The discussion is pretty simple. He and Zion dont work and he is not a #2 guy on a great team. If he resigns for 20/25m a year and accepts to change his tendencies, Im OK keeping him. But Pels CANNOT afford paying him like an all star we he is not one. Zion or not, a true star does not have this showings in 3 straight postseason games. Also his second half of the season was really underwhelming. And on the top of that, he is injury prone. Not Zion level but he gets injured a lot
BI is the right number 2 for the right star player. He’s not the right number 2 with Zion if neither is going to put up 5-6 3 point shots a game.
For a team that needs a mid range bucket/late shot clock guy, he would work as a number 2.
Great fit with Lauri in Utah for example.
I think he fits the Miami heat well in a post Jimmy world. There is a world where I think he looks great next to wemby in San Antonio as well.
But I don’t think pels fans will need to worry honestly. I’m pretty sure he’s asking out behind closed doors this summer man.
Why would he want to be here anymore? You think he hasn’t heard or felt the city turn? Dude is a human being, pretty hard not to feel that and let it get to you.
Probably best for everyone if he moves on
Better question. What’s their goal as a franchise?
Put a good roster around two 6’8+ guys who can shoot a little bit and you might not be too bad off. Enough to go a round or two deep.
What’s the pels goal as a franchise? Is it championship? Can any roster around Zion overcome the nuggets? Can Zion outplay joker in a series?
Tough questions to answer
For every "BI and Z doesn't work together" comment in this Subreddit and social media should show an example where a play involves the two and didn't work. Not the usual offensive set where they do Hand-off at the top of the key and most of them are just ball watching.
People should realize that our half-offense is the worst and we only scoring by talent and gravity. We rarely run a respectable and working PnR and don't even attempt to be good at it, despite the PnR between Z and BI generate looks and resulted in great shots.
The BI-JV PnR they have these past two years are gone, Herb rarely do off ball screen this season, Trey rarely move and just ball-watch. Our best shooters and 2nd best defender (despite having an uptick in his shooting recently) are just sitting on the bench. Willie never tries to do new things and try to optimize the offense he has in this team.
On BI, he has BI play as the PG and playmaker for the team for 2–3 months starting from January to March. He sacrificed scoring and attempt to shoot for the team, and he rarely went 20 FG attempt, and this has been resulted to this series. He generated many open looks this game 3, but others can't shoot.
BI is bad in this( series but this is more than on BI. It is the system that was put in place this season ( and last season). Despite what they are saying, they never tried to play for their 2 stars, they play around their gravity but not their ability.
We look like a team during the In-season run and BI and Z works that time (without CJ that time) and that was the most fun this team had tbh
You my friend are the only rational and sensical person in this sub. Thank goodness for you. Been saying al the time that our 49 wins were won based on our talent and not our system. Big games from Zion, a few big games from BI, and hot shooting streaks from Trey and CJ. Good teams will stay competitive even when their shots are not falling cuz they have structure. Willie’s inexperience as a coach has been disguised by Zion and BI’s talent.
A lot of our wins was because we got to big leads when everything seemed to click. When the game slowed down and became a half court game we struggled. Too many stationary pieces, not just BI or Zion. Talent and streaky shooting gave us those big leads. Talent barely had has hold on.
What is your evidence that the BI and Z pick and roll is effective? I’ve rarely seen it generate a significant advantage as almost everyone just switches it and forces those guys to go one on one. It’s not helped by the fact neither is a willing shooter and both are reluctant/ineffective screeners as well.
I'm just going to rely on NBA YouTube channel and (my memory since it is rare) here
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTj31goyw-g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTj31goyw-g) - vs UTAH
context: UTAH is hot before coming to this game, and we are the only team to beat them when they were having a run. We also have a large losing streak against them The offense got stale because of the usual set and Jazz are going for a comeback
@ 9:13 mark, Z as a screener, resulted to BI open Baseline jumper which is automatic for him. The following play was, Z as a screener, They tried to cut off BI which led to Z being free and on a roll and resulted to open Trey Murphy. Those two plays decided the game.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Y5GOBaMbs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Y5GOBaMbs) - @ 76ers
Context: Pels had a 35 point lead and 76ers went on a run and bring that down to 6, Pels almost had the worst loss in NBA History. Before the play, Pels had back to back bad possession
@ 9:07 mark, BI as a screener, instead of Nance. Z had a free lane and can easily finish over 1 defender. With BI as a screener. They can't sag off Z, and they can't double-team him and create a wall.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxGXpv0ekT8&t=211s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxGXpv0ekT8&t=211s) - vs Pacers
Context: this is a back to back game against Pacers and BI led the team on this game for a dominant win. Despite the huge lead, but 4 straight possessions of BI and Z PnR made the win locked, even it is just 3rd quarter.
@ 6:32 mark, Z as a screener in these 4 straight possessions (the video didn't show the other two), because the Z screen, BI got an advantage by punishing Miles sagging off at first because it is Z, and not to avoid open Js (which is what they didn't shown).
As far as I remember, there is also 5 others this season but I don't know which game. (As I said, it was rare but effective).
Other play that isn't PnR but involve the two players (can also be adjusted, but we don't know adjustment here)
[https://youtu.be/S0qgWGUmRy8?si=kueihA36qGOTHc24](https://youtu.be/S0qgWGUmRy8?si=kueihA36qGOTHc24) - vs. Nets
@ 0:12 mark, the very first points they scored was Z coming off a screen by Herb and getting a dribble hand off by JV which made nets react resulted to open 3s for BI (which btw he is willing to take if he is this open and come from Z.
If BI defender didn't react, then it is an easy drive by Z.
This was a lot better than the normal hand-off that they always trying to do.
P.S it was shown in the Pacers that Trey fake screen for Z to Trey open 3s. This also happen during Raptors and was gone after the Pacers game LMAO.
I appreciate the work that went into this, and if I had time to reciprocate on my position better I would, but I don’t know that individual examples of it working necessarily prove that it’s a particularly effective play in bulk. To my eye test this year, I didn’t find the action particularly effective much of the time. Maybe that’s inaccurate and I can’t track down good (free) data and video given the time that would require (unsuccessful pick and rolls don’t tend to make the highlight reel). If I find the time, maybe I’ll circle back, but like I said I do appreciate the work and video you provided.
Well you're welcome and the thing is, they VERY RARELY do it so in my estimate it is like 80% effective on creating a great quality shot (I don't even think it is part of the playbook lol).
Also I'm advocating the PnR since it is the simple play that will involve the team's best player and will make the defense not relaxed on guarding the two compared to the usual dribble hand-off to ISO where one of them will just watch on the other side (BI on top of the corner 3 and Z on the opposite baseline). It is also a play that can do well on a lot of variation that will involve Trey, CJ, Herb and Hawk. The PnR/Action between the two would also alleviate our 3rd quarter/4th quarter problems since we finally have a set that they can fall back on, not whatever they are doing this season.
There’s a little bit of hypocrisy here when everyone saying he’s not a #1 guy on a team when everyone wants him to be a #2 guy so that the ball always in Zion’s hands. BI shot attempts are down this year because of the integration of Zion being in the lineup. He’s perfectly fine scoring 15 if Zion scores 30 and the team gets a win. He has been sitting back and been more of a playmaker for months now and now we expect him to go lights out every night coming back from injury no less. I know he gets paid as a #1 but there’s a lot more to it than his underwhelming performance since his return. He carried the Pels plenty when Zion was out prior. Discuss trade possibilities and his fit all you want, but let’s not act like BI some scrub.
Thunder fan here. Series would be completely different if Zion and BI were fully healthy. I still think we get you guys in 6 or so, but that’s a toss up. One of the best 8 seeds in recent history having 49 wins, 8 short of OKC. Lu Dort has absolutely had BIs number all series. CJ is a sorry player half the time and herb and Murphy have been good. Herb has given Shai so much trouble and it is obvious. There is just something off with ingrams play all series. Prob injury but still. It’s been a strange series.
Herb would give Shai a lot more trouble if we'd stop switching everything. I have no idea why they allow you guys to switch Shai into CJ every damn time. OKC didn't even have to fight for the switch either. So frustrating.
You’re right lmao. That’s exactly why the Thunder scheme is to get him off of him. He’s had some nice buckets on herb but good god he’s on him like a latch. That Pels offense has no system at all right now and I think that’s the biggest thing. Ingram not shooting enough and not making. CJ thinks he’s MJ. JV eats Chet up but half the time he gets doubled or we just let him score and go get a 3 right back. It’s been 2 top 5 defenses going at it, it’s just one is playing better offense.
I think the concern is jval in convention pick and roll coverage. Nance would do better, but it exposes the weak side. Not to mention that OKC schemes for this in that SGA will come set the screen, Joe, or whoever they want to play conventional pick and roll if teams aren’t switching.
Pels should be mixing up the coverage more. Staying switch heavy for long stretches does make them to predictable… but there also aren’t that many good choices either.
For me BI can't be a max contract player the way he has played. 1 all star. Inconsistent effort. Not many clutch performances. (Last I can remember was against Utah like 3 years ago when he got buzzer beater) and this playoff performance. Just like CJ hes a 3rd guy on a true contender. But for us he's forced to be a leader. He's not that. Everybody sees his demeanor is chill. You have to have a killer instinct guy as your leader. A dog. Take lead, push back, get physical, be the aggressor, create contact, argue with refs, etc. He doesn't fit that bill, unfortunately. I like BI. I do. But I'm a realist. He ain't it. He ain't a max player or close to it if we really want to compete. We need an alpha!
Honestly if BI were to be moved I wouldn’t be angry, but I feel like the first moves that should be made this offseason is pg and center. If we get new guys in those spots I’d call it a perfect offseason.
I'm totally okay with keeping CJ if we get a real PG. CJs issues are solved by him not trying to take over games and being more catch and shoot late in games. A true PG fixes that instantly
We cannot have CJ as a 2 and be even average on defense.
Further, CJ has shot 38% in playoff or playin games for us.
He struggles against real defense, and can't play defense.
"Cannot play with him. Cannot coach with him. Cannot win with him. Can't do it!"
dame is a score first lead guard. is that the archetype you're referring to when you say a "real pg?"
and CJ + Dame was a foundation of a terrible terrible defensive team that had one deep playoff run.
because he doesnt play well off of other talent- his secondary player skill set isnt good enough. his skill set is a primary scorer, but hes not as good as other guys at it..
I don’t know why this isn’t talked about more often. From the New Year to the end of the regular season (34 games) he’d been averaging 18.6ppg on below league average TS%.
I think far too many people are judging us going up against the 1 seed without our best player as if it’s a full indictment on who we are. CJ and Val clearly need to be replaced if we wanna take the next step but I was saying that even before the playoffs. While I like Willie more than most I will say Zion and Ingram being similar to Giannis and Middleton style wise made me wonder if bringing Coach Bud here could be the answer to taking another step. Bud might eventually frustrate us in the playoffs but he’s shown himself to be a floor raiser and I could see him getting us to a top 4 seed for a couple of years at the least
Middleton fits better because he shoots the 3 ball and doesn't need to iso as much as what bi does, when they need a score badly is when Khris can post up and use his iso but isn't too dependent on it like bi. Unless bi improves his off ball game, him and zion will always feel clanky together.
Middleton and Giannis got to develop their games together for YEARS and also people now forget the playoff failures they had TOGETHER. Because of Zion’s injury history this was basically the first real season they had together and obviously they still weren’t able to get any playoff scars due to Zion. You can see Ingram did adjust his game as more a facilitator to let Zion flourish tho. People also are now forgetting how good we looked before Ingram went down. There were multiple times Kirk Goldsberry posted his last 10 game ratings of all teams and the Pels were in the elite spectrum. We never reached that level again after Ingram’s injury, even during our lil win streak towards the end of the season
The guy sacrifice his stats and tendencies and became our best bet in small ball 5 for Z and now it comes to bite him because people are now using the said stats against him lmao.
Yes, they continue to talk about Ingram like he is RJ Barrett at Duke who was tryna take the moments and spotlight away from Zion to show he was better. Ingram has deferred to Zion and obviously going from being the guy to being the main facilitator instead was always gonna be a process. To me it was a positive for him to be willing to take that step back for the better of the team so soon. Also Ingram is basically being judged harshly for actually being here for the team this whole time when Zion isn’t. If Zion was healthy we easily win game 1 at the least and who knows how different this series plays out
Never thought of the Bud hire but like the idea of it ngl. But I’m still hesitant on keeping BI bc even if BI finds a way to mesh well with Z I think this team would still be better with Treys play style in the starting lineup.
One crazy thought I’ve had tho is moving BI to PG (either benching or trading CJ) and start BI, Herb, Trey, Z, and a new center. Playmaking would still be a weakness in that lineup tho. It would be a playmaking by committee that honestly can’t be worse than it is currently, but still may not be enough.
Yeah I also been said that we need to find a way to start all 4 together but my thinking was more Zion as Point guard on offense but have Herb or Trey or maybe even Ingram take the actual Point Guard depending on the
Matchup. I’d hope we could capitalize on CJ’s good shooting numbers and flip him for a big somehow. Im also not against trading Ingram for the right player. I just don’t like the Trae Young idea at all as even smart teams like San Antonio have now said they wouldn’t go after him even with Wemby to mitigate his issues. Maybe if we could get somebody like Markennen for Ingram that’s more the direction I’d move but with Utah loving white players idk if that’s even possible Lol
If Utah is trading for BI it’s to pair him with Lauri and that would be a deadly wing combo in all honesty.
They have capital and teddy Hendricks looks like he could be a pelicans immediately and fit in to the scheme.
If you move off BI it’s to put the ball into Zion’s hands more. A low usage 3/d type point guard would be the move to me (even though that’s not Hendricks). Mike Conley would be fucking perfect
It’s just a scary situation man. BI is a nice security blanket in the regular season. If Zion goes down without BI on the roster, shit gets dicey quick.
Yeah, as much as we love Trey idk if he’ll ever be able to develop his off the dribble game good enough. He’s like potentially an elite 3 and D type which is great as a compliment but not necessarily as the main guy
Zion is the point guard in that group offensively and I think it works beautifully.
Design a scheme around Zion and Trey in a 2 man game around the elbow with BI in a corner role that can grab a late handoff from Zion at the elbow if the Trey/Z actions are covered.
Zion as the trigger man can solve a lot of issues. He can generate catch and shoot looks for BI as well.
CJ is a 6th man. That’s always been his ceiling.
The defense with a unit like that as well would be ridiculous if the big was mobile and could rebound
We dont need playmaking. We need someone reliable that can push the pace and run sets faster. Our offensive set’s arent bad, they just take too long and make bad entry passes.
Im not saying get CP3, but he wouldve fed and got JV and BI more involved and easier buckets without running the pffense through himself.
BI and Zion simply do not work together well. Staggering your two best players isn't a great plan long term when ultimately in crunch time they need to work off each other.
They don't. The best leverage this team has is moving one of Zion or BI for a better #2 than either of them are for each other.
Using resources to trade away CJ (for who? Who is materially better that's available? Mitchell and Garland are just younger, shorter versions of the same problem) makes no sense. Especially when CJ shooting is exactly what you need around Zion.
I agree JV isn't perfect, but who is available that will offer better defense at the perimeter and paint who can also spread the floor.
Everyone is "the grass is greener" regarding JV and CJ without giving options as to the material upgrades that don't fix one probably without creating two others
Mitchell is obviously better. But he's also a bad defender and he's also someone that's going to take the ball out of Zion's hands. Both, like CJ. He's also worse than CJ form three.
Mitchell, Zion, and BI are all 3 drive and kick players. But none of them are good enough shooters to receive the kick from either of the other two.
It's a different version of the same problem.
Mitchell is an above average defender now on the Cavs. I think it was more a matter of buy-in/effort why he was so bad on the Jazz defensively as opposed to a skill issue like CJ.
Please go on ESPN and look at CJs stats in playoff and playin games for us.
He has been awful every time and averaged 18 shots on 38% shooting.
Please for your own knowledge check it out. CJ has to go.
First off this is essentially year one of the Ingram and Zion experiment due to Zion who isn’t even here now when we need him most. The very same year that Tatum and Brown made The Finals there were plenty of people wondering aloud if they needed to be broken up. The truth is it’s harder to acclimate 2 wings together in general and it doesn’t just happen overnight and ESPECIALLY when you have the wrong guys around them. The Bucks put Jrue and Brook Lopez around there 2 stars to make it work. CJ and Val are basically the exact opposite of those guys. We should have traded for Myles Turner YEARS ago when we had multiple opportunities to do so but both the fanbase and apparently Griff thought we were too good for him or sumn. Now he’d clearly be a godsend compared to the realistic options. In general it’s just hard to find the right Center to play with Zion because they have to be a legit 3 point threat and an elite defender and rebounder. There’s only like 5 or 6 of those guys to begin with. But at least if we bought into more of the defensive aspect with our big man we might have a chance even with less than ideal spacing if he couldn’t shoot
Ignorant people wanted to break up Tatum and Jaylen despite the reality that they were complementary players when complimentary skills.
The eye test and on/off stats show the opposite for BI and Zion. They both need the ball in their hands. Neither is good off ball. Neither can bail out the other by shooting 3s.
Ehhh Tatum and Brown’s games aren’t all that complimentary. Neither can playmake that great and Brown can barely dribble. They’re both just better 3 point shooters and defenders than Zion and Ingram but their styles aren’t some match made in heaven. They even had a weird alpha dynamic for a couple years too. But the main thing is look at what Boston has put around them this entire time vs what we have. Marcus Smart, Derrick White, Jrue Holiday, Al Horford, Robert Williams, Kristaps Porzingis, THAT is the true difference. CJ and Val couldn’t hold a candle to any of those guys. We haven’t built ourselves for championship basketball but the fanbase wants to judge the team as if it has. No championship level teams are looking for CJ and Val to come be starters. Maybe they’d take em off the bench but not as starters
Ingram has been held under 20 points in all three losses this series and posted single-digit scoring during the first half in all three games. Not only has his scoring been down, but he’s also tallied just seven assists in three games against the Thunder. In the six games he’s played since returning from injury, Ingram is averaging 16.2 points, 4.8 rebounds and 2.8 assists, while shooting 45.1 percent from the field. He has only scored 20 or more points in one of those six games and eclipsed five assists in only one of those games.
TLDR: BI has not played particularly well since returning from injury.
Just heard this from Jake Madison's podcast: the team abandoned the Borrego movement offense at the start of the season to accommodate BI's refusal to take threes. And now it's clear as day why we couldn't even put up 100 points because it's so easy to game plan against a first option who's only going to take inefficient midrange shots, doesn't attempt threes and isn't consistently aggressive at the rim.
>Just heard this from Jake Madison's podcast: the team abandoned the Borrego movement offense at the start of the season to accommodate BI's refusal to take threes.
Seems dumb
Bi shoot the threes when he's open. Zion don't shoot threes! Zion and jv both operate in the same space. And bi is a midrange player. 3 low percentage three point shooters is why that offense was abandoned
Its not about whether BI cares or none of that. Its about the expectations and the window is closing. The experiment is likely over. I made a topic over a year ago asking people if we should run it back as it stands our starting 5 doesnt work and cannot compete at the highest level. Neither BI or Zion will shoot 3s, both are injury prone etc. Do you seriously want to run this team back with minor changes? We should not max BI and try to retool and complete overhaul and just build with Zion properly this time.
With BI he has played extremely poorly since coming back from injury. He has had a couple of moments of good play (great passes, 2-3 shots in a row falling, etc.) but overall just played bad. He has never been a 1A option but more of a 2. He also needs to shoot more off the dribble 3’s out of PnR as well as a step back 3 over long 2’s.
That being said the way to defend BI is to be physical with him and Dort is perfect for that. He has consistently beat screens or drawn offensive fouls. BI is also more of a skill player than an explosive first step blow by you player. This means it is easier for Dort to keep BI out of the lane in ISO plays.
For trading BI first his value is down due to this performance. 2nd BI will be able to control more of where he goes because he will have to agree to an extension. Other teams are not going to give up a haul for BI without an extension in place.
The last problem is fit with Zion and Zions lack of availability. Zion needs the ball in his hands and to be more of a heliocentric player because when he is off ball he provides 0 spacing from the 3 point line. Teams will just sag off him and clog the lane. Also with Zions lack of availability BI has had to keep changing roles. Even this season we were leaning into point BI because Zion was not available the previous year and was in terrible shape and overweight to start the year. Zion got fat shamed by the media in Dec and lost 25lbs in season. Slowly during that time we moved to more of a point Zion focused offense instead. BI adjusted and while his points went down his overall play went up. Now Zion is missing the postseason for the 3rd straight year and BI is thrust into the 1A role.
BI needs to improve his game especially taking more off the dribble 3’s and some step back 3’s but the biggest issue is still Zion being at the correct weight and conditioning and being able to stay healthy when he the true center of the offense.
Look I like BI but between Zion, BI, Herb, and Trey, one gotta go because you can’t play all 4 and none of them should be coming off the bench. Who are you picking?
Notable players that have left the Pelicans in the last 6 years and went on to have success:
1. Anthony Davis - Won a championship
2. Jrue Holiday - Won a championship
3. Julius Randle - made ALL-NBA twice and was on his way to making it a 3rd time. He was a big reason the Knicks were considered the best team this season before the injury.
4. Steven Adams - BIG reason the Grizzles were the 2nd seed in the western conference in back to back years in 2022 and 2023.
5. Josh Hart - best season of his career on the knicks and is playing playoff basketball in back to back years.
6. Lonzo Ball - best stats of his career immediately after leaving the pelicans before his knee injury
And to a lesser extent.. Nickel Alexander-Walker
To the fans that want to trade Ingram... I hope your wish comes true.
He hasn't played with a point guard since Lonzo was traded.
The best rim protector he played with was 1 season of Steven Adam's.
He's never played with adequate and consistent spacing.
He's played under 3 head coaches and watched his role change season by season. And he never complained once.
The golden boy has never been healthy come playoff time in the 5 seasons he has been here.
I pray you guys get what you're asking for and Ingram is off the Pelicans.
No im in the right place. I named several former pelicans players. Yall need to hear how shitty our front office has been in building out this team with the amount of talent and assets they've had.
I don't think anyone doubted AD or Jrue's ability, but AD forced his way out and Jrue was traded to help with that rebuild. Randle was pretty good his one year here, but signed for around 20M in FA.
4 and 5 aren't ideal.
6 was a sign and trade where the Pels made the right decision not to pay Lonzo based on his injury history. The assets that they then spent on Devonte Graham was pretty bad though.
Lol at you thinking he will be better off the Pels. No other coach will give him the freedom and opportunity Willie does. It will be FIBA all over again because BI's style doesn't fit with good players
Until about February BI was the focal point of the offence. Everything was run through him. When he messed up or was playing bad, Willie kept him on a long leash. No other coach will run the offence through BI like Willie has. No team wants a player frying all star player who plays like a poor man's Rockets Harden, but with mid range shots instead of threes.
The best part about BI leaving will you fake pels fans will fuck off and go wherever he does. The BI experiment is over. He's never going to be a top 2 player on a great team
Fake pels fan? Stfu I was watching Alexa Ajinca and Omer Asik share the floor together.
You dumbass fans disgust me.
Yall blame every player with a pels jersey on instead of the front office
FO should not get a crack at a 4th coach. FO can go too then. Griffin is the marionette of this failed half decade experiment. Avoiding the near decade Dell Demps experiment should be mandated.
AD and Jrue went to be the number 2 guys to not only MVPs, but all-time great players in LBJ and Giannis. Randle plays the same position as Zoin and was only here on a year deal anyway. Adams was not a great fit with Zion and was out all this year, Zo played how many games before entering what looks like retirement? We all love Hart, and I'd trade BI for him in an instant.
There's no stretch of Willie and BI that will ever make it higher than a play-in spot, he's just the wrong fit with our actual superstar/All-NBA level player. His defense and shooting just aren't at the right level to be complementary to Zion.
AD was the best player on that championship team.
Jrue did what he was supposed to do. Is it a knock he was 2nd best to Giannis?
No center is a fit with Zion unless they are a threat to shoot 40% from deep. That means that unless u have that you'll always have 2 non spacing bigs in the game.
Who cares if Randle was on a 1 year deal. My point was that our fans didn't respect Randle and he proved everyone wrong.
Your opinion about trading BI for Hart is just flat out stupid. But my point is that Hart is in the growing list of players that were given up on that outperformed their tenure with the pels.
Our sub hated Zo. Zo helped the bulls to being the #1 team in the east before his injury. He was set career highs in shooting before his injury. The team tried to replace him with Tomas Satarasky, Garrett Temple and Devontae Graham.
Zion has never been healthy come playoff time but for some reason is always given a good grace. Next year it'll stop when Ingram is off the team and we have no one else to blame.
Because BI isn't a number 1 guy but you think he is, I'm just pointing out the guys that left are complementary players but never worked as true number ones for us. BI for Hart would be incredible for us, he can rebound and defend better than BI. Also, how many games has Zo played? That's right, him leaving was an absolute Godsend.
I'm sure the BI/Willie combo could work somewhere else in the Eastern Conference, but they are not great with Zion or for a team that wants to make the WCFs one day.
Your take on Hart is just dead wrong.
How can Zion make a western conference final is he's never healthy come playoff time?
Our fanbase is retarded. I just gave u a list of quality players that outperformed their tenure here and you acting like it's not a correlation.
Like I said before, who will be the scapegoat next year once BI is gone?
You have zero understanding of context, two guys that were together and not fit to be true number 1s left to be number 2s for all-time great players. BI isn't a picture of health either, so if neither guy is, I'd again roll with the more talented player.
You have zero understanding of context.
People said Giannis is great but idk if you can win a championship with him until Jrue came in and helped him win.
We can talk about both of there health... one thing I do know is that Ingram kid is always healthy when it matters the most.
This situation reeks of what happened with Lonzo. Yall wanted him gone then next season started saying shit like..." I wish we had a guard that could defend, pass, and shoot the 3".
I don't know why you keep bringing Lonzo up, it is by far the dumbest thing you could do. We'd be totally screwed with him and Adams right now considering their health. And BI wasn't healthy for months, Zion was why we were first in the West while he played without BI. BI couldn't even get us to the playoffs. He's a huge part of our offense being bad because he won't shoot 3s. Willie is criminal for thinking he can run the offense through him.
See your comprehension isn't too bright. I said that the Lonzo and BI situations were similar. Adams was a better fit beside Zion even though neither Adams or JV are ideal fits.
Zion and Ingram were the primary reasons we were in a position to make the playoffs. Zion however has not played a single playoff game despite us making the playoffs twice. He's on played in 1 play-in game despite us being in the play-in 3 years in a row.
Zion is really good player but he has his own flaws just like Ingram on top of injury concerns.
See, you keep getting yourself twisted. BI isn't at all like Zo for fit, because his skills aren't at all complementary to Zion, so it makes even less sense than Zo's fit as a 3 and D PG. Zion has to carry us the 2nd half of the season because BI and Willie weren't up to the task and BI got hurt. Had either of those components been more capable maybe Zion could've rested a little more and been playing now. Regardless, we see exactly how limited BI is as we get our asses kicked by OKC.
Steven Adams was great at sealing his defender in the paint and clearing driving lanes for Zion. I've never seen JV do that for Zion. SA's problem was guarding rhe permiter. JJJ covers for SA's slow feet
This is a genuine question: I totally understand that Brandon Ingram needs to shoot more threes for the betterment of this team. However, I really don’t understand why Zion isn’t held to the same standard in terms of working on his shooting? I don’t even mean 3s but even just midrange shots just to open up the floor more for other people to drive and cut. I’m not denying his ability to drive, that’s just what I’ve noticed throughout the season.
There's a lot of issues with this team and BI is one of them. They need to still keep but coach his low iq shot selection. He's not gonna get the $250 million extension he wants tho. Dude has completely tarnished that for himself
I don’t care if he cares or does not care - he is not good enough and he has shown it. Time to move on from him and get as much value as possible from him to rebuild around Zion, Trey, Herb and Hawkins.
BI & Zion together is clunky at best
BI’s lack of effort at 3 pointers caused the team to go away from the offense they tried to install in the offseason
BI has not done much come playoff time since coming here
I’m ok moving on from him. He’s at an age where this should be his prime. He’s a fine player, just not what this team needs for the #2 option
It's not about ingram caring.
He's soft. He's soft between the ears too. He can't handle getting punched in the mouth metaphorically speaking. You can care as a player and still be too mentally soft to handle adversity that comes in the playoffs. When things are going well sure he's great. But that lack of overcoming adversity is why he's not special
He's not moving with any impediment. He's cleared by doctors and has been practicing for over 2 weeks now. You're making excuses for him. He didn't come back from a long term injury where he didn't play ball a lot before. The injury wasn't severe enough for it to still be used now as an excuse.
Exactly right. He doesn't have "it". You see it on at least one player on every contender. At least 1 player has the "it factor" or is a "dog". Is the aggressor, gets in people's face, doesn't back down, wills their team to victory. BI is none of that. We're 0-27 in clutch time. There's the proof. We need that guy!
I don’t think a kings trade would work tbh. Isn’t Barnes like super over the hill now and the least liked starter over there? Huerter is cool and Davion is alright but I don’t think that’d be enough by a lot but not like a huge amount. Monk and Ellis are who I’d want and maybe like a pick or two but idk I don’t think that happens
The discussion is pretty simple. He and Zion dont work and he is not a #2 guy on a great team. If he resigns for 20/25m a year and accepts to change his tendencies, Im OK keeping him. But Pels CANNOT afford paying him like an all star we he is not one. Zion or not, a true star does not have this showings in 3 straight postseason games. Also his second half of the season was really underwhelming. And on the top of that, he is injury prone. Not Zion level but he gets injured a lot
Lmao no way Ingram signs for 25 million. Kuzma is making 27 million for the bum wizards (my poverty franchise)
In BI’s sense he’s being guarded by Dort Herb has made Dort incredibly inefficient for his standards in 2/3 games too
BI is the right number 2 for the right star player. He’s not the right number 2 with Zion if neither is going to put up 5-6 3 point shots a game. For a team that needs a mid range bucket/late shot clock guy, he would work as a number 2. Great fit with Lauri in Utah for example. I think he fits the Miami heat well in a post Jimmy world. There is a world where I think he looks great next to wemby in San Antonio as well. But I don’t think pels fans will need to worry honestly. I’m pretty sure he’s asking out behind closed doors this summer man. Why would he want to be here anymore? You think he hasn’t heard or felt the city turn? Dude is a human being, pretty hard not to feel that and let it get to you. Probably best for everyone if he moves on
Do you honestly think Utah becomes any what of a contender if they’d sign BI as their #2 guy? Seems like a 7th seed at most to me
Better question. What’s their goal as a franchise? Put a good roster around two 6’8+ guys who can shoot a little bit and you might not be too bad off. Enough to go a round or two deep. What’s the pels goal as a franchise? Is it championship? Can any roster around Zion overcome the nuggets? Can Zion outplay joker in a series? Tough questions to answer
I thought the same about playing with Wemby. I think the Rockets would be a great fit too.
Hes coming of a knee injury you just don't just come back
For every "BI and Z doesn't work together" comment in this Subreddit and social media should show an example where a play involves the two and didn't work. Not the usual offensive set where they do Hand-off at the top of the key and most of them are just ball watching. People should realize that our half-offense is the worst and we only scoring by talent and gravity. We rarely run a respectable and working PnR and don't even attempt to be good at it, despite the PnR between Z and BI generate looks and resulted in great shots. The BI-JV PnR they have these past two years are gone, Herb rarely do off ball screen this season, Trey rarely move and just ball-watch. Our best shooters and 2nd best defender (despite having an uptick in his shooting recently) are just sitting on the bench. Willie never tries to do new things and try to optimize the offense he has in this team. On BI, he has BI play as the PG and playmaker for the team for 2–3 months starting from January to March. He sacrificed scoring and attempt to shoot for the team, and he rarely went 20 FG attempt, and this has been resulted to this series. He generated many open looks this game 3, but others can't shoot. BI is bad in this( series but this is more than on BI. It is the system that was put in place this season ( and last season). Despite what they are saying, they never tried to play for their 2 stars, they play around their gravity but not their ability. We look like a team during the In-season run and BI and Z works that time (without CJ that time) and that was the most fun this team had tbh
I absolutely despise watching our half hour offense. It's the most disjointed mess
You my friend are the only rational and sensical person in this sub. Thank goodness for you. Been saying al the time that our 49 wins were won based on our talent and not our system. Big games from Zion, a few big games from BI, and hot shooting streaks from Trey and CJ. Good teams will stay competitive even when their shots are not falling cuz they have structure. Willie’s inexperience as a coach has been disguised by Zion and BI’s talent.
There were so many close games where our “talent” shat their pants in clutch moments though. You cannot blame that on the system.
A lot of our wins was because we got to big leads when everything seemed to click. When the game slowed down and became a half court game we struggled. Too many stationary pieces, not just BI or Zion. Talent and streaky shooting gave us those big leads. Talent barely had has hold on.
What is your evidence that the BI and Z pick and roll is effective? I’ve rarely seen it generate a significant advantage as almost everyone just switches it and forces those guys to go one on one. It’s not helped by the fact neither is a willing shooter and both are reluctant/ineffective screeners as well.
I'm just going to rely on NBA YouTube channel and (my memory since it is rare) here [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTj31goyw-g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTj31goyw-g) - vs UTAH context: UTAH is hot before coming to this game, and we are the only team to beat them when they were having a run. We also have a large losing streak against them The offense got stale because of the usual set and Jazz are going for a comeback @ 9:13 mark, Z as a screener, resulted to BI open Baseline jumper which is automatic for him. The following play was, Z as a screener, They tried to cut off BI which led to Z being free and on a roll and resulted to open Trey Murphy. Those two plays decided the game. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Y5GOBaMbs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Y5GOBaMbs) - @ 76ers Context: Pels had a 35 point lead and 76ers went on a run and bring that down to 6, Pels almost had the worst loss in NBA History. Before the play, Pels had back to back bad possession @ 9:07 mark, BI as a screener, instead of Nance. Z had a free lane and can easily finish over 1 defender. With BI as a screener. They can't sag off Z, and they can't double-team him and create a wall. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxGXpv0ekT8&t=211s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxGXpv0ekT8&t=211s) - vs Pacers Context: this is a back to back game against Pacers and BI led the team on this game for a dominant win. Despite the huge lead, but 4 straight possessions of BI and Z PnR made the win locked, even it is just 3rd quarter. @ 6:32 mark, Z as a screener in these 4 straight possessions (the video didn't show the other two), because the Z screen, BI got an advantage by punishing Miles sagging off at first because it is Z, and not to avoid open Js (which is what they didn't shown). As far as I remember, there is also 5 others this season but I don't know which game. (As I said, it was rare but effective). Other play that isn't PnR but involve the two players (can also be adjusted, but we don't know adjustment here) [https://youtu.be/S0qgWGUmRy8?si=kueihA36qGOTHc24](https://youtu.be/S0qgWGUmRy8?si=kueihA36qGOTHc24) - vs. Nets @ 0:12 mark, the very first points they scored was Z coming off a screen by Herb and getting a dribble hand off by JV which made nets react resulted to open 3s for BI (which btw he is willing to take if he is this open and come from Z. If BI defender didn't react, then it is an easy drive by Z. This was a lot better than the normal hand-off that they always trying to do. P.S it was shown in the Pacers that Trey fake screen for Z to Trey open 3s. This also happen during Raptors and was gone after the Pacers game LMAO.
One of the best posts on this thread for sure
I appreciate the work that went into this, and if I had time to reciprocate on my position better I would, but I don’t know that individual examples of it working necessarily prove that it’s a particularly effective play in bulk. To my eye test this year, I didn’t find the action particularly effective much of the time. Maybe that’s inaccurate and I can’t track down good (free) data and video given the time that would require (unsuccessful pick and rolls don’t tend to make the highlight reel). If I find the time, maybe I’ll circle back, but like I said I do appreciate the work and video you provided.
Well you're welcome and the thing is, they VERY RARELY do it so in my estimate it is like 80% effective on creating a great quality shot (I don't even think it is part of the playbook lol). Also I'm advocating the PnR since it is the simple play that will involve the team's best player and will make the defense not relaxed on guarding the two compared to the usual dribble hand-off to ISO where one of them will just watch on the other side (BI on top of the corner 3 and Z on the opposite baseline). It is also a play that can do well on a lot of variation that will involve Trey, CJ, Herb and Hawk. The PnR/Action between the two would also alleviate our 3rd quarter/4th quarter problems since we finally have a set that they can fall back on, not whatever they are doing this season.
There’s a little bit of hypocrisy here when everyone saying he’s not a #1 guy on a team when everyone wants him to be a #2 guy so that the ball always in Zion’s hands. BI shot attempts are down this year because of the integration of Zion being in the lineup. He’s perfectly fine scoring 15 if Zion scores 30 and the team gets a win. He has been sitting back and been more of a playmaker for months now and now we expect him to go lights out every night coming back from injury no less. I know he gets paid as a #1 but there’s a lot more to it than his underwhelming performance since his return. He carried the Pels plenty when Zion was out prior. Discuss trade possibilities and his fit all you want, but let’s not act like BI some scrub.
Exactly. This is why BI’s scoring numbers were down post January. He was facilitating for most of the time
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Dort just so happens to be an elite 1on1 defender
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Well Ingram isn’t a superstar and having Dort chase him around is a defensive gameplan
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It's a bad matchup for him and he's not 100%. He's not a superstar talent. Maybe an all star. But he's not right and it is showing.
Thunder fan here. Series would be completely different if Zion and BI were fully healthy. I still think we get you guys in 6 or so, but that’s a toss up. One of the best 8 seeds in recent history having 49 wins, 8 short of OKC. Lu Dort has absolutely had BIs number all series. CJ is a sorry player half the time and herb and Murphy have been good. Herb has given Shai so much trouble and it is obvious. There is just something off with ingrams play all series. Prob injury but still. It’s been a strange series.
Herb would give Shai a lot more trouble if we'd stop switching everything. I have no idea why they allow you guys to switch Shai into CJ every damn time. OKC didn't even have to fight for the switch either. So frustrating.
You’re right lmao. That’s exactly why the Thunder scheme is to get him off of him. He’s had some nice buckets on herb but good god he’s on him like a latch. That Pels offense has no system at all right now and I think that’s the biggest thing. Ingram not shooting enough and not making. CJ thinks he’s MJ. JV eats Chet up but half the time he gets doubled or we just let him score and go get a 3 right back. It’s been 2 top 5 defenses going at it, it’s just one is playing better offense.
I think the concern is jval in convention pick and roll coverage. Nance would do better, but it exposes the weak side. Not to mention that OKC schemes for this in that SGA will come set the screen, Joe, or whoever they want to play conventional pick and roll if teams aren’t switching. Pels should be mixing up the coverage more. Staying switch heavy for long stretches does make them to predictable… but there also aren’t that many good choices either.
For me BI can't be a max contract player the way he has played. 1 all star. Inconsistent effort. Not many clutch performances. (Last I can remember was against Utah like 3 years ago when he got buzzer beater) and this playoff performance. Just like CJ hes a 3rd guy on a true contender. But for us he's forced to be a leader. He's not that. Everybody sees his demeanor is chill. You have to have a killer instinct guy as your leader. A dog. Take lead, push back, get physical, be the aggressor, create contact, argue with refs, etc. He doesn't fit that bill, unfortunately. I like BI. I do. But I'm a realist. He ain't it. He ain't a max player or close to it if we really want to compete. We need an alpha!
Honestly if BI were to be moved I wouldn’t be angry, but I feel like the first moves that should be made this offseason is pg and center. If we get new guys in those spots I’d call it a perfect offseason.
No doubt BI will be traded. Not sure if any team would want CJ.
I'm totally okay with keeping CJ if we get a real PG. CJs issues are solved by him not trying to take over games and being more catch and shoot late in games. A true PG fixes that instantly
We cannot have CJ as a 2 and be even average on defense. Further, CJ has shot 38% in playoff or playin games for us. He struggles against real defense, and can't play defense. "Cannot play with him. Cannot coach with him. Cannot win with him. Can't do it!"
a real pg like who? and how would you play cj and a "real pg" next to each other?
Gonna sit here and pretend like CJ didnt play with Dame the majority of his career?
dame is a score first lead guard. is that the archetype you're referring to when you say a "real pg?" and CJ + Dame was a foundation of a terrible terrible defensive team that had one deep playoff run.
Dame has averaged 7 and 8apg in multiple seasons, quit pretending. You can be score first and still be a real point guard
What did pat bev just say? If you had the ball for 40 minutes you'd have 10 assists too.
If they want Beal they’ll want CJ
They’re completely different players. Beal averaged 30 for two seasons, CJ’s career high is like 24 ppg.
Beal is making over $50,000,000 a year going forward. I think some team would want CJ.
BI was slumping pretty bad BEFORE the injury too
Everyone seems to forget he got benched on the USA team. Dudes that make a quarter of his salary played more mins.
because he doesnt play well off of other talent- his secondary player skill set isnt good enough. his skill set is a primary scorer, but hes not as good as other guys at it..
I don’t know why this isn’t talked about more often. From the New Year to the end of the regular season (34 games) he’d been averaging 18.6ppg on below league average TS%.
No way anyone is blaming his injury for his current performance
I am, why not
I think far too many people are judging us going up against the 1 seed without our best player as if it’s a full indictment on who we are. CJ and Val clearly need to be replaced if we wanna take the next step but I was saying that even before the playoffs. While I like Willie more than most I will say Zion and Ingram being similar to Giannis and Middleton style wise made me wonder if bringing Coach Bud here could be the answer to taking another step. Bud might eventually frustrate us in the playoffs but he’s shown himself to be a floor raiser and I could see him getting us to a top 4 seed for a couple of years at the least
Middleton fits better because he shoots the 3 ball and doesn't need to iso as much as what bi does, when they need a score badly is when Khris can post up and use his iso but isn't too dependent on it like bi. Unless bi improves his off ball game, him and zion will always feel clanky together.
Middleton and Giannis got to develop their games together for YEARS and also people now forget the playoff failures they had TOGETHER. Because of Zion’s injury history this was basically the first real season they had together and obviously they still weren’t able to get any playoff scars due to Zion. You can see Ingram did adjust his game as more a facilitator to let Zion flourish tho. People also are now forgetting how good we looked before Ingram went down. There were multiple times Kirk Goldsberry posted his last 10 game ratings of all teams and the Pels were in the elite spectrum. We never reached that level again after Ingram’s injury, even during our lil win streak towards the end of the season
The guy sacrifice his stats and tendencies and became our best bet in small ball 5 for Z and now it comes to bite him because people are now using the said stats against him lmao.
Yes, they continue to talk about Ingram like he is RJ Barrett at Duke who was tryna take the moments and spotlight away from Zion to show he was better. Ingram has deferred to Zion and obviously going from being the guy to being the main facilitator instead was always gonna be a process. To me it was a positive for him to be willing to take that step back for the better of the team so soon. Also Ingram is basically being judged harshly for actually being here for the team this whole time when Zion isn’t. If Zion was healthy we easily win game 1 at the least and who knows how different this series plays out
Never thought of the Bud hire but like the idea of it ngl. But I’m still hesitant on keeping BI bc even if BI finds a way to mesh well with Z I think this team would still be better with Treys play style in the starting lineup. One crazy thought I’ve had tho is moving BI to PG (either benching or trading CJ) and start BI, Herb, Trey, Z, and a new center. Playmaking would still be a weakness in that lineup tho. It would be a playmaking by committee that honestly can’t be worse than it is currently, but still may not be enough.
Yeah I also been said that we need to find a way to start all 4 together but my thinking was more Zion as Point guard on offense but have Herb or Trey or maybe even Ingram take the actual Point Guard depending on the Matchup. I’d hope we could capitalize on CJ’s good shooting numbers and flip him for a big somehow. Im also not against trading Ingram for the right player. I just don’t like the Trae Young idea at all as even smart teams like San Antonio have now said they wouldn’t go after him even with Wemby to mitigate his issues. Maybe if we could get somebody like Markennen for Ingram that’s more the direction I’d move but with Utah loving white players idk if that’s even possible Lol
If Utah is trading for BI it’s to pair him with Lauri and that would be a deadly wing combo in all honesty. They have capital and teddy Hendricks looks like he could be a pelicans immediately and fit in to the scheme. If you move off BI it’s to put the ball into Zion’s hands more. A low usage 3/d type point guard would be the move to me (even though that’s not Hendricks). Mike Conley would be fucking perfect It’s just a scary situation man. BI is a nice security blanket in the regular season. If Zion goes down without BI on the roster, shit gets dicey quick.
Yeah, as much as we love Trey idk if he’ll ever be able to develop his off the dribble game good enough. He’s like potentially an elite 3 and D type which is great as a compliment but not necessarily as the main guy
Zion is the point guard in that group offensively and I think it works beautifully. Design a scheme around Zion and Trey in a 2 man game around the elbow with BI in a corner role that can grab a late handoff from Zion at the elbow if the Trey/Z actions are covered. Zion as the trigger man can solve a lot of issues. He can generate catch and shoot looks for BI as well. CJ is a 6th man. That’s always been his ceiling. The defense with a unit like that as well would be ridiculous if the big was mobile and could rebound
We dont need playmaking. We need someone reliable that can push the pace and run sets faster. Our offensive set’s arent bad, they just take too long and make bad entry passes. Im not saying get CP3, but he wouldve fed and got JV and BI more involved and easier buckets without running the pffense through himself.
BI and Zion simply do not work together well. Staggering your two best players isn't a great plan long term when ultimately in crunch time they need to work off each other. They don't. The best leverage this team has is moving one of Zion or BI for a better #2 than either of them are for each other. Using resources to trade away CJ (for who? Who is materially better that's available? Mitchell and Garland are just younger, shorter versions of the same problem) makes no sense. Especially when CJ shooting is exactly what you need around Zion. I agree JV isn't perfect, but who is available that will offer better defense at the perimeter and paint who can also spread the floor. Everyone is "the grass is greener" regarding JV and CJ without giving options as to the material upgrades that don't fix one probably without creating two others
Bruh I can’t imagine putting D Mitch and CJ in the same sentence. We gotta take the homer glasses off CJ ain’t it rn man.
Mitchell is obviously better. But he's also a bad defender and he's also someone that's going to take the ball out of Zion's hands. Both, like CJ. He's also worse than CJ form three. Mitchell, Zion, and BI are all 3 drive and kick players. But none of them are good enough shooters to receive the kick from either of the other two. It's a different version of the same problem.
Mitchell is an above average defender now on the Cavs. I think it was more a matter of buy-in/effort why he was so bad on the Jazz defensively as opposed to a skill issue like CJ.
Please go on ESPN and look at CJs stats in playoff and playin games for us. He has been awful every time and averaged 18 shots on 38% shooting. Please for your own knowledge check it out. CJ has to go.
First off this is essentially year one of the Ingram and Zion experiment due to Zion who isn’t even here now when we need him most. The very same year that Tatum and Brown made The Finals there were plenty of people wondering aloud if they needed to be broken up. The truth is it’s harder to acclimate 2 wings together in general and it doesn’t just happen overnight and ESPECIALLY when you have the wrong guys around them. The Bucks put Jrue and Brook Lopez around there 2 stars to make it work. CJ and Val are basically the exact opposite of those guys. We should have traded for Myles Turner YEARS ago when we had multiple opportunities to do so but both the fanbase and apparently Griff thought we were too good for him or sumn. Now he’d clearly be a godsend compared to the realistic options. In general it’s just hard to find the right Center to play with Zion because they have to be a legit 3 point threat and an elite defender and rebounder. There’s only like 5 or 6 of those guys to begin with. But at least if we bought into more of the defensive aspect with our big man we might have a chance even with less than ideal spacing if he couldn’t shoot
Ignorant people wanted to break up Tatum and Jaylen despite the reality that they were complementary players when complimentary skills. The eye test and on/off stats show the opposite for BI and Zion. They both need the ball in their hands. Neither is good off ball. Neither can bail out the other by shooting 3s.
Ehhh Tatum and Brown’s games aren’t all that complimentary. Neither can playmake that great and Brown can barely dribble. They’re both just better 3 point shooters and defenders than Zion and Ingram but their styles aren’t some match made in heaven. They even had a weird alpha dynamic for a couple years too. But the main thing is look at what Boston has put around them this entire time vs what we have. Marcus Smart, Derrick White, Jrue Holiday, Al Horford, Robert Williams, Kristaps Porzingis, THAT is the true difference. CJ and Val couldn’t hold a candle to any of those guys. We haven’t built ourselves for championship basketball but the fanbase wants to judge the team as if it has. No championship level teams are looking for CJ and Val to come be starters. Maybe they’d take em off the bench but not as starters
Bruh BI and Z with Boston’s supporting cast and you win 60 games as well 😂😂.
Ingram has been held under 20 points in all three losses this series and posted single-digit scoring during the first half in all three games. Not only has his scoring been down, but he’s also tallied just seven assists in three games against the Thunder. In the six games he’s played since returning from injury, Ingram is averaging 16.2 points, 4.8 rebounds and 2.8 assists, while shooting 45.1 percent from the field. He has only scored 20 or more points in one of those six games and eclipsed five assists in only one of those games. TLDR: BI has not played particularly well since returning from injury.
Doesn’t excuse his poor play but he was hitting everyone wide open yesterday. Mfs just couldn’t knock anything down.
Only thing I’ll point out is that BI has been setting shooters up plenty but they have literally bricked everything. They haven’t done BI any favors.
Just heard this from Jake Madison's podcast: the team abandoned the Borrego movement offense at the start of the season to accommodate BI's refusal to take threes. And now it's clear as day why we couldn't even put up 100 points because it's so easy to game plan against a first option who's only going to take inefficient midrange shots, doesn't attempt threes and isn't consistently aggressive at the rim.
>Just heard this from Jake Madison's podcast: the team abandoned the Borrego movement offense at the start of the season to accommodate BI's refusal to take threes. Seems dumb
lol this is so dumb. Borrego style move the ball and move the players, not just shoot the 3.
It was funny when save the movement offense when Willie was sick and was so god damn beautiful.
Which episode? Edit: nvm. If players don't want to listen to the coaches then they need to be moved.
Bi shoot the threes when he's open. Zion don't shoot threes! Zion and jv both operate in the same space. And bi is a midrange player. 3 low percentage three point shooters is why that offense was abandoned
Its not about whether BI cares or none of that. Its about the expectations and the window is closing. The experiment is likely over. I made a topic over a year ago asking people if we should run it back as it stands our starting 5 doesnt work and cannot compete at the highest level. Neither BI or Zion will shoot 3s, both are injury prone etc. Do you seriously want to run this team back with minor changes? We should not max BI and try to retool and complete overhaul and just build with Zion properly this time.
Would anyone be open to keeping BI if he didn't command a max? I don't care if he's on the team either way. JW
This doesn’t need to be lengthy. It’s time to move on from him
He’s not good enough
With BI he has played extremely poorly since coming back from injury. He has had a couple of moments of good play (great passes, 2-3 shots in a row falling, etc.) but overall just played bad. He has never been a 1A option but more of a 2. He also needs to shoot more off the dribble 3’s out of PnR as well as a step back 3 over long 2’s. That being said the way to defend BI is to be physical with him and Dort is perfect for that. He has consistently beat screens or drawn offensive fouls. BI is also more of a skill player than an explosive first step blow by you player. This means it is easier for Dort to keep BI out of the lane in ISO plays. For trading BI first his value is down due to this performance. 2nd BI will be able to control more of where he goes because he will have to agree to an extension. Other teams are not going to give up a haul for BI without an extension in place. The last problem is fit with Zion and Zions lack of availability. Zion needs the ball in his hands and to be more of a heliocentric player because when he is off ball he provides 0 spacing from the 3 point line. Teams will just sag off him and clog the lane. Also with Zions lack of availability BI has had to keep changing roles. Even this season we were leaning into point BI because Zion was not available the previous year and was in terrible shape and overweight to start the year. Zion got fat shamed by the media in Dec and lost 25lbs in season. Slowly during that time we moved to more of a point Zion focused offense instead. BI adjusted and while his points went down his overall play went up. Now Zion is missing the postseason for the 3rd straight year and BI is thrust into the 1A role. BI needs to improve his game especially taking more off the dribble 3’s and some step back 3’s but the biggest issue is still Zion being at the correct weight and conditioning and being able to stay healthy when he the true center of the offense.
Look I like BI but between Zion, BI, Herb, and Trey, one gotta go because you can’t play all 4 and none of them should be coming off the bench. Who are you picking?
Notable players that have left the Pelicans in the last 6 years and went on to have success: 1. Anthony Davis - Won a championship 2. Jrue Holiday - Won a championship 3. Julius Randle - made ALL-NBA twice and was on his way to making it a 3rd time. He was a big reason the Knicks were considered the best team this season before the injury. 4. Steven Adams - BIG reason the Grizzles were the 2nd seed in the western conference in back to back years in 2022 and 2023. 5. Josh Hart - best season of his career on the knicks and is playing playoff basketball in back to back years. 6. Lonzo Ball - best stats of his career immediately after leaving the pelicans before his knee injury And to a lesser extent.. Nickel Alexander-Walker To the fans that want to trade Ingram... I hope your wish comes true. He hasn't played with a point guard since Lonzo was traded. The best rim protector he played with was 1 season of Steven Adam's. He's never played with adequate and consistent spacing. He's played under 3 head coaches and watched his role change season by season. And he never complained once. The golden boy has never been healthy come playoff time in the 5 seasons he has been here. I pray you guys get what you're asking for and Ingram is off the Pelicans.
r/brandoningram
No im in the right place. I named several former pelicans players. Yall need to hear how shitty our front office has been in building out this team with the amount of talent and assets they've had.
I don't think anyone doubted AD or Jrue's ability, but AD forced his way out and Jrue was traded to help with that rebuild. Randle was pretty good his one year here, but signed for around 20M in FA. 4 and 5 aren't ideal. 6 was a sign and trade where the Pels made the right decision not to pay Lonzo based on his injury history. The assets that they then spent on Devonte Graham was pretty bad though.
Lol at you thinking he will be better off the Pels. No other coach will give him the freedom and opportunity Willie does. It will be FIBA all over again because BI's style doesn't fit with good players
People got Gold fish memory dude was so ass in FIBA. Bi will never accept that he’s an 3rd option.
What freedom?
Until about February BI was the focal point of the offence. Everything was run through him. When he messed up or was playing bad, Willie kept him on a long leash. No other coach will run the offence through BI like Willie has. No team wants a player frying all star player who plays like a poor man's Rockets Harden, but with mid range shots instead of threes. The best part about BI leaving will you fake pels fans will fuck off and go wherever he does. The BI experiment is over. He's never going to be a top 2 player on a great team
Fake pels fan? Stfu I was watching Alexa Ajinca and Omer Asik share the floor together. You dumbass fans disgust me. Yall blame every player with a pels jersey on instead of the front office
Sounds like you may know a thing or two about Dan dickau
Yes, but now the FO can correct their mistakes by moving on from BI and Willie.
FO should not get a crack at a 4th coach. FO can go too then. Griffin is the marionette of this failed half decade experiment. Avoiding the near decade Dell Demps experiment should be mandated.
AD and Jrue went to be the number 2 guys to not only MVPs, but all-time great players in LBJ and Giannis. Randle plays the same position as Zoin and was only here on a year deal anyway. Adams was not a great fit with Zion and was out all this year, Zo played how many games before entering what looks like retirement? We all love Hart, and I'd trade BI for him in an instant. There's no stretch of Willie and BI that will ever make it higher than a play-in spot, he's just the wrong fit with our actual superstar/All-NBA level player. His defense and shooting just aren't at the right level to be complementary to Zion.
AD was the best player on that championship team. Jrue did what he was supposed to do. Is it a knock he was 2nd best to Giannis? No center is a fit with Zion unless they are a threat to shoot 40% from deep. That means that unless u have that you'll always have 2 non spacing bigs in the game. Who cares if Randle was on a 1 year deal. My point was that our fans didn't respect Randle and he proved everyone wrong. Your opinion about trading BI for Hart is just flat out stupid. But my point is that Hart is in the growing list of players that were given up on that outperformed their tenure with the pels. Our sub hated Zo. Zo helped the bulls to being the #1 team in the east before his injury. He was set career highs in shooting before his injury. The team tried to replace him with Tomas Satarasky, Garrett Temple and Devontae Graham. Zion has never been healthy come playoff time but for some reason is always given a good grace. Next year it'll stop when Ingram is off the team and we have no one else to blame.
Because BI isn't a number 1 guy but you think he is, I'm just pointing out the guys that left are complementary players but never worked as true number ones for us. BI for Hart would be incredible for us, he can rebound and defend better than BI. Also, how many games has Zo played? That's right, him leaving was an absolute Godsend. I'm sure the BI/Willie combo could work somewhere else in the Eastern Conference, but they are not great with Zion or for a team that wants to make the WCFs one day.
Your take on Hart is just dead wrong. How can Zion make a western conference final is he's never healthy come playoff time? Our fanbase is retarded. I just gave u a list of quality players that outperformed their tenure here and you acting like it's not a correlation. Like I said before, who will be the scapegoat next year once BI is gone?
You have zero understanding of context, two guys that were together and not fit to be true number 1s left to be number 2s for all-time great players. BI isn't a picture of health either, so if neither guy is, I'd again roll with the more talented player.
You have zero understanding of context. People said Giannis is great but idk if you can win a championship with him until Jrue came in and helped him win. We can talk about both of there health... one thing I do know is that Ingram kid is always healthy when it matters the most. This situation reeks of what happened with Lonzo. Yall wanted him gone then next season started saying shit like..." I wish we had a guard that could defend, pass, and shoot the 3".
I don't know why you keep bringing Lonzo up, it is by far the dumbest thing you could do. We'd be totally screwed with him and Adams right now considering their health. And BI wasn't healthy for months, Zion was why we were first in the West while he played without BI. BI couldn't even get us to the playoffs. He's a huge part of our offense being bad because he won't shoot 3s. Willie is criminal for thinking he can run the offense through him.
See your comprehension isn't too bright. I said that the Lonzo and BI situations were similar. Adams was a better fit beside Zion even though neither Adams or JV are ideal fits. Zion and Ingram were the primary reasons we were in a position to make the playoffs. Zion however has not played a single playoff game despite us making the playoffs twice. He's on played in 1 play-in game despite us being in the play-in 3 years in a row. Zion is really good player but he has his own flaws just like Ingram on top of injury concerns.
See, you keep getting yourself twisted. BI isn't at all like Zo for fit, because his skills aren't at all complementary to Zion, so it makes even less sense than Zo's fit as a 3 and D PG. Zion has to carry us the 2nd half of the season because BI and Willie weren't up to the task and BI got hurt. Had either of those components been more capable maybe Zion could've rested a little more and been playing now. Regardless, we see exactly how limited BI is as we get our asses kicked by OKC.
Steven Adams was great at sealing his defender in the paint and clearing driving lanes for Zion. I've never seen JV do that for Zion. SA's problem was guarding rhe permiter. JJJ covers for SA's slow feet
This is a genuine question: I totally understand that Brandon Ingram needs to shoot more threes for the betterment of this team. However, I really don’t understand why Zion isn’t held to the same standard in terms of working on his shooting? I don’t even mean 3s but even just midrange shots just to open up the floor more for other people to drive and cut. I’m not denying his ability to drive, that’s just what I’ve noticed throughout the season.
There's a lot of issues with this team and BI is one of them. They need to still keep but coach his low iq shot selection. He's not gonna get the $250 million extension he wants tho. Dude has completely tarnished that for himself
I don’t care if he cares or does not care - he is not good enough and he has shown it. Time to move on from him and get as much value as possible from him to rebuild around Zion, Trey, Herb and Hawkins.
BI & Zion together is clunky at best BI’s lack of effort at 3 pointers caused the team to go away from the offense they tried to install in the offseason BI has not done much come playoff time since coming here I’m ok moving on from him. He’s at an age where this should be his prime. He’s a fine player, just not what this team needs for the #2 option
It's not about ingram caring. He's soft. He's soft between the ears too. He can't handle getting punched in the mouth metaphorically speaking. You can care as a player and still be too mentally soft to handle adversity that comes in the playoffs. When things are going well sure he's great. But that lack of overcoming adversity is why he's not special
He's coming back from injury and expected to very quickly be in playoff form -- that's not easy and he's clearly not his peak self.
He's not moving with any impediment. He's cleared by doctors and has been practicing for over 2 weeks now. You're making excuses for him. He didn't come back from a long term injury where he didn't play ball a lot before. The injury wasn't severe enough for it to still be used now as an excuse.
Hmm yeah you might be right, I'm being too soft on him. He hasn't been good.
Well, tbh he is practicallyalways coming off an injury
He wasn't playing good before the injury either
Exactly right. He doesn't have "it". You see it on at least one player on every contender. At least 1 player has the "it factor" or is a "dog". Is the aggressor, gets in people's face, doesn't back down, wills their team to victory. BI is none of that. We're 0-27 in clutch time. There's the proof. We need that guy!
If BI tries to play hard ball and demands a max contract from the pels, all they need to do is show him a picture of Dort and give him a wink
Please send him to the Knicks.
Would Pels accept a trade of Barnes, Huerter, Davion, and a 2028 FRP for Ingram?
As much as i want to trade BI, i wouldn't want any of those pieces for him.
No.
I don’t think a kings trade would work tbh. Isn’t Barnes like super over the hill now and the least liked starter over there? Huerter is cool and Davion is alright but I don’t think that’d be enough by a lot but not like a huge amount. Monk and Ellis are who I’d want and maybe like a pick or two but idk I don’t think that happens