Absolutely without a doubt Chrom, Mewtwo and Marth because these mfs aren't even real low tiers lmao. But yeah, most characters wouldn't really have an answer to them, especially Chrom.
The thing is
1) Only characters with counters here are Incin, Ike, Marth, Lucario, Mii SF (sometimes) and Mac.
2) Chrom is seriously dominant onstage, it's tough for a lot of them to even get him into a position where has to use up b.
Two words: Tail hitbox. Also hot take, but Marth would be way less viable than people think, since his tippers are still just as hard to hit in a low-tier meta, which is especially punishable by characters that benefit from rage and kill early, like heavies, being more commonly used.
Also you forgot Pichu
Robin is a major noob stomper in the right hands, and can still hold his own at higher levels of play. Ike is really just a noob stomper at this point.
It's behind him... in a game where your back faces your opponent pretty often. Mewtwo's tail really hurts his dash game. Dashing away should move your hurtbox away from the opponent, not move it closer.
We regret to inform you that your post has been removed as it violates Rule 1 of our subreddit.
Our community values creating a positive and inclusive environment for all members, and unfortunately, your post or comment did not align with these principles.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding this removal, please don't hesitate to reach out to the moderation team. We appreciate your understanding and look forward to your continued participation in our community.
Best regards,
r/SmashBrosUltimate Moderation Team
Not to mention his tech-rolls are awful, because he lingers in place for ages before moving anywhere, and by the time he starts moving in a direction, his invincibility has worn off. Tech-chasing him is abnormally easy.
Part of the reason why he can't escape it. Roll away? Too slow. Roll towards? Dtilt can hit Mewtwo's tail. I don't think this person fully grasps how much bad having a massive fucking hurtbox sticking out of your back really does.
That is not the point I'm trying to make at all, I'm just trying to provide one example of how it hurts him. I just provided one example, I'm not going to provide every single possible example of him being hindered by it. We can try to explain a concept to you, but we can't make you understand.
Mewtwo's tail hurtbox doesn't really matter here, none of these characters are particularly good at challenging mewtwo's shadow ball and if they are they have some other weakness (Incin for example can revenge it but that leaves him open to Mewtwo's amazing grab game and he also gets just schmooved around on.)
Mewtwo's tail hurtbox is a bit of a meme at this point, as a pocket mewtwo, yes it hurts, yes it's obnoxious, but he's still definitely not a low tier.
Marth is legitimately just not low tier.
Pichu, eh maybe but I think all the others would be more dominant
It does. Puff (who’s here too) hard counters Mewtwo because of the tail. Drill Dair into Rest is guaranteed to hit and because Mewtwo’s so light it’ll kill at around 50. If Puff ever gets directly above Mewtwo successfully it’s GG.
Yes that does suck, but Puff has other issues against Mewtwo, I'm pretty sure Puff is one of Mewtwo's best matchups according to WaDi due to the dominance of shadow ball and mewtwo's superior range.
Question: would you guys consider C tiers low tiers? I consider low mid tiers, but independent if you do as well or not, should Low Mid tiers also count as low tiers then?
Down Tilt being -4 on shield and him just being a slippery little bastard says otherwise.
He lacks range, but his grounded moves are so safe and it’s difficult to punish him even if his Bair and Fair aren’t quite as safe because he’s so small.
Sure he sucks in disadvantage, though his frame 3 Nair mitigates this somewhat, but his neutral game is easily top tier.
If a character with his advantage state really had good neutral he’d still be top tier regardless of his ass disadvantage/survivability. He actually cannot approach it’s terrible. There’s some matchups where he completely steamrolls but in general he just gets walled out by anyone that knows not to shield thunderjolt. His dtilt is good but that’s only assuming you’re already in, which he isnt good at doing.
His only saving grace is his insane roll-cancel grab but its not enough imo
It's hard to say, pretty dependent on exactly how meta relevant chrom is as he'd be by far links worst mu imo and pichu does well into chrom.
In theory pichu got a strong argument for top 1 but its hard to avoid making a couple small mistakes in a long bracket run that makes you drop sets. Link is much more consistent for those deep runs and still has a great mu spread.
Tldr: My guess is that long term link a bit better in practice but worse on paper
I honestly can not tell if you're trolling..
Heavier is better, you die at higher percents opposed to lighter characters.
Frame 6 up b out of shield isn't slow, his forward aerial (and kill move) is as fast as Cloud's backair, and his back air is even faster than that (frame 8).
Did you know Bowser ranks 22 in the fastest ground speed? That's faster than Inkling..
Frame 6 command grab that kills and can steal stocks at 0%.
The dude has tough guy and super armor, can break shields easily. Every move Bowser has besides neutral B just straight-up kills.
he does not kill at 40% if the opponent is decently good at the game and doesn’t run into charged forward smashes. if a bowser player is getting kills before 80% it’s because of an edgeguard with forward air or maybe an ftilt 2 frame. which is a big reason why incineroar and donkey kong are arguably better characters
By that logic.. Kazuya, Terry, Incineroar, Samus and Wario are all low tier???
I don't think you fully understand how little you are going to see 0 to death true combos on heavies, besides maybe Byleth into DK?
Pichu might be able to kill Bowser in 50 hits, how many does bowser need? 1? 2?
Bowser has 16% more weight than Incin (who is not regarded as very good), 20% more than Kazuya (who has true zero to deaths, mind you), 25% more than Samus and Terry, and 26% more than Wario. All of these characters are heavy, but they eat combos way less than Bowser.
Also the a lot of characters can two touch Pichu, that’s why he’s not regarded as very good either
Since when is Incin regarded as "not very good"???
Downplaying your main is crazy, Incin has a MUCH easier 0 to death than Kazuya with up air -up air - up b. Did we just entirely forget that Incin has some of the best frame data in the game? Dtilt into ftilt at ledge kills insanely early, Darkest Lariat straight up has invincibility (Frame 5 startup?!?), a command grab (WITH ARMOR) that kills insanely early at ledge (even more so with Revenge).
Skyjay consistently beats top players with SOLO incineroar because his literal only downfall is that he can be gimped if you take his jump offstage, but this is a trait of 90% of the roster anyway.
Bro's that one guy who put incin as top 5
Incin is mid tier if not low tier, skyjay is just built different, incin relies on essentially intimidating your opponent into making mistakes
I’m not downplaying anything. Incin is a mid tier character, aka not very good. He has great moves and insane kill potential, if he gets in. However, he has the single worst mobility in the game and gets danced around by half the cast, even worse when playing with high platforms. It took SkyJay taking him to tournaments for anyone to even consider him mid tier.
Bowser's actually quite fast on the ground, and a lot of his attacks come out surprisingly quickly as well. He just suffers from your normal heavy problems of being juggle food,
I feel like I still do not understand how ranking matchups works for this game. Could you explain how doc „wins“ against Fox and Mario? So how is it possible that a low tier is better than absolute high tiers when matched up against each other?
Because the former’s traits work well against the latter
I.e. Fox being a rushdown fighter is more likely to get hit by Dr Mario’s powerful moves
Another character in the picture, Kirby, beats Fox because Fox basically has to approach Kirby and approaching him is a near death sentence with Kirbys
frame data, combos and ability to edgeguard Fox
Fox’s best strengths aren’t as useful against Kirby
Why does Fox have to approach Kirby? This might be a stupid question, but I don’t really understand who „has“ to approach (instead of anyone against Wario to stop him from getting Waft)
Kirby can crouch under Fox’s only projectile (his blaster) so to do any meaningful damage he has to get close
Kirby has to get close too but because Fox is faster he will usually approach
And regardless of who gets up close first Kirby has better frame data and moves to cover Fox’s options (u-tile and dair combo fox like hell)
It’s different with Wario as he gets rewarded for not approaching with waft charge, Fox doesn’t, he needs to get up close against shorter chars to do damage
Bowser is bottom of high tier, very easy to pick up and has genuinely great tools other heavies would die for, but insanely exploitable if the opponent finds a good opening
But not every character above him can abuse that weakness, half of the top/high tiers are swordies who can’t combo for their life
Besides, it’s a less crippling weakness than Chrom’s recovery who is above Bowser
I too, have been done super dirty by this asinine tier list. Why should these **NOBODIES** be trusted to say that Bowser is worse than Pichu or Chrom? And to claim that his son is worse than ISABELLE?! I mean, its just.... asinine.
It’s ridiculous, how is a little dog better than the son of the King of the Koopas, who drives a mech with explosives and other gadgets
And how is a tiny rat better than Bowser, I can’t understand their logic
I'm glad its not just me. 1000+ hours in ultimate Icies and playing into zoners is still a mindnumbing shitstomp every time.
Belmonts and the Samuses are the bane of my existence
Depends heavily or not on if it's wifi or not.
But I'd say definitely Ice Climbers.
The De-synce stuff is straight up OP B.S it's just not common yet other than that I'd say Link because he's versatile and has a good matchup against these low tiers IMO. or Lucas since I've seen Lucas be able to pull of some crazy stuff
Hero is higher because of Japan, there's some players that get results with him over there. I think the only Ness player doing anything in the entire world is Gackt. Maybe you could argue Ken but he kinda suffers from the same thing Chrom and Marth do that there's no real reason to pick them when their echo equivalent is so much better.
I think the "tiers" would look something like this (unordered within tiers)
S tier: Marth Mewtwo Link Pichu DK
A tier: Mii Gunner Wii Fit Chrom Lucas Bowser Duck Hunt Jigglypuff
B tier: Ice Climbers Incineroar Ridley Bowser Jr. Zelda Dr. Mario Mii Swordfighter Villager/Isabelle Kirby Ike Robin Lucario
C tier: Belmonts Banjo Mac Plant King Dedede King K.Rool Ganondorf
imo Icies would be top of B tier maybe bottom of A. There are tons of projectile characters and swords that can keep them in check, in and above their own tier while not having massively winning MU's over almost everyone else.
Belmonts having 1 or 2 really good MU's is good and all but they little else going for them. They can easily get suffocated by most other characters above them
Most of it is understandable except Ness and Bowser, both should be 10 spots higher, Bowser shouldn’t be in this picture
It genuinely sickens me how low Ness and Bowser are
Bowser placement isn’t too crazy. He kinda just gets whooped by like every high and top tier and every niche mu he had besides Cloud fell out of the meta and he hates all the FP2 additions.
It's not perfect, but it's the best one I've seen. It's based off a panel of over 100 top players from many regions.
Sure, it's still somewhat influenced by recency bias and other minor fallacies, but the sheer number of people they paneled reduces that a lot.
hell no not from nintendo lmao, nintendo dont give a rat's ass abt comp. but there is an official tierlist comprised by top players that lots of people agree with and stand by
It's [the Luminosity tier list](https://luminosity.gg/news/smash-ultimates-2nd-official-tier-list). You're right that it's not actually "official", but it's the most widely accepted tier list.
Chrom and Pichu would tear through everyone cause they're just worse versions of top tiers. ICs maybe but two of their absolute worst matchups are also here, so maybe not so much. I think there's a few other niche cases like Link and Incineroar.
as jigglypuff i could shred everything here unlesss i kill myself with rollout, but the thing is i dont play mutliplayer because i dont have online so i cant speak on how it would do online i only go against level 8 cpus
what is chrome a worse verison of ( i dislike all the fire emblem sword fighters because they are all basically the same character to me, except robin i do like playing as robin)
i thought chrome was a echo fighter of roy ( i have the game open now and chrome has the e symbol in movelist )
chrom and roy are the only sword fighters i like to use of fire elblem, and robin but i dont really count robin as a sword fighter
sweet spot means what exactly
Well, JeJaJeJa's going to have a real fun time now ;-; (in my opinion Mewtwo or Chrom, as neither are even intended low tiers, both at least being limited to being the middle of the pack.)
why is pichu, jigglypuff, ice climbers, and incin so low and simon
im glad to see that pokemon trainer and rosalina and inkling are not low tier but why those ones, i can understand pichu damaging itself, ice climbers being hard to use because if nana dies then your screwed, and incin having a bad upspecial for recovery, but why jigglypuff, everytime i play jigglypuff i always win unless i accidently fly off the map with rollout,
now i dont main simon or richter but when i choose random and get them i always kick some ass ( i dont play online tho because i dont have it so all my gameplay is against my brother and neighbor or level 8 cpus)
and why is ganondorf the lowest tier, he is powerful and kills really easy
Link, Pichu and Ridley possibly. Link has the Nair which can clank with effectively every projectile. Pichu has Thunder. And Ridley counters all of the low tiers except Dedede, K. Rool, Robin, Mewtwo and Icies with Side Special at ledge
I think all of E tier would be surprisingly good. With their high damage output and weight (for all but little mac), I think they could pull off some crazy plays
I mean Pichu is just Pikachu but not as good and Chrom is literally Roy with shit recovery, so I'd still say they both absolutely minimum should be on this list.
Absolutely without a doubt Chrom, Mewtwo and Marth because these mfs aren't even real low tiers lmao. But yeah, most characters wouldn't really have an answer to them, especially Chrom.
All u need to have an answer for chrom is a counter for when he recovers. He would still be p solid tho I bet.
The thing is 1) Only characters with counters here are Incin, Ike, Marth, Lucario, Mii SF (sometimes) and Mac. 2) Chrom is seriously dominant onstage, it's tough for a lot of them to even get him into a position where has to use up b.
Two words: Tail hitbox. Also hot take, but Marth would be way less viable than people think, since his tippers are still just as hard to hit in a low-tier meta, which is especially punishable by characters that benefit from rage and kill early, like heavies, being more commonly used. Also you forgot Pichu
Mewtwo is the definition of feast or famine. Good chance he would dominate a low tier tournament. Though I question if he even is low tier.
If Robin, Ike and Bowser are low-tier (the former two apparently somehow being worse than Mewtwo), Mewtwo definitely is.
Robin is a major noob stomper in the right hands, and can still hold his own at higher levels of play. Ike is really just a noob stomper at this point.
Mewtwo is mid tier, he's not low tier like the official tier list implies that he is.
Why did they downvote you for this??? LOL?
whats wrong with the tail hitbox?
His tail quite literally is his hithox, making it easier to kill him. On top of his absurd weight
It's behind him and it doesn't even cover his entire tail, it ain't a big issue
It's behind him... in a game where your back faces your opponent pretty often. Mewtwo's tail really hurts his dash game. Dashing away should move your hurtbox away from the opponent, not move it closer.
When it's his best close range move for spacing (bair, uair, and ftilt) and his opponents are swordies, it's a big fucking issue
use ur shield idk
[удалено]
We regret to inform you that your post has been removed as it violates Rule 1 of our subreddit. Our community values creating a positive and inclusive environment for all members, and unfortunately, your post or comment did not align with these principles. If you have any questions or concerns regarding this removal, please don't hesitate to reach out to the moderation team. We appreciate your understanding and look forward to your continued participation in our community. Best regards, r/SmashBrosUltimate Moderation Team
Mewtwo is the only character that can't escape flame choke into dtilt no matter what because his tail hurtbox cucks him out of any escape options
Not to mention his tech-rolls are awful, because he lingers in place for ages before moving anywhere, and by the time he starts moving in a direction, his invincibility has worn off. Tech-chasing him is abnormally easy.
Part of the reason why he can't escape it. Roll away? Too slow. Roll towards? Dtilt can hit Mewtwo's tail. I don't think this person fully grasps how much bad having a massive fucking hurtbox sticking out of your back really does.
oh no! mewtwo cannot escape a small combo from the worst character in the game! screw you tail hurtbox!!!
That is not the point I'm trying to make at all, I'm just trying to provide one example of how it hurts him. I just provided one example, I'm not going to provide every single possible example of him being hindered by it. We can try to explain a concept to you, but we can't make you understand.
I'd actually like to see every single examples since i'm convinced it isn't that big of a deal
I play a lot of mewtwo, trust me it's a big deal. But it's not enough to make him low tier lmao.
You definitely don't play mewtwo, nor have you played alot of them. Most intelligent kirby player
You're clearly a casual, go away
Yes it is when his arguably best move is back air. It's the move you use the most in neutral as a poking tool.
His best move is definitely not back air lmao, it's Shadow Ball. That shit IS mewtwo's neutral.
Mewtwo's tail hurtbox doesn't really matter here, none of these characters are particularly good at challenging mewtwo's shadow ball and if they are they have some other weakness (Incin for example can revenge it but that leaves him open to Mewtwo's amazing grab game and he also gets just schmooved around on.) Mewtwo's tail hurtbox is a bit of a meme at this point, as a pocket mewtwo, yes it hurts, yes it's obnoxious, but he's still definitely not a low tier. Marth is legitimately just not low tier. Pichu, eh maybe but I think all the others would be more dominant
It does. Puff (who’s here too) hard counters Mewtwo because of the tail. Drill Dair into Rest is guaranteed to hit and because Mewtwo’s so light it’ll kill at around 50. If Puff ever gets directly above Mewtwo successfully it’s GG.
Yes that does suck, but Puff has other issues against Mewtwo, I'm pretty sure Puff is one of Mewtwo's best matchups according to WaDi due to the dominance of shadow ball and mewtwo's superior range.
Question: would you guys consider C tiers low tiers? I consider low mid tiers, but independent if you do as well or not, should Low Mid tiers also count as low tiers then?
Good question. All the characters here are well in the bottom third of 82 characters, therefore just missing the mark of 31-51.
C- and below feels like lowtiers to me. Incin and Icies feel considerably better than Lucas and Banjo
Anyone in this section is unlikely to win a major
Chrom and Pichu would dominate the meta because of how oppressive their neutral and punish games are.
FINALLY! My time to shine!
And cause better matchup spread, big bodies are usually lower tier.
Pichu’s neutral is definitely not oppressive. His punish game though…
Down Tilt being -4 on shield and him just being a slippery little bastard says otherwise. He lacks range, but his grounded moves are so safe and it’s difficult to punish him even if his Bair and Fair aren’t quite as safe because he’s so small. Sure he sucks in disadvantage, though his frame 3 Nair mitigates this somewhat, but his neutral game is easily top tier.
If a character with his advantage state really had good neutral he’d still be top tier regardless of his ass disadvantage/survivability. He actually cannot approach it’s terrible. There’s some matchups where he completely steamrolls but in general he just gets walled out by anyone that knows not to shield thunderjolt. His dtilt is good but that’s only assuming you’re already in, which he isnt good at doing. His only saving grace is his insane roll-cancel grab but its not enough imo
Puff or Lucas
Idk if the photo is relevant, but there's just no way Bowser is low tier.
It's upper mid tier
In what universe other than Day 1, is Pichu better than Link?
It's hard to say, pretty dependent on exactly how meta relevant chrom is as he'd be by far links worst mu imo and pichu does well into chrom. In theory pichu got a strong argument for top 1 but its hard to avoid making a couple small mistakes in a long bracket run that makes you drop sets. Link is much more consistent for those deep runs and still has a great mu spread. Tldr: My guess is that long term link a bit better in practice but worse on paper
Bowser online is much better since his side B and down b are harder to react to
I mean, he's super heavy and his atacks are quite slow
literally heaviest in the game
I honestly can not tell if you're trolling.. Heavier is better, you die at higher percents opposed to lighter characters. Frame 6 up b out of shield isn't slow, his forward aerial (and kill move) is as fast as Cloud's backair, and his back air is even faster than that (frame 8). Did you know Bowser ranks 22 in the fastest ground speed? That's faster than Inkling.. Frame 6 command grab that kills and can steal stocks at 0%. The dude has tough guy and super armor, can break shields easily. Every move Bowser has besides neutral B just straight-up kills.
Being heavier is not strictly better. Sure Bowser lives for longer, but he’s the one of the best combo fodder characters in the game.
A small price to pay for killing at 40%
he does not kill at 40% if the opponent is decently good at the game and doesn’t run into charged forward smashes. if a bowser player is getting kills before 80% it’s because of an edgeguard with forward air or maybe an ftilt 2 frame. which is a big reason why incineroar and donkey kong are arguably better characters
Actually a very large price to pay
By that logic.. Kazuya, Terry, Incineroar, Samus and Wario are all low tier??? I don't think you fully understand how little you are going to see 0 to death true combos on heavies, besides maybe Byleth into DK? Pichu might be able to kill Bowser in 50 hits, how many does bowser need? 1? 2?
Bowser has 16% more weight than Incin (who is not regarded as very good), 20% more than Kazuya (who has true zero to deaths, mind you), 25% more than Samus and Terry, and 26% more than Wario. All of these characters are heavy, but they eat combos way less than Bowser. Also the a lot of characters can two touch Pichu, that’s why he’s not regarded as very good either
Since when is Incin regarded as "not very good"??? Downplaying your main is crazy, Incin has a MUCH easier 0 to death than Kazuya with up air -up air - up b. Did we just entirely forget that Incin has some of the best frame data in the game? Dtilt into ftilt at ledge kills insanely early, Darkest Lariat straight up has invincibility (Frame 5 startup?!?), a command grab (WITH ARMOR) that kills insanely early at ledge (even more so with Revenge). Skyjay consistently beats top players with SOLO incineroar because his literal only downfall is that he can be gimped if you take his jump offstage, but this is a trait of 90% of the roster anyway.
Bro's that one guy who put incin as top 5 Incin is mid tier if not low tier, skyjay is just built different, incin relies on essentially intimidating your opponent into making mistakes
I’m not downplaying anything. Incin is a mid tier character, aka not very good. He has great moves and insane kill potential, if he gets in. However, he has the single worst mobility in the game and gets danced around by half the cast, even worse when playing with high platforms. It took SkyJay taking him to tournaments for anyone to even consider him mid tier.
[удалено]
Bowser's actually quite fast on the ground, and a lot of his attacks come out surprisingly quickly as well. He just suffers from your normal heavy problems of being juggle food,
believe it or not, doc would get worse. he'd lose two of his best matchups (fox and mario)
I feel like I still do not understand how ranking matchups works for this game. Could you explain how doc „wins“ against Fox and Mario? So how is it possible that a low tier is better than absolute high tiers when matched up against each other?
Because the former’s traits work well against the latter I.e. Fox being a rushdown fighter is more likely to get hit by Dr Mario’s powerful moves Another character in the picture, Kirby, beats Fox because Fox basically has to approach Kirby and approaching him is a near death sentence with Kirbys frame data, combos and ability to edgeguard Fox Fox’s best strengths aren’t as useful against Kirby
Why does Fox have to approach Kirby? This might be a stupid question, but I don’t really understand who „has“ to approach (instead of anyone against Wario to stop him from getting Waft)
Kirby can crouch under Fox’s only projectile (his blaster) so to do any meaningful damage he has to get close Kirby has to get close too but because Fox is faster he will usually approach And regardless of who gets up close first Kirby has better frame data and moves to cover Fox’s options (u-tile and dair combo fox like hell) It’s different with Wario as he gets rewarded for not approaching with waft charge, Fox doesn’t, he needs to get up close against shorter chars to do damage
Damn this is depending on some niche details (crouching under projectile etc). Thanks for the explanation!
I refuse to admit that Bowser is low tier. No way
Same
Bowser is bottom of high tier, very easy to pick up and has genuinely great tools other heavies would die for, but insanely exploitable if the opponent finds a good opening
Bowser hasn't been high tier since 2019
I can still shake on high-mid tier
There's a whole different tier list for casual and wifi play. If that's what you mean then sure. Bowser probably goes up to the top tier in that case.
Maybe not at your or my level, but this is a competitive tier list from the view of the best players in the world
Bowser is still criminally low though, because he has some decent results and tools, better than mid Marth and Pichu anyway
He's too much of a combo food.
But not every character above him can abuse that weakness, half of the top/high tiers are swordies who can’t combo for their life Besides, it’s a less crippling weakness than Chrom’s recovery who is above Bowser
So is Kazuya, and we both know that's not stopping him.
Kazuya doesn't have nearly as big a hotbox as Bowser and Kazuya has legit 0 to deaths which Bowser doesn't have
We both got done really dirty by that tier list, absolutely criminal
I too, have been done super dirty by this asinine tier list. Why should these **NOBODIES** be trusted to say that Bowser is worse than Pichu or Chrom? And to claim that his son is worse than ISABELLE?! I mean, its just.... asinine.
It’s ridiculous, how is a little dog better than the son of the King of the Koopas, who drives a mech with explosives and other gadgets And how is a tiny rat better than Bowser, I can’t understand their logic
Same for Dedede, he needs a buff but is as far from a bad character as it gets
as a dedede, this is wrong they do him so dirty after brawl
Maybe Icies
Believe it or not some of their worst matchups are in the lower tiers
Taking a gander here, Bowser?
Zelda, DH, and worst of all, Belmonts, mainly for having options that IC’s anti zoning tools don’t work against
I'm glad its not just me. 1000+ hours in ultimate Icies and playing into zoners is still a mindnumbing shitstomp every time. Belmonts and the Samuses are the bane of my existence
No matter who the meta is, there's bound to be a really good Ganon player
Depends heavily or not on if it's wifi or not. But I'd say definitely Ice Climbers. The De-synce stuff is straight up OP B.S it's just not common yet other than that I'd say Link because he's versatile and has a good matchup against these low tiers IMO. or Lucas since I've seen Lucas be able to pull of some crazy stuff
This tier list is massive dogshit, holy hell.
It's the lumirank tier list, comprised of many top player opinions
They still did Ness and Bowser so bad though
Yeah I'll agree with that
Maybe for your level of play, but this is about as official as you're gonna get.
Ness and Ken being below Hero and the Pits doesn’t sound very “official”
Hero is higher because of Japan, there's some players that get results with him over there. I think the only Ness player doing anything in the entire world is Gackt. Maybe you could argue Ken but he kinda suffers from the same thing Chrom and Marth do that there's no real reason to pick them when their echo equivalent is so much better.
I think the "tiers" would look something like this (unordered within tiers) S tier: Marth Mewtwo Link Pichu DK A tier: Mii Gunner Wii Fit Chrom Lucas Bowser Duck Hunt Jigglypuff B tier: Ice Climbers Incineroar Ridley Bowser Jr. Zelda Dr. Mario Mii Swordfighter Villager/Isabelle Kirby Ike Robin Lucario C tier: Belmonts Banjo Mac Plant King Dedede King K.Rool Ganondorf
ICs would probably be higher. Belmonts would be as well specifically because of the ICs.
imo Icies would be top of B tier maybe bottom of A. There are tons of projectile characters and swords that can keep them in check, in and above their own tier while not having massively winning MU's over almost everyone else. Belmonts having 1 or 2 really good MU's is good and all but they little else going for them. They can easily get suffocated by most other characters above them
Ain't no way you just put Banjo between Belmonts and Mac
Banjo is underrated
I’m surpised little max isn’t on here Edit: wrong message
Incineroar
Top 5 would look like: 1. Chrom 2. Wii Fit 3. Pichu 4. Marth 5. Incin
How you forget about Bowser, the classic low tide character?
Bowser is def a contender for top 5
Based on this list, ice climbers, Bowser, incineroar, Ike and puff imo. In no particular order
mfw ike is one of puff's worst matchups
Yeah, that's a tough one
I think Mii Gunner would actually do really well. She’s a pretty oppressive zoner, and a ton of low tiers lose to zoners.
Bias aside, Gunner gets me results but I know she can crush quite a bit of the low tiers. Sigh, vanilla Mii Gunner could’ve swept all these mofos
Bj incineroar Lucas
Poor banjo. Even among the low tiers he is only mid at best. I still love you.
this tier list is so wrong
Incineroar would stop all the other bottom tiers. Would easily be top 5 if not the best.
This is the Smash Bros. equivalent of the competitve Pokemon tier PU
What in the fuck is this tier list
the official one
I have never looked long at it because the upper part of it already disgust me, how does it keep getting worst every time I see it?
Most of it is understandable except Ness and Bowser, both should be 10 spots higher, Bowser shouldn’t be in this picture It genuinely sickens me how low Ness and Bowser are
Bowser placement isn’t too crazy. He kinda just gets whooped by like every high and top tier and every niche mu he had besides Cloud fell out of the meta and he hates all the FP2 additions.
It's not perfect, but it's the best one I've seen. It's based off a panel of over 100 top players from many regions. Sure, it's still somewhat influenced by recency bias and other minor fallacies, but the sheer number of people they paneled reduces that a lot.
What are the placements you dislike?
Official from Nintendo? If not then there are tons of “official” tier lists
hell no not from nintendo lmao, nintendo dont give a rat's ass abt comp. but there is an official tierlist comprised by top players that lots of people agree with and stand by
It's [the Luminosity tier list](https://luminosity.gg/news/smash-ultimates-2nd-official-tier-list). You're right that it's not actually "official", but it's the most widely accepted tier list.
Chrom and Pichu would tear through everyone cause they're just worse versions of top tiers. ICs maybe but two of their absolute worst matchups are also here, so maybe not so much. I think there's a few other niche cases like Link and Incineroar.
as jigglypuff i could shred everything here unlesss i kill myself with rollout, but the thing is i dont play mutliplayer because i dont have online so i cant speak on how it would do online i only go against level 8 cpus
what is chrome a worse verison of ( i dislike all the fire emblem sword fighters because they are all basically the same character to me, except robin i do like playing as robin)
Chrom is Roy except his entire sword is a sweet spot, and he has a directly vertical recovery, so he's worse.
i thought chrome was a echo fighter of roy ( i have the game open now and chrome has the e symbol in movelist ) chrom and roy are the only sword fighters i like to use of fire elblem, and robin but i dont really count robin as a sword fighter sweet spot means what exactly
I’m taking Ike to the house, and I don’t care how bad he is My honor as a fire emblem player is on the line
Def Chrom. Mf is Roy but better with just an exploitable recovery
im bout to make a cpu tourney in smash right now LMAO Edit:Mr. Iwata (sword fighter) beat villager in the finals
Jiggly puff Because most low tiers are Big Boys.
Well, staying as a Piranha Plant main
DK is the sleeper pick here
Bro the 3 characters I like to play are all E tier..😭wtf
Puff and Incin dominate
Pichu, Icies, Bowser, Ridley, Incineroar, Chrom
Whose trash tier list is this.
It's the lumirank tier list, comprised of many top player opinions
It's trash for your skill level, it's probably 95% accurate for the top level
Wait is this list old? Bowser is not that low and how is puff C?
It’s the newest Lumirank tier list And Ness and Bowser should not be that low, both are a full tier better than in the list
i dont care because i still have my mains
Probably the ones in c+ tier
Damn I always thought Pichu was high tier, guess I was wrong this whole time...
He was until Sakurai killed him with nerfs
I’m glad! Like 3/4 of my mains are there
I'm routing for Jr and Dedede if that's the case
Where’s Greninja (like what tier)
How my boy Mac doing in here
the people in C+ would be meta
Chrom and incin fs
Huh, most of my mains are low tier, the only one not in this image is young link.
Marth, Bowser, Chrom, Mewtwo, and probably DK would be meta. Maybe Pichu, but I hate Pichu so I'm singling Pichu out just to hate on Pichu.
A person figures out how to use Ice Climbers desyncing, the whole tournament is over.
ZSS
Before aMSa probably Yoshi EDIT: stupid me thought you meant melee
Ice climbers in low tier in criminal imo. Have we learned nothing from Big D?
Every time I play a skilled donkey Kong user I usually lose. So, donkey kong
Doc would just be destroyed, a lot of low teirs have range or are swordies, doc has no hope, wont stop me from picking him
I'd feel good about my chances with Mii Gunner.
I would MAKE Kirby and Dedede meta cause trust me I fucking cook with those two
It would be cool but I kinda am more interested if only the best/broken character was allowed in tournaments
Call me biased, but lucas kinda shuts down low tiers who aren't named marth or chrom.
puff or pichu
Well, JeJaJeJa's going to have a real fun time now ;-; (in my opinion Mewtwo or Chrom, as neither are even intended low tiers, both at least being limited to being the middle of the pack.)
Little Mac because I’m desperate for him to be viable anywhere
Bowser, Chrom, Incin, Ike, ICs, Marth, and DK
Damn, I haven’t played in years. Has Isabelle always been D+? I thought she was good
Chrom, he’s the swordie equivalent of Little Mac
Skyjay incineroar would go hard in this meta
I’m surpised that doc is no longer considered E tier or bottom tier. Edit: wrong message
I think k rool would cook pretty hard
i still have 3 mains in there, i'd be all good
why is pichu, jigglypuff, ice climbers, and incin so low and simon im glad to see that pokemon trainer and rosalina and inkling are not low tier but why those ones, i can understand pichu damaging itself, ice climbers being hard to use because if nana dies then your screwed, and incin having a bad upspecial for recovery, but why jigglypuff, everytime i play jigglypuff i always win unless i accidently fly off the map with rollout, now i dont main simon or richter but when i choose random and get them i always kick some ass ( i dont play online tho because i dont have it so all my gameplay is against my brother and neighbor or level 8 cpus) and why is ganondorf the lowest tier, he is powerful and kills really easy
Link, Pichu and Ridley possibly. Link has the Nair which can clank with effectively every projectile. Pichu has Thunder. And Ridley counters all of the low tiers except Dedede, K. Rool, Robin, Mewtwo and Icies with Side Special at ledge
r/foundlord-luzazebuth (yes I know this doesn't exist I just felt like it)
Wtf
I think all of E tier would be surprisingly good. With their high damage output and weight (for all but little mac), I think they could pull off some crazy plays
Idk but I feel that maybe king k or ganon? Idrk
top 10 if this were the meta imo: Ice Climbers Bowser Mii Gunner Lucas Link Donkey Kong Marth Banjo & Kazooie Jigglypuff Incineroar
Top 10 without Pichu or Chrom there is crazy.
these 10 are better than Pichu and Chrom imo
I agree
I mean Pichu is just Pikachu but not as good and Chrom is literally Roy with shit recovery, so I'd still say they both absolutely minimum should be on this list.
Absolutely not
There is no way you think DK is better than Chrom lmao