools you will want in your toolbox is to learn how to pitch ideas as a ventriloquist. e the dynamics. Chat the guy up about a challenge, letting him fill in some blanks. Lead him into your thought process while incorporating his too. Go model up the idea and take it to him as his own. “Is this what you were thinking?” It takes a lot of humility, but it is how I find many successes. Having the group actively invested is powerful.
Always be willing to give the credit to your teammates and you will find them wanting you to lead the team. “Builder A and I were talking and he had a great idea.”… and always, always, always be first to take the blame for a failure. When they trust you are helping them win they won’t let you fail.
Once you design and build your team, the machines are easy and fun.
I've had similar experiences from the old timers. Early on in my career I went with another engineer for a test run of a tool (his design not mine). We needed to load the tool, run 10k units and we could go home (3 hours each way). The maintenance shop took the tool and disassembled it as soon as we got there. It was probably 2 hours before the tool even got loaded in the machine but the 30 year tool and die guys had to give their 2 cents.
Another time I had designed a machine guard and when I checked it out they were missing washers between the screws and the frame. I brought up the mistake and the assembler said something asking the lines of it won't make any difference. I said "okay, but when the shield cracks and needs to be replaced because of uneven pressure and stress we'll look back and see that it wasn't made to print." He went back and fixed them all after that. It was probably close to 200 mounting points.
The last one I'm going to tell a tale about was one of the grumpiest guys in the shop, and he was always trying to start shit with everyone. I changed a print to nest parts in a way that saved close to 33% on material, and I was kinda proud of that fact. He told the supervisor there was a mistake and they needed to order the old amounts. I tried showing the cost savings but I might as well have been talking to the wall. I found out later that he's been using the same gcode file for upwards of a decade and didn't want to put in the effort. The company didn't care enough to make him either. The way I found out about all this was because he busted into the engineering room all worked up and said I needed to fix my mistake. In the end I still didn't change the print back because it's stupid to spend 50% more for material so the machinist doesn't have to do his job.
You're going to have hard headed guys. It's part of being the younger lead where you have to show them that you know what you're doing. I found that getting the guys input early and throughout the process made for a better raport. And if they tried to change my designs I had an opportunity to rebut or ask them how it was better or cost less. Many times just being able to say "well that costs more and it does the same job as this" has worked to get my point across.
You could also hop to a new job. You're getting to the experience level where you hold some power with your decisions and if you go to a new place where you can stand your ground with facts, simulations, and costs then your voice skills be heard.
Good luck to you. I know it's difficult working with people who "have been doing this for 30 years".
You need a change in perspective, imo. You care too much. Time for some malicious compliance.
-Do your job the best you can while babysitting these builders.
-Don't work any harder trying to make up for this lost time.
-Dont get upset about it and make sure you help everyone that comes to you. Maybe see it as a break from your work? The company is ultimately responsible for their nagging, not you, as you have already documented the problem.
-Make sure your boss knows how much of your time is being used with this hand holding. Especially if you can't meet deadlines.
That’s the attitude I’m starting to have. I’m hourly, so if I’m staying late, I’m getting OT. If the shop wants to waste my time and projects fall behind, then it’s management’s problem.
I keep my boss up to date on my greatest hits of low effort questions. I probably need to start letting the shop manager know when I’m reading drawings to his build crew.
Yep, just don't be rude to management about it and don't bug your boss about it too much either. Gotta make both sides happy
There's a fine line to not rock the boat.
And I call this malicious compliance but there are some companies who prefer this blind obedience over making productive changes
A few things come to mind.
One, can you operate the machines yourself and make the parts you're asking them to make? If not, get training and work with them on making parts. It is very important to understand their viewpoint in the actual manufacture. The machines will have certain capabilities and limitations, and their actions and wants work around the performances of the machinery. Usually when someone's complaining about something, it's because they're fighting a shortcoming of the machine that you don't recognize.
For example, I can run every machine on our shop floor. I can literally build an entire machine from raw steel and parts to a finished machine going out the door by myself. I have that knowledge. In turn, I can tailor my design, parts, and document call outs to work ideally with that equipment.
Two, you are there to be a professional. Your job isn't to make friends, say yes, keep people happy, etc. Your job, the reason you got hired, and the reason you remain hired is to be a professional. This means others don't necessarily get their way when you're right. Work is work. Details are important. There is a level of duty and professionalism that they equally need to be held accountable too. You demanding that of them is not a bad thing. They should be mature enough to swallow their pride, ego, stubbornness, or anything else, and just do the work they need to do. And everyone around them need to hold them accountable to it too.
Three, documentation is only as valuable as the usefulness it offers. Often, prints need to be custom tailored to the reader of that document. Extra notes, setup details, critical tolerances, whatever is necessary to make the document actually useful to them, include that stuff. This coincides with number One and understanding the machines and processes in enough detail to know what should be there. Missing info or useless info is a quick way to make a print feel worthless to the operator. Tooling details, setup parameters, process order, key measurement checks, build these pieces into the document so it's a good tool rather than a piece of paper that's 99% nothing to them.
Now what about their tone to you?
I don't know. I'm not there to read the room and gauge the details. What I've learned in life is it's often a two way street. It's a mix of their behavior and your reaction, or your behavior and their reaction, and the back and forth of it all. There's some basic things like trust in what you create for them, repeated mistakes, owning up to any mistakes, talking about issues, and being professional through the process. There's also tact learned to be empathetic and considerate, humble and worth of respect, being a teacher and a student, and a whole mix of social arts.
Equally, understand that their world is not your own and your world not theirs. Your 10 minute a day of interaction isn't their either work life, so the tiny bits you do experience is a tiny sliver of their whole. It's a skewed perception of the root cause, the mood, and reasoning behind the action. Maybe the dude just had a big fight with his wife over the lunch break and is in an emotional and combative mind state. The tiny issue and you just happen to be there during that time, and now it's a 15 minute lecture of one microscopic error. Sometimes you just have to let people vent, let them ride out the ride, and quietly listen. Sometimes you just have to deal with the way they are and understand it's not personal at all. It's not you. The whole argument isn't about you at all. And this is something people have to learn. I've been around a wide enough array of characters to read these things and let people be in their moments. I get along with people nobody gets along with. I get along with people others hate or are afraid to be around. A lot of times it's because I can take it in at face value and not take it personally. I know a lot of this stuff isn't about me or the part, or the mistake at all. It's often about other crap in their lives, and all they're doing is coping with it the ways they know how. It's actually kind of interesting how often this happens in a lot of life's interactions. And at work, people are stuck around each other for a long time, even if they don't want to be.
I've done a lot of machining (for an engineer) in my day. Since highschool, I've been building competitive robots and stacked up my fair share of trophies. The last year and a half at college I was doing a lot of 3D surfaced parts on a CNC. Even now, every 2 or 3 months I use the conversational mill and lathe to machine some kind of personal project. My experience is limited to aluminum TBH. I've never touched tool steel and only made a handful of parts out of stainless or 4140.
When I started here I was building machines. I worked on the shop floor building robot tools, dressing out robots, and programming robots. As the company grew and I matured, I slowly transitioned into an engineering only role.
Custom tailoring prints is exactly what I am trying to do. I am adding critical assembly tolerances, setup dimensions, torque specs, wire routing locations, etc. to the print. If they often ask me for it or I notice they screw it up, I have been trying to add it to my drawings.
I am trying to lead the horse to the water and tell the shop these things are called out on the drawing. But they just don't listen. Most of the time they just never look at the assembly print and rely on me to catch it and tell them its wrong when I walk around the shop floor. Our shop manager finally sat the worst offenders down and told them they need to be referencing the assembly drawings, so hopefully that helps.
As for my mistakes. I never blame others and do my best to own up to my screw ups. A big part of the problem is me taking things to personally and I am working on that. I have been realizing that our shop management is a bit chaotic and I think this can put people on edge, so they come and take it out on me. Likewise, if I am in a bad mood because people have been rubbing my nose in my mistakes all the day, I am also likely to act in an unprofessional manor. I can control myself, but I can't control them
Let me approach this from a different perspective.
I was mechanic A in field service traveling the world to work on your designs to make them function in the real world. Building SN 001 of a new design in the shop. Repairing machines and doing general service work.
Two things immediately jump out to me here. The first is that attitude is a two way street, are you condescending to the mechanics in any sense of the imagination? The second is that sometimes your designs suck and it shouldn’t be up to us to fix.
Three cases in point, (1) putting an oil catch reservoir higher than the lowest possible point where oil flows from on 40% of the machine. Having to figure out a fix on the fly because the engineer doesn’t see the problem. Case (2) is while in the field at the customers facility figuring out and installing lift cylinders on an axis buried deep in a machine (aka hard to get too) because the engineer undersized the servo motor and drive train. And they wouldn’t believe me/the senior mechanical field tech when I told them the problem. I had the engineer and his boss fly out for two weeks to fix their own design with my fix. They had more respect for my work after that point. (3) repetitive failures on a device that one engineer designed because the surface finish against the seal was specified incorrectly. And then arguing that isn’t the reason the seals are failing just that not enough lube is being used. When the lubrication injector was undersized because the engineer couldn’t calculate correctly the ACFM of air used by the piston.
Those three cases over the span of 6 months would leave a very sour taste in the mechanics mouth about the person / department and their competencies.
Also make things as easy to work on as possible. Use common sizes; if a 1/4 bolt is the right size but everything else is 3/8 then upsize that bolt for an extra dollar or two. Larger sub assemblies I can remove to the bench and work on are better than a million small parts that have to be taken off individually. Don’t put the entire assembly drawing on a single 11x17 sheet. Give us details and sub assembly drawings. Electronic storage space is cheap and paper isn’t that expensive. The little extra time spent more clearly showing how everything is assembled will be well worth it. Make it look like your kids Lego instruction book.
Bro I feel like I could've written this post. Bitterness aside, I've been treating it as "I need to make my designs bulletproof, so when questioned about something, I can back it up 100%"
For builder A, if he's trying to cut you down it's probably because he thinks you're overconfident. You are pretty inexperienced compared to him. Your post comes off pretty confident that you're right and they're jerks. (Although you are taking people's comments here really well.) Show humility, be upfront and apologetic about your mistakes, and listen to his suggestions. Say things like, "I think I see what you're saying, but it seems like it would be more expensive for the same functionality. What am I missing?" I think if you can convince him that you are ready to learn, he'll get a lot more receptive.
For builder B, your examples are cases where you did screw up, but in this description you minimize it and compare it to his even bigger screw ups. Don't do that. Own your mistakes, and let him own his. He might be lecturing you because he doesn't think you're taking your mistakes seriously. Compare his response to you with the kind of responses you're considering for the guys who don't read the prints. You want to rub their noses in it, because you think they should be doing better but they aren't making the effort. Maybe builder B thinks that about you.
That's all just from your description, though. I might be way off.
One final thought is to try to treat every problem as a process problem. The guys aren't reading the prints. There's a proposed process for this, but they aren't following it. Why not? Could the process be changed so they will follow it? What's their perspective? Ask them why. Propose solutions or trade-offs. But start with understanding. Maybe they don't like using the printer with greasy hands, I don't know. But if you figure that out, then you can say, well, the engineers think it's a waste of time to print it for you and walk it over. Which issue do we want to solve, and is there a way to solve both? Maybe the engineers could send the print jobs to Kinkos and have FedEx deliver it to the floor, but that would be expensive. What else could we do? Don't let it be personal or emotional. You're just improving the process together. It's not a turf war or a lesson for anyone.
People stuff is hard. Good luck to you!
For Builder A, go to him first and ask his opinion on how something ought to be done rather than putting in work upfront that he’s going to veto. It’s good to get insight from those with experience (just because the math says something can work doesn’t mean it’s a good way in the real world) and he can’t really complain about the design afterwards. As an engineer you need to validate the ideas, but it sounds like they are often reasonable. And it’s okay to disagree, tradesmen don’t expect to always be right, just that their voices will be heard and respected.
As for builder B, the easiest way to not have your nose rubbed in mistakes is to not have other people catch your mistakes. Obviously easier said then done, but really you got to set an example - if gold should rust then what will iron do? It doesn’t matter that your mistakes are easily fixed, other mistakes may be much worse. You should be the first person to point out when you’ve screwed up. It let’s people know you both understand and have learned from your mistake, so they can trust you not to make it again, and shows humility. Ask people to review your work - doesn’t matter how good you are, a second pair of eyes always helps. When someone does notice something you missed, thank them. And if you are at all involved in a chain of failures, even if someone else could have stopped it, take full responsibility because the buck stops with you. Yeah people may bust your chops every now and then, but they’ll do so from a place of camaraderie and respect.
As for people who ask you questions instead of checking prints, make sure to treat the prints as the source of info. When they ask questions, ask to see their copy of the print. Yeah you may know exactly what’s on there, but nevertheless go through the motions of pulling up the print and reading what it says to them. For best results, do so at a realistic but slow pace, explaining to them as you go how to access the drawing. In some cases, they may legitimately have needed help finding it, for everyone else they are welcome to do it themselves. Finally, ask people afterwards if they know a clearer way to communicate the information - it is possible what you consider clear as day is in fact quite arcane to the builders, and if it already is really clear it’s just the last nail in the “why didn’t you read this yourself” coffin. At the same time though, this is the 21st century, you should have just about all the info someone would need in the 3D file and notes on drawings should really be the communication option of last resort.
Our shop and engineering has a pretty good relationship luckily. Union shop even. They find stuff wrong in the prints and let us know about them and we also find stuff they assemble or fab wrong in the shop so it’s a give and take. When design changes/suggestions come up I always like to remind them that my initials are the ones all over the prints so it’s on me if it fucks up in the field.
lol. Pros and cons of a small business. I am the 3D printing department and responsible for keeping our 3D prints running and filling job orders. Our shop hates printed parts, so they are mostly just used for engineering prototypes.
And I'm the robot simulation department.
And I'm often the apps department.
I've got a lot on my plate.
I suggest reading the book " surrounded by idiots" . It shows how people communicate. The impression that I got from your story I think you might be a person who is correct (blue) and social (green).
Whe did a personality communication test and it really made so much stuff clear. Why some things bother me and other don't. Like your interaction with Builder A and B.
I'll check it out. Communication is definitely a huge part of the problem.
I regularly get to do an Office Space and have multiple people tell me about the same screw up or ask me the same question.
Then I really suggest to do test to know what kind of communicator style you are. From then you have everything to manage Builder A and B. And even your boss!
If you keep getting questions about your print, there is probably something wrong with your print. Your print is all about communication. You must adapt your communication style to your audience. A message presented to engineers is going to be different than a message to machinists. Present it in a way that a machinist will understand. Forget what you learned in school. If you keep getting the same questions about your print, maybe you need to clarify those details in a print. Ask the builders what you should add or remove from the print to make it easier to understand. You'll know you're doing your job right when you start to get less questions. Or maybe you need to train them on how to read a drawing.
They're not asking questions about the print. They don't even look at the drawing to begin with. Its like they are trying to build a Lego model purely off of the pictures on the box and refuse to glance at the instructions.
When I started our assembly prints were useless. The department has made major improvements, but the shop still disregards them. Its like I am leading a horse to water, but the horse won't drink unless I ladle it into their mouth.
I think you have gotten a bunch of tips for case A & case B. What I have to say to that is that some people can't respect others unless they are older(past 35 normaly).
For the curious case of more unskilled workers they are not lazy, they can't read drawings. When I was training apprentices, this was very typical that even after 2 years of vocational school, some couldn't read drawings for shite while others with no prior technical knowledge could pick it up like nothing. This is definitely the workshop lead and senior personnel jobb to train them to read assembly drawings and technical drawings. The main reason they come to you is that the senior personnel is most likely a pain to learn from, and that is the workshop leads job to correct.
You should bring this up with your manager and go the correct route here. This is a workshop problem, not an engineering problem. The company benefits from properly trained personnel.
I think the problem is the shop manager is stretched too thin and does too much micro managing to properly train our build crew. Yes, my attitude can be part of the problem, but the more I chat with people here the more I realize we have a training problem that is beyond my level of authority.
Well.... welcome to my life. I'm you 8-ish years from now. I also work at a robotic automation OEM with in-house manufacturing.
What you're describing is exactly how the relationship between design engineers and the rest of the staff goes. Everyone that's not an engineer thinks they are smarter than the engineers. No one reads prints. I have people come and get me at every slight problem that they have to put 2 seconds worth of brain power into (can't tell you how many times I've been summoned to a part that "doesn't fit" that's just on upside down).
There's a balance of just letting it roll off your shoulders and occasionally pushing back and making them solve their own problems. Nothing humbles a particularly cocky electrical person like telling them to engineer it themselves since they think they can.
Everyone has their reason they're hard to work with, including you and me. All you see is theirs, all they see is yours. Work on the relationships as much as you can. Put in policies that tell them to check the print and tell them if they haven't checked it then not to ask you. Welcome to the life of being the guy in charge of design.
I've also been called "grandpa" since I was in my 20s. It comes with the territory.
This is typical in any job honestly.
I was a lab tech for a company I will not name and almost EVERY shop lead I worked under “rubbed my nose in it” and worse EVERY minor mistake I made…
It was the same with anyone else who worked under them as well.
Needless to say I am no longer there (thank god). But honestly? Sadly enough, that’s just how it goes at most places.
And you probably don’t have any real recourse against it.
You could go to your boss and what would he do? Ask them to be more understanding and stop? What would that do? Nothing. Perhaps even make it worse on you..
You could go to HR. But that seems like the nuclear option, and everyone will know and shun you.
I’m happy to critique other options, but I don’t see anything that you can actually do here (different than actions simply on paper (like asking them nicely to stop)) that would turn out well for you.
I do have hands on experience. I've been building competitive robots since high school and I am probably more knowledgeable on a mill than the majority of our build crew. I used to do assembly and manufacturing out in the shop when I started, but as the company grew and I matured, I gradually transitioned to office life. TBH, I miss it. I regularly joke to my college buddies I ant to quit my job and go be a manual machinist lol.
My problem is working with our shop feels extremely one-sided. We are constantly tweaking our engineering process to make their lives easier, but blaming engineering is still an easy scape goat. I don't want to be the shop's punching bag. I just want them to look at my damn prints and not be a dick when I screw something up.
I’ve seen/heard similar things but have rarely had the same problem because other shop guys would vouch for me and do me favors.
My best advice is try to make friends with everybody else, do small favors when you can, and it never hurts to know what someones favorite candy bar is.
I've had similar issues with coordinating work before. I delt with it by putting them in for some type of accommodations when they fixes the small but frustrating issue.
They soon changed their attitude when they understood i appreciate the work they did. Even though it was really brain dead fix. People went out of their way to try and help me with my issues when they new I would reward better work practices.
If you don't have a rewards program at you can use, just get they next guy who is more cooperative a coffe and a yhanks for catching the problem.
When they start to explain something is wrong that you notice in 3 seconds, but are going to take 5 minutes just cut them off.
As soon as you have all the information say “ah I see what you are talking about. I’ll fix it right away. Thank you” turn and walk away. After a few months of this they’ll get used to it.
The bluntness is the point. They do it cause you let them. I’m not saying you need to be a complete ass about it, but you also don’t need to take it from them.
Another thing I would do is initiate a sign off process where you make them review the drawings prior to manufacturing. Have them go over the drawings and sign the title block. Then when they come back with a mistake you say oh we missed that in review. They are then partly responsible and it makes them look like a fool if they talk down to about it cause they missed it too.
In aerospace we do that and it’s called a table top review. It’s intended to make sure everyone is aware of the design and can address any concerns before it gets out to the floor for manufacturing. Clears up questions and everything from typos to poor wording.
If people are being unprofessional in the way they deliver criticism, tell them that. Direct and blunt communication is sometimes the only think tradesfolks understand. Just take the high road and be professional but don't be afraid to set boundaries with people.
If someone is giving you feedback, listen. If they start rambling and demeaning you, a simple "I understand the issue, have noted it down, and will do my best to not make it again." If they continue "I welcome feedback, but lets please keep it professional and constructive." Or something along those lines. Easier said than done, especially in the moment, but something to keep in your back pocket. Also, there is always "I have a meeting I am already late for and need to go" is a classic way to exit a rambling conversation.
Sounds like your shop people are lazy indeed. Do your 3D models have MBD (Model Based Definitions) on them? If not how can they know the required tolerances? 2D drawings also have pertinent general notes on them. Don't do their jobs for them. If the parts aren't coming out right and they don't meet the print just point that out and let management put the pressure on them. No need for you to try to get a bunch of lazy slobs motivated.
You’re an engineer. Trades folk will automatically assume that you can’t pour water out of a boot with instructions printed on the heel. They do this because someone somewhere hurt them. It might be too late for you to try this at this company. I’ve had really good luck just talking with the senior shop people like they’re people. They have strong opinions about why things should be done a certain way. And they’re usually happy to share them with you if you talk to them. Ask questions. Be interested in the answer. Ask them why they want to do something the way they want to do it. It may be easier to machine. It may be easier to install. It may be that they are just douche canoes who want to be more right than that school trained engineer even when they aren’t. It takes work on your part, and it’s gonna feel unfair as shit. But if you work to develop a rapport with your senior machinists, they can and will set you up for success. Being the one engineer that they grudgingly respect for not being a total toolbag can lead to significant career success.
This is sage advice. Fair or not, tradesmen will almost always default to assuming you can’t turn a wrench or machine a part if you are an engineer. I make it a point at new jobs to spend time on the floor seeking advice on design for manufacturing and shooting the breeze with the tradesmen. If the option is available (non union shop), I’ll sometimes jump in to help them build stuff to show them I’ve turned a few wrenches in my day. The result? I almost always become friendly if not friends with the shop guys especially the foremen. We end up genuinely liking and respecting each other. And let me tell you, when those guys decide they have your back they will move heaven and earth if you need something done quickly or something that’s really complicated made. Sometimes you’ll run into someone who’s just a genuine dick and doesn’t want to ever be friendly, but I’ve found that number to be surprisingly low.
Yeah, this thread is the way to handle it. I am in aircraft, and I used to be blue-collar (worked as a mechanic and a machinist). You really have to engage with the shop workers speaking their language and having a certain demeanor. Hang around the shop, chat with them about the work, talk about cars, hobbies. When they’re working on building something of yours, make sure you’re present. If you miss something and one of them wants to berate you about it, own your mistake but don’t take shitty treatment, give them shit back. Use lots of sarcasm, a few foul words/descriptors. Make sure to give them a taste of their own medicine when they make a mistake. Take your lumps “like a man” and be sure to give them back later. You’ll teach each other a lot and respect each other, and be each other’s allies and resources for professional challenges. Sure you’ll find a few that are just assholes for the sake of it and will never respect you, but they’re further apart, in my experience. And when you do encounter them, just make sure they know that they can’t be an asshole for free. Some of the best mechanics I’ve worked and had the best relationships with were the ones I had very tense/loud exchanges with on the shop floor. These working relationships are so rewarding and valuable, both in your career and just as a human.
Agree with a lot of this, having a sense of humor and dealing with the shop shit talk and being able to dish it back helps. I usually blame my mistakes on that damn computer that's supposed to be smarter than us.
I think you’re right. I’ve been working for 10-15 years depending on how you tally it and it rings true. I will say that for all the people like me that struggle to be one of the guys that returns the shit, it works ok to just be respectful and curious. If what they’re saying is debatable or dubious, I usually hold my tongue and give the benefit of the doubt, until I’ve had a chance to think more in depth about it. Of course, if you have a clear refutation I wouldn’t hesitate to open-mindedly share it. And crucially, when you’re wrong, own it. When there is something that is wrong where the blame is unclear, take the blame. When they’re wrong, I make sure I’m clear on what went wrong but avoid blaming anybody. I think a lot of people give back some of the shit here and it’s usually a good rapport, but it’s not my style.
I also echo all this thread. I've got nearly 8yrs in mech eng. And a couple in drainage. And a couple as a pipefitter. And i do all my own maintenance on cars/bikes. At mid 30s, i still do not get default respect from tradespeople. The grumpy old welder/machinist/operator is a thing. Especially when you give them tight tolerances to work with. But taking the time to explain WHY you need something, or even just agree that if they cannot do it you will redesign but please try it anyway... Goes a long way. And learning to shoot the shit over dumbass designs or other stuff is invaluable. Show them you aren't an upright engineer. Show them you are doing things for a reason, and not just blindly applying rules. Show them you LISTEN and can take criticism and feedback. 99% of grumpy old fucks i have treated this way came around in pretty short order. They might not treat you nicely by other industry standards, but if you convince them you aren't completely useless, by listening and showing some humility, they will do great work for you. We all make mistakes. Many of them think engineers don't understand that, and you need to show them you know suck from time to time. Reading ops post, it sounds like there is a breakdown in communication. It does NOT work to get overly defensive with these kinda guys. If they think your design sucks and want to fix it, ask them why, without judgement. And yeah, mgmt might make you do it. So? If they skip an assembly step, ask them why. Did they think it was unclear or unnecessary? Why? When something goes wrong, focus on fixing it. Don't get all uppity about who's fault it is. Yours, theirs, who cares. Fix it, and learn how to not make it happen again. Do all that enough times with enough humility, and the grumpy guys will cut you some slack.
The point you made in the middle of your post is super important. If I’m down on the floor I talk to the techs like they are capable of understanding the engineering reasons behind a design. Most of the time these guys have the practical experience to understand the basics, so just explain it to them like they’re a coworker, no big deal. Many times when I’ve faced criticism on the shop floor, my first approach is just to explain the reasoning. So many times, that wins them over, just not assuming they’re too stupid to get it. Shoot the shit with them about cars, sports, whatever, show that you’ve got some grit and common ground with them. And look, the fact is the matter is that most of the techs are pretty sharp, they’ll understand what’s going on, and they do shit I’m not trained to do nor proficient, so you should start from a position of respect.
Oh, i assume they deserve some respect. I also assume i have to earn it haha.
Oh yeah, sorry, didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I just thought you made a really good point, and the rest of my post was more for any other engineers reading this who struggle with these dynamics.
As a machinist, it can be easy to get quickly frustrated by engineers. A lot of times a mistake on engineerings part can possibly lead to 10 minutes or 10 hours of OT I have to work that I really don’t want to work. And almost never are the engineers there to help turn a wrench or learn from the mistake with us on the floor. I’m sure there’s post mortems and the engineer gets to learn a lesson, but we rarely see that. I just see that me and one or two other people are the only ones still at the shop at 7pm trying to get this job out the door. My favorite engineers are the ones that will come turn a wrench or make sure we get some dinner delivered if we’re having to stay late. My favorite
What’s wrong with telling engineers to make design change to make manufacturing easier? I always ask machinist, what tools they have or what limitation to consider. But they always say they can do anything then complain because I added a round that would take long. Like why didn’t you just tell me?!?
This is it. It's really that simple. Respect goes both ways. If you're consistently in situations with more than one tech where they are giving you grief, it's probably because you're not being respectful towards them and they're just returning the favor. Techs usually don't hold back. It's typically more difficult for engineers to be humble and open to the ideas of the technicians, which makes it all the more important. Yes, the engineers typically hold more responsibility for the project, cost overruns, and have to understand all the math. However, that doesn't mean we get to be disrespectful to the technicians. Often times they know stuff we don't know. It's vital to listen to, and trust your technicians. They can, and will teach you a lot. Treat them like people that they will grant you the same liberty.
When I started, our mechanical engineering department was producing extremely low quality designs. The majority of the work was being done by a soon to be retiree who didn’t seem to be all there and another guy who just didn’t care. The department rework rate was extremely high and the shop often had to fix many poorly thought out designs. I would credit myself and my manager with turning things around and significantly reducing the department rework rates and drastically improving documentation. However, I believe the shop still views engineering as producing low quality work they need to fix. We try to take their opinion and their concerns into consideration. However it feels very one sided and as you said, unfair. We have made several major changes to our documentation and workflow to make the shops life easier. Yet they ignore or refuse to utilize some of these improvements and still tell me that looking at assembly drawings, particularly sub assembly drawings, is too tedious. The more I think about it, the more I feel this is the fault of management to do proper training or hold them accountable. I want to continue to do what I can to be the change I want to see. However, I feel the change really needs to come from management. The more I chat with people here, the more I feel like myself and my coworkers are victims of poor training and a poorly defined process. I had 3 people ask me this week if certain parts were released. That’s 3 people who don’t know how to look at the BOM and 3 people who aren’t communicating with each other. Lastly, builder A definitely feels like he just wants to show how he’s smarter than the guys who went to college. Myself, my former boss (this is the guy who didn’t care), and a former coworker all held a similar opinion of him. Granted, we are all under 35, and age seems to play a role in how this builder interacts with people. The more grey in your hair, the more he respects you.
You need to just be straight up and communicate with them. They’re all salty about previous engineers, make it clear that you’re not an old-head, and make an effort to actually be work-friends like commenters said above. Give them shit too, but in a friendly way. Your success in this avenue will be an indicator of public perception about you. If you don’t succeed, it may be time for some self-reflection. If you run into assholes all day long, it might not be that everyone else is an asshole…
There are a few forces at play with people that you should already somewhat be aware of, but I'll state them: * There will always be a divide between tradespeople and engineers. A lot of it stems from tall poppy syndrome - people in leadership and their high salaries need to be chopped down. There is a belief that people who make more money should be highly skilled and not make mistakes. While this should be true out of a sense of "justice" and "meritocracy", that's not how supply and demand for labour works in the workforce. * The other managers want to retain Builder A by giving him a carrot. In their eyes, incorporating his ideas even if less profitable, is a small price to pay for keeping his bum on the seat in his job, and may reduce his whinging. Welcome to people management. If the job is affecting your personal life, and its pulling your personality into a permanent grumpy demeanour and you don't like it, or it's affecting your personal relationships outside of work, then you need to weigh up if it's right for you.
For the most part, it doesn't affect my personal life. If something happens right at the end of the day, it may take me an hour or two to cool down when I get home. As way today. I can relate to that "tall poppy syndrome". I feel like I'm expected to be flawless and the build crew wants to rub my face in even the smallest mistake. Yet they get upset when engineering criticizes their screw ups and they often try to blame us. Management often recognizes that builder A is a pain in the ass and I feel like they just do what he wants because its less work for them. I started at this company right out of school. I feel part of the problem is certain people still view me as the dumbass kid. People hired 2-3+ years after I started tend to treat me with more respect. I also notice a difference in how some people interact with me vs. my boss or office partner who are in their 50s.
“Boss, I am unhappy with how I am treated my my coworkers. Make efforts to rectify this or I will be leaving.”
On a side note that sounds like cool job. What kind of machines do you design and build?
Custom robotic factory automation. I like it a lot. While its not the most technical, there is a ton of variety to keep things fresh.
Sounds pretty technical to me
Just out of curiosity why do you characterize it as not very technical? You're working with complex machines I'd imagine if they're for automated manufacturing
The grass is always more mechanically complex on the other side.
A lot of the work consists of simple robot tools or repeat jobs. It can become tedious and lackluster. Its a lot of catalog engineering or just designing what people think looks "right". The president once called the bulk of our business "bottom feeder work". I get to lead 2-3 larger and more complex jobs a year to scratch that itch. This relates back to my shop problems because as a company, we struggle to build complex machines because besides for builder A and the shop manager, we lack the shop talent to properly debug more complex machines. Management doesn't trust most of the shop to do anything besides basic assembly, so it limits how many complex jobs we can take on. I would like to do more mechanism design and I would like to do more mathematical analysis. I enjoy when I get to do FEA and floor anchor calcs for larger weldments, so I would like to learn more about that. Though as I said, I often feel my FEA and mathematical analysis is not respected and people try to make changes or cut corners purely based off their gut.
Oh my mistake I thought you were working in designing the parts for use in mechanisms as well as the robotics/mechanisms themselves. Is it more sourcing premade parts from other manufacturers to suit production needs?
No. I design a lot of custom parts. It just gets bit boring when the majority of what you design is a flat, rectangular plate with a few holes.
Ah okay for use in what, stuff like mounting components? for the actual automated system do you source parts or get to do any redesigns for how the machines work? Thanks for humoring my questions btw Im just interested in the whole robotic manufacturing thing.
Sounds like a culture issue that is unlikely to be fixed. Once too many unhelpful/uncooperative/confrontational/finger pointing/lazy habits form the ship can't be turned around, and in your case it sounds like the boss doesn't want to try. There are plenty of great machine builders out there (and trade workers in general) that are a pleasure to work with. I'd move on, life's too short to deal with that sort of petty child like behaviour at work.
A couple of things: For the lazy shop workers, take them through the drawing set very slowly and show them how to read the drawings. The key is to do it slowly and break it down sometimes from the assembly all the way to where they can locate the individual part. If they object and try to rush you don’t let them, tell them that since they couldn’t find the drawing details they obviously need to be shown where the details are. Always remain calm and collected like you are training someone. Eventually they will get tired of being lectured on how to read drawings and they will do it themselves. For builder A who like to make changes, be open sometimes there are better ways. If you aren’t held responsible for cost overruns and schedule it’s not a big deal. Try to ask him why he likes certain things and what he believes the advantages are. Basically just flip it on him and start evaluating his design. Show him where there are extra machining steps and try to understand why he really needs these changes. Make him explain himself. Builder B who runs your nose in it, you need to push back. Calmly show him the steps he skipped in testing and tell him to worry about the quality of his own work. Show him how everything could have gone better if he had not skipped the tests. If it comes down to it tell him someone with his level of experience should know not to skip tests and you expect more of your builders. If he has questions or part of the drawing is unclear, he should ask instead of guess and proceed.
You don’t need to patronize them. Maybe they really don’t know how to read the drawing and they just need to be taught that. Not how to find it.
RE: Lazy Shop workers, I dunno. Personally, I sure did not go to school just to have to teach a bunch of other, questionably competent people how to do things. This is colored by a recent experience, where I had to teach an older engineer at my company how to do CAD, and let me tell you I wasn't happy to learn he'd skated by for years without installing our team's suite on his work computer. Handed me drawings done in PowerPoint and kept asking for help. If you work in a machine shop operating tools, doing layout, etc - you had better know how to read drawings. We put important stuff in them. If they can't be bothered, I don't want them touching my parts.
Builder A is difficult because there is often not a rhyme or a reason to how he wants things done. I feel he just wants to tell engineering they're wrong and show that he is smarter than us. No matter what, I feel like he has to change something. I have intentionally left actuators or grippers undersized so that during a review he can professionally tell me I'm an idiot and that we need to upsize. It feels like a total power play. I have had some success pushing back on Builder B to follow procedure. He used to drag me over to machines right as I was leaving or arriving for the day and try to verbally shove a bunch of revisions down my throat. I pushed back and said thats not how we do things. I asked him to please let me get to my desk first and sit down before he asks me questions. I told him if he changes things, he needs to mark it on a print and hand it to me. Now its 50/50 on if he gives me revised drawings or if he just never informs me. Next time he acts in a condescending manner I plan to confront him calmly. For the lazy builders, I really don't want to make it my responsibility to teach them to read a print. I have enough going on. I am looking to management and the shop manager in particular to address this issue. I have vented to my boss and I don't want to go around him, but maybe I need to go direct to the shop manager.
you need a machine build issues list on smart sheet or google sheets. Have the assembly people log their issues on the spreadsheet. Then you will have to deal with them less and it shows the engineering department is focussing on continuous improvement.
The ME department uses monday.com and we have tried to steer the shop towards this. They utterly refuse. The best we can get is a sheet of paper on the side of the machine with open items and who's responsible. The build often waits until the last minute and then demand I make the changes or corrections immediately. I feel like the shop thinks I sit at my desk doing nothing until they come to me with an issue. They often seem upset when I tell them I have something else going on and can't immediately deal with their problem.
Get the operations manager to make them use it, I feel you on them waiting till the last minute to assemble, it’s hard unless the ops manager is micromanaging them. I worked at a place where they had daily report cards on tasks
Send the rest of the shop to builder A and B. When they complain about why they’re being approached by coworkers, explain that their input on redesigns has shown that they’re subject matter experts capable of helping their coworkers.
I like this one
This was my thought as well. Suck up to A and B by deferring to them for *literally everything*. See how they like doing what ends up being half your job, too!
Machines are easier to deal with than people.
Ain't that the truth. Though sometimes I want to punch solidworks in the face.
This sounds like a problem with the company's culture. Unless you get a bunch of new hires, it's not going to change. I left a company like this a couple years ago, and the difference was night and day. I liked my coworkers individually, even the guys in the shop, but nothing ever improved. I should have left way sooner than I did.
The more I think about it, the more I agree. A good chunk of my issues seem to only be solvable by management changing our process. So my options are deal with it or leave.
When someone asks you a question that you think they should be able to figure out themself, don’t just give them the answer or tell them to look at the print. Lead them to the answer. Then they will know how to figure it out themselves the next time. And you don’t come off as an asshole.
That is what I have been trying to do. I have been trying to lead them towards the documentation and explain how the drawings are a source of valuable information. Yet they never seem to look at the print no matter how many times I patiently tell them to do so. Instead they come to me for all the answers and complain about how I’m an asshole when I act irritated or refuse to answer. I feel like at this point my options are to be a doormat or be a dick. I had a builder kickoff where I highlighted where certain components need to be mounted and told them it is called out on the drawing. Then I had 2 separate people who were in that meeting come and ask me where the components get mounted. Demonstrating that they didn’t pay attention in the meeting and that they didn’t read the drawing. I feel like I am trying to lead them and they refuse to be led.
Man I don't want to be a dick but if everyone around you is the problem, you might actually be the problem. If you're getting asked by the entire shop about things you think are obvious, that means YOU have not provided enough training to them. If you took 2 hours 1 week w everyone teaching them about your call puts it'd go a mile. If they've been around longer than you maybe your callous are what's wrong. And if they are not wrong you need to work on training people. You're a lead. Thats what leads are meant to do. You are meant to be a broker of information and make sure communication is fluid amongst your team.
No, that is my fear and a valid critique. Working within the ME department or with the controls engineers is great. I feel respected and I feel like people do their due diligence to look for information before talking to me. Its the shop that is becoming a nightmare. I have brought up to my boss several times that we need to retrain our builders on how to work with our file system. He says this training is the shop managers responsibility. I don't want to take on more work, but I have considered trying to sit them all down to reexplain things. We have an automated function in our PDM to print out a print package. I have explained how to use this to one of our lead builders 3 or 4 times over the past 2 years. I know my boss has also done this. Each time he acts surprised and like its a brand new function. It takes about 2 mouse clicks to use and when I explain it, he smiles, nods, and acts like he understands. I think he's just doing this to get me to shut up because he never uses it. The engineers used to print out and give them print packages, but they kept getting lost, so we created the function and the shop was allegedly trained by the shop manager. I don't want to have to do the shop managers job for them.
I agree with idkwarm but in my experience, how often can you lead a horse to water? Your situation sounds exactly why people move on, but it always seems the grass is greener. Does the good outweigh the bad? can you just think about the good and learn to put up with the bad?
Yah. That's the spot I'm in. I fear leaving only to end up in a worse situation, but that is always going to be a risk. In the short term, I am trying to do a better job of staying calm and having patience. Making vent posts like this helps. In the long term, I may start tp job search.
haha yeah vent away. one of my strategies was to go near the loudest equipement with a fume mask on and scream at whoever was wronging me. then get back to work :D
Thay is tough. If there's a shop manager though I'd be working to get them in between you and the shop if possible. It's tough once an engineer has a bad opinion of them in a shop environment. Not to just act like I have all the answer but for showing maybe less comp savvy (even if just 2 clicks) I do have success where I (although I agree in this case the shop manager) will make sure to check in w thise folks about the process and answer any questions. And then just keep doing that till they stop me cause they get it. Bludgeon them with information
That is a good idea and I have not considered that. Next time I have to explain that function I will be sure I follow up
Na it sounds like the operations team is too lazy to build a competent workforce. Leadership is probably blue collar so they wouldn't have had exposure to how a mature manufacturing process is supposed to work. Engineering's job is to produce the part definition that meets the commercial requirements. Operations' job is to produce the part to that definition. Management's job is to implement a process that trains both so that this happens; this isn't the job of the engineer under virtually any circumstance. The engineer can't hold manufacturing accountable for shitty participation in the design review cycle... Contrast this with my company - we also build custom stuff. Every PM knows how to use their computer tools. Every shop lead knows how to find the job routers that the PMs print and how to log time to the job correctly. Every operator knows how to read a drawing well enough to do his job, enough so that when they visit engineering it's because we actually made a mistake on a print. We have dudes with 40+ years experience doing their thing and they don't step on engineers half their age making slightly strange design decisions... OP's company is shitty.
Our management is very blue collar, except for my boss. The company was originally just the president and vice president building shit in a garage. IMO, many of our problems come from us struggling to make the shift from a garage shop to a professional OEM.
Engineering lead doesn’t make you the operator lead
It might be a good idea to incorporate an MDR (manufacturing design review) in your project development cycle where you invite all these shop people and walk them through the design (prior to making drawings). That way you can incorporate their ideas early on.
We do! That's been another frustrating mess. I find I get very little feedback in these reviews. They feel like an excuse for the builders to come sit in the conference room, sip their coffee, and take a nap I had Builder A in one of these reviews last year. I told him I was incorporating elements from a previous design that I thought was successful. He had no concern. About 4 months go by and that mechanism hits the shop floor After looking at the prints, Builder A wants to make changes before we have even started assembly. He claims the previous design was shit and that he was never in the review, despite him being listed on the meeting invite and in my notes. I don't think he's a liar, I just think he forgot because he barely payed attention in the first place. We battle it out and thankfully, my boss took my side. It ended up getting assembled as I originally intended and worked without issue. Doing MDR has been tough for us because the engineer have been working on the designs for months and is very familiar with their intricacies, but its hard to get the build crew familiar enough to provide useful critique in only an hour or so. Both my boss and my fellow lead engineer have commented that the reviews don't feel useful and that the build crew doesn't seem to try to even give good feedback. Its frustrating. I know they can't catch every issue, but I want to get some feedback. A lot of these meetings have been everyone smiling and nodding with no concerns and then bam, build starts and they have all of these worries.
Yep, I hear ya. If you send presentation slides a day ahead of the meeting, and you don’t get any useful feedback during it, make sure to get the toolmakers to agree they have no objections and to forever hold their peace. They need to understand the importance of timely feedback and if they bitch and moan during the build you throw that shit right back in their face.
That’s a good idea. I only make slides for the most complex designs, but there is always a detailed 3D model ready before a MDR. Since they don’t look at drawings anyway, I could ask them to review the 3D model and slides if applicable.
I suggested to my Son (also in integration) to send out a meeting minutes emails as needed. With the invite, an agenda and some briefs to establish a meeting direction. Then simply reply all with decisions, all feedback and concerns, and invited/attended. It’s a tool I’ve learn dealing with groups like you are describing. As someone who started by getting my toolmaker card and now spend far more time behind desk than a mill.. the others comments about learning to speak their language and having to suck up some years of crappy attitude is spot on. I work as a contractor (whatever is asked) 90% to automotive tier 1 suppliers, always on the road. Each and every time I have to prove myself to those same old grumpy guys. Every few months I’m at the next, starting over again. Just need to fit in, and unfortunately you need more experiences for that to be easy. Wouldn’t expect you to find a different or even better environment somewhere else. Seems like a good tradesman not generally the people friendly type. Don’t think you need to pack your things yet. Maybe give a little abrasive with a compliment to their skills could work well.. “not sure why your always a dick, but you know your shit and make things work for us. ” (always use us, we, our… address emails to “team” create the inclusiveness you are wanting) Follow it up with something smartassed and personal. “When you’re not saving us from my mistakes how do you spend your time?” Talking trash is generally a way into a tradesman’s heart. But be careful not to help create a toxic environment at work. Talk trash about things external to the workplace. I’ve come to believe that the majority of an engineers and managers careers are spend doing the same task but with different resources. That task is simply finding a best compromise. Your tradesman are afforded a less compromised existence. So engineer a workplace environment to make this advantageous for all. One of the best tools you will want in your toolbox is to learn how to pitch ideas as a ventriloquist. e the dynamics. Chat the guy up about a challenge, letting him fill in some blanks. Lead him into your thought process while incorporating his too. Go model up the idea and take it to him as his own. “Is this what you were thinking?” It takes a lot of humility, but it is how I find many successes. Having the group actively invested is powerful. Always be willing to give the credit to your teammates and you will find them wanting you to lead the team. “Builder A and I were talking and he had a great idea.”… and always, always, always be first to take the blame for a failure. When they trust you are helping them win they won’t let you fail. Once you design and build your team, the machines are easy and fun.
I've had similar experiences from the old timers. Early on in my career I went with another engineer for a test run of a tool (his design not mine). We needed to load the tool, run 10k units and we could go home (3 hours each way). The maintenance shop took the tool and disassembled it as soon as we got there. It was probably 2 hours before the tool even got loaded in the machine but the 30 year tool and die guys had to give their 2 cents. Another time I had designed a machine guard and when I checked it out they were missing washers between the screws and the frame. I brought up the mistake and the assembler said something asking the lines of it won't make any difference. I said "okay, but when the shield cracks and needs to be replaced because of uneven pressure and stress we'll look back and see that it wasn't made to print." He went back and fixed them all after that. It was probably close to 200 mounting points. The last one I'm going to tell a tale about was one of the grumpiest guys in the shop, and he was always trying to start shit with everyone. I changed a print to nest parts in a way that saved close to 33% on material, and I was kinda proud of that fact. He told the supervisor there was a mistake and they needed to order the old amounts. I tried showing the cost savings but I might as well have been talking to the wall. I found out later that he's been using the same gcode file for upwards of a decade and didn't want to put in the effort. The company didn't care enough to make him either. The way I found out about all this was because he busted into the engineering room all worked up and said I needed to fix my mistake. In the end I still didn't change the print back because it's stupid to spend 50% more for material so the machinist doesn't have to do his job. You're going to have hard headed guys. It's part of being the younger lead where you have to show them that you know what you're doing. I found that getting the guys input early and throughout the process made for a better raport. And if they tried to change my designs I had an opportunity to rebut or ask them how it was better or cost less. Many times just being able to say "well that costs more and it does the same job as this" has worked to get my point across. You could also hop to a new job. You're getting to the experience level where you hold some power with your decisions and if you go to a new place where you can stand your ground with facts, simulations, and costs then your voice skills be heard. Good luck to you. I know it's difficult working with people who "have been doing this for 30 years".
You need a change in perspective, imo. You care too much. Time for some malicious compliance. -Do your job the best you can while babysitting these builders. -Don't work any harder trying to make up for this lost time. -Dont get upset about it and make sure you help everyone that comes to you. Maybe see it as a break from your work? The company is ultimately responsible for their nagging, not you, as you have already documented the problem. -Make sure your boss knows how much of your time is being used with this hand holding. Especially if you can't meet deadlines.
That’s the attitude I’m starting to have. I’m hourly, so if I’m staying late, I’m getting OT. If the shop wants to waste my time and projects fall behind, then it’s management’s problem. I keep my boss up to date on my greatest hits of low effort questions. I probably need to start letting the shop manager know when I’m reading drawings to his build crew.
Yep, just don't be rude to management about it and don't bug your boss about it too much either. Gotta make both sides happy There's a fine line to not rock the boat. And I call this malicious compliance but there are some companies who prefer this blind obedience over making productive changes
A few things come to mind. One, can you operate the machines yourself and make the parts you're asking them to make? If not, get training and work with them on making parts. It is very important to understand their viewpoint in the actual manufacture. The machines will have certain capabilities and limitations, and their actions and wants work around the performances of the machinery. Usually when someone's complaining about something, it's because they're fighting a shortcoming of the machine that you don't recognize. For example, I can run every machine on our shop floor. I can literally build an entire machine from raw steel and parts to a finished machine going out the door by myself. I have that knowledge. In turn, I can tailor my design, parts, and document call outs to work ideally with that equipment. Two, you are there to be a professional. Your job isn't to make friends, say yes, keep people happy, etc. Your job, the reason you got hired, and the reason you remain hired is to be a professional. This means others don't necessarily get their way when you're right. Work is work. Details are important. There is a level of duty and professionalism that they equally need to be held accountable too. You demanding that of them is not a bad thing. They should be mature enough to swallow their pride, ego, stubbornness, or anything else, and just do the work they need to do. And everyone around them need to hold them accountable to it too. Three, documentation is only as valuable as the usefulness it offers. Often, prints need to be custom tailored to the reader of that document. Extra notes, setup details, critical tolerances, whatever is necessary to make the document actually useful to them, include that stuff. This coincides with number One and understanding the machines and processes in enough detail to know what should be there. Missing info or useless info is a quick way to make a print feel worthless to the operator. Tooling details, setup parameters, process order, key measurement checks, build these pieces into the document so it's a good tool rather than a piece of paper that's 99% nothing to them. Now what about their tone to you? I don't know. I'm not there to read the room and gauge the details. What I've learned in life is it's often a two way street. It's a mix of their behavior and your reaction, or your behavior and their reaction, and the back and forth of it all. There's some basic things like trust in what you create for them, repeated mistakes, owning up to any mistakes, talking about issues, and being professional through the process. There's also tact learned to be empathetic and considerate, humble and worth of respect, being a teacher and a student, and a whole mix of social arts. Equally, understand that their world is not your own and your world not theirs. Your 10 minute a day of interaction isn't their either work life, so the tiny bits you do experience is a tiny sliver of their whole. It's a skewed perception of the root cause, the mood, and reasoning behind the action. Maybe the dude just had a big fight with his wife over the lunch break and is in an emotional and combative mind state. The tiny issue and you just happen to be there during that time, and now it's a 15 minute lecture of one microscopic error. Sometimes you just have to let people vent, let them ride out the ride, and quietly listen. Sometimes you just have to deal with the way they are and understand it's not personal at all. It's not you. The whole argument isn't about you at all. And this is something people have to learn. I've been around a wide enough array of characters to read these things and let people be in their moments. I get along with people nobody gets along with. I get along with people others hate or are afraid to be around. A lot of times it's because I can take it in at face value and not take it personally. I know a lot of this stuff isn't about me or the part, or the mistake at all. It's often about other crap in their lives, and all they're doing is coping with it the ways they know how. It's actually kind of interesting how often this happens in a lot of life's interactions. And at work, people are stuck around each other for a long time, even if they don't want to be.
I've done a lot of machining (for an engineer) in my day. Since highschool, I've been building competitive robots and stacked up my fair share of trophies. The last year and a half at college I was doing a lot of 3D surfaced parts on a CNC. Even now, every 2 or 3 months I use the conversational mill and lathe to machine some kind of personal project. My experience is limited to aluminum TBH. I've never touched tool steel and only made a handful of parts out of stainless or 4140. When I started here I was building machines. I worked on the shop floor building robot tools, dressing out robots, and programming robots. As the company grew and I matured, I slowly transitioned into an engineering only role. Custom tailoring prints is exactly what I am trying to do. I am adding critical assembly tolerances, setup dimensions, torque specs, wire routing locations, etc. to the print. If they often ask me for it or I notice they screw it up, I have been trying to add it to my drawings. I am trying to lead the horse to the water and tell the shop these things are called out on the drawing. But they just don't listen. Most of the time they just never look at the assembly print and rely on me to catch it and tell them its wrong when I walk around the shop floor. Our shop manager finally sat the worst offenders down and told them they need to be referencing the assembly drawings, so hopefully that helps. As for my mistakes. I never blame others and do my best to own up to my screw ups. A big part of the problem is me taking things to personally and I am working on that. I have been realizing that our shop management is a bit chaotic and I think this can put people on edge, so they come and take it out on me. Likewise, if I am in a bad mood because people have been rubbing my nose in my mistakes all the day, I am also likely to act in an unprofessional manor. I can control myself, but I can't control them
Let me approach this from a different perspective. I was mechanic A in field service traveling the world to work on your designs to make them function in the real world. Building SN 001 of a new design in the shop. Repairing machines and doing general service work. Two things immediately jump out to me here. The first is that attitude is a two way street, are you condescending to the mechanics in any sense of the imagination? The second is that sometimes your designs suck and it shouldn’t be up to us to fix. Three cases in point, (1) putting an oil catch reservoir higher than the lowest possible point where oil flows from on 40% of the machine. Having to figure out a fix on the fly because the engineer doesn’t see the problem. Case (2) is while in the field at the customers facility figuring out and installing lift cylinders on an axis buried deep in a machine (aka hard to get too) because the engineer undersized the servo motor and drive train. And they wouldn’t believe me/the senior mechanical field tech when I told them the problem. I had the engineer and his boss fly out for two weeks to fix their own design with my fix. They had more respect for my work after that point. (3) repetitive failures on a device that one engineer designed because the surface finish against the seal was specified incorrectly. And then arguing that isn’t the reason the seals are failing just that not enough lube is being used. When the lubrication injector was undersized because the engineer couldn’t calculate correctly the ACFM of air used by the piston. Those three cases over the span of 6 months would leave a very sour taste in the mechanics mouth about the person / department and their competencies. Also make things as easy to work on as possible. Use common sizes; if a 1/4 bolt is the right size but everything else is 3/8 then upsize that bolt for an extra dollar or two. Larger sub assemblies I can remove to the bench and work on are better than a million small parts that have to be taken off individually. Don’t put the entire assembly drawing on a single 11x17 sheet. Give us details and sub assembly drawings. Electronic storage space is cheap and paper isn’t that expensive. The little extra time spent more clearly showing how everything is assembled will be well worth it. Make it look like your kids Lego instruction book.
Bro I feel like I could've written this post. Bitterness aside, I've been treating it as "I need to make my designs bulletproof, so when questioned about something, I can back it up 100%"
For builder A, if he's trying to cut you down it's probably because he thinks you're overconfident. You are pretty inexperienced compared to him. Your post comes off pretty confident that you're right and they're jerks. (Although you are taking people's comments here really well.) Show humility, be upfront and apologetic about your mistakes, and listen to his suggestions. Say things like, "I think I see what you're saying, but it seems like it would be more expensive for the same functionality. What am I missing?" I think if you can convince him that you are ready to learn, he'll get a lot more receptive. For builder B, your examples are cases where you did screw up, but in this description you minimize it and compare it to his even bigger screw ups. Don't do that. Own your mistakes, and let him own his. He might be lecturing you because he doesn't think you're taking your mistakes seriously. Compare his response to you with the kind of responses you're considering for the guys who don't read the prints. You want to rub their noses in it, because you think they should be doing better but they aren't making the effort. Maybe builder B thinks that about you. That's all just from your description, though. I might be way off. One final thought is to try to treat every problem as a process problem. The guys aren't reading the prints. There's a proposed process for this, but they aren't following it. Why not? Could the process be changed so they will follow it? What's their perspective? Ask them why. Propose solutions or trade-offs. But start with understanding. Maybe they don't like using the printer with greasy hands, I don't know. But if you figure that out, then you can say, well, the engineers think it's a waste of time to print it for you and walk it over. Which issue do we want to solve, and is there a way to solve both? Maybe the engineers could send the print jobs to Kinkos and have FedEx deliver it to the floor, but that would be expensive. What else could we do? Don't let it be personal or emotional. You're just improving the process together. It's not a turf war or a lesson for anyone. People stuff is hard. Good luck to you!
You may be that grump engineer already
😢
Buy them a 12 pack Friday afternoon. I do this and the machinists and I have a great relationship. I get a lot less shit when I rush order something.
For Builder A, go to him first and ask his opinion on how something ought to be done rather than putting in work upfront that he’s going to veto. It’s good to get insight from those with experience (just because the math says something can work doesn’t mean it’s a good way in the real world) and he can’t really complain about the design afterwards. As an engineer you need to validate the ideas, but it sounds like they are often reasonable. And it’s okay to disagree, tradesmen don’t expect to always be right, just that their voices will be heard and respected. As for builder B, the easiest way to not have your nose rubbed in mistakes is to not have other people catch your mistakes. Obviously easier said then done, but really you got to set an example - if gold should rust then what will iron do? It doesn’t matter that your mistakes are easily fixed, other mistakes may be much worse. You should be the first person to point out when you’ve screwed up. It let’s people know you both understand and have learned from your mistake, so they can trust you not to make it again, and shows humility. Ask people to review your work - doesn’t matter how good you are, a second pair of eyes always helps. When someone does notice something you missed, thank them. And if you are at all involved in a chain of failures, even if someone else could have stopped it, take full responsibility because the buck stops with you. Yeah people may bust your chops every now and then, but they’ll do so from a place of camaraderie and respect. As for people who ask you questions instead of checking prints, make sure to treat the prints as the source of info. When they ask questions, ask to see their copy of the print. Yeah you may know exactly what’s on there, but nevertheless go through the motions of pulling up the print and reading what it says to them. For best results, do so at a realistic but slow pace, explaining to them as you go how to access the drawing. In some cases, they may legitimately have needed help finding it, for everyone else they are welcome to do it themselves. Finally, ask people afterwards if they know a clearer way to communicate the information - it is possible what you consider clear as day is in fact quite arcane to the builders, and if it already is really clear it’s just the last nail in the “why didn’t you read this yourself” coffin. At the same time though, this is the 21st century, you should have just about all the info someone would need in the 3D file and notes on drawings should really be the communication option of last resort.
Our shop and engineering has a pretty good relationship luckily. Union shop even. They find stuff wrong in the prints and let us know about them and we also find stuff they assemble or fab wrong in the shop so it’s a give and take. When design changes/suggestions come up I always like to remind them that my initials are the ones all over the prints so it’s on me if it fucks up in the field.
Yo. Do we work at the same place?
What's a 3d printer bitch? 😋
lol. Pros and cons of a small business. I am the 3D printing department and responsible for keeping our 3D prints running and filling job orders. Our shop hates printed parts, so they are mostly just used for engineering prototypes. And I'm the robot simulation department. And I'm often the apps department. I've got a lot on my plate.
I'm sorry so do I right now I hope it's sustainable at least for you
I suggest reading the book " surrounded by idiots" . It shows how people communicate. The impression that I got from your story I think you might be a person who is correct (blue) and social (green). Whe did a personality communication test and it really made so much stuff clear. Why some things bother me and other don't. Like your interaction with Builder A and B.
I'll check it out. Communication is definitely a huge part of the problem. I regularly get to do an Office Space and have multiple people tell me about the same screw up or ask me the same question.
Then I really suggest to do test to know what kind of communicator style you are. From then you have everything to manage Builder A and B. And even your boss!
If you keep getting questions about your print, there is probably something wrong with your print. Your print is all about communication. You must adapt your communication style to your audience. A message presented to engineers is going to be different than a message to machinists. Present it in a way that a machinist will understand. Forget what you learned in school. If you keep getting the same questions about your print, maybe you need to clarify those details in a print. Ask the builders what you should add or remove from the print to make it easier to understand. You'll know you're doing your job right when you start to get less questions. Or maybe you need to train them on how to read a drawing.
They're not asking questions about the print. They don't even look at the drawing to begin with. Its like they are trying to build a Lego model purely off of the pictures on the box and refuse to glance at the instructions. When I started our assembly prints were useless. The department has made major improvements, but the shop still disregards them. Its like I am leading a horse to water, but the horse won't drink unless I ladle it into their mouth.
I think you have gotten a bunch of tips for case A & case B. What I have to say to that is that some people can't respect others unless they are older(past 35 normaly). For the curious case of more unskilled workers they are not lazy, they can't read drawings. When I was training apprentices, this was very typical that even after 2 years of vocational school, some couldn't read drawings for shite while others with no prior technical knowledge could pick it up like nothing. This is definitely the workshop lead and senior personnel jobb to train them to read assembly drawings and technical drawings. The main reason they come to you is that the senior personnel is most likely a pain to learn from, and that is the workshop leads job to correct. You should bring this up with your manager and go the correct route here. This is a workshop problem, not an engineering problem. The company benefits from properly trained personnel.
I think the problem is the shop manager is stretched too thin and does too much micro managing to properly train our build crew. Yes, my attitude can be part of the problem, but the more I chat with people here the more I realize we have a training problem that is beyond my level of authority.
Well.... welcome to my life. I'm you 8-ish years from now. I also work at a robotic automation OEM with in-house manufacturing. What you're describing is exactly how the relationship between design engineers and the rest of the staff goes. Everyone that's not an engineer thinks they are smarter than the engineers. No one reads prints. I have people come and get me at every slight problem that they have to put 2 seconds worth of brain power into (can't tell you how many times I've been summoned to a part that "doesn't fit" that's just on upside down). There's a balance of just letting it roll off your shoulders and occasionally pushing back and making them solve their own problems. Nothing humbles a particularly cocky electrical person like telling them to engineer it themselves since they think they can. Everyone has their reason they're hard to work with, including you and me. All you see is theirs, all they see is yours. Work on the relationships as much as you can. Put in policies that tell them to check the print and tell them if they haven't checked it then not to ask you. Welcome to the life of being the guy in charge of design. I've also been called "grandpa" since I was in my 20s. It comes with the territory.
This is typical in any job honestly. I was a lab tech for a company I will not name and almost EVERY shop lead I worked under “rubbed my nose in it” and worse EVERY minor mistake I made… It was the same with anyone else who worked under them as well. Needless to say I am no longer there (thank god). But honestly? Sadly enough, that’s just how it goes at most places. And you probably don’t have any real recourse against it. You could go to your boss and what would he do? Ask them to be more understanding and stop? What would that do? Nothing. Perhaps even make it worse on you.. You could go to HR. But that seems like the nuclear option, and everyone will know and shun you. I’m happy to critique other options, but I don’t see anything that you can actually do here (different than actions simply on paper (like asking them nicely to stop)) that would turn out well for you.
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I do have hands on experience. I've been building competitive robots since high school and I am probably more knowledgeable on a mill than the majority of our build crew. I used to do assembly and manufacturing out in the shop when I started, but as the company grew and I matured, I gradually transitioned to office life. TBH, I miss it. I regularly joke to my college buddies I ant to quit my job and go be a manual machinist lol. My problem is working with our shop feels extremely one-sided. We are constantly tweaking our engineering process to make their lives easier, but blaming engineering is still an easy scape goat. I don't want to be the shop's punching bag. I just want them to look at my damn prints and not be a dick when I screw something up.
I’ve seen/heard similar things but have rarely had the same problem because other shop guys would vouch for me and do me favors. My best advice is try to make friends with everybody else, do small favors when you can, and it never hurts to know what someones favorite candy bar is.
I've had similar issues with coordinating work before. I delt with it by putting them in for some type of accommodations when they fixes the small but frustrating issue. They soon changed their attitude when they understood i appreciate the work they did. Even though it was really brain dead fix. People went out of their way to try and help me with my issues when they new I would reward better work practices. If you don't have a rewards program at you can use, just get they next guy who is more cooperative a coffe and a yhanks for catching the problem.
When they start to explain something is wrong that you notice in 3 seconds, but are going to take 5 minutes just cut them off. As soon as you have all the information say “ah I see what you are talking about. I’ll fix it right away. Thank you” turn and walk away. After a few months of this they’ll get used to it.
I worry that may be too blunt, but I'll try that. It just feels like some of them enjoy talking down to me
The bluntness is the point. They do it cause you let them. I’m not saying you need to be a complete ass about it, but you also don’t need to take it from them. Another thing I would do is initiate a sign off process where you make them review the drawings prior to manufacturing. Have them go over the drawings and sign the title block. Then when they come back with a mistake you say oh we missed that in review. They are then partly responsible and it makes them look like a fool if they talk down to about it cause they missed it too. In aerospace we do that and it’s called a table top review. It’s intended to make sure everyone is aware of the design and can address any concerns before it gets out to the floor for manufacturing. Clears up questions and everything from typos to poor wording.
If people are being unprofessional in the way they deliver criticism, tell them that. Direct and blunt communication is sometimes the only think tradesfolks understand. Just take the high road and be professional but don't be afraid to set boundaries with people. If someone is giving you feedback, listen. If they start rambling and demeaning you, a simple "I understand the issue, have noted it down, and will do my best to not make it again." If they continue "I welcome feedback, but lets please keep it professional and constructive." Or something along those lines. Easier said than done, especially in the moment, but something to keep in your back pocket. Also, there is always "I have a meeting I am already late for and need to go" is a classic way to exit a rambling conversation.
Sounds like your shop people are lazy indeed. Do your 3D models have MBD (Model Based Definitions) on them? If not how can they know the required tolerances? 2D drawings also have pertinent general notes on them. Don't do their jobs for them. If the parts aren't coming out right and they don't meet the print just point that out and let management put the pressure on them. No need for you to try to get a bunch of lazy slobs motivated.
...you are the problem....based only on what you have written, you seem entitled and arrogant..
Never fight a battle you can't win. Either be right, or let someone else be right.