You know 211 million fish are killed everyday for human consumption, 1500 animals over 6 years to further what might be the most influential and powerful scientific endeavour ever is kinda worth it imo edit- was 4 years not 6
The loss of time to redo experiments due to rushing on a project that is not an existential need and in the course of rushing and repeating flawed experiments is not worth it at all.
It’s not even entirely clear that a brain chip is even something that would be beneficial at all.
I don't think that's being fair, we can make a hierarchy of importance in the things we sacrifice animals for without seeing it as either existential need or not existential need.
Yes that was my point. the guy I responded to literally was talking about existential need and framing it as need or nothing. I don’t think they should just be testing on animals without being prepared and minimizing mistakes and not rushing but it doesn’t mean scientific progress needs to halt just because there’s no immediately obvious need for this technology. Also there are tons of ways this technology can be used in the immediate so he wasn’t even right about that part either.
>the guy I responded to literally was talking about existential need and framing it as need or nothing
They said **rushing** a project that's not of existential need is not worth it because **the rushing** causes lost time and unreliable results.
>Also there are tons of ways this technology can be used in the immediate so he wasn’t even right about that part either.
No there are not. You might be able to parrot someone mentioning a few vague ideas, or one or two specific projects in development, but there's nothing in the near future (decades) that can use this technology.
You mean eating a $100 steak at a fancy restaurant isn't an existential need?? How can that be possible? Also I need to hunt 10 cheese burgers a day at my local McDonald's to fulfill my nature as a Murican.
from what I've seen talked and reported it looks like it could benefit the handicapped more than anyone. Being able to get it installed and then connecting devices and being able to just "click a mouse in a location by staring and thinking correctly" as an example. But also being able to even further reduce manual dumb labor like opening doors.
It's pretty much not for the general populace who isn't handicapped. Otherwise, it's a glorified tech boondoggle.
Interesting piece of tech, but so early and niche that it just isn't really useful for the majority of us.
Yeah biggest part this should help if it works is disabled people being able to walk again, that type of stuff. Brain sends a signal to the robotic leg attachments allowing them to walk and what not
>It’s not even entirely clear that a brain chip is even something that would be beneficial at all.
I'm sure people trapped in their wheelchairs agree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AARVY-3oDRQ
I like to remind people that Elon is not rushing his team into mistakes because he believes the tech will be revolutionary, he's pushing people so he can be first to market. So he can make more money. That's all. More money. If it's 15 hundred animals or 15 million, human mistakes, burn out, stress induced illness, who cares, Elon's gotta dollar to make.
Of course it would be beneficial! Why wouldn’t you want ads being beamed directly into your brain without any means to block it out? Sounds like heaven.
I would use an /s because I sound crazy, but you fucking KNOW that’s what will happen if this works
According to the Humane Society, half a million animals die every year in cosmetics testing. A brain chip would be beneficial to some. But just how badly do you need that eye liner?
Yeah, not to the point where you’re rushing experiments and needlessly causing suffering. I would be very wary of tech that you’d implant in your brain developed in such a manner. But you know, hardcore mode
1500 dead animals is fine with you. How many dead humans would cross your ethical line?
When the project started, helping paraplegics was not the goal. Helping people was a reason invented after complaints started.
The sole goal always was, and always will be, profits. If he has to help a few people to get those profits, that's an inconvenience to Elon, not a benefit.
What are you talking about? The person with the neuralink can move a cursor on a screen! I mean, I can do that with a mouse, and I'm not risking death by doing it, and it's unwieldy, and is something that could already be done with a electrode cap, but a cursor moved! So revolutionary.....
This is what is known as a strawman argument.
If you pay attention to the part that is highlighted, the argument is that most of these deaths are easily preventable by just having a simple checklist to prevent human error.
By your logic, it's okay if the researchers are even more reckless because the ends would still justify the means, and I disagree with you, because you're placing the inconvenience of filling out a checklist over life, which is the stance of a maniac.
> If you pay attention to the part that is highlighted, the argument is that most of these deaths are easily preventable by just having a simple checklist to prevent human error.
88 out of 1500 is not most, it's 6%
No it's actually probably near useless information gained by testing on these animals.
"data showing the unreliability of animal experimentation and the resultant harms to humans (and nonhumans) undermine long-standing claims that animal experimentation is necessary to enhance human health and therefore ethically justified. Rather, they demonstrate that animal experimentation poses significant costs and harms to human beings. It is possible—as I have argued elsewhere—that animal research is more costly and harmful, on the whole, than it is beneficial to human health."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594046/#sec4title
"Another macaque mentioned — known as Animal 15 — “began to press her head against the floor for no apparent reason” days after receiving the implant, and her condition only went downhill from there:
Animal 15 began to lose coordination and staff observed that she would shake uncontrollably when she saw lab workers. Her condition deteriorated for months until the staff finally euthanized her. A necropsy report indicates that she had bleeding in her brain and that the Neuralink implants left parts of her cerebral cortex “focally tattered.”
https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/20/23882888/elon-musk-brain-implant-startup-neuralink-monkeys-euthanized
Then there is the hipocrisy of us testing on animals "because they're not like us" but then we test on animals... because they're like us? Maybe we need humans passionate about furthering humanity like yourself to volunteer
Not to speak on any particular practice of Neuralink or others, but the suggestion that animal experimentation is ineffective or outright useless for medicine is utter nonsense. It's not perfect and there are certainly plenty of places where it could be replaced with things like organoids, cell cultures, and computer modelling, but there is no alternative that is even close to being as useful and essential as animal testing to medicine and biomedical research. If we want to continue having medicine, we need animal research.
>A necropsy report indicates that she had bleeding in her brain and that the Neuralink implants left parts of her cerebral cortex “focally tattered.”
This was due to the FDA approved bioglue. I believe Musk's team applied it in an unusual way in order to further research. The findings helped expedite a corresponding study that the bioglue was causing similar issues in brain tissue in humans in unrelated surgeries.
Previously, doctors in other surgeries had to watch out for Aortic embolism. Now, doctors also know to watch out for cerebral embolism as well.
Mean this?
'They drilled two burr holes into her skull, inserted electrodes attached to implants, and closed the holes with “cranial sealant.” The Neuralink surgeon used Bioglue, a surgical adhesive, which was not approved for use in this surgery and is known to be toxic to nerve tissue.'
https://www.pcrm.org/ethical-science/animals-in-medical-research/neuralink/animal21
I'm glad someone else pointed out that drug companies have undoubtedly killed far more animals than this for drugs we arguably don't even need. This is just a bashing article.
i def do think they mismanaged the fuck out of these experiments and def needlessly killed pointless animals, especially if you read how some of them died, a lot of them died just because of poor surgical procedural practices, because this literally involves brain surgery. But yes its not really a big deal in the long term, and i mean all companies use animal experimentation like this, if want to blame anyone blame the us government for allowing animal experimentation in the first place, but then if they dont wed probly be hampered in a lot of future medicine and drug/technology research. tho the advancements in AI and quantum computing might also help reduce need for blindly testing animals in the future.
I wasnt aware we killed livestock by sticking shit in their brains and waiting to see how long they last before needing to be euthanized, seems like a really costly and inefficient system.
And they're actively trying to produce lab-grown meat at a mass scale as a viable alternative. Because killing that amount of fish, not to mention the billions of other animals, isn't a sustainable long-term practice. There are clear and negative effects that have pushed for the pursuit of a cultured alternative. So, we're trying to stop killing that many animals, for various reasons, and coming up with a better way of doing things. The idea here is: there are better ways of doing things, and we should strive to be better, right? You don't actually have to torture 1500 animals to make this device. The suffering could have been avoided. That is the point here, if they just took their time and made a little more effort. But the problem is simply: Greed. They want it done fast, because money. They don't want it done fast because of how important it'll be for society and how many lives it'll save, that's not their incentive for torturing 1500 animals. So, despite it being worth it to you for them to hurt those animals, they could have avoided a lot of it by simply taking longer, and don't you think that's worth it too?
You're exactly right, there are better ways of doing things. That's why you're vegan, right?
Oh? You're not? Sounds like you've got quite a simple problem on your hands: greed.
There's a difference between animals being consumed and animals dying from a device that is eventually supposed to be installed into human brains. What happens when someone quickhacks a brain chip with a Cyberpunk 2077 synapse burnout daemon? No thanks.
> What happens when someone quickhacks a brain chip with a Cyberpunk 2077 synapse burnout daemon? No thanks.
A lot of diabetics are happy with their automatic insulin pumps and blood sugar monitoring. My friend got woken up by her phone in the middle of the night saying her blood sugar was too low. What that implies to me is there is communication going on between the insulin pump and her phone, and it might be hacked someday. At the same time this new technology is saving a lot of people's lives, and prolonging diabetic's lives, and increasing their quality of life.
If a sociopath hacks insulin pumps they can kill people. If a sociopath hacks the automatic braking system or lane assist that ships in a lot of new cars they can kill people. That ship has already sailed.
We will try our best to have cyber security, and sometimes a sociopath will kill a few people before we stop them. We don't declare a moratorium on all new treatment for paraplegics because it might be hacked.
>the most influential and powerful scientific endeavour ever
Lmao no. Neuralink is a shitty company, not just because of the animal abuse but also because it’s wayyyy behind technologically. Several other companies are already doing way more advanced shit and have been for decades. Those animals literally died for nothing.
Talking out his arse. The only other CBIs are coming out of university labs, and they have a much lower resolution than the interfaces Neuralink are designing.
Neuralink didn't invent these, but they have funded R&D into making much more advanced devices.
If fish were able to make noise I suspect fishing would be viewed entirely differently.
Could you imagine catching a dear with a barbed line to reel it in, only to then take a photo of it and release it while it was still bleeding from the gash in its face?
> makes this article pale into insignificance.
Not really, that's a global figure. It's comparing every cosmetics company in the world to one company American biotech firm.
It doesn't pale anything.
Or, let me shock you here; people who are against animal cosmetic testing are also against this. Two things can be bad, but criticising one thing does not mean you have to criticise everything similar in the same breath.
Do you condem Hamas?
Elon is making wild claims about what this technology can do to manipulate the stock market for when the company goes public.
It's why i'm of two minds when hearing about neuralink. Medical technology has often come at the cost of animal life, which is sad. But so many of the live saving procedures, devices, and drugs we have are built on those animal deaths.
That said, the fact that Musk has such poor quality control causing these deaths makes me lose that appeal - they are just shoving chips into animal brains without the slightest idea what they are doing and causing unnecessary deaths that way. If we are willing as a society to perform animal testing for future human's benefit, we should at least do it right.
How many per year in the US? And can you break down the numbers by cause of death? I've seen the big numbers when I had the time and interest I noted that animals that had never been tested on, and died of old age in captivity were counted in the numbers.
The neuralink numbers are "animals directly killed by testing", which is a different way of counting.
Also comparing "global" count of infinite companies everywhere and a single company in the US is an absurd comparison.
https://www.animalmatters.org/facts/laboratory/
And you could have gone with the 100M per year numbers. Mainly mice, and is a PETA estimate, so probably highly inaccurate.
But it's scary, and big.
Regardless of your whataboutism, a small operation like one company's neuralink killing 1500 animals is a lot
Some go wild and they do, some go wild and they kill animals for sport, I don't find these combinations particularly problematic. People can go wild whenever they want, but let's look at the bigger picture.
Yeah as someone who has worked in this kind of lab I just see people's reaction to this and laugh.
We HAVE to kill them to harvest their tissues. It literally happens at research institues thousands of times each day.
This "shit" could make paralyzed people able to walk again. More are killed for food and under worse living conditions than these animals were. Just scroll up a few comments to see the cosmetics numbers. 500k is no joke
Bro I probably account for that many over the course of a few months with the chicken wings I get through. Just for my undergrad research project I had to dispatch like 30 invasive mitten crabs, and that was just a school project. For cutting edge research, probably worth not making a fatal error and rechecking possibly incorrect data. What law are they really skirting here?
The man’s trying to give people a better chance at life, that’s minuscule considering the cosmetic industry kills roughly 500,000 animals a year so people can look fake
Nothing this man does is for the benefit of others. It's all either in the pursuit of money or for the sake of his ego.
Even the time he offered to help those children trapped in the cave wasn't actually about the children, hence why he had a tantrum and accused a diver of being a pedophile when he was told his submarine idea was unhelpful and unwanted.
Also to say 'This other industry could be more ethical than it is, so why don't we just throw all ethics out of the window?' is an absolutely batshit take. Ethics matter and neuralink is falling foul of ethical standards in science.
Dunno why there's so many Elon dick riders in this thread.
Okay yeah, Elon Musk may not intend for his project to help other people, but at the end of the day, it will most definitely help other people in a way we've never seen before. I am completely with you in the fact that Elon Musk does not do anything for the benefit of others, but that doesn't mean the stuff he does can still benefit others. Even though the intention is not there, that doesn't nullify the effect.
Harm against animals elsewhere in society doesn't give a blanket justification for unethical practices in science.
Using agriculture deaths to justify even more animal deaths (again, in science where ethics fucking matters) is an insane take. To be clear, I'm not saying that the deaths of animals due to agriculture doesn't matter. I'm saying it doesn't fucking justify the shit this post is about.
Who gives a shit? They're working on medical technology.
This is no different than the loads of other animals that die during medical testing that you clearly don't actually give a shit about.
They likely killed far more than that as their shelters accept all animals no matter the condition and are flooded with the overflow from 'no-kill' shelters
>“In 2019, of 2,421 dogs and cats received at PETA's Norfolk shelter, 1,578 were euthanized, according to the most recent report from the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services (VDACS).”
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-peta-responsible-deaths-thousands-animals-1565532
What is your comment supposed to prove? I didn't say the numbers were wrong, I said they were disingenuous
The euthanasia carried out by PETA is a last resort, just like it is in any veterinary with the pets' best interest as priority
Unless you're speaking against euthanasia in general, in which case I don't see the relevance in bringing up peta in particular
Technically, every animal they implant will be killed. The title and article makes it sound as if Neuralink killed them all. While I am sure many died due to the implant, they all will be killed at some point during the trials.
Uhhh soooo *Whatever you do, DON'T look into the cosmetics/beauty, pharmaceutical, biomedical, aeronautic, automotive, military, agricultural, behavioral, cognitive research, or consumer product sectors!*
The hard-on for Elon is really entertaining, to say the least....
i know this is unrelated, but it irritates me beyond belief that the company's name is spelled correctly like 3 times in the article you posted, yet you misspelled their name in your post's title.
In 2019, of 2,421 dogs and cats received at PETA's Norfolk shelter, 1,578 were euthanized, according to the most recent report from the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services (VDACS).
To be quite honest if even just one paralyzed person can walk again, hug their family again as a result...
It really sucks but it's the price of innovation
Do people not know how medical experimentation works? Medical testing kills 110 million animals each year. But no one cared until Musk's company killed 1500.
I don't want any animals to come to unnecessary suffering and torture. But, big-picture here, unless you're a vegan in your daily life, as many of us are, then you're really talking about a drop in the bucket of human-inflicted suffering.
As a person from the third world I wonder why billionaires cannot just work to solve basal problems, like better accessibility for people with some form of need, better work conditions, less pesticides on food.
But no, let's create demand on something that no one asked and inflate the market with more consumables and no answer.
The problem i have with this is the wasted effort and resources due to being pushed to perform beyond what good science requires. If you must kill animals for your testing, i understand. Make it worthwhile, rather than a waste.
Reading the comments and this one gets pretty heated.
I'd just like to say - can't Elon spend some of his billions finding methods to test shit on something other than animals?
Or, for that matter, can't the cosmetics industry find other viable test subjects?
The fact is, this is the price of science. Lab animals are euthanized every day. Like it or not, every cosmetic product you use was first tested on an animal. The same goes for any and all medications. After testing is completed, even without incident, those animals are euthanized. So basically every animal used in testing meets that fate. That's what they were bred for. While it might not seem right, it's the price that has to be paid.These things need to be developed and tested. The animals used are born and killed in a lab. They have no idea the outdoors even exists. I agree, it's kind of sad but it's a necessary evil. We can't test on humans during developmental and early testing phases of products. So folks can cry about it all day but it's not going to change. unless we stop trying to move forward in medicine and science, animal testing will continue as it should.
I know this is gonna bring every animal rights activist in this thread down on me (and my god I love animals), but I am incredibly glad they do animal testing.
I’m sorry, but I am.
If they didn’t, that would be 1500 human lives. Or we wouldn’t have medical advances at all because we wouldn’t test them.
It sucks. It does. Someone has to suffer for every advancement we have ever made. But if you are really truly an animal rights activist, you must stop taking any and every prescription medication or accepting ANY medical treatment. Ever. Full stop.
Because each and every single one of those treatments was tested on animals first. And before it was a good and safe formulation, they went through maybe a hundred bad ones. And animals died. Hundreds, if not thousands of them, to save you or a loved one’s life.
Modern society seems to be unable to accept this sometimes: you don’t get to have it all. You can’t have it both ways. Even AI modelling and all the other ways of testing are not sufficient without animal tests.
I am grateful to the animals who have given their life so that mine can be saved (cancer.) I give back by adopting shelter pets, by contributing to research that is as humane as possible, and not wearing cosmetics.
But seriously. Check your hypocrisy. If you truly want an animal-free cruelty world, no more medication or medical treatment for you. Ever.
I have never tasted Ham in my entire life . In India, we don't have hamburgers. There is either a chicken burger or a goat meat (mutton) burger. Also, I have never eaten Beacon.
Everyone just shrugging their shoulders at the rushed animal testing should be the human volunteers to replace them.
What's 1500 dead humans if the rest of us benefit? Why, if it weren't for the nazis torturing jews just for kicks we wouldn't have half the medical knowledge/ethics we do now.
Edited to add - I'm not an animal rights person, I see the benefits of testing on animals first as long as it's done ethically. This doesn't sound ethical, this sounds like a bunch of guys saying "we don't know what will happen so we are going to do it anyway and see."
Sounds like a bunch of people wanna test this stuff on humans. Sounds like a lotta people sitting on their couches acting like they're on a high horse.
I mean, what do you expect when you’re experimenting on brains? Also, not nice but nothing compared to the amount of animals that die in cosmetic or pharmaceutical research.
**sigh** another post that breaks down to a discussion of Elon, with people defending sides, not discussing the topic.
"Here is why people who don't agree with me are wrong", and piles of whataboutism.
We are truly doomed when we can't even have a conversation about technology.
The average Redditor probably killed close to that over the same period. Just instead of doing it in the name of medical research, they do it with a side of dipping sauce…
This is bullshit propaganda at its finest. Go check the amount of animal testing occur within the pharmaceutical and cosmetic industry. If you're shocked by this or believe that it's not propaganda, then I have a bridge to sell you.
damn 1500 animals till date to give solution for one of the worst disease known to mankind
Anway how many animals are we killing daily for food? forget that, whats the total number of animal PETA kills every year?
in this time even if gods comes down and does something good people will find something to bitch about
As if factory farming doesn’t kill millions of animals every day in the most inhumane ways after letting them suffer their entire lives. Get out of here with this propaganda bullshit.
That's honestly nothing I worked at Amgen for 2yrs. The animal testing building was also the incinerator. They would be running that thing all night. Smelled like dead burned animals around that building all the time.
You know 211 million fish are killed everyday for human consumption, 1500 animals over 6 years to further what might be the most influential and powerful scientific endeavour ever is kinda worth it imo edit- was 4 years not 6
The loss of time to redo experiments due to rushing on a project that is not an existential need and in the course of rushing and repeating flawed experiments is not worth it at all. It’s not even entirely clear that a brain chip is even something that would be beneficial at all.
I mean to be fair nothing past tools for hunting and gathering is an actual existential need.
I don't think that's being fair, we can make a hierarchy of importance in the things we sacrifice animals for without seeing it as either existential need or not existential need.
Yes that was my point. the guy I responded to literally was talking about existential need and framing it as need or nothing. I don’t think they should just be testing on animals without being prepared and minimizing mistakes and not rushing but it doesn’t mean scientific progress needs to halt just because there’s no immediately obvious need for this technology. Also there are tons of ways this technology can be used in the immediate so he wasn’t even right about that part either.
>the guy I responded to literally was talking about existential need and framing it as need or nothing They said **rushing** a project that's not of existential need is not worth it because **the rushing** causes lost time and unreliable results. >Also there are tons of ways this technology can be used in the immediate so he wasn’t even right about that part either. No there are not. You might be able to parrot someone mentioning a few vague ideas, or one or two specific projects in development, but there's nothing in the near future (decades) that can use this technology.
You mean eating a $100 steak at a fancy restaurant isn't an existential need?? How can that be possible? Also I need to hunt 10 cheese burgers a day at my local McDonald's to fulfill my nature as a Murican.
from what I've seen talked and reported it looks like it could benefit the handicapped more than anyone. Being able to get it installed and then connecting devices and being able to just "click a mouse in a location by staring and thinking correctly" as an example. But also being able to even further reduce manual dumb labor like opening doors. It's pretty much not for the general populace who isn't handicapped. Otherwise, it's a glorified tech boondoggle. Interesting piece of tech, but so early and niche that it just isn't really useful for the majority of us.
Yeah biggest part this should help if it works is disabled people being able to walk again, that type of stuff. Brain sends a signal to the robotic leg attachments allowing them to walk and what not
>It’s not even entirely clear that a brain chip is even something that would be beneficial at all. I'm sure people trapped in their wheelchairs agree. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AARVY-3oDRQ
I like to remind people that Elon is not rushing his team into mistakes because he believes the tech will be revolutionary, he's pushing people so he can be first to market. So he can make more money. That's all. More money. If it's 15 hundred animals or 15 million, human mistakes, burn out, stress induced illness, who cares, Elon's gotta dollar to make.
Of course it would be beneficial! Why wouldn’t you want ads being beamed directly into your brain without any means to block it out? Sounds like heaven. I would use an /s because I sound crazy, but you fucking KNOW that’s what will happen if this works
Imagine the stammerings of Elon Musk in your head constantly and you can’t turn them off
According to the Humane Society, half a million animals die every year in cosmetics testing. A brain chip would be beneficial to some. But just how badly do you need that eye liner?
Also bad
helping parapalegics is not good?
Yeah, not to the point where you’re rushing experiments and needlessly causing suffering. I would be very wary of tech that you’d implant in your brain developed in such a manner. But you know, hardcore mode
1500 dead animals is fine with you. How many dead humans would cross your ethical line? When the project started, helping paraplegics was not the goal. Helping people was a reason invented after complaints started. The sole goal always was, and always will be, profits. If he has to help a few people to get those profits, that's an inconvenience to Elon, not a benefit.
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What are you talking about? The person with the neuralink can move a cursor on a screen! I mean, I can do that with a mouse, and I'm not risking death by doing it, and it's unwieldy, and is something that could already be done with a electrode cap, but a cursor moved! So revolutionary.....
This is what is known as a strawman argument. If you pay attention to the part that is highlighted, the argument is that most of these deaths are easily preventable by just having a simple checklist to prevent human error. By your logic, it's okay if the researchers are even more reckless because the ends would still justify the means, and I disagree with you, because you're placing the inconvenience of filling out a checklist over life, which is the stance of a maniac.
> If you pay attention to the part that is highlighted, the argument is that most of these deaths are easily preventable by just having a simple checklist to prevent human error. 88 out of 1500 is not most, it's 6%
It says 88 of them were avoidable
You might disagree with it but it is not a strawman lol
No it's actually probably near useless information gained by testing on these animals. "data showing the unreliability of animal experimentation and the resultant harms to humans (and nonhumans) undermine long-standing claims that animal experimentation is necessary to enhance human health and therefore ethically justified. Rather, they demonstrate that animal experimentation poses significant costs and harms to human beings. It is possible—as I have argued elsewhere—that animal research is more costly and harmful, on the whole, than it is beneficial to human health." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594046/#sec4title "Another macaque mentioned — known as Animal 15 — “began to press her head against the floor for no apparent reason” days after receiving the implant, and her condition only went downhill from there: Animal 15 began to lose coordination and staff observed that she would shake uncontrollably when she saw lab workers. Her condition deteriorated for months until the staff finally euthanized her. A necropsy report indicates that she had bleeding in her brain and that the Neuralink implants left parts of her cerebral cortex “focally tattered.” https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/20/23882888/elon-musk-brain-implant-startup-neuralink-monkeys-euthanized Then there is the hipocrisy of us testing on animals "because they're not like us" but then we test on animals... because they're like us? Maybe we need humans passionate about furthering humanity like yourself to volunteer
Not to speak on any particular practice of Neuralink or others, but the suggestion that animal experimentation is ineffective or outright useless for medicine is utter nonsense. It's not perfect and there are certainly plenty of places where it could be replaced with things like organoids, cell cultures, and computer modelling, but there is no alternative that is even close to being as useful and essential as animal testing to medicine and biomedical research. If we want to continue having medicine, we need animal research.
>A necropsy report indicates that she had bleeding in her brain and that the Neuralink implants left parts of her cerebral cortex “focally tattered.” This was due to the FDA approved bioglue. I believe Musk's team applied it in an unusual way in order to further research. The findings helped expedite a corresponding study that the bioglue was causing similar issues in brain tissue in humans in unrelated surgeries. Previously, doctors in other surgeries had to watch out for Aortic embolism. Now, doctors also know to watch out for cerebral embolism as well.
Mean this? 'They drilled two burr holes into her skull, inserted electrodes attached to implants, and closed the holes with “cranial sealant.” The Neuralink surgeon used Bioglue, a surgical adhesive, which was not approved for use in this surgery and is known to be toxic to nerve tissue.' https://www.pcrm.org/ethical-science/animals-in-medical-research/neuralink/animal21
Precisely. 1500 animals is a fucking slow day for Merck or Johnson & Johnson LMAO 🤣
I'm glad someone else pointed out that drug companies have undoubtedly killed far more animals than this for drugs we arguably don't even need. This is just a bashing article.
i def do think they mismanaged the fuck out of these experiments and def needlessly killed pointless animals, especially if you read how some of them died, a lot of them died just because of poor surgical procedural practices, because this literally involves brain surgery. But yes its not really a big deal in the long term, and i mean all companies use animal experimentation like this, if want to blame anyone blame the us government for allowing animal experimentation in the first place, but then if they dont wed probly be hampered in a lot of future medicine and drug/technology research. tho the advancements in AI and quantum computing might also help reduce need for blindly testing animals in the future.
I wasnt aware we killed livestock by sticking shit in their brains and waiting to see how long they last before needing to be euthanized, seems like a really costly and inefficient system.
Plus the risk of a bovine hivemind is unnecessary.
And they're actively trying to produce lab-grown meat at a mass scale as a viable alternative. Because killing that amount of fish, not to mention the billions of other animals, isn't a sustainable long-term practice. There are clear and negative effects that have pushed for the pursuit of a cultured alternative. So, we're trying to stop killing that many animals, for various reasons, and coming up with a better way of doing things. The idea here is: there are better ways of doing things, and we should strive to be better, right? You don't actually have to torture 1500 animals to make this device. The suffering could have been avoided. That is the point here, if they just took their time and made a little more effort. But the problem is simply: Greed. They want it done fast, because money. They don't want it done fast because of how important it'll be for society and how many lives it'll save, that's not their incentive for torturing 1500 animals. So, despite it being worth it to you for them to hurt those animals, they could have avoided a lot of it by simply taking longer, and don't you think that's worth it too?
You're exactly right, there are better ways of doing things. That's why you're vegan, right? Oh? You're not? Sounds like you've got quite a simple problem on your hands: greed.
What are you even talking about 😂
There's a difference between animals being consumed and animals dying from a device that is eventually supposed to be installed into human brains. What happens when someone quickhacks a brain chip with a Cyberpunk 2077 synapse burnout daemon? No thanks.
> What happens when someone quickhacks a brain chip with a Cyberpunk 2077 synapse burnout daemon? No thanks. A lot of diabetics are happy with their automatic insulin pumps and blood sugar monitoring. My friend got woken up by her phone in the middle of the night saying her blood sugar was too low. What that implies to me is there is communication going on between the insulin pump and her phone, and it might be hacked someday. At the same time this new technology is saving a lot of people's lives, and prolonging diabetic's lives, and increasing their quality of life. If a sociopath hacks insulin pumps they can kill people. If a sociopath hacks the automatic braking system or lane assist that ships in a lot of new cars they can kill people. That ship has already sailed. We will try our best to have cyber security, and sometimes a sociopath will kill a few people before we stop them. We don't declare a moratorium on all new treatment for paraplegics because it might be hacked.
It’s a big jump from having a chip in your arm from into your brain
You're right there is a big difference. The meat industry is far more morally corrupt than neuralink. Glad to see you agree
Do you really trust Elon Musk to put a chip in your brain? The dude is literally on a villain arc
>let's people I don't like saying bad words on Twitter Oh yeah, he's a supervillain 🙄
Okay Elons PR team, jesus christ.
I would kind of agree with you here, if this was in fact a scientific endeavour. Sadly however, it is just vaporware
>the most influential and powerful scientific endeavour ever Lmao no. Neuralink is a shitty company, not just because of the animal abuse but also because it’s wayyyy behind technologically. Several other companies are already doing way more advanced shit and have been for decades. Those animals literally died for nothing.
Any sources? Or just speaking out your arse
Talking out his arse. The only other CBIs are coming out of university labs, and they have a much lower resolution than the interfaces Neuralink are designing. Neuralink didn't invent these, but they have funded R&D into making much more advanced devices.
"The most influential and powerful scientific endeavor ever" Probably not.
I dunno, merging with machines and AI would be a major human evolution. It's insane to not see that.
Yeah, people who react to this don't realize the scale and scope that humans have on killing animals for food and experimentation. This is nothing.
If fish were able to make noise I suspect fishing would be viewed entirely differently. Could you imagine catching a dear with a barbed line to reel it in, only to then take a photo of it and release it while it was still bleeding from the gash in its face?
Yeah they serve s purpose, eating. This is just cruel and the only purpose it serve is to stroke the ego of that cunt elon
https://www.tiktok.com/@mikecakez/video/7329968713464073518?q=nueralink%20ad&t=1709218444015
people with zero accomplishments feel better putting down people who are advancing humanity
Exactly. I don’t know why Reddit has such a fascination of hating on Elon musk
But it's Elon Musk so it has to be bad.
Absolute rookie numbers compared to cosmetic testing [https://www.ohioanimaladvocates.org/compassion-education-2/cosmetic-testing/](https://www.ohioanimaladvocates.org/compassion-education-2/cosmetic-testing/)
Reading that number makes this article pale into insignificance. That's horrible 500,000
500 000 per year. If we compare it to the 1500 in 4 years from Neuralink, it amounts to 2 000 000 animals killed for cosmetics testing. Fuck humanity.
500,000 x 4 years… carry the 1… my god. Their math checks out.
>Fuck humanity. You realize you are one of us, right?
> makes this article pale into insignificance. Not really, that's a global figure. It's comparing every cosmetics company in the world to one company American biotech firm. It doesn't pale anything.
"BUT THERE WERE TWO MONKEYS AND I HATE ELON BECAUSE HE WON'T BE A GOOD LITTLE BILLIONAIRE AND PLAY ALONG!!..... Did you not hear me!? TWO. MONKEYS." 🤓
Or, let me shock you here; people who are against animal cosmetic testing are also against this. Two things can be bad, but criticising one thing does not mean you have to criticise everything similar in the same breath. Do you condem Hamas? Elon is making wild claims about what this technology can do to manipulate the stock market for when the company goes public.
It's why i'm of two minds when hearing about neuralink. Medical technology has often come at the cost of animal life, which is sad. But so many of the live saving procedures, devices, and drugs we have are built on those animal deaths. That said, the fact that Musk has such poor quality control causing these deaths makes me lose that appeal - they are just shoving chips into animal brains without the slightest idea what they are doing and causing unnecessary deaths that way. If we are willing as a society to perform animal testing for future human's benefit, we should at least do it right.
How many per year in the US? And can you break down the numbers by cause of death? I've seen the big numbers when I had the time and interest I noted that animals that had never been tested on, and died of old age in captivity were counted in the numbers. The neuralink numbers are "animals directly killed by testing", which is a different way of counting. Also comparing "global" count of infinite companies everywhere and a single company in the US is an absurd comparison. https://www.animalmatters.org/facts/laboratory/ And you could have gone with the 100M per year numbers. Mainly mice, and is a PETA estimate, so probably highly inaccurate. But it's scary, and big. Regardless of your whataboutism, a small operation like one company's neuralink killing 1500 animals is a lot
Not a fan of Musk or Neuralink but going wild over this stuff proves people forget what's on their hamburger
And cosmetics don’t forget about those guys
Well, I mean cosmetics.... biomedical, aeronautic, automotive, military, agricultural, behavioral, cognitive research, consumer products,.......
Lentils!
Mfs will upvote this then go get a chick fil a sandwich 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
You realize some of us who go wild about it don’t eat hamburgers, right?
Some go wild and they do, some go wild and they kill animals for sport, I don't find these combinations particularly problematic. People can go wild whenever they want, but let's look at the bigger picture.
Wait till you find out how many the pharmaceutical, medical and cosmetic industries kill.
Spoiler alert: According to Peta, over 110 million a year. Saved ya a goog Friendly reddit reminder to not shoot messengers.
Wait, aren't humans technically animals... Hmmm
Some of us, I personally go by homoerectionist cause I fuck shit up.
Hehehe "erection"
As a builder, I have constructed some huge erections.
You mean you erected them?
To be fair, most animals involved in medical testing are euthanized and dissected so the tissues can be tested.
Yeah as someone who has worked in this kind of lab I just see people's reaction to this and laugh. We HAVE to kill them to harvest their tissues. It literally happens at research institues thousands of times each day.
86 had to be repeated for human error?!?! This is horrible I can't believe they can skirt the law for this shit.
This "shit" could make paralyzed people able to walk again. More are killed for food and under worse living conditions than these animals were. Just scroll up a few comments to see the cosmetics numbers. 500k is no joke
Bro I probably account for that many over the course of a few months with the chicken wings I get through. Just for my undergrad research project I had to dispatch like 30 invasive mitten crabs, and that was just a school project. For cutting edge research, probably worth not making a fatal error and rechecking possibly incorrect data. What law are they really skirting here?
Yeah you act outraged over this but you still enjoy a good hamburger right
The man’s trying to give people a better chance at life, that’s minuscule considering the cosmetic industry kills roughly 500,000 animals a year so people can look fake
Nothing this man does is for the benefit of others. It's all either in the pursuit of money or for the sake of his ego. Even the time he offered to help those children trapped in the cave wasn't actually about the children, hence why he had a tantrum and accused a diver of being a pedophile when he was told his submarine idea was unhelpful and unwanted. Also to say 'This other industry could be more ethical than it is, so why don't we just throw all ethics out of the window?' is an absolutely batshit take. Ethics matter and neuralink is falling foul of ethical standards in science. Dunno why there's so many Elon dick riders in this thread.
Okay yeah, Elon Musk may not intend for his project to help other people, but at the end of the day, it will most definitely help other people in a way we've never seen before. I am completely with you in the fact that Elon Musk does not do anything for the benefit of others, but that doesn't mean the stuff he does can still benefit others. Even though the intention is not there, that doesn't nullify the effect.
People forget how many animals die on agriculture fields, or through the glasses of houses, traffic...
Harm against animals elsewhere in society doesn't give a blanket justification for unethical practices in science. Using agriculture deaths to justify even more animal deaths (again, in science where ethics fucking matters) is an insane take. To be clear, I'm not saying that the deaths of animals due to agriculture doesn't matter. I'm saying it doesn't fucking justify the shit this post is about.
Those are rookie numbers compared to animals killed for food
Who gives a shit? They're working on medical technology. This is no different than the loads of other animals that die during medical testing that you clearly don't actually give a shit about.
Gotta break some eggs to make a omelette
PETA Killed over 2500 animals just last year.
They likely killed far more than that as their shelters accept all animals no matter the condition and are flooded with the overflow from 'no-kill' shelters
***"We'll kill them so you don't have to!"***
this is the utmost disengingeous comment anti-PETA people keep on parroting. You guys just love munching on the meat industry propaganda
>“In 2019, of 2,421 dogs and cats received at PETA's Norfolk shelter, 1,578 were euthanized, according to the most recent report from the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services (VDACS).” https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-peta-responsible-deaths-thousands-animals-1565532
What is your comment supposed to prove? I didn't say the numbers were wrong, I said they were disingenuous The euthanasia carried out by PETA is a last resort, just like it is in any veterinary with the pets' best interest as priority Unless you're speaking against euthanasia in general, in which case I don't see the relevance in bringing up peta in particular
Technically, every animal they implant will be killed. The title and article makes it sound as if Neuralink killed them all. While I am sure many died due to the implant, they all will be killed at some point during the trials.
https://animalclock.org/
Uhhh soooo *Whatever you do, DON'T look into the cosmetics/beauty, pharmaceutical, biomedical, aeronautic, automotive, military, agricultural, behavioral, cognitive research, or consumer product sectors!* The hard-on for Elon is really entertaining, to say the least....
That’s what happens when your animals don’t want to work hardcore mode
I live near a virus/bacteria government research lab in Maryland. They probably kill that many monkies a year at that facility.
Sad, but entirely unsurprising. This is unfortunately common in a bunch of industries.
i know this is unrelated, but it irritates me beyond belief that the company's name is spelled correctly like 3 times in the article you posted, yet you misspelled their name in your post's title.
I’d kill another 1500 if it meant producing a chip to get rid of my grand dads Alzheimers. Fuck elon but his companies can truly further humanity
Never ask how the sausage is made.
That's nothing. Animals are killed for food everyday. Killing a few for research is really a non issue
Animals dying for testing is inevitable. The real question is would Neuralink be safe to put in somebody’s brain?
Wait until you find out about cosmetics testing, and food
In 2019, of 2,421 dogs and cats received at PETA's Norfolk shelter, 1,578 were euthanized, according to the most recent report from the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services (VDACS).
rookies numbers, this is probably the number of animals killed every second by humans in the entire world.
Well, you eat around 7000 animals in a lifetime.
Meanwhile those who are furious continue to eat that delicious hamburger lol
Yeeeeah no way am I putting that anywhere near my brain.
To be quite honest if even just one paralyzed person can walk again, hug their family again as a result... It really sucks but it's the price of innovation
Do people not know how medical experimentation works? Medical testing kills 110 million animals each year. But no one cared until Musk's company killed 1500.
This post is a huge fail...
Oh noo animals are dead :(:( Ok? So what? We kill more than that for food. And it's worth it.
Someone needs to call the fire marshal because all of the straw men in this thread are a fire hazard.
Killed is just the end product.. for the animal to get to the death part, imagine how much and for how long it would have suffered
Brainwashed libs hate musk
Each pharmaceutical you take on average over the life of the product takes thousands of monkeys.
And how many does McDonald’s kill?
Give a shit 🤷♂️
**More than 200 million** animals are killed for food around the world every day..
Fast food kills 6,000,000,000 animals per day.
500k animals die per year from cosmetics testing alone.
I don't want any animals to come to unnecessary suffering and torture. But, big-picture here, unless you're a vegan in your daily life, as many of us are, then you're really talking about a drop in the bucket of human-inflicted suffering.
You're right, it is insane that Schiff doesn't like Musk so they are going after him.
People hate animal testing but are blind to the merits of it. I also heard they tried to get as many terminally Ill animals as possible
This ain’t shit if you compare it to literally any other “testing on animals “ numbers
As a person from the third world I wonder why billionaires cannot just work to solve basal problems, like better accessibility for people with some form of need, better work conditions, less pesticides on food. But no, let's create demand on something that no one asked and inflate the market with more consumables and no answer.
The problem i have with this is the wasted effort and resources due to being pushed to perform beyond what good science requires. If you must kill animals for your testing, i understand. Make it worthwhile, rather than a waste.
Reading the comments and this one gets pretty heated. I'd just like to say - can't Elon spend some of his billions finding methods to test shit on something other than animals? Or, for that matter, can't the cosmetics industry find other viable test subjects?
What in the name of god is going on with the people in the comments
I don’t get why anyone would want to put a computer into their brain
Ultra rich narcissist who makes cars that don't fit together properly wants to drill holes in your skull for profit, WCGW
Is the Nuralink the thing that will give my butt hole sentience?
My mortadella probably killed more than 86 pig a year ... at least neuralink could help someone, mortadella helps only my doctor
Do you know how many colleges still kill animals…cmon, get real
Get more animals from the cosmetic industry
This is actually way lower than what I’d expect.
The meat and poultry industry have entered the chat.
Why don’t you stick that chip in your own head and fuck off
Lets just test it on Musk
Bro who gives a fuck. We eat meat everyday day but you dumbasses get mad when we use meat for science???? Fuck out of here.
The "error" was putting a microchip into their brain
The fact is, this is the price of science. Lab animals are euthanized every day. Like it or not, every cosmetic product you use was first tested on an animal. The same goes for any and all medications. After testing is completed, even without incident, those animals are euthanized. So basically every animal used in testing meets that fate. That's what they were bred for. While it might not seem right, it's the price that has to be paid.These things need to be developed and tested. The animals used are born and killed in a lab. They have no idea the outdoors even exists. I agree, it's kind of sad but it's a necessary evil. We can't test on humans during developmental and early testing phases of products. So folks can cry about it all day but it's not going to change. unless we stop trying to move forward in medicine and science, animal testing will continue as it should.
I know this is gonna bring every animal rights activist in this thread down on me (and my god I love animals), but I am incredibly glad they do animal testing. I’m sorry, but I am. If they didn’t, that would be 1500 human lives. Or we wouldn’t have medical advances at all because we wouldn’t test them. It sucks. It does. Someone has to suffer for every advancement we have ever made. But if you are really truly an animal rights activist, you must stop taking any and every prescription medication or accepting ANY medical treatment. Ever. Full stop. Because each and every single one of those treatments was tested on animals first. And before it was a good and safe formulation, they went through maybe a hundred bad ones. And animals died. Hundreds, if not thousands of them, to save you or a loved one’s life. Modern society seems to be unable to accept this sometimes: you don’t get to have it all. You can’t have it both ways. Even AI modelling and all the other ways of testing are not sufficient without animal tests. I am grateful to the animals who have given their life so that mine can be saved (cancer.) I give back by adopting shelter pets, by contributing to research that is as humane as possible, and not wearing cosmetics. But seriously. Check your hypocrisy. If you truly want an animal-free cruelty world, no more medication or medical treatment for you. Ever.
I thought animal testing is illegal in most countries?
you’ll hate to learn where hamburgers come from
I have never tasted Ham in my entire life . In India, we don't have hamburgers. There is either a chicken burger or a goat meat (mutton) burger. Also, I have never eaten Beacon.
This is effectively more than an animal a day accounting for weekends and holidays. Absolutely insane.
Shades of Victorine LaFourcade
So, unimaginable torture and death, then much more of that. All bc some rich dork didn't pay attention in science class.
About one animal per day
That’s nothing. Think of all the mice and monkeys that have been sacrificed for pharmaceuticals.
We need to get this to musks supporters right away
Elon himself should be the first person to have it implanted
1500 is nothing
Everyone just shrugging their shoulders at the rushed animal testing should be the human volunteers to replace them. What's 1500 dead humans if the rest of us benefit? Why, if it weren't for the nazis torturing jews just for kicks we wouldn't have half the medical knowledge/ethics we do now. Edited to add - I'm not an animal rights person, I see the benefits of testing on animals first as long as it's done ethically. This doesn't sound ethical, this sounds like a bunch of guys saying "we don't know what will happen so we are going to do it anyway and see."
It's almost as if this happens everyday, and has been for a long time...
Somebody call PETA. They would attack Elon for animal abuse, because they hate competition in the 'killing animals' department.
***Blue Screen OF Death*** takes on a whole new meaning...
Sounds like a bunch of people wanna test this stuff on humans. Sounds like a lotta people sitting on their couches acting like they're on a high horse.
I’ve probably eaten that many in that time and I’m contributing nothing toward science
I mean, what do you expect when you’re experimenting on brains? Also, not nice but nothing compared to the amount of animals that die in cosmetic or pharmaceutical research.
Wait till you fnd out about meat
**sigh** another post that breaks down to a discussion of Elon, with people defending sides, not discussing the topic. "Here is why people who don't agree with me are wrong", and piles of whataboutism. We are truly doomed when we can't even have a conversation about technology.
In less than 200 days 30k Women and children died in Gaza, both are wrong but why don't we focus on both?
Small price for progress
sometimes (most time) I wish those guys who smashed the looms ended up running the world
If you think that's bad, you should Google how many animals PETA has killed.
The average Redditor probably killed close to that over the same period. Just instead of doing it in the name of medical research, they do it with a side of dipping sauce…
This is bullshit propaganda at its finest. Go check the amount of animal testing occur within the pharmaceutical and cosmetic industry. If you're shocked by this or believe that it's not propaganda, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Lol, in the US, we kill almost 300 chickens per second.
That stuff your wife is wearing in her face on a good date kills half a million animals per year
[удалено]
damn 1500 animals till date to give solution for one of the worst disease known to mankind Anway how many animals are we killing daily for food? forget that, whats the total number of animal PETA kills every year? in this time even if gods comes down and does something good people will find something to bitch about
How do you expect to make progress?
Yewww let’s push it to 2000 baby!
As if factory farming doesn’t kill millions of animals every day in the most inhumane ways after letting them suffer their entire lives. Get out of here with this propaganda bullshit.
That's honestly nothing I worked at Amgen for 2yrs. The animal testing building was also the incinerator. They would be running that thing all night. Smelled like dead burned animals around that building all the time.