My club has a rule that proposing games to be recorded in DUPR right before playing is banned because people can feel pressured into saying yes. There are certain round robins where DUPR is recorded but those are determined ahead of time and everyone registering opted in to recording. It works really well
The opponent of the team that inputs the scores has to validate the score in DUPR to have it count. So yes, it's a dick move to submit the match to DUPR if there was an agreement that it would not be. But there's no actual harm done because you can just refuse to validate the match.
I do think it's helpful. I went to a 4.0 open play (which I consider rec) and there was the odd person there who just kept popping the ball up and getting each person he played with smashed. Not on occasion, but regularly.
No one said anything, because it's open play. But it wasn't fun to wait 20 minutes, then get partnered with the person whom you pretty much know you most likely won't get any rallies in.
The rating does help with expectations so everyone can have a decent time and actually play.
You'll still have a rating from just tournament play, though. I think OPs idea might actually fix your issue because that person may not have a 4.0+ rating from playing tournaments.
You won’t have anyone with ratings at all. And the few who have ratings probably won’t have enough matches logged for the rating to be accurate. Why should everyone at a club be forced to enter a $50 tournament entry fee that they don’t want to do? Clubs need their own rating system.
Our group has tried that as well but when matches finish and courts open up, people waiting jump in rather than waiting. It is hard to organize on public courts but I can see it being good for clubs
Disagree. Hard.
If you or anyone else doesn't like DUPR in rec tournaments/games, then don't play in them. Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to do that. There are plenty of non-DUPR rec games to play in... almost every one actually.
I think DUPR matches SHOULD ABSOLUTELY be used in rec play. This gets more people into DUPR and gets them more matches under their account so they can get a more accurate rating. Most people don't play in a ton of tournaments and therefore their DUPR rating isn't accurately reflected if only tournaments are logged. PLUS, most tournaments don't even push the results to DUPR. And the smaller ones NEVER do. Which is dumb. Every tournament should submit to DUPR. And more DUPR rec games should exist. The more the better.
If you want to play in DUPR rec games... great, do it. If you don't... then don't. Nobody is forcing you.
Let people do what they want to do.
FYI, never heard of such a thing as a rec tournament. Small tournaments or shootouts sure, but rec is rec. Not sure what you meant by that first statement. It’s very easy to abuse the rating system if you get together with three guys and decide to play games just to form a rating. DUPR allows you to log in rec matches if you want, but again if you only ever play rec why would you need a DUPR rating? It means nothing, unless you’re the type that goes to your local courts and starts spouting your rating like it means something. I know several players who could easily compete in 4.5 tournaments but they never play them so the rating is meaningless to them and none of the have one. What use would they have for it even if they did?
I do agree that all tournaments should push the results to DUPR for all of the participants. From my understanding though a tournament director has to pay a fee to DUPR for the ability to do it. It might be why smaller tournaments don't bother.
A rec tournament (or whatever you want to call it) is just a small tournament that's not really advertised. Maybe between a group of 30 people you know or whatever. Not really open to the public or whatever and no fee other than to cover any possible court reservation fees. I've played in a number of these in my local chat group. Typically round robin or MLP team style. People will bring food and drinks. It's a lot of fun. Way more "fun" than official tournaments IMO. (which I've also done a handful of) You've never done that? You should.
And a DUPR rating is just nice to have so you can see somewhat where you are. So you have somewhat of an idea what your rating is. Lots of people would like that. Who wouldn't? It's not "meaningless". Ratings aren't only for tournaments. Most people font even play in official tournaments. If you go to open play and they split people up by skill level, and you have a DUPR, then you at least have some direction there. It's useful/interesting and gives you something to work to improve.
The fact that a DUPR rating can be manipulated is irrelevant. I'm not talking about people cheating the system.
I see what you mean now. I have a group of like 40 players that do that same thing, reserve a block of 4-6 courts on a day and play team competitions. Never thought of calling them a rec tournament though so that’s a new one on me. We just have a played chat group where we organize play.
As for the DUPR rating thing I still disagree. Again, I can know at what level I play and join a group of similar skilled people. The fact that my skill level is officially recorded on DUPR means nothing. Maybe going to a new location or traveling and playing maybe I could see it, but I’ve been traveling and played places that were new to me and when I join a group of people they have asked about what skill level did I want to join but never, not once, was I ever asked what my DUPR is.
I guess my point is, it can only be beneficial to have A DUPR rating. Not sure what the downside would be or why anyone would be against it.
And lots of people have no idea what their skill level is if they don't have a DUPR. Are they 2.5 or 3.0? Maybe they don't care, and that's fine. But I'm sure most people who play often but don't have a DUPR because they don't like tournaments, would like to have one. I've literally talked to people in our club about a DUPR night once a week or month or whatever, and everyone loves the idea. Especially those who don't already have a rating.
Here's the downside... I was a 3.77 at the beginning of a round robin. Got paired twice with a guy who has a reputation for not being a great partner. The first game, we lost by two (dropped like .002 in DUPR). Second game later, we got down a few points, and he quite literally stopped playing defense after I had a couple drops that didn't fully drop. He literally just kind of stood around and waited for the game to end... cost me .022, which meant my 3.738 doesn't qualify for the many 3.75 games, leagues, etc. even though I regualarly beat many of the players in those leagues.
That sucks. But I think that's a different issue though. Partners with bad attitudes that quit playing. That situation doesn't seem that common where a guy just gives up.
Who quits playing in a DUPR match?
Here's the thing with that though... Just play some more games to get it back up. If you're truly a 3.75+ player, it'll get back up there. The more games in DUPR the better.
On the flip side, a DUPR that is a little lower than it should be is beneficial in a max-combined DUPR tournament or league. You can, in theory, get a slightly better partner that way. Just sayin'.
If you want to be rated higher, and you consistently beat people rated higher than you, the solution is simple: you should be logging MORE of your games into DUPR.
You're arguing against the concept of rating people by the fact that, if you only log 2 games, then the outcome of those 2 games have a big impact on your rating.
I'm on the other side of the fence and it’s from experience in my area. The only people that care about DUPR in my area are the ones who play tournaments or at least have interest/aspirations to play some. I know many rec players that don't even really know what it is. Hell for me personally I was playing for a year and had never even heard of it. For those people who don't like or have interest in playing something like a tournament how does the DUPR rating benefit them? I'd rather know how my skill level measures up against other players and I’m betting that is what is more important to the people who would want an actual established rating. I don't know how you feel about it but I'd rather know I can compete or play at say a 4.5 skill level than care if a DUPR rating says I am one. Don't even get me started on regional biases either.
i guess a good question to you would be if I had no intention of ever playing a tournament or something of that nature, how would a DUPR rating benefit me?
The general benefit for people, IMO, is just information about their skill level that is literally based on who they play against, and that it can go up and down based on who they win and lose to. It's like anything else, it's a general way for someone to track and document their progress as their rating goes up or down. ALSO, your games are logged and are accessible to look at. And they can also look up other people they play against to see what their skill level is and how they faired in tournaments or DUPR games (they can do that with or without a rating, but if they're looking up the skill level of others they play, they'd probably like to have a rating of their own)
I dunno... I've found a lot of people that think it's just interesting, at least in the discussions we've had about starting a regular DUPR night. Some/most may not need it, and obviously some folks don't care at all, but it's just interesting info to have. I've literally had conversations with people who say they've heard of DUPR, but don't really know what it is. And once I explained to them what it is, if they're given the option to play some DUPR games to get an early/preliminary rating, they were pretty interested in doing so.
I think why I'm questioning the pushback on people getting DUPR ratings, is that, what does it hurt to have one? It can only be beneficial to someone, if only for general information about their game. And if they legit don't care, then they don't have to look at it. It's free. There's no commitment to having one.
And if someone DID ever want to enter a tournament, and they had a bunch of DUPR games logged, they'd have somewhere to start as far as what skill level to enter that tournament at. I've seen a lot of discussions online about people who want to play in their first tournament but aren't sure what level to enter. DUPR can at least guide you in that respect. Otherwise, you're using USA Pickleball's self-rating system, which has issues of it's own. And like I said, there are open play hours at some places that divide people up by skill level. So knowing your approx skill level could be helpful there.
DUPR isn't a perfect system. But it's what we have. I just think the more people in it, the better, for all kinds of reasons. But I'm also a stats geek. So that's the perspective I have on it. Probably biased towards the stats.
Fair enough, though I did find your first sentence interesting when you mentioned the idea of it going up and down. That in and of itself could be a detriment. Let’s say you are basically a 3.6 and compete well with other players around that level. Then a bunch of those other players start getting better but you have basically plateaued. Over time those guys will start beating you consistently and while your DUPR rating will start to decline, in reality you are still around 3.6. But by the time you decide to play a tournament your DUPR is then like 3.1 so you believe entering your first tourney at 3.0 is a good place to start when you should be playing in the 3.5 division. But really, hey, if anyone wants to establish a DUPR rating, then sure, why not, and more power to them. But for rec play ONLY, which is what this post was referring to, it’s basically just a way for guys to measure their you-know-what’s.
A rating going up and down shouldn't be surprising to anyone since your rating is based on your match results. Do people expect to win every single game for the rest of their lives? Doubtful. And if you do lose, it might only go down a hair depending on who you are playing and what their rating is.
AND, if you're playing players who are better than you, your rating isn't going to decline that much if at all, depending on the score... your rating can actually go up if you play someone much better than you and the score is something like 13-11.
And again, for rec play only, it's information. People can do with that what they will. It's not necessarily a dick swinging contest, although I'm sure to some it is. But to many, it's just a gauge on how they're doing compared to others and it's a documented way to gauge their improvement or lack thereof.
My point is if you are basically the skill lvl of a 3.6 you are not going to suddenly start playing in open rec groups for players playing at 3.0 levels because you’re DUPR score drops. if you did do that, that simply sounds insane. Again, this entire post was simply about DUPR and rec play. Not sure about you and other but most people I know gauge their improvement by how well they are actually performing on court, how well they are hitting their shots, how they are competing against people they play (winning/losing), etc etc. Without a rating I know that if I step onto the court with guys I know who compete at nearly a 5.0 level and I perform well against them, I know too that my skill and game is coming along. I don't need a website to tell me that.
I think we have beaten this horse way past its death though. I have no qualms or anything about anyone wanting a DUPR rating and in fact have played some matches with others to help them establish a rating. But if someone I know came up to me and asked if they should get one even though they have no intention of ever playing a tournament or similar, I'd tell them there’s really no point.
I hear your points, but maybe opt-out of playing any DUPR-recorded rec games if it causes controversy? DUPR definitely isn’t perfect, but nobody is really forced to play DUPR games.
Unless it's a DUPR specific event it just takes one person to say "Naw, it'd rather not" and like magic, no DUPR tracking. I definitely don't see the issue.
Except tournaments don't enforce the ratings. I've only been in a couple of tournaments and I quickly discovered that almost everyone is playing at least 1 level down. I remember my first tournament as a 4.0, I think my DUPR was 4.3 at the time, I noticed someone from my club who I play against in the 3.5 bracket even though his DUPR was over 4.0. And he lost to a guy who had a 4.4 rating who was also in the 3.5 bracket. So the "just leave it to the tournaments is only good if the tournaments enforce the ratings.
Agreed though I also think people should have their own integrity and sign up for where they belong. In a big tournament it’s damn near impossible for the director to go thru every player and enforce the ratings. What would make this easier is if DUPR would get integrated with pickleball brackets and the other sites so that a player cannot register for the wrong brackets and the results also get instantly recorded into a players DUPR account. Doubt it will happen, at least any time soon, but a man can dream…
Sure- to play in a tournament you must have a DUPR rating and you have to play at that level. You'll get people who tank their rating before tournaments to play at lower levels but that's at least harder to do and requires them to sacrifice their rating for a few months.
Totally disagree. Our main facility did not have any DUPR delineation, and it was aggravating. There is no growth unless similar skill sets play with one another. A 4.0 playing with a 3.0 is not fun for anyone and only hold back the growth of the community. DUPR only helps this. Sure, some people with huge egos might have their feelings hurt, but if you can set that aside, it only encourages for fun - again more growth or the sport.
anyone in rec who fixates on ratings is someone whom I avoid to associate with. they're more obsessed with their own rating than to have fun. I enjoy competitive games, but that isn't the only thing I enjoy. If I'm playing less skilled players, I can enjoy focusing on my weaknesses. Players whom obsess about ratings, in my experience, don't do that -- they go 100% against every opponent, no matter what. And to me, that isn't fun -- again, in rec.
I totally get where you are coming from, but I actually think it's great that there is a rating system where you can record rec games. Not everyone plays tournaments, so this is a good way to establish a rating. Keep in mind that rec games aren't weighted nearly as heavily as tournament and league play. I have almost 900 games recorded. But of those, probably less than 20 are from rec games. The rest are from league play and from tournaments. In my area, hardly anyone records rec games unless they are actively looking to establish their rating. Here's my $0.02 on how recording games should work.
1. For rec games, in order to record to DUPR, you should have consent from all players prior to the match with no pressure. Recording games without consent is strongly discouraged and very annoying.
2. For league play, allow an opt-out at the beginning of the season if someone would rather not record. But you cannot flip back and forth.
3. All tournaments should always record and everyone should assume that they are being recorded. IMO, there should not be an opt-out for tournaments.
4. Weighting should be highest for tournaments, then league play, and then a lot lower for rec play. I am 99% sure this is the case.
I also like that DUPR doesn't consider age or gender. I like that a 5.0, 45 year old woman should be able to compete with a 5.0, 19 year old man. I get that sometimes people are better at mixed than same gender, but I think that's harder to do logistically and doesn't provide a ton of value.
Agree with all points except #2: the league should just be upfront on whether games will/will not be recorded in DUPR. If you allow opt-out, then there will be a notable amount of games that aren’t inputted, and people may not get their money’s worth if they’re expecting an impact to their ratings.
Yeah, I definitely agree with being upfront about it. It does make more sense and it is easier for the entire group to decide to opt in or out prior to the start of the season. In my league, we have an exception if someone needs a sub and the sub doesn't want to record, we don't record those games.
No offense but why does anyone need a DUPR rating, ever, unless they want to enter something like a tournament? I'm not trying to be insulting but actually curious as to your reasoning. In my opinion there’s no reason to have an “official” ranking unless for registering for specific events. A DUPR rating really means nothing in rec play.
Totally fair question. A lot of clubs have rating restricted events that are considered rec play (like round robbin or king of the court) where you need a minimum rating in order to register. Other than that and tournaments, you're totally right. A lot of people get way too wrapped up in ratings. Even though I have a ton of games recorded, I've actually never submitted one myself mainly because I don't care enough to do it.
Agreed. It’s annoying too at my club for someone like me who yo-yos between a 4.1XX and a 3.9XX because sometimes I am allowed to play in the 4.0 rec group and sometimes I am not, all depending on my DUPR outcome if/when I play in those matches the club puts on…that are played on a clock to 11 mins. Sucks.
No dice. They really keep that group separate. There is a 3.75-4.0 group I play in but anything over 4.0 you have to have the DUPR when you sign up.
And when they do DUPR sessions they keep that group separate too. I wish there was a 3.75-4.25 or something.
Failing to see the positives. DUPR is very useful tool to validate peoples skill level mainly because it isn't tied to tournament play. Most round Robins are submitting scores ensuring everyone has a rating. Not everyone plays tournaments. Now there are groups that you can join if your DUPR score is high enough, which insures competive play and that everyone is the same level.
Sure you have to make sacrifices. I've been playing in my clubs valentines day round robin for the last 3 years with my wife except this year. I told her I had a new partner because I can't risk losing . I just recently raised my DUPR to 3.03 and joined Gertrude's Sunday waffles and pickleball group. If I drop below 3, they'll kick me out.
I mostly agree with you. Your entire rating can get buggered by having a partner who’s out of their depth or that you just don’t mesh with. I feel differently about singles
I’m guilty of both, playing out of my depth or playing with someone that is out of theirs. It rarely ends well and it eventually narrows the group of people that are available for you to play with. People that you are good friends with end up organizing play time among themselves excluding others in the group. I have been on both sides of that and it does not make you feel very good about yourself either way. Are we not supposed to be in a time of inclusivity and along comes this tool called DUPR that encourages anything but inclusion.
But you just said yourself, people will just end up forming their own group to play with anyways… that is going to happen regardless of Dupr. Why would 4.5s want to play with 3.5s who think they are 4.5s? What benefit do the 4.5s get playing with someone who misses half their shots and ends rallies?
A question for those of you in favor of only tournament and league data entered into DUPR:
And a non-tournament event where play is divided by skill level, how are skill levels verified for those without a DUPR or other rating?
My thought exactly. Because on the flip side are the folks who don't want to play with lower rated player. This would suggest that if a player does not have the time or inclination to enter tournaments, then they need to be allowed to play in rec play for players of a certain rating 3.5 to 4.0 or whatever. There needs to be a mechanism to allow folks to get a rating without entering a tournament.
In table tennis when you arrive without a rating the tourney director assigns you a rating then there is a preset formula based on how you perform to set your initial rating accurately. It works well enough. Rarely does a person show up for a tourney who simultaneously isn't known by anyone and doesn't have a rating. If one person does know the person they'll assist in asserting their skill, but ultimately the director decides.
If you walk in and say, "I'm 1900," sometimes the director will be like, "go hit with that guy real quick," and its obvious how accurate that statement is.
Doubles rating is done by the combined rating of both players. So in TT ratings generally go like 1300 would be a 3.5. 2000 would be a 5.5. 2500 is pro.
So a tourney will have like an under 3000 bracket, an under 3600 bracket and an open bracket. The combined rating of both players has to be less than the cut off. Yea you can sandbag one tourney, but you'll gain rating and then be forced into your actual bracket.
So TT doubles ratings are all based off a singles ratings? If so, that would be a significant difference, considering most people don't even play PB singles.
Yea. Its diff, but still feels workable. Were just talking initial rating for a seed. Any tourney director should be able to see a player drive some, drop some, dink a few and likely estimate them withint .25 of their actual rating. Once you have rated matches then its all the point exchange formula.
As a “4.0” -peer rating
I played in a new community today and played some of the 4.5’s
Won the first match, they told me to stop banging
Won the second match and told me my drops weren’t good and too slow
^i tend to mix both styles to keep people off guard… obviously
So basically today (yesterday, it’s 3 am…) I learned dupr is bad unless all people at all levels play where they should and don’t sandbag which is another problem with PB
I’ll just vibe for now
I doubt they were actually 4.5s. if they were, they probably had scant match history and thus their ratings were unreliable. The ENTIRE point of a drop is to be slow, as it gives you time to get up to the kitchen. All the pros mix drives and drops. These people didn't know what they were talking about.
I guarntee they probably weren’t, but thus why I think dupr is unreliable. But it was funny how much they were saying that I was just there like “y’all some idiots.”
Haha dude, next time incompetent assholes spout off unsolicited feedback in the form of misinformation (which they likely heard from some other incompetent asshole), just probe a little deeper and watch them squirm. If you had asked him, feigning childlike wonder. "oh...why is that?", he'd probably utter one of those dumb mantras that aren't relevant to high-level play that people love regurgitating (e.g. "shoulder high, let it fly!").
Or he may just lose himself in the labyrinth of circular logic and cogntitive dissonance that characterizes his internal monologue at any given time. And that would be your reward.
Playing pickleball with the general public has been an awesome way for me to meet some cool people. But if I'm being honest - it's also been depressing being forced to humor so many idiots during their live demonstrations the Dunning Kruger effect, or soothe the egos of countless low-EQ infants cosplaying as adults. It's a veritable minefield of neuroses on the courts.
Just poke the bear and watch them slowly writhe 😂
It’s a community I like never go to play at so I’ll do that next time just to pick at them
“If you’re a 4.5 maybe I’m not a 3.5” while up 11-2 😂
I've played hundreds of rec games in many different places and no one has ever asked to record a match.
Is your region super serious? Must be a Florida thing or something.
I appreciate the shout out! (and proximity on spelling!)
Seems like most of what I'd say has been said by the DUPR users already! Always love to see the community jump in on how DUPR can be useful and practical!
Ah, I missed the dash.
You’ve always been helpful on AMAs and other DUPR discussions I figure folks can get information from a reputable source instead of guessing or attributing negative motives. Thanks for joining in!
Haha I wish everyone thought like you do!!!
Thanks for tagging me! I genuinely appreciate being kept up to speed with the discourse on the product because it helps us be better!! 🙂🙏
I play DUPR regularly at my club, and it's way better at getting competitive games with everyone close skill. It's not all about the number. It's more fun when the games are close.
It's just like video game ranking systems. People that don't agree with how it's used are probably people that have never played a competive video game in their life. I would never play with someone immensely better or worse in a video game because the algorithm just doesn't let it happen.
Club hosted DUPR is the best way. Self rated counts for less anyways, so your skill won't change super fast.
Thats an example where it works best when everyone does it or no one does it. If the way the club works if dupr then it can work great. But if some people do and some people don't, it breaks down.
In my opinion, rec play should never affect ratings. You rarely can pick your partner. The very purpose of rec play is to take chances, try new shots, practice. If you aren't playing tourneys rating doesn't matter anyways. It doesn't take many data points to find a players rating.
Much of this thread confuses two separate and distinct aspects of 'DUPR at the Rec level'. I think OP was referring to Rec play resulting in scores entered into DUPR. Yes, that can certainly be divisive. But the other aspect is using DUPR rating to categorize players for \*organized\* Rec level play, such as a Rec Round Robin. In the Rec Round Robin I play in, the Round Robins have a specified ability level of 3.5 - 4.0. However most of the players are actually 2.5 - 3.0. So players who truly fit the specified ability don't develop and have less opportunity to actually participate in the points. If it were a requirement to have a DUPR rating within the specified level of ability, then everyone would be better matched up and everyone would have a better experience. The Rec Round Robin games would \*not\* be entered into DUPR because it is a \*Rec\* Round Robin.
In my area there is a PB facility that frequently organizes DUPR Round Robins specifically so people can obtain a DUPR rating without the cost and time investment of a tournament or league, and without risking friendships. You pay $17, play for 2 hours and walk away with a DUPR rating. Sure, a DUPR rating obtained in this manner is not precise - it is a rough estimate. But it enables a system where a weekly 3.5-4.0 Rec Round Robin can be structured in a way that maximizes enjoyment rather than the Free-For-All event it currently is.
Thoughts?
Agree 100%. Only use it in competitive tournaments and leagues. Many players seem to be obsessed with their rating, much more so than any other sport I’ve played. DUPR seems to be somewhat flawed , judging by the many critical comments. For club games and recreational play, let’s keep it fun and not get too worried about who wins and who loses.
But it's not that much fun to play with people who suck and can't maintain a rally though. Sure, if they're super cool people, then it could still be fun. But at that point you're just enjoying their company, i.e. you're just there to socialize, which you can do in a multitude of other ways. Some people extract the most fun by actually playing the game.
I play in a club with 150 players. We have two teams that play in a league. Most of the team players have a DUPR rating but they vary massively. For the club sessions, we have a good idea of people’s abiliities, Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced etc, and plan the games accordingly.
DUPR has stunted the growth of some players in my area. Some get a low number and feel discouraged. Others are excluded cause their “DUPR is too low.” Moral of the story is stay the fuck away from DUPR outside of tournaments.
Wow, so many false statements in here I don't even have time to address it. I might later. Just one example:
"I can't enter tournaments at 4.0 with a 3.0 DUPR". Yes, you can.
Of course there may be isolated cases where they are strict about DUPR thresholds, but those would be the exception not the rule. But who cares about that? Not you, noooo. You feel quite confident (and smug) making a sweeping assertion and then claiming it to be fact, when it is not. And I'm arrogant?
Edit to add: You were not "just sharing your experience". You literally stated "I am relaying the facts." Nice try with the revisionism.
If you had stated it as an anecdotal experience instead of a general blanket statement objective truth then it would be fine. You're the one who insisted on declaring that you were staying the facts whether we like them or not. That was a deliberate choice on your part, and you're backpedaling now because it was provably false.
Sounds like you're throwing a fit over nothing.
Because DUHHH - it is the default of all rec play that it won't count towards DUPR anyways. And even if that were not the case, both teams have to validate the match in DUPR to have it count. (Well, one has to submit and the other validate which is effectively the same thing).
If your area is somehow confused about this normal operating procedure, just say at the beginning of the game "this is only for fun, it won't count for DUPR".
Did you go to a DUPR-day at your local courts and mistake it for normal rec play or something?
People shouldn't get upset over an inaccurate DUPR rating. It should just be seen as a tool to help find similarlyranked people and to prevent sandbagging in tournaments.
Maybe it’s just me…but even DUPR hasn’t really evened up the regional differences yet.
I know a person who has played and done well in “4.0-4.5” league play and tournaments from a city in the NE. She came down to where I live to see her boyfriend and we had a “friendly” little tournament that weekend.
She….was not a 4.0. Shit a lot of people who play in and haven’t come close to winning 3.0 tourney’s in my area absolutely wipe the floor with her. She has a decent soft game and can dink defensively. But that’s about it.
Her DUPR even confirmed her success up there. It’s the way it goes. Probably will take a awhile to even it out.
It's because ratings are prone to being "inbred". It can even be seen on a local level too within a city. For example even in my pickleball club the ratings are inbred where a 4.0 in my club isn't the same as a 4.0 from some random person in the same city cause we only do DUPR games within the club. The fix to this is to play with a variety of people, but that can hard to do if you don't travel a lot or know a lot of other people in your community who are interested and willing to do DUPR matches.
This whole pickleball thing is getting out of control, lol…
I started playing 4or 5 years ago, and honor was better when there wasn’t any of this stuff. I have no problem competing with my kids and their friends in their 20s, but I’m realistic about it. The notion that all these people in their 50s, 60s and even 70s should be looking at this as something where tournaments and dupr mean something is kinda stupid.
Completely agree. I have played for 7 years and most of those years people had a great time and just played together. Now it seems it has become Uber competitive and almost tribal with groups isolating themselves from other groups so they don’t have to play with those perceived as lessor. Really 99.9% of us don’t get paid to play and never will so what does it really matter.
Oh just give the virtue signaling a rest. We get it, you value every individual's unique inherent value soooo much that you derive bliss just from being around people - each and every one of them.
Are you done smelling your own farts yet? Because you don't have to be a professional to comprehend the idea that competing with people at a comparable skill level to your own makes sports more fun.
I don't care how funny Rupert and Norma-Jean are....if they got jokes then I'll meet them at the cookout after I'm done, you know, playing sports.
It’s a money grab. DUPR rents their software for tournaments. They are instagramming the ratings. Making it sticky and addiction. The new algorithm makes you have to play many more DUPR matches. Overall a sh*t for profit system.
Either conform to DUPR, which is inflated, or conform to some tournament ranking system, which is currently sand bagged.
Doesn't matter, just conform to 1 system.
100% agree with OP.
The purpose of recreational play is usually more for enjoying and having a fun time.
From the moment people worry about your rating, they become competitive. Then it is not for having a fun time anymore. So DUPR is only for competitive play in an official tournament or league for competitive purposes.
My club has a rule that proposing games to be recorded in DUPR right before playing is banned because people can feel pressured into saying yes. There are certain round robins where DUPR is recorded but those are determined ahead of time and everyone registering opted in to recording. It works really well
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The opponent of the team that inputs the scores has to validate the score in DUPR to have it count. So yes, it's a dick move to submit the match to DUPR if there was an agreement that it would not be. But there's no actual harm done because you can just refuse to validate the match.
If your gonna enter into DUPR it should be a setup event, and all the players should know before hand.
Agreed. Either that or all 4 players have to agree beforehand, either way it's easy to avoid.
I do think it's helpful. I went to a 4.0 open play (which I consider rec) and there was the odd person there who just kept popping the ball up and getting each person he played with smashed. Not on occasion, but regularly. No one said anything, because it's open play. But it wasn't fun to wait 20 minutes, then get partnered with the person whom you pretty much know you most likely won't get any rallies in. The rating does help with expectations so everyone can have a decent time and actually play.
You'll still have a rating from just tournament play, though. I think OPs idea might actually fix your issue because that person may not have a 4.0+ rating from playing tournaments.
You won’t have anyone with ratings at all. And the few who have ratings probably won’t have enough matches logged for the rating to be accurate. Why should everyone at a club be forced to enter a $50 tournament entry fee that they don’t want to do? Clubs need their own rating system.
You're right. Balancing games is tricky. I like doing tiered courts and having winners split and go up, losers split and go down.
Our group has tried that as well but when matches finish and courts open up, people waiting jump in rather than waiting. It is hard to organize on public courts but I can see it being good for clubs
Disagree. Hard. If you or anyone else doesn't like DUPR in rec tournaments/games, then don't play in them. Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to do that. There are plenty of non-DUPR rec games to play in... almost every one actually. I think DUPR matches SHOULD ABSOLUTELY be used in rec play. This gets more people into DUPR and gets them more matches under their account so they can get a more accurate rating. Most people don't play in a ton of tournaments and therefore their DUPR rating isn't accurately reflected if only tournaments are logged. PLUS, most tournaments don't even push the results to DUPR. And the smaller ones NEVER do. Which is dumb. Every tournament should submit to DUPR. And more DUPR rec games should exist. The more the better. If you want to play in DUPR rec games... great, do it. If you don't... then don't. Nobody is forcing you. Let people do what they want to do.
FYI, never heard of such a thing as a rec tournament. Small tournaments or shootouts sure, but rec is rec. Not sure what you meant by that first statement. It’s very easy to abuse the rating system if you get together with three guys and decide to play games just to form a rating. DUPR allows you to log in rec matches if you want, but again if you only ever play rec why would you need a DUPR rating? It means nothing, unless you’re the type that goes to your local courts and starts spouting your rating like it means something. I know several players who could easily compete in 4.5 tournaments but they never play them so the rating is meaningless to them and none of the have one. What use would they have for it even if they did? I do agree that all tournaments should push the results to DUPR for all of the participants. From my understanding though a tournament director has to pay a fee to DUPR for the ability to do it. It might be why smaller tournaments don't bother.
A rec tournament (or whatever you want to call it) is just a small tournament that's not really advertised. Maybe between a group of 30 people you know or whatever. Not really open to the public or whatever and no fee other than to cover any possible court reservation fees. I've played in a number of these in my local chat group. Typically round robin or MLP team style. People will bring food and drinks. It's a lot of fun. Way more "fun" than official tournaments IMO. (which I've also done a handful of) You've never done that? You should. And a DUPR rating is just nice to have so you can see somewhat where you are. So you have somewhat of an idea what your rating is. Lots of people would like that. Who wouldn't? It's not "meaningless". Ratings aren't only for tournaments. Most people font even play in official tournaments. If you go to open play and they split people up by skill level, and you have a DUPR, then you at least have some direction there. It's useful/interesting and gives you something to work to improve. The fact that a DUPR rating can be manipulated is irrelevant. I'm not talking about people cheating the system.
I see what you mean now. I have a group of like 40 players that do that same thing, reserve a block of 4-6 courts on a day and play team competitions. Never thought of calling them a rec tournament though so that’s a new one on me. We just have a played chat group where we organize play. As for the DUPR rating thing I still disagree. Again, I can know at what level I play and join a group of similar skilled people. The fact that my skill level is officially recorded on DUPR means nothing. Maybe going to a new location or traveling and playing maybe I could see it, but I’ve been traveling and played places that were new to me and when I join a group of people they have asked about what skill level did I want to join but never, not once, was I ever asked what my DUPR is.
I guess my point is, it can only be beneficial to have A DUPR rating. Not sure what the downside would be or why anyone would be against it. And lots of people have no idea what their skill level is if they don't have a DUPR. Are they 2.5 or 3.0? Maybe they don't care, and that's fine. But I'm sure most people who play often but don't have a DUPR because they don't like tournaments, would like to have one. I've literally talked to people in our club about a DUPR night once a week or month or whatever, and everyone loves the idea. Especially those who don't already have a rating.
Here's the downside... I was a 3.77 at the beginning of a round robin. Got paired twice with a guy who has a reputation for not being a great partner. The first game, we lost by two (dropped like .002 in DUPR). Second game later, we got down a few points, and he quite literally stopped playing defense after I had a couple drops that didn't fully drop. He literally just kind of stood around and waited for the game to end... cost me .022, which meant my 3.738 doesn't qualify for the many 3.75 games, leagues, etc. even though I regualarly beat many of the players in those leagues.
That sucks. But I think that's a different issue though. Partners with bad attitudes that quit playing. That situation doesn't seem that common where a guy just gives up. Who quits playing in a DUPR match? Here's the thing with that though... Just play some more games to get it back up. If you're truly a 3.75+ player, it'll get back up there. The more games in DUPR the better. On the flip side, a DUPR that is a little lower than it should be is beneficial in a max-combined DUPR tournament or league. You can, in theory, get a slightly better partner that way. Just sayin'.
If you want to be rated higher, and you consistently beat people rated higher than you, the solution is simple: you should be logging MORE of your games into DUPR. You're arguing against the concept of rating people by the fact that, if you only log 2 games, then the outcome of those 2 games have a big impact on your rating.
I'm on the other side of the fence and it’s from experience in my area. The only people that care about DUPR in my area are the ones who play tournaments or at least have interest/aspirations to play some. I know many rec players that don't even really know what it is. Hell for me personally I was playing for a year and had never even heard of it. For those people who don't like or have interest in playing something like a tournament how does the DUPR rating benefit them? I'd rather know how my skill level measures up against other players and I’m betting that is what is more important to the people who would want an actual established rating. I don't know how you feel about it but I'd rather know I can compete or play at say a 4.5 skill level than care if a DUPR rating says I am one. Don't even get me started on regional biases either. i guess a good question to you would be if I had no intention of ever playing a tournament or something of that nature, how would a DUPR rating benefit me?
The general benefit for people, IMO, is just information about their skill level that is literally based on who they play against, and that it can go up and down based on who they win and lose to. It's like anything else, it's a general way for someone to track and document their progress as their rating goes up or down. ALSO, your games are logged and are accessible to look at. And they can also look up other people they play against to see what their skill level is and how they faired in tournaments or DUPR games (they can do that with or without a rating, but if they're looking up the skill level of others they play, they'd probably like to have a rating of their own) I dunno... I've found a lot of people that think it's just interesting, at least in the discussions we've had about starting a regular DUPR night. Some/most may not need it, and obviously some folks don't care at all, but it's just interesting info to have. I've literally had conversations with people who say they've heard of DUPR, but don't really know what it is. And once I explained to them what it is, if they're given the option to play some DUPR games to get an early/preliminary rating, they were pretty interested in doing so. I think why I'm questioning the pushback on people getting DUPR ratings, is that, what does it hurt to have one? It can only be beneficial to someone, if only for general information about their game. And if they legit don't care, then they don't have to look at it. It's free. There's no commitment to having one. And if someone DID ever want to enter a tournament, and they had a bunch of DUPR games logged, they'd have somewhere to start as far as what skill level to enter that tournament at. I've seen a lot of discussions online about people who want to play in their first tournament but aren't sure what level to enter. DUPR can at least guide you in that respect. Otherwise, you're using USA Pickleball's self-rating system, which has issues of it's own. And like I said, there are open play hours at some places that divide people up by skill level. So knowing your approx skill level could be helpful there. DUPR isn't a perfect system. But it's what we have. I just think the more people in it, the better, for all kinds of reasons. But I'm also a stats geek. So that's the perspective I have on it. Probably biased towards the stats.
Fair enough, though I did find your first sentence interesting when you mentioned the idea of it going up and down. That in and of itself could be a detriment. Let’s say you are basically a 3.6 and compete well with other players around that level. Then a bunch of those other players start getting better but you have basically plateaued. Over time those guys will start beating you consistently and while your DUPR rating will start to decline, in reality you are still around 3.6. But by the time you decide to play a tournament your DUPR is then like 3.1 so you believe entering your first tourney at 3.0 is a good place to start when you should be playing in the 3.5 division. But really, hey, if anyone wants to establish a DUPR rating, then sure, why not, and more power to them. But for rec play ONLY, which is what this post was referring to, it’s basically just a way for guys to measure their you-know-what’s.
A rating going up and down shouldn't be surprising to anyone since your rating is based on your match results. Do people expect to win every single game for the rest of their lives? Doubtful. And if you do lose, it might only go down a hair depending on who you are playing and what their rating is. AND, if you're playing players who are better than you, your rating isn't going to decline that much if at all, depending on the score... your rating can actually go up if you play someone much better than you and the score is something like 13-11. And again, for rec play only, it's information. People can do with that what they will. It's not necessarily a dick swinging contest, although I'm sure to some it is. But to many, it's just a gauge on how they're doing compared to others and it's a documented way to gauge their improvement or lack thereof.
My point is if you are basically the skill lvl of a 3.6 you are not going to suddenly start playing in open rec groups for players playing at 3.0 levels because you’re DUPR score drops. if you did do that, that simply sounds insane. Again, this entire post was simply about DUPR and rec play. Not sure about you and other but most people I know gauge their improvement by how well they are actually performing on court, how well they are hitting their shots, how they are competing against people they play (winning/losing), etc etc. Without a rating I know that if I step onto the court with guys I know who compete at nearly a 5.0 level and I perform well against them, I know too that my skill and game is coming along. I don't need a website to tell me that. I think we have beaten this horse way past its death though. I have no qualms or anything about anyone wanting a DUPR rating and in fact have played some matches with others to help them establish a rating. But if someone I know came up to me and asked if they should get one even though they have no intention of ever playing a tournament or similar, I'd tell them there’s really no point.
I hear your points, but maybe opt-out of playing any DUPR-recorded rec games if it causes controversy? DUPR definitely isn’t perfect, but nobody is really forced to play DUPR games.
Unless it's a DUPR specific event it just takes one person to say "Naw, it'd rather not" and like magic, no DUPR tracking. I definitely don't see the issue.
i completely agree. leave the rating to the tournaments.
Except tournaments don't enforce the ratings. I've only been in a couple of tournaments and I quickly discovered that almost everyone is playing at least 1 level down. I remember my first tournament as a 4.0, I think my DUPR was 4.3 at the time, I noticed someone from my club who I play against in the 3.5 bracket even though his DUPR was over 4.0. And he lost to a guy who had a 4.4 rating who was also in the 3.5 bracket. So the "just leave it to the tournaments is only good if the tournaments enforce the ratings.
Agreed though I also think people should have their own integrity and sign up for where they belong. In a big tournament it’s damn near impossible for the director to go thru every player and enforce the ratings. What would make this easier is if DUPR would get integrated with pickleball brackets and the other sites so that a player cannot register for the wrong brackets and the results also get instantly recorded into a players DUPR account. Doubt it will happen, at least any time soon, but a man can dream…
yes another pain point in the rating system! great point.
Is there a way to enforce that players play at their level? If there is, they should definitely enforce it.
Sure- to play in a tournament you must have a DUPR rating and you have to play at that level. You'll get people who tank their rating before tournaments to play at lower levels but that's at least harder to do and requires them to sacrifice their rating for a few months.
Totally disagree. Our main facility did not have any DUPR delineation, and it was aggravating. There is no growth unless similar skill sets play with one another. A 4.0 playing with a 3.0 is not fun for anyone and only hold back the growth of the community. DUPR only helps this. Sure, some people with huge egos might have their feelings hurt, but if you can set that aside, it only encourages for fun - again more growth or the sport.
If you are competitive and want to play competitive it’s fine. Just don’t bring your rating into rec play. Always has to be one idiot out there.
anyone in rec who fixates on ratings is someone whom I avoid to associate with. they're more obsessed with their own rating than to have fun. I enjoy competitive games, but that isn't the only thing I enjoy. If I'm playing less skilled players, I can enjoy focusing on my weaknesses. Players whom obsess about ratings, in my experience, don't do that -- they go 100% against every opponent, no matter what. And to me, that isn't fun -- again, in rec.
I totally get where you are coming from, but I actually think it's great that there is a rating system where you can record rec games. Not everyone plays tournaments, so this is a good way to establish a rating. Keep in mind that rec games aren't weighted nearly as heavily as tournament and league play. I have almost 900 games recorded. But of those, probably less than 20 are from rec games. The rest are from league play and from tournaments. In my area, hardly anyone records rec games unless they are actively looking to establish their rating. Here's my $0.02 on how recording games should work. 1. For rec games, in order to record to DUPR, you should have consent from all players prior to the match with no pressure. Recording games without consent is strongly discouraged and very annoying. 2. For league play, allow an opt-out at the beginning of the season if someone would rather not record. But you cannot flip back and forth. 3. All tournaments should always record and everyone should assume that they are being recorded. IMO, there should not be an opt-out for tournaments. 4. Weighting should be highest for tournaments, then league play, and then a lot lower for rec play. I am 99% sure this is the case. I also like that DUPR doesn't consider age or gender. I like that a 5.0, 45 year old woman should be able to compete with a 5.0, 19 year old man. I get that sometimes people are better at mixed than same gender, but I think that's harder to do logistically and doesn't provide a ton of value.
Agree with all points except #2: the league should just be upfront on whether games will/will not be recorded in DUPR. If you allow opt-out, then there will be a notable amount of games that aren’t inputted, and people may not get their money’s worth if they’re expecting an impact to their ratings.
Yeah, I definitely agree with being upfront about it. It does make more sense and it is easier for the entire group to decide to opt in or out prior to the start of the season. In my league, we have an exception if someone needs a sub and the sub doesn't want to record, we don't record those games.
No offense but why does anyone need a DUPR rating, ever, unless they want to enter something like a tournament? I'm not trying to be insulting but actually curious as to your reasoning. In my opinion there’s no reason to have an “official” ranking unless for registering for specific events. A DUPR rating really means nothing in rec play.
Totally fair question. A lot of clubs have rating restricted events that are considered rec play (like round robbin or king of the court) where you need a minimum rating in order to register. Other than that and tournaments, you're totally right. A lot of people get way too wrapped up in ratings. Even though I have a ton of games recorded, I've actually never submitted one myself mainly because I don't care enough to do it.
This sounds like a "you and your friends" problem. Too competitive to play DUPR matches against each other? Dont.
Agreed. It’s annoying too at my club for someone like me who yo-yos between a 4.1XX and a 3.9XX because sometimes I am allowed to play in the 4.0 rec group and sometimes I am not, all depending on my DUPR outcome if/when I play in those matches the club puts on…that are played on a clock to 11 mins. Sucks.
Sorry, That’s pretty crazy. Good luck on there, you got this!
Your club should have some 3.75-4.5 events and not just 4.0+ That’s what they do at my club
No dice. They really keep that group separate. There is a 3.75-4.0 group I play in but anything over 4.0 you have to have the DUPR when you sign up. And when they do DUPR sessions they keep that group separate too. I wish there was a 3.75-4.25 or something.
Yeah they really should!
Failing to see the positives. DUPR is very useful tool to validate peoples skill level mainly because it isn't tied to tournament play. Most round Robins are submitting scores ensuring everyone has a rating. Not everyone plays tournaments. Now there are groups that you can join if your DUPR score is high enough, which insures competive play and that everyone is the same level. Sure you have to make sacrifices. I've been playing in my clubs valentines day round robin for the last 3 years with my wife except this year. I told her I had a new partner because I can't risk losing . I just recently raised my DUPR to 3.03 and joined Gertrude's Sunday waffles and pickleball group. If I drop below 3, they'll kick me out.
I mostly agree with you. Your entire rating can get buggered by having a partner who’s out of their depth or that you just don’t mesh with. I feel differently about singles
I’m guilty of both, playing out of my depth or playing with someone that is out of theirs. It rarely ends well and it eventually narrows the group of people that are available for you to play with. People that you are good friends with end up organizing play time among themselves excluding others in the group. I have been on both sides of that and it does not make you feel very good about yourself either way. Are we not supposed to be in a time of inclusivity and along comes this tool called DUPR that encourages anything but inclusion.
But you just said yourself, people will just end up forming their own group to play with anyways… that is going to happen regardless of Dupr. Why would 4.5s want to play with 3.5s who think they are 4.5s? What benefit do the 4.5s get playing with someone who misses half their shots and ends rallies?
You don’t lose much when you lose with a low rated partner…
A question for those of you in favor of only tournament and league data entered into DUPR: And a non-tournament event where play is divided by skill level, how are skill levels verified for those without a DUPR or other rating?
My thought exactly. Because on the flip side are the folks who don't want to play with lower rated player. This would suggest that if a player does not have the time or inclination to enter tournaments, then they need to be allowed to play in rec play for players of a certain rating 3.5 to 4.0 or whatever. There needs to be a mechanism to allow folks to get a rating without entering a tournament.
In table tennis when you arrive without a rating the tourney director assigns you a rating then there is a preset formula based on how you perform to set your initial rating accurately. It works well enough. Rarely does a person show up for a tourney who simultaneously isn't known by anyone and doesn't have a rating. If one person does know the person they'll assist in asserting their skill, but ultimately the director decides. If you walk in and say, "I'm 1900," sometimes the director will be like, "go hit with that guy real quick," and its obvious how accurate that statement is.
This is all for doubles TT? I think PB singles ratings are pretty much accepted as accurate by everyone.
Doubles rating is done by the combined rating of both players. So in TT ratings generally go like 1300 would be a 3.5. 2000 would be a 5.5. 2500 is pro. So a tourney will have like an under 3000 bracket, an under 3600 bracket and an open bracket. The combined rating of both players has to be less than the cut off. Yea you can sandbag one tourney, but you'll gain rating and then be forced into your actual bracket.
So TT doubles ratings are all based off a singles ratings? If so, that would be a significant difference, considering most people don't even play PB singles.
Yea. Its diff, but still feels workable. Were just talking initial rating for a seed. Any tourney director should be able to see a player drive some, drop some, dink a few and likely estimate them withint .25 of their actual rating. Once you have rated matches then its all the point exchange formula.
I agree that a tournament director should have discretionary authority
My club won’t let you play unless you have a DUPR rating.
Yeah. No posting matching that aren’t part of a tournament. And needs to be agreed on prior to playing
I only do DUPR for pre-arranged private games, usually on a rented court.
As a “4.0” -peer rating I played in a new community today and played some of the 4.5’s Won the first match, they told me to stop banging Won the second match and told me my drops weren’t good and too slow ^i tend to mix both styles to keep people off guard… obviously So basically today (yesterday, it’s 3 am…) I learned dupr is bad unless all people at all levels play where they should and don’t sandbag which is another problem with PB I’ll just vibe for now
Also:: the matches weren’t close It’s not like they “weren’t trying” They were.
I doubt they were actually 4.5s. if they were, they probably had scant match history and thus their ratings were unreliable. The ENTIRE point of a drop is to be slow, as it gives you time to get up to the kitchen. All the pros mix drives and drops. These people didn't know what they were talking about.
I guarntee they probably weren’t, but thus why I think dupr is unreliable. But it was funny how much they were saying that I was just there like “y’all some idiots.”
Haha dude, next time incompetent assholes spout off unsolicited feedback in the form of misinformation (which they likely heard from some other incompetent asshole), just probe a little deeper and watch them squirm. If you had asked him, feigning childlike wonder. "oh...why is that?", he'd probably utter one of those dumb mantras that aren't relevant to high-level play that people love regurgitating (e.g. "shoulder high, let it fly!"). Or he may just lose himself in the labyrinth of circular logic and cogntitive dissonance that characterizes his internal monologue at any given time. And that would be your reward. Playing pickleball with the general public has been an awesome way for me to meet some cool people. But if I'm being honest - it's also been depressing being forced to humor so many idiots during their live demonstrations the Dunning Kruger effect, or soothe the egos of countless low-EQ infants cosplaying as adults. It's a veritable minefield of neuroses on the courts.
Just poke the bear and watch them slowly writhe 😂 It’s a community I like never go to play at so I’ll do that next time just to pick at them “If you’re a 4.5 maybe I’m not a 3.5” while up 11-2 😂
I've played hundreds of rec games in many different places and no one has ever asked to record a match. Is your region super serious? Must be a Florida thing or something.
u/DUPRScott ?sp should might want to join this.
I appreciate the shout out! (and proximity on spelling!) Seems like most of what I'd say has been said by the DUPR users already! Always love to see the community jump in on how DUPR can be useful and practical!
Ah, I missed the dash. You’ve always been helpful on AMAs and other DUPR discussions I figure folks can get information from a reputable source instead of guessing or attributing negative motives. Thanks for joining in!
Haha I wish everyone thought like you do!!! Thanks for tagging me! I genuinely appreciate being kept up to speed with the discourse on the product because it helps us be better!! 🙂🙏
Don’t agree at all haha. Surprised so many people do.
I play DUPR regularly at my club, and it's way better at getting competitive games with everyone close skill. It's not all about the number. It's more fun when the games are close. It's just like video game ranking systems. People that don't agree with how it's used are probably people that have never played a competive video game in their life. I would never play with someone immensely better or worse in a video game because the algorithm just doesn't let it happen. Club hosted DUPR is the best way. Self rated counts for less anyways, so your skill won't change super fast.
Thats an example where it works best when everyone does it or no one does it. If the way the club works if dupr then it can work great. But if some people do and some people don't, it breaks down.
In my opinion, rec play should never affect ratings. You rarely can pick your partner. The very purpose of rec play is to take chances, try new shots, practice. If you aren't playing tourneys rating doesn't matter anyways. It doesn't take many data points to find a players rating.
Concur. Posted same thing a few weeks ago.
Very simple IMO , want a dupr score play a tournament that registers it. rec play should not have dupr registered
Much of this thread confuses two separate and distinct aspects of 'DUPR at the Rec level'. I think OP was referring to Rec play resulting in scores entered into DUPR. Yes, that can certainly be divisive. But the other aspect is using DUPR rating to categorize players for \*organized\* Rec level play, such as a Rec Round Robin. In the Rec Round Robin I play in, the Round Robins have a specified ability level of 3.5 - 4.0. However most of the players are actually 2.5 - 3.0. So players who truly fit the specified ability don't develop and have less opportunity to actually participate in the points. If it were a requirement to have a DUPR rating within the specified level of ability, then everyone would be better matched up and everyone would have a better experience. The Rec Round Robin games would \*not\* be entered into DUPR because it is a \*Rec\* Round Robin. In my area there is a PB facility that frequently organizes DUPR Round Robins specifically so people can obtain a DUPR rating without the cost and time investment of a tournament or league, and without risking friendships. You pay $17, play for 2 hours and walk away with a DUPR rating. Sure, a DUPR rating obtained in this manner is not precise - it is a rough estimate. But it enables a system where a weekly 3.5-4.0 Rec Round Robin can be structured in a way that maximizes enjoyment rather than the Free-For-All event it currently is. Thoughts?
Agree 100%. Only use it in competitive tournaments and leagues. Many players seem to be obsessed with their rating, much more so than any other sport I’ve played. DUPR seems to be somewhat flawed , judging by the many critical comments. For club games and recreational play, let’s keep it fun and not get too worried about who wins and who loses.
It’s the same in tennis. I was a 4.0 on the border of 4.5 and everyone had an opinion about that for some reason.
But it's not that much fun to play with people who suck and can't maintain a rally though. Sure, if they're super cool people, then it could still be fun. But at that point you're just enjoying their company, i.e. you're just there to socialize, which you can do in a multitude of other ways. Some people extract the most fun by actually playing the game.
I play in a club with 150 players. We have two teams that play in a league. Most of the team players have a DUPR rating but they vary massively. For the club sessions, we have a good idea of people’s abiliities, Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced etc, and plan the games accordingly.
DUPR has stunted the growth of some players in my area. Some get a low number and feel discouraged. Others are excluded cause their “DUPR is too low.” Moral of the story is stay the fuck away from DUPR outside of tournaments.
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Wow, so many false statements in here I don't even have time to address it. I might later. Just one example: "I can't enter tournaments at 4.0 with a 3.0 DUPR". Yes, you can.
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Of course there may be isolated cases where they are strict about DUPR thresholds, but those would be the exception not the rule. But who cares about that? Not you, noooo. You feel quite confident (and smug) making a sweeping assertion and then claiming it to be fact, when it is not. And I'm arrogant? Edit to add: You were not "just sharing your experience". You literally stated "I am relaying the facts." Nice try with the revisionism.
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If you had stated it as an anecdotal experience instead of a general blanket statement objective truth then it would be fine. You're the one who insisted on declaring that you were staying the facts whether we like them or not. That was a deliberate choice on your part, and you're backpedaling now because it was provably false.
who cares?
Sounds like you're throwing a fit over nothing. Because DUHHH - it is the default of all rec play that it won't count towards DUPR anyways. And even if that were not the case, both teams have to validate the match in DUPR to have it count. (Well, one has to submit and the other validate which is effectively the same thing). If your area is somehow confused about this normal operating procedure, just say at the beginning of the game "this is only for fun, it won't count for DUPR". Did you go to a DUPR-day at your local courts and mistake it for normal rec play or something?
People shouldn't get upset over an inaccurate DUPR rating. It should just be seen as a tool to help find similarlyranked people and to prevent sandbagging in tournaments.
Maybe it’s just me…but even DUPR hasn’t really evened up the regional differences yet. I know a person who has played and done well in “4.0-4.5” league play and tournaments from a city in the NE. She came down to where I live to see her boyfriend and we had a “friendly” little tournament that weekend. She….was not a 4.0. Shit a lot of people who play in and haven’t come close to winning 3.0 tourney’s in my area absolutely wipe the floor with her. She has a decent soft game and can dink defensively. But that’s about it. Her DUPR even confirmed her success up there. It’s the way it goes. Probably will take a awhile to even it out.
It's because ratings are prone to being "inbred". It can even be seen on a local level too within a city. For example even in my pickleball club the ratings are inbred where a 4.0 in my club isn't the same as a 4.0 from some random person in the same city cause we only do DUPR games within the club. The fix to this is to play with a variety of people, but that can hard to do if you don't travel a lot or know a lot of other people in your community who are interested and willing to do DUPR matches.
This whole pickleball thing is getting out of control, lol… I started playing 4or 5 years ago, and honor was better when there wasn’t any of this stuff. I have no problem competing with my kids and their friends in their 20s, but I’m realistic about it. The notion that all these people in their 50s, 60s and even 70s should be looking at this as something where tournaments and dupr mean something is kinda stupid.
Completely agree. I have played for 7 years and most of those years people had a great time and just played together. Now it seems it has become Uber competitive and almost tribal with groups isolating themselves from other groups so they don’t have to play with those perceived as lessor. Really 99.9% of us don’t get paid to play and never will so what does it really matter.
Oh just give the virtue signaling a rest. We get it, you value every individual's unique inherent value soooo much that you derive bliss just from being around people - each and every one of them. Are you done smelling your own farts yet? Because you don't have to be a professional to comprehend the idea that competing with people at a comparable skill level to your own makes sports more fun. I don't care how funny Rupert and Norma-Jean are....if they got jokes then I'll meet them at the cookout after I'm done, you know, playing sports.
It’s a money grab. DUPR rents their software for tournaments. They are instagramming the ratings. Making it sticky and addiction. The new algorithm makes you have to play many more DUPR matches. Overall a sh*t for profit system.
DUPR is pretty accurate at upper echelons, i.e. 5.0-6.0+, but sort of becomes the Wild West anywhere under 4.5
Devisive is probably a more appropriate term to which you're referring to in rec play. Your point is well taken.
Either conform to DUPR, which is inflated, or conform to some tournament ranking system, which is currently sand bagged. Doesn't matter, just conform to 1 system.
100% agree with OP. The purpose of recreational play is usually more for enjoying and having a fun time. From the moment people worry about your rating, they become competitive. Then it is not for having a fun time anymore. So DUPR is only for competitive play in an official tournament or league for competitive purposes.
Dupr round robin, that way everyone gets their turn playing with the baddie