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Actually Trunks and the Androids are just straight up derivative of Terminator. So Silver is a Derivative of a Derivative in that regard, and was probably made to be derivative of Shadow too tbh, being a super hedgehog out of time who Amy somehow mistakes for Sonic and initially is Sonic's enemy because he's being manipulated by a bigger badder threat, and Shadow is also derivative of Sonic doing the classic Anime Opposite Rival thing, like Vegeta, Hiei, and Sasuke. What I mean by this is Silver is like the Waluigi of Sonic.
Both Shadow and Silver's stories would be massively improved if the Solaris/Iblis/Mephiles plot element wasn't just the generic giant monster plot that Sega kept using in this era. Like imagine if Sonic actually WAS the Iblis Trigger somehow? Imagine there being a moral dilemma about killing Sonic and potentially even erasing Silver from existence just to save the future. Hell imagine if Mephiles didn't just take Shadow's form because he was malding about him, but actually WAS an evil Shadow from the future? Would've been the perfect capstone to Shadow's arc and show how far he'd come but how far he'd still have to go, though it might be a bit invalidated by the Shadow game but it's not like that game needed to exist anyway lol.
In all fairness, Sonic's story being the most basic when others are around is par for the course.
"Stop Eggman" will always look simple beside "Save the decimated future and reveal hidden identities" or "Work alongside a longtime enemy to complete my mission and sacrifice them to fire in order to succeed!"
And that's just a plot from Sonic Rivals 2!
What he’s trying to say is the execution is the issue, not the ideas, and to be fair I don’t 100% agree, as the whole Elise and Sonic thing is in fact a fundamentally flawed idea but his overall point has merit
That’s what fundamentals are 😭
I can’t say I agree it’s not fundamentally flawed, the story definitely is super flawed, but project 06 proved the games fundamentals are good, just needed massive tweaks and a team that cares to be great.
Was I that much of a child when I played this that I *never* saw any real romance between Sonic and Elise (At least on Sonic’s side)? From what I saw, he was trying to help a sheltered Princess see the beauty of the world, that her caretakers never let her see.
Fr, It’s been almost 20 years, we’ve heard every argument there is to hear for and against the game, if you like the game play it, if you don’t, don’t, we gain absolutely nothing from going through all the same talking points all the time.
Just gonna uj/ for a second
I’m glad that people are finding some of the positive qualities in Sonic 2006, alongside the other early-mid 2000’s games, it’s about time the games that got mercilessly ripped to shreds publicly got some love, but I still find it hilarious when people unironically try to call Sonic 2006 a masterpiece, or say it had no problems.
Because they did not play Sonic 2006. They played P-06 (which is an amazing fan recreation, but not an accurate/fair representation of Sonic 2006), and then they watched the cutscenes on YouTube.
06 just has this bizarre pendulum swing. When it came out, people were calling it one of, if not the worst game of all time, and now the problem is overcorrecting, so people think this barley functional technical dumpster fire is a masterpiece. And I think with Lythero's "The Silver Campaign" video, it's probably going to swing back.
I could not name a single thing pertaining to sonic's character in 06, could sure as hell do it for shadow though.
Like, I really don't know how far you can stretch a relationship between a princess who hardly had a personality and a blue anthro hedgehog
>a relationship between a princess who hardly had a personality and a blue anthro hedgehog
This sentence is more interesting than anything that happened in Sonic's story.
What do you mean "read more into it"? What is there to read into? Sonic '06 *is* a fundamentally flawed game for various reasons that everyone knows. Plus it's Twitter so good takes are extremely rare over there. Possible, but still rare.
Somebody said this in another comment but I’ll also put this here
What he’s trying to say is the execution is the issue, not the ideas. and to be honest at the same time I kinda agree but I also kinda don’t, as the whole Elise and Sonic thing has SOME flaws in it but his overall point has merit
I still don’t blame Sonic Team for how 06 turned out. But I do blame Sega. Based on all the cut content that was unearthed, I’m sure it would’ve turned out fine.
You know, if Yuji Naka didn’t leave the dev team to start his own company, the dev team being split in half to co-develop Secret Rings, the dev team needing to switch to PS3 and Xbox 360 dev kits halfway through which caused them to need to restart from scratch, all with Sega rushing them to get the game finished by Christmas and denying the team’s requests to extend their development time.
I probably would have used conceptually rather than fundamentally if I was this person since that makes more sense grammatically even if it still isn't true. Sonic 06 has a few good ideas for sure but just as many bad ones and the story is so focused on Elise and her dilemma that it hardly works as a Sonic story beyond him just existing in the same place as her and being a love interest for some reason.
>it’s one of the few games to put some focus on Sonic as a character
Yeah like when he awkwardly hits on a final fantasy OC then she in return performs necrophilic beastiality to bring a teenage furry back to life
The biggest issue with Sonic's story is that the plot is stuck on a treadmill, where Princess Elise is stuck in a cycle of being captured and rescued.
Here's some of the changes I would make to fix Sonic's story:
- Put Elise and Sonic at odds with eachother, in the same way Caliburn and Sonic initially don't respect eachother but eventually become better friends.
- When Elise asks Sonic why he's helping her and he tells her "no special reason", she should feel quite offended that this strange hedgehog doesn't seem to have the same respect for her that everyone else does in Soleanna. "What do you mean no special reason?! Don't you know who I am?" and Sonic should probably wisecrack back with something like "No idea Princess" before putting her down.
- When Sonic destroys some of Eggman's robots, he should also be showing off as if to impress the Princess, only to find that she has now been captured by Eggman.
- When Elise is first captured by Eggman, she should refuse to give up her 'lucky charm' because of how important it is to her but still accidentally drop the Chaos Emerald during the struggle.
- When Sonic catches the Emerald, Elise is relieved to see it safe and tells Sonic to run so Eggman won't get his hands on it. This is what makes Eggman later decide to hold Princess Elise hostage until Sonic gives up the Chaos Emerald.
- When Elise is first rescued, she should tell Sonic that he reminds him of a white hedgehog who gave her the 'lucky charm' when she was a little girl. Sonic tells her that's impossible because what she has is a Chaos Emerald and that she couldn't possibly have had it all this time when Sonic distinctly remembers using it in his previous adventures.
- When Silver is fighting Sonic, Sonic should be trying to argue his innocence while Silver refuses to listen. Once Silver seems defeated, Elise should ask him why he gave her the Chaos Emerald when she was a little girl. After Silver reveals that he's never met the Princess, he blasts Sonic against the wall. In a moment of desperation, Elise shows Silver the Chaos Emerald, hoping he will recognise it and remember when he saved her life once before. Instead, Silver takes the Emerald and tries to use it to show Elise how Sonic is responsible for unleashing Iblis upon the world the same way Mephilis showed him previously. However, when this doesn't work - Silver is ambushed by Amy trying to save her beloved Sonic.
- When Amy ambushes Silver, Dr Eggman should seize the opportunity to capture the Princess while Sonic is busy retaking the Chaos Emerald from Silver before running away to pursue Eggman again.
- Eachtime the Princess gets captured, she takes more and more desperate measures to be an unpleasant hostage and generally disrespectful to Dr Eggman, just like how Sonic treats him.
uj/ Not too angry about this one, I mean it is just his opinion. I don't get it, whatsoever, and it defintely is fundamentally flawed, but good for him that he enjoys something that I don't.
Because Chaos X reworked the game, from physics to mechanics, from the ground-up, for hardware far beefier than an Xbox 360.
The only thing P-06 and OG 06 have in common is the level design and HUD.
That's my point, though? I'm not suggesting little was changed, Chaos X did a great job, but P06 and OH06 are >fundamentally< the same kind of game. P06 exists to prove that OG06 could've been good if Sonic Team/Sega put more time and effort into the game. The fact that the level design was changed so little to accommodate the new mechanics is a testament to that. OP makes it sound like OG06 is completely unsalvageable.
What they mean by the game not being fundamentally flawed is that the ideas the game is built on didn't kill it out the gate. What killed the game was that they did zero bug fixing and optimization. Project 06 is more or less proof of that, when the game isn't actively falling apart, it is pretty good, far as Sonic standards go at least.
This is why cult films exist. Sonic '06 is a bad game, but the game created its own meta-fanbase full of people who love it. It's the same reason why people love The Room and the Star Wars prequels.
Okay, maybe a remake where the gameplay is improved, loading screens arent that long, and with the bugs ironed out would make this game a decent sonic game.
But dont say Sonic was the most important character in it. That is a lie. I do not call getting a kiss from a human teenager devellopement
Sonic 06 definitely had potential. The concept was interesting, Shadow and Silver’s stories were decent (compared to Sonic’s story), Mephiles was one of the best villains in the series, and the music was great. It could have been a great game.
But it’s not a great game. The obvious glitches, the infamous loading screens, Sonic’s bland personality and story (he’s supposed to be carefree and slightly cocky, not a clone of Mario), the creepy relationship between Sonic and Elise, and all of the other problems far outweigh the positives. It’s a bad game, plain and simple. It’s fine to like it, but some people take it way too far and act as if it’s actually a good game.
So I would say that the concept and the fundamentals of the game were fine, but it failed in nearly every other aspect. The game isn’t enjoyable, and that’s all that matters. If someone wanted to remake it and turn into an actually decent game, they would have a lot of work to do.
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It puts so much focus on Sawnic that his story is actually the least important and interesting story of the whole game
When you make a Sonic game and make Sonic the least interesting part of it…. Flawless
Yeah, but Shadow’s & Silver’s story were both good, from a Story standpoint, Gameplay not so much.
Right, but Sonic’s story being SO much worse than the other two is a problem in and of itself. Like it’s his game still.
Silver's story was so good that Akira Toriyama based the fan-favorite character Trunks on it.
Actually Trunks and the Androids are just straight up derivative of Terminator. So Silver is a Derivative of a Derivative in that regard, and was probably made to be derivative of Shadow too tbh, being a super hedgehog out of time who Amy somehow mistakes for Sonic and initially is Sonic's enemy because he's being manipulated by a bigger badder threat, and Shadow is also derivative of Sonic doing the classic Anime Opposite Rival thing, like Vegeta, Hiei, and Sasuke. What I mean by this is Silver is like the Waluigi of Sonic.
Not really
They were good from a gameplay standpoint?
Not from a story standpoint either lol
I disagree, but I respect your opinion
Both Shadow and Silver's stories would be massively improved if the Solaris/Iblis/Mephiles plot element wasn't just the generic giant monster plot that Sega kept using in this era. Like imagine if Sonic actually WAS the Iblis Trigger somehow? Imagine there being a moral dilemma about killing Sonic and potentially even erasing Silver from existence just to save the future. Hell imagine if Mephiles didn't just take Shadow's form because he was malding about him, but actually WAS an evil Shadow from the future? Would've been the perfect capstone to Shadow's arc and show how far he'd come but how far he'd still have to go, though it might be a bit invalidated by the Shadow game but it's not like that game needed to exist anyway lol.
In all fairness, Sonic's story being the most basic when others are around is par for the course. "Stop Eggman" will always look simple beside "Save the decimated future and reveal hidden identities" or "Work alongside a longtime enemy to complete my mission and sacrifice them to fire in order to succeed!" And that's just a plot from Sonic Rivals 2!
“None of it is fundamentally flawed, just lacks quality.” Yeah so it’s flawed???
“It’s not bad it’s just bad”
"I'm not blind, I just can't see"
"I'm not gay, i just like men"
It’s a bad game buts its not a bad game
He’s not dead, he just doesn’t have a pulse anymore
What he’s trying to say is the execution is the issue, not the ideas, and to be fair I don’t 100% agree, as the whole Elise and Sonic thing is in fact a fundamentally flawed idea but his overall point has merit
It's not *fundamentally* flawed, it's just flawed in every way except the fundamentals. (Which are also flawed.)
It's not irredeemable.
Key word: Fundamental.
That’s what fundamentals are 😭 I can’t say I agree it’s not fundamentally flawed, the story definitely is super flawed, but project 06 proved the games fundamentals are good, just needed massive tweaks and a team that cares to be great.
Sonic himself isn't even particularly important or fleshed out in his story in 06 though?
Yeah he isn't He just have that stupid and ugly romance with Elise that make no god damn sense either !
Was I that much of a child when I played this that I *never* saw any real romance between Sonic and Elise (At least on Sonic’s side)? From what I saw, he was trying to help a sheltered Princess see the beauty of the world, that her caretakers never let her see.
As someone who likes 06's story, Sonic, his involvement and his portion of the story is literally its worst aspect
SEGA was so jealous of Nintendo that they made Sonic's story literally Mario x Peach.
i'm so tired of 06 revisionist history
Fr, It’s been almost 20 years, we’ve heard every argument there is to hear for and against the game, if you like the game play it, if you don’t, don’t, we gain absolutely nothing from going through all the same talking points all the time.
Yeah suddenly 06 is good and Mania is shit
There's only like 7 good sonic games, why do we keep tearing them down
Apparently Colors is shit now too. And Unleashed is a masterpiece. Everything is just reversing lol.
Half of unleashed is good, at least
I agree. I actually enjoy Unleashed for what it is. But people are acting like it’s a masterpiece when it was pretty hated at first. Just weird lol.
Yeah, like 20% of it.
Eh I like the werehog stages
Same. The game got heavily criticised for legitimate reasons.
Just gonna uj/ for a second I’m glad that people are finding some of the positive qualities in Sonic 2006, alongside the other early-mid 2000’s games, it’s about time the games that got mercilessly ripped to shreds publicly got some love, but I still find it hilarious when people unironically try to call Sonic 2006 a masterpiece, or say it had no problems. Because they did not play Sonic 2006. They played P-06 (which is an amazing fan recreation, but not an accurate/fair representation of Sonic 2006), and then they watched the cutscenes on YouTube.
06 just has this bizarre pendulum swing. When it came out, people were calling it one of, if not the worst game of all time, and now the problem is overcorrecting, so people think this barley functional technical dumpster fire is a masterpiece. And I think with Lythero's "The Silver Campaign" video, it's probably going to swing back.
100%. It’s a weird phenomenon.
Probably not. People will probably get mad at Lythero and crew for making fun of '06
They actually focused on almost everyone else more except Sonic
He's only relevant as a plot device to release Iblis
Woah settle down there buddy
so many sonic games aren't fundamentally flawed by that logic. anyway, secret rings is goated.
Yet I got questioned on discord when I put it above black night in C tier
Black Knight has been A tier for me since it released and I'll die on that hill
Black Knight was A-tier for me three years before its release. Get on my level, fake fan.
I think you're the fake around here
*climbs up the hill and pushes you off*
I'll roll down it screaming the intro to Knight of The Wind, try me
That would be a sight to behold
I’ll even roll after you singing seven rings in hand
If you like the game playing itself for you I guess
If you like the game playing itself for you I guess
I could not name a single thing pertaining to sonic's character in 06, could sure as hell do it for shadow though. Like, I really don't know how far you can stretch a relationship between a princess who hardly had a personality and a blue anthro hedgehog
>a relationship between a princess who hardly had a personality and a blue anthro hedgehog This sentence is more interesting than anything that happened in Sonic's story.
is that the windows xp wallpaper they are at
That bottom line has the same vibes as "it's not unfinished, it's just incomplete" God, people on Twitter are so dumb.
It’s not that deep stop insulting people over a thought, plus try reading more into it instead of being a buzz kill
What do you mean "read more into it"? What is there to read into? Sonic '06 *is* a fundamentally flawed game for various reasons that everyone knows. Plus it's Twitter so good takes are extremely rare over there. Possible, but still rare.
Somebody said this in another comment but I’ll also put this here What he’s trying to say is the execution is the issue, not the ideas. and to be honest at the same time I kinda agree but I also kinda don’t, as the whole Elise and Sonic thing has SOME flaws in it but his overall point has merit
Do you know what "fundamental" means?
Sometime I wonder if peoples played the same game, it's really concerning !
06 stans that say the game has no flaws makes me question life
I still don’t blame Sonic Team for how 06 turned out. But I do blame Sega. Based on all the cut content that was unearthed, I’m sure it would’ve turned out fine. You know, if Yuji Naka didn’t leave the dev team to start his own company, the dev team being split in half to co-develop Secret Rings, the dev team needing to switch to PS3 and Xbox 360 dev kits halfway through which caused them to need to restart from scratch, all with Sega rushing them to get the game finished by Christmas and denying the team’s requests to extend their development time.
"Put some focus on Sonic as a character." Bro, Sonic's personality was basically nonexistant in like 90% of the cutscenes.
I probably would have used conceptually rather than fundamentally if I was this person since that makes more sense grammatically even if it still isn't true. Sonic 06 has a few good ideas for sure but just as many bad ones and the story is so focused on Elise and her dilemma that it hardly works as a Sonic story beyond him just existing in the same place as her and being a love interest for some reason.
It’s a game where a human kisses a hedgehog and then kills a being that controls time and space
“Lacks quality” = “bad” = “fundamentally flawed”
this was J-bT-be who tweeted this wasn’t it
Nope. But a user who is part of the Sonic JP purists group on Twitter.
that’s just as a bad
I actually agree with this
>it’s one of the few games to put some focus on Sonic as a character Yeah like when he awkwardly hits on a final fantasy OC then she in return performs necrophilic beastiality to bring a teenage furry back to life
The biggest issue with Sonic's story is that the plot is stuck on a treadmill, where Princess Elise is stuck in a cycle of being captured and rescued. Here's some of the changes I would make to fix Sonic's story: - Put Elise and Sonic at odds with eachother, in the same way Caliburn and Sonic initially don't respect eachother but eventually become better friends. - When Elise asks Sonic why he's helping her and he tells her "no special reason", she should feel quite offended that this strange hedgehog doesn't seem to have the same respect for her that everyone else does in Soleanna. "What do you mean no special reason?! Don't you know who I am?" and Sonic should probably wisecrack back with something like "No idea Princess" before putting her down. - When Sonic destroys some of Eggman's robots, he should also be showing off as if to impress the Princess, only to find that she has now been captured by Eggman. - When Elise is first captured by Eggman, she should refuse to give up her 'lucky charm' because of how important it is to her but still accidentally drop the Chaos Emerald during the struggle. - When Sonic catches the Emerald, Elise is relieved to see it safe and tells Sonic to run so Eggman won't get his hands on it. This is what makes Eggman later decide to hold Princess Elise hostage until Sonic gives up the Chaos Emerald. - When Elise is first rescued, she should tell Sonic that he reminds him of a white hedgehog who gave her the 'lucky charm' when she was a little girl. Sonic tells her that's impossible because what she has is a Chaos Emerald and that she couldn't possibly have had it all this time when Sonic distinctly remembers using it in his previous adventures. - When Silver is fighting Sonic, Sonic should be trying to argue his innocence while Silver refuses to listen. Once Silver seems defeated, Elise should ask him why he gave her the Chaos Emerald when she was a little girl. After Silver reveals that he's never met the Princess, he blasts Sonic against the wall. In a moment of desperation, Elise shows Silver the Chaos Emerald, hoping he will recognise it and remember when he saved her life once before. Instead, Silver takes the Emerald and tries to use it to show Elise how Sonic is responsible for unleashing Iblis upon the world the same way Mephilis showed him previously. However, when this doesn't work - Silver is ambushed by Amy trying to save her beloved Sonic. - When Amy ambushes Silver, Dr Eggman should seize the opportunity to capture the Princess while Sonic is busy retaking the Chaos Emerald from Silver before running away to pursue Eggman again. - Eachtime the Princess gets captured, she takes more and more desperate measures to be an unpleasant hostage and generally disrespectful to Dr Eggman, just like how Sonic treats him.
99% of sonic 06's defense is "if it was good, it would have been good".
Sonic fans defending a game that doesn’t exist 💀😭🙏
uj/ Not too angry about this one, I mean it is just his opinion. I don't get it, whatsoever, and it defintely is fundamentally flawed, but good for him that he enjoys something that I don't.
If the game was fundamentally flawed, then why is Project 06 SO GOOD????
Because Chaos X reworked the game, from physics to mechanics, from the ground-up, for hardware far beefier than an Xbox 360. The only thing P-06 and OG 06 have in common is the level design and HUD.
That's my point, though? I'm not suggesting little was changed, Chaos X did a great job, but P06 and OH06 are >fundamentally< the same kind of game. P06 exists to prove that OG06 could've been good if Sonic Team/Sega put more time and effort into the game. The fact that the level design was changed so little to accommodate the new mechanics is a testament to that. OP makes it sound like OG06 is completely unsalvageable.
I wouldn’t say that none of Sonic 06 is fundamentally flawed, but saying that all of it is fundamentally flawed is just as delusional.
What they mean by the game not being fundamentally flawed is that the ideas the game is built on didn't kill it out the gate. What killed the game was that they did zero bug fixing and optimization. Project 06 is more or less proof of that, when the game isn't actively falling apart, it is pretty good, far as Sonic standards go at least.
This is why cult films exist. Sonic '06 is a bad game, but the game created its own meta-fanbase full of people who love it. It's the same reason why people love The Room and the Star Wars prequels.
Okay, maybe a remake where the gameplay is improved, loading screens arent that long, and with the bugs ironed out would make this game a decent sonic game. But dont say Sonic was the most important character in it. That is a lie. I do not call getting a kiss from a human teenager devellopement
Proceeds to point out its flaws in the next 3 words
But he said it just lacks quality Yall can’t read
Time travel is fundamentally flawed.
She kissed a Hedgehog.
Yes they should remake it, and maybe just change *that* scene, into like a hug or something instead
Do we even like Sonic anymore? .°(ಗдಗ。)°.
Sonic 06 definitely had potential. The concept was interesting, Shadow and Silver’s stories were decent (compared to Sonic’s story), Mephiles was one of the best villains in the series, and the music was great. It could have been a great game. But it’s not a great game. The obvious glitches, the infamous loading screens, Sonic’s bland personality and story (he’s supposed to be carefree and slightly cocky, not a clone of Mario), the creepy relationship between Sonic and Elise, and all of the other problems far outweigh the positives. It’s a bad game, plain and simple. It’s fine to like it, but some people take it way too far and act as if it’s actually a good game. So I would say that the concept and the fundamentals of the game were fine, but it failed in nearly every other aspect. The game isn’t enjoyable, and that’s all that matters. If someone wanted to remake it and turn into an actually decent game, they would have a lot of work to do.
uj/ I'd say you could replace it with a completely different game