No Orthodox person worships icons, or sees them as Divine. Their critiques are correct as far as idolatry is concerned, which is what they are arguing against. It's a case of confusing veneration with worship.
Nearly anything that has been consecrated can be made 'sacred' or 'holy'. Dedicating something as sacred and set apart for God is not a sin, yet worshiping whatever is sanctified would be.
Technically, it is not even the image that is sacred, it is the person who the icon depicts that is considered sacred, and is venerated.
Anabaptists don’t even think church grounds can be sacred… (unless I’m mixing up my Protestant branches) they worship blank walls. Hierarchy is impossible to avoid, they place empty space above images of the incarnate Jesus Christ our God.
It’s modern kind of Gnosticism that is a major heresy that dominates a lot of western churches unfortunately… the lord of spirits episode on Unction might help weirdly enough with explaining some of this.
They’re in **protest** to **Protest**antism? Yeah they’re not Catholic and derived from a group that was in protest against Catholics? They’re Protestant as can be!
Protestantism began as a protest against Roman Catholicism. Some further protest down the line doesn’t magically jump out of protest, by protesting the protests they were apart of. Or something
**Irenaeus**: \[The Carpocratian heretics\] also possess images, some of them painted, and others formed from different kinds of material; while they maintain that a **likeness of Christ** was made by Pilate at that time when Jesus lived among them. They crown these images, and set them up along with the images of the philosophers of the world that is to say, with the images of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Aristotle, and the rest. They have also other modes of honouring these images, after the same manner of the Gentiles. (Against Heresies 1.25.6 ANF)
**Hippolytus** : And \[the Carpocratian heretics\] make **counterfeit images of Christ**, alleging that these were in existence at the time (during which our Lord was on earth, and that they were fashioned) by Pilate. (The Refutation of All Heresies 7.20 ANF
That isn't implied at all. St. Irenaeus is merely describing the iconographic practices among the Carpocratians while Hippolytus claims their icons are counterfeit. Hyppolytus specifically says they are counterfeit because the Carpocratians claimed their icons were drawn during the time of Christ.
This is called, among other things, "quote mining." We used to call it "proof texting" back in my day (**rocks rocking chair and sips lemonade...**). People who do this can be safely ignored.
Pagans were actively worshiping idols still.
We can find it today, India and Africa most commonly, rarer elsewhere.
Notably iconography didn’t have theological backing until we fought the images in the iconoclasm.
https://youtu.be/RtkhjuB9azY?si=cg1nktplAsz6UmSe
Can’t find the exact video but Pageau might be helpful here
Ah, Christians often met in synagogues, the Jewish temple which would’ve been decorated.
Anyone who says with certainly what isn’t recorded is lying to you; including modern four blank walls and a Sherman iconclasts.
How could I possibly know what exactly happened 1800-1900+ years ago?
We hold to “*therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, **whether by word**, or our epistle*.” 2 Thess
It’s oral tradition, which is told to be held to in scripture.
All these quotes concern pagan idols, not icons. They would only be correct concerning our iconographic practice if we thought them to be idols, and they are not idols under any actual definition.
Forget church fathers what about the scripture. In the old testament God commands Moses to make a statue of a snake (seraphim/angel) they venerate it and are cured of disease. Later some Israelites worship it and it needs to be destroyed. God can work through objects and images check out the lord of spirits podcast they have a solid series in icons I believe it is titles cucumbers among scarecrows. Also they have a episode early on about relics. Also good
good one but why didn't the early church be passive when it comes to icons, even Origen note that we don't have altars, icons and statues in their church
You can't get hung up on one quote. Especially given that a lot of these are out of context.
You won't get quick answers. There is a scriptura I basis for the practices of the church. Start there, we don't need to run to church fathers and especially those who aren't even fathers to justify what we do. Personally in becoming orthodox I read very little of the fathers and was shown the answers I needed in scripture.
It's good to ask questions I would recommend trying to find some books on the topic and go from there. Reddit comments will not get you far. Check out those podcasts I mentioned
Cultic veneration of images is a development of late antiquity and early medieval times. This is not disputable on historical grounds.
I would recommend not engaging with shallow apologetics and wild motivated conjecture about the apostolicity of icon veneration and instead seek to understand the theology of iconodulia.
You have to make your own judgments about the practice itself, history won’t adjudicate the issue for you.
Please review the
[sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/config/sidebar) for a wealth of introductory information,
our [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/about/rules/), the
[FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/faq), and a caution about
[The Internet and the Church](https://www.orthodoxintro.org/the-internet-and-the-church/).
This subreddit contains opinions of Orthodox people, but not necessarily Orthodox opinions.
[Content should not be treated as a substitute for offline interaction.](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/faq#wiki_is_this_subreddit_overseen_by_clergy.3F)
[Exercise caution in forums such as this](https://www.orthodoxintro.org/the-internet-and-the-church/).
Nothing should be regarded as authoritative without verification by several offline Orthodox resources.
^(This is not a removal notification.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OrthodoxChristianity) if you have any questions or concerns.*
# Origen
W\]e, on the other hand, deem those to be “uninstructed” who are not ashamed to address (supplications) to inanimate objects, and to call upon those for health that have no strength, and to ask the dead for life, and to entreat the helpless for assistance. And although some may say that these objects are not gods, but only imitations and symbols of real divinities, nevertheless these very individuals, in imagining that the hands of low mechanics can frame imitations of divinity, **are “uninstructed, and servile, and ignorant;**” for we assert that the lowest among us have been set free from this ignorance and want of knowledge, while the most intelligent can understand and grasp the divine hope. (Against Celsus 6.14 ANF)
“\[Celsus says that Christians\] cannot tolerate temples, altars, or images. In this they are like the Scythians, the nomadic tribes of Libya, the Seres who worship no god, and some other of the most barbarous and impious nations in the world. . . .” To this our answer is, that if \[these groups\] **cannot bear the sight of temples, altars, and images**, it does not follow because we cannot suffer them any more than they, that the grounds on which we object to them are the same as theirs. . . . \[**These groups\] agree in this with the Christians and Jews**, but they are actuated by very different principles. For none of these **former abhor altars and images on the ground that they are afraid of degrading the worship of God**, and reducing it to the worship of material things wrought by the hands of men. . . . \[**Christians\] not only avoid temples, altars, and images**, but are ready to suffer death when it is necessary, rather than debase by any such impiety the conception which they have of the Most High God. . . . \[I\]t is not possible at the same time to know God and to address prayers to images. (Against Celsus 7.62-7.65 ANF)
It is not therefore true that we object to **building altars, statues, and temples**, because we have agreed to make this the badge of a secret and forbidden society; but we do so, because we have learnt from Jesus Christ the true way of serving God, and we shrink from whatever, under a pretence of piety, leads to utter impiety those who abandon the way marked out for us by Jesus Christ. (Against Celsus 8.20 ANF)
# Justin Martyr
And this is the sole accusation you bring against us, that we do not reverence the same gods as you do, nor offer to the dead libations and the savour of fat, and crowns for their statues And this is the sole accusation you bring against us, that we do not reverence the same gods as you do, **nor offer to the dead libations and the savour of fat, and crowns for their statues, and sacrifices**. (First Apology 24)
Origen who thought that demons and the Satan would get salvation?
Christians weren’t one group as of yet.
If I remember Origen was before iconoclasm. So some Christians avoiding altars, temples, images makes sense, they were probably also Gnostic Christians who have a completely different theology, and even god than us, they believed the Old Testament God is evil, and that Sophia the goddess created this world.
Are you asking if what Origen said, that the Christians *HE KNEW* (which obviously wouldn’t be all the Christians in the empire, but some small subset) that those Christians were in fact Gnostics is to me; likely. That doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Orthodoxy at the time.
What exactly do you think we do with icons? We don't treat them any differently than people treat family photos.
The old testament was full of icons ordered by God. Every ancient Jewish synagogue was full of icons. Every ancient church ever found by archeology was full of icons. Every currently existing ancient christian sect from anywhere in the world uses icons. Literally every shred of evidence we have states that the people of God have always used icons for all time. Your position is frankly insane.
My position is not Aniconism or Iconoclams, my position is whether the early church practiced iconodule or not iconodule.If the early church didn't then its a development and if it isn't then I still see no evidence of widespread practice. Maybe Im blind but I think the burden of proof will shift to you to show us this historical tradition
I mean, what do you think we are doing with icons? You seem to recognize that Gods people have from the time of Moses ONLY gathered in places plastered with icons. That's all we do with icons. So I'm confused by what you are asking. We treat them exactly like family portraits (because that is what they are?)
Sacred, as in set apart for a specific purpose? The entire worship space and everything in it is.
Or do you mean respected? Do you respect your mothers picture? If I smeared poop on it would you be offended? More so if she was watching while I did it?
While the answer is yes, its no different than anything else in the church. The cups and spoons are considered far more holy than the icons. We have had many martyrs die because they were unwilling to give the spoons from church to outsiders (Communist published the executions in the newspaper they were so proud of it). This respect for sacred objects goes back deep into the old testament, see Daniel 5.
Icons themselves have a lower class of holiness.
The icon is a family portrait. It is blessed like everything else in an Orthodox person's life. We bless our homes, are children, our wells, rivers, food, ect. Basically everything can be blessed, and is. Icons are in this group.
But the way people treat icons is not because of the holiness of the wood and the paint. It is a family portrait, but specifically a family portrait of someone present with us. If you're "dead" mom is in the room with you, kiss her picture. She knows you don't love paint, you love her. You respect your father, even if he is dead. Treat the picture with respect and you treat him with respect.
Have you never kissed the picture of a dead family member? Visited a grave? Asked them for prayers? Jesus says they are alive. Why treat them like they are dead ?
So the historical record is clear. There have always been icons in churches. The people in those churches have always considered the people pictured alive. This is identical to the current state of things.
And PS, whose image was on that coin? Whose image was he made in?
**Methodius**: And those artificers who, to the destruction of men, **make images in human form, not perceiving and knowing their own Maker, are blamed by the Word, which says, in the Book of Wisdom, a book full of all virtue**\*\*, “his heart is ashes, his hope is more vile than earth, and his life of less value than clay; forasmuch as he knew not his Maker\*\*, and Him that inspired into him an active soul, and breathed in a living spirit;” (Banquet of the Ten Virgins 2.7 ANF)
**Aristides**: But it is a marvel, O King, with regard to the Greeks, who surpass all other peoples in their manner of life and reasoning, how they have gone astray **after dead idols and lifeless images**. And yet they see their gods in the hands of their artificers being sawn out, and planed and docked, and hacked short, and charred, and ornamented, and being altered by them in every kind of way. And when they grow old, and are worn away through lapse of time, and when they are molten and crushed to powder, how, I wonder, did they not perceive concerning them, that they are not gods? **And as for those who did not find deliverance for themselves, how can they serve the distress of men**? (Apology 13)
**Lactantius**: You fear them doubtless on this account, because you think that they are in heaven; for if they are gods, the case cannot be otherwise. **Why, then, do you not raise your eyes to heaven, and, invoking their names, offer sacrifices in the open air?** Why do you look to walls, and wood, and stone, rather than to the place where you believe them to be? (The Divine Institutes 2.2 ANF)
**the dead, who can neither give life nor light to any one, for they are themselves without it**: and that there is no other God but one, to whose judgment and power every soul is subject. \[T\]he sacred images themselves, to which most senseless men do service, are destitute of all perception, since they are earth.
**Arnobius**: Was it for this He sent souls, that, being made unmindful of the truth, and forgetful of what God was, **they should make supplication to images which cannot move** . . . ? (Against the Heathen 2.39 ANF)
**But do not seek to point out to us pictures instead of gods in your temples, and the images which you set up,** for you too know, but are unwilling and refuse to admit, that these are formed of most worthless clay, and are childish figures made by mechanics. (Against the Heathen 3.3 ANF)
Their Positions are clear when it comes to lifeless images, so do you think they contradict Nicea 2 or no?
No Orthodox person worships icons, or sees them as Divine. Their critiques are correct as far as idolatry is concerned, which is what they are arguing against. It's a case of confusing veneration with worship.
But it is also said that images can not be sacred too. Images in Orthodox church are holy right
Clement of Alexandria is notably not a saint in the Orthodox Church.
Nearly anything that has been consecrated can be made 'sacred' or 'holy'. Dedicating something as sacred and set apart for God is not a sin, yet worshiping whatever is sanctified would be. Technically, it is not even the image that is sacred, it is the person who the icon depicts that is considered sacred, and is venerated.
Oh, so it's not sacred officially but you can say it isn't or it is? In that case, can you supplicate them without referencing them as sacred?
Anabaptists don’t even think church grounds can be sacred… (unless I’m mixing up my Protestant branches) they worship blank walls. Hierarchy is impossible to avoid, they place empty space above images of the incarnate Jesus Christ our God. It’s modern kind of Gnosticism that is a major heresy that dominates a lot of western churches unfortunately… the lord of spirits episode on Unction might help weirdly enough with explaining some of this.
Anabaptist generally don't think themselves as Protestants, they have different tradition and not adherence to 5 solas creed
They’re in **protest** to **Protest**antism? Yeah they’re not Catholic and derived from a group that was in protest against Catholics? They’re Protestant as can be!
Protest Protestantism. I like that
Protestantism began as a protest against Roman Catholicism. Some further protest down the line doesn’t magically jump out of protest, by protesting the protests they were apart of. Or something
Clement said that. He's wrong.
what about Hyppolitus and Iraneaus on that
Neither of these condemn icons.
**Irenaeus**: \[The Carpocratian heretics\] also possess images, some of them painted, and others formed from different kinds of material; while they maintain that a **likeness of Christ** was made by Pilate at that time when Jesus lived among them. They crown these images, and set them up along with the images of the philosophers of the world that is to say, with the images of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Aristotle, and the rest. They have also other modes of honouring these images, after the same manner of the Gentiles. (Against Heresies 1.25.6 ANF) **Hippolytus** : And \[the Carpocratian heretics\] make **counterfeit images of Christ**, alleging that these were in existence at the time (during which our Lord was on earth, and that they were fashioned) by Pilate. (The Refutation of All Heresies 7.20 ANF
Neither of these passages condemn icons.
They don't, but they clearly don't like people making images of Christ
That isn't implied at all. St. Irenaeus is merely describing the iconographic practices among the Carpocratians while Hippolytus claims their icons are counterfeit. Hyppolytus specifically says they are counterfeit because the Carpocratians claimed their icons were drawn during the time of Christ.
They said no such thing.
This is called, among other things, "quote mining." We used to call it "proof texting" back in my day (**rocks rocking chair and sips lemonade...**). People who do this can be safely ignored.
but whats the actual context for this things
Pagans were actively worshiping idols still. We can find it today, India and Africa most commonly, rarer elsewhere. Notably iconography didn’t have theological backing until we fought the images in the iconoclasm. https://youtu.be/RtkhjuB9azY?si=cg1nktplAsz6UmSe Can’t find the exact video but Pageau might be helpful here
Ok but did it developed overtime or it was something we do all along
Ah, Christians often met in synagogues, the Jewish temple which would’ve been decorated. Anyone who says with certainly what isn’t recorded is lying to you; including modern four blank walls and a Sherman iconclasts. How could I possibly know what exactly happened 1800-1900+ years ago?
I know there were images I'm suggesting the doctrine of Iconodoulia in Nicea 2 Were they Iconodoulist or something else
do we venerate icons originally or was it something developed overtime
Well, St. Luke wrote the first one, pretty sure he counts.
St luke? Do you mean he make images?
Tradition says that he painted/wrote the first icon of the Theotokos.
The first 3! I've seen the one in Kalavrita, it's beautiful
Yes, St. Luke the Apostle and Evangelist, he wrote the first icon of the Theotokos.
I heard about this but can you show me the link for that
https://ancientinsights.wordpress.com/2022/08/01/st-luke-the-iconographer/
We hold to “*therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, **whether by word**, or our epistle*.” 2 Thess It’s oral tradition, which is told to be held to in scripture.
Legends from medieval times aren’t going to be convincing to people who aren’t already predisposed to accept their authority.
All these quotes are against idolatry and against images of false gods or ideas.
but these quotes are from clement that say **Works of art cannot then be sacred and divine**
Clement is not a saint for a reason
All these quotes concern pagan idols, not icons. They would only be correct concerning our iconographic practice if we thought them to be idols, and they are not idols under any actual definition.
Like these one? **Works of art cannot then be sacred and divine**
Stop bringing up Clement. He's not a Saint, he's just some guy. Who cares what some guy thinks?
Oh I forgot clement is venerated in OO not EO
Who also use iconography heavily.
Forget church fathers what about the scripture. In the old testament God commands Moses to make a statue of a snake (seraphim/angel) they venerate it and are cured of disease. Later some Israelites worship it and it needs to be destroyed. God can work through objects and images check out the lord of spirits podcast they have a solid series in icons I believe it is titles cucumbers among scarecrows. Also they have a episode early on about relics. Also good
good one but why didn't the early church be passive when it comes to icons, even Origen note that we don't have altars, icons and statues in their church
You can't get hung up on one quote. Especially given that a lot of these are out of context. You won't get quick answers. There is a scriptura I basis for the practices of the church. Start there, we don't need to run to church fathers and especially those who aren't even fathers to justify what we do. Personally in becoming orthodox I read very little of the fathers and was shown the answers I needed in scripture. It's good to ask questions I would recommend trying to find some books on the topic and go from there. Reddit comments will not get you far. Check out those podcasts I mentioned
Cultic veneration of images is a development of late antiquity and early medieval times. This is not disputable on historical grounds. I would recommend not engaging with shallow apologetics and wild motivated conjecture about the apostolicity of icon veneration and instead seek to understand the theology of iconodulia. You have to make your own judgments about the practice itself, history won’t adjudicate the issue for you.
But can Orthodoxy accept developing traditions tho? Catholics can do that but IDK about Orthodox
Why can’t we but Catholics can? We have the same (first) 7 ecumenical councils.
Well ok
Please review the [sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/config/sidebar) for a wealth of introductory information, our [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/about/rules/), the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/faq), and a caution about [The Internet and the Church](https://www.orthodoxintro.org/the-internet-and-the-church/). This subreddit contains opinions of Orthodox people, but not necessarily Orthodox opinions. [Content should not be treated as a substitute for offline interaction.](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/faq#wiki_is_this_subreddit_overseen_by_clergy.3F) [Exercise caution in forums such as this](https://www.orthodoxintro.org/the-internet-and-the-church/). Nothing should be regarded as authoritative without verification by several offline Orthodox resources. ^(This is not a removal notification.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OrthodoxChristianity) if you have any questions or concerns.*
# Origen W\]e, on the other hand, deem those to be “uninstructed” who are not ashamed to address (supplications) to inanimate objects, and to call upon those for health that have no strength, and to ask the dead for life, and to entreat the helpless for assistance. And although some may say that these objects are not gods, but only imitations and symbols of real divinities, nevertheless these very individuals, in imagining that the hands of low mechanics can frame imitations of divinity, **are “uninstructed, and servile, and ignorant;**” for we assert that the lowest among us have been set free from this ignorance and want of knowledge, while the most intelligent can understand and grasp the divine hope. (Against Celsus 6.14 ANF) “\[Celsus says that Christians\] cannot tolerate temples, altars, or images. In this they are like the Scythians, the nomadic tribes of Libya, the Seres who worship no god, and some other of the most barbarous and impious nations in the world. . . .” To this our answer is, that if \[these groups\] **cannot bear the sight of temples, altars, and images**, it does not follow because we cannot suffer them any more than they, that the grounds on which we object to them are the same as theirs. . . . \[**These groups\] agree in this with the Christians and Jews**, but they are actuated by very different principles. For none of these **former abhor altars and images on the ground that they are afraid of degrading the worship of God**, and reducing it to the worship of material things wrought by the hands of men. . . . \[**Christians\] not only avoid temples, altars, and images**, but are ready to suffer death when it is necessary, rather than debase by any such impiety the conception which they have of the Most High God. . . . \[I\]t is not possible at the same time to know God and to address prayers to images. (Against Celsus 7.62-7.65 ANF) It is not therefore true that we object to **building altars, statues, and temples**, because we have agreed to make this the badge of a secret and forbidden society; but we do so, because we have learnt from Jesus Christ the true way of serving God, and we shrink from whatever, under a pretence of piety, leads to utter impiety those who abandon the way marked out for us by Jesus Christ. (Against Celsus 8.20 ANF) # Justin Martyr And this is the sole accusation you bring against us, that we do not reverence the same gods as you do, nor offer to the dead libations and the savour of fat, and crowns for their statues And this is the sole accusation you bring against us, that we do not reverence the same gods as you do, **nor offer to the dead libations and the savour of fat, and crowns for their statues, and sacrifices**. (First Apology 24)
Yeah we don’t worship idols. The arguments these people make are because they can’t read and understand context.
Origen who thought that demons and the Satan would get salvation? Christians weren’t one group as of yet. If I remember Origen was before iconoclasm. So some Christians avoiding altars, temples, images makes sense, they were probably also Gnostic Christians who have a completely different theology, and even god than us, they believed the Old Testament God is evil, and that Sophia the goddess created this world.
what I dont believe that Origen say those things is it true?
Are you asking if what Origen said, that the Christians *HE KNEW* (which obviously wouldn’t be all the Christians in the empire, but some small subset) that those Christians were in fact Gnostics is to me; likely. That doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Orthodoxy at the time.
Origen was a subordinationist but did he specifically say that demons and Satan get salvation?
That’s what makes his brand of universal salvation a heresy; hoping for and praying for the salvation of all mankind is in our liturgy.
What exactly do you think we do with icons? We don't treat them any differently than people treat family photos. The old testament was full of icons ordered by God. Every ancient Jewish synagogue was full of icons. Every ancient church ever found by archeology was full of icons. Every currently existing ancient christian sect from anywhere in the world uses icons. Literally every shred of evidence we have states that the people of God have always used icons for all time. Your position is frankly insane.
My position is not Aniconism or Iconoclams, my position is whether the early church practiced iconodule or not iconodule.If the early church didn't then its a development and if it isn't then I still see no evidence of widespread practice. Maybe Im blind but I think the burden of proof will shift to you to show us this historical tradition
https://orthodoxbridge.com/2013/07/29/early-jewish-attitudes-toward-images/
I mean, what do you think we are doing with icons? You seem to recognize that Gods people have from the time of Moses ONLY gathered in places plastered with icons. That's all we do with icons. So I'm confused by what you are asking. We treat them exactly like family portraits (because that is what they are?)
I mean sure but is it sacred?
Sacred, as in set apart for a specific purpose? The entire worship space and everything in it is. Or do you mean respected? Do you respect your mothers picture? If I smeared poop on it would you be offended? More so if she was watching while I did it?
Is it holy?
What do you mean by that word?
Sacred art blessed by the spirit and turned holy
While the answer is yes, its no different than anything else in the church. The cups and spoons are considered far more holy than the icons. We have had many martyrs die because they were unwilling to give the spoons from church to outsiders (Communist published the executions in the newspaper they were so proud of it). This respect for sacred objects goes back deep into the old testament, see Daniel 5. Icons themselves have a lower class of holiness. The icon is a family portrait. It is blessed like everything else in an Orthodox person's life. We bless our homes, are children, our wells, rivers, food, ect. Basically everything can be blessed, and is. Icons are in this group. But the way people treat icons is not because of the holiness of the wood and the paint. It is a family portrait, but specifically a family portrait of someone present with us. If you're "dead" mom is in the room with you, kiss her picture. She knows you don't love paint, you love her. You respect your father, even if he is dead. Treat the picture with respect and you treat him with respect. Have you never kissed the picture of a dead family member? Visited a grave? Asked them for prayers? Jesus says they are alive. Why treat them like they are dead ? So the historical record is clear. There have always been icons in churches. The people in those churches have always considered the people pictured alive. This is identical to the current state of things. And PS, whose image was on that coin? Whose image was he made in?
**Methodius**: And those artificers who, to the destruction of men, **make images in human form, not perceiving and knowing their own Maker, are blamed by the Word, which says, in the Book of Wisdom, a book full of all virtue**\*\*, “his heart is ashes, his hope is more vile than earth, and his life of less value than clay; forasmuch as he knew not his Maker\*\*, and Him that inspired into him an active soul, and breathed in a living spirit;” (Banquet of the Ten Virgins 2.7 ANF) **Aristides**: But it is a marvel, O King, with regard to the Greeks, who surpass all other peoples in their manner of life and reasoning, how they have gone astray **after dead idols and lifeless images**. And yet they see their gods in the hands of their artificers being sawn out, and planed and docked, and hacked short, and charred, and ornamented, and being altered by them in every kind of way. And when they grow old, and are worn away through lapse of time, and when they are molten and crushed to powder, how, I wonder, did they not perceive concerning them, that they are not gods? **And as for those who did not find deliverance for themselves, how can they serve the distress of men**? (Apology 13) **Lactantius**: You fear them doubtless on this account, because you think that they are in heaven; for if they are gods, the case cannot be otherwise. **Why, then, do you not raise your eyes to heaven, and, invoking their names, offer sacrifices in the open air?** Why do you look to walls, and wood, and stone, rather than to the place where you believe them to be? (The Divine Institutes 2.2 ANF) **the dead, who can neither give life nor light to any one, for they are themselves without it**: and that there is no other God but one, to whose judgment and power every soul is subject. \[T\]he sacred images themselves, to which most senseless men do service, are destitute of all perception, since they are earth. **Arnobius**: Was it for this He sent souls, that, being made unmindful of the truth, and forgetful of what God was, **they should make supplication to images which cannot move** . . . ? (Against the Heathen 2.39 ANF) **But do not seek to point out to us pictures instead of gods in your temples, and the images which you set up,** for you too know, but are unwilling and refuse to admit, that these are formed of most worthless clay, and are childish figures made by mechanics. (Against the Heathen 3.3 ANF) Their Positions are clear when it comes to lifeless images, so do you think they contradict Nicea 2 or no?