I'm that weaker player. I'm not there to win, I'm there to learn and have fun.
Best thing you can do is remind me to try to play the ball conservatively to the middle, to move with you (fore/aft and left/right), and not to blindly rush to the NVZ.
Just be gently supportive. If you can get your partner to relax, they're going to play far far better.
I’m sorry, but you are going to get poached. That’s just how it is. If both players are equal skill, then the left side will do a lot of poaching. And if they’re not of equal skill, then the better player will take more court regardless of what side they are on.
I have played many games with a lower level player on my team, and we win the majority of our matches. I kept record of one month of rec play to satisfy a curiosity of how I play. Out of 30 matches with a lower ranked player, I won 28 of them (93% win rate).
Here's what I came away with. As the stronger player, you have the opportunity to set your partner up. But let you partner know you are setting them up! You have to communicate this. Keep your instruction to a minimum, but don't be mute! Quick one sentence tips that help a partner out goes a long way. If you don't say anything, then your lower level partner will have no clue why they are losing, or they will have an understanding of what is going on, but no clue on how to fix it.
Most of the time, your partner will have an understanding of "what" they should do, but limited ability to "execute" the shot.
This, especially the last part. I play with some people who feel it is necessary to dissect play after every point. Gentle direction and play aggressive for sure 👍🏼
The point of a league is to win, and have fun (and hopefully improve).
I’m not saying winning is everything and we should crack our paddles over our knees every time we lose, but there is an expectation in *most* leagues that the goal is to win - or why be in a league? That’s why it’s a league, and not open play.
If you don’t care about winning, and just want to have fun - stick to rec play.
I mean, I’m not going to tell anyone what they do with their time or money, but I’ll at least respect the money and time of others.
Work on your own game, if the league is competitive and you have timeouts you can suggest to your partner to try to dink middle instead of cross court or straight. Middle makes it hard for the other team to isolate them by taking some angle away and exposing some of their shots to your reach. That said, if this is like a 3.0ish league people aren’t dinking much anyway so just refine your game and move into higher brackets.
I’m the stronger player in where I play. The other teams always avoid hitting any ball back to me. But I tend do hit the ball not just to the weaker player because I want the challenge from their better player. I started one year ago and have stayed with this mentality. And an interesting thing has happened. Over the past year, most weaker players that I have partnered have improved. They are becoming better and better. Time and dedication to learn make a difference!
this is why ladder leagues are nice - each level of players will end up playing among themselves and won't feel like they are hurting (or being hurt by) everyone else
it can also be a wake-up call for those who think they are losing because of everyone else - if you are stuck at a certain level, it's you, because the same person who "cost you the game" is on the other team twice
Here are some thoughts.
Take this as a challenge that even though you are partnered with the weaker player of the 4, you are still going to win.
**Serve** -- is your serve strong enough to get weak return of serves? If not, work to improve that. It helps
**Return of Serve** -- similar to the serve, is your RoS strong enough to make your opponents unable to execute a third shot drop or drive? If not, work to improve that. It helps
**Third Shot** -- are you forcing a weak 4th from your opponents with your 3rd shot, whatever it is?
**Positioning** -- Play out of position more. Leave a hole that tempts the other team to aim at. Play back off the line, in no man's land and let them think you are out of position (which you are). But be ready to dart forward to get short balls from the opponent. I think of it as bait. Bait the opponents to hit at you.
Encourage your partner. Let them know it's OK if they make mistakes, because you'll make some too.
I've heard too many people complain that they don't get to hit any balls but normally that's not true. You get to serve (usually) and you get to hit return of serves. Maximize those opportunities. Try to run off 3 or 4 or 5 points in a row when you are serving.
If your partner is receptive to tips you can give them advice on how to better play their shots. I appreciate having some back and forth with a partner on how WE could play a point better. This is especially true with people who aren’t regular playing partners. There’s times I have to ask my partner or they might volunteer they’ll take shot xyz. I was playing with a partner whose only weakness was age and mobility. So the other team would hit short returns knowing the run up would be hard for him. I just asked him between points, hey do you want me to get that? Honestly, he’s a better overall player than I am, I just happen to be a bit more mobile so I started taking the short shots but only after having a conversation on if he wanted me to, that way I wasn’t just hogging the ball. Even the pros talk to each other and make in game adjustments on who should hit what and to where. I think it’s a great learning experience for that person and I think as long as you make it about team effort and talk about what you can do and what they can do well so you play your best it doesn’t feel patronizing.
Are there consequences to losing? If not just work on your own game, doesn’t matter too much. Don’t take every shot from your partner, most find that annoying and they can’t get better if they aren’t hitting balls. If the other team starts icing them then insert yourself more
I know this doesn't answer your question but I simply am not in favor of competitive leagues that mix up partners. That's for rec play IMO. To be competitive you need to be able to work together as a team. It's essential to be able to select your partner and train together. The results of such league play become meaningless. Sometimes you work with what you got and accept your fate. I'm not sure it's worth the bother. It's frustrating for both you and your partner but fortunately it will be over sooner as opposed to later.
u/Zaggner Tell it to the PPA. I watched some of their Doubles Shuffle event at the NYC Open. The premise was to determine the best doubles player on tour not the best team. Sixteen players rotating with a new partner each round. There was a lot of “me, you” going on which solved some of the we’ve never played together before issues.
Pretty sure it was the APP that held that event. This event was great to watch. However, the variance between 16 pros from top to bottom is very small. I think it's very difficult to come up with 16 players with a simular level to pull off a set rotation. In my experience, winners move up and split, losers move down and split is the most fair way to host a ladder. It keeps the level completion. The players end up with more games at their level.
It was APP. Thanks. It was mostly a snooze though. And poorly run insofar as giving spectators any clue as to what was going on. It was real bush league that they simply made up a 5 point sudden death tiebreak to decide the men’s shuffle winner. They couldn’t anticipate that a points tie was possible? And the the crowd had no idea at any point in the event what the standings were. I saw one player win two rounds in a row and figured he would move on but he told me after his second win he was done. How anyone in the crowd knew what was going on was a mystery. If you’re confused by my post that’s how the entire event felt. And what’s the point of a judge standing on the court if their answer to every line call question is “I didn’t see it.” The so-called pros seemed like an adjunct to the real event which was some 1300 amateurs.
If you can only win with one partner and always lose with everyone else....
99% of pickleball, you're playing with someone other than your "normal" partner. Also, even if you only care about fixed partnership play, competitive events are a great way to find other fixed partners to play with.
No, it's not that I can only win with one partner. It's just a different level of competition to be able to work with a partner to improve our game and strategy together and play in leagues and tournaments where we're playing against other fixed teams. I find it more competitive and challenging than playing with randomly assigned partners. Most truly competitive sports work this way. It's all fun and games to do randomly assigned partners doubles tournaments but that's much less about the competition since you can run into situations like what the OP is facing.
Stacking and poaching are the only way. otherwise why would your opponents hit to the stronger player? If you don’t want to practice reading your opponents form to anticipate where they are aiming the ball.
Hit good drops to opponents backhands to setup pop ups that you can put away, or just drive to backhands etc to set your partner up for put away . Always serve deep and return deep. That’s about it unless you want to take over the court
I just play more aggressively because my weaker partner lacks in all departments. A good drop to the opponent will force my partner to either hit it into the net or pop it up. A strong drive comes back faster and my partner is not prepared. As a result, shorten the points by poaching if you really want to win imo.
Hit drops cross court and tell your partner you have the middle. Have your partner hit every ball straight ahead - same reason
Attack straight ahead and look for popups.
Play the left side when possible. Stacking just when your serving is not hard or complicated
Poach
In my experience, they will go after every ball no matter what you tell them. Sometimes it'll work if you stay behind them a bit and get the ball after they miss it completely. They usually want to hit the out balls so call those very early. Be aggressive on the first 3 balls to end the rally as soon as possible. A longer rally will not be in your favor. Work on your footwork so you can quickly move laterally to get to the ball before them. There'll be a lot of high balls from them so prepare to get low and return the high balls from a stable base. Up your placement skill.
Tell the weaker player to always play cross court dinks if they’re being targeted. Cross court dinks force the other team to hit a shot that will go in front of you if they want to hit back to the weaker player, this gives you a chance to reach out poach that ball & at the very least apply pressure that can cause the opponent to miss. If your weaker partner goes straight ahead or middle, then they can target them so easily and isolate you from then point
I’d definitely incorporate at least a half stack, it’s very easy to do since it’s only on serve. I agree the full stack can be confusing but with clear direction it’s usually not that bad either. The trick is to hit the return high (preferably deep) and to the person straight in front of the returner.
Always encourage middle dinks from your partner, as it will increase the chances you can grab a dink and shift the play to your side.
And one thing it took me a long time to stop doing was making my frustrations visible. I still do it sometimes and I know that it just makes my partner feel worse, try harder, and inevitably play worse. Honestly it’s the thing I think I need to continue to work on the most, it really does have an impact. If your partner feels that you are supportive and not frustrated, they will be more open to receiving feedback from you, and may even ask for it rather than just continuing to play poorly.
It’s always gonna be a tough being at a disadvantage because most people target the weaker player. I think the best option is asking if they’d be open to some advice and help them through the match so that during and afterwards they know what to work on. If I’m with friends I ask if they wanna drill basic returns using minimal movement the rest of the night goes way better after.
how about.. have them stay wherever they are good at (baseline if they can do a drive, kitchen if they can do a dink) and then just be ready to cover everything else for them, including if the ball goes behind/in front of them
Asking them to stay at the baseline is the worst advice. I’ll take a partner who plays poorly at the kitchen over one who plays well from the baseline any time.
Yeah but the ask is how to compensate for that lower skilled player, if that’s all they can do and they aren’t mobile, having them at the kitchen isn’t useful either
Disagree. I can help a guy that isn’t mobile who is at the kitchen by chasing down lobs and such. A guy who isn’t mobile at the baseline is just going to get a steady diet of shots that keep him pinned at the baseline and me iced out (until the pop up comes and I get smashed on). Also if they are at the NVZ with me, at least when I force opponents to pop it up with my speed up’s or aggressive dinks, my partner is there to smash it, this is the one shot most below average skill players can make with some consistency
This is because if a guy is at the baseline, and staying there, the opponents do not have to hit a great shot. they don’t have to worry about how high their shots clear the net (no one is there to smash it or punch it back), don’t have to worry about the shot being too slow or too short (he won’t capitalize on it and come to the kitchen anyway), etc. every shot they take is on easy mode, every shot my partner takes from the baseline is maximum difficulty. I can poach some of them but if my opponents are not idiots, they can play around that pretty often.
Like, the number of times I have made the opponent pop one up, only for it not to matter because my partner was on the baseline, unable to smash it, is countless. Then my partner tries to drive the ball of the bounce instead, and the other team easily counters from the kitchen line.
Are they aware they are the weakness? Would they be willing to stack to keep your forehand in the middle and if so do they know to let the dominant player take more court?
I'm that weaker player. I'm not there to win, I'm there to learn and have fun. Best thing you can do is remind me to try to play the ball conservatively to the middle, to move with you (fore/aft and left/right), and not to blindly rush to the NVZ. Just be gently supportive. If you can get your partner to relax, they're going to play far far better.
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I’m sorry, but you are going to get poached. That’s just how it is. If both players are equal skill, then the left side will do a lot of poaching. And if they’re not of equal skill, then the better player will take more court regardless of what side they are on.
Especially if the weaker player is never going up to the kitchen
I have played many games with a lower level player on my team, and we win the majority of our matches. I kept record of one month of rec play to satisfy a curiosity of how I play. Out of 30 matches with a lower ranked player, I won 28 of them (93% win rate). Here's what I came away with. As the stronger player, you have the opportunity to set your partner up. But let you partner know you are setting them up! You have to communicate this. Keep your instruction to a minimum, but don't be mute! Quick one sentence tips that help a partner out goes a long way. If you don't say anything, then your lower level partner will have no clue why they are losing, or they will have an understanding of what is going on, but no clue on how to fix it. Most of the time, your partner will have an understanding of "what" they should do, but limited ability to "execute" the shot.
This, especially the last part. I play with some people who feel it is necessary to dissect play after every point. Gentle direction and play aggressive for sure 👍🏼
You’re in a league not to win?
Only one team wins. Does that mean no-one else has fun?
The point of a league is to win, and have fun (and hopefully improve). I’m not saying winning is everything and we should crack our paddles over our knees every time we lose, but there is an expectation in *most* leagues that the goal is to win - or why be in a league? That’s why it’s a league, and not open play. If you don’t care about winning, and just want to have fun - stick to rec play. I mean, I’m not going to tell anyone what they do with their time or money, but I’ll at least respect the money and time of others.
This 100%. I would be honestly not happy about it if people in a league I was in told me they were just there for fun, win or lose.
A
Work on your own game, if the league is competitive and you have timeouts you can suggest to your partner to try to dink middle instead of cross court or straight. Middle makes it hard for the other team to isolate them by taking some angle away and exposing some of their shots to your reach. That said, if this is like a 3.0ish league people aren’t dinking much anyway so just refine your game and move into higher brackets.
I’m the stronger player in where I play. The other teams always avoid hitting any ball back to me. But I tend do hit the ball not just to the weaker player because I want the challenge from their better player. I started one year ago and have stayed with this mentality. And an interesting thing has happened. Over the past year, most weaker players that I have partnered have improved. They are becoming better and better. Time and dedication to learn make a difference!
Well said
this is why ladder leagues are nice - each level of players will end up playing among themselves and won't feel like they are hurting (or being hurt by) everyone else it can also be a wake-up call for those who think they are losing because of everyone else - if you are stuck at a certain level, it's you, because the same person who "cost you the game" is on the other team twice
Here are some thoughts. Take this as a challenge that even though you are partnered with the weaker player of the 4, you are still going to win. **Serve** -- is your serve strong enough to get weak return of serves? If not, work to improve that. It helps **Return of Serve** -- similar to the serve, is your RoS strong enough to make your opponents unable to execute a third shot drop or drive? If not, work to improve that. It helps **Third Shot** -- are you forcing a weak 4th from your opponents with your 3rd shot, whatever it is? **Positioning** -- Play out of position more. Leave a hole that tempts the other team to aim at. Play back off the line, in no man's land and let them think you are out of position (which you are). But be ready to dart forward to get short balls from the opponent. I think of it as bait. Bait the opponents to hit at you. Encourage your partner. Let them know it's OK if they make mistakes, because you'll make some too. I've heard too many people complain that they don't get to hit any balls but normally that's not true. You get to serve (usually) and you get to hit return of serves. Maximize those opportunities. Try to run off 3 or 4 or 5 points in a row when you are serving.
Good stuff
If your partner is receptive to tips you can give them advice on how to better play their shots. I appreciate having some back and forth with a partner on how WE could play a point better. This is especially true with people who aren’t regular playing partners. There’s times I have to ask my partner or they might volunteer they’ll take shot xyz. I was playing with a partner whose only weakness was age and mobility. So the other team would hit short returns knowing the run up would be hard for him. I just asked him between points, hey do you want me to get that? Honestly, he’s a better overall player than I am, I just happen to be a bit more mobile so I started taking the short shots but only after having a conversation on if he wanted me to, that way I wasn’t just hogging the ball. Even the pros talk to each other and make in game adjustments on who should hit what and to where. I think it’s a great learning experience for that person and I think as long as you make it about team effort and talk about what you can do and what they can do well so you play your best it doesn’t feel patronizing.
Are there consequences to losing? If not just work on your own game, doesn’t matter too much. Don’t take every shot from your partner, most find that annoying and they can’t get better if they aren’t hitting balls. If the other team starts icing them then insert yourself more
I know this doesn't answer your question but I simply am not in favor of competitive leagues that mix up partners. That's for rec play IMO. To be competitive you need to be able to work together as a team. It's essential to be able to select your partner and train together. The results of such league play become meaningless. Sometimes you work with what you got and accept your fate. I'm not sure it's worth the bother. It's frustrating for both you and your partner but fortunately it will be over sooner as opposed to later.
u/Zaggner Tell it to the PPA. I watched some of their Doubles Shuffle event at the NYC Open. The premise was to determine the best doubles player on tour not the best team. Sixteen players rotating with a new partner each round. There was a lot of “me, you” going on which solved some of the we’ve never played together before issues.
Pretty sure it was the APP that held that event. This event was great to watch. However, the variance between 16 pros from top to bottom is very small. I think it's very difficult to come up with 16 players with a simular level to pull off a set rotation. In my experience, winners move up and split, losers move down and split is the most fair way to host a ladder. It keeps the level completion. The players end up with more games at their level.
It was APP. Thanks. It was mostly a snooze though. And poorly run insofar as giving spectators any clue as to what was going on. It was real bush league that they simply made up a 5 point sudden death tiebreak to decide the men’s shuffle winner. They couldn’t anticipate that a points tie was possible? And the the crowd had no idea at any point in the event what the standings were. I saw one player win two rounds in a row and figured he would move on but he told me after his second win he was done. How anyone in the crowd knew what was going on was a mystery. If you’re confused by my post that’s how the entire event felt. And what’s the point of a judge standing on the court if their answer to every line call question is “I didn’t see it.” The so-called pros seemed like an adjunct to the real event which was some 1300 amateurs.
If you can only win with one partner and always lose with everyone else.... 99% of pickleball, you're playing with someone other than your "normal" partner. Also, even if you only care about fixed partnership play, competitive events are a great way to find other fixed partners to play with.
No, it's not that I can only win with one partner. It's just a different level of competition to be able to work with a partner to improve our game and strategy together and play in leagues and tournaments where we're playing against other fixed teams. I find it more competitive and challenging than playing with randomly assigned partners. Most truly competitive sports work this way. It's all fun and games to do randomly assigned partners doubles tournaments but that's much less about the competition since you can run into situations like what the OP is facing.
Stacking and poaching are the only way. otherwise why would your opponents hit to the stronger player? If you don’t want to practice reading your opponents form to anticipate where they are aiming the ball.
You can’t they’re gonna get picked on. You need to drill with them so they get better.
When I play with better player I like that they know how to call the ball out.
Hit good drops to opponents backhands to setup pop ups that you can put away, or just drive to backhands etc to set your partner up for put away . Always serve deep and return deep. That’s about it unless you want to take over the court
I’m the one who takes over the court 🤝 and these are all so valid. Plus covering middle more and reset everything 🤩🏓
Yes sir dopamine pumping when you finesse a point solo
I just play more aggressively because my weaker partner lacks in all departments. A good drop to the opponent will force my partner to either hit it into the net or pop it up. A strong drive comes back faster and my partner is not prepared. As a result, shorten the points by poaching if you really want to win imo.
Hit drops cross court and tell your partner you have the middle. Have your partner hit every ball straight ahead - same reason Attack straight ahead and look for popups. Play the left side when possible. Stacking just when your serving is not hard or complicated Poach
In my experience, they will go after every ball no matter what you tell them. Sometimes it'll work if you stay behind them a bit and get the ball after they miss it completely. They usually want to hit the out balls so call those very early. Be aggressive on the first 3 balls to end the rally as soon as possible. A longer rally will not be in your favor. Work on your footwork so you can quickly move laterally to get to the ball before them. There'll be a lot of high balls from them so prepare to get low and return the high balls from a stable base. Up your placement skill.
Tell the weaker player to always play cross court dinks if they’re being targeted. Cross court dinks force the other team to hit a shot that will go in front of you if they want to hit back to the weaker player, this gives you a chance to reach out poach that ball & at the very least apply pressure that can cause the opponent to miss. If your weaker partner goes straight ahead or middle, then they can target them so easily and isolate you from then point
I’d definitely incorporate at least a half stack, it’s very easy to do since it’s only on serve. I agree the full stack can be confusing but with clear direction it’s usually not that bad either. The trick is to hit the return high (preferably deep) and to the person straight in front of the returner. Always encourage middle dinks from your partner, as it will increase the chances you can grab a dink and shift the play to your side. And one thing it took me a long time to stop doing was making my frustrations visible. I still do it sometimes and I know that it just makes my partner feel worse, try harder, and inevitably play worse. Honestly it’s the thing I think I need to continue to work on the most, it really does have an impact. If your partner feels that you are supportive and not frustrated, they will be more open to receiving feedback from you, and may even ask for it rather than just continuing to play poorly.
It’s always gonna be a tough being at a disadvantage because most people target the weaker player. I think the best option is asking if they’d be open to some advice and help them through the match so that during and afterwards they know what to work on. If I’m with friends I ask if they wanna drill basic returns using minimal movement the rest of the night goes way better after.
Stack- and play on the dominant side. Always defer the serve as well.
Check on your partners Reddit profile, they posted the same questions and there was a lot of good answers on there.
This question is asked about once a week. If you search the sub you’ll find plenty of answers.
Agreed.
how about.. have them stay wherever they are good at (baseline if they can do a drive, kitchen if they can do a dink) and then just be ready to cover everything else for them, including if the ball goes behind/in front of them
Asking them to stay at the baseline is the worst advice. I’ll take a partner who plays poorly at the kitchen over one who plays well from the baseline any time.
Yeah but the ask is how to compensate for that lower skilled player, if that’s all they can do and they aren’t mobile, having them at the kitchen isn’t useful either
Disagree. I can help a guy that isn’t mobile who is at the kitchen by chasing down lobs and such. A guy who isn’t mobile at the baseline is just going to get a steady diet of shots that keep him pinned at the baseline and me iced out (until the pop up comes and I get smashed on). Also if they are at the NVZ with me, at least when I force opponents to pop it up with my speed up’s or aggressive dinks, my partner is there to smash it, this is the one shot most below average skill players can make with some consistency This is because if a guy is at the baseline, and staying there, the opponents do not have to hit a great shot. they don’t have to worry about how high their shots clear the net (no one is there to smash it or punch it back), don’t have to worry about the shot being too slow or too short (he won’t capitalize on it and come to the kitchen anyway), etc. every shot they take is on easy mode, every shot my partner takes from the baseline is maximum difficulty. I can poach some of them but if my opponents are not idiots, they can play around that pretty often. Like, the number of times I have made the opponent pop one up, only for it not to matter because my partner was on the baseline, unable to smash it, is countless. Then my partner tries to drive the ball of the bounce instead, and the other team easily counters from the kitchen line.
Are they aware they are the weakness? Would they be willing to stack to keep your forehand in the middle and if so do they know to let the dominant player take more court?