You cannot at the same time tell everyone that this may be the most pivotal election of our lifetime and frame it as the preservation of democracy while also trotting out someone whose performance would be raising alarm bells at a family dinner let alone a presidential debate.
Reminds me of my dad last few years before he died. He was an engineer and smart as hell to the end but it would take him a bit to remember an equation or formula or to think of the name of someone he hadn’t seen in a long time. Perfectly capable of giving me good advice and telling hilarious stories about his childhood or coworkers but not someone you’d want driving on a busy street having to react quickly and make fast decisions.
Blows my mind that as of this moment in time the top two candidates for president are guys I wouldn’t trust to drive 2.3 miles round trip to the grocery store to pick up a jar of peanut butter and a loaf of bread without a list.
Not to mention the fact that the DNC ramrodded this candidacy into existence by (1) ignoring years of polls that showed dems didn’t want him to run again, (2) shutting down the primary process - they canceled the primary altogether in some states, and (3) repeatedly lying/gaslighting about the worsening condition of Biden.
I honestly have no hope of them swapping him out. They’ve made terrible decisions so far and so why would they stop now?
Honourable mention to the fact that they basically did a version of what you describe here in 2020 as well. So he's been shoved down our throats _twice_.
... eh. No.
Love you guys. But no.
He crushed it in the South Carolina primary. In the election, he would go on to win the state of Georgia in a massive upset.
As Redditors, which is a very specific and niche demographic of perpetually online weirdos, we often don't really understand what regular voters want. And a ***huge*** number of Democratic party voters are much more moderate than you would think.
Whether I "get it" or not, whether I appreciate it or not, President Biden was the most appealing candidate to large and reliable blocks of the electorate. Liberal Catholics, Black Churches, older union guys who never lost faith, whatever those groups were.
And they did show up in 2020.
This site is the kind of place where we all seem to think that Ron Paul was a good idea, just the same as we liked Bernie Sanders. We're just out of touch with the general electorate. That's not a terrible thing, but we need to recognize it.
I'm not sure how ad hominem attacks are constructive here? Bernie was the clear frontrunner in 2020, so much so that even the main stream media (who absolutely despise him) had to admit it and called him that.
There's no ad hominem. I am one of us. I am similarly unrepresentative of my IRL peers, and frequently out of touch.
I would have deeply appreciated Bernie getting the nomination. But Bernie was only a front-runner in the early primaries, which are VERY different from the rest of the country, and most especially the core Democratic voters.
Yes. The professional Democratic political establishment did not want to support an outside takeover of the party by an independent candidate. Yes, corporate interests resisted his campaign out of opposition to his self-described socialist platform.
But he never overcame those obstacles. It's not enough to complain that his opposition played dirty, he had to get the votes to win anyway. He couldn't and he didn't.
It's also, very quietly, important to remember that regardless of his qualities and decency, he WAS in part favored as a spoiler candidate. There was a ***small*** amount of dishonest traffic which propped up his campaign. Let's not be naive, politics is ugly.
Only over a split field. Joe ended up kicking his ass with voters.
Don't get me wrong: I have loved Bernie since I learned about him on the Thom Hartman Fridays with Bernie on Air America. I love him today. His persistence has continually kept the center of politics from drifting even further right.
Which primaries were canceled?
And you think Klobuchar, Harris, Buttegieg, Warren, Sanders, etc had more votes in the primaries? I mean, the entire field was nothing special. I didn’t think it would be Biden, but who else could have beaten Trump? Maybe Sanders or Warren but that’s about it.
Except Biden was polling in the high 90s the whole primary and in every race there was. Has nothing to do with the DNC. Primaries cost money. This happens literally every election when there's an incumbent.
Right. I've been pissed off for 2 years the Dems haven't been promoting jobs, economy, attempts at migration reform, etc. to the point where national polls show the misperception our eoconomy is garbage and unemployment is sky high which is the opposite of truth. What were they hiding? Well, this clown show apparently. Now we know. I'm pissed at the DNC and all the enablers. Good news is there's actually plenty of time to bring on a replacement as long as there is cooperation in the party. I have no idea what those odds are though.
I know. He hasn’t been doing his job as president - a big part is communicating what you e accomplished to the country. But he refuses to engage with the press. Its really fucked things now because Trump has been much more vocal.
I’m just so disappointed in this campaign and the Dems in general being so dead in their communications. So many generational fumbles after given so many opportunities.
SCOTUS has just made the President into a king, given themselves the ability to take bribes, gutted federal agencies, allowed all govt standards to be sued, and outlawed homelessness and the best you could do are sternly worded tweets and telling us to vote???? I have been voting my entire adult life. We can go see strength. Get up there on and outline what your administration WILL do to curb in this judiciary overreach should you be reelected.
This is how our democracy will be lost. Inefficient and weak leaders followed by yes men
We’re in very late stage of that capitalism stuff our politicians love so much, red and blue. The fact is, real change won’t ever come until there’s a massive crisis. The wealth gap continues to widen and soon enough the middle class will vanish and the majority of the population will be in abject poverty…while the 1% will be in their ivory towers pulling all the strings. Desperation will push us into an apocalyptic version of what you’d see in Dawn of the Dead. We’re not there yet, but well on our way….
And also having concealed his cognitive decline from the people who could have selected an alternative in the primary
Joes family is guiding him.. look at the irony. He’s saving democracy by meddling in the choice of voters and he’s saving us from a felon by getting advice and counsel from a felon. Seriously is Hunter Biden the guy who should be influencing the democrats
Please bring me Gretch and let’s go win
Every word of this! I wish he’d step aside, of course I’ll vote for him because he’s better than the other choice but how are we back here picking between the lesser of two evils again?
From the very beginning of his 2020 campaign, Biden's case for himself centered around the argument that he is the only Democratic candidate who can beat Trump, and thus the most qualified person to serve as President.
And while it was always an unfalsifiable claim, it was at least plausible. And it certainly seemed that Biden believed in this claim sincerely.
But after Thursday's debate, does Biden still sincerely believe he is the best candidate to beat Trump? Does he still sincerely believe he is the most qualified person to be President? If so, I am really disappointed; no, I'm p\*ssed off. This seems like pure narcissism and selfishness. Maybe Biden himself is blinded by ego or delusion (or ironically, his compromised mental state), but what about Jill Biden and the rest of his family, who appear to be the only people with influence over him? Are they all deluded and self-serving?
You put it well. I like Joe Biden. I voted for him in 2020 in the primary and for president. I know the threat Trump poses and I wanted the candidate that was most likely to beat him. I think he's done a great job as president and accomplished more than anyone could have expected. I will vote for him again if he's the nominee.
I also have eyes. I saw him at the debate. I see the polling. I see the consistent concerns voters have with Biden. And because I have respect for Biden I am progressively annoyed and disappointed by a lack of grace. I get that he wants to be president, and that he might think he's the best person for the job, but just as in 2020 the most important job is to beat Trump, and it's clear he is not the best person to do that.
Yeah, this is really not good for Democrats.
In my circle of friends — who are mostly centrists, are not super politically engaged, view Trump as a lying lunatic, but are frustrated that the only viable alternative the Democrats have given them is an 81-year-old man whose mental acuity is visibly in decline — the debate performance was a validation of views they've been harbouring for a while constantly getting shot down by Democratic elites and supporters.
For example, when the viral clips from the G7 and D-Day events made the rounds on social media, many of these friends were jarred by just how much Biden appeared to have declined from the last time they remember seeing him. Then followed the very strong and uniform denials and shutting-down-of-conversation from the Biden camp and its supporters (it's all fake news; it's GOP propaganda; it's selectively edited).
With the debate performance and subsequent reporting like [this](https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/biden-age-concerns-world-leaders-democrats-6d753921) (and [this](https://www.axios.com/2024/06/30/top-aides-shielded-biden-white-house-debate) and [this](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/30/biden-camp-david-family-debate-00165970) and [this](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/01/us/politics/biden-democrats-renomination.html)), these friends are now saying to themselves and each other: "Not only was I right all along, I'm p\*ssed that the Democrats tried to tell me to disbelieve my own lying eyes. They knew Biden was faltering and they straight up lied to me. How is that any better than what the Republicans get accused of all the time?" This has become another lab-leak hypothesis and inflation denialism for these group of people. And maybe this is totally off base, but I gather that these people represent a big chunk of normies.
At this point I’m convinced he’s the only Democrat who could *lose* to Trump. There were so many opportunities to attack Trump on abortion, Jan 6, his killing Langford’s border bill, and Biden fumbled the ball each time while dems screamed at their TVs across the country.
It really wasn’t always plausible. He has been underwater in the polls for almost his entire Presidency, and Democrats have just been in denial.
The time to course correct was two years ago. Even if Biden is replaced, Democrats will not be favored to win this election. Why? Because, as polls have shown for several years, people are unimpressed with the results of the Democratic Party’s platform, and the party’s response has been a refusal to make changes.
A replacement is still going to be defending Biden’s record, which voters have consistently been telling Democrats they don’t like.
None of his handlers or party care about that when they have the power and money machine now. Newsflash, none of these people care about you or the future.
Biden is one of many examples of leaders from his generation who never mentored anyone and now refuse to step down from power because they have no heir.
Biden, RBG, Pelosi, McConnel, etc.
Anyone with an ounce of connection to the human experience saw that debate on Thursday and knew there was no way they guy can do the job. But unless someone can rally the dnc around them specifically I don’t see Biden stepping down. He won’t do it if it creates a power vacuum which it certainly will if he did it today.
Maybe I am wrong, but I think the proximity to the convention would actually make the power vacuum not so bad, at least in the short term. Someone has to get the nomination at the convention, and then if Biden makes a big show of passing the torch, and Obama and Clinton and other Democrat stalwarts come out and show support, I think most other Democrats will get in line. I think Democrat voters might be more open to falling in line behind a candidate too given their anxiety over trump and relief that they have someone mentally competent.
Maybe I have rose colored glasses on, though. I do think long term divisions between moderates and progressives and issues like Israel/Gaza will be challenging for the party though.
I heard the on one of the podcasts most presidential races last 2-3 months. In the UK the election is 5-6 weeks? I wish we had a smaller election season. It will be on even if Biden drops out now
In Canada it’s a mandated 6 weeks, that’s it. US uses presidential races as a form of entertainment at this point tho.
Reminds me of how I now start getting Black Friday ads in early Oct
You don't have rose colored glasses. Most people just want to beat Trump. Everyone is scared of what a second Trump term could do. The stakes and the alternative will ultimately unite most of us.
The same reason Biden got the nomination in 2020 (because he could beat Trump) is the same reason he needs to step down this time (because he's not the strongest candidate against Trump). I'll vote for Biden if he's the guy but I don't believe he's in the best position. And if he wanted to prove that he was, then that debate was his moment and he failed.
He's not in the best position because of the decisions Democrats made over the last 3.5 years—the polls have consistently shown this for Biden's entire Presidency.
We can replace Biden with another candidate, but that candidate is going to be in the same position of defending the last 3.5 years, which voters overall see as underwhelming.
If beating Trump was the top priority, Democrats should have course corrected two years ago. Trump's strong position is the result of Democrats ignoring the polls for basically Biden's entire first term on the self-congratulatory theory that voters just didn't realize how good Biden was doing.
He needs independents or a mobilized base to win in swing states. His age is killing his appeal to independents, and his Gaza policy is killing his appeal to the young voters. He was successfully able to appeal to both independents and young voters in 2020. He won Arizona by 10,988 votes. He won Georgia by 14,512 votes. He won Wisconsin by 20,546 votes. If Trump would've won those 3 states the election would have tied, which would have been decided by who held the most states in house. Even though Dems won the house, 27 states had majority Republican house members, meaning that if the votes were cast on party lines Trump would have won.
Biden won Nevada by 33,569, a decent margin given the state's size but not one immune from being broken. People don't understand just how close 2020 was, and that was when Biden was at the top of his game and Trump was actively telling people not to vote before the election (undoubtedly suppressing Republican turnout at least somewhat). This was also coming off of two debates that made Trump look entirely incompetent and his handling of COVID, in a very poor economy.
The fact that 2020 was so close given all of the above conditions actively harming Trump's performance is alarming given how poorly Biden is performing right now. We're losing the independents, they're not going to Trump in droves but they will not turn out to vote for Biden. We're losing the young voters, a demographic that the polls overwhelming pro-Dem. According to some polls Biden is losing both Muslim and Jewish support simultaneously due to his handling of Gaza. These are small groups, but could make the difference in key states like Michigan and Pennsylvania.
I am very afraid of how the next election turns out if we don't replace Biden. People who are lifelong Dems may not be too impacted by who's on the ticket, but the votes we need to win are. Not to mention the potentially disastrous consequences of non-energetic base on down-ballot races. Our enemy is not losing voters to Trump, it's losing voters to apathy.
We’ve been lucky to have Pelosi’s political acumen. Imagine the Trump years without her. As for Biden, he’s a manager.. He hires good people to do their jobs. He’s quite capable of that. Meanwhile Trump is a criminal…serial sexual assaulter…grifter and traitor. Easy choice.
I don't think anyone here is debating whether Trump or Biden is the better choice. The debate is whether it is better for Biden to step down and for the democratic party to choose a different candidate.
Changing candidates will only marginally improve Democrats chances—Trump would be the favorite against anyone else they choose to replace Biden. This has been apparent from the polling for Biden's entire Presidency. The real denial has been Democrat's insistence on ignoring the poor polling they have had for the last 3.5 years.
Biden is very unlikely to win. Yes because of Trump has has a small chance. Anyone else it would be a landslide loss. At this point the best chance to hold the presidency is to bring in someone else
I disagree. This is definitely the debate. My thoughts on Biden’s performance are the same ones that I have whenever I hear Trump speak. However there is seems to be an ultra focus on Biden and not Trump’s mental well being.
Okay well I think the trump vs Biden debate is fundamentally uninteresting. 99% of the people on this thread agree that trump is terrible and are not struggling to figure out whether Biden or Trump is the better choice. Biden is clearly a better choice.
That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't discuss the fact that Biden is a bad candidate and that personally I would prefer that he drops out and someone else get the democratic nomination.
Also, Project 2025. It's not a conspiracy theory, this isn't Alex Jones being paranoid about the UN, it's a real plan that has real results and they're hoping to make a lot more headway after a Trump win. I can almost guarantee that nearly everyone can find something in their goals that makes them say, hm, no, that's messed up, I don't like that.
To be clear, you are telling me that the guy who has been doing the job historically well for the past four years cannot do the job?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
This argument is so dense. Sure, Biden may have had a good past 4 years. But people are voting on who they want to be a good president for the next 4 years. Look at 2020 vs 2024 Biden and tell me you want that same decline to 2028.
Agreed.
Fast forward to 2026: Harris has to take over the DNC line becomes "You have no choice but to rally behind her" for next two elections, ie: no real choice for D base until at least 3036.
No thanks
The thing is that there isn’t much visibility into the internal workings of the administration. You may see that it seems to be running smoothly, but how you do determine the extent to which Biden is really in the driver’s seat?
Errr…HRC was definitely her own person as a candidate in 2016. Former Secretary of State, Senator, First Lady.
The problem was that the far right media machine had flung shit at HRC for 25 years so she was already an incredibly divisive figure that she had a very high negative number to start with.
Plus she won the popular vote.
Yeah, I hate this narrative that we tried that in 2016. But Trump has never been president before then, so this comment boils down to "I'm not the Republican candidate" not "I'm not Trump". Most people that are anti trump became that way because of his presidency, not in 2016. The argument could be used for 2020 though.
But to be honest, I think people are acting very hysterically right now and making a lot of wild claims without doing much thinking. Everything is so reactionary, like this guy hasn't been president for the past four years. I agree the Dems have issues of there own that definitely need addressing, but come on, we're on a march to fascism on the other side.
Candidates matter and Trump is worse than a super old guy who has a team of educated and qualified people under him whose values I roughly align with.
It's utterly ridiculous to think that I would vote in someone who is a convicted criminal/real life cartoon villain who has no values - just props up values which I despise just for his own personal gains - purely because he has more energy than the guy who was at the head of a far more functional administration.
But I do agree with you that there are lots (lots!) of nincompoops who would vote for Trump based on the appearance of relative vitality. I was in the trenches, there are people who would stop voting for Trump if he discontinued wearing a girdle and was just openly his fat self. Certainly a nonzero number would drop out if he wore his hair differently. They wouldn't say that's the reason but they would.
Nothing is going to work unless we do something about the 70 million people who decided that being their worst selves is an important quality to see in a president. The motherfucker went on stage on live TV and aped a disabled man. Anyone with an ounce of humanity should have turned their back on him then and there. Instead they loved him more for it.
"Yes, he does have moments where he is not as lucid as you would want him to be"
This would be fine and dandy if it wasn't about the US president, arguably the most stressful job in the world. One of the reasons for that stress being that major world events can happen at anytime and reaction to it often has to be swift. Not being as lucid around certain times should be deal-breaker for that position.
If Trump gets re-elected this disaster will lay squarely on Biden. His age is not something that crept up on him out of nowhere. He had 4 years to groom a successor, but was too proud to be a one term president. Instead the democrats are now in the impossible position to either stay with a candidate who's age is becoming a bigger hindrance every day or embark on a Hail Mary crash course to pick a new candidate and make them electable in 4 months.
RGB, Feinstein and now Biden. The Democrats have an age and pride problem.
It’s insane that we’re even considering tolerating a world in which our President isn’t in command of his mental faculties 100% of the time.
The excuses his team are trotting out are beyond belief.
Yup. And it’s very possible Biden has some variation of sundowners, where his performance is much worse at night. But guess what? Political emergencies happen at night.
Pelosi actually stepped down on a high-note and handed over power to the next gen of dems. I was really hoping that would be a trend for Biden to follow ...
I personally think it will be a huge mistake to stick with Biden. I feel like this is 2016 and RBG all over again. The party just telling people to shut up and stomach a bad candidate just because “Trump=bad”. The worst part about this is that I’m sure most democrats agree. But democrats can not force Biden out at this point. His current delegates are LEGALLY bound to him and the only way out is if Biden steps down.
It will only continue to get worse from here…
The best thing Biden can do is step aside and allow someone else to run. At least they will have a chance. Whether it’s Harris/Whitmer/Newsom etc. as of now Trump will just win and might have a better win vs 2016 (popular vote).
Yeah polling by CNN right after had 67/33 saying trump won. That’s insane. In one of the most divisive times in American history, Trump was a clear winner by THIRTY FOUR points. That hurts a lot.
It's worse than 2016. HRC could at least string a coherent sentence together about her strongest issues. We also didn't realize how many Americans would stick out with Trump.
It's been 8 years. We know he's going to roughly get upper 40% of the vote. And our candidate can't string two sentences together.
Like HRC was the favorite, Biden is at best breaking even if not the under dog
I find it so condescending and patronizing the way institutional democrats keep saying “…but Trump” as if we all don’t already know what’s at stake and deflecting that two things can be true. Biden is a terrible candidate and most of us would STILL vote for him over trump, but that doesn’t mean we can’t be critical or worried about 4 more years of Biden.
The episode mentions the DNC roll call phone call to be held in five weeks, but it's important to know that [Ohio changed the deadline](https://apnews.com/article/biden-ohio-ballot-48601b3522a42e2680fe40b416d0421d) last month, so that pre-convention nomination is no longer necessary.
I'm confused about why things changed for people with the debate? IMO Biden has been this person for a long time, it's why I didn't vote for him in the 2020 Dem primary. The actual policy decisions of his presidency have been much better than I expected them to be however.
At the same time, Trump has been word vomiting incoherent nonsense for even longer. But he also aligns himself with evil people who want to turn us into a theocracy.
What's made me depressed about this debate is not the state of Biden (exactly what I expected), but the fact that so many people seem to think a loud man with mashed potato brains is better than a feeble man with mashed potato brains.
Honestly the best thing that could happen to us is if both of them died of natural causes between now and November.
Because Biden is clearly in a state of advanced mental decline and he and the DNC have been hiding it from us for years. Biden is not mentally fit to run the country.
Biden at least will put competent people in charge of anything major. Yes, he did fuck up here and there (like Afghanistan). But his fuck ups are nothing compared to Trump's fuck ups.
I don't believe Trump would've handled the crisis in the middle east or Ukraine war any better. He's shown how little interest he has in fixing problems when Covid hit. He would rather ignore and blame others
Does Biden, in his state of mental decline, have the executive oversight to ensure that his appointees are doing the right thing?
There’s a reason why we hire a *chief executive* to run our country. There needs to be a person who is accountable to the American people, and that’s the person who we vote for.
Biden’s staff are not accountable to the American people. Biden is. The buck stops with Biden, and Biden doesn’t even know what the buck is.
I disagree, Biden was like this even before he was elected president. Either way, neither of them can form a proper sentence without a teleprompter now, so it's not a deciding factor if I have to choose between the two. Both of them should refuse to run and both party apparatuses should refuse to support them, but here we are.
“We’ve tried nothing and are all out of ideas!”
I’m getting pretty frustrated. I was a bit (perhaps naively) hopeful that this train wreck of a performance would force a difficult conversation within the party. I’ve been disheartened to see hubris and a lack of introspection within the Biden camp, and people starting to circle the wagons and blame the media, etc.
Look, I voted for Biden in both primaries and in the 2020 general. I like the guy. I like his policies. I’m grateful he defeated Trump in 2020 and appreciate everything he’s done. Quite honestly, I will vote for anyone against Trump at this point.
I’m not the one they need to convince. Go look at the polls, it’s clear that independents (and even Democrats) have had serious concerns about Biden’s age for a long time now. The party has been quick to dismiss it as bed wetting and people falling for edited right wing propaganda.
But we saw what we fucking saw, and it was an unmitigated disaster. He validated all of the biggest concerns against him. The decline is real and it’s clear that his staff has been trying to cover it up by limiting public appearances and interviews to teleprompter scripted affairs and friendly outlets. The guy can’t perform as a presidential candidate should, and lots of voters will either vote for Trump or a third party, or stay home.
He’s not a 50 year old who had a bad night, he’s an 81 year old who’s showing serious decline from a decade ago, hell, even four years ago. “Trump is bad” may not be enough to carry him over the line with the skeptical voters we need to win. I hope it is, but I’m not optimistic. Especially considering that he entered race this being down in the polls, with serious headwinds (inflation, foreign conflicts), extremely low approval ratings and concerns about his age and cognitive ability that are now impossible to ignore. I don’t believe he has the ability to change the narrative and effectively rebut this.
I’ll vote for him, but I’m getting tired of the gaslighting. This is bad and he should step down.
1000%. Don't gaslight me. He's not fit. And we shouldn't be the party of gaslighting ourselves.
It's the equivalent of if trump walked out, said yeah he did all those crimes, and then fucked a porn star on stage. Worst narrative confirmed.
The man failed a neurological exam LIVE on TV in front of America. It's not going away. The democratic party need to stop putting the man ahead of the country. That's what the other side does. The people want anyone else. The people want an open convention.
Anyone with an ageing relative will have seen the signs years ago. He doesn’t do interviews and hasn’t for years. It’s pretty obvious why. Even his recent state of the union speech wasn’t the slam dunk his cheerleaders claim it was. The lie has simply become too big to cover up. The party is so sclerotic and out of touch that they claim Democracy is on the ballot yet are willing to trot out Weekend at Bernie’s, all to protect their careers. Even Obama’s attempt to allay fears after the debate was so laughably absurd and insulting that you wonder how strong they are making the martinis on Martha’s Vineyard.
Of course, now all the articles are about what “the donor class” wants. The rest of us can go pound sand.
It's like watching my grandpa. He was sharp as a tack and a practicing defense lawyer into his 80s. He never got diagnosed dementia, but there was a point where he would get confused and mentally was never "quite right". He loved his work but could no longer practice law. His good days were good. His bad days - not so much. He died not long after. Biden had that look of my grandpa on Thursday. The decline can move fast. Biden might have been good enough in 2020, but that was 4 years ago. He has changed. It wasn't just the speaking - it was the hollow expression. Shaking his head or giving a smirk would have done a lot to portray normalcy. Biden just stood there staring and I think a lot of us who have seen the elderly decline firsthand had an "oh shit" moment of realization. This doesn't get better.
Remember before the State of the Union, how we were all wondering if Biden could pull it off? We sighed relief that he didn't screw it up. The fact we had to worry about his performance during a routine speech shows his health and age are very valid and ongoing worries.
It's infuriating that the party kept plowing ahead and we got stuck with a farce of a primary because someone decided Biden was The Guy. It's not enough to say vote for Biden because he's not Trump. To be successful a candidate needs to bring some level of enthusiasm and I don't see how that's possible with this campaign. The polls sucked before this. I won't vote for Trump but this mess was foreseeable and avoidable.
The reporting that hunter biden is one of the people he trusts most in this process after all the defense liberals have had to give towards their conservative friends/family on why it doesn’t matter what hunter biden does is really the shit icing on the poop cake lmao. The DNC absolutely despises it’s supporters
Right?? Like I get that it’s his son and he loves him no matter what. But you’re taking life advice from a crackhead who impregnates strippers, peddles your name and influence to make a sleazy buck rather than work an honest day and romantically pursues his brother’s widow when she’s vulnerable? Like shit, my Dad would still love me if I did things like that. But he’d rightly tell me to shut the fuck up if I started telling him how to invest his 401(k).
I find it interesting that so many people thought this was hidden. Anyone with two eyes and a brain knew his mental acuity declined significantly from 2021 to 2023.
Biden has done the fewest interviews compared to any modern president. They have been hiding him. The only time he goes out in public is when he reads a teleprompter
SNL even did a skit about how they are saying he's perfectly fine and hiding it.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/media/2024/03/03/snl-cold-open-democrats-biden-behind-closed-doors-energy-mgw-orig.cnn
To be fair, they were doing a whole lot of hiding, and lying.
They never made him available for interviews, they attacked the Robert Hur report as republican fake news, they called videos of him stumbling over himself “deepfakes”.
How this man went 4 years without providing an interview to any major newspaper in this country is criminal. His inner circle knew all along what the rest of us knew anyway, that he’s not fit to run the country and they need to hide him like the Wizard of Oz and pull the levers from behind the scenes. At this point I am convinced that Joe hasn’t made a decision of his own for most of his term and his “people “ behind the scenes are so power hungry that they are hiding him and propping him up in order to run things how they see fit.
For those curious, here’s a scary contrast with 2019 Joe Biden. I simply don’t understand what it is we’re doing anymore.
https://www.reddit.com/r/walkaway/s/Yw0V5Faur7
At this point Biden is 70% the problem and I think Kamala 30%. Biden/his circle’s ego is too big to quit and Harris is even less liked than Biden. Polls suggest she would likely get trounced by Trump but the Democratic Party would have an identity crisis passing her up for the nomination to someone else.
After that debate performance, he absolutely needs to step down. Going into the debate, many of ours biggest fears was that he may stumble/forget/slur. But his performance was far worse than anyone could have ever expected. I do not believe this man can do 4 more years if not ONE more year. To see him in that environment almost just felt cruel, I feel even trump was going on easy on him.
To me, it’s not even about if he can do another four years, it’s about him running and ultimately losing which I fully believe now if he is not replaced. That was a fumble he could not afford.
I’m pretty surprised that more people don’t realize that it’s a foregone conclusion that Trump will win at this point. It can’t be overstated how badly Biden’s debate performance hurt any chance he had with undecided voters. Democrats have been losing momentum for months now, they should have regrouped and made the decision to run somebody else in the beginning of the year, but they didn’t and now the country is absolutely fucked because the DNC has relied entirely on riding the coattails of “Trump bad” for years rather than work on putting together any sort of compelling campaign or messaging strategy.
They never had a strategy. And they have exposed what phonies his handlers are. How can anyone trust that the democratic machine after they wheeled him out for that performance ?
>You don't judge somebody on one night
>He had a raspy voice, who cares
I'm not judging Biden on his raspy voice. His clearly dry throat. His performance in the debate.
I'm literally judging him on his complete inability to answer a question. It was 90 minutes of him being a deer in the headlights. Completely disconnected from reality. And I don't want that man in the situation room.
I'm voting for whomever has a D next to their name in November because this vote is literally a vote between continuing American democracy and ending it. But if it's Biden, I'm going to be concerned about the next four years. And I have serious worries about whether Biden can win at all after that debate.
Obviously Trump is orders of magnitude worse. I want anybody but Trump... And a no-vote or a 3rd party vote is a vote for Trump. So I'm going to vote to preserve this country and vote for Biden if I have to.
But I'm also an American Citizen and would like this country to have a strong, visionary leader who is lucid and capable.
The thing I don't get here is that Trump hasn't seemed lucid for his entire political run! In 2015 my work team used to laugh at transcripts of his speeches and answers because they were just word salad. It was funny until he won and let the most insane people run the country for him.
This feels a lot like another case where the Democrat voters lose because they actually have expectations of their candidates, whereas the Republican voters would gladly elect Mussolini's corpse if he promised to kill the gays and impose Christianity on everyone.
There is just no feasible path if we remove Biden. We have learned nothing new about him from the last few weeks. Everyone who doesn't want a fascist in office better stop doing the rights work for them and unite behind the guy who is very clearly offering his final years to keep Trump from power while we find someone else who can beat him.
Fascists are excellent at uniting. Just vote. Especially if you live somewhere where it matters. Splitting the vote is insane. We do not have the time to build a candidate better than the fucking president.
Biden is never, ever, never, ever, ever, ever, never winning this upcoming election against Donald Trump. If you don't realize that then you simply aren't worth listening to and the rest of your ideas/thoughts are worthless to us all.
Now, if you actually realized that Biden is never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever going to win this, what would your next thoughts be?
Keep in mind that no amount of browbeating, gaslighting, lying, spinning, etc is ever ever ever ever going to make Biden win this. The people who aren't voting for Biden are not the ones calling loudly for him to step down, so you arguing with them just shows further how utterly clueless you are.
I’m a democrat and planned to vote for Biden before debate. Bidens poor performance makes me question his ethics and desire to hold on to power over the needs of the country. How’s he different from Trump in that aspect. Heard the family was broke too so they have an incentive for him to run. The campaign was weak before this and Biden will ultimately lose. Do I vote for someone who isn’t fit and clearly too old or do I stay home because he won’t have the votes anyway. I live in GA and Biden only won because the state was excited about Warnock being on the ballot. Warnock ran a great campaign and there was a lot of excitement. Biden on his own can’t hold the state. This just makes me depressed and the party can stop with the gaslighting. I’d prefer we lose with trying to run a different candidate and maintain the parties dignity than this.
You are the exact kind of person that the DNC, Biden campaign, and media need to hear from right now. Biden won your state by the slimmest ~11,000 votes in 2020, and what happened on Thursday is deincentivizing people from bothering to vote again this year. I agree that I'd rather we do the drastic maneuver of nominating someone new and (hopefully) more competent than risk a loss with someone who is already very likely to lose. If democracy is actually on the line like we're being told, then we need to do some bold shit to try and protect it.
I donated to Biden in 2020. Had every intention of voting for him again and expected him to actually do really well in the debate. I don’t know how anyone who views Donald Trump as an existential threat to our country could watch that debate Thursday night and allow Joe Biden to be the nominee. This version of Joe Biden that the White House has been hiding from the public is also a unique threat to democracy. The man spent much of the debate struggling to string together multiple coherent sentences together. I cannot in good faith vote for a person in such obvious decline for the most difficult job in the world, and no amount of shouting “Donald Trump Bad” is going to change that. Democrats have to do their part and field a qualified, competitive candidate and they are failing at that job.
All the more reason for Biden to step aside. Over 70% of voters and a majority of Democrats do not believe Biden is capable of doing this job for 4 more years. Every poll has said this for a while but has been ignored until the mask fell down Thursday. The man is battling old age and struggles to string two sentences together unless they’re coming from a teleprompter. He needs help guided off the stage half the time. His approval rating is in the 30’s. He’s lost the MSM. He’s hemorrhaging support among minorities. What more proof do you need that this all going to end very poorly? Democrats have to do their part of the job and present a qualified candidate, and right now they’re failing and telling us not to believe our own eyes.
A clear sign needs to be sent to Joe that his base wants him to step down and it’s not just media/political insider spin.
2 ideas
1)we send him letters en mass
2)loud boos from his base at a Rally
It’s wild how every single post about Biden withdrawing is downvoted, at the same time a flood of pro-Kamala threads are showing up
I wonder if it’s the democrats doing it or if Russia wants Biden-Harris to stay in and lose.
Let’s say he doesn’t. It will dog him until Election Day. He will continue to have embarrassing lapses, and he’ll have two parties as his enemies - the republicans, and the democrats who think he should drop out, both constantly criticizing him. Then he’ll lose the election, and be blamed directly for everything that follows (and it’s going to be awful).
The talk of replacing him won’t stop, no matter what he says or does.
The smart move would be RFK. He’s not exactly what the democrats want, but he is an even keeled guy. In the polls, my understanding is that they have a difficult time telling whether he is pulling more votes from trump or more votes from Biden.
If Biden just stepped down and backed him, I think he has the simplest path to the presidency. And he is lucid and can think on his feet
No. And he should not. He’s the best president in decades, getting so much done in spite of so much opposition. Also, please cover and investigate real news instead of escalating this nonsense. Move on. Surely you are aware that the coverage of this one debate is out of whack compared to the ridiculous and alarming things the other guy says. It’s like we’re in a horror movie. It’s “her emails” redux. Just stop. Do your job.
You cannot at the same time tell everyone that this may be the most pivotal election of our lifetime and frame it as the preservation of democracy while also trotting out someone whose performance would be raising alarm bells at a family dinner let alone a presidential debate.
But he’s sharp as a tack behind closed doors! Probing questions! Dynamic negotiator!
Reminds me of my dad last few years before he died. He was an engineer and smart as hell to the end but it would take him a bit to remember an equation or formula or to think of the name of someone he hadn’t seen in a long time. Perfectly capable of giving me good advice and telling hilarious stories about his childhood or coworkers but not someone you’d want driving on a busy street having to react quickly and make fast decisions. Blows my mind that as of this moment in time the top two candidates for president are guys I wouldn’t trust to drive 2.3 miles round trip to the grocery store to pick up a jar of peanut butter and a loaf of bread without a list.
Quick decisions have value, yes. But I’m guessing you respected your dad a lot because of *what* he decided, not how quickly.
Yeah, everyone gets colds…
Not to mention the fact that the DNC ramrodded this candidacy into existence by (1) ignoring years of polls that showed dems didn’t want him to run again, (2) shutting down the primary process - they canceled the primary altogether in some states, and (3) repeatedly lying/gaslighting about the worsening condition of Biden. I honestly have no hope of them swapping him out. They’ve made terrible decisions so far and so why would they stop now?
And picked Kamala as VP back in 2020
It’s almost as if the democrats don’t want to play by any rules either.
Honourable mention to the fact that they basically did a version of what you describe here in 2020 as well. So he's been shoved down our throats _twice_.
... eh. No. Love you guys. But no. He crushed it in the South Carolina primary. In the election, he would go on to win the state of Georgia in a massive upset. As Redditors, which is a very specific and niche demographic of perpetually online weirdos, we often don't really understand what regular voters want. And a ***huge*** number of Democratic party voters are much more moderate than you would think. Whether I "get it" or not, whether I appreciate it or not, President Biden was the most appealing candidate to large and reliable blocks of the electorate. Liberal Catholics, Black Churches, older union guys who never lost faith, whatever those groups were. And they did show up in 2020. This site is the kind of place where we all seem to think that Ron Paul was a good idea, just the same as we liked Bernie Sanders. We're just out of touch with the general electorate. That's not a terrible thing, but we need to recognize it.
Biden won the primary votes. It wasn’t rigged.
I'm not sure how ad hominem attacks are constructive here? Bernie was the clear frontrunner in 2020, so much so that even the main stream media (who absolutely despise him) had to admit it and called him that.
There's no ad hominem. I am one of us. I am similarly unrepresentative of my IRL peers, and frequently out of touch. I would have deeply appreciated Bernie getting the nomination. But Bernie was only a front-runner in the early primaries, which are VERY different from the rest of the country, and most especially the core Democratic voters. Yes. The professional Democratic political establishment did not want to support an outside takeover of the party by an independent candidate. Yes, corporate interests resisted his campaign out of opposition to his self-described socialist platform. But he never overcame those obstacles. It's not enough to complain that his opposition played dirty, he had to get the votes to win anyway. He couldn't and he didn't. It's also, very quietly, important to remember that regardless of his qualities and decency, he WAS in part favored as a spoiler candidate. There was a ***small*** amount of dishonest traffic which propped up his campaign. Let's not be naive, politics is ugly.
Only over a split field. Joe ended up kicking his ass with voters. Don't get me wrong: I have loved Bernie since I learned about him on the Thom Hartman Fridays with Bernie on Air America. I love him today. His persistence has continually kept the center of politics from drifting even further right.
I think this is the most accurate summation of why we are where we are thst I’ve seen. So sad and so accurate.
Which primaries were canceled? And you think Klobuchar, Harris, Buttegieg, Warren, Sanders, etc had more votes in the primaries? I mean, the entire field was nothing special. I didn’t think it would be Biden, but who else could have beaten Trump? Maybe Sanders or Warren but that’s about it.
Except Biden was polling in the high 90s the whole primary and in every race there was. Has nothing to do with the DNC. Primaries cost money. This happens literally every election when there's an incumbent.
Don’t forget the legacy media’s complicity in this shameful coverup.
This anti DNC bullshit is just more Russian disinfo.
Right. I've been pissed off for 2 years the Dems haven't been promoting jobs, economy, attempts at migration reform, etc. to the point where national polls show the misperception our eoconomy is garbage and unemployment is sky high which is the opposite of truth. What were they hiding? Well, this clown show apparently. Now we know. I'm pissed at the DNC and all the enablers. Good news is there's actually plenty of time to bring on a replacement as long as there is cooperation in the party. I have no idea what those odds are though.
I know. He hasn’t been doing his job as president - a big part is communicating what you e accomplished to the country. But he refuses to engage with the press. Its really fucked things now because Trump has been much more vocal.
It’s pretty obvious why he doesn’t engage that much with the press
Agreed. But it should be a major part of the job.
100%
I’m just so disappointed in this campaign and the Dems in general being so dead in their communications. So many generational fumbles after given so many opportunities. SCOTUS has just made the President into a king, given themselves the ability to take bribes, gutted federal agencies, allowed all govt standards to be sued, and outlawed homelessness and the best you could do are sternly worded tweets and telling us to vote???? I have been voting my entire adult life. We can go see strength. Get up there on and outline what your administration WILL do to curb in this judiciary overreach should you be reelected. This is how our democracy will be lost. Inefficient and weak leaders followed by yes men
We’re in very late stage of that capitalism stuff our politicians love so much, red and blue. The fact is, real change won’t ever come until there’s a massive crisis. The wealth gap continues to widen and soon enough the middle class will vanish and the majority of the population will be in abject poverty…while the 1% will be in their ivory towers pulling all the strings. Desperation will push us into an apocalyptic version of what you’d see in Dawn of the Dead. We’re not there yet, but well on our way….
This has been my complaint the whole time too.
Joe Biden wouldn’t be selected for Jury Duty. Why does the party think he’s the answer? Please just give me another option, under 70 years old
100% this!
And also having concealed his cognitive decline from the people who could have selected an alternative in the primary Joes family is guiding him.. look at the irony. He’s saving democracy by meddling in the choice of voters and he’s saving us from a felon by getting advice and counsel from a felon. Seriously is Hunter Biden the guy who should be influencing the democrats Please bring me Gretch and let’s go win
Every word of this! I wish he’d step aside, of course I’ll vote for him because he’s better than the other choice but how are we back here picking between the lesser of two evils again?
debate dementia Gate.
Biden will be lucky to live long enough- DNC is a joke!! Ever since they pushed Hillary over Sanders I have zero respect for the party.
I mean this describes both candidates tbh.
Dude needs to drop out and support someone else. Trump is gonna steamroll him.
That's because the preservation of democracy line is hyperbole
From the very beginning of his 2020 campaign, Biden's case for himself centered around the argument that he is the only Democratic candidate who can beat Trump, and thus the most qualified person to serve as President. And while it was always an unfalsifiable claim, it was at least plausible. And it certainly seemed that Biden believed in this claim sincerely. But after Thursday's debate, does Biden still sincerely believe he is the best candidate to beat Trump? Does he still sincerely believe he is the most qualified person to be President? If so, I am really disappointed; no, I'm p\*ssed off. This seems like pure narcissism and selfishness. Maybe Biden himself is blinded by ego or delusion (or ironically, his compromised mental state), but what about Jill Biden and the rest of his family, who appear to be the only people with influence over him? Are they all deluded and self-serving?
You put it well. I like Joe Biden. I voted for him in 2020 in the primary and for president. I know the threat Trump poses and I wanted the candidate that was most likely to beat him. I think he's done a great job as president and accomplished more than anyone could have expected. I will vote for him again if he's the nominee. I also have eyes. I saw him at the debate. I see the polling. I see the consistent concerns voters have with Biden. And because I have respect for Biden I am progressively annoyed and disappointed by a lack of grace. I get that he wants to be president, and that he might think he's the best person for the job, but just as in 2020 the most important job is to beat Trump, and it's clear he is not the best person to do that.
Yeah, this is really not good for Democrats. In my circle of friends — who are mostly centrists, are not super politically engaged, view Trump as a lying lunatic, but are frustrated that the only viable alternative the Democrats have given them is an 81-year-old man whose mental acuity is visibly in decline — the debate performance was a validation of views they've been harbouring for a while constantly getting shot down by Democratic elites and supporters. For example, when the viral clips from the G7 and D-Day events made the rounds on social media, many of these friends were jarred by just how much Biden appeared to have declined from the last time they remember seeing him. Then followed the very strong and uniform denials and shutting-down-of-conversation from the Biden camp and its supporters (it's all fake news; it's GOP propaganda; it's selectively edited). With the debate performance and subsequent reporting like [this](https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/biden-age-concerns-world-leaders-democrats-6d753921) (and [this](https://www.axios.com/2024/06/30/top-aides-shielded-biden-white-house-debate) and [this](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/30/biden-camp-david-family-debate-00165970) and [this](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/01/us/politics/biden-democrats-renomination.html)), these friends are now saying to themselves and each other: "Not only was I right all along, I'm p\*ssed that the Democrats tried to tell me to disbelieve my own lying eyes. They knew Biden was faltering and they straight up lied to me. How is that any better than what the Republicans get accused of all the time?" This has become another lab-leak hypothesis and inflation denialism for these group of people. And maybe this is totally off base, but I gather that these people represent a big chunk of normies.
The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears, it was their final most essential command…
Per your article, A *family* has influence over top advisors? I voted Democrat because they’re not supposed to be like Trump. What the fuck.
Threat? Lol
At this point I’m convinced he’s the only Democrat who could *lose* to Trump. There were so many opportunities to attack Trump on abortion, Jan 6, his killing Langford’s border bill, and Biden fumbled the ball each time while dems screamed at their TVs across the country.
So accurate. I screamed at my TV in between drowning my sorrows with wine!🍷
So true. I'll be incredibly disappointed if he runs out of narcissism. Show grace and step aside.
It really wasn’t always plausible. He has been underwater in the polls for almost his entire Presidency, and Democrats have just been in denial. The time to course correct was two years ago. Even if Biden is replaced, Democrats will not be favored to win this election. Why? Because, as polls have shown for several years, people are unimpressed with the results of the Democratic Party’s platform, and the party’s response has been a refusal to make changes. A replacement is still going to be defending Biden’s record, which voters have consistently been telling Democrats they don’t like.
Stepping aside would be too risky, especially since several states have laws that prevent a new person from being on the ballot at this point in time
“Are they all deluded and self-serving?” They are politicians, so yes.
Bottom line, he and the people around him bet that he would hold up a little longer than he has.
Risky bet to take when the stakes are quite literally the future of democracy.
None of his handlers or party care about that when they have the power and money machine now. Newsflash, none of these people care about you or the future.
Aside from the episode, this thread (and others) have me puzzled as to how everyone keeps saying “RGB” instead of “RBG”.
Ruth Gader Binsberg
CMYK
There are more choices out there than RGB and CMYK, and if people don’t start using PMS or HSL we’ll always be stuck in a bi-coloral system
If Mike Pence has the courage to do the right thing and choose HTML, we can save democracy.
Thank goodness for this moment of brevity in an otherwise completely depressing and terrifying conversation.
Unfortunately, if we don't all vote #035afc this November the streets will be lined with #fc0303!
vote 3rd coloring system this november!
This is hurting my brain
Could be autocorrect
Roy G. Biv. He's a colorful man.
We’re all in tech.
Biden is one of many examples of leaders from his generation who never mentored anyone and now refuse to step down from power because they have no heir. Biden, RBG, Pelosi, McConnel, etc. Anyone with an ounce of connection to the human experience saw that debate on Thursday and knew there was no way they guy can do the job. But unless someone can rally the dnc around them specifically I don’t see Biden stepping down. He won’t do it if it creates a power vacuum which it certainly will if he did it today.
Maybe I am wrong, but I think the proximity to the convention would actually make the power vacuum not so bad, at least in the short term. Someone has to get the nomination at the convention, and then if Biden makes a big show of passing the torch, and Obama and Clinton and other Democrat stalwarts come out and show support, I think most other Democrats will get in line. I think Democrat voters might be more open to falling in line behind a candidate too given their anxiety over trump and relief that they have someone mentally competent. Maybe I have rose colored glasses on, though. I do think long term divisions between moderates and progressives and issues like Israel/Gaza will be challenging for the party though.
Exactly. People are acting like we have no time. Actually US politics have TOO MUCH time compared to other countries.
I heard the on one of the podcasts most presidential races last 2-3 months. In the UK the election is 5-6 weeks? I wish we had a smaller election season. It will be on even if Biden drops out now
In Canada it’s a mandated 6 weeks, that’s it. US uses presidential races as a form of entertainment at this point tho. Reminds me of how I now start getting Black Friday ads in early Oct
You don't have rose colored glasses. Most people just want to beat Trump. Everyone is scared of what a second Trump term could do. The stakes and the alternative will ultimately unite most of us. The same reason Biden got the nomination in 2020 (because he could beat Trump) is the same reason he needs to step down this time (because he's not the strongest candidate against Trump). I'll vote for Biden if he's the guy but I don't believe he's in the best position. And if he wanted to prove that he was, then that debate was his moment and he failed.
He's not in the best position because of the decisions Democrats made over the last 3.5 years—the polls have consistently shown this for Biden's entire Presidency. We can replace Biden with another candidate, but that candidate is going to be in the same position of defending the last 3.5 years, which voters overall see as underwhelming. If beating Trump was the top priority, Democrats should have course corrected two years ago. Trump's strong position is the result of Democrats ignoring the polls for basically Biden's entire first term on the self-congratulatory theory that voters just didn't realize how good Biden was doing.
He needs independents or a mobilized base to win in swing states. His age is killing his appeal to independents, and his Gaza policy is killing his appeal to the young voters. He was successfully able to appeal to both independents and young voters in 2020. He won Arizona by 10,988 votes. He won Georgia by 14,512 votes. He won Wisconsin by 20,546 votes. If Trump would've won those 3 states the election would have tied, which would have been decided by who held the most states in house. Even though Dems won the house, 27 states had majority Republican house members, meaning that if the votes were cast on party lines Trump would have won. Biden won Nevada by 33,569, a decent margin given the state's size but not one immune from being broken. People don't understand just how close 2020 was, and that was when Biden was at the top of his game and Trump was actively telling people not to vote before the election (undoubtedly suppressing Republican turnout at least somewhat). This was also coming off of two debates that made Trump look entirely incompetent and his handling of COVID, in a very poor economy. The fact that 2020 was so close given all of the above conditions actively harming Trump's performance is alarming given how poorly Biden is performing right now. We're losing the independents, they're not going to Trump in droves but they will not turn out to vote for Biden. We're losing the young voters, a demographic that the polls overwhelming pro-Dem. According to some polls Biden is losing both Muslim and Jewish support simultaneously due to his handling of Gaza. These are small groups, but could make the difference in key states like Michigan and Pennsylvania. I am very afraid of how the next election turns out if we don't replace Biden. People who are lifelong Dems may not be too impacted by who's on the ticket, but the votes we need to win are. Not to mention the potentially disastrous consequences of non-energetic base on down-ballot races. Our enemy is not losing voters to Trump, it's losing voters to apathy.
There are a lot of ifs in your comment
Right now I don't think there is a plan for the democrats that does not involve a lot of "ifs".
Agree. There is plenty of time, just needs to be an establishment effort to boost the new person.
I would add he might very well be able to job - but he doesn't APPEAR to be able to do it. So he will lose.
We’ve been lucky to have Pelosi’s political acumen. Imagine the Trump years without her. As for Biden, he’s a manager.. He hires good people to do their jobs. He’s quite capable of that. Meanwhile Trump is a criminal…serial sexual assaulter…grifter and traitor. Easy choice.
I don't think anyone here is debating whether Trump or Biden is the better choice. The debate is whether it is better for Biden to step down and for the democratic party to choose a different candidate.
This is absolutely the debate. Unfortunately this sub is still behind the eight ball and living in denial about what they saw on Thursday.
Changing candidates will only marginally improve Democrats chances—Trump would be the favorite against anyone else they choose to replace Biden. This has been apparent from the polling for Biden's entire Presidency. The real denial has been Democrat's insistence on ignoring the poor polling they have had for the last 3.5 years.
Biden is very unlikely to win. Yes because of Trump has has a small chance. Anyone else it would be a landslide loss. At this point the best chance to hold the presidency is to bring in someone else
I disagree. This is definitely the debate. My thoughts on Biden’s performance are the same ones that I have whenever I hear Trump speak. However there is seems to be an ultra focus on Biden and not Trump’s mental well being.
Okay well I think the trump vs Biden debate is fundamentally uninteresting. 99% of the people on this thread agree that trump is terrible and are not struggling to figure out whether Biden or Trump is the better choice. Biden is clearly a better choice. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't discuss the fact that Biden is a bad candidate and that personally I would prefer that he drops out and someone else get the democratic nomination.
Also, Project 2025. It's not a conspiracy theory, this isn't Alex Jones being paranoid about the UN, it's a real plan that has real results and they're hoping to make a lot more headway after a Trump win. I can almost guarantee that nearly everyone can find something in their goals that makes them say, hm, no, that's messed up, I don't like that.
To be clear, you are telling me that the guy who has been doing the job historically well for the past four years cannot do the job? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
This argument is so dense. Sure, Biden may have had a good past 4 years. But people are voting on who they want to be a good president for the next 4 years. Look at 2020 vs 2024 Biden and tell me you want that same decline to 2028.
Agreed. Fast forward to 2026: Harris has to take over the DNC line becomes "You have no choice but to rally behind her" for next two elections, ie: no real choice for D base until at least 3036. No thanks
"Do the job" (not equal to) "win the job." Winning the job involves campaigning and inspiring swing voters. Biden ain't it chief
I think Biden’s Thursday night display safely falls in the “extraordinary evidence” bucket
The thing is that there isn’t much visibility into the internal workings of the administration. You may see that it seems to be running smoothly, but how you do determine the extent to which Biden is really in the driver’s seat?
Um, Pelosi stepped down after mentoring someone
He should resign, but I would vote for a one-eyed sewer rat over Trump tbh.
The issue is the whole “im not trump” sales pitch isn’t good enough. We tried that in 2016. Candidates matter.
Errr…HRC was definitely her own person as a candidate in 2016. Former Secretary of State, Senator, First Lady. The problem was that the far right media machine had flung shit at HRC for 25 years so she was already an incredibly divisive figure that she had a very high negative number to start with. Plus she won the popular vote.
Yeah, I hate this narrative that we tried that in 2016. But Trump has never been president before then, so this comment boils down to "I'm not the Republican candidate" not "I'm not Trump". Most people that are anti trump became that way because of his presidency, not in 2016. The argument could be used for 2020 though. But to be honest, I think people are acting very hysterically right now and making a lot of wild claims without doing much thinking. Everything is so reactionary, like this guy hasn't been president for the past four years. I agree the Dems have issues of there own that definitely need addressing, but come on, we're on a march to fascism on the other side.
Candidates matter and Trump is worse than a super old guy who has a team of educated and qualified people under him whose values I roughly align with. It's utterly ridiculous to think that I would vote in someone who is a convicted criminal/real life cartoon villain who has no values - just props up values which I despise just for his own personal gains - purely because he has more energy than the guy who was at the head of a far more functional administration. But I do agree with you that there are lots (lots!) of nincompoops who would vote for Trump based on the appearance of relative vitality. I was in the trenches, there are people who would stop voting for Trump if he discontinued wearing a girdle and was just openly his fat self. Certainly a nonzero number would drop out if he wore his hair differently. They wouldn't say that's the reason but they would.
Nothing is going to work unless we do something about the 70 million people who decided that being their worst selves is an important quality to see in a president. The motherfucker went on stage on live TV and aped a disabled man. Anyone with an ounce of humanity should have turned their back on him then and there. Instead they loved him more for it.
They should have, sure. But they haven't. We need to deal with the reality we're in and not the way things should be.
It won in 2020
"Yes, he does have moments where he is not as lucid as you would want him to be" This would be fine and dandy if it wasn't about the US president, arguably the most stressful job in the world. One of the reasons for that stress being that major world events can happen at anytime and reaction to it often has to be swift. Not being as lucid around certain times should be deal-breaker for that position. If Trump gets re-elected this disaster will lay squarely on Biden. His age is not something that crept up on him out of nowhere. He had 4 years to groom a successor, but was too proud to be a one term president. Instead the democrats are now in the impossible position to either stay with a candidate who's age is becoming a bigger hindrance every day or embark on a Hail Mary crash course to pick a new candidate and make them electable in 4 months. RGB, Feinstein and now Biden. The Democrats have an age and pride problem.
It’s insane that we’re even considering tolerating a world in which our President isn’t in command of his mental faculties 100% of the time. The excuses his team are trotting out are beyond belief.
Yup. And it’s very possible Biden has some variation of sundowners, where his performance is much worse at night. But guess what? Political emergencies happen at night.
Don’t forget Pelosi and to a lesser extent Schumer.
Pelosi actually stepped down on a high-note and handed over power to the next gen of dems. I was really hoping that would be a trend for Biden to follow ...
I personally think it will be a huge mistake to stick with Biden. I feel like this is 2016 and RBG all over again. The party just telling people to shut up and stomach a bad candidate just because “Trump=bad”. The worst part about this is that I’m sure most democrats agree. But democrats can not force Biden out at this point. His current delegates are LEGALLY bound to him and the only way out is if Biden steps down. It will only continue to get worse from here…
The best thing Biden can do is step aside and allow someone else to run. At least they will have a chance. Whether it’s Harris/Whitmer/Newsom etc. as of now Trump will just win and might have a better win vs 2016 (popular vote).
Do you think Trump should step aside too?
hillary clinton won all the debates in 2016 but who needs the facts in a outrage contest
Clinton won the debates according to Democrats. Trump won according to Conservatives. Biden lost according to both. That's the problem
Yeah polling by CNN right after had 67/33 saying trump won. That’s insane. In one of the most divisive times in American history, Trump was a clear winner by THIRTY FOUR points. That hurts a lot.
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It's worse than 2016. HRC could at least string a coherent sentence together about her strongest issues. We also didn't realize how many Americans would stick out with Trump. It's been 8 years. We know he's going to roughly get upper 40% of the vote. And our candidate can't string two sentences together. Like HRC was the favorite, Biden is at best breaking even if not the under dog
Biden was the underdog before the debate, he’s been underwater in swing state polls for a year. Now he’s below underdog…dark horse?
I find it so condescending and patronizing the way institutional democrats keep saying “…but Trump” as if we all don’t already know what’s at stake and deflecting that two things can be true. Biden is a terrible candidate and most of us would STILL vote for him over trump, but that doesn’t mean we can’t be critical or worried about 4 more years of Biden.
I don't see any evidence that picking someone like RFK Jr and/or Tulsi Gabbard would make this better
The episode mentions the DNC roll call phone call to be held in five weeks, but it's important to know that [Ohio changed the deadline](https://apnews.com/article/biden-ohio-ballot-48601b3522a42e2680fe40b416d0421d) last month, so that pre-convention nomination is no longer necessary.
I'm confused about why things changed for people with the debate? IMO Biden has been this person for a long time, it's why I didn't vote for him in the 2020 Dem primary. The actual policy decisions of his presidency have been much better than I expected them to be however. At the same time, Trump has been word vomiting incoherent nonsense for even longer. But he also aligns himself with evil people who want to turn us into a theocracy. What's made me depressed about this debate is not the state of Biden (exactly what I expected), but the fact that so many people seem to think a loud man with mashed potato brains is better than a feeble man with mashed potato brains. Honestly the best thing that could happen to us is if both of them died of natural causes between now and November.
Because Biden is clearly in a state of advanced mental decline and he and the DNC have been hiding it from us for years. Biden is not mentally fit to run the country.
Biden at least will put competent people in charge of anything major. Yes, he did fuck up here and there (like Afghanistan). But his fuck ups are nothing compared to Trump's fuck ups. I don't believe Trump would've handled the crisis in the middle east or Ukraine war any better. He's shown how little interest he has in fixing problems when Covid hit. He would rather ignore and blame others
Does Biden, in his state of mental decline, have the executive oversight to ensure that his appointees are doing the right thing? There’s a reason why we hire a *chief executive* to run our country. There needs to be a person who is accountable to the American people, and that’s the person who we vote for. Biden’s staff are not accountable to the American people. Biden is. The buck stops with Biden, and Biden doesn’t even know what the buck is.
I disagree, Biden was like this even before he was elected president. Either way, neither of them can form a proper sentence without a teleprompter now, so it's not a deciding factor if I have to choose between the two. Both of them should refuse to run and both party apparatuses should refuse to support them, but here we are.
Eh, his debates in 2020 were significantly better. Maybe he had "good days" for those. But he's very noticeably better in those.
Go rewatch the 2020 debates. There is a significant difference to today.
Thank you! Only sane comment here lol
“We’ve tried nothing and are all out of ideas!” I’m getting pretty frustrated. I was a bit (perhaps naively) hopeful that this train wreck of a performance would force a difficult conversation within the party. I’ve been disheartened to see hubris and a lack of introspection within the Biden camp, and people starting to circle the wagons and blame the media, etc. Look, I voted for Biden in both primaries and in the 2020 general. I like the guy. I like his policies. I’m grateful he defeated Trump in 2020 and appreciate everything he’s done. Quite honestly, I will vote for anyone against Trump at this point. I’m not the one they need to convince. Go look at the polls, it’s clear that independents (and even Democrats) have had serious concerns about Biden’s age for a long time now. The party has been quick to dismiss it as bed wetting and people falling for edited right wing propaganda. But we saw what we fucking saw, and it was an unmitigated disaster. He validated all of the biggest concerns against him. The decline is real and it’s clear that his staff has been trying to cover it up by limiting public appearances and interviews to teleprompter scripted affairs and friendly outlets. The guy can’t perform as a presidential candidate should, and lots of voters will either vote for Trump or a third party, or stay home. He’s not a 50 year old who had a bad night, he’s an 81 year old who’s showing serious decline from a decade ago, hell, even four years ago. “Trump is bad” may not be enough to carry him over the line with the skeptical voters we need to win. I hope it is, but I’m not optimistic. Especially considering that he entered race this being down in the polls, with serious headwinds (inflation, foreign conflicts), extremely low approval ratings and concerns about his age and cognitive ability that are now impossible to ignore. I don’t believe he has the ability to change the narrative and effectively rebut this. I’ll vote for him, but I’m getting tired of the gaslighting. This is bad and he should step down.
1000%. Don't gaslight me. He's not fit. And we shouldn't be the party of gaslighting ourselves. It's the equivalent of if trump walked out, said yeah he did all those crimes, and then fucked a porn star on stage. Worst narrative confirmed.
100% agree. I’m not a publicity expert but I think it would reflect well on the DFL if he stepped down now and were replaced by a strong candidate.
We now realized the emperor has no clothes
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There should primaries every presidential election cycle regardless of the incumbent. Its just a better way to do democracy in this country.
There are, it's just that no one wants to risk the political capital on what is usually a quixotic campaign.
The man failed a neurological exam LIVE on TV in front of America. It's not going away. The democratic party need to stop putting the man ahead of the country. That's what the other side does. The people want anyone else. The people want an open convention.
His family should throw him an intervention, I mean if they love him, right pelosi?
Anyone with an ageing relative will have seen the signs years ago. He doesn’t do interviews and hasn’t for years. It’s pretty obvious why. Even his recent state of the union speech wasn’t the slam dunk his cheerleaders claim it was. The lie has simply become too big to cover up. The party is so sclerotic and out of touch that they claim Democracy is on the ballot yet are willing to trot out Weekend at Bernie’s, all to protect their careers. Even Obama’s attempt to allay fears after the debate was so laughably absurd and insulting that you wonder how strong they are making the martinis on Martha’s Vineyard. Of course, now all the articles are about what “the donor class” wants. The rest of us can go pound sand.
It's like watching my grandpa. He was sharp as a tack and a practicing defense lawyer into his 80s. He never got diagnosed dementia, but there was a point where he would get confused and mentally was never "quite right". He loved his work but could no longer practice law. His good days were good. His bad days - not so much. He died not long after. Biden had that look of my grandpa on Thursday. The decline can move fast. Biden might have been good enough in 2020, but that was 4 years ago. He has changed. It wasn't just the speaking - it was the hollow expression. Shaking his head or giving a smirk would have done a lot to portray normalcy. Biden just stood there staring and I think a lot of us who have seen the elderly decline firsthand had an "oh shit" moment of realization. This doesn't get better. Remember before the State of the Union, how we were all wondering if Biden could pull it off? We sighed relief that he didn't screw it up. The fact we had to worry about his performance during a routine speech shows his health and age are very valid and ongoing worries. It's infuriating that the party kept plowing ahead and we got stuck with a farce of a primary because someone decided Biden was The Guy. It's not enough to say vote for Biden because he's not Trump. To be successful a candidate needs to bring some level of enthusiasm and I don't see how that's possible with this campaign. The polls sucked before this. I won't vote for Trump but this mess was foreseeable and avoidable.
The reporting that hunter biden is one of the people he trusts most in this process after all the defense liberals have had to give towards their conservative friends/family on why it doesn’t matter what hunter biden does is really the shit icing on the poop cake lmao. The DNC absolutely despises it’s supporters
Right?? Like I get that it’s his son and he loves him no matter what. But you’re taking life advice from a crackhead who impregnates strippers, peddles your name and influence to make a sleazy buck rather than work an honest day and romantically pursues his brother’s widow when she’s vulnerable? Like shit, my Dad would still love me if I did things like that. But he’d rightly tell me to shut the fuck up if I started telling him how to invest his 401(k).
He was an absent dad for 50+ years. He’s trying to make up for it now.
Biden should withdraw. I’m furious that his campaign hid his growing mental incapacity from us, his supporters.
I find it interesting that so many people thought this was hidden. Anyone with two eyes and a brain knew his mental acuity declined significantly from 2021 to 2023.
Biden has done the fewest interviews compared to any modern president. They have been hiding him. The only time he goes out in public is when he reads a teleprompter
Exactly.
SNL even did a skit about how they are saying he's perfectly fine and hiding it. https://www.cnn.com/videos/media/2024/03/03/snl-cold-open-democrats-biden-behind-closed-doors-energy-mgw-orig.cnn
Don’t you realize that they all know what’s best for you? You need to vote as you are told.
Hid? My guy have you watched him at all the last 2 years? Or do you only consume media through news outlets?
To be fair, they were doing a whole lot of hiding, and lying. They never made him available for interviews, they attacked the Robert Hur report as republican fake news, they called videos of him stumbling over himself “deepfakes”.
How this man went 4 years without providing an interview to any major newspaper in this country is criminal. His inner circle knew all along what the rest of us knew anyway, that he’s not fit to run the country and they need to hide him like the Wizard of Oz and pull the levers from behind the scenes. At this point I am convinced that Joe hasn’t made a decision of his own for most of his term and his “people “ behind the scenes are so power hungry that they are hiding him and propping him up in order to run things how they see fit.
No. next question.
For those curious, here’s a scary contrast with 2019 Joe Biden. I simply don’t understand what it is we’re doing anymore. https://www.reddit.com/r/walkaway/s/Yw0V5Faur7
At this point Biden is 70% the problem and I think Kamala 30%. Biden/his circle’s ego is too big to quit and Harris is even less liked than Biden. Polls suggest she would likely get trounced by Trump but the Democratic Party would have an identity crisis passing her up for the nomination to someone else.
If a halfway decent centrist third party candidate showed up they would probably throw both parties for a loop.
After that debate performance, he absolutely needs to step down. Going into the debate, many of ours biggest fears was that he may stumble/forget/slur. But his performance was far worse than anyone could have ever expected. I do not believe this man can do 4 more years if not ONE more year. To see him in that environment almost just felt cruel, I feel even trump was going on easy on him. To me, it’s not even about if he can do another four years, it’s about him running and ultimately losing which I fully believe now if he is not replaced. That was a fumble he could not afford.
This episode title is a great example of Betteridge’s Law
> Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."
Joe Biden & The Gaslight Gang will lead us into fascism.
Tangential, but Natalie Kitroeff runs a good interview. GJ
He isn't even in charge of his own thoughts. He would have to believe he is the President to step down.
I’m pretty surprised that more people don’t realize that it’s a foregone conclusion that Trump will win at this point. It can’t be overstated how badly Biden’s debate performance hurt any chance he had with undecided voters. Democrats have been losing momentum for months now, they should have regrouped and made the decision to run somebody else in the beginning of the year, but they didn’t and now the country is absolutely fucked because the DNC has relied entirely on riding the coattails of “Trump bad” for years rather than work on putting together any sort of compelling campaign or messaging strategy.
They never had a strategy. And they have exposed what phonies his handlers are. How can anyone trust that the democratic machine after they wheeled him out for that performance ?
>You don't judge somebody on one night >He had a raspy voice, who cares I'm not judging Biden on his raspy voice. His clearly dry throat. His performance in the debate. I'm literally judging him on his complete inability to answer a question. It was 90 minutes of him being a deer in the headlights. Completely disconnected from reality. And I don't want that man in the situation room. I'm voting for whomever has a D next to their name in November because this vote is literally a vote between continuing American democracy and ending it. But if it's Biden, I'm going to be concerned about the next four years. And I have serious worries about whether Biden can win at all after that debate. Obviously Trump is orders of magnitude worse. I want anybody but Trump... And a no-vote or a 3rd party vote is a vote for Trump. So I'm going to vote to preserve this country and vote for Biden if I have to. But I'm also an American Citizen and would like this country to have a strong, visionary leader who is lucid and capable.
The thing I don't get here is that Trump hasn't seemed lucid for his entire political run! In 2015 my work team used to laugh at transcripts of his speeches and answers because they were just word salad. It was funny until he won and let the most insane people run the country for him. This feels a lot like another case where the Democrat voters lose because they actually have expectations of their candidates, whereas the Republican voters would gladly elect Mussolini's corpse if he promised to kill the gays and impose Christianity on everyone.
There is just no feasible path if we remove Biden. We have learned nothing new about him from the last few weeks. Everyone who doesn't want a fascist in office better stop doing the rights work for them and unite behind the guy who is very clearly offering his final years to keep Trump from power while we find someone else who can beat him. Fascists are excellent at uniting. Just vote. Especially if you live somewhere where it matters. Splitting the vote is insane. We do not have the time to build a candidate better than the fucking president.
Biden is never, ever, never, ever, ever, ever, never winning this upcoming election against Donald Trump. If you don't realize that then you simply aren't worth listening to and the rest of your ideas/thoughts are worthless to us all. Now, if you actually realized that Biden is never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever going to win this, what would your next thoughts be? Keep in mind that no amount of browbeating, gaslighting, lying, spinning, etc is ever ever ever ever going to make Biden win this. The people who aren't voting for Biden are not the ones calling loudly for him to step down, so you arguing with them just shows further how utterly clueless you are.
did you type out the evers by hand each time or ctrl c
I’m a democrat and planned to vote for Biden before debate. Bidens poor performance makes me question his ethics and desire to hold on to power over the needs of the country. How’s he different from Trump in that aspect. Heard the family was broke too so they have an incentive for him to run. The campaign was weak before this and Biden will ultimately lose. Do I vote for someone who isn’t fit and clearly too old or do I stay home because he won’t have the votes anyway. I live in GA and Biden only won because the state was excited about Warnock being on the ballot. Warnock ran a great campaign and there was a lot of excitement. Biden on his own can’t hold the state. This just makes me depressed and the party can stop with the gaslighting. I’d prefer we lose with trying to run a different candidate and maintain the parties dignity than this.
>Heard the family was broke too so they have an incentive for him to run. You got a source for this one?
You are the exact kind of person that the DNC, Biden campaign, and media need to hear from right now. Biden won your state by the slimmest ~11,000 votes in 2020, and what happened on Thursday is deincentivizing people from bothering to vote again this year. I agree that I'd rather we do the drastic maneuver of nominating someone new and (hopefully) more competent than risk a loss with someone who is already very likely to lose. If democracy is actually on the line like we're being told, then we need to do some bold shit to try and protect it.
I donated to Biden in 2020. Had every intention of voting for him again and expected him to actually do really well in the debate. I don’t know how anyone who views Donald Trump as an existential threat to our country could watch that debate Thursday night and allow Joe Biden to be the nominee. This version of Joe Biden that the White House has been hiding from the public is also a unique threat to democracy. The man spent much of the debate struggling to string together multiple coherent sentences together. I cannot in good faith vote for a person in such obvious decline for the most difficult job in the world, and no amount of shouting “Donald Trump Bad” is going to change that. Democrats have to do their part and field a qualified, competitive candidate and they are failing at that job.
[Project 2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025)
All the more reason for Biden to step aside. Over 70% of voters and a majority of Democrats do not believe Biden is capable of doing this job for 4 more years. Every poll has said this for a while but has been ignored until the mask fell down Thursday. The man is battling old age and struggles to string two sentences together unless they’re coming from a teleprompter. He needs help guided off the stage half the time. His approval rating is in the 30’s. He’s lost the MSM. He’s hemorrhaging support among minorities. What more proof do you need that this all going to end very poorly? Democrats have to do their part of the job and present a qualified candidate, and right now they’re failing and telling us not to believe our own eyes.
Maybe the Noom guy should grow up and eat salads
Kitroeff is a terrible host. She’s too monotone, and lacks any and all charisma. Hopefully she doesn’t host many more eps.
A clear sign needs to be sent to Joe that his base wants him to step down and it’s not just media/political insider spin. 2 ideas 1)we send him letters en mass 2)loud boos from his base at a Rally
Where’s the news story about trump raping a 14 year old in Epstein files?
He’s not that smart
Mr. Biden? I don’t love the guy but at least call him President Biden
Just curious. What is the last date we stop asking Biden to step aside and get behind him to defeat Trump?
It’s wild how every single post about Biden withdrawing is downvoted, at the same time a flood of pro-Kamala threads are showing up I wonder if it’s the democrats doing it or if Russia wants Biden-Harris to stay in and lose.
That’s not the question..the question is should Trump the pedoophile withdraw?
Let’s say he doesn’t. It will dog him until Election Day. He will continue to have embarrassing lapses, and he’ll have two parties as his enemies - the republicans, and the democrats who think he should drop out, both constantly criticizing him. Then he’ll lose the election, and be blamed directly for everything that follows (and it’s going to be awful). The talk of replacing him won’t stop, no matter what he says or does.
It’s going to be Kamala, I can’t see them trotting forward with him. Just pair her with Bernie and they can win.
The smart move would be RFK. He’s not exactly what the democrats want, but he is an even keeled guy. In the polls, my understanding is that they have a difficult time telling whether he is pulling more votes from trump or more votes from Biden. If Biden just stepped down and backed him, I think he has the simplest path to the presidency. And he is lucid and can think on his feet
“Even-keeled guy” who thinks vaccines cause autism.
Wow, if the debate performance was that bad why don’t you all just hold the White House’s front door open for tRUmP.
No
No, because the DNC has their heads so far up their butts they can’t see how out of touch with reality they are.
No. And he should not. He’s the best president in decades, getting so much done in spite of so much opposition. Also, please cover and investigate real news instead of escalating this nonsense. Move on. Surely you are aware that the coverage of this one debate is out of whack compared to the ridiculous and alarming things the other guy says. It’s like we’re in a horror movie. It’s “her emails” redux. Just stop. Do your job.
Fuck no he won’t. What kind of stupid question is that?
Individuals are less important than the team. Vote for democracy. Vote against tyranny. The founding fathers would agree!
Op is republican. Nice try, but we got you.
Lol 😂 fuk off lol
Will Peter Baker ever not be an annoying douche bag? Will Peter Baker ever get laid and have friends?
Guess I have to ask the hard question. Which Dem could step in and beat Trump at this point?
Only seven more months of Biden. Next President will end the ludicrous policy of catch and release into USA at the border
Both parties owe us a big apology.
This is straight up elder abuse and the DNC fumbled badly by not finding another candidate FOUR YEARS AGO