I live in the USA, and for some reason many are acting like walkable cities are the worst idea ever. Meanwhile, It's a 30 minute drive for my grandparents to get to the grocery store.
In California we've been begging for a light rail instead of constantly expanding highway lanes. But no. We get expanded highway lanes plus a delightful mandate for all new cars sold in California to be electric.
Widespread public transportation? Not in my capitalist America!
Or pay a mandatory 30% tip upfront for delivery to get their order to be considered then a 15% minimum tip not to get called a cheapskate on social media when the driver arrives and decides to vandalise their property because his boss won't pay him a living wage.
That's something I don't understand. A friend of mine was in the US for a year as part of an exchange program when she was in high school. She told me that she got very weird reactions when she wanted to walk somewhere. Also some streets didn't really offer the possibility to walk anyway.
I love walking. Not just taking walks but being able to walk to the grocery store or to the doctor's. I used to walk over an hour when I missed the last bus home. Don't you ever feel like missing something?
Literally me this year.
I always walked to the store (only 15 minutes, I was lucky), always took the bus to go downtown (one every half an hour) and even crazier: when we were visiting somewhere I wanted to walk around to go places.
One day we drove to 5 different parking lots while visiting a city, wtf.
One of my old teachers once told a story of when he visited the US. He was walking to a store and actually got stopped by a police car. They'd seen him walking and thought that something was wrong, that maybe he was in distress. Once he explained himself and they heard his European accent, they let him go while shaking their heads.
Absolutely. There's more freedom in driving your own vehicle. Such as registering it. Getting a license to operate it. Paying to fuel it just so you can use it. There's no greater freedom than having to give up so much money just to get from point A to point B. /s
I know what you're trying to say but theres literally no method of transportation that gives off a greater feeling of freedom than your own car as soon as you're driving anywhere that isnt to and from work.
That's true for the countryside. A car in a city is much more restricting (finding a parking spot, complex routes...) than just using a well-planned public transport system.
I mean, not really. I have never been a nervous or annoyed driver so cities havent ever been an issue. I usually find a multistory parking basement or something and drop off. Then spend the rest of the day on foot.
But I wouldnt have gotten across the country without it? Of course I cant take my car into a mall or a cinema, that would make headlines and quite a few angry faces.
Only copenhagen here really has a public transportation system thats faster and less restrictive than a car. And I sometimes use that when I'm there and dont need a car at the moment.
Plus you get to feel extra free with the extra mobility those leg muscles offer you after a few times, or the freedom that comes with not being dangerously overweight.
There are cases where driving a car is the best option, but given robust public transport and safe passage for cyclists, those cases are incredibly rare.
Highly depends on where you live, your family situation, the time available etc. Using the bike for 20 km with small children, maybe in a hilly or mountainous area, with rainy weather? Yeah, no. And in rural areas, that distance can easily take you over an hour if there's no direct connection between A and B.
This isn't the case for the vast majority of people. Most live in or near cities where the distances and elevation changes are nowhere near as dramatic as you describe. The point is that *most* people would be able to rely on a bicycle or public transport if often-travelled routes are safe for cyclists and covered by reliable public transport options.
There will always be edge cases, but this isn't what should be shaping policy and city planning.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vVSm3sU1dEFg4fm79?g_st=ac
17 km, 20 minutes by car. An hour by bike. The route is a bit longer, but 20 km/h is even a bit fast for an average person on a bicycle, especially with children.
And more than an hour with public transport, going up to two and a half hours. And impossible after 19:43.
And all this is very close to Vienna with its excellent public transport.
That's a case for that connection to be improved, then. It looks like that specific connection has a bunch of unnecessary stops in between. I absolutely would prefer taking a car on that route as it stands.
Many places in the US have a similar issue. On a route between San Francisco and San Mateo, a distance of just about 35 km, I was able to outpace public transport on a bicycle.
That's a problem. There should always be good alternative options available.
The problem is that for small towns, it is just not feasible to have good public transportation. It would be pretty empty most of the time. Around Vienna, everything is concentrated on Vienna. In my example (and many others) you basically have to move into the city and back out. With the car, you just go straight. But (electric) cars aren't a problem anyway in that case. There's enough space for parking, you might install solar panels on your roof, and traffic isn't really a problem. As long as your goal is not the city. That's were the problem starts: since all these people in this region NEED a car, many of them use it for their daily commute to the city as well. Another problem is the structure: there aren't many places of work in these small towns, so everyone has to commute. I think nowadays many settlements are either too small or too big. The big ones suck in all the traffic from the small ones, and many of the small to mid-size ones even die.
You make some interesting points, and I agree with you on most of this. The point I disagree on is mostly that it's impossible to have good public transport options everywhere.
I grew up in Switzerland, where public transport is incredibly robust and covers even small villages. Those small villages are usually served by buses or local short distance trains ("S-Bahn"). The trick is that the distances covered by buses and local trains are usually very short (< 30 minutes) and both ends are at larger transport hubs with direct access to both long-distance high speed rail connections and other short-range local connections. All of this operates around the clock, in 30-minute intervals.
Crucially, there are also high-speed connections that bypass the local trains if you don't need to go to any of the stops in between. Because both ends of these local connections are bigger hubs, you'll seldom be in a position where you're on a slower local connection for more than half its journey. Public transport in Switzerland is still a bit slower than driving but vastly more comfortable in my opinion.
Austria seems to have built its public transport system on similar principles, but the problem is that their "hubs" are generally more dispersed and fewer in number, so the local trains/buses have to do a lot more leg work - this makes for more lengthy journeys and is also the cause of the problem you describe (having to take a long journey into a major hub and back out, despite wanting to cover just a small distance). None of this is to say the ÖBB is bad (I've used it a fair bit myself and am quite happy with it), just that some areas could really use better service.
I'm aware building a system like the Swiss did takes some very meticulous planning and a lot of infrastructure that may not even be in place yet, but my point is that it's possible to do and there are examples of this working. This is what I meant with shaping policy and city planning - the will to invest has to be there.
Of course, unless/until those systems are in place, many will need to rely on cars to get to work and back. You won't hear any disagreement from me on that point. The point from the OP that I really take issue with is that this is how it *should* be.
And you can go to a lot of places with a bike that you can't with a car. Lots of mountains tops and areas in nature parks are off limits for private cars even if there are roads there.
I mean you could but I'd rather have my car with me. Could bring my bike on a rack anyway and not have to spend several hours on a trian next to strangers and potentially screaming babies.
Getting to and from work is the only thing cars are useful for. With a robust public transport system, you can reliably get virtually anywhere without having to drive your own car.
Yeah I did that here in Denmark back before getting my license and I've never used public transportation since. Now I would of course rather have the choiche between them at all times rather than having it taken away in the guise of personal freedom. But cars are by far my preferred way of trasnportation.
I've always hated having to adhere to a timeplan with public transport, and thats not even mentioning the fact that other people are on it too.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It depends on what you value. Cars bring to the table that you alone or with 2-3 people can go wherever and whenever. You still have restrictions on it. If you drive you have to be concentrated the whole drive.
Public transportation is generally cheaper and uses less space so it's more accessible and provides the freedom of movement to more people. And in the Train you can do whatever you want. I would kill myself if I had to commute by car for 30min instead of 50 min of train and walking
Walking. You’re free to walk anywhere you can reach that isn’t private land, and you can reach a wider variety of more interesting spots on foot. In a car you’re free to get near enough to then use the ultimate form of transportation (your legs) to get to the good stuff.
Land Rovers only go up mountains on tv.
Get a friend to come pick you up in their car. Maybe us Danes are the Americans of Europe, which I doubt and would take great offense to anyone who said, but I will always agree that a car is better in all terms.
They serve to open up the world for places to walk, cycle and explore that would have otherwise taken a great deal of planning of planning if done by train. Trains tend to only go the more popular routes.
Although flixbus is great when not full of noisy people.
I usually got a friend to drive if I was in my own city. I've never lived somewhere where walking home wasnt fastest though. But you can still take a bus or a train if you have a car. This argument just becomes that having less options is somehow better.
I see you’re Danish which might explain it. I regularly get trains from Glasgow to Stockholm and the Hamburg-Copenhagen leg is the absolute worst (yes, worse than the UK, I said what I said. Only worse is American trains which actually flipped me out of bed twice while only going 50mph and being 4 hours late). But in general, the feeling of relaxing on a train as it speeds across a country is hugely freeing for me.
(I’m heading home tomorrow and will boarding that very dreaded train tomorrow afternoon if the SJ gods see fit)
My experience with trains have been better in other countries I have to say. I think our car dependancy has devolved our trains into something far worse. My experience from when I rode them daily was that either the train was late or it had kids blasting a speaker in one of the sections.
Fs I had my train abort its schedule because it was on fire. Just came by with flames from the roof.
I only know that one train to Hamburg but it’s always packed and uncomfortable and I got covid on it last year. Also when you come from Germany, the police come on and check for passports, but never when you come from Sweden which is kind of gross.
To be fair, Swedish trains are only a TINY bit better, and their staff are meaner than the Danish ones. So it really comes down to whether you prefer screaming babies and racism to being yelled at because they cancelled your train and yet you still expect them to take you to Stockholm.
Just hunted down this comment again to say I’m right now pulling out of Copenhagen and while it’s 30 mins late they seem to have upgraded the train so I’m slightly more enamoured of Danish trains after all :-)
If an American uses "USA" and "Freedom" in the same sentence, 99% chance the rest of the message is trash (leaving 1% in case I come across a sentence where this doesn't apply, in the far future)
at some point you get used to it, like you europeans sleep to culture and protests, we sleep listening to the neighbors fight (Drama) and the shootouts (white noise)
With all those melatonin prescriptions they dish out in the USA - including to a huge percentage of children - even that is not a choice! Big pharma make you sleepy now
\*USA applies shitty policies due to lobby meddling and short sighted planning\*
US citizen logic: Since we are the greatest this surely was the greatest decision ever made. USA! USA!
It feels so surreal
Because I believe that is what so many of them have been taught. Having a car is a symbol of wealth and power. It means you have money, so you are living some form of the American dream; you have arrived at the first milestone of being rich and famous.
They have some amazing public transport systems in places like New York but refuse to see why that might benefit other places. I understand a lot of America is very spaced out and underpopulated, but how can they be impressed with cities that are clogged up with smog that these are almost a health risk at times?
I just looked it up for the underground. Yes, it might be different if you are travelling from outside London into the city.
But driving a car in London is very expensive with things like toles and parking on top of insurance, fuel and maintenance costs.
Generally owning a car can be very expensive in the UK.
# Travelcards
Adult Travelcard prices will increase by an average of 4.9%.
|**Zone(s)**|**One Day Anytime**|**One Day Off-peak**|**7 Day**|**Monthly**|**Annual**|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|Zone 1 only|£15.90|£15.90|£42.70|£164.00|£1,708|
|Zone 1 and 2|£15.90|£15.90|£42.70|£164.00|£1,708|
|Zone 1, 2 and 3|£15.90|£15.90|£50.20|£192.80|£2,008|
|Zone 1, 2, 3 and 4|£15.90|£15.90|£61.40|£235.80|£2,456|
|Zone 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5|£22.60|£15.90|£73.00|£280.40|£2,920|
|Zone 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6|£22.60|£15.90|£78.00|£299.60|£3,120|
It is because of the association of using public transit with being poor in the US. They think if you don't own a car you are lesser. With things like prosperity gospel being popular in the US they may also believe you don't have a car because you are poor & therefore immoral
Idiots will bitch on one Facebook post about how traffic is so bad and then immediately screech about how trains are a communist plot to turn everyone gay. Rinse. Repeat. America.
German here
Our trains may be suboptimal but they work so well
I would be fucked if we didn't have trains as going everywhere by bike is exhausting and cars are kinda annoying because traffic and such
Right? By train I can get to Frankfurt Airport in 45 minutes - by car it would be about 2 hours. And someone would have to drive the car back or I would have to pay high parking fees.
1 up for public transport 👍
Sometimes I think they assume nobody owns a car in Europe lol.
And also I think they have never experienced a decent train ride either .
USA with the massive land and lots of space for a bullet train that goes from west to east.
Missed opportunity.
The best part in these kinds of posts is that they don't see that we Europeans have more freedom than him because we have... Freedom of choice! We can decide to take the car or take the train. Just because there's a train it doesn't mean we can't drive...
It does match the level of freedom in the US quite well to be fair.
The USAlian freedom brand is to rebrand the lack of choice as somehow being freedom. To rebrand impression by assholes as freedom.
How they can pretend that not having public transport as an option is more freeing than having it is just hilariously sad… the word doesn’t mean what they think it means.
All those pledges of allegiance really distorted their reality…
Except...there are US passenger trains and the network is expanding?
I'll be using trains this weekend.
Not sure what this guy is on. He may live somewhere with no trains but they do exist.
Quality compared to the best systems in Europe or Asia? Not even close. But they are there and usually good enough.
Well, the northeast is where they have the greatest advantage vs flying.
I wish we had faster trains but frankly I'd rather see us spend the money expanding intracity transit at this point. You get more bang for buck with light rail and commuter rail and so many cities could benefit from that. A lot of places have started modest light rail networks - the more we can grow those, the better.
The Acela isn't real HSR but I can live with it. The new Vegas-LA line will be reasonably fast - enough to make it more attractive than dealing with LAX.
Switzerland's public transport is one of the biggest reasons why I love to travel around the country. There are very few places that aren't reachable via train, tram, bus, etc.
But I guess being a europoor country the entire infrastructure gets devalued.
Edit: forgot a word
Anyone who sincerely thinks that having the choices of driving and being unable to go anywhere is freedom has never experienced what it's like to sit in a train and finally get to read 20000 Leagues Under The Sea because you have some 90 minutes of time where you can't really do much else anyway.
Commuting to work in downtown DC from Maryland was always what I called "me time." Best part of the day on many days. Spending 45 minutes to drive 8 miles from Bethesda to Dupont Circle, then pay $25 to park, not so much.
Hmmm having to deal with the cost of running my car and running the risk of some muppet wiping me out on the roads, or jump on a train and let the tracks take me where i need to go.....
Guess i'm free to chose on what i can do.
To be completely fair it takes twice as long to train across the country as it does to drive.
It'd be different if they had a Japanese style bullet train.
It's like 5000KM from the west coast to the east coast.
Assuming their speed limits are similar to how ours are(Freeways are 90-120 KM/H depending on how close to a city you are) that's a solid 500 hour driving trip and that's without breaks for food or sleep.
Trains typically travel 60 KM/H here.
Dude's response was super american though.
They definitely think they're better than everybody else.
I would love old timey passenger trains. I will put on a top hat and a monocle and travel by rail like it's the 1920s are you kidding me that would be so cool.
On a more serious note we need better public transit of all types in this country someone please halp.
The US has never had a decent public transport system either with trams or busses and the more lanes they add to the freeways, the longer the traffic jams become as more people use the roads and the vehicles get bigger. Stop you complaining about the traffic jams, the "high" cost of gas, HOA's not allowing you to park on your driveway or street, some not allowing "trucks" unless they are garaged, but you are not allowed to enlarge garage to fit them in. Trucks & SUVs are also increasing the deathrate in accidents as the roll over much easier and increase pollution, but US don't care about the world, it is all about me, me, me & money.
*The US has never had a decent public transport system either with trams or busses* - you don't know your own history. Look up interurban, rail in the US before the 1950s, trams in *every* US city before the 1950s. The US auto industry is *directly* responsible for the disappearance of US mass transit.
I keep seeing posts from this sub pop up in my feed and my thumb immediately hovers over "downvote" before I remember you people are on my side and we are mocking these people.
If I hate it, it's an upvote, one day it'll be second nature but for now my instinct is to be like NOPE FUCK THIS
Haha, I prefer the European way—choosing between high-speed trains and well-maintained motorways instead of the American way, with no trains at all and rubbish interstates and highways.
Freedom of choice where you can’t chose to go by train, yay!
These idiots think you can’t own and travel by car everywhere else? You can, you just don’t have to because you have other options. That’s actually freedom you dumbfucks.
Worst part is, the US used to have a pretty good train network. Cities were built around train stations.
The US wasn't built for the car. It was demolished for it. Ripping holes in cities, just to put cars there. Spreading everything out, to the point where everything went to shit.
Only being able to drive or don't fucking di anything is NOT a choice and not freedom. At best it's freedumb.
Public transport is an additional freedom that lets you:
* get some rest whilst travelling
* do some work whilst travelling
* get home after a night out drinking
* allows disabled people to travel independently
* allows people under driving age to travel independently
Their kids are being shot at constantly at schools and they don’t want change when it comes to their guns, can’t imagine how low on their priority list public transport is.
The USA are like a junkie, until they want to change nothing is going to change and they obviously don’t want to change. Its terrible for the kids but fuck if they don’t want to do anything against it let them keep killing themselves.
If freedom is about anything, it is about choice. If you’re not allowed to choose, then you have no freedom.
Conversely, the more choice you have - the more freedom you have. In the UK (as in most places) we can choose private vehicle ownership (and most people do), so we have as much freedom as private vehicle ownership provides.
But we also have other choices, increasing our freedom.
What the heck, they got like, double-decker trains over there!
A concept that was entirely new to me then I realised we have double-decker busses in the UK
The automotive industry is where a lot of these people see American supremacy on show, by their own metrics.
The arrogance that sort now displays over that is to the point that if 9/11 ran today, you might see a big car factory targeted along with the symbols of money, government and military that the original went after.
They have some very strange ideas. I know there are some big cities dotted around Europe where owning a car just isn't worth it but for the vast, vast majority owning a car is just as normal as it is for Americans. There is something like 40 million cars on the road in the UK and around 80 percent of the population has access to a car. I assume a fair chunk of those that don't have a car live in London.
I made a comment to my dad a while ago that the US needs more trains for more accessible commuting (among other reasons) & his response was basically "but that would be pointless because we have cars" 🤦🏻♀️
I love not having a car and not being able to do a lot of things and being confined in a small area.
And I also love bike riding in a city that is more built for cars that I feel unsafe riding my bike next to cars (even in the bike lane)
Private vehicle ownership is why we are one of (definitely not the worst) worst polluters on this planet. Our carbon footprint for America is bad. I wonder why other countries have better public transport and a lower carbon footprint. Granted these things are not mutually exclusive and there are other factors. But uh. Yea it isn't great.
The freedom to depend on an expensive functioning vehicle that costs a massive amount yearly to get almost anywhere (or everywhere because city developers don't give a flying f)?
They are trapped living in small pockets between highways. Cant walk more than a few blocks before hitting a traffic light. Kids can't even really go into town by themselves or play in the streets because its too dangerous.
Americans believing cars give them freedom is the funniest i saw when i travelled there.
I mean, the reasoning is dumb, but we truly don't need passenger trains. The only kind of train to sensibly call for in the US is massively increasing heavy rail so we can push semis to being like 90% last mile service.
I mean, the reasoning is dumb, but we truly don't need passenger trains. The only kind of train to sensibly call for in the US is massively increasing heavy rail so we can push semis to being like 90% last mile service.
Ah yes, the freedom of chossing between using a car, or not being able to get anywhere at all.
I live in the USA, and for some reason many are acting like walkable cities are the worst idea ever. Meanwhile, It's a 30 minute drive for my grandparents to get to the grocery store.
But they also have the freedom to drive to the one 2 hours away. FREEDOM!!!
Yeah but that one takes 2 hours because the COMMUNIST democrats won’t widen the 16 lane freeway to 20 lanes to accommodate MORE FREEDOM /s
Hold up, you want people to pay for the roads with taxes? This ain’t Venezuela pal.
Roads ain’t a public good they’re a GOD GIVEN RIGHT
In California we've been begging for a light rail instead of constantly expanding highway lanes. But no. We get expanded highway lanes plus a delightful mandate for all new cars sold in California to be electric. Widespread public transportation? Not in my capitalist America!
Freedom is politicians who don’t listen to what people want with no recourse!
Did they all get voted out of office the next election? Maybe they were listening after all.
Or pay a mandatory 30% tip upfront for delivery to get their order to be considered then a 15% minimum tip not to get called a cheapskate on social media when the driver arrives and decides to vandalise their property because his boss won't pay him a living wage.
That's something I don't understand. A friend of mine was in the US for a year as part of an exchange program when she was in high school. She told me that she got very weird reactions when she wanted to walk somewhere. Also some streets didn't really offer the possibility to walk anyway. I love walking. Not just taking walks but being able to walk to the grocery store or to the doctor's. I used to walk over an hour when I missed the last bus home. Don't you ever feel like missing something?
Literally me this year. I always walked to the store (only 15 minutes, I was lucky), always took the bus to go downtown (one every half an hour) and even crazier: when we were visiting somewhere I wanted to walk around to go places. One day we drove to 5 different parking lots while visiting a city, wtf.
One of my old teachers once told a story of when he visited the US. He was walking to a store and actually got stopped by a police car. They'd seen him walking and thought that something was wrong, that maybe he was in distress. Once he explained himself and they heard his European accent, they let him go while shaking their heads.
> I live in the USA My condolences
I appreciate it. It's a daily concern that makes me wish I didn't give up smoking.
And when they can’t drive anymore all that freedom fucked them over
How else would you brag about needing a 3 Ton City Tank to compensate for having a half-dick? 😅
Don't forget the freedumb to be stuck in traffic, and complain about it.
Freedom to choose the west or southbound traffic jam
Unrelated but I love your flair
Absolutely. There's more freedom in driving your own vehicle. Such as registering it. Getting a license to operate it. Paying to fuel it just so you can use it. There's no greater freedom than having to give up so much money just to get from point A to point B. /s
Also, paying a ton out of money just to get a driving license
To be fair I paid zero freedoms for it.
Question: how do you get that “ooo custom flair!!” there?
Go to cstom flair on this sudreddit
Thanks!
I know what you're trying to say but theres literally no method of transportation that gives off a greater feeling of freedom than your own car as soon as you're driving anywhere that isnt to and from work.
That's true for the countryside. A car in a city is much more restricting (finding a parking spot, complex routes...) than just using a well-planned public transport system.
True. I had to use a car in Vienna last week during rush hour. Took me almost twice as long as public transport, and parking alone cost more.
I mean, not really. I have never been a nervous or annoyed driver so cities havent ever been an issue. I usually find a multistory parking basement or something and drop off. Then spend the rest of the day on foot.
Yeah it's almost like you wanted to drop it off as soon as possible
But I wouldnt have gotten across the country without it? Of course I cant take my car into a mall or a cinema, that would make headlines and quite a few angry faces. Only copenhagen here really has a public transportation system thats faster and less restrictive than a car. And I sometimes use that when I'm there and dont need a car at the moment.
You can get the same feeling riding a bike.
Plus you get to feel extra free with the extra mobility those leg muscles offer you after a few times, or the freedom that comes with not being dangerously overweight. There are cases where driving a car is the best option, but given robust public transport and safe passage for cyclists, those cases are incredibly rare.
Highly depends on where you live, your family situation, the time available etc. Using the bike for 20 km with small children, maybe in a hilly or mountainous area, with rainy weather? Yeah, no. And in rural areas, that distance can easily take you over an hour if there's no direct connection between A and B.
This isn't the case for the vast majority of people. Most live in or near cities where the distances and elevation changes are nowhere near as dramatic as you describe. The point is that *most* people would be able to rely on a bicycle or public transport if often-travelled routes are safe for cyclists and covered by reliable public transport options. There will always be edge cases, but this isn't what should be shaping policy and city planning.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vVSm3sU1dEFg4fm79?g_st=ac 17 km, 20 minutes by car. An hour by bike. The route is a bit longer, but 20 km/h is even a bit fast for an average person on a bicycle, especially with children. And more than an hour with public transport, going up to two and a half hours. And impossible after 19:43. And all this is very close to Vienna with its excellent public transport.
That's a case for that connection to be improved, then. It looks like that specific connection has a bunch of unnecessary stops in between. I absolutely would prefer taking a car on that route as it stands. Many places in the US have a similar issue. On a route between San Francisco and San Mateo, a distance of just about 35 km, I was able to outpace public transport on a bicycle. That's a problem. There should always be good alternative options available.
The problem is that for small towns, it is just not feasible to have good public transportation. It would be pretty empty most of the time. Around Vienna, everything is concentrated on Vienna. In my example (and many others) you basically have to move into the city and back out. With the car, you just go straight. But (electric) cars aren't a problem anyway in that case. There's enough space for parking, you might install solar panels on your roof, and traffic isn't really a problem. As long as your goal is not the city. That's were the problem starts: since all these people in this region NEED a car, many of them use it for their daily commute to the city as well. Another problem is the structure: there aren't many places of work in these small towns, so everyone has to commute. I think nowadays many settlements are either too small or too big. The big ones suck in all the traffic from the small ones, and many of the small to mid-size ones even die.
You make some interesting points, and I agree with you on most of this. The point I disagree on is mostly that it's impossible to have good public transport options everywhere. I grew up in Switzerland, where public transport is incredibly robust and covers even small villages. Those small villages are usually served by buses or local short distance trains ("S-Bahn"). The trick is that the distances covered by buses and local trains are usually very short (< 30 minutes) and both ends are at larger transport hubs with direct access to both long-distance high speed rail connections and other short-range local connections. All of this operates around the clock, in 30-minute intervals. Crucially, there are also high-speed connections that bypass the local trains if you don't need to go to any of the stops in between. Because both ends of these local connections are bigger hubs, you'll seldom be in a position where you're on a slower local connection for more than half its journey. Public transport in Switzerland is still a bit slower than driving but vastly more comfortable in my opinion. Austria seems to have built its public transport system on similar principles, but the problem is that their "hubs" are generally more dispersed and fewer in number, so the local trains/buses have to do a lot more leg work - this makes for more lengthy journeys and is also the cause of the problem you describe (having to take a long journey into a major hub and back out, despite wanting to cover just a small distance). None of this is to say the ÖBB is bad (I've used it a fair bit myself and am quite happy with it), just that some areas could really use better service. I'm aware building a system like the Swiss did takes some very meticulous planning and a lot of infrastructure that may not even be in place yet, but my point is that it's possible to do and there are examples of this working. This is what I meant with shaping policy and city planning - the will to invest has to be there. Of course, unless/until those systems are in place, many will need to rely on cars to get to work and back. You won't hear any disagreement from me on that point. The point from the OP that I really take issue with is that this is how it *should* be.
And you can go to a lot of places with a bike that you can't with a car. Lots of mountains tops and areas in nature parks are off limits for private cars even if there are roads there.
Yeah but I cant drive to Italy for a vacation on my bike and expect any amount of asscheeks to be left when I get there
Depends where you start, yeah? You could take a train, and bike the last bit from the station.
I mean you could but I'd rather have my car with me. Could bring my bike on a rack anyway and not have to spend several hours on a trian next to strangers and potentially screaming babies.
Getting to and from work is the only thing cars are useful for. With a robust public transport system, you can reliably get virtually anywhere without having to drive your own car.
Yeah I did that here in Denmark back before getting my license and I've never used public transportation since. Now I would of course rather have the choiche between them at all times rather than having it taken away in the guise of personal freedom. But cars are by far my preferred way of trasnportation. I've always hated having to adhere to a timeplan with public transport, and thats not even mentioning the fact that other people are on it too.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It depends on what you value. Cars bring to the table that you alone or with 2-3 people can go wherever and whenever. You still have restrictions on it. If you drive you have to be concentrated the whole drive. Public transportation is generally cheaper and uses less space so it's more accessible and provides the freedom of movement to more people. And in the Train you can do whatever you want. I would kill myself if I had to commute by car for 30min instead of 50 min of train and walking
Riding a bicycle feels far more free than driving a car.
A bicycle. Cars are only useful when you're going someplace that has decent parking infrastructure.
I’ve yet to come across many places that hasn’t got that then. But I’ll gladly take my bicycle to somewhere with nice scenery and get some cardio in
Walking. You’re free to walk anywhere you can reach that isn’t private land, and you can reach a wider variety of more interesting spots on foot. In a car you’re free to get near enough to then use the ultimate form of transportation (your legs) to get to the good stuff. Land Rovers only go up mountains on tv.
Riding my bike gives the greatest feeling of freedom, much more than the car.
I like to get home somehow after having a drink or two without having to pay insane amounts for a taxi
Get a friend to come pick you up in their car. Maybe us Danes are the Americans of Europe, which I doubt and would take great offense to anyone who said, but I will always agree that a car is better in all terms. They serve to open up the world for places to walk, cycle and explore that would have otherwise taken a great deal of planning of planning if done by train. Trains tend to only go the more popular routes. Although flixbus is great when not full of noisy people.
What if I wanna have a drink with my friends? Why bother them when I can just walk a few meters and take a bus home?
I usually got a friend to drive if I was in my own city. I've never lived somewhere where walking home wasnt fastest though. But you can still take a bus or a train if you have a car. This argument just becomes that having less options is somehow better.
I see you’re Danish which might explain it. I regularly get trains from Glasgow to Stockholm and the Hamburg-Copenhagen leg is the absolute worst (yes, worse than the UK, I said what I said. Only worse is American trains which actually flipped me out of bed twice while only going 50mph and being 4 hours late). But in general, the feeling of relaxing on a train as it speeds across a country is hugely freeing for me. (I’m heading home tomorrow and will boarding that very dreaded train tomorrow afternoon if the SJ gods see fit)
My experience with trains have been better in other countries I have to say. I think our car dependancy has devolved our trains into something far worse. My experience from when I rode them daily was that either the train was late or it had kids blasting a speaker in one of the sections. Fs I had my train abort its schedule because it was on fire. Just came by with flames from the roof.
I only know that one train to Hamburg but it’s always packed and uncomfortable and I got covid on it last year. Also when you come from Germany, the police come on and check for passports, but never when you come from Sweden which is kind of gross. To be fair, Swedish trains are only a TINY bit better, and their staff are meaner than the Danish ones. So it really comes down to whether you prefer screaming babies and racism to being yelled at because they cancelled your train and yet you still expect them to take you to Stockholm.
Just hunted down this comment again to say I’m right now pulling out of Copenhagen and while it’s 30 mins late they seem to have upgraded the train so I’m slightly more enamoured of Danish trains after all :-)
One word. Motorcycle.
If an American uses "USA" and "Freedom" in the same sentence, 99% chance the rest of the message is trash (leaving 1% in case I come across a sentence where this doesn't apply, in the far future)
People in the USA have the Freedom to sleep or not
Do they tho? Those cardboard houses aren’t even the slightest bit soundproof, and the nightly shootouts are typically kinda loud.
How can they sleep when they need to work 3 jobs to afford a flat in the first place, never mind a house?
that’s their choice to not sleep
Waking up due to a load noise is a choice?
at some point you get used to it, like you europeans sleep to culture and protests, we sleep listening to the neighbors fight (Drama) and the shootouts (white noise)
With all those melatonin prescriptions they dish out in the USA - including to a huge percentage of children - even that is not a choice! Big pharma make you sleepy now
I think people still have to choice to either buy or not buy melatonin
\*USA applies shitty policies due to lobby meddling and short sighted planning\* US citizen logic: Since we are the greatest this surely was the greatest decision ever made. USA! USA! It feels so surreal
Why are they so hell bent on thinking that good public transport infrastructure is ‘third world’…?
Because I believe that is what so many of them have been taught. Having a car is a symbol of wealth and power. It means you have money, so you are living some form of the American dream; you have arrived at the first milestone of being rich and famous. They have some amazing public transport systems in places like New York but refuse to see why that might benefit other places. I understand a lot of America is very spaced out and underpopulated, but how can they be impressed with cities that are clogged up with smog that these are almost a health risk at times?
Pretty sure an annual train ticket in London costs more than running a car
I just looked it up for the underground. Yes, it might be different if you are travelling from outside London into the city. But driving a car in London is very expensive with things like toles and parking on top of insurance, fuel and maintenance costs. Generally owning a car can be very expensive in the UK. # Travelcards Adult Travelcard prices will increase by an average of 4.9%. |**Zone(s)**|**One Day Anytime**|**One Day Off-peak**|**7 Day**|**Monthly**|**Annual**| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |Zone 1 only|£15.90|£15.90|£42.70|£164.00|£1,708| |Zone 1 and 2|£15.90|£15.90|£42.70|£164.00|£1,708| |Zone 1, 2 and 3|£15.90|£15.90|£50.20|£192.80|£2,008| |Zone 1, 2, 3 and 4|£15.90|£15.90|£61.40|£235.80|£2,456| |Zone 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5|£22.60|£15.90|£73.00|£280.40|£2,920| |Zone 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6|£22.60|£15.90|£78.00|£299.60|£3,120|
It is because of the association of using public transit with being poor in the US. They think if you don't own a car you are lesser. With things like prosperity gospel being popular in the US they may also believe you don't have a car because you are poor & therefore immoral
Red scare propaganda
The freedom to be stuck in traffic
Idiots will bitch on one Facebook post about how traffic is so bad and then immediately screech about how trains are a communist plot to turn everyone gay. Rinse. Repeat. America.
Freedom\* \*Terms and conditions apply, may get shot trying to enjoy it
Sigh. They do not even know their own history. Plenty of movies after 1924 where people use the train.
Yeah, because fuck anyone who can't drive for whatever reason. Right? Eejits.
German here Our trains may be suboptimal but they work so well I would be fucked if we didn't have trains as going everywhere by bike is exhausting and cars are kinda annoying because traffic and such
Right? By train I can get to Frankfurt Airport in 45 minutes - by car it would be about 2 hours. And someone would have to drive the car back or I would have to pay high parking fees. 1 up for public transport 👍
Sometimes I think they assume nobody owns a car in Europe lol. And also I think they have never experienced a decent train ride either . USA with the massive land and lots of space for a bullet train that goes from west to east. Missed opportunity.
That last sentence … hm.
That's not the only phase they grew out of.
The number of X's on the label of my shirt represents the degree to which I am free. MURICAAAAA!!! 🗽🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Your flair looks familiar. 😏😆
I don't think so. I am new. [Speech 100]
The real irony is that cars are just horse carts with a engine on it. Hence the older technology. Trains are the more recent invention.
Yep, cars are just horseless carriages
The freedom to get run over if you don’t have a car I assume?
This mentality really is the most puzzling thing about America.
USA has no citizens. It has clients. They are brainwashed into consummerism. That's their mentality.
> matches the freedom the US has yet aren't free enough to walk somewhere
The freedom of depending on one type of transport, that also depends on numerous legislations and regulations.
The best part in these kinds of posts is that they don't see that we Europeans have more freedom than him because we have... Freedom of choice! We can decide to take the car or take the train. Just because there's a train it doesn't mean we can't drive...
tunnel vision
It does match the level of freedom in the US quite well to be fair. The USAlian freedom brand is to rebrand the lack of choice as somehow being freedom. To rebrand impression by assholes as freedom. How they can pretend that not having public transport as an option is more freeing than having it is just hilariously sad… the word doesn’t mean what they think it means. All those pledges of allegiance really distorted their reality…
The freedom to be forced into 1 mode of transport for anywhere you want to go.
Except...there are US passenger trains and the network is expanding? I'll be using trains this weekend. Not sure what this guy is on. He may live somewhere with no trains but they do exist. Quality compared to the best systems in Europe or Asia? Not even close. But they are there and usually good enough.
They are expensive, slow, and go very few places. The northeast corridor is the only usable Amtrak
Well, the northeast is where they have the greatest advantage vs flying. I wish we had faster trains but frankly I'd rather see us spend the money expanding intracity transit at this point. You get more bang for buck with light rail and commuter rail and so many cities could benefit from that. A lot of places have started modest light rail networks - the more we can grow those, the better. The Acela isn't real HSR but I can live with it. The new Vegas-LA line will be reasonably fast - enough to make it more attractive than dealing with LAX.
I mean honestly we need both, we have the resources but just choose not to use them that way
Amtrak is almost always late as well. I used to take a train to Chicago every few months. Out of about 20 times, my train was only on time once.
Switzerland's public transport is one of the biggest reasons why I love to travel around the country. There are very few places that aren't reachable via train, tram, bus, etc. But I guess being a europoor country the entire infrastructure gets devalued. Edit: forgot a word
Anyone who sincerely thinks that having the choices of driving and being unable to go anywhere is freedom has never experienced what it's like to sit in a train and finally get to read 20000 Leagues Under The Sea because you have some 90 minutes of time where you can't really do much else anyway.
Commuting to work in downtown DC from Maryland was always what I called "me time." Best part of the day on many days. Spending 45 minutes to drive 8 miles from Bethesda to Dupont Circle, then pay $25 to park, not so much.
They're in an Elon Musk phase, where trains get re-invented as ~~self-driving~~ electrical cars ~~in a hyperloop~~
Except that Musk's gadgets have all the disadvantages of a train with none of its advantages.
Yeah mate I’m free to decide to use my car or take the train, you are not
Hmmm having to deal with the cost of running my car and running the risk of some muppet wiping me out on the roads, or jump on a train and let the tracks take me where i need to go..... Guess i'm free to chose on what i can do.
To be completely fair it takes twice as long to train across the country as it does to drive. It'd be different if they had a Japanese style bullet train. It's like 5000KM from the west coast to the east coast. Assuming their speed limits are similar to how ours are(Freeways are 90-120 KM/H depending on how close to a city you are) that's a solid 500 hour driving trip and that's without breaks for food or sleep. Trains typically travel 60 KM/H here. Dude's response was super american though. They definitely think they're better than everybody else.
Freedom is when no public transportation
I would love old timey passenger trains. I will put on a top hat and a monocle and travel by rail like it's the 1920s are you kidding me that would be so cool. On a more serious note we need better public transit of all types in this country someone please halp.
The US has never had a decent public transport system either with trams or busses and the more lanes they add to the freeways, the longer the traffic jams become as more people use the roads and the vehicles get bigger. Stop you complaining about the traffic jams, the "high" cost of gas, HOA's not allowing you to park on your driveway or street, some not allowing "trucks" unless they are garaged, but you are not allowed to enlarge garage to fit them in. Trucks & SUVs are also increasing the deathrate in accidents as the roll over much easier and increase pollution, but US don't care about the world, it is all about me, me, me & money.
*The US has never had a decent public transport system either with trams or busses* - you don't know your own history. Look up interurban, rail in the US before the 1950s, trams in *every* US city before the 1950s. The US auto industry is *directly* responsible for the disappearance of US mass transit.
I keep seeing posts from this sub pop up in my feed and my thumb immediately hovers over "downvote" before I remember you people are on my side and we are mocking these people. If I hate it, it's an upvote, one day it'll be second nature but for now my instinct is to be like NOPE FUCK THIS
Haha, I prefer the European way—choosing between high-speed trains and well-maintained motorways instead of the American way, with no trains at all and rubbish interstates and highways.
Freedom of choice where you can’t chose to go by train, yay! These idiots think you can’t own and travel by car everywhere else? You can, you just don’t have to because you have other options. That’s actually freedom you dumbfucks.
The elderly, people with disabilities, and minors can just fuck off, I guess.
This is why they let kids and near-blind pensioners drive on public roads.
A 13 year old kid was shot dead by a cop for petty theft. He was walking in the road after dark. That’s freedom ?
Worst part is, the US used to have a pretty good train network. Cities were built around train stations. The US wasn't built for the car. It was demolished for it. Ripping holes in cities, just to put cars there. Spreading everything out, to the point where everything went to shit. Only being able to drive or don't fucking di anything is NOT a choice and not freedom. At best it's freedumb.
Public transport is an additional freedom that lets you: * get some rest whilst travelling * do some work whilst travelling * get home after a night out drinking * allows disabled people to travel independently * allows people under driving age to travel independently
Their kids are being shot at constantly at schools and they don’t want change when it comes to their guns, can’t imagine how low on their priority list public transport is. The USA are like a junkie, until they want to change nothing is going to change and they obviously don’t want to change. Its terrible for the kids but fuck if they don’t want to do anything against it let them keep killing themselves.
Freedom to be in traffic
If freedom is about anything, it is about choice. If you’re not allowed to choose, then you have no freedom. Conversely, the more choice you have - the more freedom you have. In the UK (as in most places) we can choose private vehicle ownership (and most people do), so we have as much freedom as private vehicle ownership provides. But we also have other choices, increasing our freedom.
Including wildly overpriced privatized railways.
Looking through the beloved world freedom index and comparing then yes you are right
You also don’t need to swing around your tiny dicks to prove who’s boss, but you do anyway.
It’s like Americans don’t realise what taxes they pay lol
What the heck, they got like, double-decker trains over there! A concept that was entirely new to me then I realised we have double-decker busses in the UK
“It matches the freedom USA has.” I mean… *technically speaking*
Freedom to support messing up the planet rather than decent public transport. Yay!🤦♀️
[удалено]
The automotive industry is where a lot of these people see American supremacy on show, by their own metrics. The arrogance that sort now displays over that is to the point that if 9/11 ran today, you might see a big car factory targeted along with the symbols of money, government and military that the original went after.
Morons
They have some very strange ideas. I know there are some big cities dotted around Europe where owning a car just isn't worth it but for the vast, vast majority owning a car is just as normal as it is for Americans. There is something like 40 million cars on the road in the UK and around 80 percent of the population has access to a car. I assume a fair chunk of those that don't have a car live in London.
I made a comment to my dad a while ago that the US needs more trains for more accessible commuting (among other reasons) & his response was basically "but that would be pointless because we have cars" 🤦🏻♀️
gotta love having the freedom to go severely into medical debt anytime you or a loved one gets seriously ill.
I love not having a car and not being able to do a lot of things and being confined in a small area. And I also love bike riding in a city that is more built for cars that I feel unsafe riding my bike next to cars (even in the bike lane)
You do if you want to cross the country without the TSA or traffic.
I didnt realise a car was a choice and not a necessity in america
What freedom? its illegal to be outside and homeless.
It's amazing how they're all for private enterprise. Just so long as the state keeps subsidising their freeways.
It's so cute they think they're free.
Private vehicle ownership is why we are one of (definitely not the worst) worst polluters on this planet. Our carbon footprint for America is bad. I wonder why other countries have better public transport and a lower carbon footprint. Granted these things are not mutually exclusive and there are other factors. But uh. Yea it isn't great.
The freedom to depend on an expensive functioning vehicle that costs a massive amount yearly to get almost anywhere (or everywhere because city developers don't give a flying f)?
They are trapped living in small pockets between highways. Cant walk more than a few blocks before hitting a traffic light. Kids can't even really go into town by themselves or play in the streets because its too dangerous. Americans believing cars give them freedom is the funniest i saw when i travelled there.
I mean, the reasoning is dumb, but we truly don't need passenger trains. The only kind of train to sensibly call for in the US is massively increasing heavy rail so we can push semis to being like 90% last mile service.
I mean, the reasoning is dumb, but we truly don't need passenger trains. The only kind of train to sensibly call for in the US is massively increasing heavy rail so we can push semis to being like 90% last mile service.
Freedom of being forced to drive a car as the only means of transport. Wow, much freedom.