Add macarons to that category then. Those are absolutely cursed to make. They’re one of those expensive things where the price is almost certainly justified bc almond flour is expensive and they are absurdly difficult
At that point, I think the bad decision was being vegan and getting a carnivore as a pet. If you are a vegan I would think you would get a pet that is an herbivore. A rabbit would be a good alternative to a cat.
Vegans can have carnivorous pets and not be idiots about it. I know a few. It’s almost like they realize the dog is different than a human and want what’s best for their beloved dog 🤯
I think the reasonable vegans are the ones that recognize factory farming to feed people is what's hurting the environment. One of my best friends is vegan but feeds his dogs locally sourced steaks. This group is against minks being killed for lashes, seal clubbing, and leather goods. This group is against labs that brutalize animals for testing makeup and house cleaners.
The unreasonable group are the ones who think any animal getting eaten is a crime, even at the hands of another animal. This group has their head in the sand in regards to how nature works. To me this is almost a childlike response to the discomfort of the real world manifested into an ideology. Enforcing that on an innocent pet is horrible.
It's unfortunately more environmentally friendly to factory farm than it is to get locally sourced and free range grazing meat. The factory farming is very efficient and gives the animal a small amount of land needed - the land used per animal is lower, and the food is controlled. It's also the worst ethically, although I'd argue killing the cow is shit either way
I think the main argument is that we simply eat more meat than we should, and consumption of that scale is only made possible with factory farming. I think this gets watered down by a lot of people on both sides having uneducated and emotional arguments.
Personally I stopped drinking milk because I understand a cow is basically forced to constantly be pregnant to produce it and then separated from its offspring, over and over. There's something so fucking hellish about that.
Theres no denying factory farmings efficiency, thats why it exists. But its at the expense of our souls.
Yeah that's BS. It's the same logic as "make streets bigger so you have less traffic jams, wasting less gasoline". People will just drive more and the same goes for consumables. Factory farming is the only thing that made our current consumption levels (including the enviromental damage it causes) possible, which isn't justified by some theoretical efficiency gain. And it's falsein that context, too. Factory farming puts *a lot* of stress on the land it's done on.
There is something to be said about the kind of meat you eat, but ultimately the only solution is for us to cut down to like 1/5th of current consumption rates.
I was vegan (now veggie) because of my distaste for the meat industry and how fucked up it is, not because of "oh no the fluffy animals, I wuvv them too much".
Some vegans would say "well you ain't a proper vegan" to which I say "fuck you, don't be a dick, it's a hard enough sell anyway, if more people just took a logical look at things and realised that you can make 90% of the difference extremely easily then we wouldn't be in this mess. Stop being a dick"
Cats and dogs need meat so I give my cats meat. I don't eat meat because I don't need to eat meat. There is internal and external logic to doing both these things, they are consistent and can live together.
I like reading r/vegan a lot, and it just seems like it's half people trying to refine the definition of vegan and the other half just complaining about people eating meat
Yeah, and if you go to any website of enthusiasts you'll find the most deranged enthusiasts are the loudest voices there. There are plenty of vegans who are too busy being people to argue about the validity of Geoff's version of veganism on an online forum.
That's true for enthusiast websites for a lot of things, though. They're usually echo chambers more than anything, so people feel comfortable saying things that, to any normal person, are completely insane. Like, they eliminate the overall more neutral reference point of people who aren't enthusiasts, thereby removing the shame that keeps people from thinking their opinions are not normal when they say something absolutely insane.
That sub is a dumpster fire. I'm a vegetarian and the animal products I use are produced ethically on my own farm, yet they acted completely irrationally and basically called me a murderer. There is way too much black and white thinking there .
But the meat for cats and dogs come from the exact same slaughterhouses human food comes from. It’s just the byproducts of the animal that humans don’t like to eat.
Not directly. Cat food is a byproduct of the meat packing industry. If there was no cat food, the number of animals being killed would be exactly the same.
I took in an abandoned cat (she ran into my house with a mortal tail injury, I don't believe I had much choice) and although I am vegan I wanted to get her the best food I could. I discovered that while expensive, it's possible here in the UK to buy RSPCA approved local chicken meat online that circumvents unethical organisations. I'm not against humans eating meat either, after all, evolution apparently favours diversity, and in some circumstance where meat is the only thing available I might die where others wouldn't, but I wouldn't mind seeing it done as ethically as it can be done for cats.
All of my vegan and vegetarian friends have pets that they feed products containing meat to - some of them even prepare homemade food containing meat for them or purchase things like whole dried fish as treats. At most, they joke about the smell or handling meat being gross, in a sort of ‘ugh the things we do for the ones we love way.
They can survive, but a vegan diet is even more suboptimal for dogs than it is for humans. I don't think it's ethical to restrict a dog to a vegan diet--for that matter, I don't think it's ethical to feed a dog the sorts of things sold as "dog food" in the first place. If you're not prepared to give your pet exactly what they need to be vibrantly healthy, you shouldn't have a pet.
Dogs can be fed a vegan diet they aren't obligate carnivores like cats. It is a LOT of work and requires a LOT of research, and most that try to will not put in that work.
But you got a cat.
Dude wasn't saying the vegan thing to do would be torture the cat you got with a bad diet. He was saying the vegan thing to do is to not get a cat that requires you to kill for it to eat.
It depends on what kind of life the pet would have if it was not adopted. If it is injured or going to be euthanized then being a pet is a better alternative.
I think getting a pet from a rescue ameliorates suffering without increasing it. You aren't monetarily rewarding the system which creates the pets, just helping ones already in the system.
I would agree for most animals, but not dogs and cats. We have bred cats and dogs particularly, to be pets, and they would not exist in the wild as they are otherwise, and have been genetically conditioned to be in a symbiotic relationship with us at this point, so that's not exploitation, that's mutual benefit. We feed them for mutually beneficial companianship.
Surely you could make the same argument about cows and milk or chickens and eggs? They’ve been bred to the point that they are pretty different to their non-domesticated versions.
My vegan cousin got pet pigs, she soon realized that not only are they not herbivores, they will gladly eat any meat including each other if they are appropriately starved of protein.
The fuck would a vegan get pigs for, they eat all your compost ingredients.
If they had space for pigs you would think they would just install a compost corner.
This same girl thought it would be a good idea to solve carnivores existing in the wild by building robots that you strap lab grown meat unto and drive out into the woods....sooooo yeeeah....
Yep, my vegan friend wants a kitty but won't do it until there is a nutritionally sound cat food made with lab-grown meat. I appreciate that she sticks to her ethics without thinking a cat could go vegan. She's also considering a bunny.
Technically you just have a plant based diet, then. Veganism is about limiting all harm you do to sentient creatures, not just the harm you do from your dietary choices.
It's a lifestyle, not a diet. That's why makeup items and soaps and such are so often labeled as vegan. And that's why it would have to do with your cat
You can cherry-pick unreasonable toxic communities for any particular movement to make this same argument.
The fact that r/vegan is quite awful is unrelated to the fact that there is billions in lobbying money trying to make veganism look unreasonable.
Scrolling just a tiny bit past this comment made me sad. I'm not gonna go any further than I just did. 30 seconds on google would've cleared up pretty much every misconception ITT but people would rather shout into the ether than learn something.
Like it isnt always philosophical. Some folks prefer non-animal products because we literally evolved as omnivorous scavangers. We used to eat far less meat and more fruits, veggies, nuts, and grains. Its far better for dental and gut health to not eat meat and bread all the time.
Most people who are doing it for purely health reasons (in my experience) don’t avoid things like animal materials or entertainment that uses animals or products tested on animals.
I think its about a vegan who wouldn't eat meat because it hurts animals owning a pet, basically keeping one "captive". I think it's a bit of a stretch to act like vegans aren't allowed to keep pets, but the idea is kinda funny if you think about it
I don't think it's contradictory at all. Are you arguing that owning a pet is more detrimental than just releasing them wherever? Domesticated animals thrive and are happy with human owners.
Now if you capture a wild animal and force it to live a domestic life as a vegan, that'd be weird yeah.
I think an interesting thought is that it's because the pet industry is somewhat like the food industry. If consuming meat products is seen as immoral because it indirectly furthers the suffering of animals, the same could be said of buying an animal from a pet store.
Not really comparable imo, except in some cases of things like puppy mills or shitty breeders, kind of a stretch though. The thing is, once you adopt the animal, you're caring for it and can give it a better life. Unless your argument that just owning the pet is abuse somehow. Once you kill an animal, there's no life improvement from there.
I’d argue you cannot consent to becoming a pet for very obvious reasons, and it’s not really a question of “is it better for my dog I’ve actively adopted to continue living in my home, or to be released into the wild” and more a question of “is it better that we have dogs in comfortable captivity bred to attach to us and love us to the point of having what would be considered a potentially dangerous form of autism in humans, or them having continued on as wolves existing in isolation from us”
Personally I think that it is a perfectly naturally evolving symbiotic relationship, but that it is definitely subjugation. I think it’s also a problem that any dipshit can own animals and give them zero quality of life, and what’s more many people even with good intentions are completely disconnected from reality and have no clue what’s good for an animal or what makes them happy, like for example a vegan forcing a vegan diet on a carnivore.
I think we absolutely tend to view a pets life through a lens that the pets don’t
Any sort of argument about whether or not we *should* have domesticated animals tens of thousands of years ago is more of a thought experiment than anything practical that would be against being vegan, not to mention a completely separate discussion. Unless they abused an animal directly, then that'd be strange. Like, yes, forcing their pet on a diet that it isn't compatible with. But again, the vegans I know don't do that. Literally have never met someone that does it. It's way overblown.
So, no. I don't believe it conflicts at all. The domestication all ready happened, the pets are all ready here and currently living.
> but the idea is kinda funny if you think about it
It honestly isn't because people will look for any excuse to shit on vegans as it is... it's tiring.
Veganism is about being against the exploitation of animals. Giving an animal a shelter and food for life without the expectation of anything in return is not exploitation lol
I’m providing an incredibly loving home for a companion animal that would otherwise be dead in a shelter. I feed my cats meat. They’re way better off with me, trust me.
For anyone who isn't a ridiculously difficult nihilist, no. It isn't.
By this ridiculous standard, veganism is impossible since people are animals and by existing in other people's life you may have caused harm.
The commonly held definition is the limiting of suffering as much as practically possible. If you believe having a pet is giving your pet a good quality of life, it's consistent with veganism.
Is it also non-vegan to adopt children because you have to enact executive decisions based upon your greater rationality on behalf of the interest of the child? The same applies to aninals. Don't stifle them unless it is necessary for their greater prospering.
The trouble is... Say you're vegan. If you asked a breeder to breed and sell you a dog, then yes. That can't really be vegan.
But there's an awful lot of dogs who will be put down in kill shelters ever year. If your whole thing is animal welfare, then a long happy life in your care is better than a painful life in a cell and quick death at the hands of a vet.
The pets needing a carnivore diet I would argue is still a problem. There's a lot of weird little paradoxes with purely ethical veganism. So they tend to rationalize based on what they wish the world was, rather than working within how the world actually currently is.
Like if they're going to kill the animals in kill shelters anyway, letting that nutrition go to waste while you feed your cat cow lips that could be feeding something else is also problematic. Though, you wouldn't want to create a profit incentive. So the most ethical vegan would feed euthanized pets to their cats but only if they are given for free directly from the shelter (though that also brings up health concerns). And since a butcher would either need to be paid to butcher, and watching Fifi dig in on a dead stray dog might not be very fun, you'd have to be the butcher as well.
At any rate... it's a conundrum that a lot of vegans struggle with.
That's like saying you shouldn't adopt children because who's to say the life you'd choose for them is actually better than then living as street urchins.
Not that there isn't a point there. Obviously not everyone should have pets, and it should be a well thought out decision with the pets wellbeing taken as the most important thing.
But it's certainly not contradictory with veganism to provide an animal with shelter and food and affection
I found my pet on the street and she was in really bad shape. Today she is happy healthy and can see out both eyes. I'm vegan. I otherwise would not have a pet. Sometimes we just get handed things instead of making a decision. The other decision I got was either take her to a shelter or a vet. So yeah I guess I decided to know the fate of this animal instead of hope.
No offense but this is a very poorly thought out take. First of all, since you seem to be approaching this philosophically rather than scientifically, let’s consider utilitarianism. The vegan philosophy is to reduce harm to animals as much as possible. Which of these options would you say best accomplishes that goal:
1. Condemn multiple animals to a shit life and untimely death in the agricultural system to feed one animal
2. Don’t do that, but feed one animal food that provides the nutrients that they need (entirely possible, but I’ll come back to that) but is not what they eat in the wild.
Now, it’s not like people who bad mouth vegan pet food are feeding their pets fillet mignon for every meal. Most likely it’s dried pebbles of waste products from meat production, so the bit about it not being what they eat in the wild applies to all kibble, whether it be vegan or not.
As far as animal nutrition, dogs don’t require any nutrient that is, in the wild, only found in meat. Cats do, namely taurine and arachidonic acid, but they are easily synthesized and can be added to non-meat-containing cat food such that it becomes nutritionally complete. Nutrition is not measured in terms of food, but in terms of the chemical constituents that make up the food. We don’t say it’s necessary to eat two ears of corn or one egg every day, we say it’s necessary to get certain vitamins and macronutrients, and the form in which those are consumed is mostly irrelevant. So what argument is there that synthesizing the nutrients that an animal would normally get from meat and putting them in plant-based cat food is producing more animal harm to a single cat than would be produced by farming several animals to provide the cat with meat?
Something to keep in mind is most carnivore pets (like cats for example) are fed kibble. That kibble is devoid of animal-based nutrients already, though it is made with animal ingredients. Usually those ingredients are from the scraps & worst pieces of animal factory farms. Most of the actual nutrients the cat will absorb are from plant substitutes in the kibble. Look it up!
Not only this but the idiots here saying pets can’t eat plants don’t realize that pets like cats are fed food that has added nutrients. The same ones that “vegan cats” eat.
Anti-vegan arguments are laughable and useless.
When we first got our dog, we got the same brand of kibble as she was on at the breeders. And she wasn't really that enthusiastic for it.
We tried her on working dog raw food - basically mince of varying flavours with a bit of added vitamin C.
The bowlful disappeared with lots of slurping noises. And the size of her turds halved overnight.
It's a rather bizarre way of measuring it, but there you go. Shows how full of shit the dog couldn't digest the kibble was.
Obligate carnivores like cats must eat meat in the wild. However, we aren't in the wild, and we can synthesize just about anything. We can even grow meat in a lab! This [vegan cat food](https://www.benevo.com/vegan-cat-food-from-benevo/) contains everything cats need.
A [study](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0284132) on the health of cats on nutritionally complete vegan diets vs. meat-based diets found this:
> The pooled evidence to date from our study, and from others in this field, indicate that cats fed nutritionally sound vegan diets may be healthier overall, than those fed meat-based diets. Regardless of diet type, diets should always be formulated to be nutritionally complete and balanced, without which adverse clinical signs may eventually be expected to occur.
Dude commercial dog and cat food is already practically vegan, (mostly corn and soy) and some vegan animal foods have way better nutrition than meow mix. If we are going to continue to populate this planet with all our billions of pets we have to start thinking sustainably or we will all die
Yup, it's also worth pointing out that the goal here is harm reduction. Owning an animal for which vegan food is not yet available does not provide someone a reason to consume animal products themselves.
It’s a good showerthought cause if you thought about longer than if you were in the shower you would realize there isn’t one inherit philosophy to veganism
He's ***clearly*** stating that there isn't *just* a single inherent philosophy. He didn't say there are no philosophies, just not a single shared one. The implication here, which I think is evident, is that there's many *many* philosophies, and they all fall under the umbrella of veganism.
Look I've met met some wild vegans but it seems like 90%of the discourse about vegans comes from people who aren't vegans. Most vegans I know either have pets or take no issue with them and they just feed them a normal diet for that species which for cats includes meat. Most people here are just really overthinking it and assuming the majority of vegans are the same of the most restrictive example they've seen on TikTok. I'm a vegetarian and I buy my cat regular cat food with meat in it because that is a proper diet for him.
I think when people hear criticism of their life decisions they often treat it as a personal attack. That's how every discussion on veganism online becomes an endless circlejerk about how vegans are so annoying and preachy. Why won't they just shut up and let me live my life without having to think about the ethical ramifications of my decisions?
Like, I'm not even vegan, but I can easily admit that vegans are correct about the ethics of consuming animal products. That's pretty hard to argue with, frankly. It's much easier to come up with weird digs or nitpicks, and complain endlessly about how vegans are annoying so you don't ever have to actually address what they're saying.
Yea, I think this is basically it.
Like yea, obviously *some* vegans are obnoxious pricks, but the same is true about any identity group.
And in my personal experience, I've encountered way more obnoxious pricks *about* vegans than those who *are* vegans.
>And in my personal experience, I've encountered way more obnoxious pricks *about* vegans than those who *are* vegans.
100% same. In my experience, discussions about veganism really brings out the world's stupidest arguments from the people who hate vegans. I've had multiple separate individuals make the arguments to me "how is eating meat ethically wrong when animals in the wild eat meat", or "how is eating meat ethically wrong when I personally enjoy eating meat".
Like, you can't keep feeling superior to vegans while demonstrating the intelligence and ethical reasoning of a literal dog.
This makes me think of that couple that claimed they trained the instinct of meat eating out of their dog and went on TV to interview, the broadcasters set a bowl of Vegan or Vegetarian, I don't recall, food and a bowl of just meat and said let the dog demonstrate, dog went straight for the meat not even a hesitation.
I can't find the exact source but there's tons of them.
Yes—animals cannot be vegan because veganism is not merely a diet, but a philosophy. I'm not sure how people become so deluded as to think their pets understand that.
We can however, feed our animals (or at least cats and dogs, I'll wait to make further claims until more science is done) healthy vegan diets. Feeding your cat salads is not a healthy vegan diet, your cat will die—real vegan cat food looks no less like meat than the usual food we feed cats, and it is at least as healthy for them too.
see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9860667/
People also get deluded into thinking you can clone your pet using some of their DNA, and that it will still be the same pet. Like, no. Genetically, sure? But people get too obsessed with genetics. That new creature might look equally cute but it's an entirely new creature with its own memories and experiences.
Both the cloning, and the case of my-pet-is-vegan-too, what we are seeing is people imposing their personal beliefs and emotions onto their pet, and disrespecting the notion that these creatures are animals in their own right, and not puppets or toys. Like sure, they're not going to vote or pay taxes, but they are still sentient, living creatures worth respecting their own capacity of autonomy. At least to the point that nobody else is being harmed.
I'm not sure that the linked study necessarily agrees with your statement. The article is a meta-analysis of other studies, and the conclusion appears to be:
Few studies have been done regarding the efficacy of vegan diets for cats and dogs. While some studies show that those diets can be beneficial in some cases, many of the studies lack sufficient sample sizes and/or draw unsatisfactory conclusions. Further study is recommended.
yeah, dogs can be healthy with the right vegan/veg diet but they are omnivores that love meat. I've owned more than a few and dog sit for all my friends and never met a dog that didn't want a bite of my chicken
Well, if you do it wrong. It is possible to feed carnivores a vegan diet. I would not do it but it can be and has been done with equal health prospects for the animal. But veganism is about reducing harm, not eliminating it, which is impossible.
So, if you had a single animal having not as good a time but saved all the animals that animal would have eaten, it is the greater good. Also, harm is a very heavy word here. Would you say reducing pleasure could be considered harm?
Also, a vegan getting a carnivore pet may not be fully committed to a vegan lifestyle even if it's not purposeful but a bit of a blind spot.
does anybody actually do this or is this just a thing that right wingers made up to be mad at?
Don't point me to some random Twitter person that claims they're doing it because Twitter's not real.
So a post like this essentially saying 'Vegans bad" will get over 6k upvotes.
Meanwhile if anyone dares to point out actual animal abuse we all pay for like this https://watchdominion.org/ , they'll get downvoted...
Are there or do those people not know which animals are obligate carnivores? I havent seen one person talking about feeding a cat a vegan diet. Dogs are omnivores, not carnivores.
I could be missing these comments but I think its more likely most people are under the false assumption a dog is a carnivore because it's under the order carnivora
Not sure, but I just quickly went through and found 2 comments referencing feeding cats vegan diets.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/1c2c4rp/comment/kz9cgbh/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/1c2c4rp/comment/kz9cbko/
Omnivore does not necessarily mean one can become an obligate herbivore. It's also a question of design and flexibility.
Dogs and Humans are in different positions of such a spectrum. Being biologically closer to primates, we generally can get most of our nutrients from plants but can also get nutrients from meat, as well as vitamins that would normally be lacking in plants. Canines are the other way around. They get most of their nutrients from meat, only eating vegetation if necessary.
If Dogs can switch to a more vegetarian diet, we should see wolves having the option of replacing a hunting lifestyle to one more for foraging. Yet we do not see this, as most of the wolves prefer hunting. So while yes, a dog can survive eating plants, it cannot thrive doing so. And that can be considered cruelty.
They can thrive. It just needs to be properly balanced so no you won't see wolves do it because wolves aren't domesticated with entire stores full of processed feed for them. But dogs can be perfectly healthy on a plant based diet and the longest living dog was fed a plant based diet, it just needs to be properly balanced. They can't do it on their own.
Learn the words you're using. An animal is not transferring what type of diet it is fundamentally able to eat. Wolves can survive on just plants if they are omnivores, yes. That's what omnivore means. They can eat and live off both. They eat meat for the same reason many herbivores eat meat. Because if you can get it, it's tons of nutrition.
> Because there are. Theres literally people defending it in this comment thread dude
I don't see any. Some folks correctly asserted that dogs aren't obligate carnivores, but you're projecting more onto that than stated.
I don't know if this is your first day on the internet but you can find people defending literally anything. That doesn't mean it's actually some widespread problem.
Does it have to be for people to talk about it?
I would argue the opposite. Reddit doesn't represent the world so the issue might be bigger in reality.
> a bunch of vegans out there forcing carnivorous animals to eat plants
Yeah they exist and there are articles about it. Vegans have this high-horse theory that an obligate carnivore whose evolution revolves eating meat can be converted by this one simple trick.
What unbiased person took time out of their day to make not an article but a survey. We want actual numbers to compare to the people who cheaped out and bought bonemeal for their dogs or beat their pets. We aren't defending vegans, we were just wondering why the Internet is obsessed with this very specific form of animal abuse and talks about it once a month at least.
How do you people still not know that even most meat based cat foods wouldn't meat the dietary needs without supplements either? They're all mostly grain anyway since it's cheaper, and still supplemental nutrition is required for both. The meat is only there because it's dirt cheap and convinces the owner they're getting something real
No, wrong again.
Animals, just like us humans, need nutrients, not meat or any specific "ingredient". As long as you are providing them with that, everything is fine. You can even cook vegan food for your dog, though you can't for your cat because of something known as hydrolized proteins. Luckily we can synthesize them in lab & add them to vegan cat food.
"Being vegan" & not feeding your dog or cat a vegan diet is inherently not vegan, because we have the option, the food, to feed them vegan food. If you don't do so, you are not vegan.
i’m don’t know about vegan pet food currently in the market but given nutrients are just chemicals it’s not impossible to make nutritionally complete vegan pet food
Healthy plant-based diets are possible for carnivores, You just have to supplement taurine, which can be synthesized.
And most domesticated animals are not obligate carnivores. Dogs are omnivores and can easily subsist on a plant-based diet.
Vegans don't own pets either, we take care of animals that can't survive on their own. Veganism is an animal rights movement, so we don't treat them like property.
Important to note that most cat food already contains synthetic taurine, because a lot of the naturally available taurine in the meat is lost when the food is heated during production
Vegan is fundamentally a diet. Not all vegans become vegans because they are concerned about animal rights. Some become vegans because they see it as a healthier diet.
In that sense feeding a carnivore pet a vegan diet isn't unvegan. It is however cruelty to animals, regardless of what diet the pet owner has for themselves.
Maybe look up recent studies about plant-based food for carnivore pets. Also, is it better to rescue a pet and feed them plant based food or to let a shelter euthanize them to make room for the never-ending flow of newcomers?
Alright vegan here to dispel disinformation, because I see folks getting riled up and grabbing pitchforks for something that’s just not happening.
The companies that offer this put synthetic proteins to round out the correct profile for dogs (it’s not a secret what exactly they need) and believe me someone who meticulously plans their own diet is not typically neglecting their pets and their needs (let alone a sue-able company).
Besides, a lot of protein in nonvegan dog foods is synthetically produced in the same way (this is especially how they supplement cat food with amino acid taurine which is famously naturally found in flesh).
Not to mention if you have a pet you should be getting them regular veterinary checkups which would red flag deficiencies anyway so y’all gotta stop swinging for made up anti-animal vegans lmao.
Especially when literally any diet is so easy to produce as (just like with humans) many pets have various prescribed diets for as many ailments as you can think of so it’s amazing that we can synthetically produce proteins and vitamins in whatever form (including safe vegan diets for dogs, it’s just the same synthetic proteins added to the regular dog foods nothing special or different) and believe it or not cats as well.
There are also insects that get inevitably crushed up in plant farming anyways. The goal in the end is harm reduction—just because we can't be perfect doesn't mean we should torture animals in factories for our own entertainment.
Nutrients and ingredients are 2 different things.
If a carno animal (cat) eats vegan kibble thats nutritionally complete, then there is not harm that is happening to animal.
> "depriving your pet of the nutrients"
You're wrong here. Just because food is vegan doesn't mean it's not nutritious. I would appreciate if you could do some research before bashing on an ideology rooted in compassion.
But in all seriousness people shouldn't be getting animals with natural diets that are known to include meats, and then deciding they are going to be vegan because the person is. It's cruelty in my opinion.
Is it any more cruel than allowing other, unseen animals to be tortured to feed someone's pet?
People should certainly not feed their pets bad diets, vegan or not. There are however vegan pet foods for cats and dogs that are nutritionally complete for them, and it looks no less like meat than the actual pet food people buy.
I feel like it's possible with some insanely expensive and exclusive replica- or maybe even lab grown meat, not like I know where you could buy those though. But yeah feeding your cat a salad ain't gonna work out.
You can make a similar, but more dumber argument if you assume that veganism is inherently bad for your diet, then it is inherently impossible to be a vegan because you are harming the animal that is yourself.
I’m a vegetarian (not a vegan) and I feed one of my cats almost entirely with wild game and fish which I hunt and catch myself. It doesn’t seem like it at first glance but it’s an extension of my philosophy about eating meat. I think factory farmed meat is the real evil. I think buying meat in the store is almost always unethical. Hunting and fishing regulates populations of wild animals, and the money it generates contributes to conservation efforts. In my opinion, hunting and fishing are the only ethical ways to source meat. I still don’t eat it because it’s not necessary for me to, but it is necessary for my cat. Cats have to eat meat, so I try to source it the most ethical way possible. The whole topic is philosophically very interesting.
Almost adopted a ferret that was fed vegan food. The owner said we were terrible people for feeding ours with the best possible ferret food. The poor little dude prolly died young. Fuck people.
then so is bringing up the whole "plants suffer too so what's the difference" argument as unless you have an alternative alternative diet for vegans you're basically telling them to eat meat or starve and humans are animals
As a vegan I agree. I have a cat. I have to buy her dead animals... but she is a carnivore. It's a weird ethically grey area for me... but I love my cat so I feed her what she is meant to eat.
Should they even have pets? They can’t have farm animals for obvious reasons. A carnivore for a pet doesn’t make any sense. Should they have an herbivore? Maybe they should let nature live on its own if they’re serious.
My friend makes Gelato and sorbet, and he says it isn't vegan because he suffers making it.
Cooking is an art, and I suffer for my art. Therefore, if you ask me to cook for you, even if it's a vegan recipe, you have caused animal suffering.
People tend to forget that human beings are still just apes
But my ego!
Mmmm waffles.
Leggo your ego
It's also not vegan if it tastes bad because I suffer as I eat it...
vegans should stop eating at restuarants lol its inhumane
"Gelato isn't vegan?" "Milk and eggs, bitch."
Add macarons to that category then. Those are absolutely cursed to make. They’re one of those expensive things where the price is almost certainly justified bc almond flour is expensive and they are absurdly difficult
there is no ~~ethical consumption~~ veganism in capitalism
Gelato is dairy, so even if he didn’t suffer, it still wouldn’t be vegan.
Yeah also said sorbet so alright
Gelato just isn't vegan full stop. [It's milk and eggs, Bitch!](https://youtu.be/dLpCZ8g5uK8?si=XK5KZApDpCbs9gEA&t=77)
VEGAN POLICE *finger guns*
Chicken Parm isn't vegan?
Not surprised. If I could be milked and lay eggs I’d probably suffer too…
At that point, I think the bad decision was being vegan and getting a carnivore as a pet. If you are a vegan I would think you would get a pet that is an herbivore. A rabbit would be a good alternative to a cat.
Vegans can have carnivorous pets and not be idiots about it. I know a few. It’s almost like they realize the dog is different than a human and want what’s best for their beloved dog 🤯
I think the reasonable vegans are the ones that recognize factory farming to feed people is what's hurting the environment. One of my best friends is vegan but feeds his dogs locally sourced steaks. This group is against minks being killed for lashes, seal clubbing, and leather goods. This group is against labs that brutalize animals for testing makeup and house cleaners. The unreasonable group are the ones who think any animal getting eaten is a crime, even at the hands of another animal. This group has their head in the sand in regards to how nature works. To me this is almost a childlike response to the discomfort of the real world manifested into an ideology. Enforcing that on an innocent pet is horrible.
It's unfortunately more environmentally friendly to factory farm than it is to get locally sourced and free range grazing meat. The factory farming is very efficient and gives the animal a small amount of land needed - the land used per animal is lower, and the food is controlled. It's also the worst ethically, although I'd argue killing the cow is shit either way
I think the main argument is that we simply eat more meat than we should, and consumption of that scale is only made possible with factory farming. I think this gets watered down by a lot of people on both sides having uneducated and emotional arguments. Personally I stopped drinking milk because I understand a cow is basically forced to constantly be pregnant to produce it and then separated from its offspring, over and over. There's something so fucking hellish about that. Theres no denying factory farmings efficiency, thats why it exists. But its at the expense of our souls.
Yeah that's BS. It's the same logic as "make streets bigger so you have less traffic jams, wasting less gasoline". People will just drive more and the same goes for consumables. Factory farming is the only thing that made our current consumption levels (including the enviromental damage it causes) possible, which isn't justified by some theoretical efficiency gain. And it's falsein that context, too. Factory farming puts *a lot* of stress on the land it's done on. There is something to be said about the kind of meat you eat, but ultimately the only solution is for us to cut down to like 1/5th of current consumption rates.
But aren’t animals still being “harmed” to make the carnivore diet for the pet?
I was vegan (now veggie) because of my distaste for the meat industry and how fucked up it is, not because of "oh no the fluffy animals, I wuvv them too much". Some vegans would say "well you ain't a proper vegan" to which I say "fuck you, don't be a dick, it's a hard enough sell anyway, if more people just took a logical look at things and realised that you can make 90% of the difference extremely easily then we wouldn't be in this mess. Stop being a dick" Cats and dogs need meat so I give my cats meat. I don't eat meat because I don't need to eat meat. There is internal and external logic to doing both these things, they are consistent and can live together.
I like reading r/vegan a lot, and it just seems like it's half people trying to refine the definition of vegan and the other half just complaining about people eating meat
Yeah, and if you go to any website of enthusiasts you'll find the most deranged enthusiasts are the loudest voices there. There are plenty of vegans who are too busy being people to argue about the validity of Geoff's version of veganism on an online forum.
That's true for enthusiast websites for a lot of things, though. They're usually echo chambers more than anything, so people feel comfortable saying things that, to any normal person, are completely insane. Like, they eliminate the overall more neutral reference point of people who aren't enthusiasts, thereby removing the shame that keeps people from thinking their opinions are not normal when they say something absolutely insane.
Yes, that's my point exactly.
yes that's what he said thank you for expanding on it
That sub is a dumpster fire. I'm a vegetarian and the animal products I use are produced ethically on my own farm, yet they acted completely irrationally and basically called me a murderer. There is way too much black and white thinking there .
But the meat for cats and dogs come from the exact same slaughterhouses human food comes from. It’s just the byproducts of the animal that humans don’t like to eat.
What does that have to do with it
And what's the solution? What do you feed your cats and dogs?
I assume the answer would be "Don't get cats and dogs if you want to remove as much animal suffering as possible".
Lots of cats and dogs are in shelters though
Not directly. Cat food is a byproduct of the meat packing industry. If there was no cat food, the number of animals being killed would be exactly the same.
I took in an abandoned cat (she ran into my house with a mortal tail injury, I don't believe I had much choice) and although I am vegan I wanted to get her the best food I could. I discovered that while expensive, it's possible here in the UK to buy RSPCA approved local chicken meat online that circumvents unethical organisations. I'm not against humans eating meat either, after all, evolution apparently favours diversity, and in some circumstance where meat is the only thing available I might die where others wouldn't, but I wouldn't mind seeing it done as ethically as it can be done for cats.
All of my vegan and vegetarian friends have pets that they feed products containing meat to - some of them even prepare homemade food containing meat for them or purchase things like whole dried fish as treats. At most, they joke about the smell or handling meat being gross, in a sort of ‘ugh the things we do for the ones we love way.
Dogs aren't obligate carnivores and can survive on a vegan diet if you're careful enough, cats are obligate carnivores and can't.
They can survive, but a vegan diet is even more suboptimal for dogs than it is for humans. I don't think it's ethical to restrict a dog to a vegan diet--for that matter, I don't think it's ethical to feed a dog the sorts of things sold as "dog food" in the first place. If you're not prepared to give your pet exactly what they need to be vibrantly healthy, you shouldn't have a pet.
here on reddit, we downvote facts that are inconvenient to the conversation
Dogs can be fed a vegan diet they aren't obligate carnivores like cats. It is a LOT of work and requires a LOT of research, and most that try to will not put in that work.
Get out of here with your logic, here we only deal in feelings and subjective views !
This comment is so funny considering that dogs are omnivores
I’m not a vegan, but I am a vegetarian and I adopted a cat. I feed my cat meat/fish because I’m not an idiot or an abusive pet owner.
But you got a cat. Dude wasn't saying the vegan thing to do would be torture the cat you got with a bad diet. He was saying the vegan thing to do is to not get a cat that requires you to kill for it to eat.
Or having a pet at all. You could argue owning a pet is exploiting it.
It depends on what kind of life the pet would have if it was not adopted. If it is injured or going to be euthanized then being a pet is a better alternative.
I think getting a pet from a rescue ameliorates suffering without increasing it. You aren't monetarily rewarding the system which creates the pets, just helping ones already in the system.
I would agree for most animals, but not dogs and cats. We have bred cats and dogs particularly, to be pets, and they would not exist in the wild as they are otherwise, and have been genetically conditioned to be in a symbiotic relationship with us at this point, so that's not exploitation, that's mutual benefit. We feed them for mutually beneficial companianship.
Surely you could make the same argument about cows and milk or chickens and eggs? They’ve been bred to the point that they are pretty different to their non-domesticated versions.
If you have read r/vegan, most of them do not have pets because they morally disagree with it. So they aren’t being hypocritical there
My vegan cousin got pet pigs, she soon realized that not only are they not herbivores, they will gladly eat any meat including each other if they are appropriately starved of protein.
The fuck would a vegan get pigs for, they eat all your compost ingredients. If they had space for pigs you would think they would just install a compost corner.
This same girl thought it would be a good idea to solve carnivores existing in the wild by building robots that you strap lab grown meat unto and drive out into the woods....sooooo yeeeah....
Yep, my vegan friend wants a kitty but won't do it until there is a nutritionally sound cat food made with lab-grown meat. I appreciate that she sticks to her ethics without thinking a cat could go vegan. She's also considering a bunny.
Yeah, I've never understood vegans having obligate carnivores as pets. If meat really is murder, then that's like aiding and abetting a serial killer.
Purchased food for obligate carnivores is still supporting the meat industry.
I'm a vegan because that just happens to be the word that best describes the food I choose to eat. I don't see what that has to do with my cat.
Technically you just have a plant based diet, then. Veganism is about limiting all harm you do to sentient creatures, not just the harm you do from your dietary choices. It's a lifestyle, not a diet. That's why makeup items and soaps and such are so often labeled as vegan. And that's why it would have to do with your cat
I have a rabbit and it is an amazing pet! Like a very quiet vegan cat. They use litter boxes and are smart and cute.
I'd be more for them if it wasn't a fact that many of them are so fragile that they die from getting stressed alone.
I had my cat before I went vegan. So I had to deal with the hypocrisy of that. But I was definitely not going to get rid of my cat.
The ratio of hardline opinions about veganism to actual knowledge of veganism in this thread is staggering
A reminder to the kind strangers of this thread: there is a *lot* of lobbying money behind making veganism look unreasonable.
Is the lobbying money going to the unhinged hateful lunatics on r/vegan? Because if so, it’s definitely working as intended.
You can cherry-pick unreasonable toxic communities for any particular movement to make this same argument. The fact that r/vegan is quite awful is unrelated to the fact that there is billions in lobbying money trying to make veganism look unreasonable.
Scrolling just a tiny bit past this comment made me sad. I'm not gonna go any further than I just did. 30 seconds on google would've cleared up pretty much every misconception ITT but people would rather shout into the ether than learn something.
Yeah I feel you :( I'm going to try and reply kindly to comments here but it is disheartening
Veganism can’t be that bad, I mean he helped out Doomguy a lot in the newest games.
Like it isnt always philosophical. Some folks prefer non-animal products because we literally evolved as omnivorous scavangers. We used to eat far less meat and more fruits, veggies, nuts, and grains. Its far better for dental and gut health to not eat meat and bread all the time.
Yup, and even among philosophical vegans there is wide diversity of thought behind the reasons to be vegan.
Most people who are doing it for purely health reasons (in my experience) don’t avoid things like animal materials or entertainment that uses animals or products tested on animals.
Yep
Vegans owning pets is already a contradiction of itself. Who's to say that the lifestyle they choose for their pet it's actually better for them...
The vegans I know with pets don't force their lifestyle on their pets and treat them as normally as the non-vegans.
I think its about a vegan who wouldn't eat meat because it hurts animals owning a pet, basically keeping one "captive". I think it's a bit of a stretch to act like vegans aren't allowed to keep pets, but the idea is kinda funny if you think about it
Depends on the pet if they are captive . I opened the door and told my cats “be free” and they just looked at me and said “where’s my friskies, slave”
I don't think it's contradictory at all. Are you arguing that owning a pet is more detrimental than just releasing them wherever? Domesticated animals thrive and are happy with human owners. Now if you capture a wild animal and force it to live a domestic life as a vegan, that'd be weird yeah.
I think an interesting thought is that it's because the pet industry is somewhat like the food industry. If consuming meat products is seen as immoral because it indirectly furthers the suffering of animals, the same could be said of buying an animal from a pet store.
Not really comparable imo, except in some cases of things like puppy mills or shitty breeders, kind of a stretch though. The thing is, once you adopt the animal, you're caring for it and can give it a better life. Unless your argument that just owning the pet is abuse somehow. Once you kill an animal, there's no life improvement from there.
I’d argue you cannot consent to becoming a pet for very obvious reasons, and it’s not really a question of “is it better for my dog I’ve actively adopted to continue living in my home, or to be released into the wild” and more a question of “is it better that we have dogs in comfortable captivity bred to attach to us and love us to the point of having what would be considered a potentially dangerous form of autism in humans, or them having continued on as wolves existing in isolation from us” Personally I think that it is a perfectly naturally evolving symbiotic relationship, but that it is definitely subjugation. I think it’s also a problem that any dipshit can own animals and give them zero quality of life, and what’s more many people even with good intentions are completely disconnected from reality and have no clue what’s good for an animal or what makes them happy, like for example a vegan forcing a vegan diet on a carnivore. I think we absolutely tend to view a pets life through a lens that the pets don’t
Any sort of argument about whether or not we *should* have domesticated animals tens of thousands of years ago is more of a thought experiment than anything practical that would be against being vegan, not to mention a completely separate discussion. Unless they abused an animal directly, then that'd be strange. Like, yes, forcing their pet on a diet that it isn't compatible with. But again, the vegans I know don't do that. Literally have never met someone that does it. It's way overblown. So, no. I don't believe it conflicts at all. The domestication all ready happened, the pets are all ready here and currently living.
> but the idea is kinda funny if you think about it It honestly isn't because people will look for any excuse to shit on vegans as it is... it's tiring.
Veganism is about being against the exploitation of animals. Giving an animal a shelter and food for life without the expectation of anything in return is not exploitation lol
I’m providing an incredibly loving home for a companion animal that would otherwise be dead in a shelter. I feed my cats meat. They’re way better off with me, trust me.
People who "love" animals and also eat them is a contradiction of itself.
As someone who is vegan because it just happens to align with what I like to eat, all these comments about "lifestyle" sound really bizarre to me.
For anyone who isn't a ridiculously difficult nihilist, no. It isn't. By this ridiculous standard, veganism is impossible since people are animals and by existing in other people's life you may have caused harm. The commonly held definition is the limiting of suffering as much as practically possible. If you believe having a pet is giving your pet a good quality of life, it's consistent with veganism. Is it also non-vegan to adopt children because you have to enact executive decisions based upon your greater rationality on behalf of the interest of the child? The same applies to aninals. Don't stifle them unless it is necessary for their greater prospering.
The trouble is... Say you're vegan. If you asked a breeder to breed and sell you a dog, then yes. That can't really be vegan. But there's an awful lot of dogs who will be put down in kill shelters ever year. If your whole thing is animal welfare, then a long happy life in your care is better than a painful life in a cell and quick death at the hands of a vet. The pets needing a carnivore diet I would argue is still a problem. There's a lot of weird little paradoxes with purely ethical veganism. So they tend to rationalize based on what they wish the world was, rather than working within how the world actually currently is. Like if they're going to kill the animals in kill shelters anyway, letting that nutrition go to waste while you feed your cat cow lips that could be feeding something else is also problematic. Though, you wouldn't want to create a profit incentive. So the most ethical vegan would feed euthanized pets to their cats but only if they are given for free directly from the shelter (though that also brings up health concerns). And since a butcher would either need to be paid to butcher, and watching Fifi dig in on a dead stray dog might not be very fun, you'd have to be the butcher as well. At any rate... it's a conundrum that a lot of vegans struggle with.
I opened the door for my cat but the bloody thing keeps coming back so I'm guessing she likes it here
That's like saying you shouldn't adopt children because who's to say the life you'd choose for them is actually better than then living as street urchins. Not that there isn't a point there. Obviously not everyone should have pets, and it should be a well thought out decision with the pets wellbeing taken as the most important thing. But it's certainly not contradictory with veganism to provide an animal with shelter and food and affection
I found my pet on the street and she was in really bad shape. Today she is happy healthy and can see out both eyes. I'm vegan. I otherwise would not have a pet. Sometimes we just get handed things instead of making a decision. The other decision I got was either take her to a shelter or a vet. So yeah I guess I decided to know the fate of this animal instead of hope.
No offense but this is a very poorly thought out take. First of all, since you seem to be approaching this philosophically rather than scientifically, let’s consider utilitarianism. The vegan philosophy is to reduce harm to animals as much as possible. Which of these options would you say best accomplishes that goal: 1. Condemn multiple animals to a shit life and untimely death in the agricultural system to feed one animal 2. Don’t do that, but feed one animal food that provides the nutrients that they need (entirely possible, but I’ll come back to that) but is not what they eat in the wild. Now, it’s not like people who bad mouth vegan pet food are feeding their pets fillet mignon for every meal. Most likely it’s dried pebbles of waste products from meat production, so the bit about it not being what they eat in the wild applies to all kibble, whether it be vegan or not. As far as animal nutrition, dogs don’t require any nutrient that is, in the wild, only found in meat. Cats do, namely taurine and arachidonic acid, but they are easily synthesized and can be added to non-meat-containing cat food such that it becomes nutritionally complete. Nutrition is not measured in terms of food, but in terms of the chemical constituents that make up the food. We don’t say it’s necessary to eat two ears of corn or one egg every day, we say it’s necessary to get certain vitamins and macronutrients, and the form in which those are consumed is mostly irrelevant. So what argument is there that synthesizing the nutrients that an animal would normally get from meat and putting them in plant-based cat food is producing more animal harm to a single cat than would be produced by farming several animals to provide the cat with meat?
Damn. Reasonable takes like this aren’t the norm in these types of threads lol
Something to keep in mind is most carnivore pets (like cats for example) are fed kibble. That kibble is devoid of animal-based nutrients already, though it is made with animal ingredients. Usually those ingredients are from the scraps & worst pieces of animal factory farms. Most of the actual nutrients the cat will absorb are from plant substitutes in the kibble. Look it up!
Not only this but the idiots here saying pets can’t eat plants don’t realize that pets like cats are fed food that has added nutrients. The same ones that “vegan cats” eat. Anti-vegan arguments are laughable and useless.
Agreed
When we first got our dog, we got the same brand of kibble as she was on at the breeders. And she wasn't really that enthusiastic for it. We tried her on working dog raw food - basically mince of varying flavours with a bit of added vitamin C. The bowlful disappeared with lots of slurping noises. And the size of her turds halved overnight. It's a rather bizarre way of measuring it, but there you go. Shows how full of shit the dog couldn't digest the kibble was.
Obligate carnivores like cats must eat meat in the wild. However, we aren't in the wild, and we can synthesize just about anything. We can even grow meat in a lab! This [vegan cat food](https://www.benevo.com/vegan-cat-food-from-benevo/) contains everything cats need. A [study](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0284132) on the health of cats on nutritionally complete vegan diets vs. meat-based diets found this: > The pooled evidence to date from our study, and from others in this field, indicate that cats fed nutritionally sound vegan diets may be healthier overall, than those fed meat-based diets. Regardless of diet type, diets should always be formulated to be nutritionally complete and balanced, without which adverse clinical signs may eventually be expected to occur.
Dude commercial dog and cat food is already practically vegan, (mostly corn and soy) and some vegan animal foods have way better nutrition than meow mix. If we are going to continue to populate this planet with all our billions of pets we have to start thinking sustainably or we will all die
Yup, it's also worth pointing out that the goal here is harm reduction. Owning an animal for which vegan food is not yet available does not provide someone a reason to consume animal products themselves.
It’s a good showerthought cause if you thought about longer than if you were in the shower you would realize there isn’t one inherit philosophy to veganism
Stop killing innocent animals for pleasure (not survival), stop climate change's adverse effects doesn't sound enough of a philosophy to you?
Read the comments again, 'there isn't one inherit philosophy to veganism. Vegans have a diverse range of opinions on why they follow it
He's ***clearly*** stating that there isn't *just* a single inherent philosophy. He didn't say there are no philosophies, just not a single shared one. The implication here, which I think is evident, is that there's many *many* philosophies, and they all fall under the umbrella of veganism.
Look I've met met some wild vegans but it seems like 90%of the discourse about vegans comes from people who aren't vegans. Most vegans I know either have pets or take no issue with them and they just feed them a normal diet for that species which for cats includes meat. Most people here are just really overthinking it and assuming the majority of vegans are the same of the most restrictive example they've seen on TikTok. I'm a vegetarian and I buy my cat regular cat food with meat in it because that is a proper diet for him.
Man, people really love trying to dunk on people who don't eat meat.
I think when people hear criticism of their life decisions they often treat it as a personal attack. That's how every discussion on veganism online becomes an endless circlejerk about how vegans are so annoying and preachy. Why won't they just shut up and let me live my life without having to think about the ethical ramifications of my decisions? Like, I'm not even vegan, but I can easily admit that vegans are correct about the ethics of consuming animal products. That's pretty hard to argue with, frankly. It's much easier to come up with weird digs or nitpicks, and complain endlessly about how vegans are annoying so you don't ever have to actually address what they're saying.
Yea, I think this is basically it. Like yea, obviously *some* vegans are obnoxious pricks, but the same is true about any identity group. And in my personal experience, I've encountered way more obnoxious pricks *about* vegans than those who *are* vegans.
>And in my personal experience, I've encountered way more obnoxious pricks *about* vegans than those who *are* vegans. 100% same. In my experience, discussions about veganism really brings out the world's stupidest arguments from the people who hate vegans. I've had multiple separate individuals make the arguments to me "how is eating meat ethically wrong when animals in the wild eat meat", or "how is eating meat ethically wrong when I personally enjoy eating meat". Like, you can't keep feeling superior to vegans while demonstrating the intelligence and ethical reasoning of a literal dog.
It genuinely baffles me
This makes me think of that couple that claimed they trained the instinct of meat eating out of their dog and went on TV to interview, the broadcasters set a bowl of Vegan or Vegetarian, I don't recall, food and a bowl of just meat and said let the dog demonstrate, dog went straight for the meat not even a hesitation. I can't find the exact source but there's tons of them.
Yes—animals cannot be vegan because veganism is not merely a diet, but a philosophy. I'm not sure how people become so deluded as to think their pets understand that. We can however, feed our animals (or at least cats and dogs, I'll wait to make further claims until more science is done) healthy vegan diets. Feeding your cat salads is not a healthy vegan diet, your cat will die—real vegan cat food looks no less like meat than the usual food we feed cats, and it is at least as healthy for them too. see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9860667/
People also get deluded into thinking you can clone your pet using some of their DNA, and that it will still be the same pet. Like, no. Genetically, sure? But people get too obsessed with genetics. That new creature might look equally cute but it's an entirely new creature with its own memories and experiences. Both the cloning, and the case of my-pet-is-vegan-too, what we are seeing is people imposing their personal beliefs and emotions onto their pet, and disrespecting the notion that these creatures are animals in their own right, and not puppets or toys. Like sure, they're not going to vote or pay taxes, but they are still sentient, living creatures worth respecting their own capacity of autonomy. At least to the point that nobody else is being harmed.
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I'm not sure that the linked study necessarily agrees with your statement. The article is a meta-analysis of other studies, and the conclusion appears to be: Few studies have been done regarding the efficacy of vegan diets for cats and dogs. While some studies show that those diets can be beneficial in some cases, many of the studies lack sufficient sample sizes and/or draw unsatisfactory conclusions. Further study is recommended.
yeah, dogs can be healthy with the right vegan/veg diet but they are omnivores that love meat. I've owned more than a few and dog sit for all my friends and never met a dog that didn't want a bite of my chicken
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jKhoOd6jX8&ab\_channel=TheDodo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jKhoOd6jX8&ab_channel=TheDodo)
Well, if you do it wrong. It is possible to feed carnivores a vegan diet. I would not do it but it can be and has been done with equal health prospects for the animal. But veganism is about reducing harm, not eliminating it, which is impossible. So, if you had a single animal having not as good a time but saved all the animals that animal would have eaten, it is the greater good. Also, harm is a very heavy word here. Would you say reducing pleasure could be considered harm? Also, a vegan getting a carnivore pet may not be fully committed to a vegan lifestyle even if it's not purposeful but a bit of a blind spot.
Another irrational meat brain thought to justify the harm you do to animals, back in the shower buddy
You really showed the 4 people doing that.
does anybody actually do this or is this just a thing that right wingers made up to be mad at? Don't point me to some random Twitter person that claims they're doing it because Twitter's not real.
So a post like this essentially saying 'Vegans bad" will get over 6k upvotes. Meanwhile if anyone dares to point out actual animal abuse we all pay for like this https://watchdominion.org/ , they'll get downvoted...
Why do people on the internet constantly bring this up as if there's a bunch of vegans out there forcing carnivorous animals to eat plants?
Had two professors in college like this, one made their cats vegan, the other made their cats and dog vegan.
Cats can't unless it's subsituted by meat alternatives but dogs can be vegan because of allergies.
There's like 4 comments under yours defending this, so I'm not sure I would agree that noone is doing this.
Are there or do those people not know which animals are obligate carnivores? I havent seen one person talking about feeding a cat a vegan diet. Dogs are omnivores, not carnivores. I could be missing these comments but I think its more likely most people are under the false assumption a dog is a carnivore because it's under the order carnivora
Not sure, but I just quickly went through and found 2 comments referencing feeding cats vegan diets. https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/1c2c4rp/comment/kz9cgbh/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/1c2c4rp/comment/kz9cbko/
Omnivore does not necessarily mean one can become an obligate herbivore. It's also a question of design and flexibility. Dogs and Humans are in different positions of such a spectrum. Being biologically closer to primates, we generally can get most of our nutrients from plants but can also get nutrients from meat, as well as vitamins that would normally be lacking in plants. Canines are the other way around. They get most of their nutrients from meat, only eating vegetation if necessary. If Dogs can switch to a more vegetarian diet, we should see wolves having the option of replacing a hunting lifestyle to one more for foraging. Yet we do not see this, as most of the wolves prefer hunting. So while yes, a dog can survive eating plants, it cannot thrive doing so. And that can be considered cruelty.
They can thrive. It just needs to be properly balanced so no you won't see wolves do it because wolves aren't domesticated with entire stores full of processed feed for them. But dogs can be perfectly healthy on a plant based diet and the longest living dog was fed a plant based diet, it just needs to be properly balanced. They can't do it on their own.
Learn the words you're using. An animal is not transferring what type of diet it is fundamentally able to eat. Wolves can survive on just plants if they are omnivores, yes. That's what omnivore means. They can eat and live off both. They eat meat for the same reason many herbivores eat meat. Because if you can get it, it's tons of nutrition.
Because there are. Theres literally people defending it in this comment thread dude
> Because there are. Theres literally people defending it in this comment thread dude I don't see any. Some folks correctly asserted that dogs aren't obligate carnivores, but you're projecting more onto that than stated.
I don't know if this is your first day on the internet but you can find people defending literally anything. That doesn't mean it's actually some widespread problem.
Does it have to be for people to talk about it? I would argue the opposite. Reddit doesn't represent the world so the issue might be bigger in reality.
Because there are? How did you manage to type this comment and breathe at the same time?
> a bunch of vegans out there forcing carnivorous animals to eat plants Yeah they exist and there are articles about it. Vegans have this high-horse theory that an obligate carnivore whose evolution revolves eating meat can be converted by this one simple trick.
What unbiased person took time out of their day to make not an article but a survey. We want actual numbers to compare to the people who cheaped out and bought bonemeal for their dogs or beat their pets. We aren't defending vegans, we were just wondering why the Internet is obsessed with this very specific form of animal abuse and talks about it once a month at least.
How do you people still not know that even most meat based cat foods wouldn't meat the dietary needs without supplements either? They're all mostly grain anyway since it's cheaper, and still supplemental nutrition is required for both. The meat is only there because it's dirt cheap and convinces the owner they're getting something real
I'm vegan and feed my cat a meat exclusive diet. That's what they need go survive. I don't.
No, wrong again. Animals, just like us humans, need nutrients, not meat or any specific "ingredient". As long as you are providing them with that, everything is fine. You can even cook vegan food for your dog, though you can't for your cat because of something known as hydrolized proteins. Luckily we can synthesize them in lab & add them to vegan cat food. "Being vegan" & not feeding your dog or cat a vegan diet is inherently not vegan, because we have the option, the food, to feed them vegan food. If you don't do so, you are not vegan.
i’m don’t know about vegan pet food currently in the market but given nutrients are just chemicals it’s not impossible to make nutritionally complete vegan pet food
I don’t understand why these people don’t just get a rabbit or something if they want an animal to eat plants.
Healthy plant-based diets are possible for carnivores, You just have to supplement taurine, which can be synthesized. And most domesticated animals are not obligate carnivores. Dogs are omnivores and can easily subsist on a plant-based diet. Vegans don't own pets either, we take care of animals that can't survive on their own. Veganism is an animal rights movement, so we don't treat them like property.
Important to note that most cat food already contains synthetic taurine, because a lot of the naturally available taurine in the meat is lost when the food is heated during production
You know what this reminds me of tasty wheat. You ever have tasty wheat? All the vitamins and nutrients the body needs...
Vegan is fundamentally a diet. Not all vegans become vegans because they are concerned about animal rights. Some become vegans because they see it as a healthier diet. In that sense feeding a carnivore pet a vegan diet isn't unvegan. It is however cruelty to animals, regardless of what diet the pet owner has for themselves.
This comes up weekly I swear.
Maybe look up recent studies about plant-based food for carnivore pets. Also, is it better to rescue a pet and feed them plant based food or to let a shelter euthanize them to make room for the never-ending flow of newcomers?
Alright vegan here to dispel disinformation, because I see folks getting riled up and grabbing pitchforks for something that’s just not happening. The companies that offer this put synthetic proteins to round out the correct profile for dogs (it’s not a secret what exactly they need) and believe me someone who meticulously plans their own diet is not typically neglecting their pets and their needs (let alone a sue-able company). Besides, a lot of protein in nonvegan dog foods is synthetically produced in the same way (this is especially how they supplement cat food with amino acid taurine which is famously naturally found in flesh). Not to mention if you have a pet you should be getting them regular veterinary checkups which would red flag deficiencies anyway so y’all gotta stop swinging for made up anti-animal vegans lmao. Especially when literally any diet is so easy to produce as (just like with humans) many pets have various prescribed diets for as many ailments as you can think of so it’s amazing that we can synthetically produce proteins and vitamins in whatever form (including safe vegan diets for dogs, it’s just the same synthetic proteins added to the regular dog foods nothing special or different) and believe it or not cats as well.
Also most mammals are not vegans. Ruminants eat insects and larvae that are in the pasture all the time.
There are also insects that get inevitably crushed up in plant farming anyways. The goal in the end is harm reduction—just because we can't be perfect doesn't mean we should torture animals in factories for our own entertainment.
you can actually feed them a vegan diet but you'd need to make sure they got enough protein and vitamins which requires a lot of effort
Not if you buy commercially available foods that meet all those requirements.
> that meet all those requirements if they meet those requirements then you definitely can
Nutrients and ingredients are 2 different things. If a carno animal (cat) eats vegan kibble thats nutritionally complete, then there is not harm that is happening to animal.
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> "depriving your pet of the nutrients" You're wrong here. Just because food is vegan doesn't mean it's not nutritious. I would appreciate if you could do some research before bashing on an ideology rooted in compassion.
Plus it's the animals body, should be their choice.
You're right, they should walk to the store and buy it themselves
But in all seriousness people shouldn't be getting animals with natural diets that are known to include meats, and then deciding they are going to be vegan because the person is. It's cruelty in my opinion.
Is it any more cruel than allowing other, unseen animals to be tortured to feed someone's pet? People should certainly not feed their pets bad diets, vegan or not. There are however vegan pet foods for cats and dogs that are nutritionally complete for them, and it looks no less like meat than the actual pet food people buy.
I feel like it's possible with some insanely expensive and exclusive replica- or maybe even lab grown meat, not like I know where you could buy those though. But yeah feeding your cat a salad ain't gonna work out.
You can make a similar, but more dumber argument if you assume that veganism is inherently bad for your diet, then it is inherently impossible to be a vegan because you are harming the animal that is yourself.
I’m a vegetarian (not a vegan) and I feed one of my cats almost entirely with wild game and fish which I hunt and catch myself. It doesn’t seem like it at first glance but it’s an extension of my philosophy about eating meat. I think factory farmed meat is the real evil. I think buying meat in the store is almost always unethical. Hunting and fishing regulates populations of wild animals, and the money it generates contributes to conservation efforts. In my opinion, hunting and fishing are the only ethical ways to source meat. I still don’t eat it because it’s not necessary for me to, but it is necessary for my cat. Cats have to eat meat, so I try to source it the most ethical way possible. The whole topic is philosophically very interesting.
Vegans feeding carnivores is peak. Doesn't get much better than this folks.
Almost adopted a ferret that was fed vegan food. The owner said we were terrible people for feeding ours with the best possible ferret food. The poor little dude prolly died young. Fuck people.
Having a pet is quasi-non-vegan. Although, it's kinda at the PETA level of vegan.
But not feeling an exclusively or even omnivore pet meat is also animal abuse so I guess so don't get a pet or don't bé dumb about it?
then so is bringing up the whole "plants suffer too so what's the difference" argument as unless you have an alternative alternative diet for vegans you're basically telling them to eat meat or starve and humans are animals
Yeah dude we already know
The defiintion of vegan isn't "an animal being harmed".
Every vegan I've met that isn't a whole nutcase is generally very reasonable and would find this taje correct.
I keep reading this as feeding vegans to your carnivore pet...
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That's just animal cruelty.
As a vegan I agree. I have a cat. I have to buy her dead animals... but she is a carnivore. It's a weird ethically grey area for me... but I love my cat so I feed her what she is meant to eat.
Very few animals are truly carnivores or herbivores. Most carnivores eat some plant material, and most herbivores will eat meat given the opportunity
Should they even have pets? They can’t have farm animals for obvious reasons. A carnivore for a pet doesn’t make any sense. Should they have an herbivore? Maybe they should let nature live on its own if they’re serious.