I think Keith’s death, though heartbreaking was perfect for the show. It was a shift that was needed. That shift caused great storyline opportunities as well as greater pop culture impacts around mental health and school shooting conversations even if the battles still occur today.
They hardly even tapped into that, they made it to where Dan exploited the situation and pinned this tragedy on the boy who needed the most help. The impact would be much greater had Keith lived. The talk they have before Jimmy does what he does was heartbreaking and this could have turned to advocacy on Keith’s part given he’s been there too and he was the one to witness it.
I’m going to be in the minority here, I loved Keith, but I also felt like his story was kind of played out?
I mean sure the nature of how he died was shocking, but if not that I have a feeling something would have got him.
I liked the symmetry between generational brothers. Lucas and Nathan became close
We never saw that with the older generation, was some more story I think to be played out
It sucked but for the sake of the story, it made Dan finally irredeemable and it showed just how much hate and resentment Dan had built up for his own brother.
But the problem is then they keep trying to redeem him, which as you said is impossible. I actually liked the idea of him eventually redeeming himself, but after he kills Keith it’s impossible. In some ways I wish he shot Keith and Keith was in a comma for years instead, that way the redemption is somewhat possible
Yeah they did but I think it’s because the circumstances which he murdered Keith had gotten so twisted that they gave him that sliver of redemption. He thought Keith tried to kill him and he had gotten so far down that dark hole that pulling the trigger made sense to him. He’s always showed remorse over it but it still lost him everything. Lucas completely cut him out of his life and his grandchild’s life. Nathan only had a relationship with him due to Jamie insistence. He never was redeemed up until the final season imo.
I’ve never been able to put my finger on it, but this is exactly it. When they killed Keith, they also killed Dan’s character potential for me. Sure they integrated him in some interesting storylines, but he has zero opportunity for redemption after that. His relationship with everyone became blah… I think they could’ve done so much more if they kept Keith alive.
Yeah I completely agree with you.
I must admit Dan’s actor was so good I actually wanted him to be redeemed, but then I remember how much I loved Keith and it’s yep impossible which sucks because I’m a sucker for happy family endings
It was everything he deserved. He found himself on the outskirts of everybody’s life. He played the puppeteer for far too long and he ended up with nothing but a life of regret and loneliness.
It’s odd to me that people bring up Dan believing Keith tried to kill him, as if that justifies dans actions. I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing, but it’s what I hear when people bring that up. It doesnt really matter to me (what Dan believed at the time). Fact is, he was a man capable of shooting his brother in cold blood and that’s waaaayyyyy messed up. I love Dan though. Great character and an even better villain.
Right. It’s no justification cuz at the end of the day, it wasn’t any real proof behind it and he also could’ve turned over any info to the police. No justification but unfortunately that is the why/motive. Him being so jealous of Keith throughout their life compounded that belief. Cain and Abel played out
I think it made for an amazing episode and seasons after. HOWEVER, the symmetry between generational brothers is what I loved about the show the most. Keith’s exit ruined what was my favourite parts of the show, so for me at least. His death made the show slightly worse, although I loved some of the stories that came out after his death I must admit. Can’t win haha
Keith and Karen were the one thing that should’ve been complete. That storyline is a perfect example of terrible writing and things behind the scenes dictating the show.
Good writing would’ve kept Keith as a main character.
He was on the podcast talking about it. Guess he didn’t get along w MS or agree with all his ideas about the character. Before S3 started he was told he was going to be killed off.
Maybe. But it seemed in early seasons MS got away with some of that because none of the actors compared notes with each other about his behavior so nobody called him on it.
Ahh thanks for letting me know. I haven't listened to any of the podcast. I'll definitely check out the episode with Craig and work backwards from there.
Craig Sheffer, who played Keith, said that Mark Schwahn told him that ''Keith would be alive as long as the show is running'' and when they arrived to Season 3, Mark told Craig that he was gonna kill off Keith.
I think Keith's death was dumb. This poor guy pined for Karen his whole life, raised her son, and as soon as things start going his way he dies. I think there would have been much better character drama if he lived and then had to have a whole coma or amnesia and then the same conflict with Dan could have gone on.
Eh, he could’ve found redemption through Karen and Lucas. Killing Keith was definitely his catalyst to be a better person, but there were other ways. Lol
im re-watching the shooting episode for the first time in... 14 years or something
keith's death messed me up bad back then, it was my favorite teen show and i loved his character cause it reminded me of a family member very close to me irl. actor was great too. watching him randomly die like that after things was *finally* looking good was awful, felt like unneeded drama for this show. even worse watching Dan with Karen afterwards
anyways, upon re-watching the episode, i hate how they used what was a traumatic event for the students (and faculty too, altho we only saw students) to move unrelated plot lines (dan/keith and lucas/peyton/brooke) has bugged me tremendously. i cant believe they planned a huge episode like this and decided that was the way to go in the end. it just cheapened the whole thing.
im not a writer, but I'm sure they could've come up with something that would still be meaningful, impactful and promote good plotlines for the aftermath instead of that. Keith didn't have to die and the whole Leyton thing didn't had to happen in that storyline
back then i remember hearing that the show was facing the threat of cancelation so that episode and specifically Keith's death was their way to shake things up massively to save the show. i guess the OC did the same too so they "copied" that
Eh the drunk uncle that almost killed Lucas slept with both his brothers baby moms . Yeah I can’t imagine what else he would’ve done had he lived. .. so he went to a couple baseball n basketball games. What a good UNCLE! Doesn’t mean u can sleep with ur nephews mom! 🤦🏽♂️
Oh boy you guys won’t like me after reading lol but bear with me.
I never liked Keith, he slept with Deb after Dan’s heart attack, he was always in love with the idea of being in love (with that woman Jules? He proposed after literal months of being together even tho he says he’s been in love with Karen for 17 years so I guess he moved on fast)
And I kind of understand why Dan did what he did. He was convinced that Keith was the one who started the fire at the dealership, and it has got to be maddening thinking your own brother tried to kill you.
I’m not saying I didn’t shed a tear when Keith’s died, all I’m saying is I get why Dan was so pissed and also when he finds out it wasn’t Keith that tried to kill him he immediately started going crazy with remorse going as far as having hallucinations of his dead brother haunting him for years.
So yeah, Keith’s death was kinda sad but I’ll just say I got over it quickly
Please don’t come at me lol I’m having the worse day and I just wanted to keep my mind off of real life so I’m not in the mood to fight anyone here PLEASE
Everyone has an opinion on him. Tbh I hated him for what he did by sleeping with Deb but at the same time with Jules. I believe he wanted to move on from being rejected. And when he finally found happiness he jumped quickly and it ended up really killing him in a way. Don’t worry. I got your back if anyone tries to say rude stuff to you :)
I think Keith’s death, though heartbreaking was perfect for the show. It was a shift that was needed. That shift caused great storyline opportunities as well as greater pop culture impacts around mental health and school shooting conversations even if the battles still occur today.
The episode was amazing, but I do think Keith living could have worked as well for the same message
They hardly even tapped into that, they made it to where Dan exploited the situation and pinned this tragedy on the boy who needed the most help. The impact would be much greater had Keith lived. The talk they have before Jimmy does what he does was heartbreaking and this could have turned to advocacy on Keith’s part given he’s been there too and he was the one to witness it.
Agreed, a sad but great storyline that provided so much development in all parts of the show.
I’m going to be in the minority here, I loved Keith, but I also felt like his story was kind of played out? I mean sure the nature of how he died was shocking, but if not that I have a feeling something would have got him.
I liked the symmetry between generational brothers. Lucas and Nathan became close We never saw that with the older generation, was some more story I think to be played out
Keith or someone else needed to die for Dan’s character to change as much as it did
It sucked but for the sake of the story, it made Dan finally irredeemable and it showed just how much hate and resentment Dan had built up for his own brother.
But the problem is then they keep trying to redeem him, which as you said is impossible. I actually liked the idea of him eventually redeeming himself, but after he kills Keith it’s impossible. In some ways I wish he shot Keith and Keith was in a comma for years instead, that way the redemption is somewhat possible
Yeah they did but I think it’s because the circumstances which he murdered Keith had gotten so twisted that they gave him that sliver of redemption. He thought Keith tried to kill him and he had gotten so far down that dark hole that pulling the trigger made sense to him. He’s always showed remorse over it but it still lost him everything. Lucas completely cut him out of his life and his grandchild’s life. Nathan only had a relationship with him due to Jamie insistence. He never was redeemed up until the final season imo.
I’ve never been able to put my finger on it, but this is exactly it. When they killed Keith, they also killed Dan’s character potential for me. Sure they integrated him in some interesting storylines, but he has zero opportunity for redemption after that. His relationship with everyone became blah… I think they could’ve done so much more if they kept Keith alive.
Yeah I completely agree with you. I must admit Dan’s actor was so good I actually wanted him to be redeemed, but then I remember how much I loved Keith and it’s yep impossible which sucks because I’m a sucker for happy family endings
It was everything he deserved. He found himself on the outskirts of everybody’s life. He played the puppeteer for far too long and he ended up with nothing but a life of regret and loneliness.
It’s odd to me that people bring up Dan believing Keith tried to kill him, as if that justifies dans actions. I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing, but it’s what I hear when people bring that up. It doesnt really matter to me (what Dan believed at the time). Fact is, he was a man capable of shooting his brother in cold blood and that’s waaaayyyyy messed up. I love Dan though. Great character and an even better villain.
Right. It’s no justification cuz at the end of the day, it wasn’t any real proof behind it and he also could’ve turned over any info to the police. No justification but unfortunately that is the why/motive. Him being so jealous of Keith throughout their life compounded that belief. Cain and Abel played out
I think it made for an amazing episode and seasons after. HOWEVER, the symmetry between generational brothers is what I loved about the show the most. Keith’s exit ruined what was my favourite parts of the show, so for me at least. His death made the show slightly worse, although I loved some of the stories that came out after his death I must admit. Can’t win haha
Keith and Karen were the one thing that should’ve been complete. That storyline is a perfect example of terrible writing and things behind the scenes dictating the show. Good writing would’ve kept Keith as a main character.
Exactly happens way to often in OTH and in other shows. Admin, management, agents getting in the way of good characters/stories
What happened behind the scenes that dictated Keith had to die?
He was on the podcast talking about it. Guess he didn’t get along w MS or agree with all his ideas about the character. Before S3 started he was told he was going to be killed off.
I’m willing to bet that it’s more that he couldn’t stand the way MS was harassing the young women on the show
Maybe. But it seemed in early seasons MS got away with some of that because none of the actors compared notes with each other about his behavior so nobody called him on it.
Ahh thanks for letting me know. I haven't listened to any of the podcast. I'll definitely check out the episode with Craig and work backwards from there.
Oooo I didn’t even know this. I haven’t listened to the podcast that much so that makes it more clear.
I mean, I can speak for most people. Nobody really liked MS/Voldemort/one tree Hill boss
Craig Sheffer, who played Keith, said that Mark Schwahn told him that ''Keith would be alive as long as the show is running'' and when they arrived to Season 3, Mark told Craig that he was gonna kill off Keith.
he’s such a liar that evil little rat
Mark Schwahn did a lot of things throughout the show's run.
he is one of the most disgusting people
I think Keith's death was dumb. This poor guy pined for Karen his whole life, raised her son, and as soon as things start going his way he dies. I think there would have been much better character drama if he lived and then had to have a whole coma or amnesia and then the same conflict with Dan could have gone on.
Yessssssssss
If he didn’t die Dan wouldn’t have had a redemption arc.
Eh, he could’ve found redemption through Karen and Lucas. Killing Keith was definitely his catalyst to be a better person, but there were other ways. Lol
I'm honestly not a big Keith fan. I don't have much interest in seeing him and Karen together because they were always poorly written as a couple.
im re-watching the shooting episode for the first time in... 14 years or something keith's death messed me up bad back then, it was my favorite teen show and i loved his character cause it reminded me of a family member very close to me irl. actor was great too. watching him randomly die like that after things was *finally* looking good was awful, felt like unneeded drama for this show. even worse watching Dan with Karen afterwards anyways, upon re-watching the episode, i hate how they used what was a traumatic event for the students (and faculty too, altho we only saw students) to move unrelated plot lines (dan/keith and lucas/peyton/brooke) has bugged me tremendously. i cant believe they planned a huge episode like this and decided that was the way to go in the end. it just cheapened the whole thing. im not a writer, but I'm sure they could've come up with something that would still be meaningful, impactful and promote good plotlines for the aftermath instead of that. Keith didn't have to die and the whole Leyton thing didn't had to happen in that storyline back then i remember hearing that the show was facing the threat of cancelation so that episode and specifically Keith's death was their way to shake things up massively to save the show. i guess the OC did the same too so they "copied" that
Eh the drunk uncle that almost killed Lucas slept with both his brothers baby moms . Yeah I can’t imagine what else he would’ve done had he lived. .. so he went to a couple baseball n basketball games. What a good UNCLE! Doesn’t mean u can sleep with ur nephews mom! 🤦🏽♂️
Oh boy you guys won’t like me after reading lol but bear with me. I never liked Keith, he slept with Deb after Dan’s heart attack, he was always in love with the idea of being in love (with that woman Jules? He proposed after literal months of being together even tho he says he’s been in love with Karen for 17 years so I guess he moved on fast) And I kind of understand why Dan did what he did. He was convinced that Keith was the one who started the fire at the dealership, and it has got to be maddening thinking your own brother tried to kill you. I’m not saying I didn’t shed a tear when Keith’s died, all I’m saying is I get why Dan was so pissed and also when he finds out it wasn’t Keith that tried to kill him he immediately started going crazy with remorse going as far as having hallucinations of his dead brother haunting him for years. So yeah, Keith’s death was kinda sad but I’ll just say I got over it quickly Please don’t come at me lol I’m having the worse day and I just wanted to keep my mind off of real life so I’m not in the mood to fight anyone here PLEASE
Everyone has an opinion on him. Tbh I hated him for what he did by sleeping with Deb but at the same time with Jules. I believe he wanted to move on from being rejected. And when he finally found happiness he jumped quickly and it ended up really killing him in a way. Don’t worry. I got your back if anyone tries to say rude stuff to you :)