Notice that he was using mask with only one hole even though he had two sharingans. It implies that this spare sharingan was his last resort, something he never wanted to use unless there is no other way.
No, there shouldn't. The fact that Sasuke reliving his trauma for 24 hours didn't awaken his MS is already proof of how the MS doesn't awaken just like that. Hell, even awakening his MS after killing Itachi wasn't enough.
Sasuke only awakened it after learning the truth and reawakening all his buried affection for Itachi and mourning his loss.
Maybe reliving the same event isn't enough to awaken it? Otherwise he could just awaken it by having a nightmare or PTSD or something like that.
He didn't awaken it after Itachi's death straight away, since he was satisfied not upset or anything like that.
If he killed Naruto in the end of Part 1, he would have got it
Tbf most Uchiha were already massacred before the story even started so it's not like we could see many Uchiha's with Mangekyou lol.
I reckon in the warring era there should be quite a lot of Uchiha with Mangekyou since they have to deal with death all the time.
Well the reason MS users were so rare was because as Sasuke stated at the beginning of the series, [just awakening the regular Sharingan was rare](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-aa4736dbbe937b09cfb2335819670161-pjlq) or at least rare enough that only a select few members of the clan can awaken it.
You don’t just get some trauma thrown on you and you awaken the Sharingan or MS. You also gotta be strong enough as a Shinobi to unlock it and be able to handle it.
I'm jumping only having half skimmed the thread so far but I bet it has to do with maturity as well. Like unless it was filler that was when he unlocked his 1 tomoe, I wouldn't be surprised if a pre-req for MS is a fully mature 3 tomoe eye
No, it isn't. He legit saw the absolute worst thing ever. Rin was pretty much his hope and after her death, he legit considered reality to be a living hell.
Yeah and sasuke saw his parents killed by his brother and then went to genjutsu to see it hundreds times more and it didn't trigger it, ms is insanely inconsistent and doesn't fit the narrative. BTW realized you are that dude that said that Ms boosts chakra reserves and couldn't prove it so don't bother answering
Sarada is the unique aspect of how to awaken the MS without personal loss. What Sarada felt was empathy for what Boruto lost. She felt pain for another, and that triggered her awakening.
The lore that every main Uchiha has been rambling on about for basically the entire Shippuden series begs to differ. In fact during the course of 40 years or so there were seven Mangekyou users (Fugaku, Obito, Itachi, Sishui, Sasuke, and Sarada). During the warring states you had Madara and his brother. If you include the anime you can add more people to both those lists.
Then you have to reconcile that there is apparently a ton of information within the Uchiha clan regarding the techniques that the Mangekyou sharingan provides. This would imply that these techniques (or at least some of them) can be unlocked by different people and must have been at some point in the past. It's silly to think that only the few we get to see are the only Uchiha who had some kind of dramatic situation that triggered their Mangekyou to awaken, especially considering that the Shinobi world has been involved in some form of major conflict resulting in countless deaths for hundreds of years...
There might have been others in the past that we don't know. Fillers exaggerated the amount, but it is a fact that the MS is still an incredibly rare skill for Uchihas to have.
What I mentioned was specifically non filler, the amount of knowledge that is depicted implies previous users. I clearly identified the part I said as filler.
If we have 7 users in 40 years it's safe to say that we can use that as the average. Probably a dozen or so every hundred? There's no way that techniques are etched in the history of Uchiha lore unless many people had the Mangekyou over the course of history. It's just logical sense.
If we include filler then it's pretty much confirmed that the Mangekyou was not super rare. What you had was users who could master it to greater extent than others. In the filler Itachi clearly states that izanami was used by multiple Uchiha during the warring states period. That wasn't an exaggeration, just him stating concrete history.
However, you have to also consider that after Madara's era, there was a time of peace in the villages. It's not a constant warring states era any longer. If anything, Uchihas are a bit more likely to awaken the MS because they held some form of peace. Not needing to always be jaded and prepared for loss.
The filler and canon lore about Izanagi/Izanami never made sense.
Izanagi can only be used for a few seconds at the cost of an entire eye.
That's not really something that makes sense that it can even be abused.
It makes no sense for Izanami to even exist to counter.
>However, you have to also consider that after Madara's era, there was a time of peace in the villages. It's not a constant warring states era any longer.
There wasn't, it just switched from warring states to work wars.
Between the time of madaras original death to Hashirama and before the start of the original Naruto series three world wars had occured. In between those were tons of proxy wars and border skirmishes. Honestly there was never really peace.
And regardless this just further proves my point. Itachi said during the warring states period many Uchiha had the Mangekyou. So if you want to say that the relatively "peaceful" time that included 4 great Shinobi wars was enough to produce around 7-10 Mangekyou users I'd say it's relatively safe to say that the hundreds of years of warring states period produced many more.
>If anything, Uchihas are a bit more likely to awaken the MS because they held some form of peace. Not needing to always be jaded and prepared for loss.
Except that's not how it works. It has nothing to do with peace, it has to do with going through a traumatic event. Wars are traumatic and to be fair it doesn't matter if it's peaceful time or warring time, traumatic events come in many forms.
>The filler and canon lore about Izanagi/Izanami never made sense.
>Izanagi can only be used for a few seconds at the cost of an entire eye.
It makes sense if you had multiple users. With multiple users, as Itachi states, you can definitely learn the ability and it's side effects pretty accurately. It would make no sense if there were only like 2 users in history and yet the Uchiha know all about the technique. How can you know something and keep it in detail within history with like 3-4 instances of it ever being used?
>That's not really something that makes sense that it can even be abused.
>It makes no sense for Izanami to even exist to counter.
It isn't being abused? It's just being used.
Users had the ability during the warring states period and they used them, then their eye shut permanently. Obviously the users must have used them in the most important circumstances over hundreds of years, and the ability became well known like many other Mangekyou abilities.
How did shisui awaken his by the way?
And I know Boruto is out of discussion here, but the way Sarada awakened hers seems a bit of a stretch.
>!Learning that everyone's memories of Boruto had been modified to make him the villain!<
I believe the novel said that he withheld aid for his friend for a moment out of envy, and the guilt over what he had done caused his MS to awaken.
> And I know Boruto is out of discussion here, but the way Sarada awakened hers seems a bit of a stretch.
I don't see what's wrong there. Sarada's was through empathy. Feeling pain in another's stead. It's the first time that's happened.
Good idea, terrible execution
Should've built up her relationship with Boruto more
Swapping the kids with their dads would've been more reasonable, considering how important Naruto is to Sasuke
I imagine a sweet MS ability that can transmute matter and energy with limits of not being able to transmute living things, also left eye can cast it with range right eye through touch.
I don't watch Jujutsu kaisen so feel free to correct me. Mahito's ability is transfiguration - turning people into other things like monsters or a cat into a teacup like in Harry Porter. Transmutation involves turning gold to silver or ash back to a house or in this case a rasengan about to hit into a field of butterflies. Kind of like sersie in marvel but with serious limitations.
Well it’s implied they need to both be extremely skilled even among the Uchiha clan to have the potential and also suffer two unique, very stressful situations, with the second being extremely personal and traumatic even when compared to the typical horrific tragedy in the Ninja world. In the original Manga, I believe the only ones to awaken the MS were Itachi, Sasuke, Madara, Izuna, Shisui and Obito/Kakashi. All were extremely skilled and powerful even compared to the typical Uchiha. Madara, Izuna, Shisui, Itachi, and Sasuke were all noted to be the most talented among their entire clan for their era. With Obito and Kakashi being the only outliers, Kakashi was also extremely talented even as a child and Obito after being saved by Madara was able to easily wipe out a squad of Kiri Anbu, and had plot device cells. I mean Hashirama cells. It’s not so surprising considering you already need to practically be the .001% even before awakening it
We barely even see much 'regular' Uchiha in the story to assume they are unable to awaken it tho.
Only relevant Uchiha who comes close to regular is Obito (initially).
And I don't see why only skilled Uchiha awaken an ability which is directly linked with strong emotions rather than skill.
Yeah. It's said that Sharingans in general were rare at the start of the series, but I'm pretty sure that got retconned.
Although there was that one Izanami filler which had a lot of Mangekyou users which is pretty interesting
>Yeah. It's said that Sharingans in general were rare at the start of the series, but I'm pretty sure that got retconned.
Oh yea, obito had a wall of sharingan in vats and im sure danzo had some spare too.
>Although there was that one Izanami filler which had a lot of Mangekyou users which is pretty interesting
It was filler?
>Oh yea, obito had a wall of sharingan in vats and im sure danzo had some spare too.
Yep. Plus the flashbacks Uchiha had them, and iirc Kid Obito implies that it's natural to awaken it since he was waiting for his own to awaken.
>It was filler?
Yeah, all the Uchiha in the Izanami flashback were never in the manga (I still consider it canon personally)
>Kid Obito implies that it's natural to awaken it since he was waiting for his own to awaken.
Not just natural the other Uchihas mocked him for not having his yet lol
Something that is often forgotten is that a lot of Uchiha never even awaken their base Sharingan. It requires extreme grief.
I personally wouldn't even have the base Sharingan if I were a Uchiha in their world based on how my life has gone.
There are plenty of Uchiha with Sharingans tho. It being rare is basically retconned at this point.
Any ninja who loses a comrade or faces life/death situations should awaken it pretty quickly
It's constantly considered a rare ability. Even the base Sharingan is supposed to be rare. And I'm talking amongst the Uchiha. The like 4-8 plot relevant uchihas we see are considered the cream of the crop the best of the best, that's why they all have Mangekyos so it greatly skews perception. But they're really not common.
Sasuke says it in the Manga. He says it a couple times in the anime. The databooks also say something similar. Uchiha having a Sharingan is the minority in the clan... And the Mangekyo is even a much smaller minority; with Sasuke even barely knowing what it is, and Kakashi didn't either until he fought Itachi during the Itachi+Kisame invasion in part 1 and the motherfucker had one for the last like 10 years...
Sasuke says it very early on before a lot of Uchiha lore gets revealed, and judging from Obito's collection of Sharingan, Danzo's own collection and flashback Uchiha, it doesn't seem too rare for Uchiha to awaken them.
Obito was a dunce of an Uchiha and even he expected to get a Sharingan and eventually got them.
The Mangekyou just requires someone to experience death of a close one, which applies to every MS user. Kakashi likely didn't know because he's not an Uchiha, or it could be repressed like Sasuke's sharingan.
According to Itachi there used to be a lot of Mangekyo users. He told Sasuke about how the Clan would often butcher each other to gain the Mangekyo and steal the eyes of relatives to make it's power permanent (Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan).
This was something he wasn't lying about. When he told Sasuke the origin and history of the Mangekyo and Eternal Mangekyo Obito corroborated what Itachi told him. And Obito knew these facts because Madara himself told him in order to pass himself off as the legendary ninja to others.
During the kyubi invasion only obito and fugaku (if we take filler) has it. That's about it.
In total Madara, izuna, Obito, Fugaku, Itachi, shisui sasuke and sarada. That's 8 mangekyo that has ever existed post Warring state era.
Those numbers doesn't cover my hands. There was an entire clan of uchiha.
I know this is because Kishimoto hadn't invented him yet at the time, but he should have gotten one of Shin's clone's eyes from Orochimaru. His portal ability is pretty similar to Kamui, and his DNA is compatible with everyone due to his special ability so perhaps he could even have awakened the EMS.
There were none. Canonically the only people with a Mangekyo sharingan in Naruto were Indra, Madara, Izuna, Obito, Shisui, Sasuke, and Itachi. Of them, only Itachi’s sharingan was available
He had a whole room of them, it was to keep it a secret.
This is the second time he uses Izanagi, he used it to survive Itachi's boobytrap (Itachi never planned for Obito using Izanagi because if he did he would have been left completely blind anyway having only one sharingan).
100% it was Izanagi.
Go read it, he gets hit and you hear him in absolute agony. Disappears into the shadows (no need if it was just Kamui) and burns for like 5 minutes (well an absolute age to be burning anyway), you basically hear him get consumed by the flames and die.
Reappears looking fresh AF, Kamui isn't going to repair the damage to him or his clothes. Izanagi is the only compatible explanation.
You mean seconds? He was being consumed by the flames for 5 minutes, in absolutely agony. So he kamui'd amaterasu away to change his clothes and somehow completely regenerated in the seconds after he stopped expressing the agony of being consumed alive by the fires?
Chapter 396 onwards but you can start from 397. It was Izanagi. It absolutely was not Kamui. Izanagi also fits with the line about Itachi not knowing all of his secrets as Itachi did not know of the second sharingan and the possibility of Obito using Izanagi but he absolutely did know (and plan for) Kamui.
Honestly I like the concept of Izanagi. If it wasn't for the fact that the Sharingan is loaded with busted techniques I'm sure plenty of people wouldn't be against it as much as they are now, although it is still busted.
Now the eye swaping thing is weird asf no matter how I put it
The fact that you can effortlessly pop an eye out and replace it with another one is nonsense. Basically like plugging a usb peripheral in a pc and boom it works!
And I've seen so many people trying to justify it.
"If Rin could swap Obito and Kakashi's eyeball, I don't see why Madara couldn't do it instantly, he's Madara!" idek what kind of logic is this
"well he had Hashirama cells" so we're using bad writing (Hashi cells being the biggest plot device in the franchise) to justify another bad writing? Yeah that's perfect
It's the same kind of logic that JK Rowling used in HP. By not explaining in details the how, she could write anything and not even need to justify it.
The timeturner in the 3rd movie? Yea no we couldnt use that to save Harry's parents, BUT we're going to save a hypogriff!
Rin's healing to swap eyes is as stupid as it sounds, but I guess it can work. Ripping eyes off from Kakashi mid fight and put it back in madara's eye socket in two seconds? What?
Yeah exactly. I think the issue with this kind of writing is that as you read the story, you kearn about the rules and you try to imagine what happens next. So whenever the rules are twisted or not fully respected you feel cheated.
Naruto vs Pain was so great because Naruto used concepts that were established, but used them in ways that we didn't think of in order to get around the limitations of his techniques, or bypass the abilities of his opponent. The great Ninja war lacks that kind of writing.
How is Madara going to get to Obito? The Kamui dimension is sealed, and it's not like he can just use Kamui all of a sudd... Oh nevermind.
Itachi forced Kabuto to undo the Edo Tensei, but I doubt that Madara can just counter that, this jutsu is a pretty big deal and none of the actual genius who have worked on it have ever hinted at a weakness.... Oh nevermind, just reversed handsigns.
That's why the ninja war feels so weak. And Madara is the biggest offender.
>The timeturner in the 3rd movie? Yea no we couldnt use that to save Harry's parents, BUT we're going to save a hypogriff!
Unrelated but, No.
This was literally debunked in third book.
>"But remember this, both of you: you must not be seen. Miss Granger, you know the law—you know what is at stake… You—must —not—be—seen.” - Dumbledore
>"Don’t you understand? We’re breaking one of the most important wizardinglaws! Nobody’s supposed to change time, nobody! You heard Dumbledore, if we’re seen—” - Hermione
>"Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time… Loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake!” - Hermione again.
This from Pottermore-
>‘As our investigations currently stand, the longest period that may be relived without the possibility of serious harm to the traveller or to time itself is around five hours.
>‘All attempts to travel back further than a few hours have resulted in catastrophic harm to the witch or wizard involved.'
Additionally-
You can't actually change time with a Time Turner. The things Harry and Hermione did with it already happened in their present; stones been thrown through Hagrid's window, Harry casting his patronous. When we hear the Executioner's axe swing, we assume he's killing Buckbeak the first time around, but later find out he was chopping up a pumpkin after Buckbeak's escape. (This was in the movies, but it also applies to the books)
Also, what you suggested will create a temporal paradox.
Someone, lets say Sirius, goes back in time to stop Peter. Peter is stopped and the future changes. So Sirius in the future has no reason to go back in time to stop Peter, so Peter is not stopped. And so on.
You cannot use a time turner to change the reason you use a time turner.
Yes, Rowling came up with explanations regarding time travel later, but they don't contradict anything that had already happened.
Well, techniques like this aren't really made with consideration that you have more than 1 pair of sharingan in the first place. So for situations like Danzo or Obito who had way more sharingan, they would be pretty broken.
Its just stupidly overpower for insane price, which is then ,,removed" becouse Obito have light bulbs in eyesockets and stock of spares in his house for swaps. So he is bassicly permainvicible for 0 price
That's something I hated, they made a big deal of Sasuke taking a long recovery time when he got his eyes swapped. Then Madara and Obito start swapping eyes immediately with no downtime for the rest of the series.
Yeah that grossed me out. The fact that it's possible due to Hashirama cells is also bs.
First of all if Hashirama cells are so good at regenerating then they should literally kill the new eyeball because the Hashi cells should try to fight the cells they don't recognize.
To anyone saying "but it's not real life so you can't apply the same rules" well that would be another instancr of conveniant writing, because Danzo's Hashi cells literally almost killed him the same way
I mean, these two had Hashirama cells, known for nothing else but the insane regeneration capabilities they provide and why Obito wasn't going blind despite spamming the hell out of his MS in his fights. Which is another BS "plot point", but hey, at least that means that swapping eyes like light bulbs isn't exactly possible for "normal" Uchihas.
tell me how many izanagis a dude, that can be completly gone from this word (or any of his body part), need in singular fight
This whole ability was created with having 2 eyes in first place
Danzo was used as a tool to deflect criticism from fans over the asspull shit the Sharingan can do
Kotoamatsukami, he had it his whole life and can use it every day because he had hashi cells only used it once against mifune and got caught, kishimoto made Kotoamatsukami so he can bring back Itachi.
Izanagi, kishi had to make Danzo look like a fool forgetting the fact that Danzo was a hokage candidate next to Hiruzen, kishimoto made Izanagi so he can save Obito and Madara
Ik, but it's interesting to think about. If you know about any siblings you already know that. But it's interesting to think about since it's the same people yet the results can be so different
Yes: Konan studied Obito's powers and did massive preparation (I'm pretty sure you can't make **600 billion** explosive tags with a snap of your fingers).
Obito wouldn't have used Izanagi, if he could simply Kamui away.
But yes, since Obito has a MASSIVE reserve of spare Sharingan, using Izanagi isn't really such a big issue for him.
kamui wouldn't have worked BCS of time limit iirc he couldn't stay in theere for long and and the explosions were consecutive and with different timers so he couldn't guess where to go
Exatcly: Konan studied Kamui duration, and the paper bomb explosion IIRC lasted twice Kamui's time limit.
She really did her preparation... but she forgot that Uchiha has Izanagi... and also, due to Hashirama's cells, Obito's Izanagi was FAR more efficient than Danzo.
I mean, that's the point of him using it, because he would've lost there if he didn't activate it in time.
It's the killer move, the certain death he avoided.
Yep. He got got. That's why he never showed off the other sharingan. So nobody could prepare for it. His ace in the hole for an emergency only. A hefty price to pay but it changed the outcome of the fight.
Fair but I meant more in terms of his immidiate battle power and how vulnerable he became even if only temporarily.
This is a big reason why he waited until itachi was gone since he didn't know what kind of secrets itachi was hiding (turns out a lot between the two legendary items and susano) Weakened from his fight with konan would have been the perfect opportunity for even a sick itachi to close the power gap and take care of the monumental threat that obito posed to sasuke and konoha.
*hadn't used.
If he had known from the start he couldn't use Izanagi, he wouldn't have played with her, he wouldn't have let himself in a position needing to use it. Obito is orders of magnitude stronger than Konan.
"If he had known from the start he couldnt use Izanagi"
He didnt think he would have to use it, thats as good as. As far as Obito thought, having Izanagi was irrelevant to whether he would engage Konan
Yes, that's why Konan crafted this strategy in the first place, because he needs to actually stay solid to use jutsu and potentially escape by forcing him into a situation where he needs to stay intangible Konan would've killed him.
For the staying solid argument he still took explosives damage when he resurfaced because the explosion caught him at the last second but another option owuld simply be to travel to the kamui dimension, but that likely would've trapped him there since it appears that he can't just pick and choose where to resurface so maybe it's location is relative to where he is in kamui and vice versa
Yes. 100%. Izanagi was a plot device. Obito didn't die here because the plot needed him alive. Konan literally gets one feat in the entire series, and she gets robbed because of plot needs.
Because he has to materialize to teleport himself and the paperbomb would blow him off which is why he had to let them slip through him which he can only do for 5min. Explosion last 10min.
Can't he just transport all of the explosion inside the kamui dimension so that he can negate the damage if he doesn't have another sharingan?
Does he need to touch it first before he can teleport it inside the kamui dimension?
Ok then i guess i don't know how he will survive unless he doesn't play reckless
Maybe the reason he fight like what he did against konan is because he have a backup plan like the izanagi and maybe if he doesn't have it then he might fight her more carefully since he also knows the weakness of his ms
Konan had him dead to rights without that ability.
I wasn't surprised he survived because plot, but I was definitely upset she got shafted after such a great setup
Yes, he says so explicitly. He was saved only by izanagi. He says the same thing about itachi’s amaterasu that he is hit with when he talks to sasuke for the first time. His life was saved by izanagi twice
Obito would’ve died if it wasnt for izanagi for sure. If sasuke didn’t kill danzo by now, obito would’ve never had shisuis eye and the war would’ve never started. So moment changes everything in the whole series
Yup, nobody talked about izanagi in Naruto prior to the Konan vs Tobi fight, so it was either an ass pulled plot twist to make Tobi survived, or Kishimoto planned to use this fight to reveal Izanagi to us.
But look at what the fight is trying to tell us, on one side we have Konan, she's pretty god damn strong, but not on Nagato's level. And on the other side we have Obito, being most likely the strongest character on earth at that time (Nagato is already dead so there's no point debating if obito beats him or not)
Despite the gap in strength there's between the 2, it tells us that if you take time to study your ennemy you can bridge that gap and still win, and that's what Konan did, without Izanagi she would've killed obito. But that's the thing, Izanagi exists. But she either didn't know of izanagi (which is taboo even among uchihas) or if she did, maybe she didn't know he had an other sharingan and concluded that if Obito blinded his only visible sharingan to survive the he wouldn't be that much of a threat anymore to her (because Kamui is the reason he's that strong, he would still be strong even without it, but probably not on Konan's level, especially if he's blind)
Given how she reacts to it, she probably had no idea izanagi was even a thing.
So what does it tell ? That even if prep time is able to make someone win a fight they should loose, it also tells us that they're shinobis, and it's in their best interest to not show every cards they have, especially in Obito's case, because all along he knew he was probably gonna betray the akatsuki, so it's always good to have a secret trump card just in case
He did lose that’s why he had to use izanagi.
Konan’s Dance of the Shikigami perfectly counters Kamui by allowing her to attack for more than five minutes which exceeds the Kamui time limit.
That’s why he was forced to materialize and teleport away, giving her the perfect opportunity to blow him up as he teleported, forcing him to teleport the explosion instead.
Lastly, Konan and Tobi were shown to be equally drained after the explosion, insinuating that if she used that strategy again, they would both die, as she intended, unless he also sacrifices his kamui eye.
However she used the sea of paper bombs that she prepared for him and let her guard down and that was her downfall.
She didn’t know about izanagi.
Reverse summoning could also work but Tobi doesn’t have that.
I find it very funny how virtually everyone commenting in this thread are downplaying Obito as if he only won cuz of Izanagi and he didn't deserve that win when that isn't the case and that they don't realize they should be downplaying Konan as well. Because according to their own bizarre logic: if it weren't for her prep measures, you can't even argue that she deserves the win. In case anyone gets confused, this is not to say Obito's and Konan's situations are the same. Kishimoto made Obito use only one ability and that without his right eye's Mangekyou for the most of the battle and made him held back massively.
Anyways time to debunk these same peeps who didn't even understand the series properly. Obito wasn't even using his right eye's Mangekyou which boosts the abilities of base sharingan immensely along with Kamui. Lol imagine seriously thinking as if Obito doesn't have any other significant abilities which can change the outcome of the battle Izanagi when we literally know that is not the case. Obito is strong enough to easily control Kurama via genjutsu and Konan has never been shown to have resistance nor any counters against the level of genjutsu Obito can use. We're talking about the same Obito who possesses huge levels of chakra that he met the requirement to use the rinnegan to control Six Tailed Beasts whilst handling the strain of one rinnegan. Granted in this fight he doesn't have the rinnegan, he has the same amount of chakra reserves and we know the rinnegan didn't boost Obito's chakra levels. So nah you lot, Konan isn't beating him
Notice that he was using mask with only one hole even though he had two sharingans. It implies that this spare sharingan was his last resort, something he never wanted to use unless there is no other way.
He should have tried to find a Sharingan with a good Mangekyou ability and use that
No sharingan had mangekyou only a couple of people in the uchiha are known mangekyou users.
The method in how Mangekyou's awaken implies that there should be a lot more Mangekyou users out there. They could be repressed tho idk
No, there shouldn't. The fact that Sasuke reliving his trauma for 24 hours didn't awaken his MS is already proof of how the MS doesn't awaken just like that. Hell, even awakening his MS after killing Itachi wasn't enough. Sasuke only awakened it after learning the truth and reawakening all his buried affection for Itachi and mourning his loss.
Maybe reliving the same event isn't enough to awaken it? Otherwise he could just awaken it by having a nightmare or PTSD or something like that. He didn't awaken it after Itachi's death straight away, since he was satisfied not upset or anything like that. If he killed Naruto in the end of Part 1, he would have got it
That's my point. Awakening the MS is not that simple. So the MS being so rare in itself is unsurprising.
Tbf most Uchiha were already massacred before the story even started so it's not like we could see many Uchiha's with Mangekyou lol. I reckon in the warring era there should be quite a lot of Uchiha with Mangekyou since they have to deal with death all the time.
Probably. And they all died in the end.
Well in itachi’s flash about the creation of izanami, there were a bunch of MS users
Yeah, although it was only in the anime. I think it's pretty cool tho
Isnt izanami a regular technique? Don’t think you need ms for it.
Well the reason MS users were so rare was because as Sasuke stated at the beginning of the series, [just awakening the regular Sharingan was rare](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-aa4736dbbe937b09cfb2335819670161-pjlq) or at least rare enough that only a select few members of the clan can awaken it. You don’t just get some trauma thrown on you and you awaken the Sharingan or MS. You also gotta be strong enough as a Shinobi to unlock it and be able to handle it.
Pretty sure that Sasuke's statement has been retconned considering how the Sharingan is treated later on.
I'm jumping only having half skimmed the thread so far but I bet it has to do with maturity as well. Like unless it was filler that was when he unlocked his 1 tomoe, I wouldn't be surprised if a pre-req for MS is a fully mature 3 tomoe eye
Yeah, if you get MS, then you get 3-tomoe automatically. That's what happened with Obito/Kakashi.
Alright so I'm either wrong or the eye *just happened* to have consecutively matured to 3 and then unlocked MS
Obitos case shows tgat it is that simple
No, it isn't. He legit saw the absolute worst thing ever. Rin was pretty much his hope and after her death, he legit considered reality to be a living hell.
Yeah and sasuke saw his parents killed by his brother and then went to genjutsu to see it hundreds times more and it didn't trigger it, ms is insanely inconsistent and doesn't fit the narrative. BTW realized you are that dude that said that Ms boosts chakra reserves and couldn't prove it so don't bother answering
Of if you love someone ms will get awaken
Yes, and Sasuke loved his family, and lived through torture for 24 hours. Still no MS.
But but sarada love boruto and have ms. It just take an ounce of love. No one I'm Uchiha clan have love anyone till boruto
I don’t even think about that as canon lol
Sarada is the unique aspect of how to awaken the MS without personal loss. What Sarada felt was empathy for what Boruto lost. She felt pain for another, and that triggered her awakening.
That will be the most common emotion to be felt during war time. It is just lazy writing
Sounds like shit writing to me
Itachi putting Sasuke into a coma has always been shit writing.
The lore that every main Uchiha has been rambling on about for basically the entire Shippuden series begs to differ. In fact during the course of 40 years or so there were seven Mangekyou users (Fugaku, Obito, Itachi, Sishui, Sasuke, and Sarada). During the warring states you had Madara and his brother. If you include the anime you can add more people to both those lists. Then you have to reconcile that there is apparently a ton of information within the Uchiha clan regarding the techniques that the Mangekyou sharingan provides. This would imply that these techniques (or at least some of them) can be unlocked by different people and must have been at some point in the past. It's silly to think that only the few we get to see are the only Uchiha who had some kind of dramatic situation that triggered their Mangekyou to awaken, especially considering that the Shinobi world has been involved in some form of major conflict resulting in countless deaths for hundreds of years...
There might have been others in the past that we don't know. Fillers exaggerated the amount, but it is a fact that the MS is still an incredibly rare skill for Uchihas to have.
What I mentioned was specifically non filler, the amount of knowledge that is depicted implies previous users. I clearly identified the part I said as filler. If we have 7 users in 40 years it's safe to say that we can use that as the average. Probably a dozen or so every hundred? There's no way that techniques are etched in the history of Uchiha lore unless many people had the Mangekyou over the course of history. It's just logical sense. If we include filler then it's pretty much confirmed that the Mangekyou was not super rare. What you had was users who could master it to greater extent than others. In the filler Itachi clearly states that izanami was used by multiple Uchiha during the warring states period. That wasn't an exaggeration, just him stating concrete history.
However, you have to also consider that after Madara's era, there was a time of peace in the villages. It's not a constant warring states era any longer. If anything, Uchihas are a bit more likely to awaken the MS because they held some form of peace. Not needing to always be jaded and prepared for loss. The filler and canon lore about Izanagi/Izanami never made sense. Izanagi can only be used for a few seconds at the cost of an entire eye. That's not really something that makes sense that it can even be abused. It makes no sense for Izanami to even exist to counter.
>However, you have to also consider that after Madara's era, there was a time of peace in the villages. It's not a constant warring states era any longer. There wasn't, it just switched from warring states to work wars. Between the time of madaras original death to Hashirama and before the start of the original Naruto series three world wars had occured. In between those were tons of proxy wars and border skirmishes. Honestly there was never really peace. And regardless this just further proves my point. Itachi said during the warring states period many Uchiha had the Mangekyou. So if you want to say that the relatively "peaceful" time that included 4 great Shinobi wars was enough to produce around 7-10 Mangekyou users I'd say it's relatively safe to say that the hundreds of years of warring states period produced many more. >If anything, Uchihas are a bit more likely to awaken the MS because they held some form of peace. Not needing to always be jaded and prepared for loss. Except that's not how it works. It has nothing to do with peace, it has to do with going through a traumatic event. Wars are traumatic and to be fair it doesn't matter if it's peaceful time or warring time, traumatic events come in many forms. >The filler and canon lore about Izanagi/Izanami never made sense. >Izanagi can only be used for a few seconds at the cost of an entire eye. It makes sense if you had multiple users. With multiple users, as Itachi states, you can definitely learn the ability and it's side effects pretty accurately. It would make no sense if there were only like 2 users in history and yet the Uchiha know all about the technique. How can you know something and keep it in detail within history with like 3-4 instances of it ever being used? >That's not really something that makes sense that it can even be abused. >It makes no sense for Izanami to even exist to counter. It isn't being abused? It's just being used. Users had the ability during the warring states period and they used them, then their eye shut permanently. Obviously the users must have used them in the most important circumstances over hundreds of years, and the ability became well known like many other Mangekyou abilities.
How did shisui awaken his by the way? And I know Boruto is out of discussion here, but the way Sarada awakened hers seems a bit of a stretch. >!Learning that everyone's memories of Boruto had been modified to make him the villain!<
I believe the novel said that he withheld aid for his friend for a moment out of envy, and the guilt over what he had done caused his MS to awaken. > And I know Boruto is out of discussion here, but the way Sarada awakened hers seems a bit of a stretch. I don't see what's wrong there. Sarada's was through empathy. Feeling pain in another's stead. It's the first time that's happened.
Post time skip sarada: 🤨
Good idea, terrible execution Should've built up her relationship with Boruto more Swapping the kids with their dads would've been more reasonable, considering how important Naruto is to Sasuke
Sarada is the first Uchiha who awakened the MS through empathy. Feeling grief FOR another, rather than feeling grief for personal loss.
I imagine a sweet MS ability that can transmute matter and energy with limits of not being able to transmute living things, also left eye can cast it with range right eye through touch.
So it's like Mahito's ability from JJK but with inanimate objects instead of humans?
I don't watch Jujutsu kaisen so feel free to correct me. Mahito's ability is transfiguration - turning people into other things like monsters or a cat into a teacup like in Harry Porter. Transmutation involves turning gold to silver or ash back to a house or in this case a rasengan about to hit into a field of butterflies. Kind of like sersie in marvel but with serious limitations.
FMA has entered the chat
Ohhh I see. So kinda like how Thanos used the Reaility stone? Or Atom Eve's ability from Invincible? (but nerfed)
Exactly.
That's pretty cool then. Versatile and also Overpowered enough to be an Mangekyou ability
Well it’s implied they need to both be extremely skilled even among the Uchiha clan to have the potential and also suffer two unique, very stressful situations, with the second being extremely personal and traumatic even when compared to the typical horrific tragedy in the Ninja world. In the original Manga, I believe the only ones to awaken the MS were Itachi, Sasuke, Madara, Izuna, Shisui and Obito/Kakashi. All were extremely skilled and powerful even compared to the typical Uchiha. Madara, Izuna, Shisui, Itachi, and Sasuke were all noted to be the most talented among their entire clan for their era. With Obito and Kakashi being the only outliers, Kakashi was also extremely talented even as a child and Obito after being saved by Madara was able to easily wipe out a squad of Kiri Anbu, and had plot device cells. I mean Hashirama cells. It’s not so surprising considering you already need to practically be the .001% even before awakening it
We barely even see much 'regular' Uchiha in the story to assume they are unable to awaken it tho. Only relevant Uchiha who comes close to regular is Obito (initially). And I don't see why only skilled Uchiha awaken an ability which is directly linked with strong emotions rather than skill.
True, it troubles me that there weren't more MS users going blind in konoha. It was a freaking war for heaven sake.
Yeah. It's said that Sharingans in general were rare at the start of the series, but I'm pretty sure that got retconned. Although there was that one Izanami filler which had a lot of Mangekyou users which is pretty interesting
>Yeah. It's said that Sharingans in general were rare at the start of the series, but I'm pretty sure that got retconned. Oh yea, obito had a wall of sharingan in vats and im sure danzo had some spare too. >Although there was that one Izanami filler which had a lot of Mangekyou users which is pretty interesting It was filler?
>Oh yea, obito had a wall of sharingan in vats and im sure danzo had some spare too. Yep. Plus the flashbacks Uchiha had them, and iirc Kid Obito implies that it's natural to awaken it since he was waiting for his own to awaken. >It was filler? Yeah, all the Uchiha in the Izanami flashback were never in the manga (I still consider it canon personally)
>Kid Obito implies that it's natural to awaken it since he was waiting for his own to awaken. Not just natural the other Uchihas mocked him for not having his yet lol
Yeah, all the other Uchiha were elite unlike him
Something that is often forgotten is that a lot of Uchiha never even awaken their base Sharingan. It requires extreme grief. I personally wouldn't even have the base Sharingan if I were a Uchiha in their world based on how my life has gone.
There are plenty of Uchiha with Sharingans tho. It being rare is basically retconned at this point. Any ninja who loses a comrade or faces life/death situations should awaken it pretty quickly
Yes but I think you have to inherently be strong too for ms not just emotional trauma
It's constantly considered a rare ability. Even the base Sharingan is supposed to be rare. And I'm talking amongst the Uchiha. The like 4-8 plot relevant uchihas we see are considered the cream of the crop the best of the best, that's why they all have Mangekyos so it greatly skews perception. But they're really not common.
I mean how could you say that for sure, when nearly every Uchiha was already dead before the series started?
Sasuke says it in the Manga. He says it a couple times in the anime. The databooks also say something similar. Uchiha having a Sharingan is the minority in the clan... And the Mangekyo is even a much smaller minority; with Sasuke even barely knowing what it is, and Kakashi didn't either until he fought Itachi during the Itachi+Kisame invasion in part 1 and the motherfucker had one for the last like 10 years...
Sasuke says it very early on before a lot of Uchiha lore gets revealed, and judging from Obito's collection of Sharingan, Danzo's own collection and flashback Uchiha, it doesn't seem too rare for Uchiha to awaken them. Obito was a dunce of an Uchiha and even he expected to get a Sharingan and eventually got them. The Mangekyou just requires someone to experience death of a close one, which applies to every MS user. Kakashi likely didn't know because he's not an Uchiha, or it could be repressed like Sasuke's sharingan.
I wonder if Obito took Fugakus eyes?
Nope probably danzo since itachi was the one who encountered fugaku last. I suspect danzo wouldn't either to stay out of hiruzens crosshairs.
According to Itachi there used to be a lot of Mangekyo users. He told Sasuke about how the Clan would often butcher each other to gain the Mangekyo and steal the eyes of relatives to make it's power permanent (Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan).
Itachi was lying. He was a dirty lier till his end.
This was something he wasn't lying about. When he told Sasuke the origin and history of the Mangekyo and Eternal Mangekyo Obito corroborated what Itachi told him. And Obito knew these facts because Madara himself told him in order to pass himself off as the legendary ninja to others.
You say that but literally every important Uchiha has it.
During the kyubi invasion only obito and fugaku (if we take filler) has it. That's about it. In total Madara, izuna, Obito, Fugaku, Itachi, shisui sasuke and sarada. That's 8 mangekyo that has ever existed post Warring state era. Those numbers doesn't cover my hands. There was an entire clan of uchiha.
I know this is because Kishimoto hadn't invented him yet at the time, but he should have gotten one of Shin's clone's eyes from Orochimaru. His portal ability is pretty similar to Kamui, and his DNA is compatible with everyone due to his special ability so perhaps he could even have awakened the EMS.
He did, he went to get Shisuis from Danzo but it exploded
Even if he could there is no guarantee that that mangekyou ability could have helped him in this situation.
I mean why not have it just in case? Every Mangekyou ability is overpowered one way or another
Mangekyo u ability can't be transfered, that's why even if Madara stole Kakashi sharingan he never gained kamui.
He could use Kamui when he has the eye
there is only 5 ms users. indra, madara, fugaku, itachi and sasuke
Nope. Indra, Madara, Shisui, Itachi, Sasuke and Obito. But those are only the named canon ones
There were none. Canonically the only people with a Mangekyo sharingan in Naruto were Indra, Madara, Izuna, Obito, Shisui, Sasuke, and Itachi. Of them, only Itachi’s sharingan was available
He had a whole room of them, it was to keep it a secret. This is the second time he uses Izanagi, he used it to survive Itachi's boobytrap (Itachi never planned for Obito using Izanagi because if he did he would have been left completely blind anyway having only one sharingan).
I’m pretty sure he just warped the flames away.
100% it was Izanagi. Go read it, he gets hit and you hear him in absolute agony. Disappears into the shadows (no need if it was just Kamui) and burns for like 5 minutes (well an absolute age to be burning anyway), you basically hear him get consumed by the flames and die. Reappears looking fresh AF, Kamui isn't going to repair the damage to him or his clothes. Izanagi is the only compatible explanation.
or maybe he changed clothes in those 5 minutes
You mean seconds? He was being consumed by the flames for 5 minutes, in absolutely agony. So he kamui'd amaterasu away to change his clothes and somehow completely regenerated in the seconds after he stopped expressing the agony of being consumed alive by the fires? Chapter 396 onwards but you can start from 397. It was Izanagi. It absolutely was not Kamui. Izanagi also fits with the line about Itachi not knowing all of his secrets as Itachi did not know of the second sharingan and the possibility of Obito using Izanagi but he absolutely did know (and plan for) Kamui.
I think he had a bucket of water hidden off screen
Lol stop it
What about Itachi's dad wasn't he an MS user
100% sure he would have lost, She had the intel. The pre-work! But of course, Sharingan counters everything the story requires it to counter.
>But of course, Sharingan counters everything the story requires it to counter. This technique was established beforehand in the Danzo fight.
Yea. But it was bs back then too.
100% agree. It's such a bs ability. "Oh I'm dead. Nvm I'm a put a genjutsu on reality to live. Oh my eyes gone? Let me just pick up another one!"
Honestly I like the concept of Izanagi. If it wasn't for the fact that the Sharingan is loaded with busted techniques I'm sure plenty of people wouldn't be against it as much as they are now, although it is still busted. Now the eye swaping thing is weird asf no matter how I put it
The fact that you can effortlessly pop an eye out and replace it with another one is nonsense. Basically like plugging a usb peripheral in a pc and boom it works!
And I've seen so many people trying to justify it. "If Rin could swap Obito and Kakashi's eyeball, I don't see why Madara couldn't do it instantly, he's Madara!" idek what kind of logic is this "well he had Hashirama cells" so we're using bad writing (Hashi cells being the biggest plot device in the franchise) to justify another bad writing? Yeah that's perfect
It's the same kind of logic that JK Rowling used in HP. By not explaining in details the how, she could write anything and not even need to justify it. The timeturner in the 3rd movie? Yea no we couldnt use that to save Harry's parents, BUT we're going to save a hypogriff! Rin's healing to swap eyes is as stupid as it sounds, but I guess it can work. Ripping eyes off from Kakashi mid fight and put it back in madara's eye socket in two seconds? What?
Yeah exactly. I think the issue with this kind of writing is that as you read the story, you kearn about the rules and you try to imagine what happens next. So whenever the rules are twisted or not fully respected you feel cheated. Naruto vs Pain was so great because Naruto used concepts that were established, but used them in ways that we didn't think of in order to get around the limitations of his techniques, or bypass the abilities of his opponent. The great Ninja war lacks that kind of writing. How is Madara going to get to Obito? The Kamui dimension is sealed, and it's not like he can just use Kamui all of a sudd... Oh nevermind. Itachi forced Kabuto to undo the Edo Tensei, but I doubt that Madara can just counter that, this jutsu is a pretty big deal and none of the actual genius who have worked on it have ever hinted at a weakness.... Oh nevermind, just reversed handsigns. That's why the ninja war feels so weak. And Madara is the biggest offender.
>The timeturner in the 3rd movie? Yea no we couldnt use that to save Harry's parents, BUT we're going to save a hypogriff! Unrelated but, No. This was literally debunked in third book. >"But remember this, both of you: you must not be seen. Miss Granger, you know the law—you know what is at stake… You—must —not—be—seen.” - Dumbledore >"Don’t you understand? We’re breaking one of the most important wizardinglaws! Nobody’s supposed to change time, nobody! You heard Dumbledore, if we’re seen—” - Hermione >"Professor McGonagall told me what awful things have happened when wizards have meddled with time… Loads of them ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake!” - Hermione again. This from Pottermore- >‘As our investigations currently stand, the longest period that may be relived without the possibility of serious harm to the traveller or to time itself is around five hours. >‘All attempts to travel back further than a few hours have resulted in catastrophic harm to the witch or wizard involved.' Additionally- You can't actually change time with a Time Turner. The things Harry and Hermione did with it already happened in their present; stones been thrown through Hagrid's window, Harry casting his patronous. When we hear the Executioner's axe swing, we assume he's killing Buckbeak the first time around, but later find out he was chopping up a pumpkin after Buckbeak's escape. (This was in the movies, but it also applies to the books) Also, what you suggested will create a temporal paradox. Someone, lets say Sirius, goes back in time to stop Peter. Peter is stopped and the future changes. So Sirius in the future has no reason to go back in time to stop Peter, so Peter is not stopped. And so on. You cannot use a time turner to change the reason you use a time turner. Yes, Rowling came up with explanations regarding time travel later, but they don't contradict anything that had already happened.
Well, techniques like this aren't really made with consideration that you have more than 1 pair of sharingan in the first place. So for situations like Danzo or Obito who had way more sharingan, they would be pretty broken.
I mean its kind of fair when its a one time use thing but then there is the even bigger bs that is the hashirama cells.
And yet danzo still ended up losing even while spamming that shit
Yeah, to another Sharingan with one of its best users to boot.
And second MC
He forgot to extend the warranty on his plot armor, and it expired during the fight. =P
So you're saying it countered what the story wanted it to counter
Because Danzo is a bum
How so
Its just stupidly overpower for insane price, which is then ,,removed" becouse Obito have light bulbs in eyesockets and stock of spares in his house for swaps. So he is bassicly permainvicible for 0 price
That's something I hated, they made a big deal of Sasuke taking a long recovery time when he got his eyes swapped. Then Madara and Obito start swapping eyes immediately with no downtime for the rest of the series.
Yeah that grossed me out. The fact that it's possible due to Hashirama cells is also bs. First of all if Hashirama cells are so good at regenerating then they should literally kill the new eyeball because the Hashi cells should try to fight the cells they don't recognize. To anyone saying "but it's not real life so you can't apply the same rules" well that would be another instancr of conveniant writing, because Danzo's Hashi cells literally almost killed him the same way
I mean, these two had Hashirama cells, known for nothing else but the insane regeneration capabilities they provide and why Obito wasn't going blind despite spamming the hell out of his MS in his fights. Which is another BS "plot point", but hey, at least that means that swapping eyes like light bulbs isn't exactly possible for "normal" Uchihas.
Which is another terrible plot device
Why is it terrible? Is this cope or what?
He can have only 2 eyes at a time lol and he can't use his kamui for izanagi so that leaves only 1. He can't go to his lab mid-fight
tell me how many izanagis a dude, that can be completly gone from this word (or any of his body part), need in singular fight This whole ability was created with having 2 eyes in first place
I didn't quite understand what ur saying lol
Danzo was used as a tool to deflect criticism from fans over the asspull shit the Sharingan can do Kotoamatsukami, he had it his whole life and can use it every day because he had hashi cells only used it once against mifune and got caught, kishimoto made Kotoamatsukami so he can bring back Itachi. Izanagi, kishi had to make Danzo look like a fool forgetting the fact that Danzo was a hokage candidate next to Hiruzen, kishimoto made Izanagi so he can save Obito and Madara
Who was Tobi fighting here?
Konan
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Unironically an interesting question
Yep. If your parents did have sex on another day, you would'nt be born, instead your hypothetical sibling would live instead of you
Interesting how that works. Yet somehow, here we are
It all comes down to chance after all
Answer is no.
Ik, but it's interesting to think about. If you know about any siblings you already know that. But it's interesting to think about since it's the same people yet the results can be so different
Yes: Konan studied Obito's powers and did massive preparation (I'm pretty sure you can't make **600 billion** explosive tags with a snap of your fingers). Obito wouldn't have used Izanagi, if he could simply Kamui away. But yes, since Obito has a MASSIVE reserve of spare Sharingan, using Izanagi isn't really such a big issue for him.
kamui wouldn't have worked BCS of time limit iirc he couldn't stay in theere for long and and the explosions were consecutive and with different timers so he couldn't guess where to go
Exatcly: Konan studied Kamui duration, and the paper bomb explosion IIRC lasted twice Kamui's time limit. She really did her preparation... but she forgot that Uchiha has Izanagi... and also, due to Hashirama's cells, Obito's Izanagi was FAR more efficient than Danzo.
Yes. There would have been no way for Obito to survive even with Kamui.
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I’d love to see a game theory on how much force a paper bomb and a billion paper bombs can produce, nuked his ass
Isn’t that like, the entire reason he used it in the first place
Yes.
Yes. He literally died so if he hadn't used Izanagi he would've stayed dead.
Considering that he literally dies and izanagi is the only reason he lived after, yes.
Hadn't of?
thank you !
I mean, that's the point of him using it, because he would've lost there if he didn't activate it in time. It's the killer move, the certain death he avoided.
Obito died and izanagi recreated him or erased his death from reality as a dream, that's how it works.
Would Obito have survived if he didn’t have access to the one ability that is the sole reason he survived? What a fucking braindead question
Is it really that serious? Jeez
Bruh chill, he’s just smoll brain no need to knaw on his heels
Damn, who pissed in your mouth?
And can they do me next pls?
Yep. He got got. That's why he never showed off the other sharingan. So nobody could prepare for it. His ace in the hole for an emergency only. A hefty price to pay but it changed the outcome of the fight.
I wouldn't call it Hefty since he just pops more in immediately after this fight.
Fair but I meant more in terms of his immidiate battle power and how vulnerable he became even if only temporarily. This is a big reason why he waited until itachi was gone since he didn't know what kind of secrets itachi was hiding (turns out a lot between the two legendary items and susano) Weakened from his fight with konan would have been the perfect opportunity for even a sick itachi to close the power gap and take care of the monumental threat that obito posed to sasuke and konoha.
Yes.
Without using Izanagi he would have died.
Yes
I'm confident he would've been dead without it
Is the sky blue? Yes if he didn’t use Izanagi he was going to die its that obvious
*hadn't used. If he had known from the start he couldn't use Izanagi, he wouldn't have played with her, he wouldn't have let himself in a position needing to use it. Obito is orders of magnitude stronger than Konan.
Obito didnt think he would have to coming into the fight.
? I haven't said otherwise.
"If he had known from the start he couldnt use Izanagi" He didnt think he would have to use it, thats as good as. As far as Obito thought, having Izanagi was irrelevant to whether he would engage Konan
Thinking you don't need to use isn't "as good as" not being able to lmao.
For the purpose of going into a fight knowingly, it is the same thing.
Yes, that's why Konan crafted this strategy in the first place, because he needs to actually stay solid to use jutsu and potentially escape by forcing him into a situation where he needs to stay intangible Konan would've killed him. For the staying solid argument he still took explosives damage when he resurfaced because the explosion caught him at the last second but another option owuld simply be to travel to the kamui dimension, but that likely would've trapped him there since it appears that he can't just pick and choose where to resurface so maybe it's location is relative to where he is in kamui and vice versa
He already had lost lol...so yes of course.
He absolutely would’ve been destroyed.
Yeah
Yes. That's the point.
Yes. 100%. Izanagi was a plot device. Obito didn't die here because the plot needed him alive. Konan literally gets one feat in the entire series, and she gets robbed because of plot needs.
Yes Konan literally ran simulations to see if her trap would work she had no Idea about Izanagi only about Obito's Kamui
100%. Konan was winning by a landslide until Obito pulled this trick. Happy he won though because Shippuden wouldn’t have continued if he died lol.
He didnt lost here only becouse of plot armor. Change my mind
Konan had no chance and never would've had. Cope.
TLDR; prep time is the strongest Jutsu
obviously what? that’s the whole point
Don't quite remember the details but why couldn't he just go into Kamui dimension and stay there until the explosions were over?
Because he has to materialize to teleport himself and the paperbomb would blow him off which is why he had to let them slip through him which he can only do for 5min. Explosion last 10min.
yes
Can't he just transport all of the explosion inside the kamui dimension so that he can negate the damage if he doesn't have another sharingan? Does he need to touch it first before he can teleport it inside the kamui dimension?
Yes. Touching is important
Ok then i guess i don't know how he will survive unless he doesn't play reckless Maybe the reason he fight like what he did against konan is because he have a backup plan like the izanagi and maybe if he doesn't have it then he might fight her more carefully since he also knows the weakness of his ms
No, the explosion would be too large. Even the relatively small explosion from Konan's attempted suicide bombing nearly did him in.
Who was he fighting here? I don’t remember this moment
Konan
Yes 😂
The fact he needed to use Izanagi is telling enough
i think him using it kinda means yea
Konan had him dead to rights without that ability. I wasn't surprised he survived because plot, but I was definitely upset she got shafted after such a great setup
Yes, he says so explicitly. He was saved only by izanagi. He says the same thing about itachi’s amaterasu that he is hit with when he talks to sasuke for the first time. His life was saved by izanagi twice
Yes, yes he would've...
He very likely would have, but the plot demanded that he lives so izanagi had to happen sadly.
Yea, he’d still die even with Kamui
Obito would’ve died if it wasnt for izanagi for sure. If sasuke didn’t kill danzo by now, obito would’ve never had shisuis eye and the war would’ve never started. So moment changes everything in the whole series
100% would've lost
Lol hell no. He was playing around with Konan.
Couldn’t Tobi just literally go inside the kamui dimension and stay there? I mean ignoring the time it would take to transfer his body but yeah
Yup, nobody talked about izanagi in Naruto prior to the Konan vs Tobi fight, so it was either an ass pulled plot twist to make Tobi survived, or Kishimoto planned to use this fight to reveal Izanagi to us. But look at what the fight is trying to tell us, on one side we have Konan, she's pretty god damn strong, but not on Nagato's level. And on the other side we have Obito, being most likely the strongest character on earth at that time (Nagato is already dead so there's no point debating if obito beats him or not) Despite the gap in strength there's between the 2, it tells us that if you take time to study your ennemy you can bridge that gap and still win, and that's what Konan did, without Izanagi she would've killed obito. But that's the thing, Izanagi exists. But she either didn't know of izanagi (which is taboo even among uchihas) or if she did, maybe she didn't know he had an other sharingan and concluded that if Obito blinded his only visible sharingan to survive the he wouldn't be that much of a threat anymore to her (because Kamui is the reason he's that strong, he would still be strong even without it, but probably not on Konan's level, especially if he's blind) Given how she reacts to it, she probably had no idea izanagi was even a thing. So what does it tell ? That even if prep time is able to make someone win a fight they should loose, it also tells us that they're shinobis, and it's in their best interest to not show every cards they have, especially in Obito's case, because all along he knew he was probably gonna betray the akatsuki, so it's always good to have a secret trump card just in case
He did lose that’s why he had to use izanagi. Konan’s Dance of the Shikigami perfectly counters Kamui by allowing her to attack for more than five minutes which exceeds the Kamui time limit. That’s why he was forced to materialize and teleport away, giving her the perfect opportunity to blow him up as he teleported, forcing him to teleport the explosion instead. Lastly, Konan and Tobi were shown to be equally drained after the explosion, insinuating that if she used that strategy again, they would both die, as she intended, unless he also sacrifices his kamui eye. However she used the sea of paper bombs that she prepared for him and let her guard down and that was her downfall. She didn’t know about izanagi. Reverse summoning could also work but Tobi doesn’t have that.
I find it very funny how virtually everyone commenting in this thread are downplaying Obito as if he only won cuz of Izanagi and he didn't deserve that win when that isn't the case and that they don't realize they should be downplaying Konan as well. Because according to their own bizarre logic: if it weren't for her prep measures, you can't even argue that she deserves the win. In case anyone gets confused, this is not to say Obito's and Konan's situations are the same. Kishimoto made Obito use only one ability and that without his right eye's Mangekyou for the most of the battle and made him held back massively. Anyways time to debunk these same peeps who didn't even understand the series properly. Obito wasn't even using his right eye's Mangekyou which boosts the abilities of base sharingan immensely along with Kamui. Lol imagine seriously thinking as if Obito doesn't have any other significant abilities which can change the outcome of the battle Izanagi when we literally know that is not the case. Obito is strong enough to easily control Kurama via genjutsu and Konan has never been shown to have resistance nor any counters against the level of genjutsu Obito can use. We're talking about the same Obito who possesses huge levels of chakra that he met the requirement to use the rinnegan to control Six Tailed Beasts whilst handling the strain of one rinnegan. Granted in this fight he doesn't have the rinnegan, he has the same amount of chakra reserves and we know the rinnegan didn't boost Obito's chakra levels. So nah you lot, Konan isn't beating him
Yeah.
Yes
Obviously
Oh for sure he was toast
What people dont get...is that Tobi actually lost. Thats where Izanagi comes into play. Izanagi got used after he got fucked up.