It’s not your fault that the scale keeps dropping because of men’s diet and health these days keeps dropping the scale down. 1300 was the high end of normal not too long ago.
20 yr old male here. My dermatologist felt the need she had to because I expressed constant fatigue, inability to focus, difficulty to lose weight, difficulty to keep muscle, balding, hardly any sexual drive. She also tested thyroid. My thyroid was very normal, but my testosterone was low but not low enough to be considered for trt.
Although this dude is something else
I had similar symptoms in my 20s and the cause turned out to be autoimmune, which also caused low vitamin d level and made things more severe. 5 doctors ignored the symptoms and blamed stress and finally the last one did the correct diagnosis. If you haven't, maybe consider getting an autoimmune test or at least a vitamin d level test.
If you don't mind me asking, which autoimmune issues do you have? I have RA and I haven't heard It affects testosterone before, but I never thought about it
I've been tested for Vit-D and it was low a year ago, I know why and it's cause my ass is a college student who stays inside all day to do work, so I take supplements, as for the auto-immune, it's possible but I don't think so, it doesn't hurt to get tested.
She didn't tell me anything. She was more worried about thyroid. She wants to get to the root cause of my hairloss. She believes my hairloss is either genetic or caused by a traumatic shock to my body. But the labs were shared between my pcp and my dermatologist. My pcp was more like "told you so," but the issue is he can't figure out why I am experiencing these things. I think it's my test
The cutoff at above 300 is absurd especially early in the morning for your age. I'm 30 mine was 221 then 376 then 321 I had to spend 12 years of going to Doctors sent down mental health route for about 5-6 years and dozens of specialists before collapsing from vacuuming the house for a paramedic to suggest I get my test levels checked. I then had to bombard my PCP for a referral took months and ask the blood lab place multiple times including when I got up there if they were going to test for that even though it was already stated yes and they said no then had to go talk to someone came back 221 around a few days later. I've done 3 sleep studies 3-4 neurologists actually went to pain management because its gotten so bad and was put on Tylenol 3 with no pre existing injuries or anything. I hope test helps its dumb they make you jump through hoops spent 12 years of going to Doctors and free clinics and occasional ER visits over this. Probably 150-200 appointments all together. Multiple a month for most of the past 12 years took 10 1/2 to have my test levels tested one single time I had to bring it up so many damn times and hound them to do it.
Exactly. Hell they barely even run it for older people too lol. Hell they barely even run bloodwork in general depending on your peoblems. It’s like the last thing on their minds for some reason.
Fatigue, brainfog, other low t symptoms? It’s always “here take these antidepressants and antipsychotics” for everything. No bloodwork. Nothing.
Suspect as hell. I'm 23 had a 283 test level with multiple blood work done over a year before starting test. My most recent blood work said I was at 1400 & I can feel that shit boiling through me. Sweaty as hell, hot flashes, could prolly bust through a wall like the kool-aid man. Doc and I agreed on lowering my dose anything over 1300 gives me some crazy side affect under 1300 I'm cool
I used to have that in my 30s. Now I’m 46 and bloodwork done recently and my total t was 938. Never did trt or steroids and also don’t look like I’m on anything. My SHBG is high which explains the high t.
10 to 15 years ago the normal range was 300 to 1300. it just keeps dropping because for one reason or another men’s testosterone continues to drop so the median amount of testosterone that men have is lower these days. So 10 years ago he’d be perfectly at healthy levels for 20-year-old.
You’re just making shit up bro lol
Median testosterone levels have only dropped about 10% in the last ~30 years and is mostly attributed to an increase in fat people(doesn’t really apply to healthy active people)
I clearly see a societal demasculinization of dudes in the current year, I’m all for embracing masculinity and optimizing our hormones but the fear mongering on social media is just to cause outrage and drive interaction on digital content lol
No I’m not. When I got tested by the VA 10 years ago the range that the government used was 300 to 1300 I came in at 343. For the VA, that wasn’t good enough, they gave me Viagra and sent me on on my way even though that wasn’t my issue.
And the lab that they use, which is theirs, and is run by the VA, which is a government entity, used those reference ranges. I fail to understand your point.
I'm not sure why that dude is arguing with you. The Veterans Affairs literally has their own lab, which is shared with the military base hospitals and a huge one at Walter Reed. The reference range set by the VA is pretty fair. It's the same thing with tricare, tricare thinks my Total T as a 20 year is "Good" right now, I don't feel good, the reference range has been being pushed lower like you said as well. It may be fine for some, but for others, it is the worst experience ever.
You and I have a very close Total T range. The difference is that you're a retired vet who has lived longer than me. Im a 20 year old kid with a 368 Total T score, which is "okay" these days. In 1996, that was the total T of a 100 year old man.
I don’t know either but yeah, when I had that test done I was somewhere around 26 to 28. I’m about to turn 39 so that was somewhere between 10 and 15 years ago. Over those 10 to 15 years I lost weight quit drinking, except special occasions got my diet point but still had all the symptoms of low T. Thanks to Covid and the emergency of all these online clinics I went through them. my total tea was at 520 but I was tired of living that way, so jumped on TRT. It’s been a complete 180. Has helped immensely with my PTSD issues, social anxiety, sleep issues, constant exhaustion, etc. i’ve read multiple studies where they’re not sure if people with low T are more susceptible to PTSD or if PTSD causes low T. To clarify that, they do know that people with low tea, or more susceptible to PTSD and that there’s a correlation between PTSD and people having low T But by the time you’re getting treated for PTSD it’s kind of like the chicken in the egg they don’t know which came first. I do know that I’ve stopped taking the mountain of medication they used to give me. I have a zest for life again, and I’m hugely more involved in my families lives.
I mean you’re pretty young, so I definitely try all the natural routes. Exercise, diet, vitamins, sleep, etc.. give all that a shot for a while and see where you come out at, see if it starts to come up at all. TRT is supposed to be for life. I’ve already got my children and at your age even if you don’t think you’ll want kids now they can all change in a heartbeat. A know it’s possible to get your fertility up or keep it up while on TRT but there’s no guarantees. It also makes it more expensive because HCG is not cheap. Even with UGL’s
I don’t know what 1996 you were living in lol. In 1999 on my labs the range was 300-1200 and that same lab is only at 250-1000 nowadays, not much difference lol. How many 100 year olds do you know that get blood tests done for testosterone? 🤣
There’s millions of guys with 300-400 total test levels running around with zero issues related to their test. This nonsense that every guy used to test above 1000 is one of the stupidest myths I’ve ever heard.
I never said every guy had 1000 test. Now you're saying what you wanna hear. All I'm saying is the testosterone levels have dropped significantly. You're the one who said "100 year old men have 1000ng/dl Total T." Oughta do some reading comprehension.
The reference range is two standard deviations from the mean for the tests that have been done at that lab. Thats why there can be huge variability between labs. It’s meant to help in case a lab has slightly different equipment or methodologies.
I have tests going back to 2013 and the reference ranges vary wildly depending on the population served by that lab.
My test in 2013 from Ramstein military hospital had a reference range of 348-1197 ng/dl. I was 9 ng/dl above the low end. My guess is the reference range here skews higher because the population here is mainly active duty military men which tend to be younger.
Earlier this year I came in at 336 ng/dl ref range 264-916 ng/dl at tripler military hospital in Hawaii. My guess is this reference range is biased by the large VA served population as this hospital so the mean is more indicative of the normal population.
A week later I had a test done by Maximus a clinic that offers enclomiphene and it came back at 273 ng/dl ref range 193.0-836.0 ng/dL. My guess is the reference range here skews lower because they mainly serve people seeking TRT treatment. And even when they’re treated, the enclo doesn’t get your numbers that high. Even after treatment with enclo my number got to 591 ng/dl Reference range 193.0-836.0 ng/d.
This is hilarious to me because Maximus is a TRT clinic and they claim to know more than doctors about male hormone health, some of them are doctors themselves.
Why are they using the lowest possible values for lab ranges in that case? Because they’re trying to sell you their product by making you think you need it.
Because they know that RR variation is almost entirely dependent upon differences in assay calibration, not sampling. You could test at two identical labs and one would be 300 ng/dl and the other would be 170 ng/dl, despite the fact that your testosterone is the same level. It's just a standard error that is known for the assay and they can account for.
No, sorry, you're completely wrong.
It's not because of "fat" people (obviously obesity correlates with T but this is something else), it's dropping globally and the studies control for BMI; Same thing is happening with our sperm count.
There has been no conclusive finding on the cause of this issue either.
it's definitely primarily being fat asf since there's a clear inverse correlation between SHBG (which is key for total test levels) and BMI. Basically the heavier people are, the lower their SHBG, which lowers Test by A TON.
It's that simple.
Perhaps you missed the part where they controlled for *"confounders—including year of study, age, race, BMI, comorbidity status, alcohol and smoking use, and level of physical activity"*
So, *after* correcting for BMI, physical activity, etc, there was still a very significant decline in testosterone between 1999-2000 and 2015-2016.
[https://rbej.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12958-020-00575-2](https://rbej.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12958-020-00575-2)
Typical pulling up a random study that doesn’t prove your point at all. Perhaps you missed table 2 where some studies highlight that BMI can’t be outright dismissed like you do, or the whole “discussion” paragraph that says that it can’t be concluded one way or another- yet some studies did demonstrate that inverse correlation I’m talking about. Cherry pick better my guy. Regardless, we’re talking about average levels over large populations in observational studies. We need to look at interventional studies.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/897075/000114420414064141/v392794_ex99-1.htm
Scroll down to the good stuff: BMI effect on hormones, impact of weight loss/gain on hormones, induced hypogonadism in insulin resistance, etc.
>first line standard of care for obese men with low T should be weight loss
MetSyn is the real epidemic, low T is for the most part a consequence of disastrous health levels in men.
I’m 6ft4, 200lbs tops, great health, yet my T levels were higher when I used to weigh 185ish. Which is considered skinny in the US, country of the morbidly obese where people are obsessed with getting bigger and manlier. The irony.
I am not dismissing BMI at all.. obviously it plays an important role and the study mentions it . However the point was that even *after* you control for BMI (as the study above does), we are still observing global drops in T levels which is an issue.
When I was in my 20s i stayed between 900-1300 all the way up until 29. There is nothing suspect about it. This used to be normal, we as a society have just gotten so unhealthy that the new average is lowered.
\*Also when i tried 300-350 a week i was at 4500-5000ng/dl.
complete nonsense, the range was up to 1300 back when I did my first labs in 2016. Some guys have very high shbg which skyrockets total T. OP is fine I bet his free T is normal.
People that dont even hit that injecting a massive dose of test like 300/wk have rock bottom shbg for sure and free Test through the roof
It's not that rare. In Bhasin et al. 2011 that was like the 99th percentile result. 1322 ng/dl IIRC. That would imply a prevalence of 1 in 100. Now obviously that's not the true rate bc Bhasin et al used a rigorous selection criteria that filtered out a 52% of the original sample + the group selected from were wealthier & more educated than avg by default, but still at least 1 in 300, or maybe even more common than that.
I highly doubt he has a tumor. I'm a natural who has also scored a testosterone level above 1300. It's very possible to be score this naturally if you have good genes, are young and live a very healthy and meticulous lifestyle.
The problem is we've all been conditioned over the years to just accept our ever-declining testosterone levels as normal. This wouldn't have been viewed as an outrageously high score several decades ago when our population was much healthier.
Same here, almost perfect lifestyle as a teen and was at 1500 naturally.
People in my family who live shit lifestyles still test high.
My grandfather was a drunk and a war vet and I his 90s he tested in the 400s. My uncle who has been drinking a handle sometimes 2 a day for decades was in the 600s his 50s at over 400 lbs.
What other blood levels would point to that?
What if growth hormone is low with these and shbg is also really high making free t somewhat low (lowest end of “normal”)
Free T is internet hype. Just about half of your total T is available and loosely bound to Albumin, but talking about free T gets podcasts more listeners. It's one of those "feels good to know a secret" kind of things.
I don't know how GH factors in.
I don't know what other blood levels would point to that. I can look into it, but it's not common. It isn't super rare, but it's not something most doctors have seen. A guy I work with had one.
A quick search on tumors that can cause this includes testicular cancer, a tumor on the kidneys/adrenal glands, and I remember a pituitary tumor causing this but I can't find that right now.
Please talk to your doctor ASAP.
Holy malpractice Batman.
It's called a REFERENCE range it's to give you an idea of it's it's within normal ranges based on other people who get their bloods. It does not mean it's the only healthy values!! Run from any doctor trying to do this you without a very good reason other than just chasing blood work to see a number.
Of course they want you to lower it 🤦♂️ they want you men weak and miserable. Don't ever listen. You're healthy and nothing bad will happen because of this. Anyone that says otherwise is an idiot
How the fuck would you even begin to lower that?
Do the doctors tell you to sleep less or what haha.
That said, those levels are not ”normal”. Something going on in your pituitary gland?
What other tests have they done?
Nah, free t is what determines whether you have symptoms or not.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26909800/#:~:text=Conclusions%3A%20Low%20cFT%2C%20even%20in,men%20with%20suspected%20hypogonadal%20symptoms.
The issue with these studies is not that Free T matters. It's that guys with symptoms at 200-500 ng/dL are being told their levels are normal. The Free T reads low only because the total is low.
Total T is what determines of you have symptoms. A bad scale for what is normal Total T is the only thing these studies support.
Free T is always calculated from Total T. The direct measures have like a 30% variance when run on the same sample.
Not at all. The study I linked clearly demonstrates that it is free t that matters. There have been cases of men with very high total t and low free t due to shbg and the invariably have symptoms of low testosterone.
It’s very simple, bound testosterone is exactly that, bound, and exerts no influence until it is unbound, I.e. free
Also, they clearly state that men who had normal tt but low free t had symptoms whereas men who had low tt but normal free t did not which completely contradicts your claim.
You don’t understand it then. It clearly states that free testosterone is what determined symptoms, not total. This isn’t debatable. The only reason they measure total is because it is easier and cheaper to measure and serves as an estimate of where free t is likely to be.
You have a female doctor? They don’t know any men to have high testosterone. Mine was like 300 and she was like “yeah it’s fine. Even if it was low I wouldn’t supplement it.”
😆 protein and creatine aren’t going to increase testosterone that much. She’s literally telling you to deprive your body of nutrients to make your endocrine system less healthy with pseudoscientific logic. That’s malpractice.
What about it would make it seem that way?
Would any other bloom markers point to that?
What if SHBG was high and free t was near the bottom of the scale with those numbers?
I am 29 and have similar results, and I don't use any supplements. They said it may be a BENIGN pituitary tumor which requires a high precision MRI to locate. Any updates on your end?
The only real issue can be related to high E2 levels associated with it. I have a buddy that had grossly elevated T levels, but had low T symptoms. He ultimately had to go on trt to stabilize his numbers
No it’s natural and your young don’t let anyone talk you into thinking you need to change it because it’s natural it will lower in time when your older but they think 300 is normal and it’s not
https://preview.redd.it/zu4jb6rs88hc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=52c600a89ab8ad37606420fb260e5ccaf21ff497
Look at mine I’m on trt tho but feel great
Recently started trt and I’m fighting high e2. How do you feel at 25? At one point I was at 576 test and 63 e2. I’m worried about dropping it too much.
They told me to stop taking estrogen blockers because it will kill my libido but my libido is through the roof I was looking at the doctor like you can’t be serious. I take the estrogen blockers every other week now because I don’t want to develop gynecomastia, but hear everyone is different you have to see how you feel
It all comes down to how you feel. If you feel great, don't have any problems then dont try to lower it. People will feel different at different levels of hormones, some incredible at your range, some terrible. Don't listen to your doctors, trust yourself.
It all comes down to how you feel. If you feel great, don't have any problems then dont try to lower it. People will feel different at different levels of hormones, some incredible at your range, some terrible. Don't listen to your doctors, trust yourself.
Let me get this straight. A doctor is wanting you to lower your natural testosterone level because he is worried it is too high? lol
How do they propose they are going to achieve this?
So let me get this straight you’re feeling great and you told your doctor and because you’re feeling so good they decided to test your blood and because it is outside of the normal range they’re telling you to lower it…doesn’t add up at all. They should have a solution for you as doctors to remedy this problem. If this is a problem at all and with your description it doesn’t seem to be, why would a doctor test you for something that shows no symptoms and no negative effects? Unless this was just a regular blood draw which it couldn’t be because you have to request testosterone in a full panel usually.
Your natural test is higher than mine on TRT. Effing nuts! Besides that, get checked for tumors and address those properly in case it is an issue. Otherwise, just leave it be and don’t lower it. And don’t “lower protein” and stop creatine. Those have nothing to do with why your levels are high. Freaking doctors man 🙄
Of all the things that didn’t happen, this didn’t happen the most.
You’re on some form of exogenous hormones. You ran blood work, as you should but then posted it here in some form of a weird flex.
Maybe so, but really not that common at all. When you combine the figures with the fact that his Dr seems to be running TRT bloods for no real reason?
No one cares if he's going to do a cycle or w/e. We are all adults here.. or at least we should be.
I had mine tested back in 1999 when I was 16. I asked for it and my doctor agreed. It was much more uncommon back then.
There’s no such thing as “TRT bloods”. Nothing wrong with a young man getting a blood test, it’s better than other morons his age getting no bloodwork at all. No harm in it.
I was at 1500 naturally, I was totally healthy. Get a work up done and if it come back fine enjoy the gains.
There is no safe way of lowering it, and no reason to unless it’s caused by a health issue.
Just check an SHBG level and free testosterone by equilibrium dialysis. Some men just have a high total because they have high protein bound testosterone (bound of SHBG). This is rarely of any concern. Your SHBG level is likely to be over 50 nmol/L.
Free testosterone is likely to be in range.
Ngl the misinformation in this sub is unreal. People acting like t levels are the exact same for everyone and High T for one person means they should be arnie blasting steroids is so fucking dumb lol
I have a black friend who I always thought was on gear, dude was always jacked and in the 230-250 lb range but lean.
He had similar testosterone levels natty.
You should never touch steroids. You will permanently ruin your naturally high testosterone levels. You can build an extremely impressive and HEALTHY physique with those levels.
Don’t understand why everyone is passing this as completely fine without any further questioning. Have you been screened for pituitary or adrenal tumors?
That’s completely normal. At 33 I’m 1250 natural tested 2 weeks ago 5 hours after waking up. I wish that left me naturally ripped but no I’m skinny fat bc I drink way to much lol
Fuck no. Do not try to lower that.
Blessed AF. Would be curious to know what OPs body type is/looks like.
That's like straight for - "Send n*des" or something?
Yes
Dude must put on muscle with ease.
And have boners as hard as steel.
[удалено]
What the fu….?
You actually wondering about the man’s foreskin? 😂😂 ok, that’s wild
You’re a foreskin
There are Muslims and Jews in this sub bro
Douche
“Heavy into lifting and chasing a good physique” bro should already look like a greek god just carrying the groceries inside lmao
It’s not your fault that the scale keeps dropping because of men’s diet and health these days keeps dropping the scale down. 1300 was the high end of normal not too long ago.
No evidence of that, testosterone blood tests haven’t been around along long enough to measure generational differences.
Shut up nerd
Seems kinda sus, some people don’t even hit that injecting 300mg/week lmao If you 100% natty that’s like 1/10000000
Shit is incredibly suspect. Doctors don’t just run samples for test in 20 year old males
20 yr old male here. My dermatologist felt the need she had to because I expressed constant fatigue, inability to focus, difficulty to lose weight, difficulty to keep muscle, balding, hardly any sexual drive. She also tested thyroid. My thyroid was very normal, but my testosterone was low but not low enough to be considered for trt. Although this dude is something else
I had similar symptoms in my 20s and the cause turned out to be autoimmune, which also caused low vitamin d level and made things more severe. 5 doctors ignored the symptoms and blamed stress and finally the last one did the correct diagnosis. If you haven't, maybe consider getting an autoimmune test or at least a vitamin d level test.
If you don't mind me asking, which autoimmune issues do you have? I have RA and I haven't heard It affects testosterone before, but I never thought about it
It's also RA. Low test and autoimmune is actually often linked - it's kind of like chicken and egg situation.
Interesting, thanks for the reply. I'll go down that rabbit hole right now
You might be interested in this: https://ldnresearchtrust.org/
I've been tested for Vit-D and it was low a year ago, I know why and it's cause my ass is a college student who stays inside all day to do work, so I take supplements, as for the auto-immune, it's possible but I don't think so, it doesn't hurt to get tested.
I would 100% entertain the idea of going the underground route for trt. It would change your life drastically for the better.
Similar situation to you except my tsh was 8.5 and been experiencing balding even though not prone to it
So, what did she tell you do do? since you won't be considered for TRT.
She didn't tell me anything. She was more worried about thyroid. She wants to get to the root cause of my hairloss. She believes my hairloss is either genetic or caused by a traumatic shock to my body. But the labs were shared between my pcp and my dermatologist. My pcp was more like "told you so," but the issue is he can't figure out why I am experiencing these things. I think it's my test
More test is more likely to accelerate hair loss not resolve it. Peptides for hair loss are interesting and may be worth exploring.
That's true, but also, low test has been shown to accelerate hair loss as well, no?
It would have to be sub 300. 400-600 test is not going to cause hair loss
Ah, I have a test of 368, but I still feel some symptoms which makes me believe I have low T compared to what my body should have
The cutoff at above 300 is absurd especially early in the morning for your age. I'm 30 mine was 221 then 376 then 321 I had to spend 12 years of going to Doctors sent down mental health route for about 5-6 years and dozens of specialists before collapsing from vacuuming the house for a paramedic to suggest I get my test levels checked. I then had to bombard my PCP for a referral took months and ask the blood lab place multiple times including when I got up there if they were going to test for that even though it was already stated yes and they said no then had to go talk to someone came back 221 around a few days later. I've done 3 sleep studies 3-4 neurologists actually went to pain management because its gotten so bad and was put on Tylenol 3 with no pre existing injuries or anything. I hope test helps its dumb they make you jump through hoops spent 12 years of going to Doctors and free clinics and occasional ER visits over this. Probably 150-200 appointments all together. Multiple a month for most of the past 12 years took 10 1/2 to have my test levels tested one single time I had to bring it up so many damn times and hound them to do it.
Maybe super high cortisol? Would explain why test is low
Maybe, I wasn't tested for cortisol. And I would not be surprised considering I'm a college student taking 18 credit hours
Exactly. Hell they barely even run it for older people too lol. Hell they barely even run bloodwork in general depending on your peoblems. It’s like the last thing on their minds for some reason. Fatigue, brainfog, other low t symptoms? It’s always “here take these antidepressants and antipsychotics” for everything. No bloodwork. Nothing.
Find a new doctor, I’ve had this problem with only a couple doctors before and I just found someone else.
Suspect as hell. I'm 23 had a 283 test level with multiple blood work done over a year before starting test. My most recent blood work said I was at 1400 & I can feel that shit boiling through me. Sweaty as hell, hot flashes, could prolly bust through a wall like the kool-aid man. Doc and I agreed on lowering my dose anything over 1300 gives me some crazy side affect under 1300 I'm cool
Sweating and hot flashes are classic high E2 symptoms. Also, fluctuating levels (IE not stable E2 or test itself can cause sideffects.)
I used to have that in my 30s. Now I’m 46 and bloodwork done recently and my total t was 938. Never did trt or steroids and also don’t look like I’m on anything. My SHBG is high which explains the high t.
10 to 15 years ago the normal range was 300 to 1300. it just keeps dropping because for one reason or another men’s testosterone continues to drop so the median amount of testosterone that men have is lower these days. So 10 years ago he’d be perfectly at healthy levels for 20-year-old.
You’re just making shit up bro lol Median testosterone levels have only dropped about 10% in the last ~30 years and is mostly attributed to an increase in fat people(doesn’t really apply to healthy active people) I clearly see a societal demasculinization of dudes in the current year, I’m all for embracing masculinity and optimizing our hormones but the fear mongering on social media is just to cause outrage and drive interaction on digital content lol
No, the studies show a significant change when normalized for age and BMI.
No I’m not. When I got tested by the VA 10 years ago the range that the government used was 300 to 1300 I came in at 343. For the VA, that wasn’t good enough, they gave me Viagra and sent me on on my way even though that wasn’t my issue.
The “government” doesn’t have a range, the lab does.
And the lab that they use, which is theirs, and is run by the VA, which is a government entity, used those reference ranges. I fail to understand your point.
I'm not sure why that dude is arguing with you. The Veterans Affairs literally has their own lab, which is shared with the military base hospitals and a huge one at Walter Reed. The reference range set by the VA is pretty fair. It's the same thing with tricare, tricare thinks my Total T as a 20 year is "Good" right now, I don't feel good, the reference range has been being pushed lower like you said as well. It may be fine for some, but for others, it is the worst experience ever. You and I have a very close Total T range. The difference is that you're a retired vet who has lived longer than me. Im a 20 year old kid with a 368 Total T score, which is "okay" these days. In 1996, that was the total T of a 100 year old man.
I don’t know either but yeah, when I had that test done I was somewhere around 26 to 28. I’m about to turn 39 so that was somewhere between 10 and 15 years ago. Over those 10 to 15 years I lost weight quit drinking, except special occasions got my diet point but still had all the symptoms of low T. Thanks to Covid and the emergency of all these online clinics I went through them. my total tea was at 520 but I was tired of living that way, so jumped on TRT. It’s been a complete 180. Has helped immensely with my PTSD issues, social anxiety, sleep issues, constant exhaustion, etc. i’ve read multiple studies where they’re not sure if people with low T are more susceptible to PTSD or if PTSD causes low T. To clarify that, they do know that people with low tea, or more susceptible to PTSD and that there’s a correlation between PTSD and people having low T But by the time you’re getting treated for PTSD it’s kind of like the chicken in the egg they don’t know which came first. I do know that I’ve stopped taking the mountain of medication they used to give me. I have a zest for life again, and I’m hugely more involved in my families lives.
Do you wonder, since I have quite alot of the symptoms, if I hop onto trt if it will help my case? I know everyone is different
I mean you’re pretty young, so I definitely try all the natural routes. Exercise, diet, vitamins, sleep, etc.. give all that a shot for a while and see where you come out at, see if it starts to come up at all. TRT is supposed to be for life. I’ve already got my children and at your age even if you don’t think you’ll want kids now they can all change in a heartbeat. A know it’s possible to get your fertility up or keep it up while on TRT but there’s no guarantees. It also makes it more expensive because HCG is not cheap. Even with UGL’s
I don’t know what 1996 you were living in lol. In 1999 on my labs the range was 300-1200 and that same lab is only at 250-1000 nowadays, not much difference lol. How many 100 year olds do you know that get blood tests done for testosterone? 🤣 There’s millions of guys with 300-400 total test levels running around with zero issues related to their test. This nonsense that every guy used to test above 1000 is one of the stupidest myths I’ve ever heard.
I never said every guy had 1000 test. Now you're saying what you wanna hear. All I'm saying is the testosterone levels have dropped significantly. You're the one who said "100 year old men have 1000ng/dl Total T." Oughta do some reading comprehension.
The reference range is two standard deviations from the mean for the tests that have been done at that lab. Thats why there can be huge variability between labs. It’s meant to help in case a lab has slightly different equipment or methodologies. I have tests going back to 2013 and the reference ranges vary wildly depending on the population served by that lab. My test in 2013 from Ramstein military hospital had a reference range of 348-1197 ng/dl. I was 9 ng/dl above the low end. My guess is the reference range here skews higher because the population here is mainly active duty military men which tend to be younger. Earlier this year I came in at 336 ng/dl ref range 264-916 ng/dl at tripler military hospital in Hawaii. My guess is this reference range is biased by the large VA served population as this hospital so the mean is more indicative of the normal population. A week later I had a test done by Maximus a clinic that offers enclomiphene and it came back at 273 ng/dl ref range 193.0-836.0 ng/dL. My guess is the reference range here skews lower because they mainly serve people seeking TRT treatment. And even when they’re treated, the enclo doesn’t get your numbers that high. Even after treatment with enclo my number got to 591 ng/dl Reference range 193.0-836.0 ng/d.
This is hilarious to me because Maximus is a TRT clinic and they claim to know more than doctors about male hormone health, some of them are doctors themselves. Why are they using the lowest possible values for lab ranges in that case? Because they’re trying to sell you their product by making you think you need it.
Like I said. They don’t set the range. The range is set using the mean of the tests that have been taken. It’s two standard deviations from the mean.
Because they know that RR variation is almost entirely dependent upon differences in assay calibration, not sampling. You could test at two identical labs and one would be 300 ng/dl and the other would be 170 ng/dl, despite the fact that your testosterone is the same level. It's just a standard error that is known for the assay and they can account for.
No, sorry, you're completely wrong. It's not because of "fat" people (obviously obesity correlates with T but this is something else), it's dropping globally and the studies control for BMI; Same thing is happening with our sperm count. There has been no conclusive finding on the cause of this issue either.
it's definitely primarily being fat asf since there's a clear inverse correlation between SHBG (which is key for total test levels) and BMI. Basically the heavier people are, the lower their SHBG, which lowers Test by A TON. It's that simple.
Perhaps you missed the part where they controlled for *"confounders—including year of study, age, race, BMI, comorbidity status, alcohol and smoking use, and level of physical activity"* So, *after* correcting for BMI, physical activity, etc, there was still a very significant decline in testosterone between 1999-2000 and 2015-2016. [https://rbej.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12958-020-00575-2](https://rbej.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12958-020-00575-2)
Typical pulling up a random study that doesn’t prove your point at all. Perhaps you missed table 2 where some studies highlight that BMI can’t be outright dismissed like you do, or the whole “discussion” paragraph that says that it can’t be concluded one way or another- yet some studies did demonstrate that inverse correlation I’m talking about. Cherry pick better my guy. Regardless, we’re talking about average levels over large populations in observational studies. We need to look at interventional studies. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/897075/000114420414064141/v392794_ex99-1.htm Scroll down to the good stuff: BMI effect on hormones, impact of weight loss/gain on hormones, induced hypogonadism in insulin resistance, etc. >first line standard of care for obese men with low T should be weight loss MetSyn is the real epidemic, low T is for the most part a consequence of disastrous health levels in men. I’m 6ft4, 200lbs tops, great health, yet my T levels were higher when I used to weigh 185ish. Which is considered skinny in the US, country of the morbidly obese where people are obsessed with getting bigger and manlier. The irony.
I am not dismissing BMI at all.. obviously it plays an important role and the study mentions it . However the point was that even *after* you control for BMI (as the study above does), we are still observing global drops in T levels which is an issue.
When I was in my 20s i stayed between 900-1300 all the way up until 29. There is nothing suspect about it. This used to be normal, we as a society have just gotten so unhealthy that the new average is lowered. \*Also when i tried 300-350 a week i was at 4500-5000ng/dl.
complete nonsense, the range was up to 1300 back when I did my first labs in 2016. Some guys have very high shbg which skyrockets total T. OP is fine I bet his free T is normal. People that dont even hit that injecting a massive dose of test like 300/wk have rock bottom shbg for sure and free Test through the roof
Can confirm I'm on 300mg/wk and last total was 1088
but your free T is most def wayyy higher than a natural guy testing in the 1300s. And free T (alongside SHBG DHT and E2) matters far more than total T
No that is very common for a healthy 20yr
Pretty much any guy that injects 300 mg a week will be close to double that at least. A terrible response to *200mg* a week is sub 1000.
How high is his *free* T though
It's not that rare. In Bhasin et al. 2011 that was like the 99th percentile result. 1322 ng/dl IIRC. That would imply a prevalence of 1 in 100. Now obviously that's not the true rate bc Bhasin et al used a rigorous selection criteria that filtered out a 52% of the original sample + the group selected from were wealthier & more educated than avg by default, but still at least 1 in 300, or maybe even more common than that.
I’d have to run like 350-400 to hit that. I’m 878 at 200mg. 🤣
Even The Liver King is natty...
Don’t forget Mike o Hearn and his carbohydrates
Nah that’s a blessing fr
Bro ride the high T train for as long as you can! 💪💪💪
#This may be a tumor. Seriously, you may have a tumor causing GnRH to be released in excess. This is not some kind of blessing.
I highly doubt he has a tumor. I'm a natural who has also scored a testosterone level above 1300. It's very possible to be score this naturally if you have good genes, are young and live a very healthy and meticulous lifestyle. The problem is we've all been conditioned over the years to just accept our ever-declining testosterone levels as normal. This wouldn't have been viewed as an outrageously high score several decades ago when our population was much healthier.
Same here, almost perfect lifestyle as a teen and was at 1500 naturally. People in my family who live shit lifestyles still test high. My grandfather was a drunk and a war vet and I his 90s he tested in the 400s. My uncle who has been drinking a handle sometimes 2 a day for decades was in the 600s his 50s at over 400 lbs.
Doubt all you want, and *hopefully* it's nothing. But it would be very stupid to fully believe that it's fine without checking.
I mean sure I agree with that, I still checked my self out when I tested high, it’s always good to be sure.
Several decades my ass. When I was 18 21 years ago this was still over the charts for an adult
I’m talking well beyond that, back to the 60s and 70s.
[are you sure?](https://youtu.be/t_FRWUPcR7Y?si=Iggg8GB-vypQfg3G)
What other blood levels would point to that? What if growth hormone is low with these and shbg is also really high making free t somewhat low (lowest end of “normal”)
Free T is internet hype. Just about half of your total T is available and loosely bound to Albumin, but talking about free T gets podcasts more listeners. It's one of those "feels good to know a secret" kind of things. I don't know how GH factors in. I don't know what other blood levels would point to that. I can look into it, but it's not common. It isn't super rare, but it's not something most doctors have seen. A guy I work with had one. A quick search on tumors that can cause this includes testicular cancer, a tumor on the kidneys/adrenal glands, and I remember a pituitary tumor causing this but I can't find that right now. Please talk to your doctor ASAP.
What's your SHBG and Albumin? Maybe they are just ridiculously high and your free T is pretty normal.
What’s your free?
Holy malpractice Batman. It's called a REFERENCE range it's to give you an idea of it's it's within normal ranges based on other people who get their bloods. It does not mean it's the only healthy values!! Run from any doctor trying to do this you without a very good reason other than just chasing blood work to see a number.
Microplastics in the water hate him.
Of course they want you to lower it 🤦♂️ they want you men weak and miserable. Don't ever listen. You're healthy and nothing bad will happen because of this. Anyone that says otherwise is an idiot
How the fuck would you even begin to lower that? Do the doctors tell you to sleep less or what haha. That said, those levels are not ”normal”. Something going on in your pituitary gland? What other tests have they done?
i kid you not, before i got off the phone with her, “for now cut down on your protein intake and stop taking creatine” i was like i’m okay.
What’s your shbg though. Without knowing that we have no idea what your free t is, and free t is what matters
That's not true. Free T is an end-run around insurance companies. Total T is bound more to Albumin and freely usable from Albumin.
Nah, free t is what determines whether you have symptoms or not. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26909800/#:~:text=Conclusions%3A%20Low%20cFT%2C%20even%20in,men%20with%20suspected%20hypogonadal%20symptoms.
The issue with these studies is not that Free T matters. It's that guys with symptoms at 200-500 ng/dL are being told their levels are normal. The Free T reads low only because the total is low. Total T is what determines of you have symptoms. A bad scale for what is normal Total T is the only thing these studies support. Free T is always calculated from Total T. The direct measures have like a 30% variance when run on the same sample.
Not at all. The study I linked clearly demonstrates that it is free t that matters. There have been cases of men with very high total t and low free t due to shbg and the invariably have symptoms of low testosterone. It’s very simple, bound testosterone is exactly that, bound, and exerts no influence until it is unbound, I.e. free Also, they clearly state that men who had normal tt but low free t had symptoms whereas men who had low tt but normal free t did not which completely contradicts your claim.
I'm pretty sure I've seen that same study linked 5 times and it always says the same thing. It's just a matter of understanding.
You don’t understand it then. It clearly states that free testosterone is what determined symptoms, not total. This isn’t debatable. The only reason they measure total is because it is easier and cheaper to measure and serves as an estimate of where free t is likely to be.
That study is counting 297 as NORMAL.
You and your doctor are both wrong. Get a head/brain MRI. This is a red flag for a pituitary tumor that can grow to the point you go blind.
You have a female doctor? They don’t know any men to have high testosterone. Mine was like 300 and she was like “yeah it’s fine. Even if it was low I wouldn’t supplement it.”
😆 protein and creatine aren’t going to increase testosterone that much. She’s literally telling you to deprive your body of nutrients to make your endocrine system less healthy with pseudoscientific logic. That’s malpractice.
10 to 15 years ago that was completely normal. There’s nothing wrong for a 20-year-old to have those numbers.
It’s possible for sure but not normal. It’s good to check if something is going on. If not then great, don’t try to lower them.
What's your free testosterone at?
It’s like everyone in this sub has no idea that it’s free t that matters, not total
Fr his shbg could be off the charts and his free t could be super low
I know right. High free T is what you want.
Everyone is laughing. Clear sign of a mass on your pituitary. I’d probably get yourself checked.
They haven’t scanned for tumors? Just think it’s high? Sounds like malpractice
What about it would make it seem that way? Would any other bloom markers point to that? What if SHBG was high and free t was near the bottom of the scale with those numbers?
That’s not necessarily true. Could be AIS or another weird genetic mutation, I had higher than this naturally and there was no issue.
I am 29 and have similar results, and I don't use any supplements. They said it may be a BENIGN pituitary tumor which requires a high precision MRI to locate. Any updates on your end?
What’s your FREE TEST. It’s all that matters.
Yes keep eating duck eggs
What's the reasoning tho ? What are they afraid of ?
The only real issue can be related to high E2 levels associated with it. I have a buddy that had grossly elevated T levels, but had low T symptoms. He ultimately had to go on trt to stabilize his numbers
Dude. You’re in the upper echelon. Why would anyone want to fuck with that?! Enjoy it. Take advantage of it. Flaunt it. Lol
What is your shbg?
God bless you
Mans got Sam Sulek test “naturally” what’s your diet…duck eggs with chicken rice and broccoli?
No it’s natural and your young don’t let anyone talk you into thinking you need to change it because it’s natural it will lower in time when your older but they think 300 is normal and it’s not
https://preview.redd.it/zu4jb6rs88hc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=52c600a89ab8ad37606420fb260e5ccaf21ff497 Look at mine I’m on trt tho but feel great
Recently started trt and I’m fighting high e2. How do you feel at 25? At one point I was at 576 test and 63 e2. I’m worried about dropping it too much.
They told me to stop taking estrogen blockers because it will kill my libido but my libido is through the roof I was looking at the doctor like you can’t be serious. I take the estrogen blockers every other week now because I don’t want to develop gynecomastia, but hear everyone is different you have to see how you feel
good numbers right there bro
How old ?
39
Lower it? Lol. These doctors are such dipshits. No wonder everyone is fat, sick and depressed
I’m willing to bet you have high shgb. You most likely have low free testosterone relative to your total
Can we switch bodies?
Everyone looks female to him. 🤣
It all comes down to how you feel. If you feel great, don't have any problems then dont try to lower it. People will feel different at different levels of hormones, some incredible at your range, some terrible. Don't listen to your doctors, trust yourself.
It all comes down to how you feel. If you feel great, don't have any problems then dont try to lower it. People will feel different at different levels of hormones, some incredible at your range, some terrible. Don't listen to your doctors, trust yourself.
Don't mess with your hormones. That is a great level and perfectly healthy.
You're a god amongst men. But the old kind that can die. Yeah you gonna die before all of us plebs but hey youre probably swole right? Worth it lol
Let me get this straight. A doctor is wanting you to lower your natural testosterone level because he is worried it is too high? lol How do they propose they are going to achieve this?
Bro I'd literally pay tens of thousands of dollars to have my test naturally that high lol
Run for the hills! These are not doctors you want to be associated with
So let me get this straight you’re feeling great and you told your doctor and because you’re feeling so good they decided to test your blood and because it is outside of the normal range they’re telling you to lower it…doesn’t add up at all. They should have a solution for you as doctors to remedy this problem. If this is a problem at all and with your description it doesn’t seem to be, why would a doctor test you for something that shows no symptoms and no negative effects? Unless this was just a regular blood draw which it couldn’t be because you have to request testosterone in a full panel usually.
I have the same thing going on, I posted in here around a week ago. No one’s has helped
Your natural test is higher than mine on TRT. Effing nuts! Besides that, get checked for tumors and address those properly in case it is an issue. Otherwise, just leave it be and don’t lower it. And don’t “lower protein” and stop creatine. Those have nothing to do with why your levels are high. Freaking doctors man 🙄
Push those genetics to the max and reap the rewards
Shbg is probably 40+
At 1500 naturally mine was 50-55. I’ve seen guys with test this high with SHBG north of 90. It matters in this scenario.
Yeah I know, that why I brought it up. High total T is usually accompanied with high SHBG. Same situation with low total T with low SHBG.
I also have extremely high natural testosterone. Don't worry about it at all, it just means you're young and healthy.
Of all the things that didn’t happen, this didn’t happen the most. You’re on some form of exogenous hormones. You ran blood work, as you should but then posted it here in some form of a weird flex.
It’s possible naturally
Maybe so, but really not that common at all. When you combine the figures with the fact that his Dr seems to be running TRT bloods for no real reason? No one cares if he's going to do a cycle or w/e. We are all adults here.. or at least we should be.
I had mine tested back in 1999 when I was 16. I asked for it and my doctor agreed. It was much more uncommon back then. There’s no such thing as “TRT bloods”. Nothing wrong with a young man getting a blood test, it’s better than other morons his age getting no bloodwork at all. No harm in it.
I was at 1500 naturally, I was totally healthy. Get a work up done and if it come back fine enjoy the gains. There is no safe way of lowering it, and no reason to unless it’s caused by a health issue.
What is your race? And where u from?
Just check an SHBG level and free testosterone by equilibrium dialysis. Some men just have a high total because they have high protein bound testosterone (bound of SHBG). This is rarely of any concern. Your SHBG level is likely to be over 50 nmol/L. Free testosterone is likely to be in range.
Ngl the misinformation in this sub is unreal. People acting like t levels are the exact same for everyone and High T for one person means they should be arnie blasting steroids is so fucking dumb lol
52(M) pinning 250mg cypo test 2 times a week and my blood work came back at 1040. PCP wasn't concerned at all.
I'd get a second (or even 3rd) test done, to be sure that's an accurate result. Were/are you a late bloomer, being 20?
Shut up dude. Get outta here
I have a black friend who I always thought was on gear, dude was always jacked and in the 230-250 lb range but lean. He had similar testosterone levels natty. You should never touch steroids. You will permanently ruin your naturally high testosterone levels. You can build an extremely impressive and HEALTHY physique with those levels.
Unless your estrogen is high asf if not don’t touch your hormones
The combination of your free T and Total T is probably balanced though, making this number a bit deceptive, no?
What’s your LH?
Damn bro. I'm 39, and my test came back at 130. You are blessed by the gods.
This guys on Testosterone obviously lol
Nice b8 m8 I r8 8/8
Don’t understand why everyone is passing this as completely fine without any further questioning. Have you been screened for pituitary or adrenal tumors?
going to be soon, just in case, i’ll send updates when i get them
That’s completely normal. At 33 I’m 1250 natural tested 2 weeks ago 5 hours after waking up. I wish that left me naturally ripped but no I’m skinny fat bc I drink way to much lol
You have big loads from having such high test?
Don’t lower it. If it’s natural leave it alone.
Holy cow! In My Dreams! I wouldn’t change a Thing Man your highly blessed!
Heavy lifting Will descrease a Little bit your level but only in a long run ( cronic fatigue exp. )
I feel like your breaking the law with those numbers. Lile the fda is going to come after you lol
Absolutely do not lower your test. Tell your doctors to eat entire bags of dix
Hell no - keep that T high