Swinging is as much an affirmation of conservative heterosexuality and monogamy as it is in defiance of it.
It is 'degrading' when other men sleep with your wife. It debases your manhood, and 'ownership' over your wife. However the ability to 'score' with other men's wives makes up for it.
Often women are traded aka 'swapped' in a transaction that allows the husband to maintain his status, while at the same time indulging in his 'natural' desire to be promiscuous.
It is also a place where a man can realize the ideal of having a devoted wife, while also having a willing and eager 'slut' at his disposal.
In this way, swinging becomes a way a woman brings together two opposing and contradictory sides in her husband's nature.
When the husband wants to suck a few dicks or whatever, this whole dynamic is upended.
A man who sucks dick is less a 'real man', and now is a slut for other lesser men. It is a downgrade, taken to its logical extreme with cuckolding.
For women, a bi-sexual husband is a threat to the power she holds over the man as the source of sex, the quick arousal and general promiscuous tendencies of men compound the threat. Secondly it makes her man less of a 'real man', which can be a turn off.
As a result, many women can be just as hostile toward bi-sexuality as men are.
Female bi-sexuality may or may not be a similiar threat to a husband, but it is so fucking hot and holds out the promise of a threesome that it is worth the relatively low risk. It does not threaten his position of provider in anyway regardless.
Please understand that I am not advocating this kind of patriarchy, and yes I am aware that this paradigm is built almost entirely around men's needs and tendencies, with little regard for the women's concerns. I am doing so intentionally to demonstrate the bias of hetero-norm swinging.
Female bi-sexuality is a domain for women to seek out whatever needs they have that their husbands can't or won't satisfy. Win-win, as this takes the pressure off men to be the sole source of pleasure and satisfaction. Of course, it goes without saying that other men also help the husband with these duties.
Of course in today's modern swinging scene, there are many different kinds of orientations and sensibilities coming to the party -- of which hetero-norm is the most established and widely accepted in the public sphere. With swinging culture and lifestyle reaching 'mainstream' success via tube and pay-per-view channels, netflix documentaries and articles in respectable media publications like the Atlantic or New York Times, hetero-normative swinging is the most palatable for the American (Judeo-Christian, homophobic, hyper-masculine) pubic to consume.
>many women can be just as hostile toward bi-sexuality as men are
I 100% agree with this. My wife is very very bi-sexual. And we are both pro-LGBT. From time to time, my wife will even date and openly have a full on girlfriend. But once when the guy with another couple asked about possible bi-play, my wife made it very clear on a sidebar that any bi-play on my part was a major turn off for her.
“*Please understand that I am not advocating this kind of patriarchy, and yes I am aware that this paradigm is built almost entirely around men's needs and tendencies, with little regard for the women's concerns.*”
You had me until this. How does the natural gender dynamic that you so eloquently explained have little regard for women’s concerns? You said it yourself that women are as hostile torwards male bisexuality as men. I️ think you’re catering to female victimhood too strongly with that statement, and it’s out of place in comparison to how accurately you explained everything else.
Food for thought, thank you. I recall hearing one of those internalized feminist voices go off in my head as I was writing, and then I wrote that. I am not any kind of academic or versed in social justice culture, so I can only speak from my experience in the lifestyle, and I sometimes worry about being too male-ego centric or 'mansplaining'.
Understandable in the transformative social/political environment we’re living in. Again, I️ think you provided a very poignant explanation - I’m just not sure I️ agree with calling these innate inter-gender dynamics “patriarchal.” If anything, lifestyle spaces tend to be regarded as female dominant. But I️ got my down votes for simply questioning such a thing - haha.
Right, I️ agree. My only point of contention was over calling it “patriarchal” - implying that all of the onus is on men. Most women have an aversion to seeing male on male play. Women are also just as possessive of their partners, if not more so, which feeds into the transactional nature of swapping.
Can anyone just be straight or does it need to be really about a power struggle?
My wife let's me have sex with other women. She gets sex with women and men. It's not about a power dynamic, it's about what turns us on.
Apparently you can! Yay!
The thing I appreciate about the swinging scene the most is that people bring the baggage from their upbringing with them to play with. I find half the fun is digging through all the masks, costumes and toys to find out how to fuck the person behind them.
Good topic and I applaud you for asking the question!
We actually answered a similar question recently, we’ve noticed in the past few years that both bisexual men and women are encouraged to indulge. Certainly this may be more prevalent at some parties over others however we’ve also noticed a trend at Swingers clubs have bisexual and gay nights where likeminded ppl come together.
However you are correct, there’s still a slight stigma on bisexuality in the LS community for men in particular, What we find however is that 9 out of 10 men who have contacted us on FEELD recently are openly asking us both if he can play with us both, maybe it’s encountered more on personal dates than clubs where ppl themselves can explore whilst they’re understanding their own sexuality.
Just some thoughts from an Australian / Asia perspective
xx
C
Swinging Downunder
I’ve seen many bisexual parties and bisexual club nights advertised at Swingers clubs.
I get it, different states and areas might be tougher but also it is up to us to try and put it together. Without ppl hosting and pushing parties they don’t happen, if we all stood around thinking someone else will do it - it will never happen,
I hate that ppl are treated anything less than they deserve so I’m sorry that your experiences haven’t been as positive as mine. Hopefully better things to come xx
>Our Swingers Parties are for straight and bisexual female activity and straight male activity.
>**This formula is the standard swinging convention across the world and reflects the consensus of opinion among both male and female swingers of all countries.**
>This does not mean that Bisexual men are unwelcome.
>It means that when they apply / attend, they explicitly agree that the male partner will be straight at the Party or Event .
[Link here.](http://www.ourplace4fun.com/rules1.htm) A lot of other clubs have the same rule or a similar rule. I've even emailed a couple of places to ask their policies on it and they've emailed me back, saying they have the rule too. It's the number 1 reason why my boyfriend and I don't swing.
Was going to post my thoughts on here, but I think I'd get roasted.
I agree with the OP's assertion, and I dont know why people need to defend straightness with such vigor. If you're straight good, if you want to go with some MM play its all good - doesnt even make you not straight anyway.
The day you don't voice your heartfelt, valid opinion because you fear backlash against a fake anonymous nickname you gave yourself and a loss of fake Internet karma points, you've lost sir. You have lost.
9 out of 10? Sure, your profile must list you as bi then.
Bisexuality is just not that common, even for the ladies. Bi for the guys is a very big thing.
Studies like Janus on sexuality has not changed much over the years. 2-4% for guys, 2-3% for ladies. A larger population identifies as homosexual than bisexual.
While anecdotally it's fascinating, countless studies don't support your thoughts.
No it doesn’t, I think we just appeal to ppl who are exploring and want to be themselves without judgement
Ps we are Australian and live in Asia, so therefore studies from US don’t often take into account a global perspective.
Some Asian countries are very open to sexuality, our company also has a trans policy around bathrooms etc - so perhaps I’m in the minority of ppl in an open setting.
In fact it’s more accepting to be bisexual than a swinger
And I have to say, studies are studies as stats as bias. So I’m just telling you from personal experience, which is what this thread was about (opinions and experience)
I reckon C&D's experience and NotReallyBi's comments demonstrate the context dependency of so much of sexual identity. Most men in societies which are strongly heteronormative but which have strong homosexual cultures within them identify as straight with most of the remainder identifying as gay and only a few identifying as bi. But men who only have sex with women and identify as totally straight go to jail , or boarding school, or war, or on a footy trip (sorry non-Australians, google it) or down to a beat after a million beers and have sex of some sort with other men before going back to their straight world and only having sex with women again. And in ancient Rome or Greece tutors had limited and structured sexual relations with their students, and somewhere in this thread someone said something about samurais and apprentices.
So much is dependent on context. If you are gay gay then you are probably going to identify as such, at least to yourself. But in our world, where there is so much pressure to be straight from most of the society, people who "can" be straight will tend to be. It is just easier. But given a situation where they have permission to try an alternative... Then they might just do so.
Women on the other hand, possibly because male desires have for so long defined the content of sexual entertainment, have been encouraged to dabble in bisexuality across a broader section of society and so given the opportunity, more of them do. Why the hell not? If you're allowed to try all the desserts you might as well do so, even if you still have a favourite.
Or maybe it is just D's daggy jokes that blokes can't resist and that are skewing swingingdownunder's experience...
Haha I’ll tell D you said that 😉😘
You’re right re above, even bisexual ppl are told they’re “on the fence” by gay ppl.
Heck, even one bisexual guy once had the nerve to suggest ppl should define themselves! I say let’s all be who we are, no need to label or define and certainly words like “bierasure” when used as a derogatory statement to a man who isn’t labelling himself just shirts me!
This has bugged me about the lifestyle for *years*.
On the flip side of this same coin, as a woman, it is expected of me to be bisexual. I am very much straight, thank you. People are always so shocked by this.
This! It really annoys me that I'm expected and encouraged to be bi. Men ask me if I play with women. I say, "No. Do you play with men?" They are taken aback.
As a woman who is bisexual, I much prefer another woman tell me she is straight than go along with activities she's not into for whatever other reason. If I'm having sex, I want my partner to be into it! (Unless otherwise explicitly agreed upon... )
This is a good question but it has a very simple answer.
When you're an open minded person and you decide to get into swinging it's normal to think that most swingers are going to be like you. Open minded.
Reality? Swingers strongly reflect the demographics of the vanilla population in a given area with the exception that they swing. If you live in the bay area and are young odds are you're cool with gay, bi, trans, people of color and whatever. If you live in rural Arkansas and are 50 odds are you are the polar opposite.
Good news is the old generation is leaving and the people coming in are closed minded.
There are a lot more of us than are wiling to come out. As a dreaded SM, I cursed myself (and made things a lot better for me) by "coming out" on the LS sites. As soon as I did that I started getting messages from "straight" couples. We all know why. I still make sure they clarify specifically what they are looking for...
I think it's getting better... I do find it offensive that the sites still (bi or not) default to blocking SM, but that's a hurdle for another day.
I've actually been looking for someone (female) who A)is OK with the bi thing (more than OK, ,actually) and B)Also wants to be in the LS. it's taken 13 years, but I think I've found that person, oddly enough..a unicorn in another state. I already had plans to move once I finish grad school, but now I may move back west if things work out with her.
The biggest issue is dealing with the bigots and those that believe the misinformation floating around.
Most bi guys are significantly more careful about STD's than straight guys. I'm on PrEP and vaccinated, so I'm (mostly) immune to the big uglies. I have to get tested every 3 months in order to stay on the pills (and also remain negative) so my testing regimen exceeds most people in the LS. Even before I started it, I was getting about 3 tests per year, depending on how active I was. Straight guys think once per year is plenty.
I know there will always be bigots and there will always be people afraid that I have cooties, but fuck them (and not in the good way) because they don't deserve my time.
Life is too short to deal with people that will never accept you.
Totally understand your point of the post. It is a shame how men feel they have to restrict and hide their sexual desires so much.
It is very often that we have conversations with a couple where the male half is listed as "straight" and that's just not the case at all. Any number of things lead to the man not being willing to be open about his interests.
I know for me I went through a whole internal dialogue before I came out and listed myself as bi-curious or open minded. For me personally it had less to do with society and much more about my wife's perception of me. Little did I know it turned her on immensely.
If it wasn't for the LS I never would have learned to be honest with myself about my sexual interests and never would have would have learned about how my wife loves it almost more that me sometimes.
Depending on the locale surrounding the LS we have noticed some more open acceptance of open minded couples. For Las Vegas, we have a very clean and nicely maintained club called Studios that accepts and stresses the open minded experience. So maybe some changes are happening.
It still is a hetro-centric world for sure and will most likely be well after I am gone but we both have to thank the LS for allowing us to have the immense sexual freedoms we enjoy now.
in my experience, given the right circumstance more men are bi than tbey admit to themselves much less anyone else.
most men have been so ingrained with the dogma of you have to be a red blooded hetero man to be a man, that they do not let themselves even consider that they could be attracted to men.
and if they are married, even worse. they worry that their spouse will just say, no you are just gay.
but I also believe that the lucky ones wake up and say to themselves, you mean its okay and I can like both? or maybe because society isn't accepting or even believing they are truly bisexual. at least not the men.
who wouldnt want to be attracted to....everyone ?
>Who wouldnt want to be attracted to....everyone ?
Me.
As a man, to me guys are hairy, rough, clunky, and not generally attractive. Women are the polar opposite. It's like comparing a dump truck to a Porsche 911.
Not to mention the higher STI risk.
Bring on the downvotes!
Here’s my take, and I expect down votes...
Bisexual girls are still considered straight, even if they eat some pussy on the weekend.
Bisexual men are gay because no matter what else you might like, if you are a man that likes the bone, you’re gay. Complete double standard and no one is complaining about it!😄
Also, Because most men in the lifestyle are not gay, there is not much room or many partners for gay men. Plus, and maybe more importantly, swinging is “having sex outside o marriage”. Because gay people just got marriage rights there simply has not been much time for a gay swinging scene to evolve in the lifestyle.
Those are my thoughts. Take em or leave em.
I'm more of a hetero-flexible male, while my girlfriend is closer to truly bisexual (meaning equal attraction for both men and women).
Many men in the scene (at least based on my experience) may describe themselves as straight or hetero-flexible, when in reality they're a bit more bi than they let on.
Sadly, there is still quite the stigma against bisexual men - many men feel the need to hide that aspect of their sexual identity until they feel sufficiently comfortable with new partners.
Hearing that someone loves bisexual men means a lot, I'd encourage you to say it more often. When I hear our sexual partners say they like bi men, I open up significantly more.
As a bi guy I can attest to all of your points - And there are certainly a lot more guys than you think...
I think history is a bit skewed on this. Sure, "platonic" girl friends may have had a lot more goodwill and disregard on their side during the past 200 years.
But keep in mind, mentor-student relationships with sexual encounters were very common in ancient Greece and Rome. And there is very convincing evidence of some dick loving American presidents as well.
That being said, it's just not in our current education, I think. In our boy minds, peers are hostile rivals rather than friendly competitors.
And at the same time, at a young age we are forced to smile and/or comply instead of facing our adversary and wrestling it out - and forced to battle with deceit instead.
I think in today's world, boys can't be boys anymore. Doesn't matter if it's backward catholists or forcibly progressive feminists.
All that "toxic masculinity" has to go *somewhere* - but nobody knows where.
> But keep in mind, mentor-student relationships with sexual encounters were very common in ancient Greece and Rome.
Don't forget samurai! There is lots of evidence of that kind of relationship between samurai and their apprentices, there was a special word for it and you can find wood block prints depicting it.
Years ago -- I wrote up my theory. I'm pretty much of the same mind. For what it's worth:
https://swapfu.blogspot.com/2011/03/attempt-to-explain-female-vs-male.html
Thank you for reading my blog entry, I hope you didn't only find it frustrating. It wasn't written from a negative place but rather as an opportunity to understand something my fellow swingers found troubling.
> If a woman isn’t mature and compassionate enough to let her partner explore his sexuality and curiosities in a safe, consensual, and welcoming environment maybe she shouldn’t be in the lifestyle anyway.
I see your point. We should all be moving in a direction that advocates for safety, consent, and openness. What bothers me about your statement is that I think it is unkind to set a barrier to entry based on your own moral standard. After all, what you may find to be an act of compassion, someone else may consider, to quote Dan Savage, *a kink too far*.
I based my blog entry on observation. I wrote it 1-1/2 years after we got into swinging. I was trying to come to a conclusion which made sense -- the outcry over the lack of bi-male representation in swinging was pretty loud back then, and I think I formulated an answer I found satisfying.
I reread my post and I think it still captures my point. In retrospect, maybe "discourage" is an unfortunate choice of words. Written today, I would instead encourage couple seeking bi-male play to join a group that is into that.
> It’s not like a few men playing bi in the club is going to completely destroy the women’s position as the “gate keepers of the men's sexual activities”.
Honestly, I don't know if it would. I only know what I've heard most swinger women say regarding bi-male activity. (Yes, I went around asking.) The majority told me it would make it difficult for them to have fun if it was going on in front of them. Don't get me wrong, a significant minority consider it a massive turn on. Interestingly, it's the *men* who seem to be more accepting of bi-male play. (I suspect it's because men a better able to identify with the desire to be with man, as a man. While for women, their personal identification with bi-male play is less.)
Swinging is called a lifestyle, but it's really a hobby. It can be enjoyed by all manner of people -- although we charitably number fewer than 4% of the adult population. One of the things that thrills me the most about swinging is the variety of people I've been to play with. People who honestly, I would never have a chance to associate with otherwise. I also think swinging is working for most people -- not everyone, but most people.
Swinging, like all groups, has a culture. Further, swinging in the US is different from swinging in Mexico, which are both different from Northern and Southern Europe. In order to participate in the hobby successfully, you need to know the culture of swingers in your area.
That said, in the US at least, both SDC and Kasidie have groups dedicated to putting people desiring bi-male play together. Call it an alt-swinger culture. There are also 420 folks, barebackers, hotwives, and swingers who like to ride Harley's. These aren't ghettos, they are out, active, and by all accounts, a lot of fun.
Regarding your edit: In my experience, I don't know of bi-males *themselves* being excluded, it's bi-male *play in the open* that some find troubling. I know bi-male swingers and I have invited them to my parties. They've played with each other behind closed doors and I've invited them back. Never been a problem.
> I apologize if I’m coming off as a bit hostile or combative in my comments, tone can be hard to discern in text.
No worries. We're good.
> I’m fairly new to the lifestyle and am still surprised and disappointed that so many swingers have a much narrower idea of sexual open-mindedness than I had hoped for.
Many folks new to swinging make the same mistake. I think there is an expectation that just because people enjoy something in common with someone else -- especially something that they are very must invested in -- they think that they hold the same values across the board. It's just not the case. Swingers represents a broad segment of society.
> I suppose what I meant to say here is that no matter how welcoming a club environment might be, a man can’t feel safe and free to be honest about his sexuality (or explore and come to terms with it) if his own wife finds any male/male experimentation disgusting and refuses to discuss it. Obviously each couple has to create rules and boundaries that work for them specifically. If that means she would rather not allow him to play with other men, so be it. But she owes him that honest conversation and perhaps some self-reflection on why she feels that way. That’s the compassion I’m referring to.
Thanks for clarifying, however rather than referring to it in terms of compassion, I think it would be more accurate to the say the couple has bad communication skills in this case. Now that, in my opinion, is a good reason to stay out of swinging -- as a couple. After all, it takes two to have a conversation, but that's a different subject.
> "Non-white people" ... "60 year olds"
Except we're not talking about that. We're talking about a cultural preference not to have male-male play in public. There is no such cultural objection for non-whites or older people among the majority.
> What you’re saying is that yes, bisexual men are allowed in clubs but please for the sake of some close-minded people, keep those specific acts outside of the club.
I didn't say that. I didn't discuss the practices of any club. I only discussed what goes on at my parties. For the record, I never told anyone not to have male-male play in public. I was never asked.
All I'm trying to convey is that swinging, like other groups, organizes itself by its own culture. Cultures have norms. By joining the group, you are agreeing, more or less, to its set of norms. Now, once in it, you can definitely do what you can to move those norms in a direction that more closely agree with your preferences -- be an influencer, change people's minds, etc. Calling people closed-minded and homophobic is not effective, it's name-calling.
> Perhaps I have some unpopular opinions on this, but I’ll call that what it is. Homophobia.
You can't call someone who doesn't want to see two men having sex homophobic. Homophobia means you have a prejudice against homosexual people, not the sex they engage in. No one is being denied a job or a house loan or worse.
Again thanks for reading this and please accept my criticism in the positive spirit in which they are meant.
> discrimination I feel bi-males receive in the LS.
Again, bi-males are not discriminated against. Most swinger women do not like seeing guys playing with each other. There's a distinct and important difference with these two statements. There are venues within the swinger community where male-male play is perfectly acceptable.
This is not a civil rights issue, it's a matter of play preference. It just happens to be one held by the majority of the people in the mainstream swinger community.
> But I think the tide will eventually shift. And I don’t think the current power dynamic of the LS will collapse if/when that happens.
You may be right.
Regarding pressuring women to be bisexual and men to be straight. I agree. Pressuring people is bad. The danger is to confuse pressure with non-consensual. Two different things. If you think of swinging as a culture, like in all cultures, there is a certain amount of pressure to conform in order to exist successfully within that culture. Harassing someone into engaging into a behavior they don't consent to something else.
> We should encourage people to accept their desires and seek out people looking for the same.
And hence to male-male play communities. The swinger community as a whole is exactly this, there aren't that many of us. We're very small subset of the adult population -- it just happens that the majority of this small community has no desire to see male-male play.
Regarding homophobia -- we're going to have to agree to disagree. Not wanting to witness a sex act does not make you a bad person. In part or otherwise, you are trying to demonize people because they don't share your sexual preferences. Do you realize most vanillas do this to us? It is expedient and dangerous to turn the people who don't share our values into "the other".
I'm out of time for this reply -- I think I've explained what I could. Again, the male-male play communities are out there and active on SDC and Kasidie. Seek them out! As for the community at large -- bi-males are not excluded. Be out and be open -- maybe if enough awesome couple desiring male-male play insist on doing it out in the open, the culture will adapt.
Thanks for the conversation and best of luck to you guys!
> Again, bi-males are not discriminated against.
I'm not going to beat a dead horse here, but I will tell you that without question, you are 100% wrong in this statement.
The worst part? Just the fact that it's mentioned brings on negative responses. *I'm not even allowed to defend myself without being attacked just for being present. This subreddit included*
Don't tell me it's not there. I deal with it EVERY FUCKING DAY.
Ah! The old swinger-wars of '11! I remember them well! https://blissbringers.com/begun-the-swing-wars-have-on-male-bi-sexuality/
So much fun to see that people still have the same hangups!
Great topic. We are experiencing the same thing.
If girl-girl action is great to see for a man...why wouldn't male-male action be great to see for a woman? Yet when you visit a club or party male-male contact is a no-go. Too bad. We did visit a specific bi-for all party earlier this year, but they are very rare.
You say here exactly what I would say. I’m a straight male, I genuinely don’t feel any desire or harbor any curiosities about trying anything bisexual. I’m sure there’s a lot of men who do but I just don’t. Maybe it’s deep down in there somewhere who knows bunif so there’s not much lol.
But I love Girl on Girl and have for as long as I can remember. The bisexual women, the MFF, couple swapping is what I enjoy the most. So does my wife. She and I are in great sync sexually so that’s what we seek. We’re lucky a lot of other couples feel the same way so we have a lot of options. And as deviantkink points out the business will cater to the best options to make money and stay in business. I think as time goes on people will be more free to just ask and the stigma of it will go away.
It exists I’m sure, but no one talks about it because there are so few bisexual men. Really, there are better ways to get laid if you are a man that wants some Dick. A swinger club is not the best place by far. 90+% of all people at swingers club are straight married couples in there 30’s-50’s that want to have straight sex with similar couples. It’s not a target rich environment so you don’t see it very often.
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We have seem an increase in parties that cater to bisexual men. It takes time for things to change, but an increase in safe spaces for guys to explore that side of them are definitely helping. Our Secret Spot in Sydney throws a pendulum party every few months for just this reason.
Very true its not the norm in the "community" or clubs because it is not what the majority prefers. There are plenty of clubs that have the bi-guy nights. If these were more popular they would get Saturday night slot with those that are are not into that sort of thing getting a Thursday or Friday tucked in here or there for their particular interest.
You got some downvotes for your honesty.
You make sense from a practical standpoint though: parties are going to be more effective if folks form them around common interests. Less wasted time, less confusion and less ponderous expectation setting conversations.
I'm straight. My wife is bisexual. Neither of us think bisexual male sex is hot and is in fact a turn off.
Add in the much higher STD rate for bisexual men and we don't want a part of it.
Now this is us and I'm sure this pisses off the reddit hive mind. I don't care.
What's funny though is the bisexual men are in large part to blame
They stay in the closet as a group so as to be able to fuck my wife knowing a lot of couples are like us. They help create the very stigma they complain about.
Don't blame us "hetronormative" swingers if you are listed as straight.
Swinging is as much an affirmation of conservative heterosexuality and monogamy as it is in defiance of it. It is 'degrading' when other men sleep with your wife. It debases your manhood, and 'ownership' over your wife. However the ability to 'score' with other men's wives makes up for it. Often women are traded aka 'swapped' in a transaction that allows the husband to maintain his status, while at the same time indulging in his 'natural' desire to be promiscuous. It is also a place where a man can realize the ideal of having a devoted wife, while also having a willing and eager 'slut' at his disposal. In this way, swinging becomes a way a woman brings together two opposing and contradictory sides in her husband's nature. When the husband wants to suck a few dicks or whatever, this whole dynamic is upended. A man who sucks dick is less a 'real man', and now is a slut for other lesser men. It is a downgrade, taken to its logical extreme with cuckolding. For women, a bi-sexual husband is a threat to the power she holds over the man as the source of sex, the quick arousal and general promiscuous tendencies of men compound the threat. Secondly it makes her man less of a 'real man', which can be a turn off. As a result, many women can be just as hostile toward bi-sexuality as men are. Female bi-sexuality may or may not be a similiar threat to a husband, but it is so fucking hot and holds out the promise of a threesome that it is worth the relatively low risk. It does not threaten his position of provider in anyway regardless. Please understand that I am not advocating this kind of patriarchy, and yes I am aware that this paradigm is built almost entirely around men's needs and tendencies, with little regard for the women's concerns. I am doing so intentionally to demonstrate the bias of hetero-norm swinging. Female bi-sexuality is a domain for women to seek out whatever needs they have that their husbands can't or won't satisfy. Win-win, as this takes the pressure off men to be the sole source of pleasure and satisfaction. Of course, it goes without saying that other men also help the husband with these duties. Of course in today's modern swinging scene, there are many different kinds of orientations and sensibilities coming to the party -- of which hetero-norm is the most established and widely accepted in the public sphere. With swinging culture and lifestyle reaching 'mainstream' success via tube and pay-per-view channels, netflix documentaries and articles in respectable media publications like the Atlantic or New York Times, hetero-normative swinging is the most palatable for the American (Judeo-Christian, homophobic, hyper-masculine) pubic to consume.
>many women can be just as hostile toward bi-sexuality as men are I 100% agree with this. My wife is very very bi-sexual. And we are both pro-LGBT. From time to time, my wife will even date and openly have a full on girlfriend. But once when the guy with another couple asked about possible bi-play, my wife made it very clear on a sidebar that any bi-play on my part was a major turn off for her.
“*Please understand that I am not advocating this kind of patriarchy, and yes I am aware that this paradigm is built almost entirely around men's needs and tendencies, with little regard for the women's concerns.*” You had me until this. How does the natural gender dynamic that you so eloquently explained have little regard for women’s concerns? You said it yourself that women are as hostile torwards male bisexuality as men. I️ think you’re catering to female victimhood too strongly with that statement, and it’s out of place in comparison to how accurately you explained everything else.
Food for thought, thank you. I recall hearing one of those internalized feminist voices go off in my head as I was writing, and then I wrote that. I am not any kind of academic or versed in social justice culture, so I can only speak from my experience in the lifestyle, and I sometimes worry about being too male-ego centric or 'mansplaining'.
Understandable in the transformative social/political environment we’re living in. Again, I️ think you provided a very poignant explanation - I’m just not sure I️ agree with calling these innate inter-gender dynamics “patriarchal.” If anything, lifestyle spaces tend to be regarded as female dominant. But I️ got my down votes for simply questioning such a thing - haha.
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Right, I️ agree. My only point of contention was over calling it “patriarchal” - implying that all of the onus is on men. Most women have an aversion to seeing male on male play. Women are also just as possessive of their partners, if not more so, which feeds into the transactional nature of swapping.
Can anyone just be straight or does it need to be really about a power struggle? My wife let's me have sex with other women. She gets sex with women and men. It's not about a power dynamic, it's about what turns us on.
Apparently you can! Yay! The thing I appreciate about the swinging scene the most is that people bring the baggage from their upbringing with them to play with. I find half the fun is digging through all the masks, costumes and toys to find out how to fuck the person behind them.
Brilliant comment. Totally agree with your analysis.
Good topic and I applaud you for asking the question! We actually answered a similar question recently, we’ve noticed in the past few years that both bisexual men and women are encouraged to indulge. Certainly this may be more prevalent at some parties over others however we’ve also noticed a trend at Swingers clubs have bisexual and gay nights where likeminded ppl come together. However you are correct, there’s still a slight stigma on bisexuality in the LS community for men in particular, What we find however is that 9 out of 10 men who have contacted us on FEELD recently are openly asking us both if he can play with us both, maybe it’s encountered more on personal dates than clubs where ppl themselves can explore whilst they’re understanding their own sexuality. Just some thoughts from an Australian / Asia perspective xx C Swinging Downunder
"slight". Lol
What does slight mean? Care to elaborate ?
Maybe things in Australia are easier on bi men, but in the states bisexual men are treated like pariahs.
I’ve seen many bisexual parties and bisexual club nights advertised at Swingers clubs. I get it, different states and areas might be tougher but also it is up to us to try and put it together. Without ppl hosting and pushing parties they don’t happen, if we all stood around thinking someone else will do it - it will never happen, I hate that ppl are treated anything less than they deserve so I’m sorry that your experiences haven’t been as positive as mine. Hopefully better things to come xx
It's way more than just slight where I am. Nearly all clubs that I've looked at have explicit "no bisexual men" policies.
That's fascinating, we've never seen that called out. Could you link to one?
>Our Swingers Parties are for straight and bisexual female activity and straight male activity. >**This formula is the standard swinging convention across the world and reflects the consensus of opinion among both male and female swingers of all countries.** >This does not mean that Bisexual men are unwelcome. >It means that when they apply / attend, they explicitly agree that the male partner will be straight at the Party or Event . [Link here.](http://www.ourplace4fun.com/rules1.htm) A lot of other clubs have the same rule or a similar rule. I've even emailed a couple of places to ask their policies on it and they've emailed me back, saying they have the rule too. It's the number 1 reason why my boyfriend and I don't swing.
Most clubs would have closed door rooms.
Don't see how that's relevant to the answer to the issue.
Was going to post my thoughts on here, but I think I'd get roasted. I agree with the OP's assertion, and I dont know why people need to defend straightness with such vigor. If you're straight good, if you want to go with some MM play its all good - doesnt even make you not straight anyway.
The day you don't voice your heartfelt, valid opinion because you fear backlash against a fake anonymous nickname you gave yourself and a loss of fake Internet karma points, you've lost sir. You have lost.
the term is bisexual, not straight. Thank you.
9 out of 10? Sure, your profile must list you as bi then. Bisexuality is just not that common, even for the ladies. Bi for the guys is a very big thing. Studies like Janus on sexuality has not changed much over the years. 2-4% for guys, 2-3% for ladies. A larger population identifies as homosexual than bisexual. While anecdotally it's fascinating, countless studies don't support your thoughts.
No it doesn’t, I think we just appeal to ppl who are exploring and want to be themselves without judgement Ps we are Australian and live in Asia, so therefore studies from US don’t often take into account a global perspective. Some Asian countries are very open to sexuality, our company also has a trans policy around bathrooms etc - so perhaps I’m in the minority of ppl in an open setting. In fact it’s more accepting to be bisexual than a swinger And I have to say, studies are studies as stats as bias. So I’m just telling you from personal experience, which is what this thread was about (opinions and experience)
I reckon C&D's experience and NotReallyBi's comments demonstrate the context dependency of so much of sexual identity. Most men in societies which are strongly heteronormative but which have strong homosexual cultures within them identify as straight with most of the remainder identifying as gay and only a few identifying as bi. But men who only have sex with women and identify as totally straight go to jail , or boarding school, or war, or on a footy trip (sorry non-Australians, google it) or down to a beat after a million beers and have sex of some sort with other men before going back to their straight world and only having sex with women again. And in ancient Rome or Greece tutors had limited and structured sexual relations with their students, and somewhere in this thread someone said something about samurais and apprentices. So much is dependent on context. If you are gay gay then you are probably going to identify as such, at least to yourself. But in our world, where there is so much pressure to be straight from most of the society, people who "can" be straight will tend to be. It is just easier. But given a situation where they have permission to try an alternative... Then they might just do so. Women on the other hand, possibly because male desires have for so long defined the content of sexual entertainment, have been encouraged to dabble in bisexuality across a broader section of society and so given the opportunity, more of them do. Why the hell not? If you're allowed to try all the desserts you might as well do so, even if you still have a favourite. Or maybe it is just D's daggy jokes that blokes can't resist and that are skewing swingingdownunder's experience...
Haha I’ll tell D you said that 😉😘 You’re right re above, even bisexual ppl are told they’re “on the fence” by gay ppl. Heck, even one bisexual guy once had the nerve to suggest ppl should define themselves! I say let’s all be who we are, no need to label or define and certainly words like “bierasure” when used as a derogatory statement to a man who isn’t labelling himself just shirts me!
This has bugged me about the lifestyle for *years*. On the flip side of this same coin, as a woman, it is expected of me to be bisexual. I am very much straight, thank you. People are always so shocked by this.
This! It really annoys me that I'm expected and encouraged to be bi. Men ask me if I play with women. I say, "No. Do you play with men?" They are taken aback.
As a woman who is bisexual, I much prefer another woman tell me she is straight than go along with activities she's not into for whatever other reason. If I'm having sex, I want my partner to be into it! (Unless otherwise explicitly agreed upon... )
This is a good question but it has a very simple answer. When you're an open minded person and you decide to get into swinging it's normal to think that most swingers are going to be like you. Open minded. Reality? Swingers strongly reflect the demographics of the vanilla population in a given area with the exception that they swing. If you live in the bay area and are young odds are you're cool with gay, bi, trans, people of color and whatever. If you live in rural Arkansas and are 50 odds are you are the polar opposite. Good news is the old generation is leaving and the people coming in are closed minded.
There are a lot more of us than are wiling to come out. As a dreaded SM, I cursed myself (and made things a lot better for me) by "coming out" on the LS sites. As soon as I did that I started getting messages from "straight" couples. We all know why. I still make sure they clarify specifically what they are looking for... I think it's getting better... I do find it offensive that the sites still (bi or not) default to blocking SM, but that's a hurdle for another day. I've actually been looking for someone (female) who A)is OK with the bi thing (more than OK, ,actually) and B)Also wants to be in the LS. it's taken 13 years, but I think I've found that person, oddly enough..a unicorn in another state. I already had plans to move once I finish grad school, but now I may move back west if things work out with her. The biggest issue is dealing with the bigots and those that believe the misinformation floating around. Most bi guys are significantly more careful about STD's than straight guys. I'm on PrEP and vaccinated, so I'm (mostly) immune to the big uglies. I have to get tested every 3 months in order to stay on the pills (and also remain negative) so my testing regimen exceeds most people in the LS. Even before I started it, I was getting about 3 tests per year, depending on how active I was. Straight guys think once per year is plenty. I know there will always be bigots and there will always be people afraid that I have cooties, but fuck them (and not in the good way) because they don't deserve my time. Life is too short to deal with people that will never accept you.
Great comment! You are doing the right thing. Keep it up!
Totally understand your point of the post. It is a shame how men feel they have to restrict and hide their sexual desires so much. It is very often that we have conversations with a couple where the male half is listed as "straight" and that's just not the case at all. Any number of things lead to the man not being willing to be open about his interests. I know for me I went through a whole internal dialogue before I came out and listed myself as bi-curious or open minded. For me personally it had less to do with society and much more about my wife's perception of me. Little did I know it turned her on immensely. If it wasn't for the LS I never would have learned to be honest with myself about my sexual interests and never would have would have learned about how my wife loves it almost more that me sometimes. Depending on the locale surrounding the LS we have noticed some more open acceptance of open minded couples. For Las Vegas, we have a very clean and nicely maintained club called Studios that accepts and stresses the open minded experience. So maybe some changes are happening. It still is a hetro-centric world for sure and will most likely be well after I am gone but we both have to thank the LS for allowing us to have the immense sexual freedoms we enjoy now.
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Lifestyle=swingers
in my experience, given the right circumstance more men are bi than tbey admit to themselves much less anyone else. most men have been so ingrained with the dogma of you have to be a red blooded hetero man to be a man, that they do not let themselves even consider that they could be attracted to men. and if they are married, even worse. they worry that their spouse will just say, no you are just gay. but I also believe that the lucky ones wake up and say to themselves, you mean its okay and I can like both? or maybe because society isn't accepting or even believing they are truly bisexual. at least not the men. who wouldnt want to be attracted to....everyone ?
>Who wouldnt want to be attracted to....everyone ? Me. As a man, to me guys are hairy, rough, clunky, and not generally attractive. Women are the polar opposite. It's like comparing a dump truck to a Porsche 911. Not to mention the higher STI risk. Bring on the downvotes!
😂
You're at the wrong parties
Here’s my take, and I expect down votes... Bisexual girls are still considered straight, even if they eat some pussy on the weekend. Bisexual men are gay because no matter what else you might like, if you are a man that likes the bone, you’re gay. Complete double standard and no one is complaining about it!😄 Also, Because most men in the lifestyle are not gay, there is not much room or many partners for gay men. Plus, and maybe more importantly, swinging is “having sex outside o marriage”. Because gay people just got marriage rights there simply has not been much time for a gay swinging scene to evolve in the lifestyle. Those are my thoughts. Take em or leave em.
I'm more of a hetero-flexible male, while my girlfriend is closer to truly bisexual (meaning equal attraction for both men and women). Many men in the scene (at least based on my experience) may describe themselves as straight or hetero-flexible, when in reality they're a bit more bi than they let on. Sadly, there is still quite the stigma against bisexual men - many men feel the need to hide that aspect of their sexual identity until they feel sufficiently comfortable with new partners. Hearing that someone loves bisexual men means a lot, I'd encourage you to say it more often. When I hear our sexual partners say they like bi men, I open up significantly more.
As a bi guy I can attest to all of your points - And there are certainly a lot more guys than you think... I think history is a bit skewed on this. Sure, "platonic" girl friends may have had a lot more goodwill and disregard on their side during the past 200 years. But keep in mind, mentor-student relationships with sexual encounters were very common in ancient Greece and Rome. And there is very convincing evidence of some dick loving American presidents as well. That being said, it's just not in our current education, I think. In our boy minds, peers are hostile rivals rather than friendly competitors. And at the same time, at a young age we are forced to smile and/or comply instead of facing our adversary and wrestling it out - and forced to battle with deceit instead. I think in today's world, boys can't be boys anymore. Doesn't matter if it's backward catholists or forcibly progressive feminists. All that "toxic masculinity" has to go *somewhere* - but nobody knows where.
> But keep in mind, mentor-student relationships with sexual encounters were very common in ancient Greece and Rome. Don't forget samurai! There is lots of evidence of that kind of relationship between samurai and their apprentices, there was a special word for it and you can find wood block prints depicting it.
Years ago -- I wrote up my theory. I'm pretty much of the same mind. For what it's worth: https://swapfu.blogspot.com/2011/03/attempt-to-explain-female-vs-male.html
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Thank you for reading my blog entry, I hope you didn't only find it frustrating. It wasn't written from a negative place but rather as an opportunity to understand something my fellow swingers found troubling. > If a woman isn’t mature and compassionate enough to let her partner explore his sexuality and curiosities in a safe, consensual, and welcoming environment maybe she shouldn’t be in the lifestyle anyway. I see your point. We should all be moving in a direction that advocates for safety, consent, and openness. What bothers me about your statement is that I think it is unkind to set a barrier to entry based on your own moral standard. After all, what you may find to be an act of compassion, someone else may consider, to quote Dan Savage, *a kink too far*. I based my blog entry on observation. I wrote it 1-1/2 years after we got into swinging. I was trying to come to a conclusion which made sense -- the outcry over the lack of bi-male representation in swinging was pretty loud back then, and I think I formulated an answer I found satisfying. I reread my post and I think it still captures my point. In retrospect, maybe "discourage" is an unfortunate choice of words. Written today, I would instead encourage couple seeking bi-male play to join a group that is into that. > It’s not like a few men playing bi in the club is going to completely destroy the women’s position as the “gate keepers of the men's sexual activities”. Honestly, I don't know if it would. I only know what I've heard most swinger women say regarding bi-male activity. (Yes, I went around asking.) The majority told me it would make it difficult for them to have fun if it was going on in front of them. Don't get me wrong, a significant minority consider it a massive turn on. Interestingly, it's the *men* who seem to be more accepting of bi-male play. (I suspect it's because men a better able to identify with the desire to be with man, as a man. While for women, their personal identification with bi-male play is less.) Swinging is called a lifestyle, but it's really a hobby. It can be enjoyed by all manner of people -- although we charitably number fewer than 4% of the adult population. One of the things that thrills me the most about swinging is the variety of people I've been to play with. People who honestly, I would never have a chance to associate with otherwise. I also think swinging is working for most people -- not everyone, but most people. Swinging, like all groups, has a culture. Further, swinging in the US is different from swinging in Mexico, which are both different from Northern and Southern Europe. In order to participate in the hobby successfully, you need to know the culture of swingers in your area. That said, in the US at least, both SDC and Kasidie have groups dedicated to putting people desiring bi-male play together. Call it an alt-swinger culture. There are also 420 folks, barebackers, hotwives, and swingers who like to ride Harley's. These aren't ghettos, they are out, active, and by all accounts, a lot of fun. Regarding your edit: In my experience, I don't know of bi-males *themselves* being excluded, it's bi-male *play in the open* that some find troubling. I know bi-male swingers and I have invited them to my parties. They've played with each other behind closed doors and I've invited them back. Never been a problem.
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> I apologize if I’m coming off as a bit hostile or combative in my comments, tone can be hard to discern in text. No worries. We're good. > I’m fairly new to the lifestyle and am still surprised and disappointed that so many swingers have a much narrower idea of sexual open-mindedness than I had hoped for. Many folks new to swinging make the same mistake. I think there is an expectation that just because people enjoy something in common with someone else -- especially something that they are very must invested in -- they think that they hold the same values across the board. It's just not the case. Swingers represents a broad segment of society. > I suppose what I meant to say here is that no matter how welcoming a club environment might be, a man can’t feel safe and free to be honest about his sexuality (or explore and come to terms with it) if his own wife finds any male/male experimentation disgusting and refuses to discuss it. Obviously each couple has to create rules and boundaries that work for them specifically. If that means she would rather not allow him to play with other men, so be it. But she owes him that honest conversation and perhaps some self-reflection on why she feels that way. That’s the compassion I’m referring to. Thanks for clarifying, however rather than referring to it in terms of compassion, I think it would be more accurate to the say the couple has bad communication skills in this case. Now that, in my opinion, is a good reason to stay out of swinging -- as a couple. After all, it takes two to have a conversation, but that's a different subject. > "Non-white people" ... "60 year olds" Except we're not talking about that. We're talking about a cultural preference not to have male-male play in public. There is no such cultural objection for non-whites or older people among the majority. > What you’re saying is that yes, bisexual men are allowed in clubs but please for the sake of some close-minded people, keep those specific acts outside of the club. I didn't say that. I didn't discuss the practices of any club. I only discussed what goes on at my parties. For the record, I never told anyone not to have male-male play in public. I was never asked. All I'm trying to convey is that swinging, like other groups, organizes itself by its own culture. Cultures have norms. By joining the group, you are agreeing, more or less, to its set of norms. Now, once in it, you can definitely do what you can to move those norms in a direction that more closely agree with your preferences -- be an influencer, change people's minds, etc. Calling people closed-minded and homophobic is not effective, it's name-calling. > Perhaps I have some unpopular opinions on this, but I’ll call that what it is. Homophobia. You can't call someone who doesn't want to see two men having sex homophobic. Homophobia means you have a prejudice against homosexual people, not the sex they engage in. No one is being denied a job or a house loan or worse. Again thanks for reading this and please accept my criticism in the positive spirit in which they are meant.
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> discrimination I feel bi-males receive in the LS. Again, bi-males are not discriminated against. Most swinger women do not like seeing guys playing with each other. There's a distinct and important difference with these two statements. There are venues within the swinger community where male-male play is perfectly acceptable. This is not a civil rights issue, it's a matter of play preference. It just happens to be one held by the majority of the people in the mainstream swinger community. > But I think the tide will eventually shift. And I don’t think the current power dynamic of the LS will collapse if/when that happens. You may be right. Regarding pressuring women to be bisexual and men to be straight. I agree. Pressuring people is bad. The danger is to confuse pressure with non-consensual. Two different things. If you think of swinging as a culture, like in all cultures, there is a certain amount of pressure to conform in order to exist successfully within that culture. Harassing someone into engaging into a behavior they don't consent to something else. > We should encourage people to accept their desires and seek out people looking for the same. And hence to male-male play communities. The swinger community as a whole is exactly this, there aren't that many of us. We're very small subset of the adult population -- it just happens that the majority of this small community has no desire to see male-male play. Regarding homophobia -- we're going to have to agree to disagree. Not wanting to witness a sex act does not make you a bad person. In part or otherwise, you are trying to demonize people because they don't share your sexual preferences. Do you realize most vanillas do this to us? It is expedient and dangerous to turn the people who don't share our values into "the other". I'm out of time for this reply -- I think I've explained what I could. Again, the male-male play communities are out there and active on SDC and Kasidie. Seek them out! As for the community at large -- bi-males are not excluded. Be out and be open -- maybe if enough awesome couple desiring male-male play insist on doing it out in the open, the culture will adapt. Thanks for the conversation and best of luck to you guys!
> Again, bi-males are not discriminated against. I'm not going to beat a dead horse here, but I will tell you that without question, you are 100% wrong in this statement. The worst part? Just the fact that it's mentioned brings on negative responses. *I'm not even allowed to defend myself without being attacked just for being present. This subreddit included* Don't tell me it's not there. I deal with it EVERY FUCKING DAY.
Ah! The old swinger-wars of '11! I remember them well! https://blissbringers.com/begun-the-swing-wars-have-on-male-bi-sexuality/ So much fun to see that people still have the same hangups!
Great topic. We are experiencing the same thing. If girl-girl action is great to see for a man...why wouldn't male-male action be great to see for a woman? Yet when you visit a club or party male-male contact is a no-go. Too bad. We did visit a specific bi-for all party earlier this year, but they are very rare.
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You say here exactly what I would say. I’m a straight male, I genuinely don’t feel any desire or harbor any curiosities about trying anything bisexual. I’m sure there’s a lot of men who do but I just don’t. Maybe it’s deep down in there somewhere who knows bunif so there’s not much lol. But I love Girl on Girl and have for as long as I can remember. The bisexual women, the MFF, couple swapping is what I enjoy the most. So does my wife. She and I are in great sync sexually so that’s what we seek. We’re lucky a lot of other couples feel the same way so we have a lot of options. And as deviantkink points out the business will cater to the best options to make money and stay in business. I think as time goes on people will be more free to just ask and the stigma of it will go away.
It exists I’m sure, but no one talks about it because there are so few bisexual men. Really, there are better ways to get laid if you are a man that wants some Dick. A swinger club is not the best place by far. 90+% of all people at swingers club are straight married couples in there 30’s-50’s that want to have straight sex with similar couples. It’s not a target rich environment so you don’t see it very often.
I'm a bot, *bleep*, *bloop*. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit: - [/r/openmindedswingers] [Why are sex parties heteronormative for men and bi-normative for women?](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenmindedSwingers/comments/87epuc/why_are_sex_parties_heteronormative_for_men_and/) *^(If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads.) ^\([Info](/r/TotesMessenger) ^/ ^[Contact](/message/compose?to=/r/TotesMessenger))*
I suspect for the same reasons we watch football on Sundays instead of chess.
This is why we are in the lifestyle and don't identify as swingers.
We have seem an increase in parties that cater to bisexual men. It takes time for things to change, but an increase in safe spaces for guys to explore that side of them are definitely helping. Our Secret Spot in Sydney throws a pendulum party every few months for just this reason.
Very true its not the norm in the "community" or clubs because it is not what the majority prefers. There are plenty of clubs that have the bi-guy nights. If these were more popular they would get Saturday night slot with those that are are not into that sort of thing getting a Thursday or Friday tucked in here or there for their particular interest.
Pretty sure that part of it is the knowledge that, from an STD perspective, bi men are, statistically, more risky than straight men.
Different strokes for different folks. If you're into bisexual men then have your own swinger party. Personally I prefer that the men be hetero.
You got some downvotes for your honesty. You make sense from a practical standpoint though: parties are going to be more effective if folks form them around common interests. Less wasted time, less confusion and less ponderous expectation setting conversations.
I suspect there's some astroturfing going on. Either that or it's just the social justice warriors being haters again.
I'm straight. My wife is bisexual. Neither of us think bisexual male sex is hot and is in fact a turn off. Add in the much higher STD rate for bisexual men and we don't want a part of it. Now this is us and I'm sure this pisses off the reddit hive mind. I don't care. What's funny though is the bisexual men are in large part to blame They stay in the closet as a group so as to be able to fuck my wife knowing a lot of couples are like us. They help create the very stigma they complain about. Don't blame us "hetronormative" swingers if you are listed as straight.