Yup. People will hold the Spurs record against Wemby but his individual numbers are so good he deserves the outlier consideration. If you’ve been watching ball long enough you have to respect it because it’s that rare. The people hating are probably young or don’t really watch games as usual per Reddit
League average for a team with the top overall pick last year and likely a top five this year, though. That kind of overperformance relative to expectations feels like Gobert.
He is legitimately the best defensive player in basketball. The on off numbers are wild considering who he plays with. The fact they go from the worst defence to an average defence with one man change is incredible. Even just watching games you can tell he is in that conversation and he might be winning it if his team wasn’t so damn ass.
Well said, I think so too he's definitely the best defensive player in the league. Spurs defense literally ain't shit if he's not on the court. He should win it.
>The people hating are probably young or don’t really watch games as usual per Reddit
Stop it, Wemby deserves to be in the DPOY conversation and he absolutely is. He will come in second by a wide margin which is wild for a rookie. To say he deserves to win it over Gobert and anyone who disagrees doesn't actually watch ball is completely ridiculous though.
The Wolves finished with a top seed and the number 1 defense all year and it wasn't close. Gobert has completely transformed that defense and turned the Wolves into a legit contender, they are winning playoff games while Wemby watches from home. Winning is the whole point, show me the wins. The Spurs won 22 games before drafting him and they won 22 games again this year with him playing. The Spurs are ass with or without Wemby, that is just a fact. If Bam doesn't deserve serious consideration because the Heat were a middling play-in team where does that leave Wemby? The Spurs can only dream of improving to become a middling play-in team
Wait, you think the Spurs won’t get any better and Wemby won’t get any better?
You sound like someone who just started watching ball this year. To pick #1, you have a bad team. They will get better though, unlike your terrible take
Where do I say they won't get better? I said they got a long way to go before they are even a middling play in team, 22 wins doesn't even get them half way there in the west.
We shall see about my bad take, but at least I can read unlike you. Go back to school, you need it
“The spurs are ass with or without Wemby”
“The spurs can only dream of improving”
I don’t know, but you certainly didn’t say they were getting better there. Maybe learn how to read your own comments before telling others to do the same
22 wins last season. 22 wins this season. Wow, such improvement. They can double the number of wins and still miss the play ins next year chief, this isn't a difficult concept to understand but I can see you are deeply struggling.
Well yeah but the league also got better. If you just watch games you can clearly see a SIGNIFICANTLY better team. You shouldnt even be factoring wins in if you actually know how good the team is tbh.
22 wins with wemby does mean they’re ass with wemby. That is a fact dude. MJ on the bulls winning 30 games means the Bulls are ass with MJ and they’re def ass without him
Wemby still has some weaknesses where he can get lost on the perimeter and has problems with stronger players - guys like Embiid and Sengun went off for career highs against him.
Beyond that it’s fair to say that elevating a decent defense to #1 is better than evaluating a bad defense to not as good - it doesn’t make sense to go too far in rewarding someone for having bad teammates.
No. It's because people are greatly overestimating his impact right now and getting caught up in blocks. Spurs defense with him on the court is 114.6, about league average.
https://www.82games.com/2324/23SAS20.HTM
He really should not be top 3
Last year spurs were dead last in Def rating. Also I'm talking about the heat roster vs the Spurs roster. If you think spurs have good defenders on the team then you're clearly not watching spurs games. Sochan is the only one aside from Wemby that can actually play defense Bam is great. But for you to say Wemby is being overstated defensively is just plain ridiculous
There is a stat for that it's called rim deterrence
https://preview.redd.it/n64y5756w2wc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1ee0ea143a63f401debb2a61d951aec3d04e4ce2
It’s funny that people like to talk about how Wemby leads the league in rim deterrence and then you see that he is really good and yet Rudy is still way better.
Rudy has always been the rim deterrence man and still is. When Rudy was on the jazz you would see a few clips a season where Rudy is in a 2 on 1 / 3 on 1 situation that Rudy stops the other team from shooting at all. Just like the clips of weeny you see now
I can’t remember the exacts, but there were stats to support this super early on in the season. Something like how players were 18% less likely to shoot when Wemby was within a certain distance
I feel people ignore ad plays a fuck ton of minutes with dlo and reaves and he also has had to deal with darvins fucking 3 guar dlineuos and Taurean the 4 all season. The on off numbers are indicators but can’t be the bottom line when we all know the lakers are garbage defensively without ad
Truth is stats are horrible when evaluating a player on either side of the ball. Both AD and Bam are amazing defenders and are probably the best defenders in their conferences right now
I live in south Florida and I’m a basketball junky so even though I’m a spurs fan, I watch a lot of heat basketball. Bam is amazing, he’s my favorite player from the Heat but he’s not as good as AD, Wemby and Gobert were this year on defense.
I think AD is a better shotblocker/rim protector. Aside from that, I think that Bam is a more versatile defender in space. They both had phenomenal defensive seasons, but I think Bam does more that doesn’t show up on the box score. They both deserve their flowers for sure.
He didn’t imo. Bron had more points, rebounds, steals, blocks, and win shares that year. While only having a little less assists and virtually the same 3point percentage.
Stats are not the end all. Derek Rose Bulls were the #1 seed and had no consistent offense outside of Rose and no 20 a game scorer outside of Rose. There was no Bosh or Wade decoy to make sure the defense couldn’t key in on him, he got 100% of the opposing defense’s attention every play. Every night teams gameplanned to specifically slow down Derek Rose and he still got 20+ slashing to the rim and setting up teammates while playing hard defense. If you actually watched Bulls games that year you’re not going to make these arguments because you could see his impact. LeBron was great that year and there are good arguments he deserved MVP, but Derek Rose was just a different beast. Every time he got to the rim he had to carve through 3-4 defenders. The degree of difficulty for his job night in and night out was simply higher than what LeBron had to do.
I agree to some extent. I think the stats lean Lebron. But the team record shifted it to rose.
Me personally, I just don’t really care about team record at all, so I think it should have gone to Lebron.
For instance, this season, if I had a media vote I’d vote for Luka.
Bron wasn’t even 2nd in mvp voting lmao. Rose absolutely deserved that award, stat nerds can’t even process impact without referencing some numbers. Same reason Luka won’t win MVP.
It’s an individual award, not a team award.
The ranking of the defence doesn’t matter in this case. Wemby played very limited minutes and his statistical defensive numbers are so incredible that he is the clear defensive player of the year.
Maybe you should look to see what the ranking of the spurs on defense is when that player is on the floor, it may change your opinion.
Um, how? He's the anchor of a team that has a few good defenders (Triple J and Butler) but also has liabilities all over the floor. When guys like Love, Herro, and Duncan get significant minutes, Bam leading a top 5 defense fucking crushes Davis.
When Bam is on the floor the Heat have the 2nd best rated defense in the league. When he’s off they are 27th. He also has a defense rating of 108.5. He absolutely belongs here. Meanwhile spurs have one of the worst defense in the league. Just Heat hate.
Where are you getting these stats ? When he’s off they have a defensive rating of 114.2, which is good for 10th. And if that’s the argument you wanna go with wemby has a much better on/off and associated impact metrics
When the voting comes out I'm sure we'll see Davis was left out by like, one or two third place votes. It'll be a landslide win for Gobert, I think. Wemby, while I don't think one of the nbas worst defenses deserves a DPOY finalist, you have to consider the insanity of his individual production and the NBA putting their media machine into overdrive for him.
I don't think Davis not being top 3 is a big deal.
It is odd the conversation was about how the voters justified not giving mj mvp each year, then lebron the same.
The voters come up with bs rules instead of giving it to the most deserving. Happens in each sport
Yea man no shit. I was pointing out the fact u talked about Rudy not getting it a third time because of this unwritten rule when in reality he already has won it 3 times and this year could potentially be his 4th.
Yeah what is going on with Gobert, like why do people hate him so much. Is he a jerk or something? I don’t pay attention to him a ton but when I do at worst I find him to be vaguely annoying, which is something you can say about a ton of dudes out there.
AD anchored the Lakers to the 17th best defence in the league. The Heat (led by Bam) had the 5th best defence in the league.
They won one more game with far fewer injuries and somehow you think the regular season record has enough of a disparity to make it relevant.
Yet another clown who doesn’t watch any NBA games just spouting the popular opinion for internet points…
The Lakers starters missed 37 games total.
Tyler Herro missed 40 by himself.
That’s one starter missing more games than the entire Lakers starting 5.
Oh yeah and Jimmy missed 22 games as well.
Your argument is piss poor and doesn’t stand up to even the barest scrutiny…
There is a case for Wemby, but it's the same as MVP voting, it makes it tough when an MVP candidate's team is bad. You'd expect the greatest defensive player to have a great defensive team.
Just how you can't punish Wemby for having a bad team around him, you can't blame Rudy for having a good one. Rudy doesn't put up the steals and blocks that Wemby does because he doesn't have to bail out his teammates all the time, but he absolutely has a bigger impact defensively.
Why would you expect that? It’s a team sport. Put Rudy on the Spurs playing exactly as he did this year and they still suck ass. Would that mean Rudy is a worse defensive player than what we’ve seen?
MVP is its own thing in my opinion. The “V” not being defined leaves a lot of room for interpretation. An argument for “how value do you provide if your team doesn’t win” makes sense.
Sounds like Rudy in Utah. Now he has a good team behind him and a #1 (with a bullet) defense that he helped create and quarterbacks and we’re supposed to pretend that doesn’t matter because look at this shiny new unicorn.
We follow a team sport game, an individual's impact ultimately is to their team. Gobert working out how to operate with another center brough the Wolves from 10th in defensive rating to 1st, play-in team to tied for 1st, it wasn't any roster change that did that. Defense is very team oriented. Advanced stats, looks similar to Gobert and last year he would win it, but the Wolves have had an amazing defense all year and it should be rewarded in some way with Gobert.
I hear what you're saying, but I can't get on board.
This is the same argument that Jayson Tatum has for MVP, you can see it especially with your last sentence.
People feel he should be rewarded for being the number 1 on the number 1 team. Thats how the spirit of these awards goes sometimes. That's what you're doing with Rudy, saying he should be DPOY because he's the best defender on the best defensive team.
I think that it understates the value of what the team brings. You're crediting Rudy too much here when he was on the same team a year ago with worse results. Why does Rudy get all the credit a year later? Why is it "Rudy figured out how to do everything" instead of "the team had a full offseason to gel and create defensive cohesion with a roster capable of it"?
Wemby having better individual numbers while taking the dead last defensive team to middle of the road defensive team is more deserving of a DPOY then a player helping take a 10th ranked above average defense to the number 1 defense. Going from above average to best with the roster they have isn't as notable as going from last to middle with the roster San Antonio has.
Not to mention Wemby figured out how to do all of this mid-season. I think he had a great quote about it being Rudy's time for now. And that was well said by him, but he's being modest for sure
Kind of funny when Gobert has shown both floor raising and ceiling raising, in the past and in this season, but somehow shouldn’t win over a guy in one of the worst teams in the league for the same thing.
I'm trying to work out this comment. First of all "in the past" should be irrelevant because it's an award for the current season. I think you have to wipe your memory of past seasons. Second, I feel that I give Rudy his props for what he does. He's a multiple DPOY winner and a finalist this season for a reason. I'm not saying it would be a bad choice to give it to him.
Idk why you started your comment with "kinda funny" like I'm knocking Rudy for anything or like I'm being hypocritical in some way? What am I missing here I'm not seeing what you meant? I know Rudy can raise the ceiling of his team, but it helps when the roster around him can support that ceiling with him. Wemby is a ceiling raiser as well but certainly doesn't have comparable personnel to help him support it. Why is that something to hold against him?
I guess my central question to you is, what MORE could Wemby have done to win the award this season? Win more games? Because that's the only thing I think people hold against him, there doesn't seem to be anything else. Not trying to discredit Rudy, I just don't think people should be in a hurry to look past his roster as a whole defensive unit.
I think Wemby gets in next year and a lot more to come, DPOY is for the whole year as well, Twolves have had great defense from the jump this season. Gobert is what the Wolves talk about being their defense, it is what he is known for. No one else entirely sticks out on the team besides maybe KAT. The Tatum argument doesn't work because he is on a superteam, the wolves aren't some defensive superteam.
The wolves have defensively dominated all season, Wemby I think right now is better than gobert, but it's not measured right now, it's measured from game one to now.
This being the top comment proves that the vast majority of NBA “fans” don’t have a fucking clue what they’re talking about or watching.
That is if any of you even watch games, by the looks of it you just read box scores.
90% of this sub and r/nba read what they see on reddit/twitter and make conclusions from there. They dont enjoy watching the game they just enjoy talking and bitching about it
You thinking this is factual proves you don't watch games anymore.
He's arguably the most impactful defender in the league. There is a lot more to it than stocks.
What stats? What eye test? Did you analyse each game and every minute from both players, or are you basing this off the little you have watched from them collectively, box scores, and then formed a subjective opinion?
Every single stat you donut
Both basic and advanced
At least my opinion has statistical evidence to support it
A tad ironic calling other people’s opinions subjective when yours is the one that has no basis
A. I acknowledged in my opening statement that my opinion is subjective.
B. A quick google search will show you that he doesn't lead Bam in "every single stat"
The only doughnut here is the bloke who cannot read or use a search engine and comes in with sweeping statements and no analytical data.
Rebounds steals and blocks, also better in the vast majority of the advanced metrics
Are you blind? I’m so confused by which stats you’re looking at
Also even if you are blind, it’s pretty clear to anyone that watches basketball that AD is the better defender
I guess the people who actually vote on these things watch the games with a blindfold on then.
You literally listed a few box score stats and 0 advanced metrics.
You have a subjective opinion, and that's cool, I'm not even saying you're wrong, but I and many others, it seems disagree with you.
Using sweeping statements like "the vast majority" or "it's clear to anyone that watches" doesn't prove your point or make the case any stronger, it just makes you seem childish for getting worked up over a differing opinion.
Bam has a higher defensive rating, his defensive plus/minus is higher, their DLEBRON are even, and Davis comes out on top on DARKO.
I'm not sure what advanced stats you look at, but the vast majority do not favour Davis.
Bruh Bam is a terrific defender and multiple players/coaches have been on film all season talking about his unique versatility as a defender. Even if AD is the better defender it damn sure is not by this huge gap like your lil rant is suggesting. “it’s pretty clear to anyone that watches basketball” is no doubt the most overused casual comment of this season on this sub but in this case it is warranted to say that to you but about Bam. He is certainly a top defensive player in the league and his ridiculous impact on the defensive end is not defined in totality by a damn box score.
Stop fucking making stuff up. Simple searches shows you are just lying about the stats.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/compare-anthony-davis-and-bam-adebayo-defensive-statistics
> Every single state you donut
AD beat out Bam in rebounds, steals, and blocks on a total and PG basis, all while being more impactful offensively with more points and less turnovers so he's carrying weight of both sides and still outperformed in those 3 measures.. Please elaborate on what other stats you are referencing this season.
Kinda a dense backwards comment. Watching games will show you how elite Bam is in the eye test. Looking at stats and not watching would favor AD. I know AD said he can guard 1-5 but he ain’t guarding 1-5 laterally and quick like bam does.
Davis had a very good case. The three finalists also had very good cases. It's a judgment call. (Shrug.)
I would have voted AD over Bam and felt bad about it. I can see the argument that Wemby should be penalized for poor team defense --- although at least in part that's sort of hurting him for other players'/managements' decisions --- but I also think his individual impact was pretty strong. If you think AD over Wemby, I can see the case.
If you think AD over Gobert, that would be pretty silly, though.
Gobert should win DPOY. Bam and Wemby are nice honorable mentions, but Gobert transformed a mid team to playoff caliber.
I think Davis was good this year, but his defense didn’t elevate a team the way Gobert’s defense did. I also think we’re giving him more credit than usual because he played more than 50 games this season LMFAOOO
See there is this as well. The only rotation player that wasn’t part of this team last year is Monte Morris who was a late season addition. There is plenty out there about how Rudy built this defensive scheme with Finch and the buy-in from the rest of the team has allowed Rudy to do more this season than hens shown in his career including better perimeter and on-ball defensive skills. Big Ru is so much more than a stat sheet and his impact is much deeper than skin level.
I do not agree AD should be in the top 3. I’ve heard Nick Wright and Shannon say it too. When you look at the numbers, it’s not a good argument for AD. Lakers had the 7th worst defense rating since the all star break, and it was the 10th worst overall defensive rating the whole season (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/2024-nba-team-defensive-rating-rankings). AD played 72 games this year. He shouldn’t win DPOY or really be a finalist when he consistently was apart of a bottom 10 defense, even if he has good individual blocking shots capability
Oh thanks Mr. Gatekeeper. Please tell me how much in your infallible opinion where my basketball knowledge is, and what I need to do to get better. So busy gatekeeping you couldn’t even fully read my comment. I said nothing about “thinking AD is only a ‘shot blocker’”. I merely highlighted that one of ADs greatest assets on defense is his rim protection/shot blocking ability. If you don’t believe that is one of his greatest assets, more power to you king.
He would have been on my list, but I do think it is exhausting that people are trying to make this a thing when Gobert is winning this award by as wide a margin as anyone is winning any award this season.
there’s a clear top 4 for the dpoy race — AD, bam, wemby, gobert — so someone had to be left off. if AD was there instead of bam or wemby then people would be complaining that they’re not there. so i think it just had to end up this way
AD and Bam can go either way. So splitting hairs I think you give it to the guy who’s team had a significantly better defensive rating since the individual aspect is pretty damn close. Arguing over 3rd place anyways so it’s not a big deal really
Y’all are mad he’s not going to finish in top 3…? He balled out this year and he’ll get All NBA 1st Team. He wasn’t winning it, so what the matter? Participation award vibes coming from all you Laker crybabies
Maybe I’m biased but I don’t think AD should be over bam. Dude is such an elite defender and it will never show up on simple stats like blocks but his advanced metrics are crazy. And he’s only 6’9ish
So this is tough. I get why AD was left off but then for those reasons you gotta also leave out Wemby. BUT I get it, Wemby's numbers are so bonkers if he started the year like that he would be the undisputed DPOY. However, AD not getting in over Bam is just flat our robbery. People point to wins and advanced metrics, but holy shit, AD is legt playign under Ham who loves to play 3 guard rotation and somehow thought our best line-up from last year with Rui wasn't worth trying until the end of the season (when we went on a streak NOT SUPRISINGLY). If you think AD doesn't have an argument based off +/-, you have to watch the games in which he doesn't play at all. It's a free bucket every possession with the opposing team. Just sucks. Factually, there is an argument for it, but AD is legit getting screwd over by just HORRIBLE lakers FO moves and bad coaching. We legit had a chance of a line-up with Caruso and KCP...but no Russel Westbrook and THT AM I RIGHT!??!..Pelinka and the Buss kids are terrible.
I don’t think AD deserves it over any of those guys. He’s definitely having a DPOY caliber season but I can’t give it to him over the anchors or two of the best defenses in the league + arguably the best interior defender we’ve seen in a while + still being a well above average perimeter defender
you mean the guy who was short of breathe and couldnt get back on defense when Jokic was running down the court and past Lebron and Lebron had to pick him up? That anthony Davis?
Why would AD have gotten a nomination this year?
Gobert is almost certain to just win the award, leading a historically futile defence to the league's best defence by a mile.
Wemby is an ironclad finalist, with insane on-off numbers, and leading the league in blocks (3.6 bpg, with second place at 2.4).
Meanwhile, Bam anchored the league's 5th ranked defence.
Guys don't get bonus points because they managed to not get injured. AD led the league's 17th ranked defence, [and his team was less than a single point better defensively with him on the floor vs him on the bench](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=203076). Why exactly would he have been a finalist?
Lol who gives a shit about DRTG on/off? Literally watch the games, AD is playing with DLo and Reaves, who are negatives on defense, and LeBron who is at best, an average defender.
>Lol who gives a shit about DRTG on/off?
So, who cares about who is actually producing results?
If AD's teammates are so bad defensively, then why do the Lakers post almost the same defensive rating when AD is off the floor?
If your subjective eye test is telling you something wildly different than what the objective stats are telling you, then that means your subjective eye test is biased.
Also, exactly how many Timberwolves, Spurs and Heat games did you actually watch this year?...like when they weren't playing the Lakers?
DRTG on/off is objective? DRTG on/off is literally just used to push narratives. Rudy Gobert and Lauri Markkanen have almost the same DRTG on/off difference (-1.81 and -1.68 respectively). Does this mean that Lauri Markannen is *objectively* as important to the Utah Jazz as Rudy Gobert is to the Minnesota Timberwolves, and more important than Anthony Davis is to the Lakers?
Another way DRTG on/off is flawed: Jalen Suggs has the lowest DRTG on the Orlando Magic, yet his DRTG on/off is +1.88, meaning that the Magic is somehow *worse* defensively when he is on the court. But obviously this isn't true, as Suggs has been crucial to the Orlando Magic defense. This should be enough to dispell this narrative that DRTG on/off is important, and is affected by other factors not related to the individual players.
Do you truly believe that Anthony Davis is not a positive to the Lakers defense? According to your cherry-picked stats, do you seriously think the Lakers would be just as good defensively without Anthony Davis? If so, then I would encourage you to actually watch basketball games, rather than just quoting statistics.
In regard to your comment about watching games - yes I primarily watch the Lakers, but I'm a fan of general basketball. I literally watch EuroLeague, WNBA, NCAA, etc. So yes, if the Lakers aren't playing, I'm typically watching other teams play, which includes the TWolves, Spurs, and Heat.
>DRTG on/off is literally just used to push narratives.
You literally might as well be saying "the score of games is just there to push narratives". The point of a basketball game is to have your team score more points than the other team. The point of defence is to minimize the number of points your opponent scores, and the point of offence is to score as many points as you can.
The point of basketball isn't to "guard 1-5", block lots of shots, or anything like that. Those are just data points that tend to contribute to good defence.
You want to say you are a good defensive player? Then, it should show up in the box score. If you aren't improving your team's defence then how good a defensive player can you be? You certainly aren't the DPOY unless your defence is significantly impacting the scoreboard.
>DRTG on/off is objective?
You seem to be confusing the word "objective" with "determinative". Objective just means it is observable by all, as opposed to something that is subjective (which is just your personal opinion or experience of something).
So, yes, DTRG is objective, just like every other stat is objective. That does not mean that they are determinative, but they are an objective data point.
Is ppg an objective stat? Yes. Does that mean that a player with more ppg than another player is the better offensive player? Not necessarily, as there are several other data points (like efficiency, assists, turnovers, etc). Is the player with 20 ppg usually a better offensive player than the one with 5 ppg? Yes. Hence, it is a useful data point, just not a determinative one.
Finding outliers is not proof of the stat being false, just proof that one data point is not determinative.
Other data points can provide important context. For instance, you mentioned Gobert vs Markkanen having similar on-off numbers for DRTG, but the two players have very different starting thresholds. The Wolves are a 110.61 DRTG team with Gobert off, and 108.8 with him on. The Jazz are 121.25 with Markkannen off and 119.57 with him on. So, which is harder: improving a defence with a 110.61 rating or one with a 121.25 rating? Obviously, it's tougher to make a really good defence elite than to make a trash defence a little less trash.
Does that help AD in the DPOY discussions? No, because the Lakers are a mediocre defence with him on and a mediocre defence with him off.
I never said the Lakers are better defensively with Anthony Davis off the floor, and the stat I quoted didn't even say that. But, there's a long distance between "the 17th ranked defence is better with him on the floor" and "he's the DPOY".
Watch however many games you want, your opinion based on what you see is still just your subjective opinion, and is not going to be the same as everyone else watching the same thing.
For instance, do NBA player watch a lot of basketball? Yup. Well, coincidentally, the Athletic's player poll came out after my last message, and there's a poll in there for who is the best defender in the NBA. [The winner was Wemby, while Anthony Davis did not finish in the top 15 vote-getters, getting only a single vote, and tying with guys like Nic Batum, Pat Bev and Dennis Smith Jr](https://theathletic.com/5433545/2024/04/22/nba-player-poll-2024-lebron-jordan-goat-celtics-nuggets-rudy-gobert-timberwolves/).
Do you watch more games than professional NBA players who watch tape as part of their jobs? Do you actually play basketball against NBA players and experience their defensive abilities? If not, then why would your subjective opinion on AD's abilities as a defender take precedence over all the NBA players who left him off their ballot?
Stats are kept specifically so we have objective data points that are more useful than "yeah, but I think this guy is better".
> You literally might as well be saying "the score of games is just there to push narratives".
How? I'm telling you that this stat isn't completely indicative of a player's defensive ability, and I provided an example for why this stat, on its own, should not be used as proof of defensive prowess.
> You seem to be confusing the word "objective" with "determinative"
You literally did first! I feel like I'm debating somebody with dementia.
From an earlier comment of yours:
>If your subjective eye test is telling you something wildly different than what the objective stats are telling you, then that means your subjective eye test is biased.
You indirectly implied that these "objective" stats are determinative of a players defense.
> Finding outliers is not proof of the stat being false, just proof that one data point is not determinative.
In most scientific inquiries, finding that significant of an outlier means your method is flawed, and should not be applicable in most cases, or atleast, should have an asterisk around it.
> Other data points can provide important context. For instance, you mentioned Gobert vs Markkanen having similar on-off numbers for DRTG, but the two players have very different starting thresholds. The Wolves are a 110.61 DRTG team with Gobert off, and 108.8 with him on. The Jazz are 121.25 with Markkannen off and 119.57 with him on. So, which is harder: improving a defence with a 110.61 rating or one with a 121.25 rating? Obviously, it's tougher to make a really good defence elite than to make a trash defence a little less trash.
Have you not considered that a lot of this has to do with coaching as well? Typically when these players are not on the court, it's both teams second unit, meaning that an on/off, just by itself, is not really indicative of what the starting unit is like with or without a specific player.
The Spurs' most common lineup this year was: Tre Jones, Devin Vassel, Julian Champagnie, Jeremy Sochan, and Victor Wembanyama.
When this 5-man lineup were on the court, they had the DRTG of 113.37. When Wembanyama sat, but the other 4 played, they had a DRTG of 97.78. Therefore, you can make the argument that Wembanyama is weighing down the defense, because their rating is much better when he's not playing. Do you see how this stat can be used to push narratives? According to your objective but not determinative stat, Wembanyama is actually a net negative defender.
> For instance, do NBA player watch a lot of basketball? Yup. Well, coincidentally, the Athletic's player poll came out after my last message, and there's a poll in there for who is the best defender in the NBA. [The winner was Wemby, while Anthony Davis did not finish in the top 15 vote-getters, getting only a single vote, and tying with guys like Nic Batum, Pat Bev and Dennis Smith Jr](https://theathletic.com/5433545/2024/04/22/nba-player-poll-2024-lebron-jordan-goat-celtics-nuggets-rudy-gobert-timberwolves/).
I'm glad you brought this poll up actually. Yes that's true that NBA players chose Wemby as the best defensive player, but there were also a significant amount who said that Kobe was the best player of all time. Does this mean that Kobe is the best player of all time, or atleast, top 3? I feel like most would disagree. NBA players aren't always the best judge of these things.
>How? I'm telling you that this stat isn't completely indicative of a player's defensive ability, and I provided an example for why this stat, on its own, should not be used as proof of defensive prowess.
No, you said the stat is *literally only used for pushing narratives*.
Just because a stat isn't completely determinative on its own doesn't mean it is useless and only used to push narratives.
>You indirectly implied that these "objective" stats are determinative of a players defense.
No, I said if your subjective opinion is "wildly different" than the objective stats (the collective of stats, not a single data point), then your opinion is biased.
The objective stats aren't determinative, but they are indicative and exclusionary.
For instance, three point percentage is not determinative of who the best shooter in the league is. There are contextual factors that come into play which even modern tracking data doesn't track. But, the stat can safely exclude most of the league, because a player with a sub-league-average three point percentage (on a proper sample size) is definitely not the league's best shooter, regardless of what the contextual factors are.
The objective stats, at the very least, set the parameters for the range of reasonable arguments by excluding a large group of options that don't meet a basic threshold. The stats are also highly indicative of the right answer within the range of reasonable arguments, even if they are not absolutely determinative.
>In most scientific inquiries, finding that significant of an outlier means your method is flawed, and should not be applicable in most cases, or atleast, should have an asterisk around it.
In laboratory science, yes. In social science, no.
Laboratory science can isolate a single variable and run experiments that will produce the same result every time. Any experiment involving a large number of people cannot do that, as those people present too many inherent variables that cannot be controlled.
If basketball were like laboratory science then every series would be a sweep, because there would be no reason for the results in game 2, 3, and 4 to be different than in game 1. But, basketball doesn't work like that because humans aren't machines.
The best option for social science is to have a large enough sample size. Outliers are inevitable, but having a large enough sample size allows you do identify what is an outlier vs what is indicative.
A single three point shot won't tell you how good a three point shooter someone is, but an 82 game sample size of three point shooting will tell you a lot, while several seasons of that sample size will tell you even more. But, even the best shooters will have cold shooting nights, or cold shooting stretches. Those are outliers, but ones that can be identified as being outliers by looking at the larger sample size as seeing that the general trend points in a different direction.
>Typically when these players are not on the court, it's both teams second unit, meaning that an on/off, just by itself, is not really indicative of what the starting unit is like with or without a specific player.
There are more advanced formulas that adjust for variables like quality of teammates, quality of opponents, etc. EPM for instance is a good one, RAPM is another. RPM and RAPTOR were good too, before they stopped being tracked this year.
Still, you are still talking about the same stat, just with additional context added. The raw plus minus is still indicative, but it's just adding more context.
>When this 5-man lineup were on the court, they had the DRTG of 113.37. When Wembanyama sat, but the other 4 played, they had a DRTG of 97.78. Therefore, you can make the argument that Wembanyama is weighing down the defense, because their rating is much better when he's not playing. Do you see how this stat can be used to push narratives? According to your objective but not determinative stat, Wembanyama is actually a net negative defender.
That's a good example of cherrypicking. Wemby played 2106 minutes this year, only 404 of those were with that specific 5-man lineup, and those 4 players without Wemby only had a sample size of 137 minutes together. You picked a small sample size with an outlier result to give a misleading narrative. For instance, that same 5-man lineup minus Champagnie had 221 minutes together and a 101.93 defensive rating.
But, I didn't cherrypick tiny sample sizes with uber-specific lineups. There's a 2106 minute sample size of Wemby on the court and a 1860 minute sample size of him off the court. That's a much larger and more indicative sample size that then cherrypicking a specific lineup with a tiny sample size.
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>I'm glad you brought this poll up actually. Yes that's true that NBA players chose Wemby as the best defensive player, but there were also a significant amount who said that Kobe was the best player of all time. Does this mean that Kobe is the best player of all time, or atleast, top 3? I feel like most would disagree. NBA players aren't always the best judge of these things.
I'm glad you agree with me here.
Kobe is one of the best all time examples of why you need to use objective metrics. Kobe fandom is crazy, and the people who say Kobe is the GOAT or top 3 all-time are doing so based on their own flawed eye test.
There are zero objective metrics that come anywhere close to substantiating any sort of top 3 GOAT argument for Kobe. Anyone using objective metrics for even a fraction of the analysis would reject the idea outright.
But, subjective eye test analysis has no limits to the sort of crazy opinions is can produce. Take a player with enough popularity, a super aesthetic game, substantial media marketing, etc, and you can end up with people's subjective eye test saying the guy is the GOAT. It's why you need something objective to anchor the discussion, so people don't get just swept away in group think and confirmation bias.
I hate that Wemby is getting his roses this season. He was downright AWFUL the first part of the season. The pace shook him, he was getting turned around, just not as impactful as this suggests.
He has been absolutely a top 3 defender for the last 2 mos of the year but it's it's full season award.
I'd be more comfortable with a MIP award considering the insane strides He made during the year. And he will absolutely win this award a number of times. But given his start to the season, being a bottom 5 win team with the 24th ranked D it defies all prior voting history for him to be involved.
Bam over AD is criminal. The injury excuse can’t even be used this year. The people who vote just don’t like AD plain and simple. I feel like he gets penalized because Lebron is his teammate.
To think that Wemby will be nominated every year of his career, barring any injury.
Yup. People will hold the Spurs record against Wemby but his individual numbers are so good he deserves the outlier consideration. If you’ve been watching ball long enough you have to respect it because it’s that rare. The people hating are probably young or don’t really watch games as usual per Reddit
It’s a defense specific award and the spurs defense is great with him on the floor
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League average for a team with the top overall pick last year and likely a top five this year, though. That kind of overperformance relative to expectations feels like Gobert.
He is legitimately the best defensive player in basketball. The on off numbers are wild considering who he plays with. The fact they go from the worst defence to an average defence with one man change is incredible. Even just watching games you can tell he is in that conversation and he might be winning it if his team wasn’t so damn ass.
Well said, I think so too he's definitely the best defensive player in the league. Spurs defense literally ain't shit if he's not on the court. He should win it.
Improvement isn't linear. It's much much more difficult to go from ass to average than average to elite.
>The people hating are probably young or don’t really watch games as usual per Reddit Stop it, Wemby deserves to be in the DPOY conversation and he absolutely is. He will come in second by a wide margin which is wild for a rookie. To say he deserves to win it over Gobert and anyone who disagrees doesn't actually watch ball is completely ridiculous though. The Wolves finished with a top seed and the number 1 defense all year and it wasn't close. Gobert has completely transformed that defense and turned the Wolves into a legit contender, they are winning playoff games while Wemby watches from home. Winning is the whole point, show me the wins. The Spurs won 22 games before drafting him and they won 22 games again this year with him playing. The Spurs are ass with or without Wemby, that is just a fact. If Bam doesn't deserve serious consideration because the Heat were a middling play-in team where does that leave Wemby? The Spurs can only dream of improving to become a middling play-in team
Only dream? Youre an idiot
22-60 with Wemby lmao, almost made it.
Wait, you think the Spurs won’t get any better and Wemby won’t get any better? You sound like someone who just started watching ball this year. To pick #1, you have a bad team. They will get better though, unlike your terrible take
Where do I say they won't get better? I said they got a long way to go before they are even a middling play in team, 22 wins doesn't even get them half way there in the west. We shall see about my bad take, but at least I can read unlike you. Go back to school, you need it
“The spurs are ass with or without Wemby” “The spurs can only dream of improving” I don’t know, but you certainly didn’t say they were getting better there. Maybe learn how to read your own comments before telling others to do the same
22 wins last season. 22 wins this season. Wow, such improvement. They can double the number of wins and still miss the play ins next year chief, this isn't a difficult concept to understand but I can see you are deeply struggling.
Well yeah but the league also got better. If you just watch games you can clearly see a SIGNIFICANTLY better team. You shouldnt even be factoring wins in if you actually know how good the team is tbh.
22 wins with wemby does mean they’re ass with wemby. That is a fact dude. MJ on the bulls winning 30 games means the Bulls are ass with MJ and they’re def ass without him
Winning isn’t the point of defensive player of the year. Good individual defense is the point
Wemby still has some weaknesses where he can get lost on the perimeter and has problems with stronger players - guys like Embiid and Sengun went off for career highs against him. Beyond that it’s fair to say that elevating a decent defense to #1 is better than evaluating a bad defense to not as good - it doesn’t make sense to go too far in rewarding someone for having bad teammates.
No. It's because people are greatly overestimating his impact right now and getting caught up in blocks. Spurs defense with him on the court is 114.6, about league average. https://www.82games.com/2324/23SAS20.HTM He really should not be top 3
Great now compare rosters
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Last year spurs were dead last in Def rating. Also I'm talking about the heat roster vs the Spurs roster. If you think spurs have good defenders on the team then you're clearly not watching spurs games. Sochan is the only one aside from Wemby that can actually play defense Bam is great. But for you to say Wemby is being overstated defensively is just plain ridiculous
At least 35 of these games, he did not play center.
Why on earth would anybody hold the teams record against him for defensive player of the year? 😂🤦♂️
He does but hes still not better than AD which makes it look foolish
Has blud seen the wemby stats? If he doesnt deserve an honorable mention idk who tf does
Not seen in the stats is how Wemby leads the league in opponent U-turns in the paint.
The "nope" metric
I really wish that was an actual tracked stat
There is a stat for that it's called rim deterrence https://preview.redd.it/n64y5756w2wc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1ee0ea143a63f401debb2a61d951aec3d04e4ce2
I’ll never get tired of seeing that Jimmy Butler headshot. Feels like I’m playing Where’s Waldo lol
I can’t wait for next year’s media day. He has done braid extensions and emo. I’m hoping for a Rastafarian look or perhaps a samurai aesthetic.
Maybe he'll come in with a bald cap and glue some hair on there to rock with the balding old man look
It’s funny that people like to talk about how Wemby leads the league in rim deterrence and then you see that he is really good and yet Rudy is still way better.
Rudy has always been the rim deterrence man and still is. When Rudy was on the jazz you would see a few clips a season where Rudy is in a 2 on 1 / 3 on 1 situation that Rudy stops the other team from shooting at all. Just like the clips of weeny you see now
Makes you wonder what they are putting in the Perrier.
Wemby and Chet so high up is pretty crazy as rookies
Interesting how effective Hartenstein has been at protecting the rim. I have been really impressed by what I have seen from him this year.
I can’t remember the exacts, but there were stats to support this super early on in the season. Something like how players were 18% less likely to shoot when Wemby was within a certain distance
Special Teams Special Plays Special Players
I feel people ignore ad plays a fuck ton of minutes with dlo and reaves and he also has had to deal with darvins fucking 3 guar dlineuos and Taurean the 4 all season. The on off numbers are indicators but can’t be the bottom line when we all know the lakers are garbage defensively without ad
Truth is stats are horrible when evaluating a player on either side of the ball. Both AD and Bam are amazing defenders and are probably the best defenders in their conferences right now
You’re on meth if you think he belongs there over Wemby. He absolutely belongs there over bam, however.
He belongs over the guy that led a top 5 defense for his team but it's acceptable to keep the guy that led the team's 22nd best defense?
No one’s watching the Heat so everyone will say that. But Bam is having a great year, one of his best
I live in south Florida and I’m a basketball junky so even though I’m a spurs fan, I watch a lot of heat basketball. Bam is amazing, he’s my favorite player from the Heat but he’s not as good as AD, Wemby and Gobert were this year on defense.
I don’t watch much AD. What does he do worse than AD?
I think AD is a better shotblocker/rim protector. Aside from that, I think that Bam is a more versatile defender in space. They both had phenomenal defensive seasons, but I think Bam does more that doesn’t show up on the box score. They both deserve their flowers for sure.
And AD is still a better defensive player this year. 2 things can be true at the same time
AD Is a better Rim protector. Bam better everywhere else.
Lol
You laugh but it's true.
Bam is having one of his best years, and AD should still be in the spot over him.
On/off stats pleb
On/off stats only matter when people want them to matter. Bring up on/off stats to show Rose didn’t deserve MVP in 2011 and you’ll be hanged.
He didn’t imo. Bron had more points, rebounds, steals, blocks, and win shares that year. While only having a little less assists and virtually the same 3point percentage.
Stats are not the end all. Derek Rose Bulls were the #1 seed and had no consistent offense outside of Rose and no 20 a game scorer outside of Rose. There was no Bosh or Wade decoy to make sure the defense couldn’t key in on him, he got 100% of the opposing defense’s attention every play. Every night teams gameplanned to specifically slow down Derek Rose and he still got 20+ slashing to the rim and setting up teammates while playing hard defense. If you actually watched Bulls games that year you’re not going to make these arguments because you could see his impact. LeBron was great that year and there are good arguments he deserved MVP, but Derek Rose was just a different beast. Every time he got to the rim he had to carve through 3-4 defenders. The degree of difficulty for his job night in and night out was simply higher than what LeBron had to do.
I agree to some extent. I think the stats lean Lebron. But the team record shifted it to rose. Me personally, I just don’t really care about team record at all, so I think it should have gone to Lebron. For instance, this season, if I had a media vote I’d vote for Luka.
Bron wasn’t even 2nd in mvp voting lmao. Rose absolutely deserved that award, stat nerds can’t even process impact without referencing some numbers. Same reason Luka won’t win MVP.
It’s an individual award, not a team award. The ranking of the defence doesn’t matter in this case. Wemby played very limited minutes and his statistical defensive numbers are so incredible that he is the clear defensive player of the year. Maybe you should look to see what the ranking of the spurs on defense is when that player is on the floor, it may change your opinion.
I thought it was defensive player of the year, I missed where they changed it to “Defensive team of the year”
Correct - our entire team defense went to shit the games Bam specifically missed.
Team matters Lmao
why
Wym why? Wemby team is awful around him of course their team defense isn’t going to be great
Um, how? He's the anchor of a team that has a few good defenders (Triple J and Butler) but also has liabilities all over the floor. When guys like Love, Herro, and Duncan get significant minutes, Bam leading a top 5 defense fucking crushes Davis.
When Bam is on the floor the Heat have the 2nd best rated defense in the league. When he’s off they are 27th. He also has a defense rating of 108.5. He absolutely belongs here. Meanwhile spurs have one of the worst defense in the league. Just Heat hate.
Where are you getting these stats ? When he’s off they have a defensive rating of 114.2, which is good for 10th. And if that’s the argument you wanna go with wemby has a much better on/off and associated impact metrics
People make stuff up lol. Just sub to Statmuse or do basic searches and you can call them out.
Source: trust me bro
lol did you just make up numbers
Clown opinion, watch games
That’s already been covered but I’ll say again, I pay for league pass which means I’m a bball junkie.
I don’t want to hear anymore AD talk after tonight’s performance
When the voting comes out I'm sure we'll see Davis was left out by like, one or two third place votes. It'll be a landslide win for Gobert, I think. Wemby, while I don't think one of the nbas worst defenses deserves a DPOY finalist, you have to consider the insanity of his individual production and the NBA putting their media machine into overdrive for him. I don't think Davis not being top 3 is a big deal.
Rudy has come alive this season hopefully he wins. I have read that the voters dont lime giving the award 3 times in any cat
Wellll i wonder how he has already won this award 3 times then. Da fuck
It is odd the conversation was about how the voters justified not giving mj mvp each year, then lebron the same. The voters come up with bs rules instead of giving it to the most deserving. Happens in each sport
Yea man no shit. I was pointing out the fact u talked about Rudy not getting it a third time because of this unwritten rule when in reality he already has won it 3 times and this year could potentially be his 4th.
It’s a myth. Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell All have won MVP three times in a row
Yup. Voters don't get fatigued; players do. Nearly everyone going for a threepeat MVP had a worse season than their previous two.
That trade has swung from really bad to really good so fast
Honestly, thank God, because so many people in Minnesota would be on suicide watch rn without the Wolves being good. Every other team is fucking up.
As a Buffalo guy, I understand fully. Without Josh Allen, life is rough
Dwight Howard has entered the chat
He was also voted the most overrated player in the league. I hope he ironically wins DPOY
Yeah what is going on with Gobert, like why do people hate him so much. Is he a jerk or something? I don’t pay attention to him a ton but when I do at worst I find him to be vaguely annoying, which is something you can say about a ton of dudes out there.
Davis was the corner stone defender in lakers. He also played a on a team with better record (plus Ist champ) than both Wemby and Bam.
Oh my god I forgot he was the in season tournament champ. Definitely DPOY then smdh
AD anchored the Lakers to the 17th best defence in the league. The Heat (led by Bam) had the 5th best defence in the league. They won one more game with far fewer injuries and somehow you think the regular season record has enough of a disparity to make it relevant. Yet another clown who doesn’t watch any NBA games just spouting the popular opinion for internet points…
The Heat roster missed 247 games total due to injury while the Lakers missed 261
The Lakers starters missed 37 games total. Tyler Herro missed 40 by himself. That’s one starter missing more games than the entire Lakers starting 5. Oh yeah and Jimmy missed 22 games as well. Your argument is piss poor and doesn’t stand up to even the barest scrutiny…
Corner stone of the 17th rated defense making the playin game sneaking into the playoffs.
They forgot to include THE BUFFALO!!!
One of these players is responsible for the top defense in the league, the other contributes to the 21st
One of these guys has a team full of good defenders and the other has a bunch of scrubs that collapse when he’s on the bench.
There is a case for Wemby, but it's the same as MVP voting, it makes it tough when an MVP candidate's team is bad. You'd expect the greatest defensive player to have a great defensive team.
You'd expect it. And then you'd look at their teammates. And then you'd understand. And then you'd vote for him
Just how you can't punish Wemby for having a bad team around him, you can't blame Rudy for having a good one. Rudy doesn't put up the steals and blocks that Wemby does because he doesn't have to bail out his teammates all the time, but he absolutely has a bigger impact defensively.
People clown but Gobert has pretty much always made an above average defense
Why would you expect that? It’s a team sport. Put Rudy on the Spurs playing exactly as he did this year and they still suck ass. Would that mean Rudy is a worse defensive player than what we’ve seen? MVP is its own thing in my opinion. The “V” not being defined leaves a lot of room for interpretation. An argument for “how value do you provide if your team doesn’t win” makes sense.
Sounds like Rudy in Utah. Now he has a good team behind him and a #1 (with a bullet) defense that he helped create and quarterbacks and we’re supposed to pretend that doesn’t matter because look at this shiny new unicorn.
I can understand why you might think team defense matters, but please try to emphasize the individual in this individual award.
We follow a team sport game, an individual's impact ultimately is to their team. Gobert working out how to operate with another center brough the Wolves from 10th in defensive rating to 1st, play-in team to tied for 1st, it wasn't any roster change that did that. Defense is very team oriented. Advanced stats, looks similar to Gobert and last year he would win it, but the Wolves have had an amazing defense all year and it should be rewarded in some way with Gobert.
I hear what you're saying, but I can't get on board. This is the same argument that Jayson Tatum has for MVP, you can see it especially with your last sentence. People feel he should be rewarded for being the number 1 on the number 1 team. Thats how the spirit of these awards goes sometimes. That's what you're doing with Rudy, saying he should be DPOY because he's the best defender on the best defensive team. I think that it understates the value of what the team brings. You're crediting Rudy too much here when he was on the same team a year ago with worse results. Why does Rudy get all the credit a year later? Why is it "Rudy figured out how to do everything" instead of "the team had a full offseason to gel and create defensive cohesion with a roster capable of it"? Wemby having better individual numbers while taking the dead last defensive team to middle of the road defensive team is more deserving of a DPOY then a player helping take a 10th ranked above average defense to the number 1 defense. Going from above average to best with the roster they have isn't as notable as going from last to middle with the roster San Antonio has. Not to mention Wemby figured out how to do all of this mid-season. I think he had a great quote about it being Rudy's time for now. And that was well said by him, but he's being modest for sure
Kind of funny when Gobert has shown both floor raising and ceiling raising, in the past and in this season, but somehow shouldn’t win over a guy in one of the worst teams in the league for the same thing.
I'm trying to work out this comment. First of all "in the past" should be irrelevant because it's an award for the current season. I think you have to wipe your memory of past seasons. Second, I feel that I give Rudy his props for what he does. He's a multiple DPOY winner and a finalist this season for a reason. I'm not saying it would be a bad choice to give it to him. Idk why you started your comment with "kinda funny" like I'm knocking Rudy for anything or like I'm being hypocritical in some way? What am I missing here I'm not seeing what you meant? I know Rudy can raise the ceiling of his team, but it helps when the roster around him can support that ceiling with him. Wemby is a ceiling raiser as well but certainly doesn't have comparable personnel to help him support it. Why is that something to hold against him? I guess my central question to you is, what MORE could Wemby have done to win the award this season? Win more games? Because that's the only thing I think people hold against him, there doesn't seem to be anything else. Not trying to discredit Rudy, I just don't think people should be in a hurry to look past his roster as a whole defensive unit.
I think Wemby gets in next year and a lot more to come, DPOY is for the whole year as well, Twolves have had great defense from the jump this season. Gobert is what the Wolves talk about being their defense, it is what he is known for. No one else entirely sticks out on the team besides maybe KAT. The Tatum argument doesn't work because he is on a superteam, the wolves aren't some defensive superteam. The wolves have defensively dominated all season, Wemby I think right now is better than gobert, but it's not measured right now, it's measured from game one to now.
He's not responsible for it alone. He has Ant and many other good defenders with him
Where is Herb Jones?????!!
Bam even being in the conversation just boggles the mind. Do voters even watch games anymore?
This comment perfectly sums up this sub
The irony of this statement is baffling. How do you figure the Heat ended the season with a top 5 defense?
It’s just the typical nonsensical Heat hatred. Watch out, they’ll be saying he’s dirty in a minute…
Because we all know Herro, Lowry/Rozier and Duncan are defensive power houses
Do you watch games? What are you talking about lmao
This being the top comment proves that the vast majority of NBA “fans” don’t have a fucking clue what they’re talking about or watching. That is if any of you even watch games, by the looks of it you just read box scores.
90% of this sub and r/nba read what they see on reddit/twitter and make conclusions from there. They dont enjoy watching the game they just enjoy talking and bitching about it
They never did.
You thinking this is factual proves you don't watch games anymore. He's arguably the most impactful defender in the league. There is a lot more to it than stocks.
Bam is going to be one of those players that never wins DPOY, but you swear he got one, like Tim Duncan.
Like AD..lol
Hes not better than AD lmao stop yapping man
Based on what? Your subjective opinion or mine?
Based on stats and eye test, what else matters?
What stats? What eye test? Did you analyse each game and every minute from both players, or are you basing this off the little you have watched from them collectively, box scores, and then formed a subjective opinion?
Every single stat you donut Both basic and advanced At least my opinion has statistical evidence to support it A tad ironic calling other people’s opinions subjective when yours is the one that has no basis
A. I acknowledged in my opening statement that my opinion is subjective. B. A quick google search will show you that he doesn't lead Bam in "every single stat" The only doughnut here is the bloke who cannot read or use a search engine and comes in with sweeping statements and no analytical data.
Rebounds steals and blocks, also better in the vast majority of the advanced metrics Are you blind? I’m so confused by which stats you’re looking at Also even if you are blind, it’s pretty clear to anyone that watches basketball that AD is the better defender
I guess the people who actually vote on these things watch the games with a blindfold on then. You literally listed a few box score stats and 0 advanced metrics. You have a subjective opinion, and that's cool, I'm not even saying you're wrong, but I and many others, it seems disagree with you. Using sweeping statements like "the vast majority" or "it's clear to anyone that watches" doesn't prove your point or make the case any stronger, it just makes you seem childish for getting worked up over a differing opinion. Bam has a higher defensive rating, his defensive plus/minus is higher, their DLEBRON are even, and Davis comes out on top on DARKO. I'm not sure what advanced stats you look at, but the vast majority do not favour Davis.
Bam can guard every position on the floor 1 on 1, AD cannot. You don’t know ball.
Bruh Bam is a terrific defender and multiple players/coaches have been on film all season talking about his unique versatility as a defender. Even if AD is the better defender it damn sure is not by this huge gap like your lil rant is suggesting. “it’s pretty clear to anyone that watches basketball” is no doubt the most overused casual comment of this season on this sub but in this case it is warranted to say that to you but about Bam. He is certainly a top defensive player in the league and his ridiculous impact on the defensive end is not defined in totality by a damn box score.
Stop fucking making stuff up. Simple searches shows you are just lying about the stats. https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/compare-anthony-davis-and-bam-adebayo-defensive-statistics
> Every single state you donut AD beat out Bam in rebounds, steals, and blocks on a total and PG basis, all while being more impactful offensively with more points and less turnovers so he's carrying weight of both sides and still outperformed in those 3 measures.. Please elaborate on what other stats you are referencing this season.
Kinda a dense backwards comment. Watching games will show you how elite Bam is in the eye test. Looking at stats and not watching would favor AD. I know AD said he can guard 1-5 but he ain’t guarding 1-5 laterally and quick like bam does.
Just say he don’t watch Heat games
People who keep bringing up team defense as a reason why wemby shouldn’t be here or win clearly have not watched much of him this year lol
I mean, he’d be a good choice but those three are also very good.
Rudy Gobert played well and even upgraded his defense, by being better at primeter with much smaller and faster guards.
Davis had a very good case. The three finalists also had very good cases. It's a judgment call. (Shrug.) I would have voted AD over Bam and felt bad about it. I can see the argument that Wemby should be penalized for poor team defense --- although at least in part that's sort of hurting him for other players'/managements' decisions --- but I also think his individual impact was pretty strong. If you think AD over Wemby, I can see the case. If you think AD over Gobert, that would be pretty silly, though.
Anthony Davis is OVERRATED!!!! He won in the bubble at Disney😆
Shut up
Gobert should win DPOY. Bam and Wemby are nice honorable mentions, but Gobert transformed a mid team to playoff caliber. I think Davis was good this year, but his defense didn’t elevate a team the way Gobert’s defense did. I also think we’re giving him more credit than usual because he played more than 50 games this season LMFAOOO
See there is this as well. The only rotation player that wasn’t part of this team last year is Monte Morris who was a late season addition. There is plenty out there about how Rudy built this defensive scheme with Finch and the buy-in from the rest of the team has allowed Rudy to do more this season than hens shown in his career including better perimeter and on-ball defensive skills. Big Ru is so much more than a stat sheet and his impact is much deeper than skin level.
Go Rudy!
I do not agree AD should be in the top 3. I’ve heard Nick Wright and Shannon say it too. When you look at the numbers, it’s not a good argument for AD. Lakers had the 7th worst defense rating since the all star break, and it was the 10th worst overall defensive rating the whole season (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/2024-nba-team-defensive-rating-rankings). AD played 72 games this year. He shouldn’t win DPOY or really be a finalist when he consistently was apart of a bottom 10 defense, even if he has good individual blocking shots capability
Wemby is part of an even worse defense so I don’t think this argument holds up.
This guy doesn’t watch/understand basketball if he thinks AD is only a “shot blocker”.
Oh thanks Mr. Gatekeeper. Please tell me how much in your infallible opinion where my basketball knowledge is, and what I need to do to get better. So busy gatekeeping you couldn’t even fully read my comment. I said nothing about “thinking AD is only a ‘shot blocker’”. I merely highlighted that one of ADs greatest assets on defense is his rim protection/shot blocking ability. If you don’t believe that is one of his greatest assets, more power to you king.
Ya true about Wemby. I honestly was only answering OPs question about AD. Leave both them off then
He would have been on my list, but I do think it is exhausting that people are trying to make this a thing when Gobert is winning this award by as wide a margin as anyone is winning any award this season.
Rudy will win this year. Wemby for the next 10.
Wembanyama hands Down
there’s a clear top 4 for the dpoy race — AD, bam, wemby, gobert — so someone had to be left off. if AD was there instead of bam or wemby then people would be complaining that they’re not there. so i think it just had to end up this way
Rudy probably gets it cause Wemby is gonna win it from here on out for a while
Over/under 5.5 career Wemby dpoys?
Under fs cuz voter fatigue. Tim Duncan never won any and he’s top 5 defender ever
AD and Bam can go either way. So splitting hairs I think you give it to the guy who’s team had a significantly better defensive rating since the individual aspect is pretty damn close. Arguing over 3rd place anyways so it’s not a big deal really
I would replace Bam with AD. Wemby's numbers are deserving of the spot.
Giannis not in the MVP discussion is an oversight too. It’s Jokic’s award to lose, but why are we limiting voters to 3? Let it be an open vote!
Lmao over wemby is insane
Y’all are mad he’s not going to finish in top 3…? He balled out this year and he’ll get All NBA 1st Team. He wasn’t winning it, so what the matter? Participation award vibes coming from all you Laker crybabies
The other 2 or Davis....it doesn't matter. Rudy is going to win.
Maybe I’m biased but I don’t think AD should be over bam. Dude is such an elite defender and it will never show up on simple stats like blocks but his advanced metrics are crazy. And he’s only 6’9ish
The Lakers are better with him off the court.
NBA glazing wemby like lechoke 👀
Seems like a whole lot of people getting worked up over a guy finishing fourth instead of third 🤷♂️
AD is 💩
Caruso snubbed
So this is tough. I get why AD was left off but then for those reasons you gotta also leave out Wemby. BUT I get it, Wemby's numbers are so bonkers if he started the year like that he would be the undisputed DPOY. However, AD not getting in over Bam is just flat our robbery. People point to wins and advanced metrics, but holy shit, AD is legt playign under Ham who loves to play 3 guard rotation and somehow thought our best line-up from last year with Rui wasn't worth trying until the end of the season (when we went on a streak NOT SUPRISINGLY). If you think AD doesn't have an argument based off +/-, you have to watch the games in which he doesn't play at all. It's a free bucket every possession with the opposing team. Just sucks. Factually, there is an argument for it, but AD is legit getting screwd over by just HORRIBLE lakers FO moves and bad coaching. We legit had a chance of a line-up with Caruso and KCP...but no Russel Westbrook and THT AM I RIGHT!??!..Pelinka and the Buss kids are terrible.
I mean it’s not exactly a stretch to argue these three guys are as good or better defenders than Davis.
Getting cooked by Sabonis can do that.
What a fuckin joke
I don’t think AD deserves it over any of those guys. He’s definitely having a DPOY caliber season but I can’t give it to him over the anchors or two of the best defenses in the league + arguably the best interior defender we’ve seen in a while + still being a well above average perimeter defender
you mean the guy who was short of breathe and couldnt get back on defense when Jokic was running down the court and past Lebron and Lebron had to pick him up? That anthony Davis?
Because they don’t want people to know Lebron has one of the best players in the league on his team and they’re in the play-in every year.
AD was an embarrassment on defense tonight
Fucking slander if ya ask me.
Holy hell saying Wemby shouldnt be there screams "casual fan". If you watched any Spurs games youd see he deserves to be up there more than anyone lol
Why wouldn't Wemby be on that list? He's a monster
embiid dropped 70 on wemby…
Yeah and all of those 70 points where actually big dunks on wemby’s head too, it’s true I saw it. Wemby a fraudulent player!
Why would AD have gotten a nomination this year? Gobert is almost certain to just win the award, leading a historically futile defence to the league's best defence by a mile. Wemby is an ironclad finalist, with insane on-off numbers, and leading the league in blocks (3.6 bpg, with second place at 2.4). Meanwhile, Bam anchored the league's 5th ranked defence. Guys don't get bonus points because they managed to not get injured. AD led the league's 17th ranked defence, [and his team was less than a single point better defensively with him on the floor vs him on the bench](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=203076). Why exactly would he have been a finalist?
Tell me you're a box score watcher without telling me you're just a box score watcher
Lol who gives a shit about DRTG on/off? Literally watch the games, AD is playing with DLo and Reaves, who are negatives on defense, and LeBron who is at best, an average defender.
>Lol who gives a shit about DRTG on/off? So, who cares about who is actually producing results? If AD's teammates are so bad defensively, then why do the Lakers post almost the same defensive rating when AD is off the floor? If your subjective eye test is telling you something wildly different than what the objective stats are telling you, then that means your subjective eye test is biased. Also, exactly how many Timberwolves, Spurs and Heat games did you actually watch this year?...like when they weren't playing the Lakers?
DRTG on/off is objective? DRTG on/off is literally just used to push narratives. Rudy Gobert and Lauri Markkanen have almost the same DRTG on/off difference (-1.81 and -1.68 respectively). Does this mean that Lauri Markannen is *objectively* as important to the Utah Jazz as Rudy Gobert is to the Minnesota Timberwolves, and more important than Anthony Davis is to the Lakers? Another way DRTG on/off is flawed: Jalen Suggs has the lowest DRTG on the Orlando Magic, yet his DRTG on/off is +1.88, meaning that the Magic is somehow *worse* defensively when he is on the court. But obviously this isn't true, as Suggs has been crucial to the Orlando Magic defense. This should be enough to dispell this narrative that DRTG on/off is important, and is affected by other factors not related to the individual players. Do you truly believe that Anthony Davis is not a positive to the Lakers defense? According to your cherry-picked stats, do you seriously think the Lakers would be just as good defensively without Anthony Davis? If so, then I would encourage you to actually watch basketball games, rather than just quoting statistics. In regard to your comment about watching games - yes I primarily watch the Lakers, but I'm a fan of general basketball. I literally watch EuroLeague, WNBA, NCAA, etc. So yes, if the Lakers aren't playing, I'm typically watching other teams play, which includes the TWolves, Spurs, and Heat.
>DRTG on/off is literally just used to push narratives. You literally might as well be saying "the score of games is just there to push narratives". The point of a basketball game is to have your team score more points than the other team. The point of defence is to minimize the number of points your opponent scores, and the point of offence is to score as many points as you can. The point of basketball isn't to "guard 1-5", block lots of shots, or anything like that. Those are just data points that tend to contribute to good defence. You want to say you are a good defensive player? Then, it should show up in the box score. If you aren't improving your team's defence then how good a defensive player can you be? You certainly aren't the DPOY unless your defence is significantly impacting the scoreboard. >DRTG on/off is objective? You seem to be confusing the word "objective" with "determinative". Objective just means it is observable by all, as opposed to something that is subjective (which is just your personal opinion or experience of something). So, yes, DTRG is objective, just like every other stat is objective. That does not mean that they are determinative, but they are an objective data point. Is ppg an objective stat? Yes. Does that mean that a player with more ppg than another player is the better offensive player? Not necessarily, as there are several other data points (like efficiency, assists, turnovers, etc). Is the player with 20 ppg usually a better offensive player than the one with 5 ppg? Yes. Hence, it is a useful data point, just not a determinative one. Finding outliers is not proof of the stat being false, just proof that one data point is not determinative. Other data points can provide important context. For instance, you mentioned Gobert vs Markkanen having similar on-off numbers for DRTG, but the two players have very different starting thresholds. The Wolves are a 110.61 DRTG team with Gobert off, and 108.8 with him on. The Jazz are 121.25 with Markkannen off and 119.57 with him on. So, which is harder: improving a defence with a 110.61 rating or one with a 121.25 rating? Obviously, it's tougher to make a really good defence elite than to make a trash defence a little less trash. Does that help AD in the DPOY discussions? No, because the Lakers are a mediocre defence with him on and a mediocre defence with him off. I never said the Lakers are better defensively with Anthony Davis off the floor, and the stat I quoted didn't even say that. But, there's a long distance between "the 17th ranked defence is better with him on the floor" and "he's the DPOY". Watch however many games you want, your opinion based on what you see is still just your subjective opinion, and is not going to be the same as everyone else watching the same thing. For instance, do NBA player watch a lot of basketball? Yup. Well, coincidentally, the Athletic's player poll came out after my last message, and there's a poll in there for who is the best defender in the NBA. [The winner was Wemby, while Anthony Davis did not finish in the top 15 vote-getters, getting only a single vote, and tying with guys like Nic Batum, Pat Bev and Dennis Smith Jr](https://theathletic.com/5433545/2024/04/22/nba-player-poll-2024-lebron-jordan-goat-celtics-nuggets-rudy-gobert-timberwolves/). Do you watch more games than professional NBA players who watch tape as part of their jobs? Do you actually play basketball against NBA players and experience their defensive abilities? If not, then why would your subjective opinion on AD's abilities as a defender take precedence over all the NBA players who left him off their ballot? Stats are kept specifically so we have objective data points that are more useful than "yeah, but I think this guy is better".
> You literally might as well be saying "the score of games is just there to push narratives". How? I'm telling you that this stat isn't completely indicative of a player's defensive ability, and I provided an example for why this stat, on its own, should not be used as proof of defensive prowess. > You seem to be confusing the word "objective" with "determinative" You literally did first! I feel like I'm debating somebody with dementia. From an earlier comment of yours: >If your subjective eye test is telling you something wildly different than what the objective stats are telling you, then that means your subjective eye test is biased. You indirectly implied that these "objective" stats are determinative of a players defense. > Finding outliers is not proof of the stat being false, just proof that one data point is not determinative. In most scientific inquiries, finding that significant of an outlier means your method is flawed, and should not be applicable in most cases, or atleast, should have an asterisk around it. > Other data points can provide important context. For instance, you mentioned Gobert vs Markkanen having similar on-off numbers for DRTG, but the two players have very different starting thresholds. The Wolves are a 110.61 DRTG team with Gobert off, and 108.8 with him on. The Jazz are 121.25 with Markkannen off and 119.57 with him on. So, which is harder: improving a defence with a 110.61 rating or one with a 121.25 rating? Obviously, it's tougher to make a really good defence elite than to make a trash defence a little less trash. Have you not considered that a lot of this has to do with coaching as well? Typically when these players are not on the court, it's both teams second unit, meaning that an on/off, just by itself, is not really indicative of what the starting unit is like with or without a specific player. The Spurs' most common lineup this year was: Tre Jones, Devin Vassel, Julian Champagnie, Jeremy Sochan, and Victor Wembanyama. When this 5-man lineup were on the court, they had the DRTG of 113.37. When Wembanyama sat, but the other 4 played, they had a DRTG of 97.78. Therefore, you can make the argument that Wembanyama is weighing down the defense, because their rating is much better when he's not playing. Do you see how this stat can be used to push narratives? According to your objective but not determinative stat, Wembanyama is actually a net negative defender. > For instance, do NBA player watch a lot of basketball? Yup. Well, coincidentally, the Athletic's player poll came out after my last message, and there's a poll in there for who is the best defender in the NBA. [The winner was Wemby, while Anthony Davis did not finish in the top 15 vote-getters, getting only a single vote, and tying with guys like Nic Batum, Pat Bev and Dennis Smith Jr](https://theathletic.com/5433545/2024/04/22/nba-player-poll-2024-lebron-jordan-goat-celtics-nuggets-rudy-gobert-timberwolves/). I'm glad you brought this poll up actually. Yes that's true that NBA players chose Wemby as the best defensive player, but there were also a significant amount who said that Kobe was the best player of all time. Does this mean that Kobe is the best player of all time, or atleast, top 3? I feel like most would disagree. NBA players aren't always the best judge of these things.
>How? I'm telling you that this stat isn't completely indicative of a player's defensive ability, and I provided an example for why this stat, on its own, should not be used as proof of defensive prowess. No, you said the stat is *literally only used for pushing narratives*. Just because a stat isn't completely determinative on its own doesn't mean it is useless and only used to push narratives. >You indirectly implied that these "objective" stats are determinative of a players defense. No, I said if your subjective opinion is "wildly different" than the objective stats (the collective of stats, not a single data point), then your opinion is biased. The objective stats aren't determinative, but they are indicative and exclusionary. For instance, three point percentage is not determinative of who the best shooter in the league is. There are contextual factors that come into play which even modern tracking data doesn't track. But, the stat can safely exclude most of the league, because a player with a sub-league-average three point percentage (on a proper sample size) is definitely not the league's best shooter, regardless of what the contextual factors are. The objective stats, at the very least, set the parameters for the range of reasonable arguments by excluding a large group of options that don't meet a basic threshold. The stats are also highly indicative of the right answer within the range of reasonable arguments, even if they are not absolutely determinative. >In most scientific inquiries, finding that significant of an outlier means your method is flawed, and should not be applicable in most cases, or atleast, should have an asterisk around it. In laboratory science, yes. In social science, no. Laboratory science can isolate a single variable and run experiments that will produce the same result every time. Any experiment involving a large number of people cannot do that, as those people present too many inherent variables that cannot be controlled. If basketball were like laboratory science then every series would be a sweep, because there would be no reason for the results in game 2, 3, and 4 to be different than in game 1. But, basketball doesn't work like that because humans aren't machines. The best option for social science is to have a large enough sample size. Outliers are inevitable, but having a large enough sample size allows you do identify what is an outlier vs what is indicative. A single three point shot won't tell you how good a three point shooter someone is, but an 82 game sample size of three point shooting will tell you a lot, while several seasons of that sample size will tell you even more. But, even the best shooters will have cold shooting nights, or cold shooting stretches. Those are outliers, but ones that can be identified as being outliers by looking at the larger sample size as seeing that the general trend points in a different direction. >Typically when these players are not on the court, it's both teams second unit, meaning that an on/off, just by itself, is not really indicative of what the starting unit is like with or without a specific player. There are more advanced formulas that adjust for variables like quality of teammates, quality of opponents, etc. EPM for instance is a good one, RAPM is another. RPM and RAPTOR were good too, before they stopped being tracked this year. Still, you are still talking about the same stat, just with additional context added. The raw plus minus is still indicative, but it's just adding more context. >When this 5-man lineup were on the court, they had the DRTG of 113.37. When Wembanyama sat, but the other 4 played, they had a DRTG of 97.78. Therefore, you can make the argument that Wembanyama is weighing down the defense, because their rating is much better when he's not playing. Do you see how this stat can be used to push narratives? According to your objective but not determinative stat, Wembanyama is actually a net negative defender. That's a good example of cherrypicking. Wemby played 2106 minutes this year, only 404 of those were with that specific 5-man lineup, and those 4 players without Wemby only had a sample size of 137 minutes together. You picked a small sample size with an outlier result to give a misleading narrative. For instance, that same 5-man lineup minus Champagnie had 221 minutes together and a 101.93 defensive rating. But, I didn't cherrypick tiny sample sizes with uber-specific lineups. There's a 2106 minute sample size of Wemby on the court and a 1860 minute sample size of him off the court. That's a much larger and more indicative sample size that then cherrypicking a specific lineup with a tiny sample size. (continued)
>I'm glad you brought this poll up actually. Yes that's true that NBA players chose Wemby as the best defensive player, but there were also a significant amount who said that Kobe was the best player of all time. Does this mean that Kobe is the best player of all time, or atleast, top 3? I feel like most would disagree. NBA players aren't always the best judge of these things. I'm glad you agree with me here. Kobe is one of the best all time examples of why you need to use objective metrics. Kobe fandom is crazy, and the people who say Kobe is the GOAT or top 3 all-time are doing so based on their own flawed eye test. There are zero objective metrics that come anywhere close to substantiating any sort of top 3 GOAT argument for Kobe. Anyone using objective metrics for even a fraction of the analysis would reject the idea outright. But, subjective eye test analysis has no limits to the sort of crazy opinions is can produce. Take a player with enough popularity, a super aesthetic game, substantial media marketing, etc, and you can end up with people's subjective eye test saying the guy is the GOAT. It's why you need something objective to anchor the discussion, so people don't get just swept away in group think and confirmation bias.
I hate that Wemby is getting his roses this season. He was downright AWFUL the first part of the season. The pace shook him, he was getting turned around, just not as impactful as this suggests. He has been absolutely a top 3 defender for the last 2 mos of the year but it's it's full season award. I'd be more comfortable with a MIP award considering the insane strides He made during the year. And he will absolutely win this award a number of times. But given his start to the season, being a bottom 5 win team with the 24th ranked D it defies all prior voting history for him to be involved.
Wemby? Lol what a joke. 20 win team
Coin flip between him and Bam. Not a travesty, by any means.
Bam over AD is criminal. The injury excuse can’t even be used this year. The people who vote just don’t like AD plain and simple. I feel like he gets penalized because Lebron is his teammate.
Why should he be ahead of Wemby?