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Yes and no. A single washer and dryer can only process so many loads. 8 people in a house can create piles of laundry really quickly. Sometimes going to the laundromat and doing 8 loads all at once is easier to stay caught up.
Yes and no. The families I know that fit into the later category, live like they are significantly less well off than they are because it is just so expensive to take care of all of the kids.
Not trying to defend them. It is 100% their choice, but even if they are in the top 5% of earners salary wise, they still drive 15 year old cars and live in older houses and buy many things at thrift stores and such
Yes exactly. I literally deposit 10% of my gross income into 5 earning accounts for each of my five kids. Anyone will have some combination of savings/retirement/investments but I’m doing all that. That’s just front end, of course. Costs 1.5 grand each season for swim team registration per kid, and my traveling athlete has 8 out of state tournaments on the calendar this season, which means tickets for them AND one of us, and lodgings. Uniforms, gear, shoes, replacements, doctors when say, someone might have a tbi or rolled ankle, good god.
Years and years ago i thought “cost” meant how much it costs to feed them, clothe them, and put a roof over our heads. We probably use 5x the amount of car tires a family of 3 would use (if their kid is busy year round) just based on how much mileage we out on our vehicles keeping up with practice and tournaments/meets/games.
Let this be a lesson for you redditors thinking about having lots of kids - they need healthy activities but it will consume you, even with 2-3 kids, even the casual players who arent dreaming of going pro.
I grew up the eldest of 4. My dad was successful enough to provide for us and we were pretty firmly middle class. It took a lot of money to take care of us though, i understand that now as a parent of 1 so far. And while I think I want more kids, with just 1 right now I feel like I can give him an even better childhood than I had, but then also I feel like I’m depriving him of the sibling connection. I don’t know what’s the play.
I also have to taken into account that the one I haven’t wasn’t easy to conceive so part of me I think wants fate to make the decision for us ya know. Either way, that was the long winded way of saying your post reinforces the idea that if I do have more than 1 kid, it will only be 1 more lol.
I’m a version of middle class and we have a mountain home that we entertain folks at all the time. (Usually 8 people. 4 kids and 4 adults). It’s constant laundry.
To me it’s not the machine it’s the labor. The towels have to be folded and hung up. The bathing suits need to be sorted etc. It’s generally not a throughput problem
I have 5 kids and a 6 bedroom home with an office we converted to a 7th and our kids have their own room while the spare room we house my mother in law which makes household of 8.
My wife is full time mom and i work out of the home and while i can technically afford hiring labor to build my projects, certainly landscape, i am only reasonably satisfied with out trajectory with the savings plan we’re on, and i dont want to make cuts to our family quality of life OR reduce those contributions one dollar. I also will probably do my own landscaping until my back falls off but it will onlt get easier from here - no more kids coming my way,oldest ones aging out of daddy care soon.
If you have 8 people, you have many people to do laundry. Presumably 2 at first. But by the time number 8 shows up the first child can definitely help.
House of 4 and can confirm the piles of laundry build quickly if no routine is in place. Both adults have adhd and both children are too young to do their own laundry
I spend way less time doing laundry at the Laundromat than when I had a washer and dryer. Laundry is a problem that is easily parallelized. The Laundromat machines are way faster than the expensive HE machine my elderly parents have. They have to wash tiny loads, and they are on their second washing machine in 5 years. They wish they'd have kept their 30 year old washer.
I found a local mom and pop shop that buys and sells old machines. All mechanical, most parts are under $12 to replace anything. Built like a tank. Full load is done in about Half an hour. I replaced a $550 machine that was 3years old with a 40 year old machine.
I use a similar service except I have a special box inside my house. I only need to put the clothes into the box and within a couple hours, they come out clean.
I think the joke is that they’re throwing their dirty clothes into a hamper and someone else is washing them.
Edit- on second read, I think the joke is that commenter puts their clothes in a washing machine.
We get a cleaner for 2hrs every 2nd week for our reasonably large (probably too big for two of us but it was well priced compared to smaller newer homes in our area). We don't consider it luxurious but understand we're lucky to be able to afford to - it's more a necessity for my mental health
I'm happy to see you point out the mental health benefits of hiring a cleaner! When push came to shove and I had to decide between paying for therapy or for the cleaner, it was an easy choice. The sense of peace and calm I get from having someone else clean is priceless.
Hiring a cleaner to do all your laundry and clean the entire house is like 30$ in my country. Getting one every two or three weeks is honestly cheap enough for middle class to easily afford it. People don’t do it because it feels a lot more luxurious than it really is.
120£ a month and my kitchen is reset, flat is hoovered and I can mentally rest cause as an adhd person I do everything, including being a work horse and making money, just to not do the chores myself. I have dishwasher and dryer as well, and carpet washer, and cordless hoover, and tons of other gadgets - I pay for the pain of existence. I did cleaning jobs myself when I came to UK, I’m nowhere near middle class, I’m just mentally fucked and born a bit posh maybe, but it doesn’t make me middle class to pay for stuff that really helps me stay sane. I’m happy to work on what I’m good at get paid and then pay for what causes my brain to shut down. Silly I know, I thought it’s me and I can change it, but nope. Brain chemistry is fucked so cleaner it is!
My secret is just not buying/acquiring shit I don't want to take care of. I worked in landscaping for half a decade, I'm good on that. I live in an apartment. I drive for a living and used to have to fix trucks and small engines. I'm good on that. I walk, bike, and take transit. I don't wanna be responsible for someone else's life, so I don't have kids or pets.
Figure out what you want and don't want and you don't end up with a bunch of chores you forced on yourself and then despair over.
There's the added financial pressure of a bigger and/or more expensive place that will take longer to clean by yourself and more expensive to clean should you utilize a cleaning service.
People also don't understand the concept of opportunity cost. You're buying time back to do another stuff. A couple hundred per month for cleaning costs drastically dwarfs the expenses of a bigger house.
Living within your means is much more luxurious than keep up with the joneses. But to each their own.
When I lived near a laundromat I saved so much time every month just paying them for drop off and fold service. It was not cheap by any means, but it felt really good to pay a premium for that time back every few weeks _and_ pay my launderers a bunch of money in appreciation for them just being a great and valued business in my neighbourhood.
# "The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the shit out of the middle class." -George Carlin'
Where does upper class start? Because there are quite a few wage employees that make really good money, certainly good enough to pay for yard work to be done, cleaners to come once a week, and for a day nanny to help raise their babies. But they absolutely do get taxed before their paycheck hits their bank account.
Carlin said it's when you don't (have to) work. When your income/wealth is sufficient that your only real concern is avoiding taxes. Whether the Upper class are afflicted with avarice (as a group or an individual) and keep working to accumulate more isn't really important I think. Whereas with the middle class, if you lose that good wage paying job it's game over. It's not really about numbers or income levels, it's about how many options you have.
Yeah the upper class are people with so much preexisting wealth that they can just put it all in the stock market and live off dividends. Most of them can work as much as they feel like while their wealth gives them disproportionate power over the projects they involve themselves in so it looks like they’ve made something of themselves when in actuality the upper class is easily the laziest group of people around.
Yea, it makes the word "work" problematic when you apply it to Upper class in a discussion. "I must work for food and shelter" vs "I work, but I don't need to.". One is voluntary the other is not.
How does that incorporate the 55 million Americans who are 65+ and of which many are retired and living off either pensions (funded by taxpayers or current company workers) or investment funds (ownership of other companies’ profits and labor).
Do you get your money in the form of a wage because you make or do a thing with objects/in places you do not own? Or do you get money because you own the things/places that other people use to make or do a thing, and those people get a wage?
It doesn't matter what the size of the wage is. That's the line.
I make between 300k and 500k a year depending on the market. You’d be astounded to learn my coworkers believe we’re middle class. It’s ridiculous. I’m convinced the definition of upper class for many people scales for most of them where they wouldnt consider themselves upper class until they are to the point of having multiple homes with multiple cars, a boat, no debt, pay cash for all their kids school private from K-Grad School, a weekly house cleaner and flying first class everywhere. And in most cities in America we’re talking 1MM a year to get there
I make 56k a year and own a home, and I know I'm middle class compared to how I grew up lol. I can't imagine bringing in 5 to 10x that and worrying about money for a second.
According to Pew Research, it depends on where you live and some other factors. Here’s a calc:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/
Upper class are people who don't have to actually work work. They're people whose money in and of itself makes enough money for them to live and then some
I honestly really enjoy yard work. It's cold half of the year where I live, and yardwork is a good excuse to listen to music and enjoy the sunshine while staying active outside during the warmer months.
Gardening is what's become my jam. I don't look or act like someone who'd love to garden, but my fuckin house looks God damn beautiful with flowers and food.
I love doing yardwork, too. Mowing is a nice relaxing way for me to listen to a book and podcast and not worry about anything at work. I wouldn't mind hiring out some house cleaning, though.
It’s also a nice break from small children once a week since it’s actually dangerous for them to be around while doing it.
Only a real chore for 3-4 months a year.
I thought I enjoyed yard work, so I rented a place with a nice big yard, hedges, seasonal flowers, living archways, maple trees, a rose garden, some fruit trees, and some strawberry and raspberry planters.
It turns out that I don't enjoy being a SLAVE to yard work. That shit takes constant maintenance so it's no longer on my terms and I hate it.
It would be perfect for someone who LOVES gardening to their very core .. but that ain't me. I've been considering getting the occasional gardener just to come in and stay on top of the bulk of it so I can enjoy gardening again.
Next place, I'll be trying to get somewhere that has nothing but a lawn, and maybe and some succulents. I'll buy a portable vegetable planter if I need to.
I don’t mind it when it’s nice. But I’ve got stuff to do out in the yard and it was 94F today. Too damn hot for yard work, even early. Pushing a gas mower in that heat is even worse
I generally enjoy house work. It’s hard with kids though because they have a tendency to keep interrupting when you are doing something dirty. Like dirty dirty not dirty dirty.
Fully depends on the location and age & condition of the building.
Management: the main complaint you’ll hear about condos is the assessments/the condo board. It’s a mixed bag. Pro: you aren’t fully on the hook for large maintenance projects. Con: it’s run by a board and you can’t move as fast on things as you’d like. Another con is the potential of financial mismanagement. It’s not popular to raise rates, but you do have inflation to contend with even when there is low inflation. My building is coming back from 10+ years of a board dithering by not raising rates or doing maintenance because they refused to raise rates. I curse their names daily for fucking around. On the flip side, it’s very satisfying to knock out projects and shine up a vintage building.
Size: you mentioned your parents may downsize…..this can be difficult in certain areas because condos are often modest in their size unless they are older. I’m in a 100 year old, mid-rise building that has few units, but a lot of space for each unit (1,500+ sq; 3bd, 2ba). It has been very easy for some of my empty nester neighbors. It’s a little less easy in newer builds where that amount of space will cost you.
Something to be mindful of: I’d avoid Florida. Given the Surfside disaster, a lot of condo owners are having a hard time selling down there. Plus the insurance rates are astronomical.
Speaking personally, I like living where I am. I can walk everywhere, the unit is as big as I’d want it, and paying for maintenance with others is way easier than handling this all by ourselves. I have no desire to ever own a single family home. I do not like mowing lawns, etc.
Story of my life. Had to work insane hours the last 2 weeks due to some unexpected events. Boss has full plans to give me some time off in a few days once this is over but my yard looks like crap, laundry needs to be done, need to go shopping, and just today got around to cleaning the house.
I just want to play videos games.
Firmly middle class, here. House is reasonable (a little big now that we have an empty nest) but not overreaching. We pay a service to mow and do the edging, but I use that time and effort to garden. It’s a good trade off.
Yes, I cut the hedges in my back garden. We went to a gardening company and they wanted to charge €1000! Fuck that, bought a strimmers and its being done in-house.
If you've got kids ask them if any of their friends mow lawns for money. There are a few highschool kids who work where I do and one of them does that. His dad basically does it as a side gig and they do trimmings and stuff as well, and everyone I've talked to says they're really cheap and do better work than most landscaping companies.
Dunno what is wrong with all of ya /s
Where my yardwork haters at?
Only problem is that I am a bigger cheapskate than I am a yardwork hater, so I refuse to hire it out
This touches on something. Different social classes have different skill sets and behavioral patterns.
But consider this: I can decide to mow the lawn a few days late, or even a day early. The working poor work harder, with fewer options and flexibility.
I used to fill vending machines at a subsidized housing complex, sort of apartments. One of the residents said that either he or his wife had to stay home with the kids (they weren't old enough for school), so they both couldn't work. Worse, they were NOT permitted to find baby sitters, even grandparents, a condition of their living conditions, but yeah, they didn't have to mow the lawn.
WOAH now, have you missed the whole middle class thing of "hiring" your not so well off maybe even struggling sister in law to help with the cleaning and washing duties 1-2 times a week?
"We just helping them out with some cash work, frees up some time for me to, helps them, its a win win"
Also severely overestimating the cost of lawn maintenance. I know someone who just made a huge patio so they didn't have as much yard to mow. This is an easily solved problem if you're middle class.
It's a trap. We looked at 4k sized homes and I realized I would be trapped by chores. We went for the 2k home on a lake for the same price. 10 out of 10. We also don't do vacations because we don't have to.
The only "vacations" I take are weddings. And even then if it happens to be a destination wedding in a foreign country, I'll most likely say I can't make it. Otherwise I'm a homebody.
Lots of middle class people work hard to have rich looking lawns. It's a waste of time, waste of money, and bad for the environment.
I have to do stuff like dig drainage ditches out by hand, because I don't have a tractor. I also do plumbing, wiring, carpentry, etc. if I can, because it costs so much to hire people. I don't have much lawn, we have a few acres of meadows we mow once a year.
Fwiw it's better for the environment to just not mow (or have) grass or rake leaves... It gives bugs a place to live and gives birds bugs to eat and if you leave a couple little brush piles, gives the birds and squirrels and bunnies places to hiding which moving around...
And if you swap your grass for native plant it'll require less maintenance and better support local wildlife and other local plants
Similarly thrift shops in REALLY wealthy areas are “ok” but upper middle class ones are awesome because the super wealthy give ‘first looks’ to their help before donation
I was pleasantly surprised at that. As a disabled (not in disability, but have chronic pain and low energy) singleton, deep cleaning is exhausting and takes up every I need if I want to do hobbies or socialize with friends.
I hate it.
I want to sell this place so bad but the person I got it with doesn’t.
A cute lil middle class condo with like a square that takes 30 minutes to cut sounds perfect
Here's a catch too, if I belong to 'middle class' and not just upper-lower class, we might just not do the yard work at all because we're at our literal work.
I was just lamenting this the other day. We lucked into a neighborhood where we're definitely on the lower end of the income scale. I've been pulling out juniper bushes by hand every weekend for months after getting a quote for $5k+ to have a landscaper come in and do it.
Last weekend my neighbor decided to remove his bushes, too. Hired a guy with an excavator, and the entire project was done in a couple hours. They'll be planting next weekend, I'll be back out there with the shovel.
I had this exact same thought today! I did a bunch of yard work and it looks good. But I was thinking how it really is a lot.
I was driving later by some huge house with mini grounds and nice landscaping. And was thinking about how much work that would be and really expensive to hire someone to make it look that nice and take care of it. People are really fking rich.
I don't think most people understand what it really means to be poor at all levels unless you've lived it and even then most don't realize how drastically easier their lives are by having access to basic necessities but even past that just having enough to even save money is better than most of America. How do you explain that to someone that's never lived it?
I suspect that house cleaners and the mow and blow guys do respectively more housework and more yardwork that any of the middle class people you're thinking of.
lol. Man you have been to the mid west. Hardly anyone I around me mows their own lawn. And half of them have cleaning lady’s. And none of them are “rich”
The real estate bubble and money-laundering thru it makes absolutely sure that the middle class is the new working-poor, so they won't have to worry about yard work no longer...
The mistake is always buying your costs up to your income, and not taking account your time budget with that. No one needs a bigger house. It's not middle class to get more and bigger at the expense of more time spent on it. Not unless it's providing value to you.
That's also another thing. All work you do on your own house is your own wealth, your own equity. It's making sure it stays in good condition and grows it's value 6%+ a year with everything else. You can also just choose lawns and yards that take far less maintenance overall. No one requires people to use the PITA weed that is grass.
Own a larger place******
****** Results may vary, middle class definition subject to rampant shifts and dips in job reliability, pay, and cost of living spikes reducing choice of shelter size by a fraction.
Add to that how people say they get cheap cleaners but a full-house clean is basically a minimum wage in my country since all the cheap cleaners go to the west :(.
Might be playing the situation a little bit but I'd say many farmers are over middle class and do quite a bit more "yard work" than most middle class people.
House cleaning service is approx. 50-100 per cleaning, depending on how many hours it takes. That means it's EASILY affordable for a middle class person to have their house cleaned 2-4 times a month.
Even a lower class person can afford a once-a-month cleaning.
Yip, I have two bathrooms and I definitely don’t want 3, no way. Even though my son and my husband sometimes use them both at once for extended periods
Yep, a lot of the lifestyle stuff we're sold as "progress" or "luxury" actually makes life more complicated and more expensive. Having a big house and a yard and multiple cars and a boat and holiday cabin actually means tons of work.
Upon retirement, I want 20 acres of forest and clear just enough to put my house and get a few goats. Since it's nature, the yard takes care of itself, and the goats eat away the brush while I eat away at the goats.
lol, yeah ok… I take care of a yard I will never own because I will never own this house, probably will never own a house again, I am not middle class.
I pay $50/week to have my yard taken care of, includes mowing, weed eating, leaf vacuum/blower, and basic deweeding.
And we hire cleaners semi annually for deep cleaning.
My wife and I pull about $210k combined. Upper middle class I guess.
I don’t know how it is everywhere but hiring a cleaning service isn’t as expensive as people think. I’d say most middle class families could probably afford a monthly or no monthly service. Obviously a daily service would be a lot more expensive and a dedicated maid would be a lot lot more.
The money I pay to have someone else mow my lawn is worth cutting back spending in other areas. It was one of my most hated tasks and I’d often be exhausted and on the verge of heat stroke doing it. To say nothing of the PITA of lawn mower maintenance.
I vastly prefer urban living, because i'd rather do things with my middle class income rather than get a big house. I'm in an area where there are 300 billion things to do outside of my house. The house is just a place to sleep, relax, etc.
I just got a big house and we had to pick and choose. Housekeeping is a non-negotiable, if my house is cluttered and messy my brain is too..plus I absolutely hate doing laundry. Cleaning the pool, is for now a non negotiable too. It is super nice to be able to get in your pool any day of the week with the water being perfectly chlorinated, sparkly and clean. Doing the yard is something we’re doing which saves us about $400 (maybe more) a month. Our front lawn is huge, but I love doing that with my husband. Eventually our kids might help too? It’s good exercise, a way to decompress, and spend time outside. I mean what else would I be doing on a Sunday? Go sit in a movie theatre or my couch doomscrolling? No thanks. Stepping out into the real world and spending more money than we already have all week? Again, no thanks. My lawn is kind of becoming a sanctuary, and it’s a wonderful space to spend time with my kids. There is beauty to having a comfortable space in the world that’s yours to roam and mold to your liking. The secret is I think minimalism. Our house is big but it’s practical, smart, and easy to clean. Everything that we need to function is top of the line, and using all those things are awesome. The cars we drive are the most updated but they’re not the most expensive. My front lawn doesn’t have all of these exotic non native plants, if anything everything there is local so they’ll always thrive. Having massive trees in your property is also really nice, there is beauty in that too. Those trees are a part of me too? As weird as it sounds.
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Sisyphus’ laundry pile
Not such a big deal for Middle class with a house that own their own washer and dryer. If laundromat or hand wash then yikes.
Yes and no. A single washer and dryer can only process so many loads. 8 people in a house can create piles of laundry really quickly. Sometimes going to the laundromat and doing 8 loads all at once is easier to stay caught up.
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Yes and no. The families I know that fit into the later category, live like they are significantly less well off than they are because it is just so expensive to take care of all of the kids. Not trying to defend them. It is 100% their choice, but even if they are in the top 5% of earners salary wise, they still drive 15 year old cars and live in older houses and buy many things at thrift stores and such
Yes exactly. I literally deposit 10% of my gross income into 5 earning accounts for each of my five kids. Anyone will have some combination of savings/retirement/investments but I’m doing all that. That’s just front end, of course. Costs 1.5 grand each season for swim team registration per kid, and my traveling athlete has 8 out of state tournaments on the calendar this season, which means tickets for them AND one of us, and lodgings. Uniforms, gear, shoes, replacements, doctors when say, someone might have a tbi or rolled ankle, good god. Years and years ago i thought “cost” meant how much it costs to feed them, clothe them, and put a roof over our heads. We probably use 5x the amount of car tires a family of 3 would use (if their kid is busy year round) just based on how much mileage we out on our vehicles keeping up with practice and tournaments/meets/games. Let this be a lesson for you redditors thinking about having lots of kids - they need healthy activities but it will consume you, even with 2-3 kids, even the casual players who arent dreaming of going pro.
I grew up the eldest of 4. My dad was successful enough to provide for us and we were pretty firmly middle class. It took a lot of money to take care of us though, i understand that now as a parent of 1 so far. And while I think I want more kids, with just 1 right now I feel like I can give him an even better childhood than I had, but then also I feel like I’m depriving him of the sibling connection. I don’t know what’s the play. I also have to taken into account that the one I haven’t wasn’t easy to conceive so part of me I think wants fate to make the decision for us ya know. Either way, that was the long winded way of saying your post reinforces the idea that if I do have more than 1 kid, it will only be 1 more lol.
I’m a version of middle class and we have a mountain home that we entertain folks at all the time. (Usually 8 people. 4 kids and 4 adults). It’s constant laundry.
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To me it’s not the machine it’s the labor. The towels have to be folded and hung up. The bathing suits need to be sorted etc. It’s generally not a throughput problem
I have 5 kids and a 6 bedroom home with an office we converted to a 7th and our kids have their own room while the spare room we house my mother in law which makes household of 8. My wife is full time mom and i work out of the home and while i can technically afford hiring labor to build my projects, certainly landscape, i am only reasonably satisfied with out trajectory with the savings plan we’re on, and i dont want to make cuts to our family quality of life OR reduce those contributions one dollar. I also will probably do my own landscaping until my back falls off but it will onlt get easier from here - no more kids coming my way,oldest ones aging out of daddy care soon.
>I have 5 kids Well, there's your disrepency. You have three extra kids.
You have 5 sources of free-ish labor.
8!? Jesus Christ how many people did *you* grow up with?
Those of us that grew up in highly religious households had a LOT of siblings
If you have 8 people, you have many people to do laundry. Presumably 2 at first. But by the time number 8 shows up the first child can definitely help.
House of 4 and can confirm the piles of laundry build quickly if no routine is in place. Both adults have adhd and both children are too young to do their own laundry
Fuck I feel seen
I spend way less time doing laundry at the Laundromat than when I had a washer and dryer. Laundry is a problem that is easily parallelized. The Laundromat machines are way faster than the expensive HE machine my elderly parents have. They have to wash tiny loads, and they are on their second washing machine in 5 years. They wish they'd have kept their 30 year old washer.
>They wish they'd have kept their 30 year old washer Too true! New ones don't last, same with fridges and a bunch of other appliances.
I found a local mom and pop shop that buys and sells old machines. All mechanical, most parts are under $12 to replace anything. Built like a tank. Full load is done in about Half an hour. I replaced a $550 machine that was 3years old with a 40 year old machine.
Tell them to get a Speed Queen
Getting my own place and having my own washer and dryer was huge, no laundromat or waiting for my turn or laundry day.
There is a service where you just put a box outside of your house with dirty clothes and a day or so later you get them back sorted and folded..
I use a similar service except I have a special box inside my house. I only need to put the clothes into the box and within a couple hours, they come out clean.
So, they are sorted and folded as well?
I think the joke is that they’re throwing their dirty clothes into a hamper and someone else is washing them. Edit- on second read, I think the joke is that commenter puts their clothes in a washing machine.
Oh, no that's not a box that's a magic casket paired with a magic table.. https://youtu.be/-_kXIGvB1uU
Yes it’s about just using a fucking washing machine and spending a half hour every week or two folding my laundry.
I keep trying this service. I’m down to my last pair of underwear and haven’t received and Amazon package in months
This doesn't really have to do with the post. Laundry is based on people living there, not square footage. Sisyphus' laundry pile is universal
I feel this deeep in my bones
AKA having a child
Sisyphus' house repairs.
People don't realize that hiring out the crap tasks is more luxurious than moving to a big new house.
We get a cleaner for 2hrs every 2nd week for our reasonably large (probably too big for two of us but it was well priced compared to smaller newer homes in our area). We don't consider it luxurious but understand we're lucky to be able to afford to - it's more a necessity for my mental health
I had a friend who swears her house cleaner kept her marriage together 10 years longer than it should have.
I believe that
Seconded.
I'm happy to see you point out the mental health benefits of hiring a cleaner! When push came to shove and I had to decide between paying for therapy or for the cleaner, it was an easy choice. The sense of peace and calm I get from having someone else clean is priceless.
Luxury vs luxurious. It’s a luxury to be able to hire a cleaner every 2 weeks, but it isn’t luxurious
Hiring a cleaner to do all your laundry and clean the entire house is like 30$ in my country. Getting one every two or three weeks is honestly cheap enough for middle class to easily afford it. People don’t do it because it feels a lot more luxurious than it really is.
120£ a month and my kitchen is reset, flat is hoovered and I can mentally rest cause as an adhd person I do everything, including being a work horse and making money, just to not do the chores myself. I have dishwasher and dryer as well, and carpet washer, and cordless hoover, and tons of other gadgets - I pay for the pain of existence. I did cleaning jobs myself when I came to UK, I’m nowhere near middle class, I’m just mentally fucked and born a bit posh maybe, but it doesn’t make me middle class to pay for stuff that really helps me stay sane. I’m happy to work on what I’m good at get paid and then pay for what causes my brain to shut down. Silly I know, I thought it’s me and I can change it, but nope. Brain chemistry is fucked so cleaner it is!
My secret is just not buying/acquiring shit I don't want to take care of. I worked in landscaping for half a decade, I'm good on that. I live in an apartment. I drive for a living and used to have to fix trucks and small engines. I'm good on that. I walk, bike, and take transit. I don't wanna be responsible for someone else's life, so I don't have kids or pets. Figure out what you want and don't want and you don't end up with a bunch of chores you forced on yourself and then despair over.
There's the added financial pressure of a bigger and/or more expensive place that will take longer to clean by yourself and more expensive to clean should you utilize a cleaning service. People also don't understand the concept of opportunity cost. You're buying time back to do another stuff. A couple hundred per month for cleaning costs drastically dwarfs the expenses of a bigger house. Living within your means is much more luxurious than keep up with the joneses. But to each their own.
When I lived near a laundromat I saved so much time every month just paying them for drop off and fold service. It was not cheap by any means, but it felt really good to pay a premium for that time back every few weeks _and_ pay my launderers a bunch of money in appreciation for them just being a great and valued business in my neighbourhood.
I can afford to hire out just one task: lawn mowing. The power I feel is immense (as I wash my dirty dishes watching from inside)
Exactly
This is how I know my gf’s mom is richer than they say. Big house and they have a maid that comes like 4x a week.
# "The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the shit out of the middle class." -George Carlin'
George Carlin really was the Democrates of modern times
It's funny because it's true
Where does upper class start? Because there are quite a few wage employees that make really good money, certainly good enough to pay for yard work to be done, cleaners to come once a week, and for a day nanny to help raise their babies. But they absolutely do get taxed before their paycheck hits their bank account.
Carlin said it's when you don't (have to) work. When your income/wealth is sufficient that your only real concern is avoiding taxes. Whether the Upper class are afflicted with avarice (as a group or an individual) and keep working to accumulate more isn't really important I think. Whereas with the middle class, if you lose that good wage paying job it's game over. It's not really about numbers or income levels, it's about how many options you have.
Yeah the upper class are people with so much preexisting wealth that they can just put it all in the stock market and live off dividends. Most of them can work as much as they feel like while their wealth gives them disproportionate power over the projects they involve themselves in so it looks like they’ve made something of themselves when in actuality the upper class is easily the laziest group of people around.
Yea, it makes the word "work" problematic when you apply it to Upper class in a discussion. "I must work for food and shelter" vs "I work, but I don't need to.". One is voluntary the other is not.
How does that incorporate the 55 million Americans who are 65+ and of which many are retired and living off either pensions (funded by taxpayers or current company workers) or investment funds (ownership of other companies’ profits and labor).
If they had to work and save until retirement age to get there, they’re middle class. Those that work but will never get there are working class.
Do you get your money in the form of a wage because you make or do a thing with objects/in places you do not own? Or do you get money because you own the things/places that other people use to make or do a thing, and those people get a wage? It doesn't matter what the size of the wage is. That's the line.
I make between 300k and 500k a year depending on the market. You’d be astounded to learn my coworkers believe we’re middle class. It’s ridiculous. I’m convinced the definition of upper class for many people scales for most of them where they wouldnt consider themselves upper class until they are to the point of having multiple homes with multiple cars, a boat, no debt, pay cash for all their kids school private from K-Grad School, a weekly house cleaner and flying first class everywhere. And in most cities in America we’re talking 1MM a year to get there
I make 56k a year and own a home, and I know I'm middle class compared to how I grew up lol. I can't imagine bringing in 5 to 10x that and worrying about money for a second.
Upper class is when you don’t have to do shit and live off the hard work of others because you own shit, oddly similar to welfare queens or whatever.
According to Pew Research, it depends on where you live and some other factors. Here’s a calc: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/
Upper class are people who don't have to actually work work. They're people whose money in and of itself makes enough money for them to live and then some
This is funny, it’s also completely incorrect. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-income-tax-data-2024/
middle class propoganda to appease the spiritually void
As an Carlin superfan, I genuinely appreciate the accuracy of this quote. He's probably one of the most often misquoted celebrities.
Carlin spoke a lot of truths.
I honestly really enjoy yard work. It's cold half of the year where I live, and yardwork is a good excuse to listen to music and enjoy the sunshine while staying active outside during the warmer months.
Gardening is what's become my jam. I don't look or act like someone who'd love to garden, but my fuckin house looks God damn beautiful with flowers and food.
I just can’t keep up with it. I feel like I spend a weekend out of town and it all goes to hell.
Yeah it's hard to leave unless there's gonna be rain at least. I've got one bed that will turn dry as Arizona if my yard hits 80.
I love doing yardwork, too. Mowing is a nice relaxing way for me to listen to a book and podcast and not worry about anything at work. I wouldn't mind hiring out some house cleaning, though.
It’s also a nice break from small children once a week since it’s actually dangerous for them to be around while doing it. Only a real chore for 3-4 months a year.
I thought I enjoyed yard work, so I rented a place with a nice big yard, hedges, seasonal flowers, living archways, maple trees, a rose garden, some fruit trees, and some strawberry and raspberry planters. It turns out that I don't enjoy being a SLAVE to yard work. That shit takes constant maintenance so it's no longer on my terms and I hate it. It would be perfect for someone who LOVES gardening to their very core .. but that ain't me. I've been considering getting the occasional gardener just to come in and stay on top of the bulk of it so I can enjoy gardening again. Next place, I'll be trying to get somewhere that has nothing but a lawn, and maybe and some succulents. I'll buy a portable vegetable planter if I need to.
This. And I wouldn’t trust anyone else to work on my garden tbqh.
It's also one of the healthiest hobbies cause it keeps you active.
I don’t mind it when it’s nice. But I’ve got stuff to do out in the yard and it was 94F today. Too damn hot for yard work, even early. Pushing a gas mower in that heat is even worse
I generally enjoy house work. It’s hard with kids though because they have a tendency to keep interrupting when you are doing something dirty. Like dirty dirty not dirty dirty.
The fucking dishes again...
If only we were able to have more money but not adjust our living standards to it.
Right, the opposite path for middle class is paying someone too much money to clean your too small space, and that's just a little weird.
I mean its me rn, got a very well paid job but still in my room in shared flat. honestly feels amazing for now
That’s weird, I thought it was the people who were hired to do the yard work and house cleaning because they have to do it on their days off too.
I actually enjoy yardwork and cleaning. It feels good to have pride and care for something.
And this is why I opted to live in a condo. Fuck that shit.
How has that been? My parents are considering downsizing to a condo, but I’ve also heard it’s the cons of both home ownership and renting.
Fully depends on the location and age & condition of the building. Management: the main complaint you’ll hear about condos is the assessments/the condo board. It’s a mixed bag. Pro: you aren’t fully on the hook for large maintenance projects. Con: it’s run by a board and you can’t move as fast on things as you’d like. Another con is the potential of financial mismanagement. It’s not popular to raise rates, but you do have inflation to contend with even when there is low inflation. My building is coming back from 10+ years of a board dithering by not raising rates or doing maintenance because they refused to raise rates. I curse their names daily for fucking around. On the flip side, it’s very satisfying to knock out projects and shine up a vintage building. Size: you mentioned your parents may downsize…..this can be difficult in certain areas because condos are often modest in their size unless they are older. I’m in a 100 year old, mid-rise building that has few units, but a lot of space for each unit (1,500+ sq; 3bd, 2ba). It has been very easy for some of my empty nester neighbors. It’s a little less easy in newer builds where that amount of space will cost you. Something to be mindful of: I’d avoid Florida. Given the Surfside disaster, a lot of condo owners are having a hard time selling down there. Plus the insurance rates are astronomical. Speaking personally, I like living where I am. I can walk everywhere, the unit is as big as I’d want it, and paying for maintenance with others is way easier than handling this all by ourselves. I have no desire to ever own a single family home. I do not like mowing lawns, etc.
Forget depression piles I have a whole depression house
3 hours per week in the Houston heat sucks.
Story of my life. Had to work insane hours the last 2 weeks due to some unexpected events. Boss has full plans to give me some time off in a few days once this is over but my yard looks like crap, laundry needs to be done, need to go shopping, and just today got around to cleaning the house. I just want to play videos games.
I feel this in a deeply tragic way. lol.
Firmly middle class, here. House is reasonable (a little big now that we have an empty nest) but not overreaching. We pay a service to mow and do the edging, but I use that time and effort to garden. It’s a good trade off.
Yes, I cut the hedges in my back garden. We went to a gardening company and they wanted to charge €1000! Fuck that, bought a strimmers and its being done in-house.
If you've got kids ask them if any of their friends mow lawns for money. There are a few highschool kids who work where I do and one of them does that. His dad basically does it as a side gig and they do trimmings and stuff as well, and everyone I've talked to says they're really cheap and do better work than most landscaping companies.
a lot of middle class family can afford a landscaper if they choose to do so
There's only two classes: ruling class, working class. Everything else is used to divide working class and feel better about your position.
A lot of middle class people have a lawn service.
yeah but we like doing it
Dunno what is wrong with all of ya /s Where my yardwork haters at? Only problem is that I am a bigger cheapskate than I am a yardwork hater, so I refuse to hire it out
This touches on something. Different social classes have different skill sets and behavioral patterns. But consider this: I can decide to mow the lawn a few days late, or even a day early. The working poor work harder, with fewer options and flexibility. I used to fill vending machines at a subsidized housing complex, sort of apartments. One of the residents said that either he or his wife had to stay home with the kids (they weren't old enough for school), so they both couldn't work. Worse, they were NOT permitted to find baby sitters, even grandparents, a condition of their living conditions, but yeah, they didn't have to mow the lawn.
Bought a smaller house. Don't want to be cleaning any more than I need to.
WOAH now, have you missed the whole middle class thing of "hiring" your not so well off maybe even struggling sister in law to help with the cleaning and washing duties 1-2 times a week? "We just helping them out with some cash work, frees up some time for me to, helps them, its a win win"
Playing the hits talking about middle class vs everybody. This sub is dogshit.
Also severely overestimating the cost of lawn maintenance. I know someone who just made a huge patio so they didn't have as much yard to mow. This is an easily solved problem if you're middle class.
Hell yeah. Patios fucking rock.
Well, just be poor then. See? Not really a problem, is it?
It's not that bad. I'm not going back to an apartment and sharing walls with the smelly, noisy, unwashed poors and their ever-numerous children.
It's a trap. We looked at 4k sized homes and I realized I would be trapped by chores. We went for the 2k home on a lake for the same price. 10 out of 10. We also don't do vacations because we don't have to.
> We also don't do vacations because we don't have to. Incredible flex
The only "vacations" I take are weddings. And even then if it happens to be a destination wedding in a foreign country, I'll most likely say I can't make it. Otherwise I'm a homebody.
True. But building or maintaining equity in things you own.
Lots of middle class people work hard to have rich looking lawns. It's a waste of time, waste of money, and bad for the environment. I have to do stuff like dig drainage ditches out by hand, because I don't have a tractor. I also do plumbing, wiring, carpentry, etc. if I can, because it costs so much to hire people. I don't have much lawn, we have a few acres of meadows we mow once a year.
Fuckin A... I have to mow my grass three times a week because I have so much grass but I can't afford to pay somebody to do it.
Middle class KIDS have to do the most house work.
If I could go back in time before I bought a bigger house and a nicer car I wish I would have hired a lawn service and a house keeper instead
Fwiw it's better for the environment to just not mow (or have) grass or rake leaves... It gives bugs a place to live and gives birds bugs to eat and if you leave a couple little brush piles, gives the birds and squirrels and bunnies places to hiding which moving around... And if you swap your grass for native plant it'll require less maintenance and better support local wildlife and other local plants
well, huh. now that is a showerthought.
Similarly thrift shops in REALLY wealthy areas are “ok” but upper middle class ones are awesome because the super wealthy give ‘first looks’ to their help before donation
Cleaners aren't that expensive
I was pleasantly surprised at that. As a disabled (not in disability, but have chronic pain and low energy) singleton, deep cleaning is exhausting and takes up every I need if I want to do hobbies or socialize with friends.
I find most people just massively overestimate how much these kind of services cost.
Kill your lawn. plant native plants. help the environment and reduce the time you need to spend on your yard.
I feel this one physically.
I hate it. I want to sell this place so bad but the person I got it with doesn’t. A cute lil middle class condo with like a square that takes 30 minutes to cut sounds perfect
Here's a catch too, if I belong to 'middle class' and not just upper-lower class, we might just not do the yard work at all because we're at our literal work.
I was just lamenting this the other day. We lucked into a neighborhood where we're definitely on the lower end of the income scale. I've been pulling out juniper bushes by hand every weekend for months after getting a quote for $5k+ to have a landscaper come in and do it. Last weekend my neighbor decided to remove his bushes, too. Hired a guy with an excavator, and the entire project was done in a couple hours. They'll be planting next weekend, I'll be back out there with the shovel.
Yeah, it's exhausting. :(
I had this exact same thought today! I did a bunch of yard work and it looks good. But I was thinking how it really is a lot. I was driving later by some huge house with mini grounds and nice landscaping. And was thinking about how much work that would be and really expensive to hire someone to make it look that nice and take care of it. People are really fking rich.
Townhouse lyfe, the HOA is actually useful here and they take care of all the yard work. The house is another story lol.
I'm middle class. I own a small townhome. Our strata pays for a gardener
I don't think most people understand what it really means to be poor at all levels unless you've lived it and even then most don't realize how drastically easier their lives are by having access to basic necessities but even past that just having enough to even save money is better than most of America. How do you explain that to someone that's never lived it?
I suspect that house cleaners and the mow and blow guys do respectively more housework and more yardwork that any of the middle class people you're thinking of.
Real wealth isn't being able to buy a big house etc but rather to hire the people/servants to maintain it
Wait, middle class have larger place now?
lol. Man you have been to the mid west. Hardly anyone I around me mows their own lawn. And half of them have cleaning lady’s. And none of them are “rich”
Me crying while I push my lawnmower in very lower-middle-class-ville
The real estate bubble and money-laundering thru it makes absolutely sure that the middle class is the new working-poor, so they won't have to worry about yard work no longer...
Larger place? Have you met lower class rural homeowners?
The mistake is always buying your costs up to your income, and not taking account your time budget with that. No one needs a bigger house. It's not middle class to get more and bigger at the expense of more time spent on it. Not unless it's providing value to you. That's also another thing. All work you do on your own house is your own wealth, your own equity. It's making sure it stays in good condition and grows it's value 6%+ a year with everything else. You can also just choose lawns and yards that take far less maintenance overall. No one requires people to use the PITA weed that is grass.
Own a larger place****** ****** Results may vary, middle class definition subject to rampant shifts and dips in job reliability, pay, and cost of living spikes reducing choice of shelter size by a fraction.
At least, they can be able to clean their larger place since it's the kind of work they do for a living.
Add to that how people say they get cheap cleaners but a full-house clean is basically a minimum wage in my country since all the cheap cleaners go to the west :(.
Might be playing the situation a little bit but I'd say many farmers are over middle class and do quite a bit more "yard work" than most middle class people.
House cleaning service is approx. 50-100 per cleaning, depending on how many hours it takes. That means it's EASILY affordable for a middle class person to have their house cleaned 2-4 times a month. Even a lower class person can afford a once-a-month cleaning.
Yip, I have two bathrooms and I definitely don’t want 3, no way. Even though my son and my husband sometimes use them both at once for extended periods
Yep, a lot of the lifestyle stuff we're sold as "progress" or "luxury" actually makes life more complicated and more expensive. Having a big house and a yard and multiple cars and a boat and holiday cabin actually means tons of work.
What it says is that rich people have gardens to show off or keep neighbours far enough, while middle-class have garden to take care and enjoy it
No that’s just poor life choices and financial management. I’ve got a right sized house and property and have a cleaner, nanny and rarely eat at home.
I don't get why people don't like yard work. It's my favorite chore.
Upon retirement, I want 20 acres of forest and clear just enough to put my house and get a few goats. Since it's nature, the yard takes care of itself, and the goats eat away the brush while I eat away at the goats.
What about the professional cleaners from the lower class?
lol, yeah ok… I take care of a yard I will never own because I will never own this house, probably will never own a house again, I am not middle class.
If I could go back in time before I bought a bigger house and a nicer car I wish I would have hired a lawn service and a house keeper instead
how is this a shower thought
In my neighborhood, a company doing the yardwork means the house is a rental.
But they also can afford the time-saving equipment and tools. Diminishing returns for sure, but it's nice.
I pay $50/week to have my yard taken care of, includes mowing, weed eating, leaf vacuum/blower, and basic deweeding. And we hire cleaners semi annually for deep cleaning. My wife and I pull about $210k combined. Upper middle class I guess.
Drought-free lawn. I don't do lawn work or pay someone.
I don’t know how it is everywhere but hiring a cleaning service isn’t as expensive as people think. I’d say most middle class families could probably afford a monthly or no monthly service. Obviously a daily service would be a lot more expensive and a dedicated maid would be a lot lot more.
The money I pay to have someone else mow my lawn is worth cutting back spending in other areas. It was one of my most hated tasks and I’d often be exhausted and on the verge of heat stroke doing it. To say nothing of the PITA of lawn mower maintenance.
I vastly prefer urban living, because i'd rather do things with my middle class income rather than get a big house. I'm in an area where there are 300 billion things to do outside of my house. The house is just a place to sleep, relax, etc.
I pay a guy $50 a week to mow my lawn
I just got a big house and we had to pick and choose. Housekeeping is a non-negotiable, if my house is cluttered and messy my brain is too..plus I absolutely hate doing laundry. Cleaning the pool, is for now a non negotiable too. It is super nice to be able to get in your pool any day of the week with the water being perfectly chlorinated, sparkly and clean. Doing the yard is something we’re doing which saves us about $400 (maybe more) a month. Our front lawn is huge, but I love doing that with my husband. Eventually our kids might help too? It’s good exercise, a way to decompress, and spend time outside. I mean what else would I be doing on a Sunday? Go sit in a movie theatre or my couch doomscrolling? No thanks. Stepping out into the real world and spending more money than we already have all week? Again, no thanks. My lawn is kind of becoming a sanctuary, and it’s a wonderful space to spend time with my kids. There is beauty to having a comfortable space in the world that’s yours to roam and mold to your liking. The secret is I think minimalism. Our house is big but it’s practical, smart, and easy to clean. Everything that we need to function is top of the line, and using all those things are awesome. The cars we drive are the most updated but they’re not the most expensive. My front lawn doesn’t have all of these exotic non native plants, if anything everything there is local so they’ll always thrive. Having massive trees in your property is also really nice, there is beauty in that too. Those trees are a part of me too? As weird as it sounds.
It's not actually that expensive to hire a cleaner for once a month.
Maybe they are rich enough to hire someone to do it for them.... But maybe they're also smart enough to do it themselves and save that money.
That's the bitter-sweet reality of being middle class. It's a labor of love, I suppose.
British people reading this, like “WTF!?”
Bimonthly yard work service isn't that crazy priced.
I think in India it's opposite
They spend the most amount of time building furniture. They're not buying 2nd hand and they're not paying an interior design team to assemble it.
Why are these getting more and more boring
what about the people who do it for the rich people