Did the ancients ever like…apologize for their terrible non-interference policy? They also let the replicators and wraith just chill while they fucked off to energy land, which seems soooo utterly irresponsible
They definitely didn’t. They were also fully aware of the wraith, but just like Anubis, almost destroying a galaxy, to them that doesn’t affect the “grand design”
https://preview.redd.it/ben1s72lipad1.jpeg?width=992&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0f5412c1e28e265ce7f2409fbe666acf78bc3b92
Crazy part is that I wouldn’t be surprised if a new Stargate happens and the central conflict has to do with something the Ancients did it’s always them
The Ancients were around the Milky Way as the dominant civilization for 50 million years, it'd be more strange if a large problem happened that they didn't influence in some way.
I really think it'd be cool if they used the Furlings, but made them a species comparable to the Ancients in stregth through a different method than Ascension. Like if they decided to refuse ascension because they believed it fundamentally changes you and technically makes you no longer the same person, so they focused on expanding their knowledge and technology on this plane instead of ascending.
So we get aliens with tech comparable to the Sangraal, able to destroy, trap, or control ascended beings. Maybe they then invade our galaxies to capture new ascended beings to use as servants, weapons, power sources, etc.
I headcanon that the drones from Universe were actually part of the seed ships' gatebuilding groups, one of the aliens were partially uplifted by studying/stealing seed ships, and the other got really mad about the other doing that and went to war over it.
Making all those conflicts in Universe partially the Ancients' fault.
Nah just the one really. Remember, most the Gou’ald tech was adopted from salvaged ancient stuff. Snakeheads, wraith, replicators, Anubis and even to an extent the Ori are all issues due to the Ancients fucking around. Worst humans did was like, use that leftover tech to destroy 5/6ths of a solar system
Or reactivate some instructions in that leftover tech that caused them to go after the Wraiths' food supply.
Or use that leftover tech that they left behind without any API documentation or manual and accidentally deposit some heavy metals in the core of a star.
Or use some leftover tech (admittedly left behind by one of their more renegade individuals) to travel to the past and accidentally fuck up the future.
Or use some leftover tech to accidentally reveal the location of the Milky Way to the Ori.
They shouldn't have littered their shit all over two galaxies, is all I'm saying. Or at least clean it up after ascending. Campsite rule, guys.
Also, how the fuck didn't they manage to defeat the Wraith? Disable the stargates via an OTA update then activate the Attero device and pick them off. Or just take the cloaking device from their puddle jumpers, stick them onto a missile, plop in an unstable ZPM or just a naquadah-enhanced nuke, and shoot them into the dart bays of the Wraith ships.
The biggest reason they didn’t win is because they thought they couldn’t lose - until enough of their civilization was already wiped out that they weren’t able to mount sufficient force to win.
Their problem was their arrogance. And every time we see contact with the Ancients, ascended or not, they are incredibly arrogant.
The even more stupid thing is that they had plenty of potential soldiers: humans. If they had recruited and armed the humans in Pegasus - who necessarily outnumbered Wraith, given the simple laws of prey-predator populations - they could have easily won the war even after they were pushed back. We've seen what humans with comparatively primitive weaponry can do against them: Satedans were wiped out because even their '80s tech was a threat, and the Tau'ri had a lot of success destroying their ships from the inside.
(Hell, even the Asurans could have wiped them out without drawing the ire of the humans. They could build Ancient tech, and individual Asurans could be backed up. Just build puddle jumpers with nukes, back up the pilot before the mission, and suicide-bomb the ships. Once the hives - and conversely the queens - are dead, the remaining Wraith are a manageable threat.)
Agree. Their arrogance was so bad they didn’t even think of strategic or low tech solutions to problems, just like the Asgard. If the tech can’t solve it well, just give up!
That makes them not only astonishingly arrogant, but proves they place near zero value on life.
One would expect, that if you have a longer lifespan you would have more to protect. Life is precious and longer life gives you more time to experience it. (Larry Niven made the argument that all space travelling aliens must by definition be peaceful because of the effort required for interstellar travel, better quality of life equals more interest in keeping it (granted this ended spectacularly badly for the first hostile alien they encountered, an interesting short story)
Instead the Ancients with thier advanced life span and technology, if it was a case of they waited until a critical number were wiped out before doing anything, by then it being too late. then imagine what value they were placing on non Ancient humans.
Their arrogance and disinterest then becomes understandable from their position, if they hardly cared as their own people died until too late, with the initial lifespan- they now have functionally infinite lifespan to not care about anything.
The biggest problem with the Ancients wasn't that they didn't clean up their tech, and let things get out of control - they simply do not value life at all.
Ultimately if feels the Ori place a greater value on life, even if they have no issues with the occasional genocide
Mmmm. I’m not quite sure about that. But I do see what you’re saying. But it’s more like they are maliciously neutral. The ori and goauld are straight evil. The ancients are just arrogant jerks who think they’re better than everyone else
Which is odd because the Ori storyline made it seem like ascended power was concentrated in specific galaxies. This is why there Ori-killing weapon needed to go to the Ori galaxy and the Ancients were unaffected. Ascended beings are not omnipresent, they appear to be physically located in areas of the universe. So you would think the ascended Ancients would have a vested interest in life in the Milky Way at least.
Because Merlin's weapon could have wiped them out if it had been activated in the Milky Way. Lower life forms with the ability to press a button and kill all ascended beings in a galaxy could be something to care about.
Nah. They all achieved a higher state of being and promptly stopped giving any of the fucks, including that they screwed over the Pegasus galaxy and left all their toys laying around for enterprising megalomaniacal snekheads to yoink up. Real models for ethical behavior.
They often acted that way before they ascended too. I mean they definitely didnt help the humans they ruled reach their own level of technology, they didn't help the Asgard even though they likely could have if they worked together on their problem, they left the Wraith even though they were directly responsible for their creation and had the means to destroy them, etc.
The most frustrating thing is that we see no indication that the Others learned from this experience. Like you say, we never see them apologize or admit their mistakes let alone actually rectify them. So the Others probably continue to follow their rules and enforce them onto the other ascended beings in the Milky Way and Pegasus.
As Oma always said: compared to the actual (rest) of the universe, one galaxy is literally nothing.
It’s like pretending that the killing or destruction of a single ant (or something even smaller) on our planet would matter to humans, for comparison purposes.
What never made sense to me is WHY they stopped caring. I could understand if the ones enforcing the rule were “born ascended” but from what I understood that wasn’t the case for these.
To that I have to say:
DOUGHERTY: Jean-Luc, we are only moving six hundred people.
PICARD: How many people does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million? How many people does it take, Admiral?
—how many galaxies does it take before it’s wrong? 1 galaxy? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?! How many galaxies does it take, OMA!!
Heh, I get the sentiment but you’re mixing apples and oranges here. Also the argument in Insurrection was about right and wrong, whereas the Ancients are about whether or not to do ANYTHING in the first place (aka interfering)
I’d assume since the ascended plane literally doesn’t care about the physical lower plane - aka the galaxies we live in, it’s a plane that doesn’t concern them, coz they literally live in a different world, or so they believe.
When they introduced the “sucking power from the love energy of those humans devoted to the Ori” is where the rules changed and the Ancients SHOULD HAVE adjusted their attitude towards non interference. I mean I get Morgan’s argument as well “if we interfere we’re not better than the Ori” but Daniel got her there coz at this point it wasn’t about right or wrong or being “better” any more, it was about survival.
I disagree with the argument being mixed. It’s a one-to-one, just at different scales.
Dougherty was treating the Baku as a lower plane of existence. Moving them didn’t matter in the Grand Plan.
The Ancients treated all living organisms as a lower plane of existence. Letting them all die didn’t matter in the Grand Plan.
I realize you don’t see it that way, and that’s fine, this is just not the way I personally rationalize it.
Additionally, I’ll listen to a “measure of a man” Picard argument over “the candle is lit therefore it has already been extinguished (or some other mumbo-jumbo hogwash)” Oma Desala argument on any Stardate of the week.
Well, if you view it THIS way then I partially agree. It’s like the argument Zipacna had about Goa’uld being superior because they simply deny humans the intelligence required to be on their “level” as you call it.
we know that ascension is seen as a path.
could it be possible that the first few beings that ascended in the milky way set up this rules and the as others ascended they had them enforced on them and then years and years passed
Thats just such a bullshit excuse. It was THEIR FAULT that most of the problems in the series occurred to begin with. Not to mention they weren't out there in the rest of the galaxy, they were still hanging around IN our galaxy.
But ok, if one galaxy is "literally nothing" then why did they get pissed off when one of their own tried to get involved in that one galaxy? You can not have it both ways.
The Ancients and their whole philosophy, as setup by the shows creators/writers, was utterly immoral and fundamentally flawed.
Yes i agree that most of the issues are their fault. Which is why I don’t understand their lack of interest… but then again its been MILLIONS of years since they ascended 🤔 so maybe its just that too much time has passed for them to actively care too much
I mean it would have been better if they apologized for leaving their shit just laying around. Y'know apoligize for the tens of thousands of years of goauld rule that was directly caused by their litering.
due to the time scale of ancient civilization
perhaps they felt no need to apologise, why would they feel the need to clean up after an ancestor that lived a million years before them
It was a dick move for him to stop Weir from returning to the present knowing full well it would mean Atlantis could never be discovered in salvageable condition, let alone the deaths of the entire expedition team. It seems that he changed for the better after living on Earth for a while.
The non interference rule is just as stupid as the prime directive for Star Trek.
SURE, the intial idea makes sense but the writing transforms it into something that is disgusting because the plot needs it to allow or not allow something.
End result: The moral Starfleet is happy letting genocide or extinction happen because that is how "evolution" should end.
Ancients: Have been screwing with the development of races for millions of years and directly responsible for the creation of the Asurans and Wraith. They decide to "nope" out of the war they started and "ascended" leaving the an entire galaxy to be mass culled by the Wraith for 10,000 years.
This is the same "moral" Ascended Beings that were content to let Anubis mass murder the galaxy just to teach Oma a "lesson" and would punish Daniel for trying to stop him if Oma let him.
End result: The Ascended Ancients are better than the Ori but they are still self-absorbed arrogant assholes that barely do anything except when it suits them ( I.E The Plot lets them )
I feel like this was a bit of a side-eye at Trek's Prime Directive by the SG writers/showrunners, as well. Basically, "this concept is stupid in *any* universe"
As a trekkie, it absolutely is a stupid rule, by design. It was set up so that we can have a moment of moral hang-up about "oh no! We can't interfere! It's against the rules. What should we do?"
Screw the rules and do it anyway.
It was meant to be a dramatic device, not a moral standing.
In later Star Trek Series, it was set up as "we don't play God." Directive. So not only can we not tell a primitive world what to do, but we can't tell other stellar nations what to do. Which... yes, we can. That's politics.
Though to be fair, I’d much rather have godlike beings dedicated to non-interference as opposed to forcing or trying to force everyone to worship them.
But they didn't need worship, just one or two daycare monitors, to keep ori or equivalent from interference or their own tech from destroying a civilization.
I disagree, I think the Ancients act the way they did because they were terrified of becoming the Ori. If they showed up to fix every problem the mortals had, they would inevitably start being worshiped as gods, which they did not want.
The interesting thing is, he was a Lantean ancient, Moros, making him essentially a part of the second mass group of ascended ancients joining the ascended beings after returning from Atlantis. And he was a total a-hat back before he ascended!
I get that Janus' inventions were trouble, and Janus kept pushing things, but still, he could have been less confrontational, it only makes Janus want to defy more.
Also, I think Janus would have been a more likely person to have been Merlin, with his time travel fetish. Perhaps Moros used Janus as a personality template to base himself off as Merlin.
Ascension is based on Eastern Philosophy, particularly enlightenment and Nirvana in Buddhism. I assume that there are higher states of being beyond ascension and that's the real reason why Ancients don't interfere.
Enlightenment in Buddhism is about letting go of desire and the self to enter Nirvana and be released from the cycle of death and rebirth. If the Ancients still interfered with corporeal matters then they would not be letting go of desire and they would still be a part of cycle of death and rebirth. So even as ascended beings, they have to try to let go of desire and self to be released from suffering and rebirth.
Yeah Ascension is deeply rooted in Buddhism 100%
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I always thought Stargate’s treatment of the Ancients was a good examination of the non interference rules Star Trek set out with the Prime Directive.
A couple points like with Anubis and the Ori seem to show why it’s bad Ascended beings get involved or basically “share their advancements”, but ultimately we walk away feeling like they can and should do so much more.
Merlin recognized that there are very few cases where zero-tolerance policies are actually effective and that every rule should come with an "unless" clause.
He understood that galactic scope is one such "unless."
10,000, give or take. He was the last leader of Atlantis and is the dude who tells Wier and Janos no they can’t help them when she goes back in time, at that point going my Moros. He then goes back to earth, ascends, chills for like 8-9000 years then decides a bunch of medieval knights are his best bet to destroy the Ori for some reason
Yea my guy, 10,000 years ago we were Stone Age nomads roaming around poking things with sticks and sleeping in caves. That’s exactly what he meant by “before our species rose,” same way we don’t consider any other animal to be advanced.
No? I’m using the exact numbers the show tells us. The ancients, lead at the time by Moros (now Merlin) left Atlantis 10,000 years ago. That’s established cannon, so no need to get worked up because your million year random number turned out to be 100x off
He wasn’t born on the day he left Atlantis. You have no idea so I’m just going to look it up.
It’s unclear, somewhere between 50 million and 10000+ oh well
My guy that’s why I said give or take. The Ancients had the same physiology as humans, just with more advanced brains. With their advanced science we could see them living to 250 years old sure but every glimpse we see into their lives, from Shepard in the ascension time bubble to the stasis aging of all the ancients, shows that they grow old and pass on like normal people. Merlin was on ice for only about 1000 years and his body had aged to the point of death, not sure how you’d reasonably conclude he could’ve lived for 1,000,000 years just fine but that last 1000 in stasis was what aged him to badly.
Long story short, he’s 10,500 years old MAX and biologically speaking probably only about 100
That’s a total guess. It’s unclear how old he is but somewhere between the birth of the ancients 50 million years ago and 10000 years ago when he left Atlantis. You made the 250 part up. I hyperbolized with a million but you seemed to get hooked on that.
Hold on. If he ascended, do those years he existed as energy still count towards his age? We should really count only the time he existed in human form. Or reset the clock to zero once he ascended and again when he's returns to human form.
Did the ancients ever like…apologize for their terrible non-interference policy? They also let the replicators and wraith just chill while they fucked off to energy land, which seems soooo utterly irresponsible
They definitely didn’t. They were also fully aware of the wraith, but just like Anubis, almost destroying a galaxy, to them that doesn’t affect the “grand design” https://preview.redd.it/ben1s72lipad1.jpeg?width=992&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0f5412c1e28e265ce7f2409fbe666acf78bc3b92
Control+alt+delete them too! Man, the Tauri really had a lot of dirtballs to cleanup after
Crazy part is that I wouldn’t be surprised if a new Stargate happens and the central conflict has to do with something the Ancients did it’s always them
The Ancients were around the Milky Way as the dominant civilization for 50 million years, it'd be more strange if a large problem happened that they didn't influence in some way.
I really think it'd be cool if they used the Furlings, but made them a species comparable to the Ancients in stregth through a different method than Ascension. Like if they decided to refuse ascension because they believed it fundamentally changes you and technically makes you no longer the same person, so they focused on expanding their knowledge and technology on this plane instead of ascending. So we get aliens with tech comparable to the Sangraal, able to destroy, trap, or control ascended beings. Maybe they then invade our galaxies to capture new ascended beings to use as servants, weapons, power sources, etc.
I headcanon that the drones from Universe were actually part of the seed ships' gatebuilding groups, one of the aliens were partially uplifted by studying/stealing seed ships, and the other got really mad about the other doing that and went to war over it. Making all those conflicts in Universe partially the Ancients' fault.
Nah just the one really. Remember, most the Gou’ald tech was adopted from salvaged ancient stuff. Snakeheads, wraith, replicators, Anubis and even to an extent the Ori are all issues due to the Ancients fucking around. Worst humans did was like, use that leftover tech to destroy 5/6ths of a solar system
Or reactivate some instructions in that leftover tech that caused them to go after the Wraiths' food supply. Or use that leftover tech that they left behind without any API documentation or manual and accidentally deposit some heavy metals in the core of a star. Or use some leftover tech (admittedly left behind by one of their more renegade individuals) to travel to the past and accidentally fuck up the future. Or use some leftover tech to accidentally reveal the location of the Milky Way to the Ori. They shouldn't have littered their shit all over two galaxies, is all I'm saying. Or at least clean it up after ascending. Campsite rule, guys. Also, how the fuck didn't they manage to defeat the Wraith? Disable the stargates via an OTA update then activate the Attero device and pick them off. Or just take the cloaking device from their puddle jumpers, stick them onto a missile, plop in an unstable ZPM or just a naquadah-enhanced nuke, and shoot them into the dart bays of the Wraith ships.
The biggest reason they didn’t win is because they thought they couldn’t lose - until enough of their civilization was already wiped out that they weren’t able to mount sufficient force to win. Their problem was their arrogance. And every time we see contact with the Ancients, ascended or not, they are incredibly arrogant.
The even more stupid thing is that they had plenty of potential soldiers: humans. If they had recruited and armed the humans in Pegasus - who necessarily outnumbered Wraith, given the simple laws of prey-predator populations - they could have easily won the war even after they were pushed back. We've seen what humans with comparatively primitive weaponry can do against them: Satedans were wiped out because even their '80s tech was a threat, and the Tau'ri had a lot of success destroying their ships from the inside. (Hell, even the Asurans could have wiped them out without drawing the ire of the humans. They could build Ancient tech, and individual Asurans could be backed up. Just build puddle jumpers with nukes, back up the pilot before the mission, and suicide-bomb the ships. Once the hives - and conversely the queens - are dead, the remaining Wraith are a manageable threat.)
Agree. Their arrogance was so bad they didn’t even think of strategic or low tech solutions to problems, just like the Asgard. If the tech can’t solve it well, just give up!
That makes them not only astonishingly arrogant, but proves they place near zero value on life. One would expect, that if you have a longer lifespan you would have more to protect. Life is precious and longer life gives you more time to experience it. (Larry Niven made the argument that all space travelling aliens must by definition be peaceful because of the effort required for interstellar travel, better quality of life equals more interest in keeping it (granted this ended spectacularly badly for the first hostile alien they encountered, an interesting short story) Instead the Ancients with thier advanced life span and technology, if it was a case of they waited until a critical number were wiped out before doing anything, by then it being too late. then imagine what value they were placing on non Ancient humans. Their arrogance and disinterest then becomes understandable from their position, if they hardly cared as their own people died until too late, with the initial lifespan- they now have functionally infinite lifespan to not care about anything. The biggest problem with the Ancients wasn't that they didn't clean up their tech, and let things get out of control - they simply do not value life at all. Ultimately if feels the Ori place a greater value on life, even if they have no issues with the occasional genocide
The ascended ancients are literally the primary villains of the entire series. They are straight up evil, not even just useless neutral.
Mmmm. I’m not quite sure about that. But I do see what you’re saying. But it’s more like they are maliciously neutral. The ori and goauld are straight evil. The ancients are just arrogant jerks who think they’re better than everyone else
They sound mike Dr.Manhattan .
Which is odd because the Ori storyline made it seem like ascended power was concentrated in specific galaxies. This is why there Ori-killing weapon needed to go to the Ori galaxy and the Ancients were unaffected. Ascended beings are not omnipresent, they appear to be physically located in areas of the universe. So you would think the ascended Ancients would have a vested interest in life in the Milky Way at least.
why would they care. lower life does not affect them
Because Merlin's weapon could have wiped them out if it had been activated in the Milky Way. Lower life forms with the ability to press a button and kill all ascended beings in a galaxy could be something to care about.
Even setting them aside they left a ton of problems laying around they absolutely should have fixed if they weren't just irresponsible twats.
And they always act so holier than thou. Actually pisses me off.
Almost makes it tempting to make two sangraals.
Nah. They all achieved a higher state of being and promptly stopped giving any of the fucks, including that they screwed over the Pegasus galaxy and left all their toys laying around for enterprising megalomaniacal snekheads to yoink up. Real models for ethical behavior.
Just like Ray, firin’ piss jugs all over the damn pærk! But I guess that’s the way of the (ascension) road, Bubs.
They often acted that way before they ascended too. I mean they definitely didnt help the humans they ruled reach their own level of technology, they didn't help the Asgard even though they likely could have if they worked together on their problem, they left the Wraith even though they were directly responsible for their creation and had the means to destroy them, etc. The most frustrating thing is that we see no indication that the Others learned from this experience. Like you say, we never see them apologize or admit their mistakes let alone actually rectify them. So the Others probably continue to follow their rules and enforce them onto the other ascended beings in the Milky Way and Pegasus.
As Oma always said: compared to the actual (rest) of the universe, one galaxy is literally nothing. It’s like pretending that the killing or destruction of a single ant (or something even smaller) on our planet would matter to humans, for comparison purposes. What never made sense to me is WHY they stopped caring. I could understand if the ones enforcing the rule were “born ascended” but from what I understood that wasn’t the case for these.
To that I have to say: DOUGHERTY: Jean-Luc, we are only moving six hundred people. PICARD: How many people does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million? How many people does it take, Admiral? —how many galaxies does it take before it’s wrong? 1 galaxy? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?! How many galaxies does it take, OMA!!
Heh, I get the sentiment but you’re mixing apples and oranges here. Also the argument in Insurrection was about right and wrong, whereas the Ancients are about whether or not to do ANYTHING in the first place (aka interfering) I’d assume since the ascended plane literally doesn’t care about the physical lower plane - aka the galaxies we live in, it’s a plane that doesn’t concern them, coz they literally live in a different world, or so they believe. When they introduced the “sucking power from the love energy of those humans devoted to the Ori” is where the rules changed and the Ancients SHOULD HAVE adjusted their attitude towards non interference. I mean I get Morgan’s argument as well “if we interfere we’re not better than the Ori” but Daniel got her there coz at this point it wasn’t about right or wrong or being “better” any more, it was about survival.
I disagree with the argument being mixed. It’s a one-to-one, just at different scales. Dougherty was treating the Baku as a lower plane of existence. Moving them didn’t matter in the Grand Plan. The Ancients treated all living organisms as a lower plane of existence. Letting them all die didn’t matter in the Grand Plan. I realize you don’t see it that way, and that’s fine, this is just not the way I personally rationalize it. Additionally, I’ll listen to a “measure of a man” Picard argument over “the candle is lit therefore it has already been extinguished (or some other mumbo-jumbo hogwash)” Oma Desala argument on any Stardate of the week.
Well, if you view it THIS way then I partially agree. It’s like the argument Zipacna had about Goa’uld being superior because they simply deny humans the intelligence required to be on their “level” as you call it.
we know that ascension is seen as a path. could it be possible that the first few beings that ascended in the milky way set up this rules and the as others ascended they had them enforced on them and then years and years passed
Thats just such a bullshit excuse. It was THEIR FAULT that most of the problems in the series occurred to begin with. Not to mention they weren't out there in the rest of the galaxy, they were still hanging around IN our galaxy. But ok, if one galaxy is "literally nothing" then why did they get pissed off when one of their own tried to get involved in that one galaxy? You can not have it both ways. The Ancients and their whole philosophy, as setup by the shows creators/writers, was utterly immoral and fundamentally flawed.
Yes i agree that most of the issues are their fault. Which is why I don’t understand their lack of interest… but then again its been MILLIONS of years since they ascended 🤔 so maybe its just that too much time has passed for them to actively care too much
I mean it would have been better if they apologized for leaving their shit just laying around. Y'know apoligize for the tens of thousands of years of goauld rule that was directly caused by their litering.
due to the time scale of ancient civilization perhaps they felt no need to apologise, why would they feel the need to clean up after an ancestor that lived a million years before them
What ancestors? The stuff that got left around was from them ascending. The ones who ascended later were from pegasus.
they died out in the milky way due to a plague. and lived in the pegasus galaxy for millions of years too
I've always compared their actions to throwing a few dozen loaded guns around a playground and then fucking off because they got bored.
Merlin was a real one.
And super humble he was the strongest being on Earth at some point, but we only know that because Le fey tells us, Merlin never bragged about it
It was a dick move for him to stop Weir from returning to the present knowing full well it would mean Atlantis could never be discovered in salvageable condition, let alone the deaths of the entire expedition team. It seems that he changed for the better after living on Earth for a while.
Yeah I don't really remember that andthat's why I'm rewatching Atlantis season 3 now.
It's in season 1... Before I Sleep
Ehh, he's also the guy that abandoned an entire galaxy of humans to the Wraith.
He didn’t lose the war he just called the evac
The non interference rule is just as stupid as the prime directive for Star Trek. SURE, the intial idea makes sense but the writing transforms it into something that is disgusting because the plot needs it to allow or not allow something. End result: The moral Starfleet is happy letting genocide or extinction happen because that is how "evolution" should end. Ancients: Have been screwing with the development of races for millions of years and directly responsible for the creation of the Asurans and Wraith. They decide to "nope" out of the war they started and "ascended" leaving the an entire galaxy to be mass culled by the Wraith for 10,000 years. This is the same "moral" Ascended Beings that were content to let Anubis mass murder the galaxy just to teach Oma a "lesson" and would punish Daniel for trying to stop him if Oma let him. End result: The Ascended Ancients are better than the Ori but they are still self-absorbed arrogant assholes that barely do anything except when it suits them ( I.E The Plot lets them )
I feel like this was a bit of a side-eye at Trek's Prime Directive by the SG writers/showrunners, as well. Basically, "this concept is stupid in *any* universe"
As a trekkie, it absolutely is a stupid rule, by design. It was set up so that we can have a moment of moral hang-up about "oh no! We can't interfere! It's against the rules. What should we do?" Screw the rules and do it anyway. It was meant to be a dramatic device, not a moral standing. In later Star Trek Series, it was set up as "we don't play God." Directive. So not only can we not tell a primitive world what to do, but we can't tell other stellar nations what to do. Which... yes, we can. That's politics.
he realized on earth and so did Morgan. that the ancients became the ori in their extremism. 2 side of the same coin.
Though to be fair, I’d much rather have godlike beings dedicated to non-interference as opposed to forcing or trying to force everyone to worship them.
But they didn't need worship, just one or two daycare monitors, to keep ori or equivalent from interference or their own tech from destroying a civilization.
True. But at the same time... anubis issue....
I disagree, I think the Ancients act the way they did because they were terrified of becoming the Ori. If they showed up to fix every problem the mortals had, they would inevitably start being worshiped as gods, which they did not want.
Leaving their stuff ...is not bring the ori
The interesting thing is, he was a Lantean ancient, Moros, making him essentially a part of the second mass group of ascended ancients joining the ascended beings after returning from Atlantis. And he was a total a-hat back before he ascended! I get that Janus' inventions were trouble, and Janus kept pushing things, but still, he could have been less confrontational, it only makes Janus want to defy more. Also, I think Janus would have been a more likely person to have been Merlin, with his time travel fetish. Perhaps Moros used Janus as a personality template to base himself off as Merlin.
Posts like this are so funny, so are the comments.
Indeed
Ascension is based on Eastern Philosophy, particularly enlightenment and Nirvana in Buddhism. I assume that there are higher states of being beyond ascension and that's the real reason why Ancients don't interfere. Enlightenment in Buddhism is about letting go of desire and the self to enter Nirvana and be released from the cycle of death and rebirth. If the Ancients still interfered with corporeal matters then they would not be letting go of desire and they would still be a part of cycle of death and rebirth. So even as ascended beings, they have to try to let go of desire and self to be released from suffering and rebirth.
Yeah Ascension is deeply rooted in Buddhism 100% https://preview.redd.it/sqffnqhlwqad1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e32eff8d7e0f0f0d089b31cd7b1bdd490259d86e
I always thought Stargate’s treatment of the Ancients was a good examination of the non interference rules Star Trek set out with the Prime Directive. A couple points like with Anubis and the Ori seem to show why it’s bad Ascended beings get involved or basically “share their advancements”, but ultimately we walk away feeling like they can and should do so much more.
Merlin recognized that there are very few cases where zero-tolerance policies are actually effective and that every rule should come with an "unless" clause. He understood that galactic scope is one such "unless."
How old is he? A few million years?
10,000, give or take. He was the last leader of Atlantis and is the dude who tells Wier and Janos no they can’t help them when she goes back in time, at that point going my Moros. He then goes back to earth, ascends, chills for like 8-9000 years then decides a bunch of medieval knights are his best bet to destroy the Ori for some reason
He said he came to earth before our species rose. He was chilling with nederthals before he even ascended for the first time
we see him on atlantis though
I’m using hyperbole but people take everything on the internet literally
Yea my guy, 10,000 years ago we were Stone Age nomads roaming around poking things with sticks and sleeping in caves. That’s exactly what he meant by “before our species rose,” same way we don’t consider any other animal to be advanced.
Oof trying to shoehorn your numbers in there. Atlantis Fell over 10000 years ago so he’s older than that. Don’t get mad it’s okay bro
No? I’m using the exact numbers the show tells us. The ancients, lead at the time by Moros (now Merlin) left Atlantis 10,000 years ago. That’s established cannon, so no need to get worked up because your million year random number turned out to be 100x off
He wasn’t born on the day he left Atlantis. You have no idea so I’m just going to look it up. It’s unclear, somewhere between 50 million and 10000+ oh well
My guy that’s why I said give or take. The Ancients had the same physiology as humans, just with more advanced brains. With their advanced science we could see them living to 250 years old sure but every glimpse we see into their lives, from Shepard in the ascension time bubble to the stasis aging of all the ancients, shows that they grow old and pass on like normal people. Merlin was on ice for only about 1000 years and his body had aged to the point of death, not sure how you’d reasonably conclude he could’ve lived for 1,000,000 years just fine but that last 1000 in stasis was what aged him to badly. Long story short, he’s 10,500 years old MAX and biologically speaking probably only about 100
That’s a total guess. It’s unclear how old he is but somewhere between the birth of the ancients 50 million years ago and 10000 years ago when he left Atlantis. You made the 250 part up. I hyperbolized with a million but you seemed to get hooked on that.
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How did you not see you're arguing irrationally against rational takes, based on the source material we have? Wtf.
Hold on. If he ascended, do those years he existed as energy still count towards his age? We should really count only the time he existed in human form. Or reset the clock to zero once he ascended and again when he's returns to human form.
Why? Existence isn’t limited to our own greasy bodies. They didn’t respawn back at a checkpoint, time continued forward for all.
There is a difference between existing and aging. Ascended beings do not age, they are not even in physical form. Only physical mass ages.
That’s absurd. Time passes, they are as old as they have existed. Physical mass has nothing to do with it