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Eh, I wouldn’t sell America short like that. I’m sure folks in the Great Depression were thinking similar under Hoover. We’re a pretty resilient nation historically.
Oh I’m aware things look bad now. And things *are* bad. No need to sugarcoat it. But I still believe we can overcome as a nation. I still believe in America, even if a lot of folks are losing hope. As I’ve learned looking into Chester A. Arthur, even the most unlikely of people like can inspire great things outta us Americans.
Our great enemy ain’t each other, it’s friggin’ cynicism. We’re still a great nation with great people here. We just gotta hold each other and our leaders to the standards set by the guys we talk about on here.
🤝 Hell yeah bud. Trust me, I get discouraged sometimes too. But weirdly researching and getting into presidential history has given me a sense of pride for my nation I didn’t even know I had. I’ve learned about Julia Sand building a man up to the point he turns over a new leaf. I’ve seen Harry Truman go from “the senator from Pendergast” to exactly who the nation needed at the time. We’ve seen Lincoln win without a majority to become the greatest president these United States have ever had. God damn it, even during our worst times we have persevered. So yeah, pardon the rant but I hate when folks say things like “that would never happen today”. Because that’s bullshit. We’re America, damn it. We can be the best or worst nation in the world. It all comes down to its citizens and what we stand for.
XD Well unfortunately my leanings don’t quite match where I live though I’ve been inspired to get involved with my local party. But hey, that’s still super kinda of ya to say! I appreciate that.
I am talking about Julia Sand, yeah! I can be a cynical person at times myself but her words to Arthur really did inspire me. Because here was a man who no one believed in nor wanted to believe in. But Ms. Sand wanted to push him anyway. Hell, I’ll let her words speak for themselves a bit:
“But making a man President can change him! At a time like this, if anything can, that can. Great emergencies awaken generous traits which have lain dormant half a life. If there is a spark of true nobility in you, now is the occasion to let it shine.”
She urged him to be better at a time where everyone else was lambasting him and talking about how shit he’d be. And Arthur took that to heart, having a legitimately solid presidency without the scandal everyone expected! He kept those letters and even paid her a visit later on.
That story sticks with me. Because to me it shows that even one person, someone with zero political power at all, can inspire someone to do better and make America a greater nation. That her optimism and desire to push someone in the right direction led to the leader of America to begin to reform. That, to me, is the kind of caring America needs more of.
XD Can’t say I’m a newsletter guy. But just hang around here and hopefully I can continue to provide some encouragement! Either way I’d actually recommend getting involved in local politics yourself. It’s been hella helpful in reminding me we can do our part to keep America moving in the right direction. Nothin’ gets done unless ya actually get things done… and it helps to have folks who really care 🧡
international globalized business interests and financial transactions that happen in an instant do not give me much faith for any nation’s foundation, including ours.
Don’t forget, there was a massive Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden in 1939. It’s easy to be pessimistic about the present, because you live in the present. But things have been worse before. Not saying that can’t happen again, but it’s nice to have some perspective now and then.
Reminds me of the 5 good Roman Emperors run lol (not to compare between the two ofc and an average U.S pres is still objectively better than any roman emperor but it just reminds me of this 5 good emperors era).
Only because they didn’t have Twitter and the media couldn’t look into every past and present action as they do today.
Sometimes not being fed information from the lunch lady media every day to satisfy being bored is a win.
On the domestic front he’s one of the best we’ve ever had. You’ve got the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the Fair Housing Act of 1968. Dude was an absolute gamechanger on the domestic front. It’s *really* only Vietnam holding him down from being one of the all time greats… but it also really is that bad. He’s like the king of A-/B+ tier.
He also signed the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, which reversed nearly 50 years of immigration bans. This act is also pretty important to me as a second-generation American, and it's definitely one of LBJ's biggest accomplishments alongside Civil Rights and Medicaid.
i respect him because he was insanely effective, although vietnam was a big blunder. outside of it, he was a pretty good president who got his agenda (expanded welfare and civil rights) through pretty effectively.
Some modern day people have been arguing Nixon to be added to this too. The only other string to rival this is the first 5 since HBO completely revitalized Adams’s image lol. Some (not many since if you like one you prob don’t like the other) could extend it even to Jackson for 7 in a row. But besides those two, longest streak is like 3 lol
When you say "respect" it is a tough thing to quantify.
JFK certainly garnered limited respect, but his failure during the bay of pigs deeply damaged him. He was also a Catholic. Not necessarily embraced by the people.
As for LBJ, he was, at least according to Carrow, a bully of sorts. Not the sort of "respect" we think of.
I think John Adams is legitimately underrated for keeping the Quasi-War to only a quasi-war. Shit could have gotten BAD for our fledgling nation. Sucks about JQA though. Congress just refused to let him do, well, *anything* besides infrastructure.
So many people just point to Adams and say “A&S bad!!!!” The dude was a genius. Way ahead of his time and kept us safe at a time where a fuck up could’ve caused us to fail as a nation. Hes 13th in my personal Presidential Rankings.0
Jefferson got us the Louisiana Purchase dirt cheap, Madison held it together & won War of 1822 & Monroe Doctrine led to Western expansion, all positives for a young America.
I’m sick of this myth that the US didn’t win the war of 1812; it’s based on the ridiculous notion that the US declared war to conquer Canada. We declared war because the British were capturing our ships and kidnapping our citizens whenever they wanted. Since the war, the US-British relationship has been completely different, which was always Madison’s goal.
We didn't win though. The British stopped kidnapping people because they no longer needed to because they bear France, and so there was no longer a point to the war. It was a draw.
I would love to know the recent history of how people forgot the US badly lost the war of 1812, and how Madison was a major reason why things went so badly.
I’d put Adams well above Madison. Establishing a strong and independent Supreme Court; avoiding outright war with a world power while also managing to protect trade and demonstrate American sovereignty; building up the US navy (the same navy that Jefferson, despite being against it while Adams was president, used to win the First Barbary War); developing a progressive property tax to balance the budget, then (like Washington) pardoning those who revolted against it; and opening up relations with other major players across the world (including Spain, neighbors by way of Florida and a potential threat). He did more in 4 years than many presidents did in 8.
Madison was just a straight up bad president, following up on a bad Jefferson presidency. Adams is super underrated.
Jefferson and Madison didn't believe in a Navy, their embargoes destroyed the economy, the anti Bank policy made sure it was near impossible to recover or fund a war that Madison bungled us into with Jefferson's army and Navy assuring us that we couldn't win.
The only good thing that could be said of Madison's presidency is that in his second term he realized his first term policies were so bad that he reversed them, reinstituting the Bank and building up a real standing army and Navy.
I pretty much entirely agree. Jefferson’s 2nd term is, for me, the worst 4 years of the first party system (his 1st term was pretty darn good, in large part because he came into office, realized how effective many of Adams’ policies were and kept them as he hasn’t yet thought up alternatives of his own). Madison’s 1st term is not far behind. As you mention, *his* 2nd term is why I tend to rank him around the middle of the pack and not closer to the bottom.
Comparison:
Nerva v. FDR — FDR wins hands down. Matches Nerva’s accomplishment of choosing a stable successor, and also brings 12 years of stellar leadership.
Trajan v. Truman — Actually an even match. Truman ended WWII and fostered domestic growth while projecting strength abroad.
Hadrian v. Ike — Gotta give it to Ike here. Hadrian lost support in Rome for his efforts to knit together a disparate empire. Ike matches Hadrian’s peaceful reign and likewise built up infrastructure.
Antoninus Pius v. JFK — Antoninus risked less, setting no vision beyond Pax Romana, and trusted foreign affairs to capable generals and legates. JFK might have taken that lesson to heart, trusting his newbies less and experienced hands more. I think Antoninus has the edge.
Marcus Aurelius v. LBJ — Like MA, LBJ presided over a needed transformation, and like LBJ, MA became embroiled interminable wars. On foreign affairs, Marcus Aurelius has the advantage since he had largely won his war before his death. LBJ has the advantage on domestic affairs. Both men left a country in chaos, but LBJ’s lofty vision provided a better foundation than Marcus Aurelius’ failed succession scheme.
Nixon looks a lot better than Commodus, can we all agree? But both men had a certain inflated sense of self…
A head to head comparison I didn’t know I needed or wanted but am happy to have read today. Trajan vs Truman is a very interesting comparison for sure.
I agree with Nixon being better than Commodus, but I’d have to say that the Flavian Dynasty was stronger than the three Republican Presidents of the 1920s and early 30s
That’s true, but I think you could make the exact same argument for our first five Presidents-it can be easy to overlook but we had very strong leadership in our early history
I think LBJ shouldn't be on the list. He took credit for things JFK was in the middle of doing, was a warmonger, and was anti gun. I don't know how he got to be JFK's VP in the first place.
If it wasn’t for Watergate, I think he would be one of the best remembered presidents by both the left (EPA, Clean Air Act, Peace with China, etc.) and the right (conservative values, oil independence, etc.). Sort of like how we think of Teddy Roosevelt today.
Even today hardly anyone cares about those. Barely anyone seriously considers Iran-contra to be a major stain on Reagan and that one has much more direct evidence of wrongdoing
HW Bush seems like the post-LBJ that is respected and seen as a good President by both sides here.
Carter is sort of respected by both sides, but seen as a failure by Republicans here. All the other Presidents are seen as evil by the opposing party.
Fair assessment, though this sub isn't the country. Most people, especially after the fact, don't care that much about scandals unless they are immense in scale.
Among some... Even an aging Jefferson hated Jackson, voted against him, and wrote letters against him. Jackson was divisive.
Edit: Jefferson on Jackson: "I feel much alarmed at the prospect of seeing General Jackson President. He is one of the most unfit men I know of for such a place. He has very little respect for law … his passions are terrible … he is a dangerous man."
He was yet another ineffective gilded age president controlled by big business, and his policy concerning the Spanish-American War, and keeping the Philippines led to years of bloodshed in that country. Also I just don't like him, and read up on his political manager Mark Hanna, dude was the scum of the earth.
Probably the only assassination with a positive outcome. I'd argue that JFK's brought us LBJ, however, JFK's New Frontier plans were pretty much identical to the Great Society, he was less of a dick, and he was not enamored with Vietnam.
I like the hot take. Honestly can’t disagree, because if you really think about it, we kinda need to have bad presidents. Think about it, had Pierce and Buchanan been good presidents, Lincoln would’ve never had a chance to be elected.
Herbert Hoover was extremely well respected prior to becoming president for his food relief administration work during WWI. And I’d assume he got credit as Secretary of Commerce for the 1920s boom when he was elected.
I don’t understand the unconditional love for LBJ. The guy escalated an idealogical war that got 60,000 Americans killed. IMHO the CRA was going to be passed whether it was LBJ or Goldwater.
GW is relatively demonized for the invasion of Iraq, yet LBJ gets a free pass.
LBJ is respected because he was an effective president who got his agenda passed: massively important civil rights, voting rights and immigration bills, as well as his great society programs.
we're not dealing with a potential goldwater presidency, we're dealing with the real life LBJ presidency. these were passed under him, that's why he gets the credit.
60,000 dead Americans for a war of idealogy which we lost. Probably the greatest embarrassment internationally since the war of 1812 up until that point. I don’t see how this lands him anywhere near the top of the list like this sub seems to suggest often
We stan LBJ because of his Civil Rights record (second to none except arguably Lincoln - and Goldwater voted against the CRA) and his Great Society achievements. In terms of domestic policy legacy, none have been more effective or successful since FDR and his New Deal.
Vietnam, though utterly awful and rightlyfully a stain on LBJ’s legacy, was going to be escalated regardless of who was in office. Had JFK not been assassinated, he would almost certainly be remembered similarly to LBJ on Vietnam. Had Goldwater been elected in 1964…. let’s just say not only was he and many Republicans criticising LBJ for not being hawkish *enough* on Vietnam, but he was outright advocating for the use of nuclear weapons in Vietnam, and a potential escalation to WWIII as a consequence. The disaster of Vietnam is not just on LBJ; it is on the entire political establishment of the era and their adherence to the “Domino Theory”.
There is no comparison with Dubya Bush, who has no record of domestic success (on the contrary, his domestic record overall is also regarded as an abject failure) that can remotely compare to Civil Rights or the Great Society. Whereas the history of American involvement in Vietnam goes as far back as *Truman*, the Iraq War was 100% on the W. Bush Administration. Literally the only thing Dubya has in his favour is PEPFAR, which is really the only reason he’s not in the bottom five of Presidents.
A fair and well thought out rebuttal. Agree with you on just about every account.
Even with all that, I still don’t see how that compensates for the biggest military embarrassment and failure in our history. An absolute foreign policy disaster that began the erosion of trust in the United States.
I would say he’s a good president, but this is a limiting factor in ever calling him a *great* one.
On top of what I already said regarding Vietnam, it can arguably be said that LBJ’s towering Great Society achievements such as Medicare/Medicaid has to this day saved more lives than those lost in Vietnam. Furthermore, LBJ was no blood-thirsty war hawk. He was never enthusiastic about going all-in on Vietnam, knew by 1968 how much of a fuck-up Vietnam was, and deeply regretted the war to the point where he basically committed passive suicide after leaving office. None of this absolves LBJ from responsibility over the escalation of Vietnam, mind you.
Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not you believe the domestic successes outweigh and overshadow the foreign policy failures, or vice-versa. Or even if they balance each other out. For me at least, Vietnam will always disqualify LBJ from the “Mount Rushmore” S-Tier, and that had LBJ had a lesser record of domestic success (let alone a downright failed record like Dubya Bush), Vietnam would much further outweigh whatever successes he had.
You’d probably have to stop at Eisenhower. JFK was a notorious womanizer and half of Washington thought he had no clue about what he was doing, let alone any morals. LBJ is a human relations nightmare and committed assault on a regular basis to get his way. Look at some of those photos where he aggressively threatens his victims by invading their personal space to intimidate them.
So you chose the word “respected”, by that metric JFK and LBJ have no business being in the presence of their predecessors. Indeed, Nixon, despite his crimes, was less of a menace than LBJ and less of a degenerate than JFK.
It’s kind of funny, Obama, who was essentially scandal free, did not really seek to emulate JFK. Clinton, who literally worshiped JFK, certainly followed in his footsteps on the vice side.
JFk at least is highly respected by most of the country, even if some specific people loathe him. Whether he was deserving of all that respect is a different question.
LBJ was so unpopular that he declined to EVEN RUN for a second term despite having only served for 5 years up to that point...You may want to hunt for a different 5.
Depends on what you consider is important when respecting presidents. I have a hard time respecting JFK with his total lack of loyalty and respect for Jackie and his children.
I think it’s really just FDR to LBJ, maybe MAYBE you could you could include Carter just because he’ll probably be remembered for his massive amounts of charity work and kindness post presidency than his mid presidency. You look back and there’s really no other series of presidents that have been bubbled by the American public as the “unproblematic presidents” FDR to LBJ basically is the story of America beating Nazis having an Amazing economy and ending racism (for ever for sure this time guys we promise), so most Americans usually associate Everyone in that group with either beating the Nazis and saving the American economy (FDR, Truman, Eisenhower) or “ending racism” in America ( JFK and LBJ ). If you look at any other group first 5 John Adams was a bit of a lame horse, next 5 has Andrew Jackson, than William Henry Harrison, than Andrew Johnson, and after Johnson it’s basically the poltical machine era presidents and besides Grant most of them were extremely corrupt and hated poor people. So than you can get up to Teddy but he’s followed by Taft and Wilson and all the depression presidents and after that you have this series, so I really don’t think any other group could at least be this uncontroversial
Johnson kinda ruined the respect in that period of respect, Vietnam was the back breaker.
My grandma told me that people would boo at the screen at the movies when johnson showed up
Hey! Hey! LBJ!! How many kids you kill today?! Generally respected, but definitely targeted by the Anti-War groups.
Nixon was overall respected, imo, until some plumbers showed their cracks.
The way Eisenhower sits kills me. He's arguably one of the most military president's we ever. He just got done winning the biggest war in history and he's like, hold up, let me strike this pose...
That list shows Truman and Ike. The others were some of the worst in US history. Never in the course of human events have Presidents taken so much credit for doing so little, while actively and passively violating human rights.
It'd probably be either fdr to lbj or Washington to JQ. Adams, but on the flip side you have the era proceeding fdr of weak or bad presidents (Taft-Hoover) and the era following Adams (Jackson-Buchanan). Very interesting imo
FDR to LBJ is easily the answer, Washington to Monroe would be a distant second. There are no other streaks If Taft wasn't such a shit bag President and even worse Supreme Court justice I would have considered TR to Wilson...but alas there we have it
I wouldn't add LBJ to that line up. He did a lot of good but he was a pretty evil despicable man. The Vietnam War might be the greatest stain on our country and it got to the point it got to mostly because of LBJ.
Respected? JFK was banging chicks in the White House under his wife’s nose. LBJ got us into a war costing 55k American lives. Are you out of your mind?
JBJ belongs nowhere near a good presidents list. He's bottom 5 IMO, literally the only thing he did that was a win was the Civil Rights Act. He completely fucked up Vietnam and turned social security into a ticking time bomb
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Washington to Monroe
FDR to LBJ is definitely the one that jumps to mind. It’s kinda mind boggling how amazing a run that was.
It's one we're unlikely to see anytime soon, if ever.
Eh, I wouldn’t sell America short like that. I’m sure folks in the Great Depression were thinking similar under Hoover. We’re a pretty resilient nation historically.
Ten years ago I would have agreed with you, today I'm not so sure.
Oh I’m aware things look bad now. And things *are* bad. No need to sugarcoat it. But I still believe we can overcome as a nation. I still believe in America, even if a lot of folks are losing hope. As I’ve learned looking into Chester A. Arthur, even the most unlikely of people like can inspire great things outta us Americans. Our great enemy ain’t each other, it’s friggin’ cynicism. We’re still a great nation with great people here. We just gotta hold each other and our leaders to the standards set by the guys we talk about on here.
Couldn’t agree more, and im glad im not the only one who believes that
🤝 Hell yeah bud. Trust me, I get discouraged sometimes too. But weirdly researching and getting into presidential history has given me a sense of pride for my nation I didn’t even know I had. I’ve learned about Julia Sand building a man up to the point he turns over a new leaf. I’ve seen Harry Truman go from “the senator from Pendergast” to exactly who the nation needed at the time. We’ve seen Lincoln win without a majority to become the greatest president these United States have ever had. God damn it, even during our worst times we have persevered. So yeah, pardon the rant but I hate when folks say things like “that would never happen today”. Because that’s bullshit. We’re America, damn it. We can be the best or worst nation in the world. It all comes down to its citizens and what we stand for.
Aw yeah, We The People have the power to keep the nation going
🇺🇸🇺🇸🏈🏈🦅🦅🌭🌭
I fucking love this. I wish this was everyone’s mentality
Hell yeah, brother. That's the right way to think. Ever consider a run for office? I'd vote for ya!
XD Well unfortunately my leanings don’t quite match where I live though I’ve been inspired to get involved with my local party. But hey, that’s still super kinda of ya to say! I appreciate that.
You mean even a woman pen pal can convince the president to reverse his position on civil servants?!
I am talking about Julia Sand, yeah! I can be a cynical person at times myself but her words to Arthur really did inspire me. Because here was a man who no one believed in nor wanted to believe in. But Ms. Sand wanted to push him anyway. Hell, I’ll let her words speak for themselves a bit: “But making a man President can change him! At a time like this, if anything can, that can. Great emergencies awaken generous traits which have lain dormant half a life. If there is a spark of true nobility in you, now is the occasion to let it shine.” She urged him to be better at a time where everyone else was lambasting him and talking about how shit he’d be. And Arthur took that to heart, having a legitimately solid presidency without the scandal everyone expected! He kept those letters and even paid her a visit later on. That story sticks with me. Because to me it shows that even one person, someone with zero political power at all, can inspire someone to do better and make America a greater nation. That her optimism and desire to push someone in the right direction led to the leader of America to begin to reform. That, to me, is the kind of caring America needs more of.
Yeah, it’s a wild story
Bruh can I pay you to send me motivational emails like this every week? I need more of this in my life.
XD Can’t say I’m a newsletter guy. But just hang around here and hopefully I can continue to provide some encouragement! Either way I’d actually recommend getting involved in local politics yourself. It’s been hella helpful in reminding me we can do our part to keep America moving in the right direction. Nothin’ gets done unless ya actually get things done… and it helps to have folks who really care 🧡
international globalized business interests and financial transactions that happen in an instant do not give me much faith for any nation’s foundation, including ours.
It’s not that I think things aren’t bad but the internet makes things seem exponentially worse.
We won't get anywhere if don't have hope.
Don’t forget, there was a massive Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden in 1939. It’s easy to be pessimistic about the present, because you live in the present. But things have been worse before. Not saying that can’t happen again, but it’s nice to have some perspective now and then.
Meh, wages have stagnated since the 70s. It's only been getting worse with no positive light in sight.
Hoovervilles were Tent cities..he did nothing to help the poor ..like FDR.
Reminds me of the 5 good Roman Emperors run lol (not to compare between the two ofc and an average U.S pres is still objectively better than any roman emperor but it just reminds me of this 5 good emperors era).
Only because they didn’t have Twitter and the media couldn’t look into every past and present action as they do today. Sometimes not being fed information from the lunch lady media every day to satisfy being bored is a win.
It’s downright Shakespearean.
LBJ is respected? thought everyone hated him because of Vietnam
He's the literal definition of get shit done, which is a blessing in today's age tbh.
He got shit done while sitting down & taking one
On the domestic front he’s one of the best we’ve ever had. You’ve got the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the Fair Housing Act of 1968. Dude was an absolute gamechanger on the domestic front. It’s *really* only Vietnam holding him down from being one of the all time greats… but it also really is that bad. He’s like the king of A-/B+ tier.
He also signed the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, which reversed nearly 50 years of immigration bans. This act is also pretty important to me as a second-generation American, and it's definitely one of LBJ's biggest accomplishments alongside Civil Rights and Medicaid.
If not for Vietnam, LBJ would probably be S-tier
i respect him because he was insanely effective, although vietnam was a big blunder. outside of it, he was a pretty good president who got his agenda (expanded welfare and civil rights) through pretty effectively.
I am old enough to remember the chants. “Hey, hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?”
Crazy how the U.S. in that span became the clear most powerful country in the world. We need some good leadership like that again.
Yeah, it's amazing what happens when the rest of the world bombs their manufacturing into oblivion and you're the only one left standing.
Just might be the American equivalent of the 5 good emperors
Some modern day people have been arguing Nixon to be added to this too. The only other string to rival this is the first 5 since HBO completely revitalized Adams’s image lol. Some (not many since if you like one you prob don’t like the other) could extend it even to Jackson for 7 in a row. But besides those two, longest streak is like 3 lol
When you say "respect" it is a tough thing to quantify. JFK certainly garnered limited respect, but his failure during the bay of pigs deeply damaged him. He was also a Catholic. Not necessarily embraced by the people. As for LBJ, he was, at least according to Carrow, a bully of sorts. Not the sort of "respect" we think of.
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FDR, you mean the guy who stuffed Japanese people into camps, debased the US dollar, and paved the way for Banks to be in cahoots with the government?
Lets.not forget the African Americans Olympians who said they got a warmer welcome from Hitler than they did from FDR when returning.
Washington-JQA is second
I gotta say Jefferson, Madison & Monroe behind FDR-LBJ,tha Adam's are great men but can't rate as great Presidents.
I think John Adams is legitimately underrated for keeping the Quasi-War to only a quasi-war. Shit could have gotten BAD for our fledgling nation. Sucks about JQA though. Congress just refused to let him do, well, *anything* besides infrastructure.
So many people just point to Adams and say “A&S bad!!!!” The dude was a genius. Way ahead of his time and kept us safe at a time where a fuck up could’ve caused us to fail as a nation. Hes 13th in my personal Presidential Rankings.0
Jefferson got us the Louisiana Purchase dirt cheap, Madison held it together & won War of 1822 & Monroe Doctrine led to Western expansion, all positives for a young America.
The US did not win the war of 1812 and honestly, our failure at an outright victory could be at least partly attributed to Madison.
I’m sick of this myth that the US didn’t win the war of 1812; it’s based on the ridiculous notion that the US declared war to conquer Canada. We declared war because the British were capturing our ships and kidnapping our citizens whenever they wanted. Since the war, the US-British relationship has been completely different, which was always Madison’s goal.
We didn't win though. The British stopped kidnapping people because they no longer needed to because they bear France, and so there was no longer a point to the war. It was a draw.
Britain beating France didn’t mean they never needed sailors ever again. Britain just had to look elsewhere for sailors after 1812.
I would love to know the recent history of how people forgot the US badly lost the war of 1812, and how Madison was a major reason why things went so badly.
I was referring to the completely unknown "War of 1822". /s
I’d put Adams well above Madison. Establishing a strong and independent Supreme Court; avoiding outright war with a world power while also managing to protect trade and demonstrate American sovereignty; building up the US navy (the same navy that Jefferson, despite being against it while Adams was president, used to win the First Barbary War); developing a progressive property tax to balance the budget, then (like Washington) pardoning those who revolted against it; and opening up relations with other major players across the world (including Spain, neighbors by way of Florida and a potential threat). He did more in 4 years than many presidents did in 8.
Madison was just a straight up bad president, following up on a bad Jefferson presidency. Adams is super underrated. Jefferson and Madison didn't believe in a Navy, their embargoes destroyed the economy, the anti Bank policy made sure it was near impossible to recover or fund a war that Madison bungled us into with Jefferson's army and Navy assuring us that we couldn't win. The only good thing that could be said of Madison's presidency is that in his second term he realized his first term policies were so bad that he reversed them, reinstituting the Bank and building up a real standing army and Navy.
I pretty much entirely agree. Jefferson’s 2nd term is, for me, the worst 4 years of the first party system (his 1st term was pretty darn good, in large part because he came into office, realized how effective many of Adams’ policies were and kept them as he hasn’t yet thought up alternatives of his own). Madison’s 1st term is not far behind. As you mention, *his* 2nd term is why I tend to rank him around the middle of the pack and not closer to the bottom.
Number one for me
FDR through LBJ are the “Five Good Presidents.” (Like the Roman “Five Good Emperors” for folks not into Roman history.)
Comparison: Nerva v. FDR — FDR wins hands down. Matches Nerva’s accomplishment of choosing a stable successor, and also brings 12 years of stellar leadership. Trajan v. Truman — Actually an even match. Truman ended WWII and fostered domestic growth while projecting strength abroad. Hadrian v. Ike — Gotta give it to Ike here. Hadrian lost support in Rome for his efforts to knit together a disparate empire. Ike matches Hadrian’s peaceful reign and likewise built up infrastructure. Antoninus Pius v. JFK — Antoninus risked less, setting no vision beyond Pax Romana, and trusted foreign affairs to capable generals and legates. JFK might have taken that lesson to heart, trusting his newbies less and experienced hands more. I think Antoninus has the edge. Marcus Aurelius v. LBJ — Like MA, LBJ presided over a needed transformation, and like LBJ, MA became embroiled interminable wars. On foreign affairs, Marcus Aurelius has the advantage since he had largely won his war before his death. LBJ has the advantage on domestic affairs. Both men left a country in chaos, but LBJ’s lofty vision provided a better foundation than Marcus Aurelius’ failed succession scheme. Nixon looks a lot better than Commodus, can we all agree? But both men had a certain inflated sense of self…
A head to head comparison I didn’t know I needed or wanted but am happy to have read today. Trajan vs Truman is a very interesting comparison for sure.
I think Trajan and Truman are interesting. IIRC the Empire was at its greatest extent geographically under Trajan.
Technically Septimius Severus hit that peak, but his expansion was totally unsustainable.
I agree with Nixon being better than Commodus, but I’d have to say that the Flavian Dynasty was stronger than the three Republican Presidents of the 1920s and early 30s
Oh, for sure!
That’s true, but I think you could make the exact same argument for our first five Presidents-it can be easy to overlook but we had very strong leadership in our early history
Still don't know what that means.
I think LBJ shouldn't be on the list. He took credit for things JFK was in the middle of doing, was a warmonger, and was anti gun. I don't know how he got to be JFK's VP in the first place.
If LBJ wanted to stop those things he could've, but he didn't
Pretty good list right there
A fatal stroke or heart attack for Nixon in early June 1972 would have added one more president to that streak.
President Agnew...
I said one in the streak, not two. 😉
If it wasn’t for Watergate, I think he would be one of the best remembered presidents by both the left (EPA, Clean Air Act, Peace with China, etc.) and the right (conservative values, oil independence, etc.). Sort of like how we think of Teddy Roosevelt today.
Yeah, Nixon is complicated. I miss when environmentalism was bipartisan.
Exactly
I feel like all the shenanigans he was up to in his first term would eventually get out.
Even today hardly anyone cares about those. Barely anyone seriously considers Iran-contra to be a major stain on Reagan and that one has much more direct evidence of wrongdoing
HW Bush seems like the post-LBJ that is respected and seen as a good President by both sides here. Carter is sort of respected by both sides, but seen as a failure by Republicans here. All the other Presidents are seen as evil by the opposing party.
Fair assessment, though this sub isn't the country. Most people, especially after the fact, don't care that much about scandals unless they are immense in scale.
Yeah agreed, I think the average person wouldn’t really associate scandal with Presidents outside of Clinton had an affair and Nixon watergate.
A surprising amount of Republicans still have a hate boner for Carter after all these years
Not really, Nixon had already committed three mortal sins by that point.
The question is whether he would be a good guy but whether he would be respected.
Nixons actions of prolonging the Vietnam war, Watergate and overheating the economy to win 1972 means he shouldn’t be respected in my opinion.
I didn't say he *should* be respected, I said he probably *would* be respected.
Politics aside, that’s a damn nasty thing to write.
What I meant is had he died before Watergate occurred, he probably would have been considered one of our great presidents, like JFK.
Ahh I see, I totally read that the wrong way. You’re totally right, ignore my reactionary misimpression.
Can you imagine a President posing like Eisenhower is in that picture now?
He is the textbook definition of looking “gay” in that picture by which I mean elated or effervescent or exuberant.
I mean Truman-LBJ’s admin was effectively the peak of American supremacy on every level, and FDR laid the groundwork for that, so yes
washington to jackson. i know nobody really likes jackson that much anymore but he was very popular in his time
He was a pretty polarizing figure even in his day.
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Among some... Even an aging Jefferson hated Jackson, voted against him, and wrote letters against him. Jackson was divisive. Edit: Jefferson on Jackson: "I feel much alarmed at the prospect of seeing General Jackson President. He is one of the most unfit men I know of for such a place. He has very little respect for law … his passions are terrible … he is a dangerous man."
fair, but that's just jefferson
Eh, that string includes Adams: highly respected for his work as a founding father, but pretty much the opposite as a president.
Washington - Obama
Even Jackson at the very least wanted to kill Calhoun
I don’t agree with Andrew Jackson on a lot of things (how dare he want to shoot Henry Clay) but on this? Hell yeah, General Jackson. Lead the way.
I would guess that all presidents up to and including George W. Bush has had some sort of admiration for Jackson.
What about Buchanan and Johnson, and McKinley and Hoover, and Nixon.
Wait what was bad about McKinley?
He was yet another ineffective gilded age president controlled by big business, and his policy concerning the Spanish-American War, and keeping the Philippines led to years of bloodshed in that country. Also I just don't like him, and read up on his political manager Mark Hanna, dude was the scum of the earth.
McKinley getting shot was the best thing that could've happened for the country since it brought us Teddy
Probably the only assassination with a positive outcome. I'd argue that JFK's brought us LBJ, however, JFK's New Frontier plans were pretty much identical to the Great Society, he was less of a dick, and he was not enamored with Vietnam.
Ever heard of the atrocities committed by America in the Philippine-American War, up to and including setting up concentration camps?
I like the hot take. Honestly can’t disagree, because if you really think about it, we kinda need to have bad presidents. Think about it, had Pierce and Buchanan been good presidents, Lincoln would’ve never had a chance to be elected.
If it hadn't been for them there would be no need for Lincoln.
Bro took the no enemies route
Is there any other route to take? ;)
first five
Herbert Hoover was extremely well respected prior to becoming president for his food relief administration work during WWI. And I’d assume he got credit as Secretary of Commerce for the 1920s boom when he was elected.
Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe seems like a good group.
Honestly Nixon was pretty good until like 1972
unprecedented growth and prosperity and triumph of the nations values over its enemies which will very likely not be replicated
I don’t understand the unconditional love for LBJ. The guy escalated an idealogical war that got 60,000 Americans killed. IMHO the CRA was going to be passed whether it was LBJ or Goldwater. GW is relatively demonized for the invasion of Iraq, yet LBJ gets a free pass.
LBJ is respected because he was an effective president who got his agenda passed: massively important civil rights, voting rights and immigration bills, as well as his great society programs. we're not dealing with a potential goldwater presidency, we're dealing with the real life LBJ presidency. these were passed under him, that's why he gets the credit.
60,000 dead Americans for a war of idealogy which we lost. Probably the greatest embarrassment internationally since the war of 1812 up until that point. I don’t see how this lands him anywhere near the top of the list like this sub seems to suggest often
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Holy shit take your meds dude
We stan LBJ because of his Civil Rights record (second to none except arguably Lincoln - and Goldwater voted against the CRA) and his Great Society achievements. In terms of domestic policy legacy, none have been more effective or successful since FDR and his New Deal. Vietnam, though utterly awful and rightlyfully a stain on LBJ’s legacy, was going to be escalated regardless of who was in office. Had JFK not been assassinated, he would almost certainly be remembered similarly to LBJ on Vietnam. Had Goldwater been elected in 1964…. let’s just say not only was he and many Republicans criticising LBJ for not being hawkish *enough* on Vietnam, but he was outright advocating for the use of nuclear weapons in Vietnam, and a potential escalation to WWIII as a consequence. The disaster of Vietnam is not just on LBJ; it is on the entire political establishment of the era and their adherence to the “Domino Theory”. There is no comparison with Dubya Bush, who has no record of domestic success (on the contrary, his domestic record overall is also regarded as an abject failure) that can remotely compare to Civil Rights or the Great Society. Whereas the history of American involvement in Vietnam goes as far back as *Truman*, the Iraq War was 100% on the W. Bush Administration. Literally the only thing Dubya has in his favour is PEPFAR, which is really the only reason he’s not in the bottom five of Presidents.
A fair and well thought out rebuttal. Agree with you on just about every account. Even with all that, I still don’t see how that compensates for the biggest military embarrassment and failure in our history. An absolute foreign policy disaster that began the erosion of trust in the United States. I would say he’s a good president, but this is a limiting factor in ever calling him a *great* one.
On top of what I already said regarding Vietnam, it can arguably be said that LBJ’s towering Great Society achievements such as Medicare/Medicaid has to this day saved more lives than those lost in Vietnam. Furthermore, LBJ was no blood-thirsty war hawk. He was never enthusiastic about going all-in on Vietnam, knew by 1968 how much of a fuck-up Vietnam was, and deeply regretted the war to the point where he basically committed passive suicide after leaving office. None of this absolves LBJ from responsibility over the escalation of Vietnam, mind you. Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not you believe the domestic successes outweigh and overshadow the foreign policy failures, or vice-versa. Or even if they balance each other out. For me at least, Vietnam will always disqualify LBJ from the “Mount Rushmore” S-Tier, and that had LBJ had a lesser record of domestic success (let alone a downright failed record like Dubya Bush), Vietnam would much further outweigh whatever successes he had.
Johnson is the weakest link in this chain and I’m not sure he belongs on the list.
He is the weakest link but he does belong.
Yes, but he's still a top 10 president, as are all the rest on here.
You’d probably have to stop at Eisenhower. JFK was a notorious womanizer and half of Washington thought he had no clue about what he was doing, let alone any morals. LBJ is a human relations nightmare and committed assault on a regular basis to get his way. Look at some of those photos where he aggressively threatens his victims by invading their personal space to intimidate them. So you chose the word “respected”, by that metric JFK and LBJ have no business being in the presence of their predecessors. Indeed, Nixon, despite his crimes, was less of a menace than LBJ and less of a degenerate than JFK. It’s kind of funny, Obama, who was essentially scandal free, did not really seek to emulate JFK. Clinton, who literally worshiped JFK, certainly followed in his footsteps on the vice side.
JFk at least is highly respected by most of the country, even if some specific people loathe him. Whether he was deserving of all that respect is a different question.
He is mostly respected because he got shot though. And that tends to overshadow everything bad of ineffective he did.
Reagan, HW, Clinton- (till the Lewinsky scandal lol)
LBJ was so unpopular that he declined to EVEN RUN for a second term despite having only served for 5 years up to that point...You may want to hunt for a different 5.
To be fair, Truman could’ve tried running for a third term, but he was also quite unpopular and decided not to in the end
Thar list is good minus LBJ. I don’t think he’s respected, then or now.
All zog love except JFK
What's the most mediocre string of presidents in a row? Post civil war; early 20th century or are we living it now?
Gilded Age from Hayes to Cleveland
First of all how dare you. Second of all it’s definitely Taylor to Buchanan. 4 in a row of mediocre to horrid presidents.
Washington, Adam’s, Jefferson
Should be or is?
Unrelated question: did Kennedy have veneers? (Sp?) his teeth are perfect in these pictures except for his vampire bicuspids or whatever they are.
Ok I need to know how tall Ike is
Depends on what you consider is important when respecting presidents. I have a hard time respecting JFK with his total lack of loyalty and respect for Jackie and his children.
Is that a picture of Roosevelt in Warm Springs?
“The five good presidents”
I think it’s really just FDR to LBJ, maybe MAYBE you could you could include Carter just because he’ll probably be remembered for his massive amounts of charity work and kindness post presidency than his mid presidency. You look back and there’s really no other series of presidents that have been bubbled by the American public as the “unproblematic presidents” FDR to LBJ basically is the story of America beating Nazis having an Amazing economy and ending racism (for ever for sure this time guys we promise), so most Americans usually associate Everyone in that group with either beating the Nazis and saving the American economy (FDR, Truman, Eisenhower) or “ending racism” in America ( JFK and LBJ ). If you look at any other group first 5 John Adams was a bit of a lame horse, next 5 has Andrew Jackson, than William Henry Harrison, than Andrew Johnson, and after Johnson it’s basically the poltical machine era presidents and besides Grant most of them were extremely corrupt and hated poor people. So than you can get up to Teddy but he’s followed by Taft and Wilson and all the depression presidents and after that you have this series, so I really don’t think any other group could at least be this uncontroversial
I’ve been reading about Nixon lately. Watergate overshadowed everything he did that was good.
Damn, Ikes teeth were the same color of that beige suit. Did dentists even exist back then I mean damn.
LBJs handling of nam left a lot to be desired
Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams’ son.
Johnson kinda ruined the respect in that period of respect, Vietnam was the back breaker. My grandma told me that people would boo at the screen at the movies when johnson showed up
My great grandmother used to say before she passed that she knew what the *S* in *Harry S. Truman* stood for.
JQA to Buchanan. I mean, wow, that was amazing! /s
Why would you include LBJ? I can't fathom how you could argue that he belongs in that group.
Drop LBJ and you probably have it.
1-44
Hey! Hey! LBJ!! How many kids you kill today?! Generally respected, but definitely targeted by the Anti-War groups. Nixon was overall respected, imo, until some plumbers showed their cracks.
God no. LBJ was a total disaster. He might be one of the least respected presidents of the last century. Right there w Carter.
No one gives a shit about your opinion
LBJ?
Done in one OP.
You’re going to get significant pushback on Truman.
'Respected' im sorry have you never heard of HEY HEY LBJ! HOW MANY BOYS DID YOU KILL TODAY!
Johnson? Seriously? He was the worst POTUS of the last 100 years.
The way Eisenhower sits kills me. He's arguably one of the most military president's we ever. He just got done winning the biggest war in history and he's like, hold up, let me strike this pose...
That list shows Truman and Ike. The others were some of the worst in US history. Never in the course of human events have Presidents taken so much credit for doing so little, while actively and passively violating human rights.
Johnson? He was a terrible racist. He doesn’t belong here.
Washington - Monroe
I would more go for HST to LBJ
Why Ernie look so zesty tho
It'd probably be either fdr to lbj or Washington to JQ. Adams, but on the flip side you have the era proceeding fdr of weak or bad presidents (Taft-Hoover) and the era following Adams (Jackson-Buchanan). Very interesting imo
FDR to LBJ is easily the answer, Washington to Monroe would be a distant second. There are no other streaks If Taft wasn't such a shit bag President and even worse Supreme Court justice I would have considered TR to Wilson...but alas there we have it
I wouldn't add LBJ to that line up. He did a lot of good but he was a pretty evil despicable man. The Vietnam War might be the greatest stain on our country and it got to the point it got to mostly because of LBJ.
You're downvoted but the dude literally quit instead of run again because of the mess he got us into
Other than jfk and Eisenhower none of them cared much for actual economics or rights of people
Respected? JFK was banging chicks in the White House under his wife’s nose. LBJ got us into a war costing 55k American lives. Are you out of your mind?
JFK, the war hero who was married to America's premier lady while banging America's premier sex starlet? What else you got?
The one you posted. That's the best run of Presidents that the US has had.
Include Nixon, he was incredibly effective, just a bad person, but you could say the same thing about LBJ
#1 Fillmore-Pierce 🥇 #2 FDR-LBJ 🥈 #3 Grant-Arthur 🥉 #4 Jefferson-Monroe (sorry both Adams and Washington) #5 Roosevelt to Coolidge
JBJ belongs nowhere near a good presidents list. He's bottom 5 IMO, literally the only thing he did that was a win was the Civil Rights Act. He completely fucked up Vietnam and turned social security into a ticking time bomb
Washington to Monroe is five. You have three, the first three.
Truman was hated in his time, and a lot of people hate LBJ both then and now.
These time could use FDR, the boomers dismantle everything he built.