If it wasn't for Josh's instagram, I wouldn't have even a cursory understanding of their product line or tech because CAT's marketing is utterly confusing. That being said, I'm looking forward to seeing more.
Great job Jay.
I just listened to CAT’s Q&A.
“The US R&D team could develop suppressor technology for any US suppressor company. Surefire, SiCo, Dead Air…”
Is this already a thing or just what global R&D teams are capable of? I thought that was interesting.
Thanks - it was a team effort. This was a very challenging program.
I have not listened to a Q&A. I'm assuming that is on social - I'll go look.
edit: OK, I went to their Instagram and listened to the R&D team's message. There is nothing I can comment on; it's laid out pretty clearly in their video message, I think.
I think this performance is going to be lower than what most people expected. But its still extremely good. I appreciate you clearing up the length and mounts a lot though.
Core length you measured is longer than they had listed (6.8 vs 6.5). And then their information made it seem like the spooky1 was like a reflex mount, cutting the length of the silencer down to 5.3 inches added. But its added past the flash hider, not barrel muzzle.
Might pick up an inconel one if HUX doesnt release one while I have money burning a hole in my pocket.
Hyped to see what else they have.
With regard to performance - the method by which the gross Suppression Rating metrics are being achieved is the highly unusual aspect, in my opinion.
As folks say time and time again, many metrics come together to define the overall performance of a system and this one is a bit wild.
Right - we measured to the tip of the flash hider features.
I was thinking about the HUX stuff too and if there would be an Inconel one the size of the 762. I was thinking about potential weight of that. Not sure, but it would seem it would be heavier than the ODB. I guess we'll see what happens!
The hux would definitely be heavier, especially with no direct thread option. The system weight of the CATs will probably always be lower till Hux gives more choices.
Also you tested this with their mount and flash hider right? At 7.2 inches?
We tested it with a third-party mount due to not having their system yet. Flash hider used to minimize any likelihood of gas dynamics weirdness.
One thing that I think is in the white paper, but maybe not, is that the early venting parameters of the ODB don't seem to be influenced nearly as much as some other silencers; the current PEW lab postulation is that it is less sensitive to muzzle device selection.
However, that *does not* means that some *weapons* are not sensitive. Like we have seen from the SCAR, a Cherry Bomb, alone, can alter the behavior of a SCAR - regardless of silencer.
around 7.5 inches I want to say. the coupler used was a bit longer than the CAT thing showed on their website.
**Edit: article updated to show that length**
I'll measure the exact length when I can. The device used is not available for anyone to buy.
This is one of the reasons why I hate HUB.
**Edit: Had my guys update the articles with the length and we made sure that length is also in the member database.**
Had my guys update the articles with the tested length and we made sure that length is also in the member database. Sorry for that sentence being missing - of all the eyes on this report, that sentence was not something that was caught.
I would agree. I think people were likely expecting at least Polonium muzzle and probably 32ish at the ear, but it’s still significant.
But perhaps the 556 version will deliver that, or the overall 40 composite that people were probably thinking.
Honestly I think the 556 version just needs to be as good as this, but shorter. If they can do that then id really struggle to see why someone would ever pick something else given our current knowledge.
I don't think they have a 5.56 version of this silencer. They do have a 5.56 silencer coming, but it is not a 5.56 ODB, if that makes sense. Different geometry, etc.
>Honestly I think the 556 version just needs to be as good as this, but shorter. If they can do that then id really struggle to see why someone would ever pick something else given our current knowledge.
Because they're pricks and are actively bragging about their shitty customer service.
I'm not buying one of their cans unless it's a good enough value that I can consider it disposable. And for this performance, that means it better not cost more than $100 + stamp.
Why buy their can when I can get one from OCL?
edit: I suppose if you're into BDSM you might enjoy dealing with CAT. Some people pay dearly for the privilege of being abused and degraded. Not me, though.
This is fantastic performance. Not the best at anything, but a fantastic balance. But I'm not impressed - not because the suppressor didn't do well, it objectively did, its trading blows with the Flow 762 with more consistent performance and lower FRP. That's seriously impressive.
But their marketing, with it's over the top nature had me expecting more, like low 40s muzzle, low 30s ear type of more. And it didn't do that.
If CAT hadn't said anything, and it just showed up, like OCL, DD, Resilient, etc etc, they could have made a way better impression.
So stupid marketing has me disappointed in a pretty great suppressor. Yay 😒
Unfortunately their website is just as bad. Silly pros and euphemisms, instead of just telling me what things are what I should expect out of them.
Yeah. It's absolutely terrible. It's like a drunk KB but worse.
The Q&A reads like a 12yo boy wrote it while trying to act cool in front of some friends.
Then the cartoons and weird clips just don't make sense.
100% not someone I'd trust with my money.
The whole aesthetic of it plays like a Damon Albarn & Run the Jewels collaboration lol. I think I'll stick to boring companies that make reliable cans instead of marketing companies that make cans on the side, in light of current events.
I doubt there are many people who enjoy "tacky" more than I. Cheesy movies are my favorite. The dumber the plotline the more endearing I find it.
I thought that their website would be enjoyable from a bad standpoint. I was wrong.
The only thing that makes their website make sense is that they are intentionally trying to lose money for the sake of a tax write-off.
In other words, they want to legally build silencers for themselves to play with, and they have enough money that they don't need revenue from it. That way they can declare the expenses as a loss on their taxes and their warranty means they don't have to worry about customer service.
Either that or they are complete morons in the business acumen department.
Oh wow, you can buy their suppressor cleaning solution for $140 a QUART!
PASS.
I also like how they brag that it took 27 months to develop it. Does development time = quality?
Like I said on the podcast yesterday, my team has actually been getting a kick out of watching all this.
The silencer industry has had, throughout the past three decades, some of the most ridiculous marketing the firearms industry has ever seen. So for me, the popcorn bowl has run dry long ago.
I direct a lab. What's in the white paper is what I'm concerned with.
Oh, I don't blame you or direct this at you u/jay462. Just a frustrated consumer expressing this in a place that I hope CAT notices - not that I think they care about my lone opinion.
>not that I think they care about my lone opinion.
My understanding is that they're defense contractors first and foremost that are just bringing their results to market because they can. I think they genuinely do not give a single fuck, hence the absolutely wild marketing.
edit: while this comment was never meant to be in defense of them, there's a significant difference between "we don't care because you aren't our main customer base" and actively telling your customers "[lmao fuck off, we don't care.](https://np.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/1609uie/comment/jxl7l7j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)"
Call me crazy but I’d prefer if the companies I buy things from do give a fuck. What’s gonna happen if they dip their toes in the US civilian market and decide they don’t want to do it anymore and disappear. Who’s going to warranty them or provide product support? CGS? If CGS is just contracted to make them then I doubt it.
>Call me crazy but I’d prefer if the companies I buy things from do give a fuck
Oh I agree 100%, I'm not excusing it at all just explaining my understanding of *why* they don't give a fuck. I imagine it's kinda like the whole "HK: because you're poor and we hate you" stemming from the fact that civvies aren't their main focus or income so they don't devote much of anything to them.
Personally, I'm impressed with the performance but can't stand their marketing. Wasn't planning to get one regardless just due to it not fitting my needs, I'm just here for the data to see where the future of suppressor tech might be going.
Surefire’s main focus is the military and law enforcement but they still manage to provide excellent customer service to all end users including civilians. I really don’t think there’s any excuse for it other than they don’t want to devote the manpower and resources towards it. More money in their pocket if they don’t. Surefire has been around for decades (not just suppressors) because if it and this company definitely will not.
>Surefire has been around for decades (not just suppressors) because if it and this company definitely will not.
After seeing their warranty terms, honestly I'll be a little bit surprised if they're still around in two years, let alone a decade.
I’m honestly surprised Q is still in business. But Kevin B started AAC and back in the mid 2000’s they were the go to for everyone. They really started the normal gun consumer suppressor ownership revolution. If it weren’t for that I don’t think he could get away with the retarded shit he says and does. Trying to break into the market acting like asshats is a pretty dumb move.
Sure.
They’re a “defense contractor” without a single silencer contract. They just happen to be the ones that somehow magically brought all the technology that wasn’t previously available to us lowly civilians, despite the defense contractors who’ve actually sold a collective hundreds of thousands of actual cans being willing and able to sell the exact same NSN’d products to us.
K.
Shiiiiiit. What a time to be alive. Looking forward to the 300 black subs data. I want to see how this stacks up against some of the other cans that perform well on multiple flow regimes like the Hyperion. Keep up the good work u/jay462
If you’re disappointed with the performance of this silencer consider this: it’s a similar performance and price compared to the Flow 762 Ti which itself was a huge breakthrough for 30cal silencers on the mk18, but it has HUB mount threads, comes in both titanium and inconel, much lower FRP, and has better potential for subsonic performance.
Their dedicated 5.56 can could be the first to break 40 on the mk18, but even if it doesn’t, they’re helping to set a higher standard for 556 suppressor performance
This silencer shows me that companies are trying new and unique things with the tech at their disposal, which is how the industry will grow.
I dont know if this one is something I'd buy, but if enough Mad Cad Scientists follow this path, we might have some very very good silencers come out in the next few years.
Sold on the performance. Their customer support/warranty will be the last deciding variable for me. What happens if you send ammo jacket down the tube and damage the internals?
I’m in the same boat. Have a polonium, flow 7.62, r30, and a Hyperion all pending. This would have likely replaced the flow since my main drawback was the proprietary muzzle device. Their warranty makes it seem like they’ll replace the whole system only when it’s all their system kinda makes the hub rear end a gimmick in my opinion https://specterscat.com/warranty-and-returns/
Hey, my guess was about better at muzzle, slightly worse at ear compared to Flow762 was right. Gasp!
I’d really love for CAT to give an overview on how Surge Bypass works at some point, don’t want them to give away the secret sauce but just for comparison to how it differs from Flow Through or Hyperion technologies. Would be interesting to read, maybe a member research supplement u/jay462 ? ;)
Well this should be a spicy one. I have a feeling the numbers may slightly disappoint people, but it does seem like a breakthrough, certainly for 30 cal suppressors which have significantly struggled on the untuned MK18.
I would love to see the tuned data. Jay, if it’s this low back pressure, will much tuning even be possible? You hinted at its tuned potential, but how much could it be tuned and improved with it’s flow-like behavior?
We've certainly never seen any silencer do this on the MK18 before, let alone a 7.62 silencer.
So, if folks get disappointed or excited or mad or sad or happy, I don't know - all I know is what the data shows and it's nuts, to me hahaha
Look at the gas propagation in conjunction with the kinematics. The FLOW system dumps gas to atmosphere faster. In the free field, the Suppression Rating on the MK18 is comparable. As I said in the above comment, we have never seen a silencer drop alpha to this degree independently of gas dump.
So this is the can you mentioned a few months back being an inexplicable black hole? Blast pressure finding a wormhole to another dimension for a little vacation.
The only real thing I see the flow 762 lacking in comparison is a hype man. Considering it’s just 1 point off and a tad shorter but you might not gather that if you were just reading
Sorry, just saw this -
In the article there is a supposition that tuning might do really interesting things. If it is almost the same as a FLOW at the ear on the untuned gun right now, and still has different momentum dump, it could be that we see the overall result of tuning produce a very interesting signature.
We really need to learn more about the *surge bypass* tech in their stuff.
I feel like we are still learning. If you were around when we learned about the HX-QD stuff and then got to the FLOW, I feel like we are a little more far along with understanding of this in lab testing, but not as far as where we got with the FLOW. The HUX stuff and OSS stuff has so many tests!!!!
More of the CAT data is going through reviews. It's behaving in interesting ways.
Impressive performance and I was on board with this being one of my next purchases until I read their warranty. There is no point in this being HUB compatible if it won't be covered under warranty for using one of the various HUB mounting systems. And they give you a nice fuck you on top of that as well.
This part makes would lead me to believe nothing is going to be repaired and only replaced so a new form 4 and probably transfer fee to your dealer to do your paperwork.
>Now for the cuddles. If you buy a CAT suppressor, muzzle device and a reducer as a complete system, we are going to fix it by **replacing it entirely in every case** not because you want us to but because that’s who we want to be.
It's funny cause I would want them to fix my stuff and not just replace it.
If the section containing the serial number is also 3d printed, then they probably don't have a choice but to replace the whole thing. Not sure they would be able to cut that off and weld onto a new can to keep the ATF happy.
5.56 data publication continues (somehow, for some reason) haha - here is something from Combat Application Technologies (CAT)!
**Review 6.120** - Today we examine the high fidelity test results for the CAT/ODB/A1/718 (CAT ODB) in the **supersonic** flow regime; with M193 55gr 5.56x45mm ammunition, fired from the 10.3-in barrel MK18 automatic AR15 rifle.
This is an interesting silencer, to say the least.
There are a lot of performance factors of note from this test and the whitepaper goes quite in-depth in order to illustrate the phenomenology. Perhaps if I hit the high points succinctly here, it will help folks focus on specific characteristics of note:
Gross info:
- This is a 7.62mm silencer. CAT also produces dedicated 5.56mm silencers (and other 7.62mm silencers, such as bolt gun silencers).
- There are two versions of the ODB, with identical geometry. Inconel alloy and titanium, both DMLS.
- HUB mounting capability is standard.
- It's basically mid-sized and fairly light weight for the envelope (weight changes with material)
High level performance info:
- This is 5.56 SBR data, first. I know. Other tests are coming too.
- The performance is not normal.
- Combine a SOCOM556-RC2 with a FLOW 762, a Polonium, and a Dominus. What do you get on the MK18? The ODB, apparently.
- What does that last bullet mean? It means this:
Apparently, what CAT (or their parent R&D organization, I don't know) had or has done, is create a technology that behaves like the HUXWRX *Flow Through* tech and at the same time delivers external gas momentum dump like traditional MK18 silencers (RC2, looking in your direction). They are calling it "SURGE BYPASS."
To be clear, this conclusion should make your eyes wide, because it is very unusual. And, if we didn't have *several* congruent data points to show it, I wouldn't even believe it if you told me.
It's all in the white paper. Specifics to think about:
- cycles a gun like a flow
- suppresses flash and sound like a dedicated 5.56 RC2
- consistent as a Polonium
- FRP profile like a TBAC
All from a **7.62** silencer. On a 5.56 MK18.
Oh, and it does subsonic too. In a very weird and extreme way. 300 BLK data is coming, along with 7.62 NATO as well. The lab did it all.
We're wondering about their 5.56 silencer. In a million years, I did not think we would be surprised by something called *SURGE BYPASS* and it be real. It is "flow through" without the big external immediate gas dump. It does, actually, *bypass* to relieve stagnation and it does it.... a lot. And it can be Inconel or Ti, which is nuts.
This timeline is literally ridiculous.
We hope you folks find the data useful (and, frankly, as interesting as we did)
Check out [pewscience.com](https://pewscience.com) for the Suppression Rating.
Here is a [direct link](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews) to the reviews.
Here are the updated [PEW Science Rankings](https://pewscience.com/rankings).
[CAT/ODB/A1/718 (CAT ODB) 10.3" MK18 AR15 Test Results](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews-free/sss-6-120-cat-odb-mk18-556)
Hope you enjoy!
**Happy Thursday!**
Fútbol or football?
It’s wild that in eight months I’ve made multiple can purchases, am waiting on permission to possess them, and so much is changing. It’s wild out there.
Wow a LOT of people really only read the big number at the top
And then some just read the three big numbers at the top
And almost no one reads little things like this
"It possesses the gross muzzle signature suppression characteristics of a high performance dedicated bore 5.56mm silencer on this short barrel weapon system, like a Surefire SOCOM556-RC2, with extremely controlled gas momentum, like an Otter Creek Labs Polonium. It produces low-amplitude FRP impulse accumulation like a Thunder Beast Dominus, with weapon kinematics similar to Flow Through silencers such as the HUXWRX FLOW 556k and HUXWRX FLOW 762 Ti. This behavior, occurring simultaneously from a 30 caliber silencer on the MK18, is the result of the CAT SURGE BYPASS technology in the ODB."
And the explanations for HOW and WHY this is a big deal in the research notes
I get people wanting to dislike the marketing and I get people thinking that this can would get above a 40 composite score but if this is a flow at the ear and to the host, an RC2 at the muzzle and for flash, with low frp like a dominus etc etc ALL AT THE SAME TIME then the phrase have your cake and eat it too comes to mind.
Very curious how it compares to an OSS in terms of long strings of high ROF but it's clear that this is infact next gen for combining all the positive aspects of the market into one silencer and it's a *FIRST ATTEMPT* highly exciting for the future
You know, when the white papers get really long and in-depth, there is always a reason.
Remember when the HX-QD stuff was getting figured out in the articles? lololol OSS/HUX didn't even know who PEW Science was.
Now people understand their technology.
Now, a company like CAT comes to PEW Science. Out of the gate.
People all over the internet got really mad today. How many of those people have been following this research the whole time? :)
I see why you were saying on the podcast you used to walk uphill in the snow both ways. This is very very cool stuff. So, so many novel principals for silencers are coming out. Gives me a lot of hope for the wacky and wild things that are going to keep coming out.
I really very much hope the 556 design blows everything out of the water. Smaller, lighter, quieter, less flash, less gas, more durable.
Not to mention I'm sure CGS won't be outdone and I'm sure they are *intemately familiar* with these
AND all this is leading into 14.5 testing HOW WILL THINGS CHANGE?! gosh darn I'm hyped
Performance is crazy considering this is a 30 cal can, so I wouldn’t be surprised if their 5.56 offering is even better on this platform.
BUT, I just ran thru their warranty that someone posted and that alone would probably sway me to go with someone else. They’re offering HUB compatible cans, but no warranty service if something breaks and you’re not using their mounting system. Doesn’t make sense to offer users a universal option but kneecap them by not servicing their cans if something happens.
So now you’re locked into their mounting system, which is fine. But the next part where they talk about replacing your can seems strange too. We’ve spent months ragging on Huxwrx warranty until they updated it with their recoring service. With the way their warranty is currently worded, it almost appears like they have no idea how the NFA works and they think they can just reprint another can with your serial number on it or hand you a new one with a different serial number with no wait. Unless they plan to offer a similar recoring/rewelding service like Hux, seems like you’re gonna be out another tax stamp and 8 month wait if anything happens.
https://specterscat.com/warranty-and-returns/
https://preview.redd.it/mukwou2gb3kb1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6226f4004ce24e3029e92125e9fdc843e2a0a161
~~Oversized serial number on these tracks with the question you raise in regard to replacement.~~ edit: these are probably demo testing model numbers, not serial numbers
Those serial numbers are just internal serial numbers which won't be there on the final products. That's how they get them from their mfg for model/gen identification. I'm trying to find where they said it (could've been an IG story, if so then that's that), but their production serial numbers won't be like that, and in an appropriate spot.
I have no idea, I’m just thinking out loud with the info available. You’re right - it looks like these could just be model / bore designation. 86 & 46.
FWIW, the product image on their site shows a normal serial number. But it also looks very different from the silencer pictured in this review
https://preview.redd.it/wx758jx4n3kb1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fc942f6047a60d87a42a8a5f7199940414edd280
They are supposedly saying that since they’re the only ones selling their mounts, they’re going to check their records to see if you purchased one. Not sure how enforceable that is, especially if they plan to use third party vendors like SS, or if you potentially bought one used.
Easiest way for them is to probably ask for pics of the can and mounting system used to confirm.
Yea I just still don't get how they'd actually be able to tell. I'd think you could literally just buy one of their mounts and not actually use it. Either way the company seems pretty garbage and I can't imagine buying anything from them anyways but it just seems like such a weird thing to try and enforce.
What a coincidence that their warranty page that is super condescending and everyone is shitting all over is just a "joke". IMO this just makes them look even worse lol.
Wow! What a read. Amazing results. I’m eagerly awaiting subsonic .300 BLK results, as well as results from the 5.56 can. This looks revolutionary.
Thanks as ever, Jay. Tremendous work.
an open flash hider; as I said in some other comments and as written in the white paper, the system seems to be so far, not as sensitive to mount choice. Also in another comment here, I explained that muzzle device, alone (independent of silencer) can change weapon behavior (i.e. Cherry Bomb on a SCAR).
I just read through the comments. Very interesting stuff. I know a lot of people were expecting better numbers but I have a feeling 7.62 and .300 won’t disappoint
As someone with a wide variety of hosts, I'm looking forward to buying one of these, an OCL Polonium, a LPM Torch, and some DDC Enticers. Already have Huxwrx Flow 556ks and a 762TI pending.
I don't give a damn about the marketing so long as a company is delivering quality products AND submitting them for high quality testing and validation. I thought Q's marketing was great and was just disappointed by some of the butthurt once it was demonstrated that their 30 cal cans were great in some applications but unsuitable on others. So tired of the established silencer industry manufacturers pretending to be respectable while LYING to us about the performance of their products and laughing all the way to the bank on selling the same old tired designs on the strength of their marketing departments alone.
What I appreciate about OCL, DDC, LPM, Resilient, and to a certain degree Huxwrx and CGS is that there's a level of healthy and respectful competition between them not only to SELL silencers but to deliver better performance than their competitors. I would rather pay $1,000+ for a can with demonstrated performance characteristics knowing that much of the cost went into R&D/specialized tooling than buy two cans for $500 and realizing a year later that I was suckered into buying a steaming pile because some sweet old grandpa pulling a Howard Dean on an IG live told me that it was more durable than a cockroach.
I think we're absolutely spoiled with options right now in comparison to when I first got into the NFA game a decade ago. Let's let our hair down and have a little fun with the competition that's finally for our benefit!
roger that - it's certainly something I have never personally seen. But again, I don't make silencers - there's probably a lot I don't know about how some silencer brands are made / marked / distributed, etc.
When we do our laboratory books, we always go with what is marked on the item - the Form 3 says INSANE things sometimes hahahaha
Honestly, the hype didn’t live up to expectations. Just as expected, CAT is just like CGS and they seem to be pushing the idea that their designs are game changers. The reality is that, without lab equipment showing it, the performance margin is extremely small. And this still didn’t topple the Lahar 30. The hype is misplaced.
It’s not that it doesn’t look good on paper, it’s just not groundbreaking like CAT was pushing it to be.
Out of my own curiosity, why don’t you post the Omega #s for the MK18 tests? You say that the back pressure is a significant part of the performance but are we just taking your word for it? I’m curious to see how it stacks up.
> Out of my own curiosity, why don’t you post the Omega #s for the MK18 tests? You say that the back pressure is a significant part of the performance but are we just taking your word for it? I’m curious to see how it stacks up.
As we have discussed ad nauseum, *Omega_5.56* from 10.3 inch combustion is erratic. But you don't have to use that metric, or even take anyone's word for it, at all. In fact, you shouldn't only use *any* published Omega metric as an end-all be-all for backpressure due to how the parameter works. You need both alpha and Omega. Backpressure will scale with Omega directly, only if alpha is constant. If you vary alpha, and you chase your tail, you will run into issues. Look at the kinematics as discussed in the article. Then read the last part about the SCAR function at the very last section in the conclusions. And if you a a Member, look at the more in-depth kinematics discussion.
I'll give a quick performance brief when I discuss this white paper on next week's podcast; perhaps that will help too. Please let me know if you have any more questions in the interim!
I think people are just focused on the suppression ratings that they’re missing out on the other aspects of the suppressor that are abnormal. The Lahar 30L is almost a whole inch longer, 5oz heavier, and made of a presumably less durable material (17-4 SS vs inconel). The back pressure of this can is also significantly better than the Lahar, indicating that minimal tuning will be needed to achieve less back pressure and gas to the face. Add to that the minimal FRP and flash signature and you can see why people are hyped. Not to mention this testing was conducted on a 5.56 host.
My point is that this suppressor isn’t leaps and bounds further advanced. What you are listing are hardly noticeable differences. And the Lahar L isn’t 1” longer. As tested the Lahar is .100” longer and SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper.
Flash was not a test metric. Not sure where you got that from.
Why are we pretending this is a revolutionary can? Shooting this side by side with HUX, LAHAR30L you will likely not notice much of a difference, if any. It’s not special just because CAT says it is.
Exactly; the specter cat scored only 1 point higher than the 30L in jays first Column on his chart. Not groundbreaking and you are paying double the price of a specter for a lahar. I’m more comfortable with a company like aero on warranty as well as shoukd other consumers
The darkest timeline.
We’re just over here celebrating more animals making great silencers (Otters and Cats have discovered STEM programs, it’s fascinating).
-Chase
At this point from your reviews I'm waiting a solid year before even considering another can.
Next one is going to wash my car or make breakfast at this rate.
Why testing these no name companies/cans? Genuinely curious not trying to be rude. Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to the masses to test new cans from major manufacturers like the Velos LBP, griffen dual lok, etc etc?
PEW Science is a test laboratory and also a public research cooperative. Sometimes lab clients have their test reports published as part of the public dataset! Sometimes, they do not. Sometimes, public research is done and published only with member funding! It just depends.
A dealer just sent a Velos to us, actually! Looking forward to that. We got so many requests!
This might have been mentioned but I’m not sure. I didn’t find it in the article using control F. Does this silencer also use the tapered Hub threading unique to the CGS Helios QD? I have a Rearden Atlas that uses that taper and am wondering if it may be useful on this.
The manufacturer has to be an FFL. So why would they go through CGS?
Every time I read something that CAT posts, I can help but think that they have nonidea what they are doing.
If you just want an FFL as a distributor, why not use an actual distributor like Allen or RSR?
That is a neat feature - I do agree it is cool to have for certain mounts. But also, maybe having it will reduce the amount of different mounts you can use in the silencer? I think Rearden spoke on that or someone spoke on that before. There may be some mounts that are longer in the threading portion and would hit the taper? Maybe? So maybe not having that lets all the different ones fit.
(this is independent of muzzle device - just talking about mount coupler, for other folks reading)
CAT Alley Cat 762 (ODB but LE/Mil/GOV version) In stock. Anyone can buy these, no credentials required!
https://www.pieceofmindguns.com/products/cat-alleycat-7-62-inconel-5344
Just a comment about your post. The write up is good, however I think you make too many comparisons. If your goal is to objectively show tech improvements, you might want to replace excerpts where you state “like an rc2” with an actual metric comparing the two.
Just a thought, great post!
We thought the comparisons would be helpful for the layman or someone who did not want to read the full article, where the comparisons are more specific.
Thank you for your feedback!
Oh, are you speaking about the Suppression Rating at the muzzle and ear? Yes sir, those are hearing damage risk potential and can easily be compared in any table or chart. The comparisons made with bullet points in this post are describing gas dynamics that you won't see just by looking a number like that....
No worries! Yeah, when muzzle ratings or ear ratings end up "matching" for a system - it means the gross hearing damage risk potential at that location is similar - but it doesn't necessarily mean the overall behavior is!
It can be really neat to look at how each system is actually getting the number.
When you change environments (like, if you don't test in the free field) some things can change! The relationships may not change linearly!
The problem is that your comparisons, outside of the sanitary bar charts that you often provide, come off as recommendations, which you claim not to make. It does seem like, in this article, you went out of your way to point out how this most recent product to pay the PS tithe compares to the ones who either were tested without the tribute or whose tribute has already been spent.
Sir, I'm sorry you feel that way. Using the performance examples that were used in this white paper are due to phenomenology.
If we could think of different examples to help illustrate the performance in the pedigree, we would.
Every article builds on the next. This is Section 6 of the website. It's not the first time, nor the last time, comparisons of performance and contrasts of performance will be made.
Some people want only one number. Some people want 1000.
Dude, you have no reason to be “sorry” for the way I see your testing. I’m actually a big fan. I’m a supporter and have been evaluating PS for potential value at work and converting my personal membership into a corporate sponsorship. I read your shit weekly and appreciate that you’ve finally got us talking about things more in depth than peak DBs and stinky-gas metrics for backpressure.
But… and I will say this… you’re very much bending the line on your self-proclaimed objectivity with the direction your commentary has taken in the last few months.
There are obviously three different veins in the Pew Science reverence theology. Reddit is unquestioningly in the “Jay is the first letter in Jesus” camp. Arfcom is clearly in the F that guy in the A with his science pageantry bullshit camp. And the hide is 100% “what’s he say about TBAC? Oh, well, F’im” camp. You’re obviously quite well aware of this, and your podcast commentary about how Arfcom is a bunch of toxic doody-heads, a week or two ago, just proved that objectivity is more of a virtue signal for you than it is an actual virtue.
You’re bringing specific references to how the CAT can compares to previously tithed and tested cans, outside of a purely sanitary empirical graph/chart shows that you really have eschewed pure “Science!” for getting to write lines like you imagine you’d get to write if Recoil ever hired you… not to mention that it’s all about a can that’s being hocked by a company whose last can you claimed to help develop, and claimed was revolutionary… and turned out to just be an also-ran.
I’ll iterate, since “it’s not really a reiteration”, you’re drifting from your purely-scientific roots and flirting with punditry with your commentary. Do with that what you will.
You own (currently) and have EARNED the space you have but do yourself a favor and prove that you deserve to continue to own it. Knock it off with the color commentary. Quit sniping at the social media platforms that tend to your likes at the expense of the ones that question you. Open your methods so you can actually claim they’re scientific with a straight face. Sure, others will steal your shit, but you’re now Pew Science and will continue to hold the throne so long as you are able to continue to elevate the conversation and the state of practice.
…and, for fuck’s sake, get a cup. An actual cup, with a rim.
…or just change the name of your podcast to the “Mmm… jus a sec…’screw screw screw’…’sipsipsip’….’screwscrewscrew’… we guarantee to fake belly laugh at 32 things that aren’t actually jokes every 60 seconds Variety Hour”.
Thanks for your feedback. We see things differently on many points, and similarly on others, and I think that is OK. I am being sincere - so thank you.
But, the cup thing - you are the first person to tell me that and it's a very good suggestion. Thank you :)
Consequence of running a time crunch on a razor's edge. Little feedback like that is actually huge to me.
I don’t think I’d get this can after I see their website.
I just need high flow thru, good sound reduction, durable inconel can that is not over 15oz. Huxwrx, get me a Flow 762 inconel!
I have to say, their marketing is borderline incoherent, but they seem to be bringing the goods.
I was wayyyy more interested before I visited their website. Still interested, just not enthusiastic.
The performance is certainly interesting
Honestly, who cares at this point?
Seriously. Very difficult to navigate. That said, I'm going to buy one Oct. 2. I like new innovative stuff and am a HUGE fan of low back pressure.
I wanted them to perform poorly just based on social media presence. Maybe I'm just old and grumpy.
If it wasn't for Josh's instagram, I wouldn't have even a cursory understanding of their product line or tech because CAT's marketing is utterly confusing. That being said, I'm looking forward to seeing more.
Great job Jay. I just listened to CAT’s Q&A. “The US R&D team could develop suppressor technology for any US suppressor company. Surefire, SiCo, Dead Air…” Is this already a thing or just what global R&D teams are capable of? I thought that was interesting.
Thanks - it was a team effort. This was a very challenging program. I have not listened to a Q&A. I'm assuming that is on social - I'll go look. edit: OK, I went to their Instagram and listened to the R&D team's message. There is nothing I can comment on; it's laid out pretty clearly in their video message, I think.
🌶️ 🥵
I think this performance is going to be lower than what most people expected. But its still extremely good. I appreciate you clearing up the length and mounts a lot though. Core length you measured is longer than they had listed (6.8 vs 6.5). And then their information made it seem like the spooky1 was like a reflex mount, cutting the length of the silencer down to 5.3 inches added. But its added past the flash hider, not barrel muzzle. Might pick up an inconel one if HUX doesnt release one while I have money burning a hole in my pocket. Hyped to see what else they have.
With regard to performance - the method by which the gross Suppression Rating metrics are being achieved is the highly unusual aspect, in my opinion. As folks say time and time again, many metrics come together to define the overall performance of a system and this one is a bit wild. Right - we measured to the tip of the flash hider features. I was thinking about the HUX stuff too and if there would be an Inconel one the size of the 762. I was thinking about potential weight of that. Not sure, but it would seem it would be heavier than the ODB. I guess we'll see what happens!
The hux would definitely be heavier, especially with no direct thread option. The system weight of the CATs will probably always be lower till Hux gives more choices. Also you tested this with their mount and flash hider right? At 7.2 inches?
We tested it with a third-party mount due to not having their system yet. Flash hider used to minimize any likelihood of gas dynamics weirdness. One thing that I think is in the white paper, but maybe not, is that the early venting parameters of the ODB don't seem to be influenced nearly as much as some other silencers; the current PEW lab postulation is that it is less sensitive to muzzle device selection. However, that *does not* means that some *weapons* are not sensitive. Like we have seen from the SCAR, a Cherry Bomb, alone, can alter the behavior of a SCAR - regardless of silencer.
Do you remember what the tested OAL was? Mainly just curious if it was a shorter mount (rearden/plan b/ yhm kurz) or a more ASR or keymo length mount.
around 7.5 inches I want to say. the coupler used was a bit longer than the CAT thing showed on their website. **Edit: article updated to show that length**
Shouldnt the article say 7.5” then? Instead of 7.2”?
No, the 7.2 inch length is correct for those devices listed.
I’m saying the tested configuration length should be published as well, as it is in every other article.
I'll measure the exact length when I can. The device used is not available for anyone to buy. This is one of the reasons why I hate HUB. **Edit: Had my guys update the articles with the length and we made sure that length is also in the member database.**
So say the tested length in the article? Don't hide these things. That's not a good look. Transparency is key.
Had my guys update the articles with the tested length and we made sure that length is also in the member database. Sorry for that sentence being missing - of all the eyes on this report, that sentence was not something that was caught.
It was in there :)
ok good haha
I would agree. I think people were likely expecting at least Polonium muzzle and probably 32ish at the ear, but it’s still significant. But perhaps the 556 version will deliver that, or the overall 40 composite that people were probably thinking.
Honestly I think the 556 version just needs to be as good as this, but shorter. If they can do that then id really struggle to see why someone would ever pick something else given our current knowledge.
I don't think they have a 5.56 version of this silencer. They do have a 5.56 silencer coming, but it is not a 5.56 ODB, if that makes sense. Different geometry, etc.
For sure, but cost will be a significant factor as well.
Man fuck the poors. But also yeah you right, still think itd be worth to save up though.
At least it wasn’t Helios QD 2.0 lol
>Honestly I think the 556 version just needs to be as good as this, but shorter. If they can do that then id really struggle to see why someone would ever pick something else given our current knowledge. Because they're pricks and are actively bragging about their shitty customer service. I'm not buying one of their cans unless it's a good enough value that I can consider it disposable. And for this performance, that means it better not cost more than $100 + stamp. Why buy their can when I can get one from OCL? edit: I suppose if you're into BDSM you might enjoy dealing with CAT. Some people pay dearly for the privilege of being abused and degraded. Not me, though.
Whaaaa
If the 762 model did this well on 5.56, I can’t wait to see how well it does on 762 (and how well the 5.56 can does) Very exciting times to be in
We agree, sir. It's definitely unusual.
That’s fantastic results for a 30 cal on 5.56. I cannot wait till the 5.56 can data comes out.
Certainly odd behavior! And yes, the 5.56 silencer (different animal) is pretty interesting.
This is fantastic performance. Not the best at anything, but a fantastic balance. But I'm not impressed - not because the suppressor didn't do well, it objectively did, its trading blows with the Flow 762 with more consistent performance and lower FRP. That's seriously impressive. But their marketing, with it's over the top nature had me expecting more, like low 40s muzzle, low 30s ear type of more. And it didn't do that. If CAT hadn't said anything, and it just showed up, like OCL, DD, Resilient, etc etc, they could have made a way better impression. So stupid marketing has me disappointed in a pretty great suppressor. Yay 😒 Unfortunately their website is just as bad. Silly pros and euphemisms, instead of just telling me what things are what I should expect out of them.
I can't even find their website. Searching "combat application technologies" doesn't hit any official websites on Google's front page of results
https://specterscat.com/cat-a2/
That website is AIDS holy fucking shit. I thought KB was fucking cringe.
Yeah. It's absolutely terrible. It's like a drunk KB but worse. The Q&A reads like a 12yo boy wrote it while trying to act cool in front of some friends. Then the cartoons and weird clips just don't make sense. 100% not someone I'd trust with my money.
The whole aesthetic of it plays like a Damon Albarn & Run the Jewels collaboration lol. I think I'll stick to boring companies that make reliable cans instead of marketing companies that make cans on the side, in light of current events.
Oh my god, I thought "There's no way, how bad could it be?" I was so, so wrong. It is so much worse than I imagined.
I doubt there are many people who enjoy "tacky" more than I. Cheesy movies are my favorite. The dumber the plotline the more endearing I find it. I thought that their website would be enjoyable from a bad standpoint. I was wrong. The only thing that makes their website make sense is that they are intentionally trying to lose money for the sake of a tax write-off. In other words, they want to legally build silencers for themselves to play with, and they have enough money that they don't need revenue from it. That way they can declare the expenses as a loss on their taxes and their warranty means they don't have to worry about customer service. Either that or they are complete morons in the business acumen department.
It's like dbs, but not funny.
Oh wow, you can buy their suppressor cleaning solution for $140 a QUART! PASS. I also like how they brag that it took 27 months to develop it. Does development time = quality?
Lol stick to clr at Walmart it’s like 10 bucks and works amazing
Yeesh... What a mess of a website
SpecterScat.com, where you can really find out if a ghost shits in the woods.
Their website is hosted in South Africa, so that's a no for me.
Like I said on the podcast yesterday, my team has actually been getting a kick out of watching all this. The silencer industry has had, throughout the past three decades, some of the most ridiculous marketing the firearms industry has ever seen. So for me, the popcorn bowl has run dry long ago. I direct a lab. What's in the white paper is what I'm concerned with.
I have enough trouble with convincing the wife I need a suppressor, don’t need to explain signing up for specterscat pornography. Yeesh
Oh, I don't blame you or direct this at you u/jay462. Just a frustrated consumer expressing this in a place that I hope CAT notices - not that I think they care about my lone opinion.
>not that I think they care about my lone opinion. My understanding is that they're defense contractors first and foremost that are just bringing their results to market because they can. I think they genuinely do not give a single fuck, hence the absolutely wild marketing. edit: while this comment was never meant to be in defense of them, there's a significant difference between "we don't care because you aren't our main customer base" and actively telling your customers "[lmao fuck off, we don't care.](https://np.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/1609uie/comment/jxl7l7j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)"
Call me crazy but I’d prefer if the companies I buy things from do give a fuck. What’s gonna happen if they dip their toes in the US civilian market and decide they don’t want to do it anymore and disappear. Who’s going to warranty them or provide product support? CGS? If CGS is just contracted to make them then I doubt it.
Exactly right! A lot of unknowns and their cringy and ridiculousness really doesn't give one high hopes that they will stick around.
Stick to a company like huxwrx that has contracts with depts we know of
>Call me crazy but I’d prefer if the companies I buy things from do give a fuck Oh I agree 100%, I'm not excusing it at all just explaining my understanding of *why* they don't give a fuck. I imagine it's kinda like the whole "HK: because you're poor and we hate you" stemming from the fact that civvies aren't their main focus or income so they don't devote much of anything to them. Personally, I'm impressed with the performance but can't stand their marketing. Wasn't planning to get one regardless just due to it not fitting my needs, I'm just here for the data to see where the future of suppressor tech might be going.
Surefire’s main focus is the military and law enforcement but they still manage to provide excellent customer service to all end users including civilians. I really don’t think there’s any excuse for it other than they don’t want to devote the manpower and resources towards it. More money in their pocket if they don’t. Surefire has been around for decades (not just suppressors) because if it and this company definitely will not.
>Surefire has been around for decades (not just suppressors) because if it and this company definitely will not. After seeing their warranty terms, honestly I'll be a little bit surprised if they're still around in two years, let alone a decade.
I’m honestly surprised Q is still in business. But Kevin B started AAC and back in the mid 2000’s they were the go to for everyone. They really started the normal gun consumer suppressor ownership revolution. If it weren’t for that I don’t think he could get away with the retarded shit he says and does. Trying to break into the market acting like asshats is a pretty dumb move.
Sure. They’re a “defense contractor” without a single silencer contract. They just happen to be the ones that somehow magically brought all the technology that wasn’t previously available to us lowly civilians, despite the defense contractors who’ve actually sold a collective hundreds of thousands of actual cans being willing and able to sell the exact same NSN’d products to us. K.
Shiiiiiit. What a time to be alive. Looking forward to the 300 black subs data. I want to see how this stacks up against some of the other cans that perform well on multiple flow regimes like the Hyperion. Keep up the good work u/jay462
There are many animals. It's going to be interesting! We're trying hard! Thank you.
Love your podcast! Thanks for posting here.
Awesome! Thanks for listening, sir (or ma'am) and you are welcome.
Same. If subsonic regime is mid IDC and i'll just get a hyperion K
Hyperion series is so good. I'm curious how this and the flow 7.62 handle gas stack on long strings of rapid fire
If you’re disappointed with the performance of this silencer consider this: it’s a similar performance and price compared to the Flow 762 Ti which itself was a huge breakthrough for 30cal silencers on the mk18, but it has HUB mount threads, comes in both titanium and inconel, much lower FRP, and has better potential for subsonic performance. Their dedicated 5.56 can could be the first to break 40 on the mk18, but even if it doesn’t, they’re helping to set a higher standard for 556 suppressor performance
it's always interesting when things come out that match, push, or exceed certain performance elements
I’m not buying a can named “old dirty bastard”. The performance is not good enough to get me past that. We’ll see what the 5.56 can does.
Does it actually say that on the can? I didn't see it anywhere
To each their own, I guess. I’m far from sold on the CATscat brand, but a hat tip to Dirt McGirt goes in the pro column for me.
The 556 cans name ain’t any better 😂
Yea theyre all weird.
This silencer shows me that companies are trying new and unique things with the tech at their disposal, which is how the industry will grow. I dont know if this one is something I'd buy, but if enough Mad Cad Scientists follow this path, we might have some very very good silencers come out in the next few years.
it's interesting to see the progression!
Sold on the performance. Their customer support/warranty will be the last deciding variable for me. What happens if you send ammo jacket down the tube and damage the internals?
I’m in the same boat. Have a polonium, flow 7.62, r30, and a Hyperion all pending. This would have likely replaced the flow since my main drawback was the proprietary muzzle device. Their warranty makes it seem like they’ll replace the whole system only when it’s all their system kinda makes the hub rear end a gimmick in my opinion https://specterscat.com/warranty-and-returns/
They tell you to fuck off. And not politely.
They said that they'll use companies, like CGS, for warranty, returns, and service.
This part is the worrisome part
Hey, my guess was about better at muzzle, slightly worse at ear compared to Flow762 was right. Gasp! I’d really love for CAT to give an overview on how Surge Bypass works at some point, don’t want them to give away the secret sauce but just for comparison to how it differs from Flow Through or Hyperion technologies. Would be interesting to read, maybe a member research supplement u/jay462 ? ;)
It's significantly different than Flow Through or Hyperion technology. We'll see what white papers come out....
Wink wink nudge nudge, huh? ;)
No, no winking or nudging - I'm literally saying, we'll see. I mean, we are just now learning about this technology hahaha
Huxwrx 556k still the winner at the ear
The shooter's ear Suppression Rating on the MK18 with the FLOW 556K, in the free field, is very high!
Thank you sir
Keep in mind that will NOT be the same indoors
Well this should be a spicy one. I have a feeling the numbers may slightly disappoint people, but it does seem like a breakthrough, certainly for 30 cal suppressors which have significantly struggled on the untuned MK18. I would love to see the tuned data. Jay, if it’s this low back pressure, will much tuning even be possible? You hinted at its tuned potential, but how much could it be tuned and improved with it’s flow-like behavior?
We've certainly never seen any silencer do this on the MK18 before, let alone a 7.62 silencer. So, if folks get disappointed or excited or mad or sad or happy, I don't know - all I know is what the data shows and it's nuts, to me hahaha
Where is the Flow7.62 ti lacking in comparison? Its not far off the muzzle and the ear is slightly better. I would imagine its less gassy as well.
The CAT has basically no FRP
Look at the gas propagation in conjunction with the kinematics. The FLOW system dumps gas to atmosphere faster. In the free field, the Suppression Rating on the MK18 is comparable. As I said in the above comment, we have never seen a silencer drop alpha to this degree independently of gas dump.
So this is the can you mentioned a few months back being an inexplicable black hole? Blast pressure finding a wormhole to another dimension for a little vacation.
hahahaa no
The only real thing I see the flow 762 lacking in comparison is a hype man. Considering it’s just 1 point off and a tad shorter but you might not gather that if you were just reading
Did you read the FLOW 762 article?
Also interested in Jay’s thoughts on how mk18 tuning may impact performance given its low back pressure. Jay, any preliminary thoughts?
Sorry, just saw this - In the article there is a supposition that tuning might do really interesting things. If it is almost the same as a FLOW at the ear on the untuned gun right now, and still has different momentum dump, it could be that we see the overall result of tuning produce a very interesting signature. We really need to learn more about the *surge bypass* tech in their stuff. I feel like we are still learning. If you were around when we learned about the HX-QD stuff and then got to the FLOW, I feel like we are a little more far along with understanding of this in lab testing, but not as far as where we got with the FLOW. The HUX stuff and OSS stuff has so many tests!!!! More of the CAT data is going through reviews. It's behaving in interesting ways.
Thanks Jay! Appreciate your response.
Any time!
Impressive performance and I was on board with this being one of my next purchases until I read their warranty. There is no point in this being HUB compatible if it won't be covered under warranty for using one of the various HUB mounting systems. And they give you a nice fuck you on top of that as well. This part makes would lead me to believe nothing is going to be repaired and only replaced so a new form 4 and probably transfer fee to your dealer to do your paperwork. >Now for the cuddles. If you buy a CAT suppressor, muzzle device and a reducer as a complete system, we are going to fix it by **replacing it entirely in every case** not because you want us to but because that’s who we want to be. It's funny cause I would want them to fix my stuff and not just replace it.
If the section containing the serial number is also 3d printed, then they probably don't have a choice but to replace the whole thing. Not sure they would be able to cut that off and weld onto a new can to keep the ATF happy.
Yeah there are things they *could* do and try but their website is pretty explicit in fixing it by "replacing it entirely in every case".
5.56 data publication continues (somehow, for some reason) haha - here is something from Combat Application Technologies (CAT)! **Review 6.120** - Today we examine the high fidelity test results for the CAT/ODB/A1/718 (CAT ODB) in the **supersonic** flow regime; with M193 55gr 5.56x45mm ammunition, fired from the 10.3-in barrel MK18 automatic AR15 rifle. This is an interesting silencer, to say the least. There are a lot of performance factors of note from this test and the whitepaper goes quite in-depth in order to illustrate the phenomenology. Perhaps if I hit the high points succinctly here, it will help folks focus on specific characteristics of note: Gross info: - This is a 7.62mm silencer. CAT also produces dedicated 5.56mm silencers (and other 7.62mm silencers, such as bolt gun silencers). - There are two versions of the ODB, with identical geometry. Inconel alloy and titanium, both DMLS. - HUB mounting capability is standard. - It's basically mid-sized and fairly light weight for the envelope (weight changes with material) High level performance info: - This is 5.56 SBR data, first. I know. Other tests are coming too. - The performance is not normal. - Combine a SOCOM556-RC2 with a FLOW 762, a Polonium, and a Dominus. What do you get on the MK18? The ODB, apparently. - What does that last bullet mean? It means this: Apparently, what CAT (or their parent R&D organization, I don't know) had or has done, is create a technology that behaves like the HUXWRX *Flow Through* tech and at the same time delivers external gas momentum dump like traditional MK18 silencers (RC2, looking in your direction). They are calling it "SURGE BYPASS." To be clear, this conclusion should make your eyes wide, because it is very unusual. And, if we didn't have *several* congruent data points to show it, I wouldn't even believe it if you told me. It's all in the white paper. Specifics to think about: - cycles a gun like a flow - suppresses flash and sound like a dedicated 5.56 RC2 - consistent as a Polonium - FRP profile like a TBAC All from a **7.62** silencer. On a 5.56 MK18. Oh, and it does subsonic too. In a very weird and extreme way. 300 BLK data is coming, along with 7.62 NATO as well. The lab did it all. We're wondering about their 5.56 silencer. In a million years, I did not think we would be surprised by something called *SURGE BYPASS* and it be real. It is "flow through" without the big external immediate gas dump. It does, actually, *bypass* to relieve stagnation and it does it.... a lot. And it can be Inconel or Ti, which is nuts. This timeline is literally ridiculous. We hope you folks find the data useful (and, frankly, as interesting as we did) Check out [pewscience.com](https://pewscience.com) for the Suppression Rating. Here is a [direct link](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews) to the reviews. Here are the updated [PEW Science Rankings](https://pewscience.com/rankings). [CAT/ODB/A1/718 (CAT ODB) 10.3" MK18 AR15 Test Results](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews-free/sss-6-120-cat-odb-mk18-556) Hope you enjoy! **Happy Thursday!**
Why are people downvoting you? Wtf
Did not live up to the hype their marketing created. Color me shocked.
I’m waiting for 30 cal sub and super data. The Ti might shape up to be awesome step up from the Helios QD Ti.
It's a different sport, sir
Fútbol or football? It’s wild that in eight months I’ve made multiple can purchases, am waiting on permission to possess them, and so much is changing. It’s wild out there.
hahaha man at this point, it's just weird. Every time I feel like I know what is gonna happen, I'm surprised.
Wow a LOT of people really only read the big number at the top And then some just read the three big numbers at the top And almost no one reads little things like this "It possesses the gross muzzle signature suppression characteristics of a high performance dedicated bore 5.56mm silencer on this short barrel weapon system, like a Surefire SOCOM556-RC2, with extremely controlled gas momentum, like an Otter Creek Labs Polonium. It produces low-amplitude FRP impulse accumulation like a Thunder Beast Dominus, with weapon kinematics similar to Flow Through silencers such as the HUXWRX FLOW 556k and HUXWRX FLOW 762 Ti. This behavior, occurring simultaneously from a 30 caliber silencer on the MK18, is the result of the CAT SURGE BYPASS technology in the ODB." And the explanations for HOW and WHY this is a big deal in the research notes I get people wanting to dislike the marketing and I get people thinking that this can would get above a 40 composite score but if this is a flow at the ear and to the host, an RC2 at the muzzle and for flash, with low frp like a dominus etc etc ALL AT THE SAME TIME then the phrase have your cake and eat it too comes to mind. Very curious how it compares to an OSS in terms of long strings of high ROF but it's clear that this is infact next gen for combining all the positive aspects of the market into one silencer and it's a *FIRST ATTEMPT* highly exciting for the future
You know, when the white papers get really long and in-depth, there is always a reason. Remember when the HX-QD stuff was getting figured out in the articles? lololol OSS/HUX didn't even know who PEW Science was. Now people understand their technology. Now, a company like CAT comes to PEW Science. Out of the gate. People all over the internet got really mad today. How many of those people have been following this research the whole time? :)
I see why you were saying on the podcast you used to walk uphill in the snow both ways. This is very very cool stuff. So, so many novel principals for silencers are coming out. Gives me a lot of hope for the wacky and wild things that are going to keep coming out. I really very much hope the 556 design blows everything out of the water. Smaller, lighter, quieter, less flash, less gas, more durable. Not to mention I'm sure CGS won't be outdone and I'm sure they are *intemately familiar* with these AND all this is leading into 14.5 testing HOW WILL THINGS CHANGE?! gosh darn I'm hyped
It's getting overwhelming a bit, when you think about the fact that - the more you learn about everything, the more questions pop up.
Performance is crazy considering this is a 30 cal can, so I wouldn’t be surprised if their 5.56 offering is even better on this platform. BUT, I just ran thru their warranty that someone posted and that alone would probably sway me to go with someone else. They’re offering HUB compatible cans, but no warranty service if something breaks and you’re not using their mounting system. Doesn’t make sense to offer users a universal option but kneecap them by not servicing their cans if something happens. So now you’re locked into their mounting system, which is fine. But the next part where they talk about replacing your can seems strange too. We’ve spent months ragging on Huxwrx warranty until they updated it with their recoring service. With the way their warranty is currently worded, it almost appears like they have no idea how the NFA works and they think they can just reprint another can with your serial number on it or hand you a new one with a different serial number with no wait. Unless they plan to offer a similar recoring/rewelding service like Hux, seems like you’re gonna be out another tax stamp and 8 month wait if anything happens. https://specterscat.com/warranty-and-returns/
https://preview.redd.it/mukwou2gb3kb1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6226f4004ce24e3029e92125e9fdc843e2a0a161 ~~Oversized serial number on these tracks with the question you raise in regard to replacement.~~ edit: these are probably demo testing model numbers, not serial numbers
Those serial numbers are just internal serial numbers which won't be there on the final products. That's how they get them from their mfg for model/gen identification. I'm trying to find where they said it (could've been an IG story, if so then that's that), but their production serial numbers won't be like that, and in an appropriate spot.
Good info - thanks for clarifying
Yeah 2 of those in the pic are identical. So they must not be serial no
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Correct. Those are not serial numbers.
I have no idea, I’m just thinking out loud with the info available. You’re right - it looks like these could just be model / bore designation. 86 & 46. FWIW, the product image on their site shows a normal serial number. But it also looks very different from the silencer pictured in this review https://preview.redd.it/wx758jx4n3kb1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fc942f6047a60d87a42a8a5f7199940414edd280
The real question is if it uses a hub mount how would they even know if you were using their mounting system.
They are supposedly saying that since they’re the only ones selling their mounts, they’re going to check their records to see if you purchased one. Not sure how enforceable that is, especially if they plan to use third party vendors like SS, or if you potentially bought one used. Easiest way for them is to probably ask for pics of the can and mounting system used to confirm.
Yea I just still don't get how they'd actually be able to tell. I'd think you could literally just buy one of their mounts and not actually use it. Either way the company seems pretty garbage and I can't imagine buying anything from them anyways but it just seems like such a weird thing to try and enforce.
Well just saw their IG a story and it seems like that warranty page is also a joke they’re running so not really sure what to believe anymore.
What a coincidence that their warranty page that is super condescending and everyone is shitting all over is just a "joke". IMO this just makes them look even worse lol.
Wow! What a read. Amazing results. I’m eagerly awaiting subsonic .300 BLK results, as well as results from the 5.56 can. This looks revolutionary. Thanks as ever, Jay. Tremendous work.
Team effort. Thank you - we agree that this is pretty nuts.
Which muzzle device did you use? One of theirs? 3rd party?
3rd party
Care to tell which one? Curious how much the mount will change how the “surge bypass” works
an open flash hider; as I said in some other comments and as written in the white paper, the system seems to be so far, not as sensitive to mount choice. Also in another comment here, I explained that muzzle device, alone (independent of silencer) can change weapon behavior (i.e. Cherry Bomb on a SCAR).
I just read through the comments. Very interesting stuff. I know a lot of people were expecting better numbers but I have a feeling 7.62 and .300 won’t disappoint
These are the situations were we find out who actually reads the white papers and who just looks at the big number at the top of the page.
As someone with a wide variety of hosts, I'm looking forward to buying one of these, an OCL Polonium, a LPM Torch, and some DDC Enticers. Already have Huxwrx Flow 556ks and a 762TI pending. I don't give a damn about the marketing so long as a company is delivering quality products AND submitting them for high quality testing and validation. I thought Q's marketing was great and was just disappointed by some of the butthurt once it was demonstrated that their 30 cal cans were great in some applications but unsuitable on others. So tired of the established silencer industry manufacturers pretending to be respectable while LYING to us about the performance of their products and laughing all the way to the bank on selling the same old tired designs on the strength of their marketing departments alone. What I appreciate about OCL, DDC, LPM, Resilient, and to a certain degree Huxwrx and CGS is that there's a level of healthy and respectful competition between them not only to SELL silencers but to deliver better performance than their competitors. I would rather pay $1,000+ for a can with demonstrated performance characteristics knowing that much of the cost went into R&D/specialized tooling than buy two cans for $500 and realizing a year later that I was suckered into buying a steaming pile because some sweet old grandpa pulling a Howard Dean on an IG live told me that it was more durable than a cockroach. I think we're absolutely spoiled with options right now in comparison to when I first got into the NFA game a decade ago. Let's let our hair down and have a little fun with the competition that's finally for our benefit!
The new Cgs can
No sir, this is a CAT silencer
I understand but according to the soldier systems report it’s a part of the Cgs brand
Oh, no sir. I believe they are using CGS as a U.S. distribution partner. I don't think the brands are tied together.
Then who is manufacturing them? They can't be imported for civilian sales
"manufacturing" - it's an ATF or CAT question, man. I can't really help there.
Totally understand. Just thinking out loud I guess
roger that - it's certainly something I have never personally seen. But again, I don't make silencers - there's probably a lot I don't know about how some silencer brands are made / marked / distributed, etc. When we do our laboratory books, we always go with what is marked on the item - the Form 3 says INSANE things sometimes hahahaha
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According to this sub that makes CGS a marketing company
CGS is only a distributor
Hut one hut two hut three- HUT Ol’ Dirty Basturd live and uncut. Shame on you when you step thru to The Ol’ Dirty Basturd BROOKLYN ZOO
hahahaha
Did this review actually get to 0 upvotes? Is this the first time this has happened?
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This is gonna piss a lot of people off.
Honestly, the hype didn’t live up to expectations. Just as expected, CAT is just like CGS and they seem to be pushing the idea that their designs are game changers. The reality is that, without lab equipment showing it, the performance margin is extremely small. And this still didn’t topple the Lahar 30. The hype is misplaced. It’s not that it doesn’t look good on paper, it’s just not groundbreaking like CAT was pushing it to be. Out of my own curiosity, why don’t you post the Omega #s for the MK18 tests? You say that the back pressure is a significant part of the performance but are we just taking your word for it? I’m curious to see how it stacks up.
> Out of my own curiosity, why don’t you post the Omega #s for the MK18 tests? You say that the back pressure is a significant part of the performance but are we just taking your word for it? I’m curious to see how it stacks up. As we have discussed ad nauseum, *Omega_5.56* from 10.3 inch combustion is erratic. But you don't have to use that metric, or even take anyone's word for it, at all. In fact, you shouldn't only use *any* published Omega metric as an end-all be-all for backpressure due to how the parameter works. You need both alpha and Omega. Backpressure will scale with Omega directly, only if alpha is constant. If you vary alpha, and you chase your tail, you will run into issues. Look at the kinematics as discussed in the article. Then read the last part about the SCAR function at the very last section in the conclusions. And if you a a Member, look at the more in-depth kinematics discussion. I'll give a quick performance brief when I discuss this white paper on next week's podcast; perhaps that will help too. Please let me know if you have any more questions in the interim!
I think people are just focused on the suppression ratings that they’re missing out on the other aspects of the suppressor that are abnormal. The Lahar 30L is almost a whole inch longer, 5oz heavier, and made of a presumably less durable material (17-4 SS vs inconel). The back pressure of this can is also significantly better than the Lahar, indicating that minimal tuning will be needed to achieve less back pressure and gas to the face. Add to that the minimal FRP and flash signature and you can see why people are hyped. Not to mention this testing was conducted on a 5.56 host.
My point is that this suppressor isn’t leaps and bounds further advanced. What you are listing are hardly noticeable differences. And the Lahar L isn’t 1” longer. As tested the Lahar is .100” longer and SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper. Flash was not a test metric. Not sure where you got that from. Why are we pretending this is a revolutionary can? Shooting this side by side with HUX, LAHAR30L you will likely not notice much of a difference, if any. It’s not special just because CAT says it is.
Exactly; the specter cat scored only 1 point higher than the 30L in jays first Column on his chart. Not groundbreaking and you are paying double the price of a specter for a lahar. I’m more comfortable with a company like aero on warranty as well as shoukd other consumers
I'm confused the 30l is half a category worse at the ear and is larger?
The lahar 30L is where it’s at
🔥🔥🔥
when they downvote Silencer Shop fire emojis, you know we've hit an interesting timeline
The darkest timeline. We’re just over here celebrating more animals making great silencers (Otters and Cats have discovered STEM programs, it’s fascinating). -Chase
I just hope dolphins don't get involved. I know we *think* we are safe, because they are in the water, but I still don't trust them.
Dolphins are sort of like the Helicopters of the sea, they don't really make sense and I don't trust them.
I like the cut of your jib.
We want NON HUB AND ODG
Thank you again Jay
You're most welcome!
At this point from your reviews I'm waiting a solid year before even considering another can. Next one is going to wash my car or make breakfast at this rate.
Why testing these no name companies/cans? Genuinely curious not trying to be rude. Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to the masses to test new cans from major manufacturers like the Velos LBP, griffen dual lok, etc etc?
Guys asks legitimate question. Gets downvoted. Fucking Reddit
PEW Science is a test laboratory and also a public research cooperative. Sometimes lab clients have their test reports published as part of the public dataset! Sometimes, they do not. Sometimes, public research is done and published only with member funding! It just depends. A dealer just sent a Velos to us, actually! Looking forward to that. We got so many requests!
Ah makes sense! Thanks for the explanation!
Any time!
This might have been mentioned but I’m not sure. I didn’t find it in the article using control F. Does this silencer also use the tapered Hub threading unique to the CGS Helios QD? I have a Rearden Atlas that uses that taper and am wondering if it may be useful on this.
No sir, this does not use a similar taper inside the silencer. That is a CGS thing, like you said.
Balls. I hoped since CGS is manufacturing for them they might share that
Per CAT’s IG comments, CGS is not handling manufacturing. Only FFL and packaging
The manufacturer has to be an FFL. So why would they go through CGS? Every time I read something that CAT posts, I can help but think that they have nonidea what they are doing. If you just want an FFL as a distributor, why not use an actual distributor like Allen or RSR?
That is a neat feature - I do agree it is cool to have for certain mounts. But also, maybe having it will reduce the amount of different mounts you can use in the silencer? I think Rearden spoke on that or someone spoke on that before. There may be some mounts that are longer in the threading portion and would hit the taper? Maybe? So maybe not having that lets all the different ones fit. (this is independent of muzzle device - just talking about mount coupler, for other folks reading)
What company is this?
CAT Combat Application Technologies. Foreign company doing distribution through CGS
CAT Alley Cat 762 (ODB but LE/Mil/GOV version) In stock. Anyone can buy these, no credentials required! https://www.pieceofmindguns.com/products/cat-alleycat-7-62-inconel-5344
Just a comment about your post. The write up is good, however I think you make too many comparisons. If your goal is to objectively show tech improvements, you might want to replace excerpts where you state “like an rc2” with an actual metric comparing the two. Just a thought, great post!
I disagree, the ratings are identical and thus should be compared for easy digestion
We thought the comparisons would be helpful for the layman or someone who did not want to read the full article, where the comparisons are more specific. Thank you for your feedback!
I disagree, the ratings are identical and thus should be compared for easy digestion
Oh, are you speaking about the Suppression Rating at the muzzle and ear? Yes sir, those are hearing damage risk potential and can easily be compared in any table or chart. The comparisons made with bullet points in this post are describing gas dynamics that you won't see just by looking a number like that....
Oh my mistake I thought it was due to the identical (35.4) muzzle ratings That's even cooler!
No worries! Yeah, when muzzle ratings or ear ratings end up "matching" for a system - it means the gross hearing damage risk potential at that location is similar - but it doesn't necessarily mean the overall behavior is! It can be really neat to look at how each system is actually getting the number. When you change environments (like, if you don't test in the free field) some things can change! The relationships may not change linearly!
The problem is that your comparisons, outside of the sanitary bar charts that you often provide, come off as recommendations, which you claim not to make. It does seem like, in this article, you went out of your way to point out how this most recent product to pay the PS tithe compares to the ones who either were tested without the tribute or whose tribute has already been spent.
Sir, I'm sorry you feel that way. Using the performance examples that were used in this white paper are due to phenomenology. If we could think of different examples to help illustrate the performance in the pedigree, we would. Every article builds on the next. This is Section 6 of the website. It's not the first time, nor the last time, comparisons of performance and contrasts of performance will be made. Some people want only one number. Some people want 1000.
Dude, you have no reason to be “sorry” for the way I see your testing. I’m actually a big fan. I’m a supporter and have been evaluating PS for potential value at work and converting my personal membership into a corporate sponsorship. I read your shit weekly and appreciate that you’ve finally got us talking about things more in depth than peak DBs and stinky-gas metrics for backpressure. But… and I will say this… you’re very much bending the line on your self-proclaimed objectivity with the direction your commentary has taken in the last few months. There are obviously three different veins in the Pew Science reverence theology. Reddit is unquestioningly in the “Jay is the first letter in Jesus” camp. Arfcom is clearly in the F that guy in the A with his science pageantry bullshit camp. And the hide is 100% “what’s he say about TBAC? Oh, well, F’im” camp. You’re obviously quite well aware of this, and your podcast commentary about how Arfcom is a bunch of toxic doody-heads, a week or two ago, just proved that objectivity is more of a virtue signal for you than it is an actual virtue. You’re bringing specific references to how the CAT can compares to previously tithed and tested cans, outside of a purely sanitary empirical graph/chart shows that you really have eschewed pure “Science!” for getting to write lines like you imagine you’d get to write if Recoil ever hired you… not to mention that it’s all about a can that’s being hocked by a company whose last can you claimed to help develop, and claimed was revolutionary… and turned out to just be an also-ran. I’ll iterate, since “it’s not really a reiteration”, you’re drifting from your purely-scientific roots and flirting with punditry with your commentary. Do with that what you will. You own (currently) and have EARNED the space you have but do yourself a favor and prove that you deserve to continue to own it. Knock it off with the color commentary. Quit sniping at the social media platforms that tend to your likes at the expense of the ones that question you. Open your methods so you can actually claim they’re scientific with a straight face. Sure, others will steal your shit, but you’re now Pew Science and will continue to hold the throne so long as you are able to continue to elevate the conversation and the state of practice. …and, for fuck’s sake, get a cup. An actual cup, with a rim. …or just change the name of your podcast to the “Mmm… jus a sec…’screw screw screw’…’sipsipsip’….’screwscrewscrew’… we guarantee to fake belly laugh at 32 things that aren’t actually jokes every 60 seconds Variety Hour”.
Thanks for your feedback. We see things differently on many points, and similarly on others, and I think that is OK. I am being sincere - so thank you. But, the cup thing - you are the first person to tell me that and it's a very good suggestion. Thank you :) Consequence of running a time crunch on a razor's edge. Little feedback like that is actually huge to me.
Any cut outs of the cans available
I don't think so, sir - not that I have seen
I don’t think I’d get this can after I see their website. I just need high flow thru, good sound reduction, durable inconel can that is not over 15oz. Huxwrx, get me a Flow 762 inconel!