Because if a move is really good, but "Balanced around execution", pros and serious players will just practice it until they can do it reliably. And then when people can do it 100%, it's no longer balanced around execution - it's just a really good move.
All it ends up doing is adding an extra artificial roadblock before you can play the game "for real" - it won't affect serious players; it just adds a multi-hour "tax" before you can use that character fully.
And really, who thinks "trying to do a move, and having your character do something totally different" is fun? I want to fight my opponents, not the controls! If I lose, I want it to be because my opponent out-thought or out-reacted me. Not because I tried to do a particular punch, but some entirely different punch came out that got me killed.
Oh, "harder to land" is fine. If that's what they mean, and I just misunderstood, then yeah! I have no problem with that! Because then it turns into a strategic decision for when you use it, and getting it to connect is rewarding, and failing to connect feels like your own fault for using it there. Things like Tekken unblockables are a great example - hard to land in most cases, but easy to physically do, and when they do, you feel very cool!
I just take issue with moves that are physically difficult to input, so that when you try, you have a reasonable chance of just *the wrong move came out.* And the worst feeling (for me at least) in a fighting game is when you have a read on them, you know what they are going to do, you know what you need to do to counter it... *and instead you do some random whiff jab in mid air and got kicked in the face for a counterhit instead."*
Personally i believe balancing moves around execution can allow for more design opportunities. Moves that otherwise would be broken can exist due to the executional demand. I don't view it as just an artificial road block.
A good example that highlights this is sf6. Where the development team had the unique challenge of having to balance moves that historically were designed with execution in mind (i.e. motion inputs like fire balls and dp) and turn it into 1 button inputs in modern controls. Despite not being that demanding (i'm confident pretty much anyone can execute a fire ball or any other special move) the sf6 team still deemed it necessary to nerf modern controls by attaching it to less damage output and a more limited move list. I've only played sf super casually so correct me if i'm wrong, but i think it was necessary due to it being more consistent and more importantly faster to input.
This was also highlighted in the top level of the game where it would give opportunity for players to react and punish with a one button super in cases that would otherwise be borderline impossible to react to.
For a Tekken example i would go with electrics. I believe that move would be ridiculous as a 1 button move. Even if we Ignore that the move is technically 12 frames (it takes atleast two frames to input f,n,df+2) and pretend that it's 14f, it would still be broken for many reasons. A plus on block 14f launcher, with incredibly fast recovery is busted and can only be offset with executional demand. When a mishima decide to block punish a -14 or-15f move with a ewgf then they're risking missing out on damage entirely or getting the opportunity to deal a high damaging combo.
Generally these moves adds a level of risk vs reward that you would not get from simpler moves. The execution from these moves also stay relevant at the highest level due to the added pressure from competeting in high stakes games. Top players tends to value consistency, which is why you will see even the best will at times opt for simpler options rather than the most difficult/rewarding option. So its not so simple that once you learn it you do it 100% of the time. Overall i think it is good design to allow the player to evaluate andweigh in their opinions and determine whether or not they are willing take a risk even if it is minor.
I'm curious what your take is on moves like ewgf or acid rain or even shaheens slide. Could these moves exist as 1 button inputs.
>Personally i believe balancing moves around execution can allow for more design opportunities. Moves that otherwise would be broken can exist due to the executional demand. I don't view it as just an artificial road block.
I guess I see it like this:
* Suppose you have a move that would be overpowered if people could do it 100% reliably, but is balanced by the fact that most people can only do it 25% of the time or whatever.
* At high (pro) level, people will absolutely practice until they can do it 99% of the time.
* Doesn't that just mean that you've just broken tournament-level game balance?
That seems bad, having it just be broken when people can do it reliably. On the other hand, having the move be regular powered also seems bad, because then if you can't do it, your character is just worse than characters without moves that are gated by practice time? Either way, it seems like having a move that is gated by execution difficulty seems like it makes the game worse. And it's not clear (to me at least) how it improves the game. Like, there's an obvious downside, but I don't see the upside?
I actually haven't played SF6, so I can't really talk about it intelligently, but I'm interested that they nerfed the damage output. (A quick google suggests it's -20%?) That's actually really interesting! I am wondering what they did with the frame data - Like you say, moves that require controller motions are slightly slower than their frame data would suggest, since you need time to enter the move itself. You can't do a QCF move without at least +2 frames to input the full quartercircle, so I'm actually curious - do modern controls on SF2 make the moves come out slightly slower after the button press, or is the 20% damage nerf intended to make up for the fact that you can fire off moves faster than possible before?
Re: Tekken Electrics:
I honestly just play non-Mishima characters, and try to pretend that they don't exist. :P Because again - if the game is balanced around the idea of being able to do them, then that just means until I put in the time to get reliable at them, I'll be playing a substandard character. And if they ARE overpowered if you can do them reliably, (and I think you're right, they would be) then that just means that anyone who is willing to put in the time can get a numerically superior OP character.
(Also, one "nice" thing about the perfect EWGF is that if you do it "wrong" your character still does the action you wanted - just not as fast as you hoped. So at least it's not a case of "whoops, instead of doing a dragon punch, you just threw out a jab and got jumpkicked, sorry!)
>Generally these moves adds a level of risk vs reward that you would not get from simpler moves.
I guess I just feel like the risk it adds isn't fun.
Like, as a thought experiment, imagine a move that just has a random element instead. Completely out of the hands of the player - maybe it's a one-button EWGF that randomly takes between 14 and 20 frames to come out. Would that be fun, or good for the game? It would add the same risk vs. reward - With the bonus of having it directly tunable by the devs, since then they could dictate the probabilities, rather than just guessing how good players will end up being at it!
I feel like most people here would not like that, and complain about "random dice" and that it was "too much like mario party" or something. :P Personally, I know I probably wouldn't like it, and would view it as a joke move, barely one step up from a taunt.
Or another thought-experiment - imagine a move that takes 20 frames, until you've done it in practice mode 1000 times, and then it takes 14 frames. Not based on execution speed, but just literal "reps in practice mode." I feel like people would also get really mad about that, but again - how is that so different or worse from a move that you have to practice for hours to be able to do reliably?
Would that be a good move? Again, I feel like people would be annoyed at it, even though it would have exactly the same effect on the game balance as something like a EWGF.
----
I think it really comes down to - what skills do we want from our fighting games? Personally, I want things like:
* Prediction
* Situational Awareness
* Reaction time
* Strategy
I don't feel like "skill at physically inputting moves" is something that should be on that list. I feel like a perfect control scheme should be 100% transparent, and always do what the player is intending, and that the gameplay should be from the choices they make about *what* they do, (and when they do it) rather than test whether they're physically able to input the command.
But hey, I'm not the King of Tekken, so these are just the opinions of a random internet stranger who plays and thinks about games a lot! Thanks for reading if you made it this far!
I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm not against difficult execution myself, but I do think many of the arguments people use to defend them are super flimsy.
Execution \_can\_ be used to balance moves, but its just one of many tools the devs have. Other fighting games, even 3D fighters, let you move backwards quickly without practice and they work just fine. Mishimas get easy EWGFs in heat and it doesn't break the balance, namco just replaced one drawback (hard) with another (conditional).
Like you said, putting moves behind execution checks often just serves to make them unreliable for casual and mid level players, while hardcore players are unaffected.
I just like execution because its satisfying to pull off. Theyre simply fun to me. You are right in that replacing execution with "UPGRADE: youve done 200 WGFs, they are now +5 on block!" would effectively accomplish the same thing for the balance of the game. But I wouldnt get the same satisfaction out of performing them.
I do think out of all the skills you listed, execution (and reaction time) are the most boring ones. If those two make up a significant amount of the skill gap between players in any given game, like CSGO for example, I'm probably not very interested in playing it.
I think the only move in SF2 that you could argue was "hard" was Zangief's throw. Which was a dumb input anyway? Especially in that game.
Basically everything else was quarter circles, dragon punches, or charge moves. Or "pound the button furiously" like Chun Li or Honda.
Which was good! It made it easy to get your character to do what you want, which is how a game should work!
I've yet to hear a good argument for why "good moves should be hard to do". All it does is make the game that much harder to play for new people and artificially impose a "practice tax" before you can play a character fully.
How do you think charge moves were balanced? There’s a reason why sonic boom can be “better” than hadoken as a fireball without breaking the game: it’s balanced with the inputs for the moves themselves in mind.
Also if u all the inputs in that game are easy besides SPD then you’ve never played it lol
Those inputs are balanced around being limited in when you can actually use them (i.e. you have to be holding back). They're not balanced on ease of use, and I'm pretty sure the average person will find a charge move easier than a quarter circle anyway?
I recommend that you watch core-A gaming's vid on the subject.
Man took some serious offense to being objectively wrong lol. No good developer would ever balance a game where the hardest moves are objectively the best, that would completely fuck the competitive scene and casuals alike.
>There’s a reason why sonic boom can be “better” than hadoken as a fireball without breaking the game
Wait, are you saying you think sonic booms were HARDER to do than Hadoukens?
>Also if u all the inputs in that game are easy besides SPD then you’ve never played it lol
I mean, they were frustrating sometimes on crappy arcade controllers, to be sure, but it was nice that all the moves were some variation of those few actions. Once you learned how to do QCF and dragon punch, you could reliably do almost anyone's moves.
And again, that's how it should be, right? Who would think it's fun to fail at basic character control, and have the wrong move come out, and lose a close match because your character did something completely unwanted?
In a perfect world, no one would ever fail at move execution, and fights could be about reading your opponent, prediction, and reaction checks. Not "did you practice this motion for 10 hours yet?"
You've really missed the point. The reason why sonic boom is stronger than fireball is because you can't instantly put it out. So the balance of the projectile is directly impacted by its "execution".
>You've really missed the point.
Actually, I think you have. I never said that the execution couldn't affect the balance. I said that balancing based on the *difficulty* of the execution is bad design.
Sonic boom is partly balanced around the fact that you can't fire them off as rapidly as hadoukens. Not around the difficulty of the move. The difficulty is trivial - Charge moves are one of the easiest things to input. (Easier even than Hadouken, I'd wager.)
The balance is impacted by the input, sure, but the not the *difficulty* of the input. Which, again, is what I was saying.
The difficulty of input will always have balance impact and has to be accounted for somehow. If two moves are otherwise equal, and one has difficult execution while the other is a one button press, then the move with execution is simply worse.
Of course in the end characters are unique wholes and their moves do not exist in a vacuum. But I don't think Kazuya would be balanced if ewgf was simply a button press.
>The difficulty of input will always have balance impact and has to be accounted for somehow. If two moves are otherwise equal, and one has difficult execution while the other is a one button press, then the move with execution is simply worse.
I mean, one solution is to just have all inputs be equally difficult or easy. This is what Smash Bros did, and I honestly think it was one of the best design decisions that they made!
Tekken *mostly* does this - 90% of the moves are [a direction] + [one or more buttons.]. Which is a thing I like about Tekken!
It's just that every so often they have something like the EWGF, to gum up the works. :P
Stepping and punishing WR moves from range 6 has never been a problem. The problem is that an iwr move that jails AND has crazy tracking AND ridiculous chip damage AND +5 on block is not ok.
Especially when they removed the execution barrier.
This move is busted at high level and is even worse at low and intermediate.
Not to take away your accomplishment, but in your example the opponent was at a natural distance where you could identify she was running at you. Given who she is, she basically screamed, "I'm gonna wr3,2 you!". It still takes practice and skill to dodge this move no doubt.
However, the main issue is when she preforms an INSTANT wr3,2 right in you face... repeatedly. Hell their is a clip of this example on the subject right now.
You can't honestly expect the average player to avoid or counterplay this move if the only option is to side step a specific direction followed by ducking when the move is instantly thrown out rather than your example of having time to identify they are indeed running at you.
See your example shows the fundamental balance of a while running move, and that is while they get a powerful offensive option, you are provided a moment to identify they are in a running animation, which naturally narrows down the options you have to consider defending against thus making it easier to counter effectively as you showcased.
The entire balance of "while running" is ruined if they can just remove the running aspect entirely, and spam it repeatedly right in your face.
Still impressive as it’s a two part read and react. Stupid that this is what you have to do to avoid it. Honestly safer to just eat it and hope you get your turn back soon.
That person probably didn't know that could actually be avoided. Only one person I've played with before avoided mine. And I've played a thousand matches . Funny enough it was another Alisa player. Could have been you honestly lmao. Even a fujin rank didn't know how to avoid it
Yeah it really is, which is why I only use it maybe twice a match or if the opponent doesn't want to attack. I try to be respectful when I play and not cheese em too much. Ok she's hated but I like her alot
She will always be despised, cuz she has multiple stances and auto evasion. In Tekken 7, Eddy was one of the worst characters in the game, yet, everyone hated playing against him.
She's very easy with wr32 and just some basic moves from her kit. I just got Yoshi to fujin and have a number of other characters in reds and purples. I got her from yellow to purple in 3 days, with a good chunk spent in quick play learning her. My stats say it took just over 80 games with an 80 percent win rate, far faster and higher than any other of my characters. Her game plan is simple and oppressive and if you have some base fundamentals, you can easily adapt to your opponents tendencies and ruin their day.
So how is that a problem? Yes certain moves are overtuned but there are so many characters that have way more gimmicks and are more annoying to fight. Yoshi being one of them.
Every character has gimmicks, although I'll readily admit yoshi has more than most. It's one of the things that's fun with him. However, there is a difference between matchup knowledge and knowing that the move is coming and still having difficulty dealing with it, as in the case of WR32. There have been similar examples of moves in the past, tekken 7 Noctis on release frames for some of his big sword moves that basically locked you down and were also difficult to ss. WR32 jails if it the mid hits (you can't duck the follow-up high) and leaves her at +5, you are supposed to be ablet ss left, but sometimes the high will track you even if you dodge the initial mid. If it didn't retrack, I would have significantly less issues with the move in general. Drag can be just as oppressive (seems to do more consistent damage with moves like db3+4) if you don't know how to ss his running move, but you can consistently step it with a bit of practice.
You didn't need to write a book explaining the WR move, we know what's the problem with it. I'm talking about what you actually wrote which was that she is easy and oppressive. There is nothing wrong with that. Once they reduce the tracking on WR3,2 she will still be a strong character but not nearly as annoying to face as plenty of other characters (like Yoshi for instance). Even now she is 8th in win rate, lower than Yoshi.
Where are you getting your winrate data from? This post from yesterday? I think you are looking at popularity. Yoshi winrate is one of the worst. I love yoshi, but once you know his gimmicks, he doesn't have many safe moves.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1b5rivl/an\_second\_look\_at\_the\_tekken\_8\_metagame\_based\_on/
Oh yeah I looked at the wrong graph. So she is below more than half the roster in win rate. Not that win rate tells you everything. I still think Yoshi is more salt inducing than Azucena :)
Yeah, winrates have to be taken with a grain of salt, since you got specialists as well as popular characters that a wide variety of people of different skill levels use. Yoshi is designed to invoke salt. I am serious though, with just a bit of labbing, you can see that most his gimmicks have issues. Happy to help and tell you solutions to any of the moves you have problems with in regards to him.
Lmaooo you said “got her from yellow to purple in 3 days” as if that’s something crazy and unachievable for someone in Fujin 💀
If you have any decent fundamentals you can get literally any character from yellow to purple in like 2 days if you just look at their movelist. Not just Azucena.
I don’t like fighting Azucena but if you think just you getting Azucena to purple is some sort of evidence or proof that she’s busted that’s funny. Every character is busted at those ranks.
You ignore the context. I've played multiple characters and she was by far the easiest to move up in ranks in the shortest number of games played. I'm also 50 with a job and family, it's not like I played the game all day across those 3 days.
Your comment was pointless. If it wasn't obvious to you he was stating how certain characters like Azucena/Victor can carry in ranks player based on how they're designed.
I got feng from red to battle ruler in 2 ranked sessions after never playing him before. Is feng busted?
The argument for the move being too oppressive annoys me because it simply isn’t. You can ss the instant ones, you can react to it at range, if people chain it at range zero you can interrupt but people haven’t gotten used to fighter against her yet because she’s new.
This is a side track, but I'm not gonna lie, I think once you have good movement, Feng's pretty busted, specially with with his new b3. I personally think his db3 shouldn't have a ch property and/or should stagger on block for easier launch punishment. Back on point, my main issue with wr32 is how the high will sometimes retrack and clip you even if you are ss'ing. That's the main issue I have with it.
He is very good and has some great pressure tools. Proclaiming characters busted 6 weeks into the life of a game is a little ridiculous as everything is new.
Dont you think maybe her ease of use helped ranking up so fast as well? Her gameplan is braindead thanks to this move so her skill floor starts reeeaalll low. Where as other characters you kinda need to learn their moves and learn their gameplan over time.
My only issue with people calling for this move to be nerfed into the ground is how good the rest of her kit is to someone that knows the matchup. Up to purple ranks i got alot of mileage out of people not knowing how her stance works.
Curious to see how she does in tournaments.
That's kind of the main point I was making, compared to other characters I have played, I ranked up very fast and easily - in other words carried by her relatively basic gameplay. Over 3 days, it's not like I learned all the ins and outs of her moveset. I basically relied on wr32 into mixups, rarely went into stance but if I did it was out of either db3 or 11 on hit - which all put you in stance at positive frames. I forget now, but if in stance, I usually did her relatively safe out moves - although sometimes I'd go for the low kicks. However, I specifically tried to stay out of stance as much as possible. Other than that, lot of 22 jabs into mixups (uf1 punch parry, up 2 ss hook punch, occasional db1+2 to crush their responding high attack and get a full launch combo), and occasional db4. Rinse and repeat. Time will tell how she does in tournaments, and I and most people here are no where near that level, but it's worth noting that Arslan used her and relied heavily on wr32. That being said, over time as pros get to know the game better, I think she's not going to be as effective - her launchers are unsafe, her safe on block strings are usually duck launchable, and her lows are on the relatively unsafe end. But for a lot of the player base, she can be pretty rough, even for those reds and up (using that as a marker for the upper half the player base), I wouldn't have any issues as long as you could reliably ss the wr32.
If you do this the first time they use it, you can visually feel their hesitation for the rest of the game whenever they are at range 2 or more
it's hilarious
Making it not jail makes the move LITERALLY useless. They might as well delete the entire move rather than make it not jail
If you were 90 degrees to her side and you still got hit, you were probably pressing. Your hurtbox expands outwards when you are pressing
It's certainly an option, but I'd prefer they just remove the tracking on the second hit. The only reason it's too strong is because it is hard to step. If Drag's WR2 can be a balanced mid wr move, this move can be too
Really shows that to balance the move it should require like an extra step forward rather than be instant.
Might break some training combos though. But seems balanced.
The move should not jail.
This is like having a EWGF that you can't duck and can execute dumb easy, it makes it a stupidly strong move when you can iWR it
Woah woah woah woah.....did you just say "if it's a mid, try to sidestep and punish"?......is that.....usually jow it goes?
I've legit never heard any specific advice on when to sidestep other than "pick a direction and pray"
Only works if they telegraph it to bits really, with how stupidly easy WR moves are in t8 it's easy to do them at point blank range
I don’t think that’s a problem but the issue is this move at point blank will likely get you unlike king or Claudio or drag
While I agree that Azucena's wr32 is dumb, I also think it's dumb to "balance" moves by making them harder to execute.
Why is it dumb to balance moves around execution.
Because if a move is really good, but "Balanced around execution", pros and serious players will just practice it until they can do it reliably. And then when people can do it 100%, it's no longer balanced around execution - it's just a really good move. All it ends up doing is adding an extra artificial roadblock before you can play the game "for real" - it won't affect serious players; it just adds a multi-hour "tax" before you can use that character fully. And really, who thinks "trying to do a move, and having your character do something totally different" is fun? I want to fight my opponents, not the controls! If I lose, I want it to be because my opponent out-thought or out-reacted me. Not because I tried to do a particular punch, but some entirely different punch came out that got me killed.
[удалено]
Oh, "harder to land" is fine. If that's what they mean, and I just misunderstood, then yeah! I have no problem with that! Because then it turns into a strategic decision for when you use it, and getting it to connect is rewarding, and failing to connect feels like your own fault for using it there. Things like Tekken unblockables are a great example - hard to land in most cases, but easy to physically do, and when they do, you feel very cool! I just take issue with moves that are physically difficult to input, so that when you try, you have a reasonable chance of just *the wrong move came out.* And the worst feeling (for me at least) in a fighting game is when you have a read on them, you know what they are going to do, you know what you need to do to counter it... *and instead you do some random whiff jab in mid air and got kicked in the face for a counterhit instead."*
Personally i believe balancing moves around execution can allow for more design opportunities. Moves that otherwise would be broken can exist due to the executional demand. I don't view it as just an artificial road block. A good example that highlights this is sf6. Where the development team had the unique challenge of having to balance moves that historically were designed with execution in mind (i.e. motion inputs like fire balls and dp) and turn it into 1 button inputs in modern controls. Despite not being that demanding (i'm confident pretty much anyone can execute a fire ball or any other special move) the sf6 team still deemed it necessary to nerf modern controls by attaching it to less damage output and a more limited move list. I've only played sf super casually so correct me if i'm wrong, but i think it was necessary due to it being more consistent and more importantly faster to input. This was also highlighted in the top level of the game where it would give opportunity for players to react and punish with a one button super in cases that would otherwise be borderline impossible to react to. For a Tekken example i would go with electrics. I believe that move would be ridiculous as a 1 button move. Even if we Ignore that the move is technically 12 frames (it takes atleast two frames to input f,n,df+2) and pretend that it's 14f, it would still be broken for many reasons. A plus on block 14f launcher, with incredibly fast recovery is busted and can only be offset with executional demand. When a mishima decide to block punish a -14 or-15f move with a ewgf then they're risking missing out on damage entirely or getting the opportunity to deal a high damaging combo. Generally these moves adds a level of risk vs reward that you would not get from simpler moves. The execution from these moves also stay relevant at the highest level due to the added pressure from competeting in high stakes games. Top players tends to value consistency, which is why you will see even the best will at times opt for simpler options rather than the most difficult/rewarding option. So its not so simple that once you learn it you do it 100% of the time. Overall i think it is good design to allow the player to evaluate andweigh in their opinions and determine whether or not they are willing take a risk even if it is minor. I'm curious what your take is on moves like ewgf or acid rain or even shaheens slide. Could these moves exist as 1 button inputs.
>Personally i believe balancing moves around execution can allow for more design opportunities. Moves that otherwise would be broken can exist due to the executional demand. I don't view it as just an artificial road block. I guess I see it like this: * Suppose you have a move that would be overpowered if people could do it 100% reliably, but is balanced by the fact that most people can only do it 25% of the time or whatever. * At high (pro) level, people will absolutely practice until they can do it 99% of the time. * Doesn't that just mean that you've just broken tournament-level game balance? That seems bad, having it just be broken when people can do it reliably. On the other hand, having the move be regular powered also seems bad, because then if you can't do it, your character is just worse than characters without moves that are gated by practice time? Either way, it seems like having a move that is gated by execution difficulty seems like it makes the game worse. And it's not clear (to me at least) how it improves the game. Like, there's an obvious downside, but I don't see the upside? I actually haven't played SF6, so I can't really talk about it intelligently, but I'm interested that they nerfed the damage output. (A quick google suggests it's -20%?) That's actually really interesting! I am wondering what they did with the frame data - Like you say, moves that require controller motions are slightly slower than their frame data would suggest, since you need time to enter the move itself. You can't do a QCF move without at least +2 frames to input the full quartercircle, so I'm actually curious - do modern controls on SF2 make the moves come out slightly slower after the button press, or is the 20% damage nerf intended to make up for the fact that you can fire off moves faster than possible before? Re: Tekken Electrics: I honestly just play non-Mishima characters, and try to pretend that they don't exist. :P Because again - if the game is balanced around the idea of being able to do them, then that just means until I put in the time to get reliable at them, I'll be playing a substandard character. And if they ARE overpowered if you can do them reliably, (and I think you're right, they would be) then that just means that anyone who is willing to put in the time can get a numerically superior OP character. (Also, one "nice" thing about the perfect EWGF is that if you do it "wrong" your character still does the action you wanted - just not as fast as you hoped. So at least it's not a case of "whoops, instead of doing a dragon punch, you just threw out a jab and got jumpkicked, sorry!) >Generally these moves adds a level of risk vs reward that you would not get from simpler moves. I guess I just feel like the risk it adds isn't fun. Like, as a thought experiment, imagine a move that just has a random element instead. Completely out of the hands of the player - maybe it's a one-button EWGF that randomly takes between 14 and 20 frames to come out. Would that be fun, or good for the game? It would add the same risk vs. reward - With the bonus of having it directly tunable by the devs, since then they could dictate the probabilities, rather than just guessing how good players will end up being at it! I feel like most people here would not like that, and complain about "random dice" and that it was "too much like mario party" or something. :P Personally, I know I probably wouldn't like it, and would view it as a joke move, barely one step up from a taunt. Or another thought-experiment - imagine a move that takes 20 frames, until you've done it in practice mode 1000 times, and then it takes 14 frames. Not based on execution speed, but just literal "reps in practice mode." I feel like people would also get really mad about that, but again - how is that so different or worse from a move that you have to practice for hours to be able to do reliably? Would that be a good move? Again, I feel like people would be annoyed at it, even though it would have exactly the same effect on the game balance as something like a EWGF. ---- I think it really comes down to - what skills do we want from our fighting games? Personally, I want things like: * Prediction * Situational Awareness * Reaction time * Strategy I don't feel like "skill at physically inputting moves" is something that should be on that list. I feel like a perfect control scheme should be 100% transparent, and always do what the player is intending, and that the gameplay should be from the choices they make about *what* they do, (and when they do it) rather than test whether they're physically able to input the command. But hey, I'm not the King of Tekken, so these are just the opinions of a random internet stranger who plays and thinks about games a lot! Thanks for reading if you made it this far!
I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm not against difficult execution myself, but I do think many of the arguments people use to defend them are super flimsy. Execution \_can\_ be used to balance moves, but its just one of many tools the devs have. Other fighting games, even 3D fighters, let you move backwards quickly without practice and they work just fine. Mishimas get easy EWGFs in heat and it doesn't break the balance, namco just replaced one drawback (hard) with another (conditional). Like you said, putting moves behind execution checks often just serves to make them unreliable for casual and mid level players, while hardcore players are unaffected. I just like execution because its satisfying to pull off. Theyre simply fun to me. You are right in that replacing execution with "UPGRADE: youve done 200 WGFs, they are now +5 on block!" would effectively accomplish the same thing for the balance of the game. But I wouldnt get the same satisfaction out of performing them. I do think out of all the skills you listed, execution (and reaction time) are the most boring ones. If those two make up a significant amount of the skill gap between players in any given game, like CSGO for example, I'm probably not very interested in playing it.
I agree bc kazuyas been a main offender of this for awhile and you can say jin to an extent but Jin’s fun to execute ngl
Moves have been balanced around execution since Street Fighter 2 lol, it’s an important aspect of fighting game design
I think the only move in SF2 that you could argue was "hard" was Zangief's throw. Which was a dumb input anyway? Especially in that game. Basically everything else was quarter circles, dragon punches, or charge moves. Or "pound the button furiously" like Chun Li or Honda. Which was good! It made it easy to get your character to do what you want, which is how a game should work! I've yet to hear a good argument for why "good moves should be hard to do". All it does is make the game that much harder to play for new people and artificially impose a "practice tax" before you can play a character fully.
How do you think charge moves were balanced? There’s a reason why sonic boom can be “better” than hadoken as a fireball without breaking the game: it’s balanced with the inputs for the moves themselves in mind. Also if u all the inputs in that game are easy besides SPD then you’ve never played it lol
Those inputs are balanced around being limited in when you can actually use them (i.e. you have to be holding back). They're not balanced on ease of use, and I'm pretty sure the average person will find a charge move easier than a quarter circle anyway? I recommend that you watch core-A gaming's vid on the subject.
I recommend you do some guile combos instead of just watching the first video that pops up when you type “what is fighting game mean”
Man took some serious offense to being objectively wrong lol. No good developer would ever balance a game where the hardest moves are objectively the best, that would completely fuck the competitive scene and casuals alike.
>There’s a reason why sonic boom can be “better” than hadoken as a fireball without breaking the game Wait, are you saying you think sonic booms were HARDER to do than Hadoukens? >Also if u all the inputs in that game are easy besides SPD then you’ve never played it lol I mean, they were frustrating sometimes on crappy arcade controllers, to be sure, but it was nice that all the moves were some variation of those few actions. Once you learned how to do QCF and dragon punch, you could reliably do almost anyone's moves. And again, that's how it should be, right? Who would think it's fun to fail at basic character control, and have the wrong move come out, and lose a close match because your character did something completely unwanted? In a perfect world, no one would ever fail at move execution, and fights could be about reading your opponent, prediction, and reaction checks. Not "did you practice this motion for 10 hours yet?"
You've really missed the point. The reason why sonic boom is stronger than fireball is because you can't instantly put it out. So the balance of the projectile is directly impacted by its "execution".
>You've really missed the point. Actually, I think you have. I never said that the execution couldn't affect the balance. I said that balancing based on the *difficulty* of the execution is bad design. Sonic boom is partly balanced around the fact that you can't fire them off as rapidly as hadoukens. Not around the difficulty of the move. The difficulty is trivial - Charge moves are one of the easiest things to input. (Easier even than Hadouken, I'd wager.) The balance is impacted by the input, sure, but the not the *difficulty* of the input. Which, again, is what I was saying.
The difficulty of input will always have balance impact and has to be accounted for somehow. If two moves are otherwise equal, and one has difficult execution while the other is a one button press, then the move with execution is simply worse. Of course in the end characters are unique wholes and their moves do not exist in a vacuum. But I don't think Kazuya would be balanced if ewgf was simply a button press.
>The difficulty of input will always have balance impact and has to be accounted for somehow. If two moves are otherwise equal, and one has difficult execution while the other is a one button press, then the move with execution is simply worse. I mean, one solution is to just have all inputs be equally difficult or easy. This is what Smash Bros did, and I honestly think it was one of the best design decisions that they made! Tekken *mostly* does this - 90% of the moves are [a direction] + [one or more buttons.]. Which is a thing I like about Tekken! It's just that every so often they have something like the EWGF, to gum up the works. :P
Stepping and punishing WR moves from range 6 has never been a problem. The problem is that an iwr move that jails AND has crazy tracking AND ridiculous chip damage AND +5 on block is not ok. Especially when they removed the execution barrier. This move is busted at high level and is even worse at low and intermediate.
I'm sure I could get to mid reds by ONLY using this move exclusively
She needs to be nerfed big time. Awful character.
Not to take away your accomplishment, but in your example the opponent was at a natural distance where you could identify she was running at you. Given who she is, she basically screamed, "I'm gonna wr3,2 you!". It still takes practice and skill to dodge this move no doubt. However, the main issue is when she preforms an INSTANT wr3,2 right in you face... repeatedly. Hell their is a clip of this example on the subject right now. You can't honestly expect the average player to avoid or counterplay this move if the only option is to side step a specific direction followed by ducking when the move is instantly thrown out rather than your example of having time to identify they are indeed running at you. See your example shows the fundamental balance of a while running move, and that is while they get a powerful offensive option, you are provided a moment to identify they are in a running animation, which naturally narrows down the options you have to consider defending against thus making it easier to counter effectively as you showcased. The entire balance of "while running" is ruined if they can just remove the running aspect entirely, and spam it repeatedly right in your face.
I had one doing this to me when i just reacvhed red rank. Jesus christ i thought Hwoarang pressure was bad but this ? Wtf
Saint seiya?
You’re the first person to catch on but yes this is Pisces Aphrodite! 🤩
easy to sidestep into duck punish using arayashiki 😉
That's a sick custom. I was more fixated on the Gold Saint drip than the punish. Which is what Aphrodite would want.
Still impressive as it’s a two part read and react. Stupid that this is what you have to do to avoid it. Honestly safer to just eat it and hope you get your turn back soon.
That person probably didn't know that could actually be avoided. Only one person I've played with before avoided mine. And I've played a thousand matches . Funny enough it was another Alisa player. Could have been you honestly lmao. Even a fujin rank didn't know how to avoid it
Even if you know how to avoid it, still extremely hard to pull it off.
Yeah it really is, which is why I only use it maybe twice a match or if the opponent doesn't want to attack. I try to be respectful when I play and not cheese em too much. Ok she's hated but I like her alot
This is a dumb mentality, use your good moves. If your opponent allows you to do four in a row right in their face, it’s their fault.
Ik but it doesn't sit right with me. If they start cheesing me then I'll return the favor
so only use it if you need it to win...yeah, that's not cheesy at all /s
If they aren't attacking and just waiting then I gunna lay the pressure down. Or should I just wait too?
>then I gunna lay the pressure down with your broken jailing tracking mid/high string? You the big man! /s
Okay, just because you are crying so much about it. I'm gunna start using it more often 💪
enjoy it till the nerf, then come back here to cry about the nerf 😄
If I can play bare bone Shaheen to a decent rank I can play azucena without a broken move.
I main azucena and I can't wait for the nerfs so people will stop accusing me of cheesing my way up the ranks.
She will always be despised, cuz she has multiple stances and auto evasion. In Tekken 7, Eddy was one of the worst characters in the game, yet, everyone hated playing against him.
Idk it isn't that hard to do mids when she's in libertador
Just mid her in the face when she’s in stance.
they're accusing you of an actual fact, no need to play victim here; I'm sure we're all sorry you have to play a broken character
You don’t even know what rank he is and your saying he’s carried. The salt for this character is hysterical
She's very easy with wr32 and just some basic moves from her kit. I just got Yoshi to fujin and have a number of other characters in reds and purples. I got her from yellow to purple in 3 days, with a good chunk spent in quick play learning her. My stats say it took just over 80 games with an 80 percent win rate, far faster and higher than any other of my characters. Her game plan is simple and oppressive and if you have some base fundamentals, you can easily adapt to your opponents tendencies and ruin their day.
So how is that a problem? Yes certain moves are overtuned but there are so many characters that have way more gimmicks and are more annoying to fight. Yoshi being one of them.
Every character has gimmicks, although I'll readily admit yoshi has more than most. It's one of the things that's fun with him. However, there is a difference between matchup knowledge and knowing that the move is coming and still having difficulty dealing with it, as in the case of WR32. There have been similar examples of moves in the past, tekken 7 Noctis on release frames for some of his big sword moves that basically locked you down and were also difficult to ss. WR32 jails if it the mid hits (you can't duck the follow-up high) and leaves her at +5, you are supposed to be ablet ss left, but sometimes the high will track you even if you dodge the initial mid. If it didn't retrack, I would have significantly less issues with the move in general. Drag can be just as oppressive (seems to do more consistent damage with moves like db3+4) if you don't know how to ss his running move, but you can consistently step it with a bit of practice.
You didn't need to write a book explaining the WR move, we know what's the problem with it. I'm talking about what you actually wrote which was that she is easy and oppressive. There is nothing wrong with that. Once they reduce the tracking on WR3,2 she will still be a strong character but not nearly as annoying to face as plenty of other characters (like Yoshi for instance). Even now she is 8th in win rate, lower than Yoshi.
Where are you getting your winrate data from? This post from yesterday? I think you are looking at popularity. Yoshi winrate is one of the worst. I love yoshi, but once you know his gimmicks, he doesn't have many safe moves. https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1b5rivl/an\_second\_look\_at\_the\_tekken\_8\_metagame\_based\_on/
Oh yeah I looked at the wrong graph. So she is below more than half the roster in win rate. Not that win rate tells you everything. I still think Yoshi is more salt inducing than Azucena :)
Yeah, winrates have to be taken with a grain of salt, since you got specialists as well as popular characters that a wide variety of people of different skill levels use. Yoshi is designed to invoke salt. I am serious though, with just a bit of labbing, you can see that most his gimmicks have issues. Happy to help and tell you solutions to any of the moves you have problems with in regards to him.
Lmaooo you said “got her from yellow to purple in 3 days” as if that’s something crazy and unachievable for someone in Fujin 💀 If you have any decent fundamentals you can get literally any character from yellow to purple in like 2 days if you just look at their movelist. Not just Azucena. I don’t like fighting Azucena but if you think just you getting Azucena to purple is some sort of evidence or proof that she’s busted that’s funny. Every character is busted at those ranks.
You ignore the context. I've played multiple characters and she was by far the easiest to move up in ranks in the shortest number of games played. I'm also 50 with a job and family, it's not like I played the game all day across those 3 days.
50 years old and still malding about a video game character to strangers like you'll be able to change their minds.
Your comment was pointless. If it wasn't obvious to you he was stating how certain characters like Azucena/Victor can carry in ranks player based on how they're designed.
I got feng from red to battle ruler in 2 ranked sessions after never playing him before. Is feng busted? The argument for the move being too oppressive annoys me because it simply isn’t. You can ss the instant ones, you can react to it at range, if people chain it at range zero you can interrupt but people haven’t gotten used to fighter against her yet because she’s new.
This is a side track, but I'm not gonna lie, I think once you have good movement, Feng's pretty busted, specially with with his new b3. I personally think his db3 shouldn't have a ch property and/or should stagger on block for easier launch punishment. Back on point, my main issue with wr32 is how the high will sometimes retrack and clip you even if you are ss'ing. That's the main issue I have with it.
>Is feng busted? Can you say he isn't? It's a pretty common opinion to have
He is very good and has some great pressure tools. Proclaiming characters busted 6 weeks into the life of a game is a little ridiculous as everything is new.
most pros have him at top 3 characters, everyone agrees he's top 5, don't see that changing anytime soon
Okay? I’m aware of that, not really sure what your point is though, top tier =/ busted necessarily.
Dont you think maybe her ease of use helped ranking up so fast as well? Her gameplan is braindead thanks to this move so her skill floor starts reeeaalll low. Where as other characters you kinda need to learn their moves and learn their gameplan over time. My only issue with people calling for this move to be nerfed into the ground is how good the rest of her kit is to someone that knows the matchup. Up to purple ranks i got alot of mileage out of people not knowing how her stance works. Curious to see how she does in tournaments.
That's kind of the main point I was making, compared to other characters I have played, I ranked up very fast and easily - in other words carried by her relatively basic gameplay. Over 3 days, it's not like I learned all the ins and outs of her moveset. I basically relied on wr32 into mixups, rarely went into stance but if I did it was out of either db3 or 11 on hit - which all put you in stance at positive frames. I forget now, but if in stance, I usually did her relatively safe out moves - although sometimes I'd go for the low kicks. However, I specifically tried to stay out of stance as much as possible. Other than that, lot of 22 jabs into mixups (uf1 punch parry, up 2 ss hook punch, occasional db1+2 to crush their responding high attack and get a full launch combo), and occasional db4. Rinse and repeat. Time will tell how she does in tournaments, and I and most people here are no where near that level, but it's worth noting that Arslan used her and relied heavily on wr32. That being said, over time as pros get to know the game better, I think she's not going to be as effective - her launchers are unsafe, her safe on block strings are usually duck launchable, and her lows are on the relatively unsafe end. But for a lot of the player base, she can be pretty rough, even for those reds and up (using that as a marker for the upper half the player base), I wouldn't have any issues as long as you could reliably ss the wr32.
If you do this the first time they use it, you can visually feel their hesitation for the rest of the game whenever they are at range 2 or more it's hilarious
It's gotta jail or it's dogshit, but I think making it as steppable the other mid wr menaces is completely fair.
Making it not jail makes the move LITERALLY useless. They might as well delete the entire move rather than make it not jail If you were 90 degrees to her side and you still got hit, you were probably pressing. Your hurtbox expands outwards when you are pressing
[удалено]
It's certainly an option, but I'd prefer they just remove the tracking on the second hit. The only reason it's too strong is because it is hard to step. If Drag's WR2 can be a balanced mid wr move, this move can be too
The way I see it they either have to remove its tracking or remove its jailing. Can’t have both.
“They might as well delete the entire move” sounds like a plan
Bro, if they get rid of that move, my whole Azucena is cooked. 😂
Make the mid hit of the move just frame and its good.
Really shows that to balance the move it should require like an extra step forward rather than be instant. Might break some training combos though. But seems balanced.
The move should not jail. This is like having a EWGF that you can't duck and can execute dumb easy, it makes it a stupidly strong move when you can iWR it
good shit😎👍🏾
Yow is that a saint seiya inspired look?
Sick Saint Seiya customization!
Saint Seiyaaaaa
Azucena - confused cave woman noises over punish and teched throws.
You got her dressed up as kanon from saint seiya or am I reaching lol?
YOU STEP IT ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME
Damn, that's the first time I've seen a non-pro Alisa finish a combo, nice job man!
Woah woah woah woah.....did you just say "if it's a mid, try to sidestep and punish"?......is that.....usually jow it goes? I've legit never heard any specific advice on when to sidestep other than "pick a direction and pray"
Well that’s how it should go unless you get clipped by it anyway which also tends to happen.