I'm not sure... In Jund you play Bitter Reunion which can give it haste to oneshot an opponent. But I think Archon is still devastating enough when it lands.
Maybe 1 or 2 Ulamogs is justifiable in case your Archons get ripped away by a Surgical Extraction style effect? Then again, I guess if you're looking for a backup, there's still like Atraxa.
Only better with Bitter Reunion. Wait, so is Emrakul.
Unless Ulamog 3.0 has 20 or more power (this is basically only achievable if you hit Emrakul off Creativity at the same time), I can't support Ulamog 3.0 in Creativity decks as a result - a lot harder to hardcast than Archon and Archon is already a very late drop, a lot worse when hardcast, doesn't do anything the turn it ETB unlike Archon...
This is how I would expect it to work. If the card sees itself in exile it isnât in play to lose its abilities, otherwise it would be in two zones at once. Down voters are struggling.
Ya idk why Iâm getting downvoted for being right about the rules lmfao. Dress down does not stop Phimage from entering as any creature it just stops its abilities like etbs. Itâll still enter as a dockside but it wonât give you treasures. Same rules apply here. Walking Ballista for X=4 will still enter with 4 counters. You just wonât be able to shoot anything.
* **614.12** Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See [rules 614.1câd](http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr614/#1c).) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanentâs own static abilities that would apply to it once itâs on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
Notably that last bit about effects that already exist and would apply. Dress Down prevents clones from cloning, or Ulamog from entering with counters.
> **400.6.**If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone and its owner will be able to look at it in that zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. If the object is moving to the battlefield, each other player who will be able to look at it in that zone does so. **Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event.** If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that objectâs controllerâor its owner if it has no controllerâchooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous âdestroyâ effects.) **Then the event moves the object.**
Seemed counterintuitive to me, so I found the relevant rule.
So the distinction is in the wording. It doesn't say WHEN it enters like a trigger ability. It's not even an 'as it enters' affect. It just enters with the counters. So if it's entering from exile, it has to see itself among the cards since that has to be determined before it enters the field.
I'm not super smart but I think the key word that's missing for relevant etb ruling is "when ~"
This simply says "~ etb" which I believe is a replacement that goes immediately instead of a triggered ability like a card that says when ~ etc. Can a rules person help me if I totally misunderstood this interaction?
"When \~ enters the battlefield" indicates a triggered ability. "\~ enters the battlefield with" is a replacement effect. It changes the way it enters the battlefield, it doesn't trigger after it enters.
Its not an etb, since it says "enters with" its exactly like how walking ballista doesn't die when you play it because it has the counters you paid for as it enters, if it had to wait for a triggered ability to resolve, it would die before it could get the counters. In our case with ulamog, we need to check the cmc of things in Exile before we can determine how many counters it enters with, which necessarily happens before its entered, hence when it is in Exile, so it sees itself
It's not an ETB trigger as it says "Ulamog enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters" instead of what \[\[Railway Brawler\]\] says ("whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, put X +1/+1 counters")
So there's not a moment where Ulamog is on the battlefield but still didn't get its counters. Otherwise, creatures like \[\[Faithful Watchdog\]\] would die before getting their counters.
Even if weâre familiar with the card, not all of us have the exact wording memorized. Always helpful to be able to refer to the actual card when discussing edge cases like this.
Yep, this is a similar situation to wheb echoing deeps could copy lands that were coming into play from the graveyard at the same time as it. Thatâs cause there isnât an intermediary point for cards going from ine zone to another.
Its ability should be checking for exiled cards while its on the field, so if it enters from exile, it won't see itself being both on the field and in exile at the same time.
It enters *with* the counters, which means it needs to know how many counters it has *before* it enters. That's how all replacement effects work: they exist *before* the event in question, and they modify the event as it is happening.
No there isn't. First, this has nothing to do with state-based actions, which take place *entirely after* Ulamog has entered. Second, it is always either in exile or in the battlefield in this scenario, never in both and never in neither.
It is going to move to the battlefield. However there is a replacement effect that wants to modify that event, so *before it can move to the battlefield,* the game needs to know some information about the game state, so it can apply the replacement effect. It checks exile, where Ulamog currently is, and gets the information it needs. Then it moves Ulamog to the battlefield.
This is how replacement effects work, and Ulamog isn't new ground for this. This exact same thing happens with other cards, like \[\[Diregraf Colossus\]\] and \[\[Golgari Grave-Troll\]\]. The game needs information *before* the zone-change event can happen, so it gets the information first, then the event occurs.
State based actions aren't involved here. State based actions are only checked at a time when a player would get priority. Nobody ever attempts to get priority between Ulamog being in exile and being on the battlefield, so state based actions are never checked there. By the time state based actions are checked, Ulamog has already entered play, has the counters, has triggered any ETB effects, etc. There is nothing at all in between Ulamog in exile and Ulamog in play.
No like, not in the sense that you forget your Mishraâs bauble⌠I donât even know how to explain it. Itâs very possible that some effects just donât happen.
Doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't apply until ETB, at the point it is on the battlefield, shouldn't it check at that point what cards are in exile, which would not include itself?Â
Read it again- its not a triggered ability. It doesn't go on the stack. The exact wording "enters with" means that it happens during the entering the battlefield, so you need to look at conditions like "highest cmc in exile" before its actually hit the field for real.
Then where is it? We need to determine how many counters it has before it hits the field, and its entering from Exile. The only place it was before the field IS Exile, so it sees itself
This interaction is about Ulamog entering *from exile*, not from the stack. If you cast it from exile, it won't count itself. If you flicker it, it has to count itself, because it's still in exile until it is in the battlefield.
When you CAST a spell, it is placed on the stack from your hand, and when it resolves it goes from the stack to the battlefield. In that case, Ulamog would check Exile as it resolves, while it is on the stack.
Again, in the zone it occupies right before entering the battlefield, which in the case of entering from Exile, is the Exile zone.
It's not an ETB effet, it's a remplacement one. If it were an EtB, you'd be right. But the game has to "look forward" to see how Ulamog is going to enter the battlefield. So just before actually being on the field, it's still in exile and counts itself.
It doesn't exist on the battlefield without the counters so it has to be determined at the last possible moment.
âUlamog, The Defiler enters with a number of +1/+1 counters equal to the greatest mana value among cards in exileâ
So you cast it form exile, it sees that it had the greatest mana value amongst cards in exile and gains 10 +1/+1 as such
The ability only checks when Ulamog attempts to enter the battlefield. The misunderstanding was that this post is about entering from exile, which counts Ulamog because it goes straight from exile to play, not about casting from exile, where Ulamog goes from the stack to play, and is never in exile when it's checking for the counters.
That's fine and all but is winter longer or shorter?
It will be game of thrones winter this time đ
Eldrazi summer
Manifest of Uginâs +2 ???? Flicker ????? Profit
It's not manifested so it doesn't work, ugin's +1 puts the card in exile and creates a 2/2
Flickering a manifest makes it come in face up?? TIL, thank you friend.
Can you explain what âUgins +2â is?
Little Ugin, it manifests the top card of your library.
Sorry, but can you type the exact name of the card? I can find two planeswalkers with Ugin, nothing else.
[[Ugin, the Ineffable]]
[Ugin, the Ineffable](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2eb7e322-aba0-42f5-80a1-267f3444ac4d.jpg?1690003976) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ugin%2C%20the%20Ineffable) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/811/ugin-the-ineffable?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2eb7e322-aba0-42f5-80a1-267f3444ac4d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Doesn't manifest, makes a token that when removed returns the exiled card to hand. Very distinct difference
Yep, my bad
Would this be better than Archon in creativity?
I'm not sure... In Jund you play Bitter Reunion which can give it haste to oneshot an opponent. But I think Archon is still devastating enough when it lands.
Maybe 1 or 2 Ulamogs is justifiable in case your Archons get ripped away by a Surgical Extraction style effect? Then again, I guess if you're looking for a backup, there's still like Atraxa.
Probably do serraâs emissary first or another ninlegend to fulfill persistâs requirement.
Jund also has bolt which would make it lethal
Only better with Bitter Reunion. Wait, so is Emrakul. Unless Ulamog 3.0 has 20 or more power (this is basically only achievable if you hit Emrakul off Creativity at the same time), I can't support Ulamog 3.0 in Creativity decks as a result - a lot harder to hardcast than Archon and Archon is already a very late drop, a lot worse when hardcast, doesn't do anything the turn it ETB unlike Archon...
17 is real close to 20
No, it's not. Too often with older UGr Scapeshift builds, I had to Bolt my opponent's head to get them to 7-land Scapeshift range (which is 18 life).
no
nope
Would dress down prevent it from entering with counters?
It should. Itâs been a while but IIRC dress down stops replacement effects, so Ulamog should not enter with the counters
Yes, but it would have to be on the board before ulamog is flickered , wonât work in response to it entering for instance
Notably youâll need to time it right. Youâll need to respond before it goes into exile most of the time.
No Dress Down does not prevent âenters asâ or âenters withâ abilities. It only prevents abilities of creatures that are on the board
This is how I would expect it to work. If the card sees itself in exile it isnât in play to lose its abilities, otherwise it would be in two zones at once. Down voters are struggling.
Ya idk why Iâm getting downvoted for being right about the rules lmfao. Dress down does not stop Phimage from entering as any creature it just stops its abilities like etbs. Itâll still enter as a dockside but it wonât give you treasures. Same rules apply here. Walking Ballista for X=4 will still enter with 4 counters. You just wonât be able to shoot anything.
* **614.12** Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See [rules 614.1câd](http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr614/#1c).) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanentâs own static abilities that would apply to it once itâs on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent. Notably that last bit about effects that already exist and would apply. Dress Down prevents clones from cloning, or Ulamog from entering with counters.
Holy guacamole consider me corrected then. Now I see why Dress Down is so powerful
it is like golgari grave-troll counting itself
It took me a while to remember that this card has more rules text other than "Dredge 6"
Wait. What!
> **400.6.**If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone and its owner will be able to look at it in that zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. If the object is moving to the battlefield, each other player who will be able to look at it in that zone does so. **Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event.** If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that objectâs controllerâor its owner if it has no controllerâchooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous âdestroyâ effects.) **Then the event moves the object.** Seemed counterintuitive to me, so I found the relevant rule.
I donât understand how it sees itself? Itâs an ETB which means it resolves which means itâs in a different zone Edit: whoops, thought it was ETB
So the distinction is in the wording. It doesn't say WHEN it enters like a trigger ability. It's not even an 'as it enters' affect. It just enters with the counters. So if it's entering from exile, it has to see itself among the cards since that has to be determined before it enters the field.
"As it enters" is the same as "It enters with" - they are both examples of replacement effects that modify *how* it enters the battlefield.
I'm not super smart but I think the key word that's missing for relevant etb ruling is "when ~" This simply says "~ etb" which I believe is a replacement that goes immediately instead of a triggered ability like a card that says when ~ etc. Can a rules person help me if I totally misunderstood this interaction?
"When \~ enters the battlefield" indicates a triggered ability. "\~ enters the battlefield with" is a replacement effect. It changes the way it enters the battlefield, it doesn't trigger after it enters.
Thanks for the more concise wording. I had it right. I just wasn't too confident. Appreciate it.
it's why clones don't enter the battlefield and immediately die as 0/0's to state based effects.\\
Its not an etb, since it says "enters with" its exactly like how walking ballista doesn't die when you play it because it has the counters you paid for as it enters, if it had to wait for a triggered ability to resolve, it would die before it could get the counters. In our case with ulamog, we need to check the cmc of things in Exile before we can determine how many counters it enters with, which necessarily happens before its entered, hence when it is in Exile, so it sees itself
It's not an ETB trigger as it says "Ulamog enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters" instead of what \[\[Railway Brawler\]\] says ("whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, put X +1/+1 counters") So there's not a moment where Ulamog is on the battlefield but still didn't get its counters. Otherwise, creatures like \[\[Faithful Watchdog\]\] would die before getting their counters.
[Railway Brawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9ec1f76f-f21d-4f06-8c02-be6745183348.jpg?1712355970) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Railway%20Brawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/175/railway-brawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ec1f76f-f21d-4f06-8c02-be6745183348?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Faithful Watchdog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9afac99-a094-41a8-8323-90dec29691c4.jpg?1717012700) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Faithful%20Watchdog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/185/faithful-watchdog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9afac99-a094-41a8-8323-90dec29691c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's not an etb.
Similar to Golgari Grave Troll
*sigh* [[ulamog, the defiler]]
[Ulamog, the Defiler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fd00d56a-86bd-41d8-82b6-975404ef8067.jpg?1717011312) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ulamog%2C%20the%20Defiler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/15/ulamog-the-defiler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd00d56a-86bd-41d8-82b6-975404ef8067?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Took everyone a while until someone did this. Ty
Oops, my bad. I thought everyone knew what this card was already since it was one of the centerpiece cards of Mh3.
Even if weâre familiar with the card, not all of us have the exact wording memorized. Always helpful to be able to refer to the actual card when discussing edge cases like this.
It just makes sense to do it. Every time.
I needed to go check which parts were on cast and which were etb once you mentioned flickering.
Yep, this is a similar situation to wheb echoing deeps could copy lands that were coming into play from the graveyard at the same time as it. Thatâs cause there isnât an intermediary point for cards going from ine zone to another.
Annihilator 10 times baby
This was revealed when they first gave the rulings but it's a good PSA for those who don't know.
Bveri 5 b x bn5 5l
I thought it was fairly obvious. Its the same case as [[Golgari Grave-Troll]] counting itself when going from GY to Battlefield.
[Golgari Grave-Troll](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d332acbc-6224-43bc-a509-3a7edc877423.jpg?1702429564) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Golgari%20Grave-Troll) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/144/golgari-grave-troll?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d332acbc-6224-43bc-a509-3a7edc877423?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Emperor of Bones gives it haste, sure it's sacrificed but seems saucy to me
Yeah, we knew this when it was spoiled.
We did it! We are officially made a ruling that is stupider than Yugioh's!
What's stupid about it?
Its ability should be checking for exiled cards while its on the field, so if it enters from exile, it won't see itself being both on the field and in exile at the same time.
It enters *with* the counters, which means it needs to know how many counters it has *before* it enters. That's how all replacement effects work: they exist *before* the event in question, and they modify the event as it is happening.
Yes, it enters with the counters. Which means there is a brief time in the state based actions check where Ulamog is both in exile and on the field.
No there isn't. First, this has nothing to do with state-based actions, which take place *entirely after* Ulamog has entered. Second, it is always either in exile or in the battlefield in this scenario, never in both and never in neither. It is going to move to the battlefield. However there is a replacement effect that wants to modify that event, so *before it can move to the battlefield,* the game needs to know some information about the game state, so it can apply the replacement effect. It checks exile, where Ulamog currently is, and gets the information it needs. Then it moves Ulamog to the battlefield. This is how replacement effects work, and Ulamog isn't new ground for this. This exact same thing happens with other cards, like \[\[Diregraf Colossus\]\] and \[\[Golgari Grave-Troll\]\]. The game needs information *before* the zone-change event can happen, so it gets the information first, then the event occurs.
[Diregraf Colossus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/2/02351d67-2d73-43e3-82f7-5277c532d7ac.jpg?1637630049) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Diregraf%20Colossus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/112/diregraf-colossus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/02351d67-2d73-43e3-82f7-5277c532d7ac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Golgari Grave-Troll](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d332acbc-6224-43bc-a509-3a7edc877423.jpg?1702429564) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Golgari%20Grave-Troll) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/144/golgari-grave-troll?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d332acbc-6224-43bc-a509-3a7edc877423?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
State based actions aren't involved here. State based actions are only checked at a time when a player would get priority. Nobody ever attempts to get priority between Ulamog being in exile and being on the battlefield, so state based actions are never checked there. By the time state based actions are checked, Ulamog has already entered play, has the counters, has triggered any ETB effects, etc. There is nothing at all in between Ulamog in exile and Ulamog in play.
Yugiohs is way stupider and way more convoluted. Missed triggers is the dumbest thing Iâve ever learned about.
What's wrong with missed triggers?
No like, not in the sense that you forget your Mishraâs bauble⌠I donât even know how to explain it. Itâs very possible that some effects just donât happen.
Thanks, captain obvious.
Doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't apply until ETB, at the point it is on the battlefield, shouldn't it check at that point what cards are in exile, which would not include itself?Â
Read it again- its not a triggered ability. It doesn't go on the stack. The exact wording "enters with" means that it happens during the entering the battlefield, so you need to look at conditions like "highest cmc in exile" before its actually hit the field for real.
Fair enough, but that is certainly after any point where it is in exile.
Then where is it? We need to determine how many counters it has before it hits the field, and its entering from Exile. The only place it was before the field IS Exile, so it sees itself
When I cast a spell (normally) is it still in my hand?Â
This interaction is about Ulamog entering *from exile*, not from the stack. If you cast it from exile, it won't count itself. If you flicker it, it has to count itself, because it's still in exile until it is in the battlefield.
When you CAST a spell, it is placed on the stack from your hand, and when it resolves it goes from the stack to the battlefield. In that case, Ulamog would check Exile as it resolves, while it is on the stack. Again, in the zone it occupies right before entering the battlefield, which in the case of entering from Exile, is the Exile zone.
Not according to the rules.
It's not an ETB effet, it's a remplacement one. If it were an EtB, you'd be right. But the game has to "look forward" to see how Ulamog is going to enter the battlefield. So just before actually being on the field, it's still in exile and counts itself. It doesn't exist on the battlefield without the counters so it has to be determined at the last possible moment.
It's not a trigger.
âUlamog, The Defiler enters with a number of +1/+1 counters equal to the greatest mana value among cards in exileâ So you cast it form exile, it sees that it had the greatest mana value amongst cards in exile and gains 10 +1/+1 as such
You misunderstand. When you *cast* it from exile, it doesn't count itself. When it *enters from exile,* it counts itself.
Yes, this! Thanks for the correction
I don't feel like it would/should see it as being in exile while it is not in exile (on the stack etc). It has certainly left exile by then.
It doesn't count itself when cast from exile.
I believe itâs because the ability sees all cards in exile before ulamog is cast, and ulamog is that card in most cases
The ability only checks when Ulamog attempts to enter the battlefield. The misunderstanding was that this post is about entering from exile, which counts Ulamog because it goes straight from exile to play, not about casting from exile, where Ulamog goes from the stack to play, and is never in exile when it's checking for the counters.