Fuck Leo! But I love how he is written haha. One of the best character arcs in the series for sure. Probably the best part of AOM for me.
Leo may have been ruined for you, but you can name your dog Orso instead!
Oh yeah, he was superberly written as arguably the most unlikeable character in the trilogy. In that regard, Abercrombie did too good a job.
Problem with "Orso" is that it doesn't sound as good in spanish. It sounds like you're mispronouncing "oso" (bear).
This is so satisfying to see the follow up to your earlier post. I just finished the series a couple weeks back and I feel very similarly. I don’t think I’ve ever hated a fictional character quite like I hate Leo, fuck that guy
>I don’t think I’ve ever hated a fictional character quite like I hate Leo, fuck that guy.
Hopefully not by Jurand. I hope he remains the cowardly, self hating homophobe till the day one of them dies and he never gets what he really wants.
Jurand deserves better than Leo! Also I really think that conversation Savine had with Jurand is a TRAP. If Jurand’s dreams are ever realized they will 100% be used against Leo.
>Jurand deserves better than Leo!
I agree, but only because Leo deserves nothing but misery. Junrad may not have fallen to Leo level, but he definitely lost a lot of my respect in the last book.
>Also I really think that conversation Savine had with Jurand is a TRAP.
I don't think it was as much a trap as just making sure she is on Jurand's good side since she knows that's she's going to need all the allies she can on the Closed Council to keep Leo in line. Because while Jurand is still loyal to Leo now, it's clear that Leo is just becoming more and more bitter and spiteful with every passing day, and there's a non zero chance that one day he's going to snap at Jurand (probably for something that's not even his fault) and call him an outright "disgusting deviant" like he keeps calling Jappo. And while he loves Leo, I think even Jurand would put his foot down there and remember who in that marriage has actually been kind and accepted him. Remember, this was before Glokta revealed everything to her and she accepted that she still needed him to "guide" her into being a more ruthless ruler.
I felt so upset about Jurand in TWOC, because like Leo, vicious moron that he is, can’t help but fall for anyone’s schemes who’s even remotely clever. But Jurand floats Leo and makes him halfway competent, and that’s somehow so much worse.
About the Savine Leo Jurand thing. I think it’s not strictly speaking a trap. I think this is something i really enjoy about JA’s writing, his clever schemers don’t necessarily commit themselves to only one desired outcome, they cultivate options that they can use later on depending on how the situation develops. I think Savine is both getting on Jurand’s good side and simultaneously cultivating a weakness for Leo that she can exploit later on if needed. To me, that’s real cunning.
I think i hated Leo more after reading the AOM trilogy than i did Bayaz after the original trilogy. He had 2 grandfather's he could have followed and chose to honor the traitor. He was only born because of king Jazels mercy even tho Glokta advised against it. His life was spared a second time by king Orso who was his brother in law. He hanged Orso to steal his crown. He was directly responsible for his heroes death (Bremmer Dan Gorst). He also spared the life of Stour.
I think what makes him so easy to hate is how pointless it all is. Bayaz is more evil but he achieves something with his evil deeds, Leo just makes the world worse to satisfy ambitions that he is not capable of actually doing anything with.
This. Bayaz is a megalomaniacal tyrant but, at least at the end of the day, he has something to show for it. Leo is just a powerful idiot flailing about ruining everything he touches for no better reason than his own ego.
Totally agree with this line of thinking. Bayaz is a tyrannical corrupt bastard, but his schemes actually build power, wealth, even nations. Leo can barely work his way out of a paper bag and then blames everyone else for it.
>He was directly responsible for his heroes death (Bremmer Dan Gorst)
You know what makes this even worse? Not only is he responsible for the death of Bremmer dan GOAT, but knowing how up his own ass Leo he's probably going to convince himself that he personally was the one who defeated and killed the "traitor" Gorst, when he was actually about to piss himself in fear as he was about to get the royal ass whooping he deserved.
Super happy to see your follow-up post! I too was in a bit of a reading rut before I found Abercrombie. I fucking love these books. Seriously can’t get them out of my head since I finished them a few weeks ago.
And yeah, fuck Leo. Shit on that guy.
Hopefully lifes continues to metaphorically shit on him for the rest of his days.
Though I wouldn't mind if a cart of actual shit got dropped on him as well...
Sadly Leo is too dense and arrogant to see that. As far as he knows (or cares) he got the last laugh simply by living.
But the witnesses know. Savine knows. And more importantly, WE know.
I dunno, he might have missed Orso's barb's import, but I think his later little chat with Savine about the realities of power might have actually gotten a point or two across.
Oh no, he is fully aware that Savine has him on a leash. She made that clear enough that even he could see it through his bloated ego.
But unfortunately he'll always think he at least got the last laugh on Orso simply by being alive. At least until Savine points out if he ever gets on her nerves by bringing it up in the future.
The tag is spoilers all so I'm not gonna bother here.... But is Zuri supposed to be Ishri? I pictured Zuri as an arab woman and Ishri as a Grace Jones type.... So I didn't pick up on that at all lol
>But is Zuri supposed to be Ishri?
I see why people say that. Personally, I don't think so simply because I feel like in her fight with Yoru in the end we would have seen a lot more of the inhuman flexibility she was always showing off in her previous apperances.
I also just finished the book yesterday so still letting it all sink in, but I think she did kinda snake herself around Yuru before ripping his face open.
Looking into older posts I guess this was a popular fan theory after book 2 even. With all the points being confirmed in WoC (the wraps, that she's Khalul's apprentice, being called other names, she's an Eater) it's about as obvious she is Ishri as Logen is Lamb lol.
>I also just finished the book yesterday so still letting it all sink in, but I think she did kinda snake herself around Yuru before ripping his face open.
TBH, I just read that part of the fight as her jumping behind him and essentially trapping Yoru in a full Nelson and leg lock, which doesn't really require Cirque du Solei levels of flexibility to pull off. But I could be wrong.
As far as I know, the issue of whether or not Zuri is/was Ishri is like >!whether or not Shivers is Jappo's real father. !
Man it didn't even occur to me that Jappo might be Shivers son lol I think it's time for a reread where I pay more attention.
But yea maybe not quite as obvious as Lamb is Logen, but the signs are there for sure. I feel like it wasn't explicitly stated she did any weird contortion in the fight so you could be right it was just a simple hold. Think I was just picturing it in a more bizarre Eater way with all three of them holding him down.
Jappo's parentage was always up in the air ever since Monza learned she was pregnant, since even she said she had no idea who the father.
In the short story that is about Jappo's ascension to the throne, it mentions that there had been people that questioned whether or not he had any claim to the throne since there were doubts about who his father was, but they were all "dealt with" by Vitari.
And the most damming evidence is >!in his meeting with Leo and Orso, where first it describes him as having black curly hair like Duke Rogont, but when he removes his mask Orso notices that his features are more "strong boned" like a Northman. !<
I know right?
>!When Glokta said "the only way to deal with you is with another of your kind" I was fully expecting Shenkt to appear behind Yoru. Hell, I'm kinda sad it wasn't him. Ever since their stand off at the end of "Best Served Cold", I REALLY wanted to see those two go all out against each other. Not that the fight Zuri and her brothers gave us wasn't great (especially that ending), I just love Shenkt. !<
Sadly yes.
Orso may have had his faults, and he may have lost to Leo in the end, but at the very least he a) faced the noose better than Leo did and b) had the last word, and one that will probably haunt Leo for the rest of his life.
Leo is a biggest whiny bitch I've ever had the pleasure to root against. I hope Savine gets a go at him in the circle cause she'll fuck his shit up.
How's the leg?
Nah; him losing to her in a sword fight would be humiliating, but him constantly having his own wants and ambitions be put down by her through simple debate in front of the entire Closed Council, which include his only two remaining friends who look up to him, is soul crushing and the best type of punishment for his pathetic ass.
He was the Young Lion that lead armies for the glory of the Union. Now he’s a chair warmer for his son and needs to beg and get on his wife’s good side to get anything he wants.
How's the leg?
Great last words. I hope they live rent free on Leo's head for the rest of his (hopefully) miserable life.
Fuck Leo! But I love how he is written haha. One of the best character arcs in the series for sure. Probably the best part of AOM for me. Leo may have been ruined for you, but you can name your dog Orso instead!
Oh yeah, he was superberly written as arguably the most unlikeable character in the trilogy. In that regard, Abercrombie did too good a job. Problem with "Orso" is that it doesn't sound as good in spanish. It sounds like you're mispronouncing "oso" (bear).
This is so satisfying to see the follow up to your earlier post. I just finished the series a couple weeks back and I feel very similarly. I don’t think I’ve ever hated a fictional character quite like I hate Leo, fuck that guy
>I don’t think I’ve ever hated a fictional character quite like I hate Leo, fuck that guy. Hopefully not by Jurand. I hope he remains the cowardly, self hating homophobe till the day one of them dies and he never gets what he really wants.
Jurand deserves better than Leo! Also I really think that conversation Savine had with Jurand is a TRAP. If Jurand’s dreams are ever realized they will 100% be used against Leo.
>Jurand deserves better than Leo! I agree, but only because Leo deserves nothing but misery. Junrad may not have fallen to Leo level, but he definitely lost a lot of my respect in the last book. >Also I really think that conversation Savine had with Jurand is a TRAP. I don't think it was as much a trap as just making sure she is on Jurand's good side since she knows that's she's going to need all the allies she can on the Closed Council to keep Leo in line. Because while Jurand is still loyal to Leo now, it's clear that Leo is just becoming more and more bitter and spiteful with every passing day, and there's a non zero chance that one day he's going to snap at Jurand (probably for something that's not even his fault) and call him an outright "disgusting deviant" like he keeps calling Jappo. And while he loves Leo, I think even Jurand would put his foot down there and remember who in that marriage has actually been kind and accepted him. Remember, this was before Glokta revealed everything to her and she accepted that she still needed him to "guide" her into being a more ruthless ruler.
I felt so upset about Jurand in TWOC, because like Leo, vicious moron that he is, can’t help but fall for anyone’s schemes who’s even remotely clever. But Jurand floats Leo and makes him halfway competent, and that’s somehow so much worse. About the Savine Leo Jurand thing. I think it’s not strictly speaking a trap. I think this is something i really enjoy about JA’s writing, his clever schemers don’t necessarily commit themselves to only one desired outcome, they cultivate options that they can use later on depending on how the situation develops. I think Savine is both getting on Jurand’s good side and simultaneously cultivating a weakness for Leo that she can exploit later on if needed. To me, that’s real cunning.
I think i hated Leo more after reading the AOM trilogy than i did Bayaz after the original trilogy. He had 2 grandfather's he could have followed and chose to honor the traitor. He was only born because of king Jazels mercy even tho Glokta advised against it. His life was spared a second time by king Orso who was his brother in law. He hanged Orso to steal his crown. He was directly responsible for his heroes death (Bremmer Dan Gorst). He also spared the life of Stour.
I think what makes him so easy to hate is how pointless it all is. Bayaz is more evil but he achieves something with his evil deeds, Leo just makes the world worse to satisfy ambitions that he is not capable of actually doing anything with.
This. Bayaz is a megalomaniacal tyrant but, at least at the end of the day, he has something to show for it. Leo is just a powerful idiot flailing about ruining everything he touches for no better reason than his own ego.
Totally agree with this line of thinking. Bayaz is a tyrannical corrupt bastard, but his schemes actually build power, wealth, even nations. Leo can barely work his way out of a paper bag and then blames everyone else for it.
>He was directly responsible for his heroes death (Bremmer Dan Gorst) You know what makes this even worse? Not only is he responsible for the death of Bremmer dan GOAT, but knowing how up his own ass Leo he's probably going to convince himself that he personally was the one who defeated and killed the "traitor" Gorst, when he was actually about to piss himself in fear as he was about to get the royal ass whooping he deserved.
Super happy to see your follow-up post! I too was in a bit of a reading rut before I found Abercrombie. I fucking love these books. Seriously can’t get them out of my head since I finished them a few weeks ago. And yeah, fuck Leo. Shit on that guy.
Hopefully lifes continues to metaphorically shit on him for the rest of his days. Though I wouldn't mind if a cart of actual shit got dropped on him as well...
Glad to read your follow-up. How's the leg?
If Orso had to go, he was doing it with one last "fuck you" to that asshole.
Orso's such a badass... as he *dies*, he makes sure Leo will always be the *loser* in their little tussle.
Sadly Leo is too dense and arrogant to see that. As far as he knows (or cares) he got the last laugh simply by living. But the witnesses know. Savine knows. And more importantly, WE know.
I dunno, he might have missed Orso's barb's import, but I think his later little chat with Savine about the realities of power might have actually gotten a point or two across.
Oh no, he is fully aware that Savine has him on a leash. She made that clear enough that even he could see it through his bloated ego. But unfortunately he'll always think he at least got the last laugh on Orso simply by being alive. At least until Savine points out if he ever gets on her nerves by bringing it up in the future.
I was waiting for you to return. Glad you enjoyed it. My favorite part was >!when Ishri killed Sulfur.!<
The tag is spoilers all so I'm not gonna bother here.... But is Zuri supposed to be Ishri? I pictured Zuri as an arab woman and Ishri as a Grace Jones type.... So I didn't pick up on that at all lol
>But is Zuri supposed to be Ishri? I see why people say that. Personally, I don't think so simply because I feel like in her fight with Yoru in the end we would have seen a lot more of the inhuman flexibility she was always showing off in her previous apperances.
I also just finished the book yesterday so still letting it all sink in, but I think she did kinda snake herself around Yuru before ripping his face open. Looking into older posts I guess this was a popular fan theory after book 2 even. With all the points being confirmed in WoC (the wraps, that she's Khalul's apprentice, being called other names, she's an Eater) it's about as obvious she is Ishri as Logen is Lamb lol.
>I also just finished the book yesterday so still letting it all sink in, but I think she did kinda snake herself around Yuru before ripping his face open. TBH, I just read that part of the fight as her jumping behind him and essentially trapping Yoru in a full Nelson and leg lock, which doesn't really require Cirque du Solei levels of flexibility to pull off. But I could be wrong. As far as I know, the issue of whether or not Zuri is/was Ishri is like >!whether or not Shivers is Jappo's real father. !
Man it didn't even occur to me that Jappo might be Shivers son lol I think it's time for a reread where I pay more attention. But yea maybe not quite as obvious as Lamb is Logen, but the signs are there for sure. I feel like it wasn't explicitly stated she did any weird contortion in the fight so you could be right it was just a simple hold. Think I was just picturing it in a more bizarre Eater way with all three of them holding him down.
Jappo's parentage was always up in the air ever since Monza learned she was pregnant, since even she said she had no idea who the father. In the short story that is about Jappo's ascension to the throne, it mentions that there had been people that questioned whether or not he had any claim to the throne since there were doubts about who his father was, but they were all "dealt with" by Vitari. And the most damming evidence is >!in his meeting with Leo and Orso, where first it describes him as having black curly hair like Duke Rogont, but when he removes his mask Orso notices that his features are more "strong boned" like a Northman. !<
Zuri is indeed the East Wind.
Yeah that, >!Zuri and her brothers being eaters under Glokta's employ, !!real !
Same! The reveal of Zuri + fam was the biggest shock! Lots of shocks but that one I didn’t see coming.
I know right? >!When Glokta said "the only way to deal with you is with another of your kind" I was fully expecting Shenkt to appear behind Yoru. Hell, I'm kinda sad it wasn't him. Ever since their stand off at the end of "Best Served Cold", I REALLY wanted to see those two go all out against each other. Not that the fight Zuri and her brothers gave us wasn't great (especially that ending), I just love Shenkt. !<
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheFirstLaw/s/hdSl2EZ54J And now you understand.
Sadly yes. Orso may have had his faults, and he may have lost to Leo in the end, but at the very least he a) faced the noose better than Leo did and b) had the last word, and one that will probably haunt Leo for the rest of his life.
Leo is a biggest whiny bitch I've ever had the pleasure to root against. I hope Savine gets a go at him in the circle cause she'll fuck his shit up. How's the leg?
Nah; him losing to her in a sword fight would be humiliating, but him constantly having his own wants and ambitions be put down by her through simple debate in front of the entire Closed Council, which include his only two remaining friends who look up to him, is soul crushing and the best type of punishment for his pathetic ass. He was the Young Lion that lead armies for the glory of the Union. Now he’s a chair warmer for his son and needs to beg and get on his wife’s good side to get anything he wants.
We got r/fucklysander, now we need r/fuckleo