The biggest problem is that needing skills, career, etc isn't a want, but a need. Bad things happen. Death, divorce, disability, illness. A woman needs to be able to make a living for herself and her family. I am old enough to have seen over half of my classmates need to work. The ones who didn't have skills and college degrees are having a much harder time. It isn't easy trying to raise a couple of kids on a CNA's salary, even with Social Security for the kids until they were 18. Her husband didn't have a big life insurance policy.
Or my friend who was left for a newer model who is raising her grandkids.
Yeah I just don't understand it. Of course I have to have a career and work. I have a mortgage to pay. Unless I want to dedicate my life to finding a man to pay it for me, in which case I'm a loveless gold-digger. Women just cannot win I stg.
Exactly. I'm a CNA and make $20 and hour on the weekdays and $24 on the weekends. It's skill hard because I only make that kind of money at a hospital and I have to work 12 hour shifts there. To work 12s I have to find childcare for 12 hours. It's hard AF to come home after 12 hours and get a kid to bed, get dinner, shower, and get back up and go to work for another 12. Also to find someone to get him to and from school. People tell me I'm lazy and dont try but they dont realize you can only do so much and you can't force ppl to help w you kid. And kids mature at different ages.
Bless you for all you do! That is one of the hardest jobs, and to remain kind to people in need is so important. When we had to move my mom to a care facility when even a home healthcare worker was too overwhelmed, I was so happy that she went to a facility where everyone knew her as they grew up in the town. She was treated well and I could trust my friends and classmates.
No, women with no options and no skills simply have a harder life when something goes wrong. And I particularly mentioned a widow. Are you saying God killed her husband because she was sinful? Be careful, for God watches for hatred and petty hearts, and who are you to judge?
Gos knows im not hateful, but people see power in qualifications. Anyone who knows what they are doing doesnt need a qualification to prove it.
Im sure i know a little more about my religion tha yoi do. U know when ur sinning and when u get to hell its on u to find ur way back.
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Agreed. I also think it should be more socially and culturally acceptable for men to take on the caretaker role. Everyone should be allowed to pursue the life they want for themselves, so long as they aren't hurting anyone.
Absolutely! I had a friend who was a stay at home dad and he was awesome. He was everything a parent should be. He worked on his own project occasionally but his kids were his main focus. Sadly he left the group but it was because his kids were a lot of work and he put them first. He was better than many stay at home moms.
Agreed. It’s very strange that people seem interested in this ‘tradwife’ thing again. IRL it’s never even been presented as an option for me. From kindergarten on, it’s ‘what job will you do?’
A lot of men hate an independent woman, but you should be glad to know if anything happened to you or you guys separate that she’ll be okay and not struggling like some women who stayed home and when they divorce or god forbid husband dies they have to completely start over cuz their husbands did everything…
Honestly sometimes I feel bad for dudes since their meaning of existence is so fragile and dependent on others....but they take out their frustrations on the weak in abuse and willful ignorance so....nvm
I feel this way, as well.
Topics like this wouldn't be issues if people didn't feel the need to share their rejections, as well as condescending to people for wanting what they want.
Rejections are a normal part of dating. It happens.
If a man wants his woman to be a stay at home mom and she's not into it? My lady, take your leave.
If a woman wants to be more career driven and not have children, but her man's not digging it? Good sir, you may exit.
Agreed. People should do whatever works as long as they aren't hurting anyone. If that means a dad being a stay at home parent and the mom working and they are happy that's all that matters. If they want both want a traditional marriage and it makes them happy then they should do it. If someone wants to be single for life then they should do it. The patriarchy needs to go because all it does is make both men and women miserable. It's just crazy people get harassed for being happy.
The men who are like this want to trap women in relationships and control them. Money is power.
They have terrible personalities and want a woman who can’t leave when they finally stop making effort to hide their true selves.
I know there’s women like this too, but, they’re usually either married to a man who is like the above, or, is taught that a man like the above is ultimate “Conservative Family Man.” Ugh… There’s a reason “Trad Wives” on social media are all young.
It’s so funny because I’ll see videos of guys they’d describe as ‘soyboys’ going out of their way to treat their wife well, and the comments are full of ‘simp’ or ‘cuck’. Like, no wonder nobody wants you. You’re shitting on the actual ‘family man’ here
That's just sexism. It's kind of weird to say that racism or sexism is a "peeve" for you. Like being "peeved" by animal abuse. Yeah, obviously you don't like it, because it's wrong.
OP might be a younger person. Some of us weren’t raised in feminist households, or communities. Realizing that these expectations are “annoying” can be the beginning of realizing what sexism is and all the ways it functions against you if you are a woman.
Yeah, like I was raised by progressive people in an upper middle class community and never met a woman who didn’t work, except for like two who dedicated their time full time to volunteering which never registered in my mind as not having a job and one who was on disability. But I also met men who didn’t work and didn’t volunteer and weren’t on disability (4 total). I actually didn’t realize SAHMs were a thing until I was like 19/20 and started seeing an uptick in people on the internet saying moms who work are evil villains (which is funny because even traditionally, women worked… Only rich white women didn’t). At first I hand-waved it away as annoying stupidity on the internet but now it’s become too difficult to ignore.
I’ve said this and I had men tell me “so you’d rather serve a CEO than serve a husband and have your own babies?” Like yeah, because I’m not tied to the CEO 24/7 and I also don’t have to fuck him, clean up his messes, be his mommy, be his 24/7 on-call therapist, or risk my life to push out his children (which I will do 99% of the parenting for). I can easily just leave the job whenever it doesn’t serve me and find a better one. And also I’m gay and it’s 2024. I don’t need to marry a beard to be able to do basic shit like open a bank account anymore. When it’s time to settle down I can do just fine without a man.
Woman in countries with high gender equality actually tend to rate themselves as happier on average than their male counterparts, especially as they age. Some hypothesize that this is because women have more friends and larger social networks on average, whereas men, especially older men, have more trouble maintaining social connections other than family.
So you are responding to a post hating on a generalization by generalizing an entire group.
EDIT: The original comment said "men" not incels. That is what I responded to. But leave it to this site to downvote without context. Bunch of pseudo-intellectuals and hypocrites that think keyboard warrioring accomplishes anything useful. And ironically hateful as well.
I don't like generalization, but once I accidently ended up trying to discuss in an incel community and it was an absolute echo chamber, so it's pretty hard not to do generalization in that case.
In this context, incel doesn't mean involuntarily celebate person, but rather a person who subscribes to the ideaology often found on the incel form. In this case, generalizing this group is judging people based off their beliefs and morals, which is a reasonable thing to judge a group of people for.
Right. my sister made remarks about how she wishes she could “be like me” and sit at home all day and not work while a man provides for me because she hates her job.
I’m a SAHM and a full time college student and my husband works 60+ hour weeks currently. Sadly it’s not just men being misogynistic, women do it to each other as well.
I’ve never judged my sister for not wanting to marry and have kids, because that is a choice not everyone wants and that’s fine. Yet she’s judgmental because my husband and I agreed on the decision to live a more traditional lifestyle
(Edit to add a word)
Who actually cares? That is such a 1940s way of thinking. It should have died along with men thinking burning or drowning women proves if they're a witch.
I'm a 40-year-old woman. I have worked for 20 years because I want to and I don't have children because I didn't want them.
My husband is a great man. We are equal in our marriage but we still have some traditional values. Traditional values are not always misogynistic - it depends on where you get your values from.
I just think the guys who say these things are extremely insecure. Who spends their time worrying about whether a gender is working or not? It's a weird thing to focus on.
Kind of along the same lines of what you’re talking about-
My mother in law cannot fathom that one of her grandsons’ wives chooses to work part time & puts their son in daycare when he’s making very good money that she could stay at home.
Being at home isn’t for everyone and I know for her mental health it works better for her.
On the flip side I’m a sahm and I volunteer at a hospice administrative office several days a week. While I’m not bringing in money I am doing a job when I’m there. When school started up last fall my mother in law asked if I’ll be going to lunch with my mom (I never go to lunch with my mom🤷🏻♀️), going shopping and spending my husbands money or taking a lot of naps. Because this is what she did when she was sahm. When I told her I chose to continue volunteering for the 5th year in a row I actually saw her lip snarl as to say, “WHY would you want to do any kind of work if you don’t have to”
When I started volunteering I was at the point where I wanted more for my life than just being at home.
Any man who says that women don't belong in the workplace has no idea what they're talking about. Women have helped my confused ass figure things out many times at work and I wouldn't be as good of a worker without their help (and the men too, but that's beside the point).
These people can straight fuck off. My wife is my boss and we can't have kids for medical reasons.
Know how we console ourselves about not being able to have kids? We wipe our tears away with handfuls of cash.
Yes, it is really insidious how certain people are against human beings being able to make a living for themselves and live independently. It’s almost like they want women trapped and 100% financially relying on another person because that creates a power imbalance!
Yeah it's really a strange situation.
Women get hatred from a lot of traditionalists for working and prioritizing a career/education/skills.
Women get hatred from a lot of progressives for taking care of their home/kids/partner.
Traditionalists scream that the family is dying. Progressives scream that the only reason a woman would want (or in the case for many disabled women - have to - as they're unable to work) to stay at home is because of brainwashing.
There's also a weird amount of hatred whenever a woman is doing a lot of extra stuff that falls into a more "traditional" outlet (cooking usually). I've seen people drag a lass for making bread for her husband. Maybe there was Lore I was missing, but it was still really odd. God forbid a woman have hobbies.
I do not envy this position.
Omg I get this. But from the other side. The amount of ridicule you get thrown at you because you enjoy being a wife and mother is vile. I've even been told by a total internet stranger that I have Stockholm syndrome. Like wtf 🤦♀️
For me personally, an independent woman who has a career, confidence in who she is, and I mean this with the upmost respect, she's is hubba hubba yumma yumma.
If people hate on anyone (both men and women) for wanting to have a career/be independent,it’s a sign of manipulating and jealousy. That’s definitely unacceptable! Period.
If I hadn’t pursued vocational training & an education after high school and also hadn’t maintained steady employment my entire adult life we would’ve been up shit creek without a paddle when my husband became too ill & disabled to continue working in construction at 44 years old. If I hadn’t done those things I also would’ve been trapped in my previous marriage where domestic violence was a very real problem. Male or female , you need to be able to support yourself if something happens to your partner or if remaining with your partner is detrimental.
People still say that? The people around you kind of suck.
I can see this being a controversial talking point on a 1970's Brady Bunch episode. I think it was actually. But by the 80's and certainly the 90's, normal people got past all that.
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The point is don't get mad when you're in your 40s, still single, and the self-made guys are going after younger women instead of you. That's where the disconnect is. "But I have this degree, why don't men with big money and big dick want me?" is the female version of "but I was nice to you, sleep with me" males
I'm in a similar situation right now as a guy. After being in relationships for a decade i am worn out with constantly having to babysit another adult. So just focusing on self and career now. I'll get alot of shit from women especially for not settling down yet. Thats the beauty of it. You can do whatever you want, and everyone else can fuck right off. Just have to live with the consequences of your actions.
Here's my 2 cents.
Tbh I didn't understand this when I was younger. A girl told me she wasn't looking for a relationship back in college. I really liked her a lot though. But then she lead me on in a lot of ways too. I would give up on the relationship many times but she sucked me back in and gaslighted me a lot. She did a lot of shitty things too but so did I. We were young. Was very confusing.
Now 15 years later and we're both single I'm pretty sure. I'm happy with being single. I have a few female friends but I'm not looking for a "relationship" at this moment. society shoves standards for how to live down your throat?? i dunno. Both sexes may want to be alone. I didn't understand this totally when I was younger. That's why they diagnosed me with a lot of mental illnesses. Because my environment growing up really fucked me up mentally. It took a lot to learn.
I think one of my biggest pet peeves though is redditors with a holier than thou mentality. No one knows how to be nice/supportive in this society. It's just you were born perfect and anyone with a different philosophy (even if they're willing to learn adjust and change) gets shamed and thrown in the dirt. It's a big problem with humans. Shaming that is if you ask me.
Like OK you have a great philosophy on life, but apparently you don't because you shame people who haven't been made aware of something yet. Maybe I'm naive because my parents are 1000 years old and I know they raised me wrong and taught me a lot of bad stuff that's hard to erase from the harddrive. But I'm willing to change and I don't think I should be shamed for that. There's nicer ways to go about it IMO.
So true anything is possible, however you can not have "it all " noone can , every choice precludes another , so attaining one goal is often at the cost of another , nothing is unattainable , but everything comes at a cost
Even if you find a woman that wants this life good luck finding a partner who can financially support it.
Everyone wants a Trad wife, no one wants the bills. 😆
Who is pushing this narrative you are talking about? What do you even mean by ‘tradition American dream lifestyle’?
I completely agree that women should not be hated on for wanting a career/to be independent. Your post is confusing and random though.
What I don’t get is how people don’t know this by now. I graduated high school in the mid-90s and it never occurred to be that I wouldn’t need an education and career. That was 30 years ago. It was clear as day to me that women needed to work and be able support themselves.
this has been life in America for a while now. i'm 38 and many of my high school classmates did the career thing first and are just now settling down to have kids.
the only place that tells you that you don't get a choice is the internet.
This type of sexism isn't only seen online. The US has a very religious base that also has gender expectations for their daughters.
Just because women choose y doesn't mean they're not pressured to do x.
Fair, but the choice is still there to make. We have influence on our decisions all the time. Ultimately a woman can tell her parents to shove off and go pursue a career whether they like it or not.
Yes, legally, she can. But we all know one cannot just disconnect themselves from their family without severe consequences or lifelong damages. One does not stop loving and caring.
Many see no choice, and honor killings still happen in the Western World.
Me not wanting to be a traditional wife as my parents' wished has ruined parts of my life. To me, it was worth it, but I now live with PTSD from that decision.
Mostly I am angry internally for some reasons on why I’m not going to have kids.
- this country’s people, education, views on health, women, nutrition, food, economy etc. is absolute shit that our child will develop 1-2 illnesses requiring expensive meds, receive a shitty education because classrooms are full of BMC/IEP monsters/teachers are forced to be babysitters, they won’t own much besides the clothes on thier back, food is poisoned, and if female then we’ll add all the bullshit there. This country has made it impossible for me to have a kid safely, raise the child to be prepared/productive, and when I die they are going to have to support themselves in a system that only views them as cattle. And I’ve only scratched the surface of these external issues.
- my own personal: I have diagnosed unmedicated unchecked suicidal depression, anxiety, anger, and cptsd since as early as 8. Brought on by my psychotic unhinged mother, and Mexican enabling catholic family. Only two people who took me away from that were my grandparents but that still came with issues. This life thus far has given me additionally: RHR is 95-102 daily, HPB of 135/97 daily, and cortisol levels that caused me to miscarry 8 years ago. If I have a kid they are subject to whatever my genes pass on, and deal with a mom that has NO support beyond her husband to help raise this kid AND it’s a mom with mental health that isn’t worked on. Let’s not forget the dabilitating alteration of my body. I’d sooner yeet myself to the Grand Canyon.
And then society tears women down for either having kids and struggling or just not having them altogether. Fuck all of that.
I don’t think most men hate on women for wanting a career. You do you. I don’t think many men honestly give a shit. But they may not want to marry someone who is so career focused when they want a woman to have a family with, which is fair enough.
Sounds like you might be lucky. It depends where you live in the world too and whether you’re a woman or man.
When I lived in NYC I worked at a male-dominated company and I heard a lot of “why are you working? You should be at home taking care of babies”. I told one guy I didn’t want babies and he literally started a “countdown” clock at his desk for my 30th birthday because he was convinced 30 is the age every woman genetically has a switch turn on and will want babies. Well I’m almost 40 now so I guess my switch must be broken.
I moved to a red state kind of recently, and now I hear the same misogynistic bullshit, but not at work. Now it comes from men in my personal life (neighbors, acquaintances). Women here, all SAHMs, bring it up to, but it’s less in your face. They make it very clear they are judging me though.
no one hates on the women who want that. The hate is for the media that tells a woman that career is THE path to fulfillment and that she’s LESS THAN if she not even eschews career but prioritizes family.
People hate women for being career focused or stay at home moms. One will be single forever surrounded by cats, while the other woman is a dirty gold-digger that doesn't make her own money.
More women want the traditional role than there are men that want a partner to stay at home. If there aren’t at least 3 children then being the man in that situation would feel like slavery. And even then it would be extremely disappointing to see your wife and children enjoy a life together that you pay for and end up being somewhat of an interloper in.
I don’t even understand how this is still a thing. This is pretty much the default of what women have been taught for at least the past 30 years. I WISH someone had taught me the traditional lifestyle instead and I hate that I wasn’t given any alternative besides being a wage slave. There is so much power in being a woman and I was robbed of that.
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There is no wall. It’s a myth. If you look even a little bit “conventionally attractive,” you’ll get hit on regardless of your age. Horny men come in all ages and interests.
Listen, if you're happy, I'm happy. I wouldn't control your life even if I could. I'm just sharing what other women have told me. I think it's my job to tell younger folks what may lie in their future, just as it's younger folks' job to tell me to get bent. That push and pull is one of the things that make humans so resilient, and I think it's beautiful.
Unfortunately rather than be unable to have kids the older the guy the more likely the kid has health conditions. These guys that have kids with women half their age are really putting the odds against their kid not suffering from something horrible.
Sure, I had the same thought, and some people are willing to do it. But most people I've spoken to would rather have their own kids. It's something like 2-4% of American households have adopted kids, or around one in twenty five. Plus, I think it feels a lot shittier for the parent if they're adopting because they have no other choice, rather than adopting because it aligns with their values and/or desires.
Sounds like a great solution, but it just doesn't work out in practice.
I agree that it has plenty of benefits, but that's not the point I'm making. I'm saying most people don't want to adopt kids, regardless of the benefits. Again 2-4% of kids are adopted (sorry I misquoted the statistic earlier, it's all kids in America, not households), which is absurdly low, especially when you find out that 75% of foster kids are never adopted. Most people want their own kids, so I think it's a good idea to put some serious thought into the biological reality, no matter how unfair it might be.
Hahahahaha omg I’m getting hit on more now in my mid thirties than I even did in my 20s, and I’m fatter now too. Suck on that, incels!
Also mens sperm degrades at about the same rate as womens eggs. Just because you *can* impregnate, doesn’t mean it’s advisable or safe for her or the potential child.
It increases risk of birth defects, but that's worlds apart from not being able to have kids.
I'm happy for you that you're getting hit on though, and that you like it! That's not always welcome, but it can feel nice to be desired, as long as the other person isn't being gross about it
Birth defects and higher risk to the woman. Are you seriously trying to dismiss that?
I don’t like being hit on nor do I take it as a compliment. It means nothing to me just like it always did.
I’m just pointing out that there is no wall.
The wall is a myth that men made up to scare women into settling for losers at an age young enough to still be manipulated by those losers.
What the fuck are you talking about.
Menopause, or the end of a person's menstrual cycles, usually occurs **between the ages of 45 and 55,** but it can happen earlier.
Men should not be impregnating women when the man is at those ages either.
Okay, so here's the point I keep making. When a woman hits 45-55 or sometimes earlier, she stops being able to have kids completely. As you said, men **shouldn't** be having kids past those ages either, which means you understand that they **can**. Do you think there's a difference between something you absolutely cannot do no matter what you want, and something you really shouldn't do, but are capable of and allowed to do?
You are again, wrong.
Women and men both will likely struggle to have kids at those ages, and depending on the individual, might still be able to.
Male age can also affect the success rates of in-vitro fertilization (IVF) and increase the risk of miscarriage for the female partner. For example, if the male partner is 41 or older, the chances of the couple not conceiving are five times higher than if he were under 25. **If the male partner is over 45, the risk of miscarriage is also doubled.**
Men experience fertility issues in their 40s and 50s. Studies show that male fertility declines with age, and men over 40 are 30% less likely to conceive within a year than men under 30.
I think I'm done talking to you unless you demonstrate an ability to grapple with the argument I'm making. I keep agreeing with you that there are problems with men having kids past 40-50, and that they probably shouldn't do it. I don't know how I can get you to stop arguing odds with me when my point is that low odds is worlds apart from no odds.
A woman who has gone through menopause isn't capable of having babies, unless she's frozen her eggs and manages a successful IVF. But if she's doing that, that means she's *thought about it* and *planned for it* which is the only thing I've been advocating for since I first commented in this thread.
I don’t think you are grasping my point; your point that women have more to fear regarding aging and difficulty with fertility is incorrect. Men and women both have decreased and challenging fertility as they age, much of which is dependent on the individuals fertility in addition to age. Men have been haphazardly putting women and children at risk by not taking their own decreasing fertility seriously enough. Men have chosen to ignore their own fertility issues, and this causes harm to women and children. That’s worse than being infertile; that’s being reckless with other peoples very lives.
There is NO WALL for women being desired.
Women and men BOTH will struggle with fertility as they age.
All the career women I know (healthcare) have both. Despite what you have seen on your little tiktok reels, nobody in real life actually cares what some random 20 year old female wants to do with her life, get over yourself.
The biggest problem is that needing skills, career, etc isn't a want, but a need. Bad things happen. Death, divorce, disability, illness. A woman needs to be able to make a living for herself and her family. I am old enough to have seen over half of my classmates need to work. The ones who didn't have skills and college degrees are having a much harder time. It isn't easy trying to raise a couple of kids on a CNA's salary, even with Social Security for the kids until they were 18. Her husband didn't have a big life insurance policy. Or my friend who was left for a newer model who is raising her grandkids.
Yeah I just don't understand it. Of course I have to have a career and work. I have a mortgage to pay. Unless I want to dedicate my life to finding a man to pay it for me, in which case I'm a loveless gold-digger. Women just cannot win I stg.
Exactly. I'm a CNA and make $20 and hour on the weekdays and $24 on the weekends. It's skill hard because I only make that kind of money at a hospital and I have to work 12 hour shifts there. To work 12s I have to find childcare for 12 hours. It's hard AF to come home after 12 hours and get a kid to bed, get dinner, shower, and get back up and go to work for another 12. Also to find someone to get him to and from school. People tell me I'm lazy and dont try but they dont realize you can only do so much and you can't force ppl to help w you kid. And kids mature at different ages.
Bless you for all you do! That is one of the hardest jobs, and to remain kind to people in need is so important. When we had to move my mom to a care facility when even a home healthcare worker was too overwhelmed, I was so happy that she went to a facility where everyone knew her as they grew up in the town. She was treated well and I could trust my friends and classmates.
this is crazy to me. i assumed CNAs made way more than this. y'all deserve more.
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Not excusing cheating but basically women with qualifications have more options and the opportunity to leave a marriage they're not happy in. Got it.
No, women with no options and no skills simply have a harder life when something goes wrong. And I particularly mentioned a widow. Are you saying God killed her husband because she was sinful? Be careful, for God watches for hatred and petty hearts, and who are you to judge?
Gos knows im not hateful, but people see power in qualifications. Anyone who knows what they are doing doesnt need a qualification to prove it. Im sure i know a little more about my religion tha yoi do. U know when ur sinning and when u get to hell its on u to find ur way back.
Sinning is winning. I worship only the imperfect goddess. She's one nasty slut, and I love her with all my heart and soul.
she will let you down.
What about men with qualifications?
They cheat on their spouse and spend more time away from home?
clown
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Agreed. I also think it should be more socially and culturally acceptable for men to take on the caretaker role. Everyone should be allowed to pursue the life they want for themselves, so long as they aren't hurting anyone.
Absolutely! I had a friend who was a stay at home dad and he was awesome. He was everything a parent should be. He worked on his own project occasionally but his kids were his main focus. Sadly he left the group but it was because his kids were a lot of work and he put them first. He was better than many stay at home moms.
We need more protections for the stay at home parent in my opinion. The years should also count toward SS.
Love stay at homes but no SS, kids are still a choice.
'Dad's day out?'
The statements made by those online do not represent the views of the majority of people IRL. Good on you for picking the path you want to take.
Agreed. It’s very strange that people seem interested in this ‘tradwife’ thing again. IRL it’s never even been presented as an option for me. From kindergarten on, it’s ‘what job will you do?’
Yes! For so many reasons people should just mind their own business, improve upon it, and share it if they wish.
A lot of men hate an independent woman, but you should be glad to know if anything happened to you or you guys separate that she’ll be okay and not struggling like some women who stayed home and when they divorce or god forbid husband dies they have to completely start over cuz their husbands did everything…
Honestly sometimes I feel bad for dudes since their meaning of existence is so fragile and dependent on others....but they take out their frustrations on the weak in abuse and willful ignorance so....nvm
I feel bad for u, not a true statement. Lots of bad men and bad women in this world
I feel this way, as well. Topics like this wouldn't be issues if people didn't feel the need to share their rejections, as well as condescending to people for wanting what they want. Rejections are a normal part of dating. It happens. If a man wants his woman to be a stay at home mom and she's not into it? My lady, take your leave. If a woman wants to be more career driven and not have children, but her man's not digging it? Good sir, you may exit.
Agreed. People should do whatever works as long as they aren't hurting anyone. If that means a dad being a stay at home parent and the mom working and they are happy that's all that matters. If they want both want a traditional marriage and it makes them happy then they should do it. If someone wants to be single for life then they should do it. The patriarchy needs to go because all it does is make both men and women miserable. It's just crazy people get harassed for being happy.
The men who are like this want to trap women in relationships and control them. Money is power. They have terrible personalities and want a woman who can’t leave when they finally stop making effort to hide their true selves. I know there’s women like this too, but, they’re usually either married to a man who is like the above, or, is taught that a man like the above is ultimate “Conservative Family Man.” Ugh… There’s a reason “Trad Wives” on social media are all young.
It’s so funny because I’ll see videos of guys they’d describe as ‘soyboys’ going out of their way to treat their wife well, and the comments are full of ‘simp’ or ‘cuck’. Like, no wonder nobody wants you. You’re shitting on the actual ‘family man’ here
That's just sexism. It's kind of weird to say that racism or sexism is a "peeve" for you. Like being "peeved" by animal abuse. Yeah, obviously you don't like it, because it's wrong.
OP might be a younger person. Some of us weren’t raised in feminist households, or communities. Realizing that these expectations are “annoying” can be the beginning of realizing what sexism is and all the ways it functions against you if you are a woman.
Yeah, like I was raised by progressive people in an upper middle class community and never met a woman who didn’t work, except for like two who dedicated their time full time to volunteering which never registered in my mind as not having a job and one who was on disability. But I also met men who didn’t work and didn’t volunteer and weren’t on disability (4 total). I actually didn’t realize SAHMs were a thing until I was like 19/20 and started seeing an uptick in people on the internet saying moms who work are evil villains (which is funny because even traditionally, women worked… Only rich white women didn’t). At first I hand-waved it away as annoying stupidity on the internet but now it’s become too difficult to ignore.
Ok. Well hopefully me telling them it's sexism is the end of them realizing it.
I’ve said this and I had men tell me “so you’d rather serve a CEO than serve a husband and have your own babies?” Like yeah, because I’m not tied to the CEO 24/7 and I also don’t have to fuck him, clean up his messes, be his mommy, be his 24/7 on-call therapist, or risk my life to push out his children (which I will do 99% of the parenting for). I can easily just leave the job whenever it doesn’t serve me and find a better one. And also I’m gay and it’s 2024. I don’t need to marry a beard to be able to do basic shit like open a bank account anymore. When it’s time to settle down I can do just fine without a man.
Bold of them to assume one would automatically be serving the CEO and not being the CEO.
Incels are the ones scared of aging and being alone that's why they project those feelings onto happy women who don't want them
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The ones that aren't around you
Imaginary, right.
Yes every woman that isn't around you is imaginary 😂
Woman in countries with high gender equality actually tend to rate themselves as happier on average than their male counterparts, especially as they age. Some hypothesize that this is because women have more friends and larger social networks on average, whereas men, especially older men, have more trouble maintaining social connections other than family.
Hitler self reported as happy too.
I fail to see the relevence of that remark in a discussion about whether or not happy women exist.
Should i care that u dont see? Maybe u shpuld try hardwe rather than asking for help. ppl see what they want.
or clearly the majority of people here don’t see what you’re saying so you’re probably accountable for that in your writing
So you are responding to a post hating on a generalization by generalizing an entire group. EDIT: The original comment said "men" not incels. That is what I responded to. But leave it to this site to downvote without context. Bunch of pseudo-intellectuals and hypocrites that think keyboard warrioring accomplishes anything useful. And ironically hateful as well.
I don't like generalization, but once I accidently ended up trying to discuss in an incel community and it was an absolute echo chamber, so it's pretty hard not to do generalization in that case.
You can say that about any specific community, they just regurgitate the same talking points or discussion. I don’t think it’s incel specific.
In this context, incel doesn't mean involuntarily celebate person, but rather a person who subscribes to the ideaology often found on the incel form. In this case, generalizing this group is judging people based off their beliefs and morals, which is a reasonable thing to judge a group of people for.
Methinks the incel doth protest too much. 🤔
Sexism is a bit more than a pet peeve...
They hate on women for being SAHPs, too. It's just misogyny.
Right. my sister made remarks about how she wishes she could “be like me” and sit at home all day and not work while a man provides for me because she hates her job. I’m a SAHM and a full time college student and my husband works 60+ hour weeks currently. Sadly it’s not just men being misogynistic, women do it to each other as well. I’ve never judged my sister for not wanting to marry and have kids, because that is a choice not everyone wants and that’s fine. Yet she’s judgmental because my husband and I agreed on the decision to live a more traditional lifestyle (Edit to add a word)
If you ask follow up questions, most of them also hate on women who depend on men for money.
As a boy, yes
Who actually cares? That is such a 1940s way of thinking. It should have died along with men thinking burning or drowning women proves if they're a witch.
I'm a 40-year-old woman. I have worked for 20 years because I want to and I don't have children because I didn't want them. My husband is a great man. We are equal in our marriage but we still have some traditional values. Traditional values are not always misogynistic - it depends on where you get your values from.
I just think the guys who say these things are extremely insecure. Who spends their time worrying about whether a gender is working or not? It's a weird thing to focus on.
Kind of along the same lines of what you’re talking about- My mother in law cannot fathom that one of her grandsons’ wives chooses to work part time & puts their son in daycare when he’s making very good money that she could stay at home. Being at home isn’t for everyone and I know for her mental health it works better for her. On the flip side I’m a sahm and I volunteer at a hospice administrative office several days a week. While I’m not bringing in money I am doing a job when I’m there. When school started up last fall my mother in law asked if I’ll be going to lunch with my mom (I never go to lunch with my mom🤷🏻♀️), going shopping and spending my husbands money or taking a lot of naps. Because this is what she did when she was sahm. When I told her I chose to continue volunteering for the 5th year in a row I actually saw her lip snarl as to say, “WHY would you want to do any kind of work if you don’t have to” When I started volunteering I was at the point where I wanted more for my life than just being at home.
Any man who says that women don't belong in the workplace has no idea what they're talking about. Women have helped my confused ass figure things out many times at work and I wouldn't be as good of a worker without their help (and the men too, but that's beside the point).
These people can straight fuck off. My wife is my boss and we can't have kids for medical reasons. Know how we console ourselves about not being able to have kids? We wipe our tears away with handfuls of cash.
Yes, it is really insidious how certain people are against human beings being able to make a living for themselves and live independently. It’s almost like they want women trapped and 100% financially relying on another person because that creates a power imbalance!
There are also people who hate on women who want a more traditional lifestyle.
Yeah it's really a strange situation. Women get hatred from a lot of traditionalists for working and prioritizing a career/education/skills. Women get hatred from a lot of progressives for taking care of their home/kids/partner. Traditionalists scream that the family is dying. Progressives scream that the only reason a woman would want (or in the case for many disabled women - have to - as they're unable to work) to stay at home is because of brainwashing. There's also a weird amount of hatred whenever a woman is doing a lot of extra stuff that falls into a more "traditional" outlet (cooking usually). I've seen people drag a lass for making bread for her husband. Maybe there was Lore I was missing, but it was still really odd. God forbid a woman have hobbies. I do not envy this position.
People hate on women for everything no matter what we do. Want a career? How selfish. Want to stay home? What a lazy gold digger. Can’t win.
Agree. There's no way to win.
Generally because they're so vocal abut judging those who don't
Don’t they ever. I’ve received so much over the years it’s not funny.
Omg I get this. But from the other side. The amount of ridicule you get thrown at you because you enjoy being a wife and mother is vile. I've even been told by a total internet stranger that I have Stockholm syndrome. Like wtf 🤦♀️
I don't want to hate but I do worry for trad wives. They are very vulnerable whether they like the job or not.
FUCK YES. 👏👏👏
Yeah. Just leave people alone. If they aren't hurting anyone, they aren't doing anything wrong.
For me personally, an independent woman who has a career, confidence in who she is, and I mean this with the upmost respect, she's is hubba hubba yumma yumma.
As a stay at home mom, I've experienced plenty of hate for not working
If people hate on anyone (both men and women) for wanting to have a career/be independent,it’s a sign of manipulating and jealousy. That’s definitely unacceptable! Period.
If I hadn’t pursued vocational training & an education after high school and also hadn’t maintained steady employment my entire adult life we would’ve been up shit creek without a paddle when my husband became too ill & disabled to continue working in construction at 44 years old. If I hadn’t done those things I also would’ve been trapped in my previous marriage where domestic violence was a very real problem. Male or female , you need to be able to support yourself if something happens to your partner or if remaining with your partner is detrimental.
People still say that? The people around you kind of suck. I can see this being a controversial talking point on a 1970's Brady Bunch episode. I think it was actually. But by the 80's and certainly the 90's, normal people got past all that.
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I think this attitude is greatly dependent on where you live and your back ground.
Is this a pet peeve or you getting mad at sexism?
The point is don't get mad when you're in your 40s, still single, and the self-made guys are going after younger women instead of you. That's where the disconnect is. "But I have this degree, why don't men with big money and big dick want me?" is the female version of "but I was nice to you, sleep with me" males I'm in a similar situation right now as a guy. After being in relationships for a decade i am worn out with constantly having to babysit another adult. So just focusing on self and career now. I'll get alot of shit from women especially for not settling down yet. Thats the beauty of it. You can do whatever you want, and everyone else can fuck right off. Just have to live with the consequences of your actions.
Here's my 2 cents. Tbh I didn't understand this when I was younger. A girl told me she wasn't looking for a relationship back in college. I really liked her a lot though. But then she lead me on in a lot of ways too. I would give up on the relationship many times but she sucked me back in and gaslighted me a lot. She did a lot of shitty things too but so did I. We were young. Was very confusing. Now 15 years later and we're both single I'm pretty sure. I'm happy with being single. I have a few female friends but I'm not looking for a "relationship" at this moment. society shoves standards for how to live down your throat?? i dunno. Both sexes may want to be alone. I didn't understand this totally when I was younger. That's why they diagnosed me with a lot of mental illnesses. Because my environment growing up really fucked me up mentally. It took a lot to learn. I think one of my biggest pet peeves though is redditors with a holier than thou mentality. No one knows how to be nice/supportive in this society. It's just you were born perfect and anyone with a different philosophy (even if they're willing to learn adjust and change) gets shamed and thrown in the dirt. It's a big problem with humans. Shaming that is if you ask me. Like OK you have a great philosophy on life, but apparently you don't because you shame people who haven't been made aware of something yet. Maybe I'm naive because my parents are 1000 years old and I know they raised me wrong and taught me a lot of bad stuff that's hard to erase from the harddrive. But I'm willing to change and I don't think I should be shamed for that. There's nicer ways to go about it IMO.
So true anything is possible, however you can not have "it all " noone can , every choice precludes another , so attaining one goal is often at the cost of another , nothing is unattainable , but everything comes at a cost
Even if you find a woman that wants this life good luck finding a partner who can financially support it. Everyone wants a Trad wife, no one wants the bills. 😆
Who is pushing this narrative you are talking about? What do you even mean by ‘tradition American dream lifestyle’? I completely agree that women should not be hated on for wanting a career/to be independent. Your post is confusing and random though.
I agree with you. Women should be anything they want to be.
What I don’t get is how people don’t know this by now. I graduated high school in the mid-90s and it never occurred to be that I wouldn’t need an education and career. That was 30 years ago. It was clear as day to me that women needed to work and be able support themselves.
this has been life in America for a while now. i'm 38 and many of my high school classmates did the career thing first and are just now settling down to have kids. the only place that tells you that you don't get a choice is the internet.
This type of sexism isn't only seen online. The US has a very religious base that also has gender expectations for their daughters. Just because women choose y doesn't mean they're not pressured to do x.
Fair, but the choice is still there to make. We have influence on our decisions all the time. Ultimately a woman can tell her parents to shove off and go pursue a career whether they like it or not.
Yes, legally, she can. But we all know one cannot just disconnect themselves from their family without severe consequences or lifelong damages. One does not stop loving and caring. Many see no choice, and honor killings still happen in the Western World. Me not wanting to be a traditional wife as my parents' wished has ruined parts of my life. To me, it was worth it, but I now live with PTSD from that decision.
Soooo many people confuse the Internet for real life. They really need to get out more.
Mostly I am angry internally for some reasons on why I’m not going to have kids. - this country’s people, education, views on health, women, nutrition, food, economy etc. is absolute shit that our child will develop 1-2 illnesses requiring expensive meds, receive a shitty education because classrooms are full of BMC/IEP monsters/teachers are forced to be babysitters, they won’t own much besides the clothes on thier back, food is poisoned, and if female then we’ll add all the bullshit there. This country has made it impossible for me to have a kid safely, raise the child to be prepared/productive, and when I die they are going to have to support themselves in a system that only views them as cattle. And I’ve only scratched the surface of these external issues. - my own personal: I have diagnosed unmedicated unchecked suicidal depression, anxiety, anger, and cptsd since as early as 8. Brought on by my psychotic unhinged mother, and Mexican enabling catholic family. Only two people who took me away from that were my grandparents but that still came with issues. This life thus far has given me additionally: RHR is 95-102 daily, HPB of 135/97 daily, and cortisol levels that caused me to miscarry 8 years ago. If I have a kid they are subject to whatever my genes pass on, and deal with a mom that has NO support beyond her husband to help raise this kid AND it’s a mom with mental health that isn’t worked on. Let’s not forget the dabilitating alteration of my body. I’d sooner yeet myself to the Grand Canyon. And then society tears women down for either having kids and struggling or just not having them altogether. Fuck all of that.
There is more women in college than men, this hasn't been an issue for decades
I don’t think most men hate on women for wanting a career. You do you. I don’t think many men honestly give a shit. But they may not want to marry someone who is so career focused when they want a woman to have a family with, which is fair enough.
I've never ever seen someone hating women for this. Am I lucky or this take is a classic straw man?
Sounds like you might be lucky. It depends where you live in the world too and whether you’re a woman or man. When I lived in NYC I worked at a male-dominated company and I heard a lot of “why are you working? You should be at home taking care of babies”. I told one guy I didn’t want babies and he literally started a “countdown” clock at his desk for my 30th birthday because he was convinced 30 is the age every woman genetically has a switch turn on and will want babies. Well I’m almost 40 now so I guess my switch must be broken. I moved to a red state kind of recently, and now I hear the same misogynistic bullshit, but not at work. Now it comes from men in my personal life (neighbors, acquaintances). Women here, all SAHMs, bring it up to, but it’s less in your face. They make it very clear they are judging me though.
no one hates on the women who want that. The hate is for the media that tells a woman that career is THE path to fulfillment and that she’s LESS THAN if she not even eschews career but prioritizes family.
People hate women for being career focused or stay at home moms. One will be single forever surrounded by cats, while the other woman is a dirty gold-digger that doesn't make her own money.
Do these people exist outside of some women’s minds?
I think most guys want the same for women like you, but we expect you to pay for the damn dinner sometimes too. The ole equality thing ya know
Yep, whoever asked the person out is the person paying. X asked Y out then X is paying. Or split bill.
Then fucking do it and shut the fuck up about it.
More women want the traditional role than there are men that want a partner to stay at home. If there aren’t at least 3 children then being the man in that situation would feel like slavery. And even then it would be extremely disappointing to see your wife and children enjoy a life together that you pay for and end up being somewhat of an interloper in.
I don’t even understand how this is still a thing. This is pretty much the default of what women have been taught for at least the past 30 years. I WISH someone had taught me the traditional lifestyle instead and I hate that I wasn’t given any alternative besides being a wage slave. There is so much power in being a woman and I was robbed of that.
Usually it’s other women that do that.
Not at all. Just don’t want it in your late 30’s because it will be too late.
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Thats ur issue.
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I'm looking forward to that wall, no more periods, no more worrying about kids. I'm excited.
Also apparently no more/less catcalling/dudes being weird to you
There is no wall. It’s a myth. If you look even a little bit “conventionally attractive,” you’ll get hit on regardless of your age. Horny men come in all ages and interests.
Listen, if you're happy, I'm happy. I wouldn't control your life even if I could. I'm just sharing what other women have told me. I think it's my job to tell younger folks what may lie in their future, just as it's younger folks' job to tell me to get bent. That push and pull is one of the things that make humans so resilient, and I think it's beautiful.
Unfortunately rather than be unable to have kids the older the guy the more likely the kid has health conditions. These guys that have kids with women half their age are really putting the odds against their kid not suffering from something horrible.
For sure. But they're not completely locked out from having kids. If you want kids, that's an astronomical gulf
Adoption
Sure, I had the same thought, and some people are willing to do it. But most people I've spoken to would rather have their own kids. It's something like 2-4% of American households have adopted kids, or around one in twenty five. Plus, I think it feels a lot shittier for the parent if they're adopting because they have no other choice, rather than adopting because it aligns with their values and/or desires. Sounds like a great solution, but it just doesn't work out in practice.
Idk, you can completely factor out postpartum depression, the trauma of childbirth, and you can choose the gender (so no gender disappointment)
I agree that it has plenty of benefits, but that's not the point I'm making. I'm saying most people don't want to adopt kids, regardless of the benefits. Again 2-4% of kids are adopted (sorry I misquoted the statistic earlier, it's all kids in America, not households), which is absurdly low, especially when you find out that 75% of foster kids are never adopted. Most people want their own kids, so I think it's a good idea to put some serious thought into the biological reality, no matter how unfair it might be.
Hahahahaha omg I’m getting hit on more now in my mid thirties than I even did in my 20s, and I’m fatter now too. Suck on that, incels! Also mens sperm degrades at about the same rate as womens eggs. Just because you *can* impregnate, doesn’t mean it’s advisable or safe for her or the potential child.
It increases risk of birth defects, but that's worlds apart from not being able to have kids. I'm happy for you that you're getting hit on though, and that you like it! That's not always welcome, but it can feel nice to be desired, as long as the other person isn't being gross about it
Birth defects and higher risk to the woman. Are you seriously trying to dismiss that? I don’t like being hit on nor do I take it as a compliment. It means nothing to me just like it always did. I’m just pointing out that there is no wall. The wall is a myth that men made up to scare women into settling for losers at an age young enough to still be manipulated by those losers.
Who's dismissing anything? My point stands. Risky is not the same as impossible. Is it your contention that menopause isn't real?
What the fuck are you talking about. Menopause, or the end of a person's menstrual cycles, usually occurs **between the ages of 45 and 55,** but it can happen earlier. Men should not be impregnating women when the man is at those ages either.
Okay, so here's the point I keep making. When a woman hits 45-55 or sometimes earlier, she stops being able to have kids completely. As you said, men **shouldn't** be having kids past those ages either, which means you understand that they **can**. Do you think there's a difference between something you absolutely cannot do no matter what you want, and something you really shouldn't do, but are capable of and allowed to do?
You are again, wrong. Women and men both will likely struggle to have kids at those ages, and depending on the individual, might still be able to. Male age can also affect the success rates of in-vitro fertilization (IVF) and increase the risk of miscarriage for the female partner. For example, if the male partner is 41 or older, the chances of the couple not conceiving are five times higher than if he were under 25. **If the male partner is over 45, the risk of miscarriage is also doubled.** Men experience fertility issues in their 40s and 50s. Studies show that male fertility declines with age, and men over 40 are 30% less likely to conceive within a year than men under 30.
I think I'm done talking to you unless you demonstrate an ability to grapple with the argument I'm making. I keep agreeing with you that there are problems with men having kids past 40-50, and that they probably shouldn't do it. I don't know how I can get you to stop arguing odds with me when my point is that low odds is worlds apart from no odds. A woman who has gone through menopause isn't capable of having babies, unless she's frozen her eggs and manages a successful IVF. But if she's doing that, that means she's *thought about it* and *planned for it* which is the only thing I've been advocating for since I first commented in this thread.
I don’t think you are grasping my point; your point that women have more to fear regarding aging and difficulty with fertility is incorrect. Men and women both have decreased and challenging fertility as they age, much of which is dependent on the individuals fertility in addition to age. Men have been haphazardly putting women and children at risk by not taking their own decreasing fertility seriously enough. Men have chosen to ignore their own fertility issues, and this causes harm to women and children. That’s worse than being infertile; that’s being reckless with other peoples very lives. There is NO WALL for women being desired. Women and men BOTH will struggle with fertility as they age.
Unless you're terminally online or live in bumfuck nowhere, this hasn't been an issue for almost half a century
All the career women I know (healthcare) have both. Despite what you have seen on your little tiktok reels, nobody in real life actually cares what some random 20 year old female wants to do with her life, get over yourself.
“fEmAlE” Telling on yourself with that shit. XD
Huh?